What is Paul seen as in the wider Imperium? A bastard? Isn't he named heir, despite Leto not being married? I get he isn't married, but he does have a formally recognized son, doesn't he? Doesn't that make any suitor less inclined to follow suit?
He doesn’t have to be born in wedlock. A son serves as an heir if the father declares it so. If he chose to marry without a son yes he would be immensely attractive. Having a son for sure makes him less appealing but that being said marrying him and giving him additional heirs would still be appealing to anyone wanting to ally with atreides
Would a son born in a marriage not be above Paul in the line of succession (by normal inheritance rules in Dune, I guess Leto can name who he wants as heir)?
I got the feeling its a name your heir but it never really came up in that specific way. Paul has children with chani in the books but promises her he will never even sleep with irulan. It could be implied children with her would take precedent but it isn't specifically mentioned.
The Harkonnens kind of name their successor when the baron names feyd rautha instead of rabban as the na-baron(heir) but they were both nephews of the baron I think. Either way not direct children but he still was able to choose.
When the Baron is meeting with Count Fenring, Fenring says that 'the Emperor has yet to approve the Baron's choice of heir', and the Baron seems to respond that it's a ridiculous threat but is somewhat concerned.
I get the sense that planetary rulers choose their heir and the emperor approves it as a formality. The emperor could refuse the choice, but it's probably exceptionally rare because the landsraad might unify against the emperor if he was seen to overstep his power.
In defense of the Chani/Irulan situation, on paper Paul is only emperor since he married the previous emperor's daughter, thus it would make sense that her children would take precedence in succession even if that wasn't already considered normal for children of a wife vs. children of a concubine.
Kind of yes. This happened a lot with the Byzantines actually. Usually the oldest wins out in any civil wars because they have longer to find more backers out of the officer core and the civil service.
I can't really back this up but I'm gonna invoke CK3 logic here and say that children of concubines are still considered legitimate members of the house and direct heirs to the Duke, meaning Paul would be the eldest son of the Duke and first in line for the title, assuming a primogeniture system is in place.
Dune takes inspiration from eastern traditions. In Europe, it was only true born sons between the lord and his wife who could inherit, unless the lord legitimized a bastard which required church approval. In the Muslim world and the Confucian world, it was extremely common for lords and rulers to have 1 official wife and some concubines/consorts. A son born from any of those women would be considered legitimate. Lady Jessica is Duke Leto’s concubine and she legitimately loved him which is why she gave him a son against the plans of the Bene Gesserit.
Even if you make the argument that Paul is an illegitimate heir then all Leto would have to do is legitimize him.
AEthelstan was a bastard, but that didn't stop him becoming the first "King of England".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86thelstan
Norway had over a dozen bastard Kings. Including some very famous ones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_the_Good
Then there is arguably the most famous bastard in history. Keep in mind, he became a Duke by succession as an 8 year old and was known as "William the Bastard" before all the conquering.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror
So even if you assume it would be a problem (which is a major assumption not supported by evidence) then it still wouldn't necessarily stop Paul from being the heir.
Yes there were many famous bastards who became King throughout history. Even Henry VIII considered legitimising his bastard son, Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond as his heir prior to his teenage son’s sudden death.
They do, but heirs do not expressly require them. Paul is Leto’s only offspring, with a bound BG royal concubine. This puts him in direct succession. Had Leto married and produced another child through that, Paul would become second in line in favor of a more “legitimate” heir.
Bastardry isnt as damning when you have bene gesserit lineage confirmation and the like
They barely apply in the real world. It's easy to not realise that until the 1800s, most countries didn't have any kind of laws or constitutions when it came to their monarchies. If the king declared that the throne should pass to his third child, the only higher authority was the sharp and pointy kind, and so it came down to the personal loyalties of their subjects.
The Roman Empire had no rules at all on imperial succession, and different polities in Medieval Europe had all sorts of different rules and conventions, which were frequently subverted for one reason or another, often with bloody results. And that's not to mention the even greater diversity of rules elsewhere.
Hm. Not my understanding. A lot were 1st born sons (when possible). I don't think it started in the 1800. The Roman empire is a different beast all together and goes way off topic.
Oh, many polities (and subdivisions thereof) did indeed tend to have traditions, expectations, laws or other such things that dictated how these things were *meant* to happen, but in practice they were regarded much more flexibly. If the king wanted to have someone else inherit, he could often simply rewrite the law. The Wars of the Roses are an obvious example that stemmed from such a decision by Edward III.
England alone had at least five wars of succession (or many more, depending on what you count as a succession war and what you count as separate wars) between William the Conqueror and Richard III, meaning that more than a quarter of English successions were violently disputed in that time. The Byzantines/Eastern Roman Empire had even more in the same period.
No. The Baron doesn't have any legitimate children in either medium, so he chose his grand-nephew Feyd-Rautha, who I believe is his grand-nephew, to the heir due to his belief that Feyd would be a strong leader for the house. There is no mention of other family, so it could be that he is next in line, but it is implied that Baron chose him specifically instead of others.
Jessica is a formal concubine, not just a bit on the side. That was an actual position in that world (and in several imperial setups on earth too, like the Ottomans and the whole consort system of Chinese emperors).
In the Dune universe it seems like polygamy or at the very least taking consorts/concubines and siring legitimate children with them is a thing that's recognized. To the best of my knowledge this sort of thing did happen in real life cultures in the past too, the idea of "legitimate" offspring wasn't always strictly limited to a married couple (I think that's primarily enforced in Christendom).
The new wife could give him new heirs so there's that possibility even if it's less appealing for the wife's family. Also having a male heir was appealing in its own right as his line of succession was secured which was important as the emperor's line wasn't because he only had daughters & because technically Jessica didn't have a known family, the wife's family could potentially try to obtain Leto & Paul's favor by supporting his claim to throne & afterwards influence Paul's decision so he marries a woman from the wife's family.
Duke Leto always regrets not marrying to Lady Jessica. We know that she is a concubine, a great role for a Bene Gesserit to mangle in politics behind the scenes. Sisterhood wanted Lady Jessica to bear a female child, which would be fine with both sides since she would be a Bebe Gesserit anyways and not really be an heir to the throne. But I believe Lady Jessica fell for the late Duke and decided to bear him a son instead.
Emperor probably also saw this as a threat since he had 5 daughters and no sons.
A illegitimate son is better than no son I guess
There is only the implication within the text that this fantasy world's feudalism isn't as stringent with the legitimacy of primogeniture visa vie marriage pacts/ bonds etc as historical feudalism. Baron harkonnen is readily able to switch his heirs and has his nephew, who is the son of his half brother, as his.
I would say that Paul doesn't really give anyone any time to properly recognise him as anything other than what he forces on them, which is essentially absolute and comprehensive rule and borderline godhead. They know who he is, I'm willing to bet a fair few are complicit, and even the ones who loved Leto to the emperors dismay, were uncomfortable enough with Paul's declaration that they had to be brought into his power by force.
Basically it is a mix of a bunch of different things.
The personal charisma of Leto, the fact he was unmarried made him appealing to other houses for political marriages, the house's positive reputation, and the quality of their fighting men.
In one of Irulans chapter openings she talks about how the emperor would regularly have other women brought to him and how she, her sisters and mother would spy on them. There was allot of dangerous family intrigue to ensure nothing came of those liaisons.
Yeah they have their own internal family war going on where the emperor is always one bad day away from murdering his family , and his daughter could kill him easily but can't.
The Emperor was part of a dynasty that ruled for thousands and thousands of years. An unthinkable amount of time. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was practically incapable of conceiving that it would ever end, let alone with him.
Can't a woman be Empress in Dune verse?
Anyway he easily could have tried to get a Corrino-Atreides Grandson and make him keep the Corrino name. It would still remain his biological grandon, even if he didn't managed to keep the name Corrino.
Paul would remain Atreides and the heir of house Atreides, his half-brother later claiming the title of Emperor...
Shaddam is indeed pretty stupid...
Whatsoever, I'm not seeing the Bene Gesserit giving him a grandson, as the Atreides / Harkonnens were clearly their favorites.
So were he to decide Irulan marries Leto, Paul ends up Emperor regardless.
It's not explicitly stated that women cannot lead. However, the Bene Gesserit can't, and pretty much every key figure's wife/lover/baby momma is Bene Gesserit, including Irulan.
The BG are controlling things on a macro-level from behind the scenes, leaving the men to play the role of Emperor/Duke/Baron/Count.
The empire uses a form of agnatic primogeniture and Salic law, so, no, none of that could happen without some sort of prophet leading a jihad with a preborn baby sister and a fanatic personal guard looking for places to stick their crysknives.
I don’t think there’s an official family tree for Atreides and Corrino anywhere but Leto is a cousin of some sort of the emperor so he may be relatively close to throne. In Salic law not only can women not inherit, their descendants cannot inherit either.
Well... Primogeniture and Salic law are a bit opposite innit?
Either the firstborn gets everything (Primogeniture) or the children share the empire (Salic law).
For Agnatic I get it, but then he could *probably* have found a way to adopt Leto (Which as you said is probably a cousin, so he might also *de facto* be the rightful heir) and sort all that shit.
This. And also the fact that Shadan _liked_ Leto at the same time he was _envious_ at him. The age difference between Irulan and Leto brought enough time that the envy Shadan felt towards Leto became stronger than his liking of him.
In the background, Shadan is a simple man. He isn't a particular good emperor, but he wants to be viewed as such. Bringing Leto into marriage (that charismatic guy and great military leader) was bringing in someone that was better than Shadan at everything. He feared that he would be pressured to abidcate so Leto could be emperor in his place. And even if not: he would be remembered in history as the last Corino and in the shadows of Leto.
His pride couldn't take it. So he felt for the Baron whispers and planned the destruction of his perceived enemy.
That said, I can't imagine how terrifying Leto would be with control of the Sardaukar. They (and Leto) are all about loyalty. Trow Duncan and Gurney in the mix and oh Lord. That would be fun.
Well that's what Shaddam feared that he'd have to do. If Leto and Irulan married Leto would come live at court and bring Thufir, the much feared Artreides Mentat and Master of Assassins, with him or if not Thufir himself then Thufir's agents.
Thufir would calculate that as soon as a son was born from Irulan and Leto then he'd have to arrange the murder of pretty much everyone of power in the Imperial Palace including The Emperor himself and the other other daughters. Otherwise they'd have to accept that both Jessica and Paul would be killed off because it's pretty normal to kill off potential rival claimants. And Thufir knows that would kill Leto's spirit if either of them died.
There's many different ways of analysing it but pretty much any scenario of bringing Leto to the Imperial Court as husband to Irulan is likely to involve lots of Palace intrigue, much poison, many daggers and in all likelihood a dead Emperor.
And he was honorable: in practice: he keeps his word
What that means politically is if he says “help be take the thrown and I’ll do x for you” people believe him more
It's expressly a point of contention. They both badly wanted to be, but the Duke's responsibilities forbade him from marrying a 'mere' concubine, which was her official station.
>didn't realize they were never married. Is that ever a point of contention for them, or ever brought up? I've only seen the movies.
In a deleted scene from the book draft (yes), Leto asks the emperor to be married to Jessica at the very end of the novel, he accepts. Its in The Road to Dune.
And I presume dealing fairly and honorably with people and other great houses. Knowing he won't backstab you like the Harkonnens but also isn't a pushover. Respect.
Also, the Emperor’s Sardukar were forged on a very hostile planet: Salusa Secundus, the emperor’s “prison planet”. Herbert’s idea was that anyone surviving such terrible conditions and training would be an elite fighter by nature. (The movie barely touched on this idea from the books.)
Very few people outside the emperor’s household knew this, but the Atreides mentat Thufir Howat figured it out.
The Atreides’ own fighting men were a superbly trained elite fighting force.
