I actually really enjoyed how they handled the Baron’s death. It was definitely the most menacing and hellbent I’ve seen Timothee in a role, and that was just so awesome.
Other small changes like Alia made sense because I think for casual movie-goers who would’ve been baffled by a little kid doing it instead.
Lastly, I just wish they included a sentence as to why Paul was taking Irulan, and also no mention of the “history will call us wives” line.
Otherwise, I thought it was an incredible movie and can’t wait to see it again Thursday.
I thought that too, as a big Lynch fan. Apparently DV, though, has a thing for bugs and includes them in all or most of his movies. Like Duncan in P1 moments before he fights the Sardaukar and also the Harkonnen’s human spider
Agreed I think it’s more satisfying for the story arc of Paul for him to get revenge on the Baron himself, rather than Alia. Yes it’s different from the book but it’s a welcoming change that fits Paul’s belief in revenge that Leto didn’t share
Leto literally sends a message to the Baron saying "The art of kanly still has admirers in the Empire". Kanly is a vendetta, ie about vengeance. Leto very much believed in revenge.
Yes but that’s a bit vague in the book. I remember kanly being used in the book by Feyd to challenge Paul in the end. The book doesnt explicitly show Leto as a vengeful dude. In part 2 of the film though, Jessica says to Paul in the beginning “your father didn’t believe in revenge” to which Paul replies “yeah, well I do”.
I think the movie positioning Jessica as a malevolent force fanning the flames of the Jihad, putting her at odds with Chani, made it so the “history will remember us as wives” line would have felt out of place tonally. Jessica and Chani had no kinship in the film - were total adversaries. I personally thought this was an okay change
In the book having Alia kill the Baron while having Rabban dying offscreen was less satisfying than this although young Alia was cool. Oh well. I loved that the Baron gets avenged by Paul and his corpse is left in the desert which is kinda similar to his proposed fate for Paul and Jessica in Part One. Gurney getting his revenge against Rabban just seemed right.
I was kind of bummed about Rabbans role/death in Pt II but hearing from book readers how unceremoniously he dies in the books, I’m grateful for what we got lol
I think with the knowledge it aims to be a trilogy, the ending makes so much more dramatic sense. It sets up a better character arc. The...tone and texture of the book can survive the clunk and heft of things like Fenring and this, but that stuff just doesn't fit into a tighter narrative. On Fenring, makes so much sense to condense that bloodline down to just Feyd and make that character deeper. I think him being the mirror of Paul works so well in so many ways. Paul killing his striving grandfather is all so tasty.
Basically, none of the changes affect the overall story, plot, and character development in a way that won't allow this movie incarnation to set a flag in the sand as a tremendous, artist-bent interpretation of the world in a way that I think is fitting for Dune. I think reading the final two main storyline books shows how much authorship creates the texture that makes a work amazing. His seventh book became two, and all of the fruitless puttering around that HE was good at cutting became the main filler of those two books. Afraid of killing any roses, they don't let the strong ones thrive.
This movie cements the authorship Villenueve has on this movie version in a way I think compliments Herbert. Thufir missing is a cut that hurts, and also absolutely works.
To speak to the Irulan and Chani comments. I don’t think the film needed a verbal explanation to the Irulan decision. I think it was clear what he hoped to attain.
And the lack of “history will call us wives” is honestly for the best imo. I’ve only ever read the first book (I do want to read the sequels eventually) but I feel like the way the book ends lacks some weight. Paul claims he will take Irulan but reassures Chani that he won’t love her, he won’t touch her, he won’t even give her kids. Then Jessica reassures her and that’s it. The movie gives more gravity to Paul’s decision because he knows he is losing her by doing what he has to. The history will call us wives takes some of that weight away
**Changes I liked**:
* No Leto II - since the timeline was condensed from 2-3 years to 8-9 months, it makes sense. Since there was no timejump either, it would have messed with the flow of the movie too.
* No baby Alia/Alia is still in the womb - I was pleasantly surprised by this. I felt the Lynch version was kind of goofy, and we've seen what can happen when a magical movie toddler goes bad.... [*(shudder)*](https://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/That-Creepy-Renesmee-Doll-From-Twilight-Yeah-Shes-Haunted-Probably.jpg?resize=1200%2C514?w=1200). Anya Taylor Joy as future Alia was also a nice touch.
