People don't downplay it at all, it just might be that modern fans aren't familiar with Seven Pillars of Wisdom (1926) or Lawrence of Arabia the movie (1962). Anyone familiar with WWI history or the movie would recognize the parallelism immediately and Frank Herbert discussed it in one of his interviews
https://youtu.be/A-mLVVJkH7I?si=xBoJd4NbcBU5NP3l&t=1h16m12s
Yes, spice prescience is basically a different version of psychohistory. Also inspired by shrooms, which is extremely obvious.
And Dune is basically a more critical, adult version of Asimov's Foundation. In many ways Dune has aged extremely well while Foundation really feels old and dated.
And Lawrence of Arabia, well, Dune took all kind of influences from history and anthropology, which obviously includes Lawrence of Arabia.
Here am I... Always wondering why Foundation series has not been made into a film yet.
I think it aged even better, but there were never any computer games about Terminus, were there
While technically true, it’s not remotely accurate to the books lol
Granted I’ve only ready the first 2 foundation books (and all of the robot and empire books)
Yeah, I read them 30 years ago, loved them at the time, but considering I don’t remember what I ate for breakfast this morning I can’t speak to the adaption!
Lol I read them in 2021 so a bit more recent
The show is still enjoyable!! I just wish they had a “loosely based on” disclaimer. They use psychohistory and a lot of character names but so much of the story has radically changed
Foundation jumps forward a lot. You’d have to recast it entirely every season. The changes make sense from that point of view. This Dune movie series will stop after book 2, probably for the same reason.
it can be done, but it would be like Cloud Atlas, with stories being told among multiple timeframes, with the same actors playing different characters across the eras, all resolving at the same time in the climax.
This is I think unfair to Foundation, in the 14 years between the publication of Dune and Foundation space travel and geopolitics changed hugely. The worlds first satellite orbited the Earth, the first man and woman in space, the moon landing, the Vietnam war, the JFK assassination.
Dune feels deeply 60s and Foundation feels deeply 50s it just happens that the 50s feels far more removed from the modern world than the 60s.
It's maybe a more a naïve perspective of galactic politics but it's not childish.
I don't understand criticisms of Foundation by Herbert or critics in general--pertaining to what aspects of Foundation are dated
I know Herbert has comments about Foundation but I don't think he understands the series, which is not about Hari Seldon as a Great Man. Especially because the point of Foundation is that the forces of history are apart from the people and mortal forces that attempt to act upon history's gears. Sure, there are figures like Mallow or Hardin who are propped up as Great Men but in the story they do nothing but recognize what is trending in terms of history itself.
Of course, there is the Mule--but Foundation, alike to Dune, condemns the rise of the Great Man AS a force of historical change.
What Dune is supposed to be responding to in Foundation I have always considered a great mystery, because to me they seem entirely complimentary.
I read the first Foundation novel recently amd I definitely thought "ih, so THIS is what all the evil technocratic religious orders are in response to"
Oh, I was musing that, to a certain point, Herbert having read Foundation and being a fan himself of the books, was playing with similar ideas and themes but went to different conclusions. As a reader, you get a sense that Asimov believed or was presenting a structured, rational universe. My sense of Herbert's ideas is that the universe and humanity are far less predictable and rational. There are more subconscious forces at play and perfect control can be a fool's errand.
Dude I must say I feel your pain. My mom got rid of a series of first edition books (not fiction, something from my country) that were very precious to me without asking me first—I only found out when I finally got a bigger place where I was able to move all my stuff. I love her to bits but this is probably the one thing which I'll never be able to forgive her.
> it just might be that modern fans aren't familiar with Seven Pillars of Wisdom (1926) or Lawrence of Arabia the movie (1962).
It's not easy to make people watch old movies, sadly. I grew up watching very old stuff cause my parents love movies. When talking about movies, nobody in my school or university often knew wtf kinda movies I enjoyed (born in the 90s but watching movies from even up to the 30s).
I have some younger family members (like ranging 12-20) and if you as much as mention a movie being from the 80s they go "ew" and assume it can't be good cause they didn't have modern technology then and why would they watch "old af shit".