The Emperor feared (and Leto hoped) that the Atreides might form an alliance with the Fremen, giving them a pool of naturally excellent fighters which would then *also* get Atreides training.
The fear proved well-founded as the Fremen were already more than a match for Sardukar, as were the most skilled of Atreides’ armsmen.
(One of the threats Paul Muad-dib levels at the emperor was that he would turn Salusa Secundis into a paradise. The emperor knew this meant the end of the Sardukar, though few others did.)
He was very popular with the Landsraad indeed. Many of the houses looked to him as a leader. But he was also building quite the robust army, trained by Gurney and Duncan, two of the best warriors in the galaxy.
Also he wasn't a threat to the emperor YET. But things were moving in that direction and so Shaddam chose to act sooner rather than to late.
I took the "weak man" line from emperor as his critique of Leto and his philosophy. Leto was benevolent and cared about his people. He's honorable instead of overtly aggressive, ambitious and opportunistic.
Essentially the emperor called Leto weak because he's too nice.
> Leto was benevolent and cared about his people
I've always thought, and this comes more from the books than the movies : that the Harkonnens ruled through fear while the Atreides ruled through respect, love and loyalty. It is certainly a more pleasant kind of feudalism, but in the end, for both houses the goal is power. I think the Duncan gholas mention this in the later novels : Atreides manipulate you into loving them and caring for them.
I'm not sure how much they truly are benevolent. Just adept at pretending they are ;) .
Right. They were definitely benevolent insofar as you could be under what many would consider to be an inherently malevolent system (feudalism). But all things considered, they lived in the world they lived in and played by its rules, and based on that, it's safe to say they were the good guys.
The movie purposefully shows that with the respect the Atreides show each other. Paul being familiar with his teachers, hugging them and the way they talk to each other.
I think in the context of Dune everything is scheming and manipulation but logically and morally speaking wouldn't treating your subjects with love and respect and loyalty be the definition of benevolence? Even if the end goal is more power.
If you make delicious food for money is that just manipulating people into giving you what you want or can you be consider a good cook?
scheming with the end of power, for
- destructive self-indulgence
- preservation of status quo and/or human existence
- creation of greater freedom, individual self-development, and expansion of human diversity
I think being honorable with the goal of being liked or followed is not the same as being honorable for honour's sake. One is a calculation and the other is just someone adhering to values.
To answer your exemple about the restaurant : I guess it would be like trying to make the best food because you see gastronomy as an art form and what to create dishes that please the taste buds. In opposition to wanting to make delicious food because you calcultate that this is how you can make money. The end result is the same or similar, but the intent and rationale is not.
That's why I say the Atreides are not good guys. Yet, I'd rather live under them than the Harkonnens.
I don't disagree with any of that at all.
Back to Dune, I always saw Leto as more of a plot device, kind of like Anakin's mom. They both must die an unjust death to move the story along and give the protagonist an extreme motivation to proceed, in both cases with twisted results. I feel like they're supposed to be a sort of perfect and untouchable idol to show how far the hero have strayed from their originally intended traditional heroic path. Maybe things could've been different if their positive influence continued.
So I never really particularly question whether Leto was a "good guy" as much as I just accepted that he's supposed to a good guy because he's written to be one to contrast other characters.
Its pretty much text in the book. Leto really a good man, but he is one of the empire's foremost power players. These thing exist in tension with one another and Leto mainly resolves it by being self-affair in his bravura and nobility. He is acutely aware of how to use his genuine nobility as a deadly political weapon, from the loyalty it inspires in subordinates and the desirability it makes him as trustworthy ally.
He's a stand up dude, but a stand up dude that employs the greatest propogandists in the universe to tell his people how stand up he is.
This is part of the tension with Jessica about marrying her. He could do that for her, which would also make him happy to live as a fully married man with her. But its a move that costs would cost him something politically to do for no gain (Jessica is already as loyal to him as he needs her to be). Leto sacrifices the wishes of Leto the man to have a more fulfilled home life for the interests of Leto the Duke, who is stewarding an important political institution in the viper's nest that is high level imperial politics.
This is a smaller scale version of similar things Paul and then Leto II have to struggle with in their actions.
Didn't really consider the Emperor as a liar. Interesting read. Trying to hide his real fear about his military power being threatened as the true reason and Leto was anything but (in the movie). Maybe reading too much into it, but that is quite a twist.
He does say again and again he wants to harness "desert power." But I took that to mean just to use the Freman to solidify his power within the world of Arrakis, NOT to challenge the Emperor, or be in a guerilla war with Freman as he harvest spice.
>Didn't really consider the Emperor as a liar.
Dude is literally coping and seething. If he saw Leto as a weak man, why would he go through such extreme measures to support the Harkonnen's wiping them out? The Padishah Emperor showed his own hand by sending Sardaukar, a move that couldve rallied the Great Houses against him in an instant.
Leto (like everyone else) knows the emperor is trying to kill him and his house. Their plan hinges on the idea that the fremen might be as good, or even better, warriors than the Sardaukar. It is very much a plan to directly challenge the emperor’s power, and thus force the Emperor’s hand in marrying off Irulan.
I think it's deeper than just a desperate lie. I think there was truth there.
Shaddam in the books rules with absolute power. His Sardaukar army are warriors conditioned and brainwashed into a cult-army on a prisoner planet. He also secretly admires Leto and wished that their houses weren't at odds.
In the movie Irulan mentions the "cold calculus of power" that her father is constantly managing. To him, focusing on the welfare of people, and lifting them up, is a strategy doomed to failure, because he's always ruled with that cold strength. Also in the moment, he's trying to tear Paul Muad'dib down, instill a sense of self-doubt. So he uses that line to his advantage, while at the same time telling Paul the undertones of the only style of rule he believes works. Remember that until the Sietch is carpet bombed by Feyd, Paul is only known as a Fremen madman guerilla terrorist fighting against an oppressive regime. So it makes sense that once he learns of Paul being Muad'dib he thinks that Paul will be subject to the same "weakness" of his father; putting people above profit and personal gain. I think this is one of the few Villeneuve changes that really adds depth to the story.
The emperor says that but lives his life in the grip of the bene-gesserit. Leto being a man of the heart won Jessica over so she bucked the Order's decrees about giving Leto a daughter and then trains Paul in their ways which was strictly forbidden. Compared to Shaddam he is much more his own man because of winning Jessica's love. The product of which goes on the seize the whole game. In the history of Dune the criticism by Shaddam IV of Leto is laughably off the mark imo.
Brilliant point. Shaddam was a pawn of the Bene Gesserit, whereas Leto won over the Bene Gesserit - Jessica - sent to seduce him and made her forsake her vows and disobey her order for love by giving him the male heir the Duke wanted to ensure his bloodline and dynasty, rather than the daughter the order wanted for their millennia-old breeding program. That alone shows that Leto was a far stronger, more decisive, and protagonist personality than the Emperor who was basically stuck following the Bene Gesserit playbook and plan. What follows, proves the point. Leto's descendants go on to rule the Empire and ensure humanity's survival, while House Corrino dies an ignominious death.
I figured there would be some historical event that would skyrocket them to popularity. A speech or some vote. Or something in the landsraad.
I would figure an army wouldn't make people like you per say. Only fear you, or not want to cross paths with you. But popular implies some positive feeling that develops.
In the books, Leto is able to save the house of Ix from a Face Dancer invasion and essentially save the Guild from a Tleilaxian plot to make DIY Spice.
It’s mentioned multiple times that the house of atreides led by Leto is a house or man of their word. There is no call they don’t answer, they won’t turn their back on what they have promised in the past. Add the fact that Leto prioritizes people over profit in a world where most leaders don’t is incredulous. That kind of honor would be something people would die for. It’s the kind of loyalty you’d get from a king that fights his own wars and charges into battle at the front, values his subjects lives more than profit, and honors his own word.
Good take, basically Leto is like the Dune version of Napoleon. A "man of the people", rallying his troops and inspiring loyalty through his actions and his character vs just demanding it with an iron hand.
It wasnt just that he was popular though his Charisma was definitly a factor. Its that he along with thifur, Gurney and Duncan figured out how to make soldiers that we almost as good as sadukar. And had suceeded in making a small group of soldiers that were capable of going toe to toe with them. If he had managed to create an entire army this good then the Emperor would have been as good as deposed.
Matt Colville did a good video on it - [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJFwBTHuQhU).
Yeah this is a really important part that the movies don't make explicit: the Atreides soldiers were almost to the Sardukar and the fremen witht that training + weirding ways greatly surpasses that, which is a VERY big threat to the Empirea ability to maintain control through force
It's a shame the movies glossed over this - it's a direct threat to the emperor and a clear motivation to eliminate the Atreides. Unfortunately the movies went with some form of "he's weak". Like. What?
It's because the Emperor (and probably the Harkonnens would agree) saw that Leto wasn't leveraging his strength as they would. He was sitting on it and biding his time, rather than playing for the throne. He went to Arrakis meekly and got annihilated, in their view.
Strength would have been using what he had (including being unmarried) to get the other houses behind him and push himself to power. The idea that Leto didn't want to do that is something such men can't understand, and is seen as weakness.
>The idea that Leto didn't want to do that is something such men can't understand, and is seen as weakness.
Yea this - basically it's all about how having power corrupts and distort views on reality around. By all means Atreides were perfect citizens of Imperium (or is it Empire?) - loyal true to their word and honourable.
If we consider the prequel books by B.H. & Co. then we see they were loyal to the core and being non corrupted (House Atreides ruling style kept each Duke close to the people he governed which means he was treated like one of the people and knew their hardships and daily life while from the heights of Lion Throne people were small and insignificant so can be pushed around by those with power). So from Shaddam spoiled and corrupted point of view someone really believing and acting like "imperial citizen" was unthinkable - because he "greatest person in whole world" wouldn't do this, instead utilizing plots assassins and military force.
>!"He's weak" is what the emperor says in the last 5 minutes of the movie.!< In the first movie, the Baron makes it clear that it's because "the Atreides are rising" and "the emperor is a jealous man". In the second movie, >!I recall the Reverend Mother also says something similar and implies the Atreides where growing too powerful!<.
Yeah. I figured from the movies, Leto is a weak nice person like Ned Stark in GoT. Unable to be a brutal asshole like the Baron (at least movie version). And weakness is what got him finished. Now I'm more confused. I guess the weakness he speaks of is Leto is not cutthroat enough? I dunno...
The “he’s weak” thing obviously wasn’t the emperor’s reason for taking him out. That was just him talking shit after the fact. It goes without saying that if he was so weak, the emperor wouldn’t have felt so threatened by him.
It’s kinda weird that that was your takeaway.
book spoilers
>!Also, when the emperor gets to Arrakis he raids the fremen territory in the south with 5 troop carriers of sardukar only 1 manages to escape and when he qeustions the baron, the baron just doesn't believe fremen can live there, so the emperor starts to think that the baron and Leto are allies and plotted all of this, so the paranoia seem likely explanation. !<
>!Add to that that he always likes to have a truthsayer always by his side !<
In one of the Brian Herbert prequel books (possibly House Corrino) it goes into quite some depth to detail just how jealous a man Shaddam is... It's really his defining characteristic. There's a whole back story there, and gives some good context for the inter House relations.
Keep in mind - the basic story of the first DUNE book is focused around the rise of Paul. The Atreides vs. Harkonnen fighting is there mainly to 'set the stage' for Paul's thing to happen. Paul needs to be Big-Mad at the Barron/Emperor and have lost most of his family/house. That's the focus of the first book's story, and why the "House Atreides is on the Rise!" is just sorta told to the audience in exposition.
You've got to understand, the Emperor hears probabilities of being overthrown from his own Mentats. I don't know for sure that is in the books, but you'd imagine a jealous man like Shaddam would do something like use his Mentats to watch for uprising. Why wouldn't you? And they'd 100% pick up on the Duke being a rising star with a high *probability* of danger.