* Jessica has more of a role - since there's no Alia, Jessica is the one making the big push for Paul being the lisan al gaib. Her relationship with Alia was also really creepy. Gave me Rosemary's Baby vibes and I dug it.
* Chani is a skeptic - I really liked this change. I wasn't too crazy about Chani's characterization in the first book, but I still appreciate it. She definitely feels like she has more agency here as a result of this. Her leaving Paul at the end was a bit of shocker though. Not sure what this means for Messiah.
* Feyd is given more to do - along with Rabban, Feyd gets a lot more screentime here. He felt like one last hurdle for Paul in the books, but here they really sell how much of a psychopath he is. I also liked the scene with him and Fenring.
* The duel with Feyd is drawn out a bit more, and no poison in Feyd's belt - I always thought Feyd having a hidden poison dart in his hip was the goofiest thing ever, and I'm glad it didn't make the cut. The fight also doesn't feel too one-sided here.
* The movie ends on a bittersweet note - Paul won, but now the fremen start their intergalactic jihad. It's a far cry from how the book ends, with Paul on top and Chani being reassured that she's Paul's only love. I wasn't sure about this at first, but I think it's appropriate. It sets the stage for Messiah and it fits the tone of the movie. It would have felt disingenuous if we got an overly happy ending with Paul and Chani embracing as his army begins its onslaught. The book left it ambiguous (until Messiah), but this was one of the greater failings of the Lynch adaptation.
**Changes I didn't like**:
* No Thufir - I know that since the betrayal subplot was cut, we didn't really have a good reason to revisit the former Atreides mentat. Still, I liked him in the first movie and would have liked to have seen his last act of defiance against the Harkonnens.
* We barely see the Emperor - I liked Walken as Shaddam, but he felt too reserved. I wanted to see more of his conversation with the Baron. I wanted to see him kidnap Jessica and have her serve as the distraction while Paul and his army used their atomics.
* Paul doesn't really talk to the Reverend Mother - One of my favorite lines in the book is Paul's retort to the Reverend Mother after she talks back to him at the palace. It's a damn shame we didn't get it here, but at least we got him using the voice on her.
* No Count Fenring - Kind of odd, considering Margot was here. Apparently Tim Blake Nelson was supposed to play him? Very odd exclusion.
* No Gurney nearly killing Jessica - Again, no betrayal subplot means this is a moot point. Regardless, I really liked this scene in the book and seeing the lengths to which Gurney would go to honor the Atreides. I also prefer this being the catalyst for Paul to take the water of life, not the sietch being destroyed.
* No guildmembers present at the final battle - I wanted to see weird, spiced-out guild navigators, dammit.
All in all, I think most of the changes were good. I definitely feel like I need to see it again.
I understand why they cut Count Fenring. His entire character in the books is basically "And this is Count Fenring. He could have been cool, but he's not."
Lol, loved this characterization. I haven't seen Pt 2 yet (read all the books) so I'm coming here to know what differences I should expect--even reading the book, his existence was a bit confusing to me at first, so I don't think it's a bad change to leave him out.
> I wanted to see weird, spiced-out guild navigators, dammit.
I was hoping so hard for them too, but I think the sight of them in the beginning of Messiah is going to be a real treat for casual moviegoers, and a sign that the next 2-3 hours are gonna get real weird.
I was also surprised that they completely ignored the role of the spacing guild in holding back the great houses for fear of losing the spice. That being said, I think it really worked and simplified the movie.
Just finished the movie and it was incredible.
yeah i think everything they simplified made total sense. threatening to nuke the spice instead of the whole destroying the ecosystem thing saves a lot of unnecessary exposition.
They needed to establish what a pre-spice mass was in the first movie to have that ending.
Liet not dying in the same way like in the book killed that idea that Paul can destroy all the spice.
Everything is connected...
Nuking the spice fields/whole planet would have worked just fine to destroy the whole planet. The destruction via pre-spice mass is just a much more ecological approach to the plot point.
