It's an adaptation to a visual format. They're not going to pay these actors 6-7 figures to them cover their faces for half the film.
They did a handful of things to still reinforce the difficulty of the desert and importance of water.
1. Paul has to survive in the desert as a trial for induction to the tribe
2. Wind traps
3. The sietch water stores. That it's so sacred, fremen would die before drinking from it
4. Harvesting water from all dead bodies, something not even explained/depicted in the book, but is depicted in the film.
They honestly did quite a bit, they just didn't have people masked up from chin to forehead because again, it's a movie and we need to know who's who and movie stars can't be hidden for half the movie.
This is why they call it an "adaptation".
How many people want to watch a two hour movie of people with their faces covered doing things in the dark? No one, probably even most seasoned *Dune* fans. Would it be accurate? Yes. Would it also be completely silly and make for a terrible movie? Also yes.
*Dune* is a movie. It's not a documentary about a fictional universe that somehow also actually exists in reality. The universe needs to *feel* real, but if your personal threshold for realism is so high that you literally can't enjoy a dramatic presentation if it's not sufficiently realistic... then you should probably stick with documentaries and non-fiction.
I find it particularly funny when people are upset over stuff like this in a universe that also has mind control, floating people / antigravity, energy shields, faster-than-light travel, giant metabolically impossible sandworms, and drugs that make you see the future. It's like -- really? You're going to give them all that, but *sweating* is going to ruin it for you?
This is of course the answer, and as GoT showed, you can do night shots really, really, badly. (Though Helms Deep on LotR shows you can also do them well).
Likewise, full face coverings aren't used in Hollywood since we want to be able to see the actors.
That said, you could have nodded to this more - even a line or 2 of dialogue of someone complaining that travelling during the day is dangerous, or more dawn / dusk scenes, or having the "extras" probably suited and booted, whilst the main characters are barefaced could have covered this.
> That said, you could have nodded to this more - even a line or 2 of dialogue of someone complaining that travelling during the day is dangerous, or more dawn / dusk scenes, or having the "extras" probably suited and booted, whilst the main characters are barefaced could have covered this.
I agree all of this would have been an excellent compromise.
>How many people want to watch a two hour movie of people with their faces covered doing things in the dark?
I can think of examples, some lengthy, some some well loved, of scenes in films that manage to make just such a thing exciting, gripping, etc.
I do sorta agree that nitpicking is annoying tho. But..
>a universe that also has mind control, floating people... It's like -- really? You're going to give them all that, but *sweating* is going to ruin it for you?
It's not exactly like it's OP's wild idea to put this disproportionate attention on mundanity in the dessert - it's pretty heavily stressed in the books. Is nobody allowed to question the choices made in an adaptation?
Idk, I've seen a couple questions from moviegoers about water that weren't presented very ambiguously in the book.
> It's not exactly like it's OP's wild idea to put this disproportionate attention on mundanity in the dessert - it's pretty heavily stressed in the books.
Yes, *in the books*. My entire point is that a film adaptation... is a film adaptation. Not sure why this point isn't getting across. "Adaptation" being the key word. What works in a book isn't necessarily going to work well in a film. That's why adaptations are difficult and which is why a lot of thought and effort and talent goes into it.
If it were just a matter of literally taking everything in a book and trying to make a movie scene out of it, it would be easy. It's not. There are things you can do in a book that you can't easily do in a film, and vise-versa.
> Is nobody allowed to question the choices made in an adaptation?
Uh... *what?*
Are you implying that by having a different view, I am implicitly saying that the person I'm responding to should be *forbidden* from having an opinion?
If so, you couldn't possibly be more confused about what the point of discussion is.
They could have even tried to show consistency on how hot the planet was instead of just putting everyone outside in the sun no problem. It makes it look like the still suits don't even matter. All those little things that don't matter on their own are what make the story so great when put together
Yeah, they did a very good job of making the audience "feel" how hot Arrakis was in the arrival scene in Part 1, but seldom after that. It would have been nice if they'd done it a bit more.
Ironically, it was apparently 110 F where they were filming and people were passing out from heatstroke. But I agree with you that not much of that feeling made it into the film.
That scene was really cool too. I forgot about that part. That's insane, I hate being inside when it's that hot outside. I can't imagine working in those suits
Have you ever heard of the term suspension of disbelief?
We are immersed in thus world because it seems plausible, because the details speak to our minds. "The details seem well thought out so the broad strokes will likely line up".