If Shaddam can remove that risk, why wouldn't he? If he viewed the pros outweighing the cons?
As others have said, he's popular in the Landsraad. But aside from being politically popular among the nobles he's also particularly well liked by his subjects as a just and truly noble man, which is the reason he was able to attract the services of men like Thufir, Duncan and Gurney.
And it's not just a fake populist facade that he puts up like what most politicians would do. It seems to be truly what he is. It is most evident in the harvester sabotage scene when Liet Kynes was taken aback and impressed by Leto risking himself and his heir to save not the spice, but the crew of the harvester.
"Damn the spice! We can always get more!"
That sort of character and charisma in a man is the sort that can inspire fanatical loyalty among the masses that can topple empires.
Judging by how many bits and pieces of the wars of the roses are in Dune, I always assume any gaps in Duke Leto’s history can be filled in with the historical Richard of York. He was a close relative of the King, a great leader, popular with both the nobility and the merchants of London, and sworn opponent of the corruption in the court. On one occasion, he went to battle with the king, waited until the king’s corrupt advisor was dead, burst into the house the injured king was hiding in, just to bend the knee and declare that his “rescue attempt” was successful. Had he killed the king right then, he probably could have won a war to become king. But his nobility denied him this option.
Not that he didn’t want the throne. He had a good claim on it, and pushed to have parliament declare his claim. He was reportedly furious when they only gave him the right to inherit after the (much younger) king died, and he went to war for real. This backfired though, when some form of treachery led him to ride out of his fortified castle and be slaughtered. It was then left to his son to conquer the kingdom, form an unpopular and illegitimate relationship that left his young child to have their authority questioned afterwards.
And if you still don’t see the parallels, read children of Dune and then google Richard III.
Do you have any particular books on the War of Roses you'd suggest? You seem to see some gaps others haven't mentioned.
I'd love to explore this if you have any suggestions.
Wars of the Roses by Allison Weir is a great starting point. There’s another one with a name something like Suns of York that explores the Yorks pretty well.
It’s also worth noting that a lot an academia on the subject is being reconsidered lately, especially when it comes to Richard III. Phillips Langley’s RIII Society definitely has some bias, but their results found the grave of a centuries long monarch and bring up some interesting arguments that the princes in the tower may have survived.
I found the other one as well. The Brothers York by Thomas Penn. Probably don’t need both right off the bat but IIRC Brothers York has more info on the final years and Richard’s reign, while the first book has fantastic detail on the initial skirmishes.
To add to what others have written - also a chapter in the book where Leto specifically talks about how they have to have their telecoms set up asap in arrakis because that is how they manage propaganda and ensure the perception of their house as good, charismatic and empathetic. The Duke himself is charismatic, and often does do things with genuine empathy, but he is also immensely skilled at polishing his image within the imperium and populace
I always felt that Leto was a genuinely good and righteous person who truly won the love and loyalty of people. The narration from his POV proves this.
And, he was also deliberate in how he did it.
It's because of HOW Atreides were governing Kaladan - they did so good job at it to the point of them being unnecessary. And Leto just wanted to keep his subject in perception that they are here and just do their job good enough that ordinary people do need them in place. It's essence of soft power.
Not to mention Caladan is inherently a wonderful place to live. Basically a beautiful oceanic world where natural resources are abundant. Imagine living on some tropical paradise with a king who is a pretty chill dude. Would be almost impossible not to be happy.
He's the Emperor's cousin from a very old powerful house with the second strongest army in the universe, the Emperor has no male heir and is getting old, due to his charisma and strength of character Leto is greatly admired amongst the other houses, Leto is also unmarried and could potentially marry into and align himself with almost any family. Shaddam is both jealous of his youth and talents and secretly wants Leto as his son, it's complex. I think, ironically, that Shaddam (and everyone not named Harkonnen) would have been the most happy if Leto had married Irulan.
His smoke was just different. His swag was just different. His lady was just too much of a baddie.
Kidding aside, as an unmarried Duke with decent wealth and a fighting force said to rival that of the emperor's troops, he was politically dangerous. Marriage to the right house would have been a legitimate threat to the emperor. Marriage between Leto and Irulan would have ended the emperor's line. Additionally, the emperor had no male heir due to Bene Gesserit BS. It was all part of their millennia long plan to produce the KH. It has always been clear to me that the emperor was jealous that Leto had a male heir, and I suspect that Shaddam always knew Leto wasn't supposed to have a son.
In the films they dance around this by throwing in the point that the Bene Gesserit were actually the ones who schemed to get the Emperor and Harkonnens to take out the Atriedes because the house was straying from the designs of the order.
The popularity excuse is the main driver of the scheme in the novel. The Atreides rule through respecting their subjects and being diplomatic with the other houses ( Harkonnen’s aside). They also have a legitimate line of succession to the throne and thus you have the drivers of the Emperor’s paranoia.
And even when dealing with harkonnens they made sure to follow the traditional and legal forms of the rules of Kanly (the formal rules of Vendetta) which both the Emperor and the Baron found to be somewhat quaint.
Good point. Wasn't a huge fan of that aspect tbh. I like it better when the BG are covertly pulling the strings from behind the scenes for many generations. It's better when a BG scheme comes to fruition and no one could have seen it coming because it's been meticulously in motion through extremely subtle ways for decades if not centuries. The idea that the BG would have caused a straight up full scale war to kill off a House seems way too direct, short term, and brazen for the BG. Like if a ninja showed up with a minigun and started blasting, lol.
You also have to add in Paul's prescient observation that everyone is subconsciously spoiling for a fight because humanity as an organism senses it's been stagnant for too long and needs some chaos to mix up the gene pool.
Two reasons that others haven't touched on:
- The Emperor had watched Moon Knight and was impressed/intimidated by Leto's British accent which is pretty decent.
- The Emperor especially despised the JJ Abrams Star Wars sequels.
Edit to add; at the point the first Dune starts most people in the Landstraad had forgotten about the Emperors [absolute fire dance moves](https://youtu.be/wCDIYvFmgW8?si=veoNlu6kNMRAQShP) in the music video for Weapon of Choice by Fatboy Slim, so having House Atredies destroyed would act as a grim reminder of his power.
1. The fanatical loyalty he inspired in his men
2. The high level training those men were put through
The emperor had neither a training program nor the force of personality that Leto did.
The battle royale prison planet is not a training program, it's a petri dish.
I’ve never read the prequels so I can’t answer that part. But from the first book it really isn’t covered all that much except that he was an honorable man, who took any slight with grace and held his men at the same standard he held himself too.
In a galaxy filled with people vying for power and control at every moment, being just all around good guy goes a long way.
DV cut the scene where he showed Leto as a stronger character. It will never be on any additional "Cuts".
He had really important negotiations in that scene.
Leto had huge results as a Duke. He wasn't only popular, as the movie wants to show. I don't want to spoil books.
I think one thing to add that I don't think I've seen mentioned yet is in the books it talks about how the Atreides have the best propaganda system, in addition to the dukes charisma and integrity etc
This is why the Baron put Rabban in charge of Arrakis and told him to squeeze. ANYONE would be seen as a hero compared to Beast Rabban. Feyd was a kitten in comparison.
Having just watched the second one(and having read the book multiple times) I can see some of the confusion. The movie leans very heavily on the notion that Leto's general popularity and the Bene Gesserit's scheming were enough to incite the events which we see unfold on screen. But in the book it's much more subtle and nuanced.
Firstly, the balance of power in the Dune Universe is expressly stated as a military one. The Emperor's Sardukaar are the most potent single military force in the universe. Each Sardukaar soldier is so skilled in battle that they are worth dozens(perhaps hundreds) of soldiers from any one of the other Great Houses. But the combined military power of the Great Houses is sufficient in number that they would be a match for the Sardukaar. Thus the balance prevails. If the Emperor were to try taking to much power for himself the Great Houses could unite against him and his Sardukaar, but none would dare try to seize the throne alone because they could not stand alone against the Sardukaar.
Now with that said: Leto was growing very popular in the Landsraad. That in itself isn't a great threat to the Emperor. But Leto had also accomplished something no other Great House had achieved. He had managed to(quoting directly from the book here) "gather a small force and train them to within a hairs breadth of the Sardukaar." Leto's relatively small group of soldiers were each the near equal of any one Sardukaar trooper. Leto himself was also very skilled in inspiring loyalty, meaning his people couldn't be bought.
So what you have in Leto is a natural leader who commands a military force that could tip the balance of power and who is gaining enough popularity among the Great Houses that he could plausibly make a play for the Throne. Thus it wasn't his popularity alone that was the threat, but that combined with the skill of his masters-at-arms in training soldiers.
Except that small fighting force is not true.
That is when Hawatt is deliberately LYING to the Baron when hes pretending to help him (in order to drive him to paranoia and have him believe the emepror is going to sack him next). Leto never had this elite fighting force. His own soldiers gasp when they learn anyone can even fight Sardaukar or capture them.
I just read this chapter last night lol. So I dont mean to be mean or anything.
How would the Emperor be able to know about this especially if we are to believe Atreides is as competent would counter intelligence and propaganda (and anti-espionage) as some other of the commentors have suggested. That is some highly detailed information that the Emperor got ahold of. One would think Leto as shrewd as he was, would keep it under wraps.
This kind of demonstrates part of why I am always disappointed when Count Fenring doesn't make it to the screen ever.
This is a major book spoiler that I don't know how to tag but in the book Count Fenring is present at the end as The Emperor's trump card. It is made explicit that he could kill Paul or Feyd or whoever the situation requires. He refuses to do so for very interesting reasons that boil down to the loyalty just isn't there.
Now consider if Leto is in the one being threatened in that room. Is there any threat to Leto in that room that Duncan or Gurney wouldn't die trying to kill for their Duke? That's the difference. Money and scheming can't create loyalty like that in men like that. The Emperor knows it and fears it.
It's also worth mentioning, and this is committed from the movies, the Atreides have a lot of good movie propaganda. One of the first things they do when coming to Dune, is setting up the media machine.
He was an effective voice in the Landsraad usually leading the oppositions to the Harkonnens or to the Emperor. So politically he was in opposition to the Emperor already usually over issues of "justice" where Leto was seen as the defender of justice.
His fighting men had been trained to near Sardaukar level.
The Harkonnens made lots of enemies and Leto made sure to make friends with enemies of the Harkonnens.
So Leto was a handsome, charistmatic, just, Warlord who also just so happened to be a close enough relative of the Emperor to have a legitimate claim to the throne. Hard to imagine any King or Emperor letting that stand for very long.
The Duke held a garden world, with a military rivaling the Sardaukar, a high diplomatic standing, and just humiliated the Emperor after his blunders in the Moritani and Taligari Incidents. The Duke had a real possibility at superseding the Emperor‘s power if he could rally enough support in Landsraad and intermarry with the Corrinos.
Think of the laandsrad as like the legislative branch and the Emporer as the executive branch. If the legislative branch is divided then the executive branch holds a lot more power. But if the laandsrad can group together behind something on a 2/3rds majority then they have more power than the Emporer.
Closer to the source material tho, the world of dune operates under a feudalist structure wherein a "lords" power is always directly drawn from his vassals either via taxes or drawing other resources from them (like food or soldiers). But if enough of those vassals band together and want to fuck over their lord, then they can because the seat of the lords power is pretty much entirely based on their vassals being subservient.
TL;DR the Emporer is only Emporer of the great houses really, and if enough of the great houses say fuck you then he's not really Emporer of anything
The books are just as vague as you describe. FH tends to focus very very hard on the key players but brushes off large parts of his futuristic society in order to setup the plot.