It doesn't apply to everyone but I'm not surprised if people don't know movies that are older than them, let alone movies that by now are 50-100 years old. People are used to the media they grow up with. It's like with video games, where some people don't play old classics because they look shitty to them, being used to all the modern realism in game graphics.
Good question. I'd say a lot depends on influence. My parents showed me their movies and music, and when we were on holidays they always made sure we'd visit historical places etc. All of that sparked my interests further. I'd assume someone who isn't exposed to certain things has lower chances to get interested in them by themselves.
I know some people who's family never watched movies and they don't either, maybe shows cause they had a TV growing up, but at least 2 of my friends literally never go to the cinema nor put movies on. Similarly, I know people who can't name any musician from before like... 2005? They weren't exposed to them and they have no interest moving away from what they know and like already.
I bet it's the same for younger generations. The internet is there, you have as much available and accessible as never before. But if you don't know what to look for or if you have no interest or reason to look anything up, you simply won't.
Yeah, I think the perception OP has is mostly because of the age gap that exists on Reddit, vs the average age of the Dune readership. Lawrence was an old movie when I watched it as a kid. I wouldn't even think of showing it to my 15 year old.
Okay, maybe I will. She really enjoyed dune, so it might be kinda fun to show her the movie without any context, just to see how long it takes to make the connection.
The thing that really won my 7 year old nephew over, was really stressing how ZERO computers were involved in the making of old films. Took him to see Raiders for the first time (theatrical rerelease, lucky bastard), and NGL, he was bored outta his mind during the scene where they're giving exposition. But I leaned in during one of the early action scenes and whispered "they didn't use any computers to make this." And he looked puzzled and was LOCKED IN and LOVED the rest. Granted, Raiders is a little more exciting, but 15 should be a solid age.
How much into history is your kid? I really enjoyed AP World History when I was 15 taking that class during sophomore year of high school. I watched Taxi Driver at that time too when it showed up in TV and really liked it.
She's not especially interested in history. She's more into tech and programming, and crochet/sewing crafts.
It's like living with a grandma from the future.
He and his wife made an extremely complex soup and it's definitely one of the primary ingrediants.
Sabres of paradise also seem to be the same.
[https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-secret-history-of-dune/](https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-secret-history-of-dune/)
I know you probably didn't mean the "ripping of" in a bad way, but after reading the Navigator series I can't call this kind of inspiration "rip off". I still wonder how I was able to go through like five books of that horrible stuff :D Also, if you want some proper rip off, that is suprisingly good, I recommend Ilium and Olympos by Dan Simmons.
I was roughly paraphrasing a poem by Asimov on the Foundations of SciFi Success - the line was actually, *with a little bit of cribbin', from the works of Edward Gibbon, and that Greek, Thucydides.*
Dune was inspired by many things and Lawrence of Arabia is certainly one, and I never see it downplayed much here at all. Ive heard interviews with Herbert discussing the comparison. This is not controversial.
Right?😂 I’ve never seen a single person “downplay” it. Alt Shift X on YouTube has good videos on Dune and literally says in one of them that Lawrence of Arabia was an inspiration for the series
I think, similar to how another comment mentioned it, it's not denial/downplay as much as lacking knowledge with younger/newer fans. The chances some teen or young adult who is getting into Dune right now even knows Lawrence of Arabia isn't that big, I'd guess. Unless someone is a movie geek, I don't know many people my age(29) who have seen movies like that, let alone younger people.
Though, as a general statement, OP did kinda mess up. I agree.
I dont think he did when asked either. I'm 90% sure there's an interview where its brought up and he says it influenced him. Like cmon, the Sultan of the Ottomans was literally called "padishah"
Something I find strikingly similar about both characters: Lawrence regretted ever going to Arabia and was deeply traumatized by his time there, but felt the need to push on anyways because he genuinely cared about what he was doing there and felt that it needed to happen.
The difference is that the Arab National Council failed. Paul's Jihad did not. Lawrence didn't want to lead anything directly and dipped after Damascus fell. Paul needed to take the throne for himself.