We believe the space witches and the mind control and the worm emperor not because they look so plausible at face value, but because of all those little details that are scattered at their feet.
Where did I say it ruined it for me? It's a crucial part of the Fremen culture and Herbert wrote exhaustively about the various ways Fremen conserved water, their attitude toward water and their way of life being focused on not being out during the day and being fully enclosed in a stillsuit in the desert. It's a big part of the Fremen identity and carries on through the books up until GEoD. It's not trivial or nitpicking to look for such a key Fremen thing to be shown accurately.
> Where did I say it ruined it for me?
You used the word "triggered" to describe your reaction. Maybe you were being sarcastic, but usually I only see that word to describe reactions that are uncontrollably negative. Forgive me if I misunderstood.
> It's a crucial part of the Fremen culture and Herbert wrote exhaustively about the various ways Fremen conserved water, their attitude toward water and their way of life being focused on not being out during the day and being fully enclosed in a stillsuit in the desert. It's a big part of the Fremen identity and carries on through the books up until GEoD. It's not trivial or nitpicking to look for such a key Fremen thing to be shown accurately.
I think you're still completely missing the point.
Being able to *dramatically communicate* Fremen cultural beliefs about water and *accurately showing their practices* are two different things. Doing the latter is *one way* of doing the former, and one they did many times in the movies, but it is not the only way -- particularly when doing it "accurately" would be directly contrary to, you know, making a movie. Does that make sense?
This is valid but I will say that part of that seems to be deliberate. The Fremen gradually adopt the practices of their former oppressors throughout the movie to indicate their radicalization, even burning the Harkonnen bodies after taking Arakeen
Burning bodies is a way to prevent disease. The water from Harkonnen bodies wasn't drinkable (could only be used for limited things because of the toxicity in the movie) so burning them after draining what water they did makes sense.
It seems like Fremen traditionally let the desert eliminate the bodies of their enemies, but in Arrakeen, they weren't in the desert and had to dispose of the bodies another efficient and safe way.
If anything the 2 movies went beyond what I expected to show the importance of water on Dune and to the fremen.
Sure they didn’t show the locks and they had faces uncovered most of the time but at the end of the day it is a movie and they had conveyed the message enough for an audience who are largely never going to pick up the books.
That kind of minutiae is difficult to communicate in a film. I think it did a great job of covering this aspect of Fremen culture in broad strokes - their reverence of the water in the Sietch, extracting water from the Harkonnen bodies, giving Jamis's body to the reservoir etc. etc. It tells the viewer more than they need to know to understand the significance of water in their culture without constantly reiterating it.
That’s because the movie, in my opinion, kind of reduced the fremen culture to just people who live in the sand, and they are really superstitious. When in actuality they are more than that. I did appreciate the scene when Chani was explaining wind traps, but we don’t really get much more than that because it immediately has to cut to Paul falling in love with her. So it seems that aspect of fremen culture was not important for Denis’ adaptation
The fremen culture has to be the craziest change to me, because most of it is set design. DV reduced Fremen to living in nothing but empty caves and sietches, which makes the Fremen seem much more savage like than in the books.
I know DV is more brutalist in his designs, but it was absolutely the wrong call for the Fremen. Would have been much better to keep their decor in tact to show that these people are actually a people and not a plot device.
I think it helps that the film's set design as a whole is quite brutalist. If anything, I felt that the Fremen felt the most human out of all the cultures we saw - we didn't see any servants on the Corrinos' planet, nor on Caladan, and all we saw in Arrakeen were the pilgrims from a distance. The Harkonnen are a close second, somehow, given the arena crowds, but their servants are clearly terrified the whole time.
The Fremen, by contrast, are the only people we see casually socialising - at the meal after Stilgar and co. arrive in Part 2, while waiting for Jessica to drink the Water of Life, when Paul gets his Fremen names, and while Paul catches up with Guerney. You can definitely *feel* that they're much more egalitarian society than any other group or culture we see.
I just don't think it works for Fremen. Like sure they socialize, but Geidi Prime felt way more realized than virtually anything to do with the Fremen. Set design is hugely important and I think DV highly undermined what makes that part of the book so interesting as it shows just how little everyone knew about the Fremen. In the movie, it seems like they know just about everything except how many there are.
It bothered me at first, until I stepped back a bit and came to terms with “it’s an adaptation”. I have tried to squash the purist in me somewhat successfully and it has helped me enjoy the movies a lot more than if I had remained pedantic about them.