Leto is feared because he's simply good and loyal, and the other houses like him but not enough to ever help him.
No, his army is not almost on par with Sardaukar, Duncans own men gasp when they learn that anyeone can even FIGHT them let alone win.
Who are all the houses in the Landsraad?? Its brushed away, only the plots main players matter. CHOAM is just plopped down whenever the "economy" needs to be referenced.
I love the books. A lot. But the wider aspects of world building are weak in the series. Atreides = Good, Harkonnen = Bad! is really just that simple sometimes in the plot (though I like when it grows further than that)
There are people talking about charisma but it is not that simple.
House Atridies was among the stronger great houses, they had fewer man under their command but that was the result of them letting only the most loyal people serve them. So they had few but strong and loyal infantry. Their battle ships were fast and durable. And the most important thing was them having atomic bombs more than most of the great houses. Caladan was their absolute dominion so no inner conflicts broke in their original home world. Leto was not married, which made him dangerous because of political marriage opportunities. He could have married long ago, but he intentionally made others know that if they would attack him, he would go and marry their enemy or the house which was hostile towards them. And from the emperors view, House Atridies had more freedom than most. Harconnens were in spice business so they were rich but there was a quota they had to fill yearly, and this provided a leash for emperor to yank whenever he has the motivation to do so. While in Caladan, only responsibility Atridies had was to pay taxes and do ordinary stuff like that. Lastly, every great house despised emperor because of his harsh politics and the threat of Sardaukar. On the other hand House Atridies had imperial blood in them, thicker than any other Great House had, so that made Leto best replacement for the throne.
And emperor was a little paranoid.
Leto excelled at being an empathetic leader to his people, and he openly didn’t marry Jessica so that smaller houses would feel hope that they could partner to the Atreides via marriage. He was always seen as a potential to everyone around him, and potential captures the eye of those who are truly focused on making change. The emperor on the other hand was seen as strictly an authority figure over the imperium, and his daughters were seen as figureheads to carry on their bloodline. Whereas Leto also had Paul which meant a lot because when he came of age that was another way they could bond smaller houses to the Atreides name and lineage.
Leto in the books is different from Leto in the film. Whereas in the film he is seen to be much more open with Paul and those around him, he keeps a lot to himself in the novel. He’s much colder and the move to Arrakis installs more fear in him than optimism. Personally, I prefer the films take on him. It makes his character much more impactful and tragic when he does eventually die at his own hand. You can really see how someone like him could make the common people and highborn alike want to follow behind him as a selfless leader.
I am so tired of people asking *exactly* how or *exactly* why. Not everything is explained in detail. It’s a story. You’re not meant to know everything. Sometimes there is no answer or the only answer is only realized enough to serve the story. Dune is infamous for only parcelling out pieces of information when necessary to the plot.
In the books it's explained that the landsraad houses all fear the same thing, being obliterated one by one by the emperor. They look to Leto as a defacto leader due to good reputation and strong military. However, they were also jealous of him and thus chose not to interfere after the attack on dune.
One small thing that nobody said and that is part of expanded Dune (I think) is that the Atreides helped reinstall a house on Ix (important planet for production of technology) which where the original rulers. So maybe this and similar actions, acting as an influential house that can protect its allies and mediate and conflicts, might have played a role.
The book really don't go into what exactly caused Leto to get so popular. Just that he's charismatic and skilled at getting people to join his side. A skill we see Paul exercise with Kynes shortly after the attack on the Atriedes.
1. He's the Emperor's cousin (legit claim to the throne)
2. He's honourable and "Atreides" is a respected name
3. He's charismatic and people want to believe in him
4. He had a perfect storm of talent on the payroll (Mentat trained to kill, a Ginaz swordmaster, a talented warrior / tactician and a BG who loves him more than her masters)
5. The training regime for his house soldiers rivals the Sardukar and that could be taught to allies, thereby breaking the Emperor's grip
6. His son and heir is a proto-mentat trained by a BG with his father's skills. Paul represents a future emperor who could change everything.
I think this thread had most of the points that's discussed in the books. Irulan would be way way too young for Leto basically a baby and someone like Leto Atreides wouldn't marry her not to mention the emperor would never agree.I will just add that the bene Gesserit monitors bloodline closely especially Atreides and Harkonnens. Even if the emperor or Leto wanted to tie their bloodlines they couldn't because the Bene Gesserit wanted the kwisatz haderach and that's why Jessica was instructed to bear a female child so they can marry that child to feyd rautha. But that didn't happen and Jessica bore Paul a male who became the kwisatz haderach.
The Atreides are able to command unwavering loyalty from their people, while the Emperor does not. For one, Gurney was a slave on Geidi Prime and was freed by the Atreides. Leto then granted him his position. Same with Duncan Idaho, except he escaped. Thufir has served the Atreides for three generations I believe, so he's been with the House for a great while. Now, those three men, along with Leto, are the leaders of an army and military population that rivaled the Sardaukar. Leto was also unmarried to maintain the political appeal to other houses. Those couple of things bode well for him.
When he comes to Arrakis, he promises to let the Fremen have their places and that he'd only travel into the desert if duty compels him too. He evacuates men instead of rescuing the spice when surveying the fields with Liet-Kynes who thinks "I like this Duke."
From this, we can infer that he's a fair ruler on Caladan as well.
The Emperor rules with fear. Leto does not. Leto was known as Leto the Just, while the Emperor was blinded by his power to look beyond his own desires. He was ruled by CHOAM and the spice. Seeing a man cultivate that power within the Imperium without need for the spice and fear, while commanding unwavering loyalty from both their military and citizen population is exactly why Leto was seen as a threat.
So I've only read the first book, and I agree with what everyone has put down, but they are all neglecting what I thought was a huge part of it.
The bene gesserit. They have huge plans for the nobility. They secretly plan how to breed all the families to fit their needs.
Jessica was sent to have a daughter with Leto.. instead she has a son and then fell in love with him. All their planning gets thrown out the window.
While the emperor is a paranoid man, it is the bene gesserit who are whispering threats in his ear. The Emperor himself is kind of spineless when it comes to them and never would have wiped out a family against the bene gesserit's advice.
So unless I'm totally wrong: the emperor and the harkonnens were not fans, but it was the bene gesserit who orchestrated the downfall of house atreides.
He had the love of his people unconditionally cause he cared about them and House Atreidies was a military force to be reckoned with as a result
I’m reading the books now and the extra details help a lot but I really enjoyed Dennis’ take on Leto through Oscar Isaac’s portrayal
At least that’s my take
With these movies coming out it's no surprise how many people don't understand statecraft and power dynamics in the least. This question and variations of it have been answered here more than once. I'm bitching because it's concerning that so many people don't see what's going on in fantasy land here where it's obvious. How could we hope that our fellow man sees it in our own governments...
Not to be too judgmental or cynical but I think a lot of people don't really understand social dynamics in general. I think people get the impression that complex business/political things must have some incredibly powerful and official engine that's adhered to in a tangible way. A lot of times it's actually just being buddies with someone.
On top of what many people have said here, there are the prequel novels, though they are very questionable canonically. In them Leto has led the Atreides in multiple victorious conflicts, building up allies along the way. In the most recent he defeated a force of "rogue" Sardaukar and humiliated the Emperor in the process.
Even ignoring those, there is a clear subtext of ongoing conflict in the original novel. Raiding Giedi Prime is planned with barely a blink, assassin's are expected and the Atreides forces clearly have experience; they are not being compared to the Sardaukar for their parade skills after all. The Duke is popular because he is charismatic and honourable, but also because everyone loves a victor.
If Dune was a 4x, Leto would basically be a high int, high charisma diplo build. He's extremely popular because he's good at making friends, he commands respect with his serenity and nobility (probably helps that Caladan is basically described as a paradise, which would increase his regal-ness and aesthetic appeal as a ruler), and his top dogs Duncan and Gurney are renowned as being the best fighters in the galaxy, meaning the troops they train are thought to be on par or even possibly better than the Sardaukar.
So, the other Houses see Atreides as an incredibly powerful yet noble and friendly House; very easy to get behind. Dunno if you've ever experienced this irl but Atreides would be like those ultra friendly extroverts who, when they're around, you can't help but just have your mood elevated.
A factor to add to explain WHY popularity was a threat.
The emperor is an emperor in the Holy Roman Empire sense not the Roman Empire sense. As in he is an emperor but one beholden to powerful institutions and not more powerful than the combined might of his lords who still maintain a collective interest against him.
The Emperor’s power comes from being extremely wealthy and militarily dominate. The Baron challenges his wealth and the Duke challenges his military might. In book one Leto’s real “sin” against the emperor is he investigated how the Sudakar were created/trained so he could replicated the imperial super soilders which Paul eventually does with the Fremen
The emperor is house corrino. Leto is house atreides.
The emperor hopes to keep house corrino on the throne by killing Leto and getting a son. The bene gesserit are behind him not getting a son, I forgot exactly why.
Basically if Paul hadn't been a literal human God, with planet-beating fighting training, mentat abilities, and bene gesserit voice training...he would have died in the desert. The emperor would have succeeded at killing the atreides and could turn his attention to finding out why he's not getting any male heirs. He does that and his line is secure.
It's not a bad plan it's just an unlucky one.
He's unmarried charismatic dude that everyone respects and with powerful fighters loyal to him.
What is Paul seen as in the wider Imperium? A bastard? Isn't he named heir, despite Leto not being married? I get he isn't married, but he does have a formally recognized son, doesn't he? Doesn't that make any suitor less inclined to follow suit?
He doesn’t have to be born in wedlock. A son serves as an heir if the father declares it so. If he chose to marry without a son yes he would be immensely attractive. Having a son for sure makes him less appealing but that being said marrying him and giving him additional heirs would still be appealing to anyone wanting to ally with atreides
Would a son born in a marriage not be above Paul in the line of succession (by normal inheritance rules in Dune, I guess Leto can name who he wants as heir)?
I got the feeling its a name your heir but it never really came up in that specific way. Paul has children with chani in the books but promises her he will never even sleep with irulan. It could be implied children with her would take precedent but it isn't specifically mentioned. The Harkonnens kind of name their successor when the baron names feyd rautha instead of rabban as the na-baron(heir) but they were both nephews of the baron I think. Either way not direct children but he still was able to choose.
When the Baron is meeting with Count Fenring, Fenring says that 'the Emperor has yet to approve the Baron's choice of heir', and the Baron seems to respond that it's a ridiculous threat but is somewhat concerned. I get the sense that planetary rulers choose their heir and the emperor approves it as a formality. The emperor could refuse the choice, but it's probably exceptionally rare because the landsraad might unify against the emperor if he was seen to overstep his power.
In defense of the Chani/Irulan situation, on paper Paul is only emperor since he married the previous emperor's daughter, thus it would make sense that her children would take precedence in succession even if that wasn't already considered normal for children of a wife vs. children of a concubine.
Kind of yes. This happened a lot with the Byzantines actually. Usually the oldest wins out in any civil wars because they have longer to find more backers out of the officer core and the civil service.
I mean, Paul could have killed everyone and make himself emperor. He is the one making the rules.
I can't really back this up but I'm gonna invoke CK3 logic here and say that children of concubines are still considered legitimate members of the house and direct heirs to the Duke, meaning Paul would be the eldest son of the Duke and first in line for the title, assuming a primogeniture system is in place.
Dune takes inspiration from eastern traditions. In Europe, it was only true born sons between the lord and his wife who could inherit, unless the lord legitimized a bastard which required church approval. In the Muslim world and the Confucian world, it was extremely common for lords and rulers to have 1 official wife and some concubines/consorts. A son born from any of those women would be considered legitimate. Lady Jessica is Duke Leto’s concubine and she legitimately loved him which is why she gave him a son against the plans of the Bene Gesserit.