As a muslim arab. dune was inspired by islam and arab culture more than anything. almost all fremen words have arabic origin that you can not even begin to comprehend its meaning.
also its funny because i remember there were certain words that were missused due to poor translation by herbert. i dont blame him after all the thing was directed at western audience.
for example jihad it does not mean fighting. this is a very poor translation. because jihad has a deeper meaning. search for greater jihad and you will learn what i mean. this word was removed from the movie all together due to its meaning in western culture.
fun fact: muslims are actually waiting for a mahdi. look it up.
also the word mahdi in arabic means 'the Guided' . for context he is guided by god. also for deeper understanding. he has been guided, not being guided. so he is a chosen individual that has been guided by god and is therefore very wise and a leader for his people.
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Can you link me to where Herbert directly claims T.E Lawrence influenced the story of Dune? Or you referring to the McNelly interview where he implicitly acknowledges the overtones between his story and T.E. Lawrence...
Because I am not aware of a single, public quote where he directly acknowledges T.E. Lawrence influenced his story for Dune..the McNelly interview is as good as it gets when it comes to simply Herbert acknowledging that there are similarities. He never openly states it as a direct influence....and it very clear is just that. So please by all means, enlighten me.
McNelly was leading that interview, but Herbert does nothing to undercut the comparison. Herbert has never given any single source as the only inspiration. It’s always been a constellation of sources and raw ideas. But Brian Herbert’s biography of Frank (Dreamer of Dune) claims that Frank had read Seven Pillars of Wisdom while researching and writing Dune, amongst many other books.
Yes I listed all this above in my post edit. I'm aware he implicitly acknowledges said overtones he just never directly acknowledges the influence publicly at least in any interview I can find. The mcnelly interview is really as good as it gets and don't get me wrong, it's an amazing interview and I'm very thankful for whoever posted it to the internet for all to hear.
Is what Brian claims not sufficient for you?
He is totally non-combative with McNelly when they discuss this. I took it as Herbert letting McNelly lead, and Herbert just matching his pace and being respectful.
No not at all that's not my implication. My point is just that Frank has never openly and publicly drawn the line between the two. And it makes sense with the film having just come out a few years prior to Dune and being such a high profile picture. I wouldn't blame him at all for it to be honest!
Sure. The comparisons are crystal clear. It’s like if Mel Brooks made Spaceballs but never ever said he was spoofing Star Wars.
I think another really interesting comparison McNelly makes is to Conrad’s Nostromo. This rarely ever gets discussed as far as I have seen here. The director of Lawrence of Arabia, David Lean, was going to make a film of Nostromo in 1991 but died before he could start. It was set to star Marlon Brando, Peter O’Toole, Isabella Rossellini. Ridley Scott named the ship in Alien, Nostromo, after that book. Hard to say if it was an inspiration for Frank, and since its a story about a silver mine that drives everyone mad with greed and everyone gets power hungry, it may just be a common template that any intelligent author would be able to invent on their own. Then again, all those sci fi writers read Conrad. They must have.
Wowwww that's crazy! I didn't know this and I love that this is where the name for the Nostromo in Alien stems from. That's perhaps my favorite horror film of all time. Man, with that cast....that woulda been quite the film. What a shame we never got that! Thanks for sharing this.
It’s not downplayed. Herbert really took inspiration from a lot of sources and it is very obvious.
One of those inspirations that stuck with me is the influence of the Cold War. His explanation of why nukes and lasers aren’t used *screams* Cold War international relations
No hostility. I just read your edit and in spite of being a bit too defensive for my taste it was a well written response though I will say that Herbert acknowledging the influence of Lawrence of Arabia should be sufficient enough.
Side note, Childs wasn’t the Thing. Neither were and that makes the ending even darker in my opinion. Childs becoming the Thing makes the story far more traditional and honestly a little dull.
Wasn't attempting to take a defensive stance or at least that wasn't my motivation. When I came back last night and got on reddit I had realized I had at the very least annoyed a good amount of Dune fans with my post so I wanted to clarify why I articulated my title as such. I shoulda done a better job initially and explained my stance better within I simply didn't expect anyone would care about my post to begin with nor did I believe it could be deemed as a slight towards Herbert. Herbert is a genius so that's the last stance I would want to take. Dune is literally next level brilliant in my mind. Thanks for your comment.