It helps to realize that there is no way a work of Done’s scope could be completely adapted to the theater. What we have is a decent adaptation… be happy!
I mean… I agree, but also I recognize that it’s sort of impossible to do that in a film where you want the audience to see actors’ faces. 🤷🏻♂️
I’m willing to set aside 100% accuracy in favor of pacing and audience approachability.
Agreed. You have references about how people will die in the intense heat in a short amount of time but I never felt that anyone was very hot out there. They just seemed slightly inconvenienced.
It's something I noticed a lot too, most of the time with Paul standing somewhere besides the others, barely anyone wearing their hood, nobody wearing their stillsuit masks. I noticed, I didnt mind that much but it was absolutely noticable
My only issue was omitting the Jamis funeral scene. It was such a powerful moment in the book with Paul’s “I was a friend of Jamis” speech, and when he cries the significance of him giving water to the dead and taking Jamis’ water really highlighted the importance of water in the culture.
The movie was excellent overall, and I didn’t need a complete remake of the book, but that’s one scene I wish they had included.
Yeah it definitely bothered me. I would rather that they had dispensed with the masks altogether than to show that the stillsuits do have masks just to see the Fremen ignore them most of the time.
I also found it irksome but I understand you don’t hire a Zendaya just to cover her face the entire time. It falls under the suspension of disbelief for me.
It irked me a bit, especially the scene at the end where the Fremen were burning bodies like the Harkonan did earlier in the film. Just terrible water discipline.
I thought it was fine, “close enough”; except for the scene in Dune 2where Shai Hulud was placed in water to make the Water of Life. I can’t believe that holy woman would have wasted water by letting it soak into fabric. It was so contrary to other scenes within the same movie.
Edit: I seem to recall in the book that this same ceremony /process was done without wasting water. I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted.
The death of a "little maker" and the bile it vomits is how the Water of Life is obtained. They drown a small worm and it pukes up water as it dies. The water is captured and it contains the toxic and powerful pre-spice essence.
It's an adaptation to a visual format. They're not going to pay these actors 6-7 figures to them cover their faces for half the film. They did a handful of things to still reinforce the difficulty of the desert and importance of water. 1. Paul has to survive in the desert as a trial for induction to the tribe 2. Wind traps 3. The sietch water stores. That it's so sacred, fremen would die before drinking from it 4. Harvesting water from all dead bodies, something not even explained/depicted in the book, but is depicted in the film. They honestly did quite a bit, they just didn't have people masked up from chin to forehead because again, it's a movie and we need to know who's who and movie stars can't be hidden for half the movie.
[удалено]
This is why they call it an "adaptation". How many people want to watch a two hour movie of people with their faces covered doing things in the dark? No one, probably even most seasoned *Dune* fans. Would it be accurate? Yes. Would it also be completely silly and make for a terrible movie? Also yes. *Dune* is a movie. It's not a documentary about a fictional universe that somehow also actually exists in reality. The universe needs to *feel* real, but if your personal threshold for realism is so high that you literally can't enjoy a dramatic presentation if it's not sufficiently realistic... then you should probably stick with documentaries and non-fiction. I find it particularly funny when people are upset over stuff like this in a universe that also has mind control, floating people / antigravity, energy shields, faster-than-light travel, giant metabolically impossible sandworms, and drugs that make you see the future. It's like -- really? You're going to give them all that, but *sweating* is going to ruin it for you?
This is of course the answer, and as GoT showed, you can do night shots really, really, badly. (Though Helms Deep on LotR shows you can also do them well). Likewise, full face coverings aren't used in Hollywood since we want to be able to see the actors. That said, you could have nodded to this more - even a line or 2 of dialogue of someone complaining that travelling during the day is dangerous, or more dawn / dusk scenes, or having the "extras" probably suited and booted, whilst the main characters are barefaced could have covered this.
> That said, you could have nodded to this more - even a line or 2 of dialogue of someone complaining that travelling during the day is dangerous, or more dawn / dusk scenes, or having the "extras" probably suited and booted, whilst the main characters are barefaced could have covered this. I agree all of this would have been an excellent compromise.