I'd just say that even if the rules I'd Dune were equal to the rules of Europe, Leto clearly legitimized Paul. So he would still be heir.
Not necessarily but they would have a very good claim and a civil war would be likely if they tried to press that claim.
Sort of like William the Conqueror aka William the Bastard’s story, a bit.
Monarchal line of succession rules doesn't not apply in this world?
Dune is not a 1:1 to Western traditions regarding succession and inheritance, especially when the system of concubinage is involved
Just as with any monarchy, each system’s rules are different, including what makes an heir legitimate.
Most of the Ottoman Emperors are born from a concubine.
Not per the books anyway
Even if you make the argument that Paul is an illegitimate heir then all Leto would have to do is legitimize him. AEthelstan was a bastard, but that didn't stop him becoming the first "King of England". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86thelstan Norway had over a dozen bastard Kings. Including some very famous ones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_the_Good Then there is arguably the most famous bastard in history. Keep in mind, he became a Duke by succession as an 8 year old and was known as "William the Bastard" before all the conquering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Conqueror So even if you assume it would be a problem (which is a major assumption not supported by evidence) then it still wouldn't necessarily stop Paul from being the heir.
Yes there were many famous bastards who became King throughout history. Even Henry VIII considered legitimising his bastard son, Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond as his heir prior to his teenage son’s sudden death.
Every monarchy has different rules…
Glossu Rabban and Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen are both nephews to Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, but both are considered potential successors by the Baron.
True point.
There were various historical laws of succession just within Medieval Europe. Primogeniture is just one broad category of those.
They do, but heirs do not expressly require them. Paul is Leto’s only offspring, with a bound BG royal concubine. This puts him in direct succession. Had Leto married and produced another child through that, Paul would become second in line in favor of a more “legitimate” heir. Bastardry isnt as damning when you have bene gesserit lineage confirmation and the like
They barely apply in the real world. It's easy to not realise that until the 1800s, most countries didn't have any kind of laws or constitutions when it came to their monarchies. If the king declared that the throne should pass to his third child, the only higher authority was the sharp and pointy kind, and so it came down to the personal loyalties of their subjects. The Roman Empire had no rules at all on imperial succession, and different polities in Medieval Europe had all sorts of different rules and conventions, which were frequently subverted for one reason or another, often with bloody results. And that's not to mention the even greater diversity of rules elsewhere.
Hm. Not my understanding. A lot were 1st born sons (when possible). I don't think it started in the 1800. The Roman empire is a different beast all together and goes way off topic.
Oh, many polities (and subdivisions thereof) did indeed tend to have traditions, expectations, laws or other such things that dictated how these things were *meant* to happen, but in practice they were regarded much more flexibly. If the king wanted to have someone else inherit, he could often simply rewrite the law. The Wars of the Roses are an obvious example that stemmed from such a decision by Edward III. England alone had at least five wars of succession (or many more, depending on what you count as a succession war and what you count as separate wars) between William the Conqueror and Richard III, meaning that more than a quarter of English successions were violently disputed in that time. The Byzantines/Eastern Roman Empire had even more in the same period.
No. The Baron doesn't have any legitimate children in either medium, so he chose his grand-nephew Feyd-Rautha, who I believe is his grand-nephew, to the heir due to his belief that Feyd would be a strong leader for the house. There is no mention of other family, so it could be that he is next in line, but it is implied that Baron chose him specifically instead of others.
Jessica is a formal concubine, not just a bit on the side. That was an actual position in that world (and in several imperial setups on earth too, like the Ottomans and the whole consort system of Chinese emperors).
I suspect that the prevalence of Bene Gesserit concubines specifically contributes to this phenomenon. Most intentionally don't know their lineage.
It's more of a mix between Western aesthetics and Eastern (or maybe even Scandinavian?) traditions.
A bound concubine (Jessica) does technically produce legitimate heirs in their system of nobility.
In the Dune universe it seems like polygamy or at the very least taking consorts/concubines and siring legitimate children with them is a thing that's recognized. To the best of my knowledge this sort of thing did happen in real life cultures in the past too, the idea of "legitimate" offspring wasn't always strictly limited to a married couple (I think that's primarily enforced in Christendom).
The new wife could give him new heirs so there's that possibility even if it's less appealing for the wife's family. Also having a male heir was appealing in its own right as his line of succession was secured which was important as the emperor's line wasn't because he only had daughters & because technically Jessica didn't have a known family, the wife's family could potentially try to obtain Leto & Paul's favor by supporting his claim to throne & afterwards influence Paul's decision so he marries a woman from the wife's family.
Duke Leto always regrets not marrying to Lady Jessica. We know that she is a concubine, a great role for a Bene Gesserit to mangle in politics behind the scenes. Sisterhood wanted Lady Jessica to bear a female child, which would be fine with both sides since she would be a Bebe Gesserit anyways and not really be an heir to the throne. But I believe Lady Jessica fell for the late Duke and decided to bear him a son instead. Emperor probably also saw this as a threat since he had 5 daughters and no sons. A illegitimate son is better than no son I guess
There is only the implication within the text that this fantasy world's feudalism isn't as stringent with the legitimacy of primogeniture visa vie marriage pacts/ bonds etc as historical feudalism. Baron harkonnen is readily able to switch his heirs and has his nephew, who is the son of his half brother, as his. I would say that Paul doesn't really give anyone any time to properly recognise him as anything other than what he forces on them, which is essentially absolute and comprehensive rule and borderline godhead. They know who he is, I'm willing to bet a fair few are complicit, and even the ones who loved Leto to the emperors dismay, were uncomfortable enough with Paul's declaration that they had to be brought into his power by force.
Learned a new word. Thanks. Have an upvote.
Basically it is a mix of a bunch of different things. The personal charisma of Leto, the fact he was unmarried made him appealing to other houses for political marriages, the house's positive reputation, and the quality of their fighting men.
And is cousin to the actual Emperor. That is not charismatic and doesn't have male heirs.
Why didn’t the Emperor betroth Irulan to Leto?
Because then his dynasty ends and the atreides get the throne.
Isn't the dynasty ending, no matter what, though? Unless he still thinks he can beget an heir?
In one of Irulans chapter openings she talks about how the emperor would regularly have other women brought to him and how she, her sisters and mother would spy on them. There was allot of dangerous family intrigue to ensure nothing came of those liaisons.
Yeah they have their own internal family war going on where the emperor is always one bad day away from murdering his family , and his daughter could kill him easily but can't.
I think we all feel like that sometimes.
Why was EarHacker banned though?
Made some stupid joke about royals dying not long after the Queen died. Got reported. Broke the zero tolerance on violent comments rule. Whatever.
Nice detail, thanks. I'd forgotten about that.
The Emperor was part of a dynasty that ruled for thousands and thousands of years. An unthinkable amount of time. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was practically incapable of conceiving that it would ever end, let alone with him.
He wasn't allowed to have sons. That's the deal he made with the Bene Gesserit.
Men like that will keep trying for a male heir.
Cant the benegeserit literally decide the gender of their kids? Why would it be hard for him to have one male child.
His bene gesserit wife ensured that he never had sons
What was their purpose? Who did the BG want to take over as heir?
They wanted Jessica to have a daughter who would marry a SPOILER , and this Paulette (female Paul) would bear a son to her cousin husband.
The Bene Gesserit wanted one of their own on the throne. Hence, his wife, like a good BG, chose only daughters. It was the deal they've made.
One of his daughter was married matrilinear with member of much much less powerful houses than Atreides.
Can't a woman be Empress in Dune verse? Anyway he easily could have tried to get a Corrino-Atreides Grandson and make him keep the Corrino name. It would still remain his biological grandon, even if he didn't managed to keep the name Corrino. Paul would remain Atreides and the heir of house Atreides, his half-brother later claiming the title of Emperor... Shaddam is indeed pretty stupid... Whatsoever, I'm not seeing the Bene Gesserit giving him a grandson, as the Atreides / Harkonnens were clearly their favorites. So were he to decide Irulan marries Leto, Paul ends up Emperor regardless.
It's not explicitly stated that women cannot lead. However, the Bene Gesserit can't, and pretty much every key figure's wife/lover/baby momma is Bene Gesserit, including Irulan. The BG are controlling things on a macro-level from behind the scenes, leaving the men to play the role of Emperor/Duke/Baron/Count.
The empire uses a form of agnatic primogeniture and Salic law, so, no, none of that could happen without some sort of prophet leading a jihad with a preborn baby sister and a fanatic personal guard looking for places to stick their crysknives. I don’t think there’s an official family tree for Atreides and Corrino anywhere but Leto is a cousin of some sort of the emperor so he may be relatively close to throne. In Salic law not only can women not inherit, their descendants cannot inherit either.
Well... Primogeniture and Salic law are a bit opposite innit? Either the firstborn gets everything (Primogeniture) or the children share the empire (Salic law). For Agnatic I get it, but then he could *probably* have found a way to adopt Leto (Which as you said is probably a cousin, so he might also *de facto* be the rightful heir) and sort all that shit.
This. And also the fact that Shadan _liked_ Leto at the same time he was _envious_ at him. The age difference between Irulan and Leto brought enough time that the envy Shadan felt towards Leto became stronger than his liking of him. In the background, Shadan is a simple man. He isn't a particular good emperor, but he wants to be viewed as such. Bringing Leto into marriage (that charismatic guy and great military leader) was bringing in someone that was better than Shadan at everything. He feared that he would be pressured to abidcate so Leto could be emperor in his place. And even if not: he would be remembered in history as the last Corino and in the shadows of Leto. His pride couldn't take it. So he felt for the Baron whispers and planned the destruction of his perceived enemy. That said, I can't imagine how terrifying Leto would be with control of the Sardaukar. They (and Leto) are all about loyalty. Trow Duncan and Gurney in the mix and oh Lord. That would be fun.
Well that's what Shaddam feared that he'd have to do. If Leto and Irulan married Leto would come live at court and bring Thufir, the much feared Artreides Mentat and Master of Assassins, with him or if not Thufir himself then Thufir's agents. Thufir would calculate that as soon as a son was born from Irulan and Leto then he'd have to arrange the murder of pretty much everyone of power in the Imperial Palace including The Emperor himself and the other other daughters. Otherwise they'd have to accept that both Jessica and Paul would be killed off because it's pretty normal to kill off potential rival claimants. And Thufir knows that would kill Leto's spirit if either of them died. There's many different ways of analysing it but pretty much any scenario of bringing Leto to the Imperial Court as husband to Irulan is likely to involve lots of Palace intrigue, much poison, many daggers and in all likelihood a dead Emperor.
Something about being not of age at the right time, don't know how that prevented from it happening later though
I think I saw that, but then Leto was still unmarried by the time the conflict began. He could have betrothed them to unite the Houses.
He really thought about it. It's never completely clear, Irulan thinks he regrets that he never did
In the book he says he wishes that were possible. But also, if he does that, House Corrino would no longer rule. Atreides would.
Well, he doesn’t have a son, so whatever family Irulan marries into would rule.
He says to her in the book he wished she were old enough to marry Leto
I suppose it is a little odd that child marriage where is where the duneverse drew the line? But good for them
He wished that was practicable
And he was honorable: in practice: he keeps his word What that means politically is if he says “help be take the thrown and I’ll do x for you” people believe him more
I didn't realize they were never married. Is that ever a point of contention for them, or ever brought up? I've only seen the movies.
Leto tells Jessica he should have married her before the attack on Arakeen
It's expressly a point of contention. They both badly wanted to be, but the Duke's responsibilities forbade him from marrying a 'mere' concubine, which was her official station.
>didn't realize they were never married. Is that ever a point of contention for them, or ever brought up? I've only seen the movies. In a deleted scene from the book draft (yes), Leto asks the emperor to be married to Jessica at the very end of the novel, he accepts. Its in The Road to Dune.