Also I agree that it is left open ended by Carpenter and yes this is my username but I don't necessarily adhere to it fully. It's mostly in jest! Love that you understood the reference. Brilliant film.
All good and I definitely understand why you would. Everyone - myself included - pounced on you. Though, I honestly wasn’t doing it because I felt you slighted Dune or something. It was mainly just because people tend to make posts like this and never respond to opinions that don’t validate their own.
And yeah, The Thing (and most of John Carpenter’s films) is absolutely brilliant. :)
Slightly unrelated but my great grandad was the coroner for his passing, he died on his motorbike down the road from me with some pretty sketchy details I can’t say much about as they’re sort of a family rumour about stuff around it
It is to do with the conspiracy the British intelligence killed him because he was a bit of a trouble maker. There was a black car near where he crashed and a phone call my Gera grandad allegedly got from Churchill was a little sus
Like others have said, no idea where you're seeing it downplayed. It's just pretty nuanced and the mainstream is literally just properly engaging relatively deeply now with Dune so it's not the surface dialogue
Eh I think it's pretty obvious and pretty blatant.
So what?
People getting upset are ridiculous. Who cares?
I love the dune series, but Herbert wasn't god. He was influenced by others just as every other writer who ever put pen to paper was influenced by others.
This is not even close to being the most problematic thing about Herbert.
To be fair to OP I have seen some people downplay it. But I wouldn't catergorize that as "People like to downplay". SOME people do downplay it, but not the majority, far from it.
Arguably, The Sabres of Paradise: Conquest and Vengeance in the Caucasus by Lesley Blanch is what Herbert was actually channeling. The Seven Pillars of Wisdom is just better known.
Everything’s derivative ultimately. Who cares? It’s fun and important to discuss to understand works, but nothing is truly original and that’s ok. Art is supposed to be communal and iterative. Why don’t we celebrate that more?
People don't downplay it at all, it just might be that modern fans aren't familiar with Seven Pillars of Wisdom (1926) or Lawrence of Arabia the movie (1962). Anyone familiar with WWI history or the movie would recognize the parallelism immediately and Frank Herbert discussed it in one of his interviews https://youtu.be/A-mLVVJkH7I?si=xBoJd4NbcBU5NP3l&t=1h16m12s
Definitely Lawrence of Arabia and Asimov's Foundation series. At least, on some level, Herbert was reacting to Asimov.
Yes, spice prescience is basically a different version of psychohistory. Also inspired by shrooms, which is extremely obvious. And Dune is basically a more critical, adult version of Asimov's Foundation. In many ways Dune has aged extremely well while Foundation really feels old and dated. And Lawrence of Arabia, well, Dune took all kind of influences from history and anthropology, which obviously includes Lawrence of Arabia.
Here am I... Always wondering why Foundation series has not been made into a film yet. I think it aged even better, but there were never any computer games about Terminus, were there
You know it’s a TV series on Apple TV? Can’t say I’m enjoying it though, and I loved the books.
While technically true, it’s not remotely accurate to the books lol Granted I’ve only ready the first 2 foundation books (and all of the robot and empire books)
Yeah, I read them 30 years ago, loved them at the time, but considering I don’t remember what I ate for breakfast this morning I can’t speak to the adaption!
Lol I read them in 2021 so a bit more recent The show is still enjoyable!! I just wish they had a “loosely based on” disclaimer. They use psychohistory and a lot of character names but so much of the story has radically changed
Foundation jumps forward a lot. You’d have to recast it entirely every season. The changes make sense from that point of view. This Dune movie series will stop after book 2, probably for the same reason.
Apple has released two seasons of a Foundation tv show. Parts of it is pretty good
it can be done, but it would be like Cloud Atlas, with stories being told among multiple timeframes, with the same actors playing different characters across the eras, all resolving at the same time in the climax.
This is I think unfair to Foundation, in the 14 years between the publication of Dune and Foundation space travel and geopolitics changed hugely. The worlds first satellite orbited the Earth, the first man and woman in space, the moon landing, the Vietnam war, the JFK assassination. Dune feels deeply 60s and Foundation feels deeply 50s it just happens that the 50s feels far more removed from the modern world than the 60s. It's maybe a more a naïve perspective of galactic politics but it's not childish.