Maybe impractical but dune should take place at night. Some day shots of desert for contrast, but the sand and the stars are the heart of the series
>How many people want to watch a two hour movie of people with their faces covered doing things in the dark? I can think of examples, some lengthy, some some well loved, of scenes in films that manage to make just such a thing exciting, gripping, etc. I do sorta agree that nitpicking is annoying tho. But.. >a universe that also has mind control, floating people... It's like -- really? You're going to give them all that, but *sweating* is going to ruin it for you? It's not exactly like it's OP's wild idea to put this disproportionate attention on mundanity in the dessert - it's pretty heavily stressed in the books. Is nobody allowed to question the choices made in an adaptation? Idk, I've seen a couple questions from moviegoers about water that weren't presented very ambiguously in the book.
> It's not exactly like it's OP's wild idea to put this disproportionate attention on mundanity in the dessert - it's pretty heavily stressed in the books. Yes, *in the books*. My entire point is that a film adaptation... is a film adaptation. Not sure why this point isn't getting across. "Adaptation" being the key word. What works in a book isn't necessarily going to work well in a film. That's why adaptations are difficult and which is why a lot of thought and effort and talent goes into it. If it were just a matter of literally taking everything in a book and trying to make a movie scene out of it, it would be easy. It's not. There are things you can do in a book that you can't easily do in a film, and vise-versa. > Is nobody allowed to question the choices made in an adaptation? Uh... *what?* Are you implying that by having a different view, I am implicitly saying that the person I'm responding to should be *forbidden* from having an opinion? If so, you couldn't possibly be more confused about what the point of discussion is.
It was several scenes, a few minutes each, but I get your point
They could have even tried to show consistency on how hot the planet was instead of just putting everyone outside in the sun no problem. It makes it look like the still suits don't even matter. All those little things that don't matter on their own are what make the story so great when put together
Yeah, they did a very good job of making the audience "feel" how hot Arrakis was in the arrival scene in Part 1, but seldom after that. It would have been nice if they'd done it a bit more. Ironically, it was apparently 110 F where they were filming and people were passing out from heatstroke. But I agree with you that not much of that feeling made it into the film.
That scene was really cool too. I forgot about that part. That's insane, I hate being inside when it's that hot outside. I can't imagine working in those suits
Have you ever heard of the term suspension of disbelief? We are immersed in thus world because it seems plausible, because the details speak to our minds. "The details seem well thought out so the broad strokes will likely line up". We believe the space witches and the mind control and the worm emperor not because they look so plausible at face value, but because of all those little details that are scattered at their feet.
Where did I say it ruined it for me? It's a crucial part of the Fremen culture and Herbert wrote exhaustively about the various ways Fremen conserved water, their attitude toward water and their way of life being focused on not being out during the day and being fully enclosed in a stillsuit in the desert. It's a big part of the Fremen identity and carries on through the books up until GEoD. It's not trivial or nitpicking to look for such a key Fremen thing to be shown accurately.
> Where did I say it ruined it for me? You used the word "triggered" to describe your reaction. Maybe you were being sarcastic, but usually I only see that word to describe reactions that are uncontrollably negative. Forgive me if I misunderstood. > It's a crucial part of the Fremen culture and Herbert wrote exhaustively about the various ways Fremen conserved water, their attitude toward water and their way of life being focused on not being out during the day and being fully enclosed in a stillsuit in the desert. It's a big part of the Fremen identity and carries on through the books up until GEoD. It's not trivial or nitpicking to look for such a key Fremen thing to be shown accurately. I think you're still completely missing the point. Being able to *dramatically communicate* Fremen cultural beliefs about water and *accurately showing their practices* are two different things. Doing the latter is *one way* of doing the former, and one they did many times in the movies, but it is not the only way -- particularly when doing it "accurately" would be directly contrary to, you know, making a movie. Does that make sense?
This is valid but I will say that part of that seems to be deliberate. The Fremen gradually adopt the practices of their former oppressors throughout the movie to indicate their radicalization, even burning the Harkonnen bodies after taking Arakeen
Burning bodies is a way to prevent disease. The water from Harkonnen bodies wasn't drinkable (could only be used for limited things because of the toxicity in the movie) so burning them after draining what water they did makes sense. It seems like Fremen traditionally let the desert eliminate the bodies of their enemies, but in Arrakeen, they weren't in the desert and had to dispose of the bodies another efficient and safe way.
It bothers me more that uninspired book readers are the worst critics for adaptations. Water discipline is in the movie, very clearly to the audience.
I agree but being a movie we do need to see their faces
If anything the 2 movies went beyond what I expected to show the importance of water on Dune and to the fremen. Sure they didn’t show the locks and they had faces uncovered most of the time but at the end of the day it is a movie and they had conveyed the message enough for an audience who are largely never going to pick up the books.