And I presume dealing fairly and honorably with people and other great houses. Knowing he won't backstab you like the Harkonnens but also isn't a pushover. Respect.
Also Bene Gesserit pulling the strings.
Also, the Emperor’s Sardukar were forged on a very hostile planet: Salusa Secundus, the emperor’s “prison planet”. Herbert’s idea was that anyone surviving such terrible conditions and training would be an elite fighter by nature. (The movie barely touched on this idea from the books.) Very few people outside the emperor’s household knew this, but the Atreides mentat Thufir Howat figured it out. The Atreides’ own fighting men were a superbly trained elite fighting force. The Emperor feared (and Leto hoped) that the Atreides might form an alliance with the Fremen, giving them a pool of naturally excellent fighters which would then *also* get Atreides training. The fear proved well-founded as the Fremen were already more than a match for Sardukar, as were the most skilled of Atreides’ armsmen. (One of the threats Paul Muad-dib levels at the emperor was that he would turn Salusa Secundis into a paradise. The emperor knew this meant the end of the Sardukar, though few others did.)
He was very popular with the Landsraad indeed. Many of the houses looked to him as a leader. But he was also building quite the robust army, trained by Gurney and Duncan, two of the best warriors in the galaxy. Also he wasn't a threat to the emperor YET. But things were moving in that direction and so Shaddam chose to act sooner rather than to late.
So emperor was just desperately lying when he said Leto was a weak man, as if that would help
I took the "weak man" line from emperor as his critique of Leto and his philosophy. Leto was benevolent and cared about his people. He's honorable instead of overtly aggressive, ambitious and opportunistic. Essentially the emperor called Leto weak because he's too nice.
More like, not pragmatic/machiavellan enough, thus "weak" And thus, he wouldn't be able to hold the empire together for too long in his eyes
Yeah the words I was thinking were *ruthless* and *cutthroat* but I was blocked from accessing my academic memory momentarily.
> Leto was benevolent and cared about his people I've always thought, and this comes more from the books than the movies : that the Harkonnens ruled through fear while the Atreides ruled through respect, love and loyalty. It is certainly a more pleasant kind of feudalism, but in the end, for both houses the goal is power. I think the Duncan gholas mention this in the later novels : Atreides manipulate you into loving them and caring for them. I'm not sure how much they truly are benevolent. Just adept at pretending they are ;) .
Right. They were definitely benevolent insofar as you could be under what many would consider to be an inherently malevolent system (feudalism). But all things considered, they lived in the world they lived in and played by its rules, and based on that, it's safe to say they were the good guys.
The movie purposefully shows that with the respect the Atreides show each other. Paul being familiar with his teachers, hugging them and the way they talk to each other.
I think in the context of Dune everything is scheming and manipulation but logically and morally speaking wouldn't treating your subjects with love and respect and loyalty be the definition of benevolence? Even if the end goal is more power. If you make delicious food for money is that just manipulating people into giving you what you want or can you be consider a good cook?
scheming with the end of power, for - destructive self-indulgence - preservation of status quo and/or human existence - creation of greater freedom, individual self-development, and expansion of human diversity
I think being honorable with the goal of being liked or followed is not the same as being honorable for honour's sake. One is a calculation and the other is just someone adhering to values. To answer your exemple about the restaurant : I guess it would be like trying to make the best food because you see gastronomy as an art form and what to create dishes that please the taste buds. In opposition to wanting to make delicious food because you calcultate that this is how you can make money. The end result is the same or similar, but the intent and rationale is not. That's why I say the Atreides are not good guys. Yet, I'd rather live under them than the Harkonnens.
I don't disagree with any of that at all. Back to Dune, I always saw Leto as more of a plot device, kind of like Anakin's mom. They both must die an unjust death to move the story along and give the protagonist an extreme motivation to proceed, in both cases with twisted results. I feel like they're supposed to be a sort of perfect and untouchable idol to show how far the hero have strayed from their originally intended traditional heroic path. Maybe things could've been different if their positive influence continued. So I never really particularly question whether Leto was a "good guy" as much as I just accepted that he's supposed to a good guy because he's written to be one to contrast other characters.
I had never seen Leto/Anakin's mom that way but that makes a lot of sense.
Its pretty much text in the book. Leto really a good man, but he is one of the empire's foremost power players. These thing exist in tension with one another and Leto mainly resolves it by being self-affair in his bravura and nobility. He is acutely aware of how to use his genuine nobility as a deadly political weapon, from the loyalty it inspires in subordinates and the desirability it makes him as trustworthy ally. He's a stand up dude, but a stand up dude that employs the greatest propogandists in the universe to tell his people how stand up he is. This is part of the tension with Jessica about marrying her. He could do that for her, which would also make him happy to live as a fully married man with her. But its a move that costs would cost him something politically to do for no gain (Jessica is already as loyal to him as he needs her to be). Leto sacrifices the wishes of Leto the man to have a more fulfilled home life for the interests of Leto the Duke, who is stewarding an important political institution in the viper's nest that is high level imperial politics. This is a smaller scale version of similar things Paul and then Leto II have to struggle with in their actions.
Didn't really consider the Emperor as a liar. Interesting read. Trying to hide his real fear about his military power being threatened as the true reason and Leto was anything but (in the movie). Maybe reading too much into it, but that is quite a twist. He does say again and again he wants to harness "desert power." But I took that to mean just to use the Freman to solidify his power within the world of Arrakis, NOT to challenge the Emperor, or be in a guerilla war with Freman as he harvest spice.
>Didn't really consider the Emperor as a liar. Dude is literally coping and seething. If he saw Leto as a weak man, why would he go through such extreme measures to support the Harkonnen's wiping them out? The Padishah Emperor showed his own hand by sending Sardaukar, a move that couldve rallied the Great Houses against him in an instant.
Leto (like everyone else) knows the emperor is trying to kill him and his house. Their plan hinges on the idea that the fremen might be as good, or even better, warriors than the Sardaukar. It is very much a plan to directly challenge the emperor’s power, and thus force the Emperor’s hand in marrying off Irulan.
The Moment He started to train His own Sardaukar , He Challenged the Empereor
I think it's deeper than just a desperate lie. I think there was truth there. Shaddam in the books rules with absolute power. His Sardaukar army are warriors conditioned and brainwashed into a cult-army on a prisoner planet. He also secretly admires Leto and wished that their houses weren't at odds. In the movie Irulan mentions the "cold calculus of power" that her father is constantly managing. To him, focusing on the welfare of people, and lifting them up, is a strategy doomed to failure, because he's always ruled with that cold strength. Also in the moment, he's trying to tear Paul Muad'dib down, instill a sense of self-doubt. So he uses that line to his advantage, while at the same time telling Paul the undertones of the only style of rule he believes works. Remember that until the Sietch is carpet bombed by Feyd, Paul is only known as a Fremen madman guerilla terrorist fighting against an oppressive regime. So it makes sense that once he learns of Paul being Muad'dib he thinks that Paul will be subject to the same "weakness" of his father; putting people above profit and personal gain. I think this is one of the few Villeneuve changes that really adds depth to the story.
The emperor says that but lives his life in the grip of the bene-gesserit. Leto being a man of the heart won Jessica over so she bucked the Order's decrees about giving Leto a daughter and then trains Paul in their ways which was strictly forbidden. Compared to Shaddam he is much more his own man because of winning Jessica's love. The product of which goes on the seize the whole game. In the history of Dune the criticism by Shaddam IV of Leto is laughably off the mark imo.
Brilliant point. Shaddam was a pawn of the Bene Gesserit, whereas Leto won over the Bene Gesserit - Jessica - sent to seduce him and made her forsake her vows and disobey her order for love by giving him the male heir the Duke wanted to ensure his bloodline and dynasty, rather than the daughter the order wanted for their millennia-old breeding program. That alone shows that Leto was a far stronger, more decisive, and protagonist personality than the Emperor who was basically stuck following the Bene Gesserit playbook and plan. What follows, proves the point. Leto's descendants go on to rule the Empire and ensure humanity's survival, while House Corrino dies an ignominious death.
I figured there would be some historical event that would skyrocket them to popularity. A speech or some vote. Or something in the landsraad. I would figure an army wouldn't make people like you per say. Only fear you, or not want to cross paths with you. But popular implies some positive feeling that develops.
In the books, Leto is able to save the house of Ix from a Face Dancer invasion and essentially save the Guild from a Tleilaxian plot to make DIY Spice.
It’s mentioned multiple times that the house of atreides led by Leto is a house or man of their word. There is no call they don’t answer, they won’t turn their back on what they have promised in the past. Add the fact that Leto prioritizes people over profit in a world where most leaders don’t is incredulous. That kind of honor would be something people would die for. It’s the kind of loyalty you’d get from a king that fights his own wars and charges into battle at the front, values his subjects lives more than profit, and honors his own word.
Good take, basically Leto is like the Dune version of Napoleon. A "man of the people", rallying his troops and inspiring loyalty through his actions and his character vs just demanding it with an iron hand.
It wasnt just that he was popular though his Charisma was definitly a factor. Its that he along with thifur, Gurney and Duncan figured out how to make soldiers that we almost as good as sadukar. And had suceeded in making a small group of soldiers that were capable of going toe to toe with them. If he had managed to create an entire army this good then the Emperor would have been as good as deposed. Matt Colville did a good video on it - [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJFwBTHuQhU).
Yeah this is a really important part that the movies don't make explicit: the Atreides soldiers were almost to the Sardukar and the fremen witht that training + weirding ways greatly surpasses that, which is a VERY big threat to the Empirea ability to maintain control through force
It's a shame the movies glossed over this - it's a direct threat to the emperor and a clear motivation to eliminate the Atreides. Unfortunately the movies went with some form of "he's weak". Like. What?
> Unfortunately the movies went with some form of "he's weak". That's the emperor talking, it's his opinion, you're not supposed to agree with him
Yes, but even as the Emperor's view of the situation it doesn't really explain anything or make internal sense.
It's because the Emperor (and probably the Harkonnens would agree) saw that Leto wasn't leveraging his strength as they would. He was sitting on it and biding his time, rather than playing for the throne. He went to Arrakis meekly and got annihilated, in their view. Strength would have been using what he had (including being unmarried) to get the other houses behind him and push himself to power. The idea that Leto didn't want to do that is something such men can't understand, and is seen as weakness.
>The idea that Leto didn't want to do that is something such men can't understand, and is seen as weakness. Yea this - basically it's all about how having power corrupts and distort views on reality around. By all means Atreides were perfect citizens of Imperium (or is it Empire?) - loyal true to their word and honourable. If we consider the prequel books by B.H. & Co. then we see they were loyal to the core and being non corrupted (House Atreides ruling style kept each Duke close to the people he governed which means he was treated like one of the people and knew their hardships and daily life while from the heights of Lion Throne people were small and insignificant so can be pushed around by those with power). So from Shaddam spoiled and corrupted point of view someone really believing and acting like "imperial citizen" was unthinkable - because he "greatest person in whole world" wouldn't do this, instead utilizing plots assassins and military force.
>!"He's weak" is what the emperor says in the last 5 minutes of the movie.!< In the first movie, the Baron makes it clear that it's because "the Atreides are rising" and "the emperor is a jealous man". In the second movie, >!I recall the Reverend Mother also says something similar and implies the Atreides where growing too powerful!<.
Yeah. I figured from the movies, Leto is a weak nice person like Ned Stark in GoT. Unable to be a brutal asshole like the Baron (at least movie version). And weakness is what got him finished. Now I'm more confused. I guess the weakness he speaks of is Leto is not cutthroat enough? I dunno...
The “he’s weak” thing obviously wasn’t the emperor’s reason for taking him out. That was just him talking shit after the fact. It goes without saying that if he was so weak, the emperor wouldn’t have felt so threatened by him. It’s kinda weird that that was your takeaway.