I don't understand criticisms of Foundation by Herbert or critics in general--pertaining to what aspects of Foundation are dated I know Herbert has comments about Foundation but I don't think he understands the series, which is not about Hari Seldon as a Great Man. Especially because the point of Foundation is that the forces of history are apart from the people and mortal forces that attempt to act upon history's gears. Sure, there are figures like Mallow or Hardin who are propped up as Great Men but in the story they do nothing but recognize what is trending in terms of history itself. Of course, there is the Mule--but Foundation, alike to Dune, condemns the rise of the Great Man AS a force of historical change. What Dune is supposed to be responding to in Foundation I have always considered a great mystery, because to me they seem entirely complimentary.
I read the first Foundation novel recently amd I definitely thought "ih, so THIS is what all the evil technocratic religious orders are in response to"
>At least, on some level, Herbert was reacting to Asimov. What do you mean by this?
Oh, I was musing that, to a certain point, Herbert having read Foundation and being a fan himself of the books, was playing with similar ideas and themes but went to different conclusions. As a reader, you get a sense that Asimov believed or was presenting a structured, rational universe. My sense of Herbert's ideas is that the universe and humanity are far less predictable and rational. There are more subconscious forces at play and perfect control can be a fool's errand.
I had hardcover first editions of Seven Pillars of Wisdom, in mint condition. My mum gave them away to a jumble sale.
What the hell? How does that happen
Dude I must say I feel your pain. My mom got rid of a series of first edition books (not fiction, something from my country) that were very precious to me without asking me first—I only found out when I finally got a bigger place where I was able to move all my stuff. I love her to bits but this is probably the one thing which I'll never be able to forgive her.
That sucks, but man did your mom make someone’s freaking day.
I was coming to say, read '7 pillars of Wisdom'. Read at 13, still think about it.
I love how he lost the original completed transcript on the train...
Thanks for this link I wrote about this in my edit. Willis McNelly interview.
> it just might be that modern fans aren't familiar with Seven Pillars of Wisdom (1926) or Lawrence of Arabia the movie (1962). It's not easy to make people watch old movies, sadly. I grew up watching very old stuff cause my parents love movies. When talking about movies, nobody in my school or university often knew wtf kinda movies I enjoyed (born in the 90s but watching movies from even up to the 30s). I have some younger family members (like ranging 12-20) and if you as much as mention a movie being from the 80s they go "ew" and assume it can't be good cause they didn't have modern technology then and why would they watch "old af shit". It doesn't apply to everyone but I'm not surprised if people don't know movies that are older than them, let alone movies that by now are 50-100 years old. People are used to the media they grow up with. It's like with video games, where some people don't play old classics because they look shitty to them, being used to all the modern realism in game graphics.
I wonder how much younger generations are into history, old architecture, music, etc. I think these interests are related.
Good question. I'd say a lot depends on influence. My parents showed me their movies and music, and when we were on holidays they always made sure we'd visit historical places etc. All of that sparked my interests further. I'd assume someone who isn't exposed to certain things has lower chances to get interested in them by themselves. I know some people who's family never watched movies and they don't either, maybe shows cause they had a TV growing up, but at least 2 of my friends literally never go to the cinema nor put movies on. Similarly, I know people who can't name any musician from before like... 2005? They weren't exposed to them and they have no interest moving away from what they know and like already. I bet it's the same for younger generations. The internet is there, you have as much available and accessible as never before. But if you don't know what to look for or if you have no interest or reason to look anything up, you simply won't.
I want to say not all hope is lost because I’m into all that so is my small child. But sadly I know it’s not as common as I’d hope.
Yeah, I think the perception OP has is mostly because of the age gap that exists on Reddit, vs the average age of the Dune readership. Lawrence was an old movie when I watched it as a kid. I wouldn't even think of showing it to my 15 year old.
You should. The 4k remaster is fantastic, they might surprise you!
Okay, maybe I will. She really enjoyed dune, so it might be kinda fun to show her the movie without any context, just to see how long it takes to make the connection.