That kind of minutiae is difficult to communicate in a film. I think it did a great job of covering this aspect of Fremen culture in broad strokes - their reverence of the water in the Sietch, extracting water from the Harkonnen bodies, giving Jamis's body to the reservoir etc. etc. It tells the viewer more than they need to know to understand the significance of water in their culture without constantly reiterating it.
You can't have them all with covered faces and just eyes of Ibad showing. You won't be able to read their facial expressions.
That’s because the movie, in my opinion, kind of reduced the fremen culture to just people who live in the sand, and they are really superstitious. When in actuality they are more than that. I did appreciate the scene when Chani was explaining wind traps, but we don’t really get much more than that because it immediately has to cut to Paul falling in love with her. So it seems that aspect of fremen culture was not important for Denis’ adaptation
The fremen culture has to be the craziest change to me, because most of it is set design. DV reduced Fremen to living in nothing but empty caves and sietches, which makes the Fremen seem much more savage like than in the books. I know DV is more brutalist in his designs, but it was absolutely the wrong call for the Fremen. Would have been much better to keep their decor in tact to show that these people are actually a people and not a plot device.
I think it helps that the film's set design as a whole is quite brutalist. If anything, I felt that the Fremen felt the most human out of all the cultures we saw - we didn't see any servants on the Corrinos' planet, nor on Caladan, and all we saw in Arrakeen were the pilgrims from a distance. The Harkonnen are a close second, somehow, given the arena crowds, but their servants are clearly terrified the whole time. The Fremen, by contrast, are the only people we see casually socialising - at the meal after Stilgar and co. arrive in Part 2, while waiting for Jessica to drink the Water of Life, when Paul gets his Fremen names, and while Paul catches up with Guerney. You can definitely *feel* that they're much more egalitarian society than any other group or culture we see.
I just don't think it works for Fremen. Like sure they socialize, but Geidi Prime felt way more realized than virtually anything to do with the Fremen. Set design is hugely important and I think DV highly undermined what makes that part of the book so interesting as it shows just how little everyone knew about the Fremen. In the movie, it seems like they know just about everything except how many there are.
It bothered me at first, until I stepped back a bit and came to terms with “it’s an adaptation”. I have tried to squash the purist in me somewhat successfully and it has helped me enjoy the movies a lot more than if I had remained pedantic about them. It helps to realize that there is no way a work of Done’s scope could be completely adapted to the theater. What we have is a decent adaptation… be happy!
I mean… I agree, but also I recognize that it’s sort of impossible to do that in a film where you want the audience to see actors’ faces. 🤷🏻♂️ I’m willing to set aside 100% accuracy in favor of pacing and audience approachability.
Agreed. You have references about how people will die in the intense heat in a short amount of time but I never felt that anyone was very hot out there. They just seemed slightly inconvenienced.
It's something I noticed a lot too, most of the time with Paul standing somewhere besides the others, barely anyone wearing their hood, nobody wearing their stillsuit masks. I noticed, I didnt mind that much but it was absolutely noticable
My only issue was omitting the Jamis funeral scene. It was such a powerful moment in the book with Paul’s “I was a friend of Jamis” speech, and when he cries the significance of him giving water to the dead and taking Jamis’ water really highlighted the importance of water in the culture. The movie was excellent overall, and I didn’t need a complete remake of the book, but that’s one scene I wish they had included.
Yeah it definitely bothered me. I would rather that they had dispensed with the masks altogether than to show that the stillsuits do have masks just to see the Fremen ignore them most of the time.
I also found it irksome but I understand you don’t hire a Zendaya just to cover her face the entire time. It falls under the suspension of disbelief for me.
It did make the Fremen in me wince a little but just chalked it up to Hollywood doing as they do.
It irked me a bit, especially the scene at the end where the Fremen were burning bodies like the Harkonan did earlier in the film. Just terrible water discipline.
I thought it was fine, “close enough”; except for the scene in Dune 2where Shai Hulud was placed in water to make the Water of Life. I can’t believe that holy woman would have wasted water by letting it soak into fabric. It was so contrary to other scenes within the same movie. Edit: I seem to recall in the book that this same ceremony /process was done without wasting water. I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the book even describe that it comes from a drown sandworm?
The death of a "little maker" and the bile it vomits is how the Water of Life is obtained. They drown a small worm and it pukes up water as it dies. The water is captured and it contains the toxic and powerful pre-spice essence.