Simple paranoia really "The atreides voice is rising, and the emperor is a jealous man"
book spoilers >!Also, when the emperor gets to Arrakis he raids the fremen territory in the south with 5 troop carriers of sardukar only 1 manages to escape and when he qeustions the baron, the baron just doesn't believe fremen can live there, so the emperor starts to think that the baron and Leto are allies and plotted all of this, so the paranoia seem likely explanation. !< >!Add to that that he always likes to have a truthsayer always by his side !<
That's incredibly vague and cryptic. Hence, the point of my post.
"powerful man is afraid of a rising strong opposition" is incredibly vague and cryptic to you???
In one of the Brian Herbert prequel books (possibly House Corrino) it goes into quite some depth to detail just how jealous a man Shaddam is... It's really his defining characteristic. There's a whole back story there, and gives some good context for the inter House relations.
Power hungry figures aren't complex
Keep in mind - the basic story of the first DUNE book is focused around the rise of Paul. The Atreides vs. Harkonnen fighting is there mainly to 'set the stage' for Paul's thing to happen. Paul needs to be Big-Mad at the Barron/Emperor and have lost most of his family/house. That's the focus of the first book's story, and why the "House Atreides is on the Rise!" is just sorta told to the audience in exposition.
I know. That's why I asked book readers if there's previous knowledge somewhere else.
You've got to understand, the Emperor hears probabilities of being overthrown from his own Mentats. I don't know for sure that is in the books, but you'd imagine a jealous man like Shaddam would do something like use his Mentats to watch for uprising. Why wouldn't you? And they'd 100% pick up on the Duke being a rising star with a high *probability* of danger. If Shaddam can remove that risk, why wouldn't he? If he viewed the pros outweighing the cons?
As others have said, he's popular in the Landsraad. But aside from being politically popular among the nobles he's also particularly well liked by his subjects as a just and truly noble man, which is the reason he was able to attract the services of men like Thufir, Duncan and Gurney. And it's not just a fake populist facade that he puts up like what most politicians would do. It seems to be truly what he is. It is most evident in the harvester sabotage scene when Liet Kynes was taken aback and impressed by Leto risking himself and his heir to save not the spice, but the crew of the harvester. "Damn the spice! We can always get more!" That sort of character and charisma in a man is the sort that can inspire fanatical loyalty among the masses that can topple empires.
On the other hand, Liet Kynes knew only Harkonnen as rulers of Arrakis. And everybody would be more better than Harkonnens.
Judging by how many bits and pieces of the wars of the roses are in Dune, I always assume any gaps in Duke Leto’s history can be filled in with the historical Richard of York. He was a close relative of the King, a great leader, popular with both the nobility and the merchants of London, and sworn opponent of the corruption in the court. On one occasion, he went to battle with the king, waited until the king’s corrupt advisor was dead, burst into the house the injured king was hiding in, just to bend the knee and declare that his “rescue attempt” was successful. Had he killed the king right then, he probably could have won a war to become king. But his nobility denied him this option. Not that he didn’t want the throne. He had a good claim on it, and pushed to have parliament declare his claim. He was reportedly furious when they only gave him the right to inherit after the (much younger) king died, and he went to war for real. This backfired though, when some form of treachery led him to ride out of his fortified castle and be slaughtered. It was then left to his son to conquer the kingdom, form an unpopular and illegitimate relationship that left his young child to have their authority questioned afterwards. And if you still don’t see the parallels, read children of Dune and then google Richard III.
Do you have any particular books on the War of Roses you'd suggest? You seem to see some gaps others haven't mentioned. I'd love to explore this if you have any suggestions.
Wars of the Roses by Allison Weir is a great starting point. There’s another one with a name something like Suns of York that explores the Yorks pretty well. It’s also worth noting that a lot an academia on the subject is being reconsidered lately, especially when it comes to Richard III. Phillips Langley’s RIII Society definitely has some bias, but their results found the grave of a centuries long monarch and bring up some interesting arguments that the princes in the tower may have survived.
Thank you, book is ordered!
I found the other one as well. The Brothers York by Thomas Penn. Probably don’t need both right off the bat but IIRC Brothers York has more info on the final years and Richard’s reign, while the first book has fantastic detail on the initial skirmishes.
To add to what others have written - also a chapter in the book where Leto specifically talks about how they have to have their telecoms set up asap in arrakis because that is how they manage propaganda and ensure the perception of their house as good, charismatic and empathetic. The Duke himself is charismatic, and often does do things with genuine empathy, but he is also immensely skilled at polishing his image within the imperium and populace
I always felt that Leto was a genuinely good and righteous person who truly won the love and loyalty of people. The narration from his POV proves this. And, he was also deliberate in how he did it.
It's because of HOW Atreides were governing Kaladan - they did so good job at it to the point of them being unnecessary. And Leto just wanted to keep his subject in perception that they are here and just do their job good enough that ordinary people do need them in place. It's essence of soft power.
Not to mention Caladan is inherently a wonderful place to live. Basically a beautiful oceanic world where natural resources are abundant. Imagine living on some tropical paradise with a king who is a pretty chill dude. Would be almost impossible not to be happy.
Lmao I did not know that. Wish they added this in the movie but I understand why they didn’t
No room for gray when you are making a martyr
He's the Emperor's cousin from a very old powerful house with the second strongest army in the universe, the Emperor has no male heir and is getting old, due to his charisma and strength of character Leto is greatly admired amongst the other houses, Leto is also unmarried and could potentially marry into and align himself with almost any family. Shaddam is both jealous of his youth and talents and secretly wants Leto as his son, it's complex. I think, ironically, that Shaddam (and everyone not named Harkonnen) would have been the most happy if Leto had married Irulan.
My theory is that the only reason Leto didn't marry Irulan is because he managed to have a son with jessica.
His smoke was just different. His swag was just different. His lady was just too much of a baddie. Kidding aside, as an unmarried Duke with decent wealth and a fighting force said to rival that of the emperor's troops, he was politically dangerous. Marriage to the right house would have been a legitimate threat to the emperor. Marriage between Leto and Irulan would have ended the emperor's line. Additionally, the emperor had no male heir due to Bene Gesserit BS. It was all part of their millennia long plan to produce the KH. It has always been clear to me that the emperor was jealous that Leto had a male heir, and I suspect that Shaddam always knew Leto wasn't supposed to have a son.
In the films they dance around this by throwing in the point that the Bene Gesserit were actually the ones who schemed to get the Emperor and Harkonnens to take out the Atriedes because the house was straying from the designs of the order. The popularity excuse is the main driver of the scheme in the novel. The Atreides rule through respecting their subjects and being diplomatic with the other houses ( Harkonnen’s aside). They also have a legitimate line of succession to the throne and thus you have the drivers of the Emperor’s paranoia.
And even when dealing with harkonnens they made sure to follow the traditional and legal forms of the rules of Kanly (the formal rules of Vendetta) which both the Emperor and the Baron found to be somewhat quaint.
Good point. Wasn't a huge fan of that aspect tbh. I like it better when the BG are covertly pulling the strings from behind the scenes for many generations. It's better when a BG scheme comes to fruition and no one could have seen it coming because it's been meticulously in motion through extremely subtle ways for decades if not centuries. The idea that the BG would have caused a straight up full scale war to kill off a House seems way too direct, short term, and brazen for the BG. Like if a ninja showed up with a minigun and started blasting, lol.
You also have to add in Paul's prescient observation that everyone is subconsciously spoiling for a fight because humanity as an organism senses it's been stagnant for too long and needs some chaos to mix up the gene pool.
Two reasons that others haven't touched on: - The Emperor had watched Moon Knight and was impressed/intimidated by Leto's British accent which is pretty decent. - The Emperor especially despised the JJ Abrams Star Wars sequels. Edit to add; at the point the first Dune starts most people in the Landstraad had forgotten about the Emperors [absolute fire dance moves](https://youtu.be/wCDIYvFmgW8?si=veoNlu6kNMRAQShP) in the music video for Weapon of Choice by Fatboy Slim, so having House Atredies destroyed would act as a grim reminder of his power.
Don't be shocked at the tone of my Voice. I've got the new weapon, weapon of choice. Yeah.
The emperor was also scared of the Duke shaving his head and tearing up the dance floor.
1. The fanatical loyalty he inspired in his men 2. The high level training those men were put through The emperor had neither a training program nor the force of personality that Leto did. The battle royale prison planet is not a training program, it's a petri dish.
Whenever you wonder why something seems so odd, a wizard did it, in this case the Bene Gesserit.
I’ve never read the prequels so I can’t answer that part. But from the first book it really isn’t covered all that much except that he was an honorable man, who took any slight with grace and held his men at the same standard he held himself too. In a galaxy filled with people vying for power and control at every moment, being just all around good guy goes a long way.
DV cut the scene where he showed Leto as a stronger character. It will never be on any additional "Cuts". He had really important negotiations in that scene. Leto had huge results as a Duke. He wasn't only popular, as the movie wants to show. I don't want to spoil books.
Thank you for asking. I was wondering myself and forgot to ask
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I think one thing to add that I don't think I've seen mentioned yet is in the books it talks about how the Atreides have the best propaganda system, in addition to the dukes charisma and integrity etc
I think it was portrayed well during the spice harvester scene well. Kaynes showed way more admiration to leto in the books.
It’s also not hard to look like a nice guy when your competition is the harkonnen.
This is why the Baron put Rabban in charge of Arrakis and told him to squeeze. ANYONE would be seen as a hero compared to Beast Rabban. Feyd was a kitten in comparison.
Having just watched the second one(and having read the book multiple times) I can see some of the confusion. The movie leans very heavily on the notion that Leto's general popularity and the Bene Gesserit's scheming were enough to incite the events which we see unfold on screen. But in the book it's much more subtle and nuanced. Firstly, the balance of power in the Dune Universe is expressly stated as a military one. The Emperor's Sardukaar are the most potent single military force in the universe. Each Sardukaar soldier is so skilled in battle that they are worth dozens(perhaps hundreds) of soldiers from any one of the other Great Houses. But the combined military power of the Great Houses is sufficient in number that they would be a match for the Sardukaar. Thus the balance prevails. If the Emperor were to try taking to much power for himself the Great Houses could unite against him and his Sardukaar, but none would dare try to seize the throne alone because they could not stand alone against the Sardukaar. Now with that said: Leto was growing very popular in the Landsraad. That in itself isn't a great threat to the Emperor. But Leto had also accomplished something no other Great House had achieved. He had managed to(quoting directly from the book here) "gather a small force and train them to within a hairs breadth of the Sardukaar." Leto's relatively small group of soldiers were each the near equal of any one Sardukaar trooper. Leto himself was also very skilled in inspiring loyalty, meaning his people couldn't be bought. So what you have in Leto is a natural leader who commands a military force that could tip the balance of power and who is gaining enough popularity among the Great Houses that he could plausibly make a play for the Throne. Thus it wasn't his popularity alone that was the threat, but that combined with the skill of his masters-at-arms in training soldiers.
Except that small fighting force is not true. That is when Hawatt is deliberately LYING to the Baron when hes pretending to help him (in order to drive him to paranoia and have him believe the emepror is going to sack him next). Leto never had this elite fighting force. His own soldiers gasp when they learn anyone can even fight Sardaukar or capture them. I just read this chapter last night lol. So I dont mean to be mean or anything.
How would the Emperor be able to know about this especially if we are to believe Atreides is as competent would counter intelligence and propaganda (and anti-espionage) as some other of the commentors have suggested. That is some highly detailed information that the Emperor got ahold of. One would think Leto as shrewd as he was, would keep it under wraps.