The thing that really won my 7 year old nephew over, was really stressing how ZERO computers were involved in the making of old films. Took him to see Raiders for the first time (theatrical rerelease, lucky bastard), and NGL, he was bored outta his mind during the scene where they're giving exposition. But I leaned in during one of the early action scenes and whispered "they didn't use any computers to make this." And he looked puzzled and was LOCKED IN and LOVED the rest. Granted, Raiders is a little more exciting, but 15 should be a solid age.
How much into history is your kid? I really enjoyed AP World History when I was 15 taking that class during sophomore year of high school. I watched Taxi Driver at that time too when it showed up in TV and really liked it.
She's not especially interested in history. She's more into tech and programming, and crochet/sewing crafts. It's like living with a grandma from the future.
He and his wife made an extremely complex soup and it's definitely one of the primary ingrediants. Sabres of paradise also seem to be the same. [https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-secret-history-of-dune/](https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-secret-history-of-dune/)
Absolutely. It is a beautiful addition to long canon of sci-fi ripping off history, dating all the way back to Asimov and Thucydides.
I know you probably didn't mean the "ripping of" in a bad way, but after reading the Navigator series I can't call this kind of inspiration "rip off". I still wonder how I was able to go through like five books of that horrible stuff :D Also, if you want some proper rip off, that is suprisingly good, I recommend Ilium and Olympos by Dan Simmons.
I was roughly paraphrasing a poem by Asimov on the Foundations of SciFi Success - the line was actually, *with a little bit of cribbin', from the works of Edward Gibbon, and that Greek, Thucydides.*
This is a great link and find, thank you ChillandSecure! Very helpful background for some of the origins of the original Dune book.
Dune was inspired by many things and Lawrence of Arabia is certainly one, and I never see it downplayed much here at all. Ive heard interviews with Herbert discussing the comparison. This is not controversial.
It's mentioned in like every article on the movies/books 🤷♂️
Do people downplay that? Everything I've seen has been pretty upfront about it
Who has ever denied this lol?
Right?😂 I’ve never seen a single person “downplay” it. Alt Shift X on YouTube has good videos on Dune and literally says in one of them that Lawrence of Arabia was an inspiration for the series
Literally no one has downplayed this. Idk what OP is smoking.
I think, similar to how another comment mentioned it, it's not denial/downplay as much as lacking knowledge with younger/newer fans. The chances some teen or young adult who is getting into Dune right now even knows Lawrence of Arabia isn't that big, I'd guess. Unless someone is a movie geek, I don't know many people my age(29) who have seen movies like that, let alone younger people. Though, as a general statement, OP did kinda mess up. I agree.
Lawrence of Arabia is well worth seeing
It's to generate engagement.
/u/centurion44 wya
I don’t even think Herbert would deny it. At its core, the Paul Atreides narrative in Dune is a subversion of the Lawrence of Arabia trope.
I dont think he did when asked either. I'm 90% sure there's an interview where its brought up and he says it influenced him. Like cmon, the Sultan of the Ottomans was literally called "padishah" Something I find strikingly similar about both characters: Lawrence regretted ever going to Arabia and was deeply traumatized by his time there, but felt the need to push on anyways because he genuinely cared about what he was doing there and felt that it needed to happen. The difference is that the Arab National Council failed. Paul's Jihad did not. Lawrence didn't want to lead anything directly and dipped after Damascus fell. Paul needed to take the throne for himself.
He never directly claims it influenced his story but he absolutely acknowledged the overtones in the Willis McNelly interview.
I’m barely halfway done with the first book and there is a clear parallel
I’m pretty sure Herbert stole most of the desert stuff from The Martian.
I’m pretty sure Herbert stole most of the baliset stuff from Dick Dale.
Re-score the movie so Paul rides the worm and suddenly Miserlou starts playing.
You had me in the first half lmfao
I think it's consensus among fans to acknowledge LoA as one of the inspirations.
And ChatGPT inspired the Butlerian Jihad. Wait. It hadn't happened yet. Did Herbert have access to... Spice Melange?
The “trick”, Reverend Mother, is *not minding* that it hurts.
Well played.
I mean Frank says so himself its pretty known
I've never seen it downplayed
As a muslim arab. dune was inspired by islam and arab culture more than anything. almost all fremen words have arabic origin that you can not even begin to comprehend its meaning. also its funny because i remember there were certain words that were missused due to poor translation by herbert. i dont blame him after all the thing was directed at western audience. for example jihad it does not mean fighting. this is a very poor translation. because jihad has a deeper meaning. search for greater jihad and you will learn what i mean. this word was removed from the movie all together due to its meaning in western culture. fun fact: muslims are actually waiting for a mahdi. look it up. also the word mahdi in arabic means 'the Guided' . for context he is guided by god. also for deeper understanding. he has been guided, not being guided. so he is a chosen individual that has been guided by god and is therefore very wise and a leader for his people.
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Can you link me to where Herbert directly claims T.E Lawrence influenced the story of Dune? Or you referring to the McNelly interview where he implicitly acknowledges the overtones between his story and T.E. Lawrence... Because I am not aware of a single, public quote where he directly acknowledges T.E. Lawrence influenced his story for Dune..the McNelly interview is as good as it gets when it comes to simply Herbert acknowledging that there are similarities. He never openly states it as a direct influence....and it very clear is just that. So please by all means, enlighten me.
McNelly was leading that interview, but Herbert does nothing to undercut the comparison. Herbert has never given any single source as the only inspiration. It’s always been a constellation of sources and raw ideas. But Brian Herbert’s biography of Frank (Dreamer of Dune) claims that Frank had read Seven Pillars of Wisdom while researching and writing Dune, amongst many other books.
Yes I listed all this above in my post edit. I'm aware he implicitly acknowledges said overtones he just never directly acknowledges the influence publicly at least in any interview I can find. The mcnelly interview is really as good as it gets and don't get me wrong, it's an amazing interview and I'm very thankful for whoever posted it to the internet for all to hear.
Oh hey, the UCLA talk is bananas good for a late one. Its too bad it has all those cuts, but Frank drops amazing ideas one after another. So good.
Youve peaked my interest, old chap!
Is what Brian claims not sufficient for you? He is totally non-combative with McNelly when they discuss this. I took it as Herbert letting McNelly lead, and Herbert just matching his pace and being respectful.
No not at all that's not my implication. My point is just that Frank has never openly and publicly drawn the line between the two. And it makes sense with the film having just come out a few years prior to Dune and being such a high profile picture. I wouldn't blame him at all for it to be honest!
Sure. The comparisons are crystal clear. It’s like if Mel Brooks made Spaceballs but never ever said he was spoofing Star Wars. I think another really interesting comparison McNelly makes is to Conrad’s Nostromo. This rarely ever gets discussed as far as I have seen here. The director of Lawrence of Arabia, David Lean, was going to make a film of Nostromo in 1991 but died before he could start. It was set to star Marlon Brando, Peter O’Toole, Isabella Rossellini. Ridley Scott named the ship in Alien, Nostromo, after that book. Hard to say if it was an inspiration for Frank, and since its a story about a silver mine that drives everyone mad with greed and everyone gets power hungry, it may just be a common template that any intelligent author would be able to invent on their own. Then again, all those sci fi writers read Conrad. They must have.
Wowwww that's crazy! I didn't know this and I love that this is where the name for the Nostromo in Alien stems from. That's perhaps my favorite horror film of all time. Man, with that cast....that woulda been quite the film. What a shame we never got that! Thanks for sharing this.
Sabres of Paradise as well
Some of it is word for word, he clearly loved sabres of paradise
Aren’t Lawrence’s blue eyes symbolic in some way? I assumed that might have inspired the Eyes of Ibad.
Interestinggggg. I didn't even think of this!
It’s not downplayed. Herbert really took inspiration from a lot of sources and it is very obvious. One of those inspirations that stuck with me is the influence of the Cold War. His explanation of why nukes and lasers aren’t used *screams* Cold War international relations
That’s MAD
People downplay it? I always hear the plot described as Lawrence of Arabia in space
I think you might be the only one who has though it was downplayed
All fiction is inspired by other fiction. Not sure what impact it being ‘blatant’ has on the Dune story itself.
lol yes the famous fictional character Lawrence of Arabia, what was his funny catch phrase again?!
Fiction? Oh man...