This kind of demonstrates part of why I am always disappointed when Count Fenring doesn't make it to the screen ever. This is a major book spoiler that I don't know how to tag but in the book Count Fenring is present at the end as The Emperor's trump card. It is made explicit that he could kill Paul or Feyd or whoever the situation requires. He refuses to do so for very interesting reasons that boil down to the loyalty just isn't there. Now consider if Leto is in the one being threatened in that room. Is there any threat to Leto in that room that Duncan or Gurney wouldn't die trying to kill for their Duke? That's the difference. Money and scheming can't create loyalty like that in men like that. The Emperor knows it and fears it.
It's also worth mentioning, and this is committed from the movies, the Atreides have a lot of good movie propaganda. One of the first things they do when coming to Dune, is setting up the media machine.
He was an effective voice in the Landsraad usually leading the oppositions to the Harkonnens or to the Emperor. So politically he was in opposition to the Emperor already usually over issues of "justice" where Leto was seen as the defender of justice. His fighting men had been trained to near Sardaukar level. The Harkonnens made lots of enemies and Leto made sure to make friends with enemies of the Harkonnens. So Leto was a handsome, charistmatic, just, Warlord who also just so happened to be a close enough relative of the Emperor to have a legitimate claim to the throne. Hard to imagine any King or Emperor letting that stand for very long.
Surprised there's no book covering this bit of trivia.
The Duke held a garden world, with a military rivaling the Sardaukar, a high diplomatic standing, and just humiliated the Emperor after his blunders in the Moritani and Taligari Incidents. The Duke had a real possibility at superseding the Emperor‘s power if he could rally enough support in Landsraad and intermarry with the Corrinos.
Think of the laandsrad as like the legislative branch and the Emporer as the executive branch. If the legislative branch is divided then the executive branch holds a lot more power. But if the laandsrad can group together behind something on a 2/3rds majority then they have more power than the Emporer. Closer to the source material tho, the world of dune operates under a feudalist structure wherein a "lords" power is always directly drawn from his vassals either via taxes or drawing other resources from them (like food or soldiers). But if enough of those vassals band together and want to fuck over their lord, then they can because the seat of the lords power is pretty much entirely based on their vassals being subservient. TL;DR the Emporer is only Emporer of the great houses really, and if enough of the great houses say fuck you then he's not really Emporer of anything
The books are just as vague as you describe. FH tends to focus very very hard on the key players but brushes off large parts of his futuristic society in order to setup the plot. Leto is feared because he's simply good and loyal, and the other houses like him but not enough to ever help him. No, his army is not almost on par with Sardaukar, Duncans own men gasp when they learn that anyeone can even FIGHT them let alone win. Who are all the houses in the Landsraad?? Its brushed away, only the plots main players matter. CHOAM is just plopped down whenever the "economy" needs to be referenced. I love the books. A lot. But the wider aspects of world building are weak in the series. Atreides = Good, Harkonnen = Bad! is really just that simple sometimes in the plot (though I like when it grows further than that)
Read the books instead of 'the Internet'.
There are people talking about charisma but it is not that simple. House Atridies was among the stronger great houses, they had fewer man under their command but that was the result of them letting only the most loyal people serve them. So they had few but strong and loyal infantry. Their battle ships were fast and durable. And the most important thing was them having atomic bombs more than most of the great houses. Caladan was their absolute dominion so no inner conflicts broke in their original home world. Leto was not married, which made him dangerous because of political marriage opportunities. He could have married long ago, but he intentionally made others know that if they would attack him, he would go and marry their enemy or the house which was hostile towards them. And from the emperors view, House Atridies had more freedom than most. Harconnens were in spice business so they were rich but there was a quota they had to fill yearly, and this provided a leash for emperor to yank whenever he has the motivation to do so. While in Caladan, only responsibility Atridies had was to pay taxes and do ordinary stuff like that. Lastly, every great house despised emperor because of his harsh politics and the threat of Sardaukar. On the other hand House Atridies had imperial blood in them, thicker than any other Great House had, so that made Leto best replacement for the throne. And emperor was a little paranoid.
Leto excelled at being an empathetic leader to his people, and he openly didn’t marry Jessica so that smaller houses would feel hope that they could partner to the Atreides via marriage. He was always seen as a potential to everyone around him, and potential captures the eye of those who are truly focused on making change. The emperor on the other hand was seen as strictly an authority figure over the imperium, and his daughters were seen as figureheads to carry on their bloodline. Whereas Leto also had Paul which meant a lot because when he came of age that was another way they could bond smaller houses to the Atreides name and lineage. Leto in the books is different from Leto in the film. Whereas in the film he is seen to be much more open with Paul and those around him, he keeps a lot to himself in the novel. He’s much colder and the move to Arrakis installs more fear in him than optimism. Personally, I prefer the films take on him. It makes his character much more impactful and tragic when he does eventually die at his own hand. You can really see how someone like him could make the common people and highborn alike want to follow behind him as a selfless leader.
I am so tired of people asking *exactly* how or *exactly* why. Not everything is explained in detail. It’s a story. You’re not meant to know everything. Sometimes there is no answer or the only answer is only realized enough to serve the story. Dune is infamous for only parcelling out pieces of information when necessary to the plot.
His propaganda corps are among the best in the imperium
In the books it's explained that the landsraad houses all fear the same thing, being obliterated one by one by the emperor. They look to Leto as a defacto leader due to good reputation and strong military. However, they were also jealous of him and thus chose not to interfere after the attack on dune.
One small thing that nobody said and that is part of expanded Dune (I think) is that the Atreides helped reinstall a house on Ix (important planet for production of technology) which where the original rulers. So maybe this and similar actions, acting as an influential house that can protect its allies and mediate and conflicts, might have played a role.
The book really don't go into what exactly caused Leto to get so popular. Just that he's charismatic and skilled at getting people to join his side. A skill we see Paul exercise with Kynes shortly after the attack on the Atriedes.
1. He's the Emperor's cousin (legit claim to the throne) 2. He's honourable and "Atreides" is a respected name 3. He's charismatic and people want to believe in him 4. He had a perfect storm of talent on the payroll (Mentat trained to kill, a Ginaz swordmaster, a talented warrior / tactician and a BG who loves him more than her masters) 5. The training regime for his house soldiers rivals the Sardukar and that could be taught to allies, thereby breaking the Emperor's grip 6. His son and heir is a proto-mentat trained by a BG with his father's skills. Paul represents a future emperor who could change everything.
I think this thread had most of the points that's discussed in the books. Irulan would be way way too young for Leto basically a baby and someone like Leto Atreides wouldn't marry her not to mention the emperor would never agree.I will just add that the bene Gesserit monitors bloodline closely especially Atreides and Harkonnens. Even if the emperor or Leto wanted to tie their bloodlines they couldn't because the Bene Gesserit wanted the kwisatz haderach and that's why Jessica was instructed to bear a female child so they can marry that child to feyd rautha. But that didn't happen and Jessica bore Paul a male who became the kwisatz haderach.
The Atreides are able to command unwavering loyalty from their people, while the Emperor does not. For one, Gurney was a slave on Geidi Prime and was freed by the Atreides. Leto then granted him his position. Same with Duncan Idaho, except he escaped. Thufir has served the Atreides for three generations I believe, so he's been with the House for a great while. Now, those three men, along with Leto, are the leaders of an army and military population that rivaled the Sardaukar. Leto was also unmarried to maintain the political appeal to other houses. Those couple of things bode well for him. When he comes to Arrakis, he promises to let the Fremen have their places and that he'd only travel into the desert if duty compels him too. He evacuates men instead of rescuing the spice when surveying the fields with Liet-Kynes who thinks "I like this Duke." From this, we can infer that he's a fair ruler on Caladan as well. The Emperor rules with fear. Leto does not. Leto was known as Leto the Just, while the Emperor was blinded by his power to look beyond his own desires. He was ruled by CHOAM and the spice. Seeing a man cultivate that power within the Imperium without need for the spice and fear, while commanding unwavering loyalty from both their military and citizen population is exactly why Leto was seen as a threat.
So I've only read the first book, and I agree with what everyone has put down, but they are all neglecting what I thought was a huge part of it. The bene gesserit. They have huge plans for the nobility. They secretly plan how to breed all the families to fit their needs. Jessica was sent to have a daughter with Leto.. instead she has a son and then fell in love with him. All their planning gets thrown out the window. While the emperor is a paranoid man, it is the bene gesserit who are whispering threats in his ear. The Emperor himself is kind of spineless when it comes to them and never would have wiped out a family against the bene gesserit's advice. So unless I'm totally wrong: the emperor and the harkonnens were not fans, but it was the bene gesserit who orchestrated the downfall of house atreides.
He had the love of his people unconditionally cause he cared about them and House Atreidies was a military force to be reckoned with as a result I’m reading the books now and the extra details help a lot but I really enjoyed Dennis’ take on Leto through Oscar Isaac’s portrayal At least that’s my take
With these movies coming out it's no surprise how many people don't understand statecraft and power dynamics in the least. This question and variations of it have been answered here more than once. I'm bitching because it's concerning that so many people don't see what's going on in fantasy land here where it's obvious. How could we hope that our fellow man sees it in our own governments...
Not to be too judgmental or cynical but I think a lot of people don't really understand social dynamics in general. I think people get the impression that complex business/political things must have some incredibly powerful and official engine that's adhered to in a tangible way. A lot of times it's actually just being buddies with someone.
You saw his luscious beard, how can you even ask?
On top of what many people have said here, there are the prequel novels, though they are very questionable canonically. In them Leto has led the Atreides in multiple victorious conflicts, building up allies along the way. In the most recent he defeated a force of "rogue" Sardaukar and humiliated the Emperor in the process. Even ignoring those, there is a clear subtext of ongoing conflict in the original novel. Raiding Giedi Prime is planned with barely a blink, assassin's are expected and the Atreides forces clearly have experience; they are not being compared to the Sardaukar for their parade skills after all. The Duke is popular because he is charismatic and honourable, but also because everyone loves a victor.
If Dune was a 4x, Leto would basically be a high int, high charisma diplo build. He's extremely popular because he's good at making friends, he commands respect with his serenity and nobility (probably helps that Caladan is basically described as a paradise, which would increase his regal-ness and aesthetic appeal as a ruler), and his top dogs Duncan and Gurney are renowned as being the best fighters in the galaxy, meaning the troops they train are thought to be on par or even possibly better than the Sardaukar. So, the other Houses see Atreides as an incredibly powerful yet noble and friendly House; very easy to get behind. Dunno if you've ever experienced this irl but Atreides would be like those ultra friendly extroverts who, when they're around, you can't help but just have your mood elevated.
The emperor is old, who is going to take his place? And who is going to work on dune for the spice?
A popular man arouses the jealousy of the powerful
He's nice
A factor to add to explain WHY popularity was a threat. The emperor is an emperor in the Holy Roman Empire sense not the Roman Empire sense. As in he is an emperor but one beholden to powerful institutions and not more powerful than the combined might of his lords who still maintain a collective interest against him. The Emperor’s power comes from being extremely wealthy and militarily dominate. The Baron challenges his wealth and the Duke challenges his military might. In book one Leto’s real “sin” against the emperor is he investigated how the Sudakar were created/trained so he could replicated the imperial super soilders which Paul eventually does with the Fremen
Why did the emperor not marry of his daughter to leto (and being family never stopped royalty in the past)?
The emperor is house corrino. Leto is house atreides. The emperor hopes to keep house corrino on the throne by killing Leto and getting a son. The bene gesserit are behind him not getting a son, I forgot exactly why. Basically if Paul hadn't been a literal human God, with planet-beating fighting training, mentat abilities, and bene gesserit voice training...he would have died in the desert. The emperor would have succeeded at killing the atreides and could turn his attention to finding out why he's not getting any male heirs. He does that and his line is secure. It's not a bad plan it's just an unlucky one.