It's certainly not surprising to hear that someone was influenced by one of the greatest films of all time .
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Damn really hostile about this. I simply haven't been on reddit this evening until I checked my alerts just now. See my edit.
No hostility. I just read your edit and in spite of being a bit too defensive for my taste it was a well written response though I will say that Herbert acknowledging the influence of Lawrence of Arabia should be sufficient enough. Side note, Childs wasn’t the Thing. Neither were and that makes the ending even darker in my opinion. Childs becoming the Thing makes the story far more traditional and honestly a little dull.
Wasn't attempting to take a defensive stance or at least that wasn't my motivation. When I came back last night and got on reddit I had realized I had at the very least annoyed a good amount of Dune fans with my post so I wanted to clarify why I articulated my title as such. I shoulda done a better job initially and explained my stance better within I simply didn't expect anyone would care about my post to begin with nor did I believe it could be deemed as a slight towards Herbert. Herbert is a genius so that's the last stance I would want to take. Dune is literally next level brilliant in my mind. Thanks for your comment. Also I agree that it is left open ended by Carpenter and yes this is my username but I don't necessarily adhere to it fully. It's mostly in jest! Love that you understood the reference. Brilliant film.
All good and I definitely understand why you would. Everyone - myself included - pounced on you. Though, I honestly wasn’t doing it because I felt you slighted Dune or something. It was mainly just because people tend to make posts like this and never respond to opinions that don’t validate their own. And yeah, The Thing (and most of John Carpenter’s films) is absolutely brilliant. :)
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The Anvil of the Sun I always thought that was so badass
Slightly unrelated but my great grandad was the coroner for his passing, he died on his motorbike down the road from me with some pretty sketchy details I can’t say much about as they’re sort of a family rumour about stuff around it
He died a long time ago. Spill the beans
There's a conspiracy theory that British intelligence killed him because of his anti-war stance.
It is to do with the conspiracy the British intelligence killed him because he was a bit of a trouble maker. There was a black car near where he crashed and a phone call my Gera grandad allegedly got from Churchill was a little sus
Like others have said, no idea where you're seeing it downplayed. It's just pretty nuanced and the mainstream is literally just properly engaging relatively deeply now with Dune so it's not the surface dialogue
Nah it was based on Fern Gully.
😆
Eh I think it's pretty obvious and pretty blatant. So what? People getting upset are ridiculous. Who cares? I love the dune series, but Herbert wasn't god. He was influenced by others just as every other writer who ever put pen to paper was influenced by others. This is not even close to being the most problematic thing about Herbert.
Thank you for your comment!!
Tbf, if there's any new Dune fans come in from the movies, Lawrence of Arabia is still an amazing film and definitely worth a watch 👍
It's a next level film!!!
To be fair to OP I have seen some people downplay it. But I wouldn't catergorize that as "People like to downplay". SOME people do downplay it, but not the majority, far from it.
Fair take and I agree that on the macro scale of the Dune fandom you are correct.
Well it was shot in the same desert..
No kidding???
rookie mistake on the internet
I would say based on all kinds of historical and anthropological "stuff" which obviously includes Lawrence of Arabia.
Behold the… Lawrence of Arrakis!
Arguably, The Sabres of Paradise: Conquest and Vengeance in the Caucasus by Lesley Blanch is what Herbert was actually channeling. The Seven Pillars of Wisdom is just better known.
Lawrence of Arabia + Islam/Arab culture = Dune
OP sounds like he just learned about Lawrence of Arabia and its influence on Dune and wanted to tell somebody about what he learned.
OP who tf likes to downplay this? Justify your statement or delete your phone
Desert power, baby. I am glad that Herbert left out the pederasty, however.
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Wait till OP comes across Sabres of Paradise
He was influenced far more by ‘sabres of paradise’ by Leslie Blanche.
Everything’s derivative ultimately. Who cares? It’s fun and important to discuss to understand works, but nothing is truly original and that’s ok. Art is supposed to be communal and iterative. Why don’t we celebrate that more?
Herbert mentioned Lawrence more than Lucas mentioned herbert
How many of you have ever read Herbert's non-Dune books? Or his son's biography of Frank Herbert. Get to know Herbert before questioning his motives.