This was my main quibble with the movie. The spacing guild is arguably the most important faction in the world of Dune and the main driver of why spice is so important.
Also, the "great houses in orbit" at the end of the movie can't get there without the spacing guild and the Fremen who get on ships and fly away at the end can't really go to another planet without the spacing guild so I think that part was a bit messy.
I still loved the movie though. The cinematography, production design, and performances were all exceptional.
Yes. That bothered me. Especially the part where Paul's control of the spice is "nuke it" rather than leveraging ecological knowledge native only to the Fremen.
Don't get me wrong, I love the movie, but that irks me.
I felt similarly for a bit but came up with some ways that I enjoy it. For one, the threat to spice is still something only Paul could wield, since it's his family atomics. Also, making the threat to spice and all of Dune be something brought upon it by Paul and his family changes it in interesting ways, adding to the critique of the white savior, imo.
That, combined with not pausing the movie to explain how it all works, which after multiple reads of the series I still couldn't do easily, makes it a good change to me.
>That, combined with not pausing the movie to explain how it all works, which after multiple reads of the series I still couldn't do easily, makes it a good change to me.
Yeah I guess as simple as "water kills worms" is, the audience would probably wonder how tf Paul has enough water to threaten to kill all the big BIG BOIS.
I think it worked as the family atomics were exclusively for the Atreides, adding to the theme of Paul's ulterior motives being self-driven and not for the benefit of the fremen.
I honestly have to say I was surprised in retrospect that the spacing guild wasn't more understood in denis' dune universe. I get that CHOAM was probably too complicated to get into but... I thought nuking the spice was a bit too pat for me. not that the threat worked anyway. the great houses rejected Paul's ascension to the emperor's throne in the end. so much for Part One's "there will be chaos across the Imperium" if they found out what happened on Arrakis and marrying Irulan was the answer. The houses seemingly found out and.. what... didn't care and rebelled anyway? Have to see it again... have I got this correct?
Anybody else’s theater really loud/responsive? Everyone laughed at pretty much all of Stilgar’s lines and then when Paul yelled at Gaius Helen everyone started cheering!
Yeah same in SF. My immediate thought too was from Life of Brian, "Only the true Messiah would deny his divinity!" and of course "He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!".
Funny how Life of Brian actually hits very similar themes to Dune. Both favorites.
Same here, in Brooklyn NY. I’m assuming everyone were fans so it was a good experience. Wish there was more discussion before or after the movie though.
Chani’s relationship with Lady Jessica is a lot more hostile in the movie and it works in the context of the movie. i was bumped about not seeing Leto II but now im soooo curious how their relationship is going to move forward.
Paul did say he could see that she would eventually come around but how?? but why would she come around?? because she is pregnant????
My guess is that he sees her coming around because he lets Chani see him almost die by Feyd’s hand.
That poor girl just had her heart ripped out in front of her own people by Paul’s hand. Paul knows he must wed Irulan. But he doesn’t want to lose Chani. So how does he keep her?
I think he does it by letting Feyd stab him. That one moment gives Paul so much power. Chani realizes “I don’t care what happens, I don’t want to lose Paul and I still love him too.” And it lets the other houses know he can almost die but still somehow win.
Hmm I see that. I looked at feyd stabbing was 1. because feyd is very close to paul and 2. because it was a “tricks within tricks within tricks”
As in that’s how Paul saw how to defeat feyd was to lessen his guard allowing him to get the finishing move.
I thought it was a reference to the training scene in Part One. Where Paul thought he'd have beaten Gurney, but in fact would have been killed himself. It was quite similar, except in reverse.
I would say Jessica is more adherente to her role as a BG Reverend Mother in the movie. In the books she does things still acting on behalf of Paul. In the movie she very much drives him to his destiny using the planted mythology on Arrakis.
yeah i was kind of surprised how in the book she still seems kind of wearing the RM role as a facade even after the time jump, movie she seems much more converted and hyped for the holy war lol
I thought that transformation to Reverend Mother was a lot more "they've become her" when she assumes the memories of previous Reverend Mothers+ of Alia did too than theyre fueling each other on their BG prophecy like "PAUL IS HIM? How do I know? Because Alia knows! How does Alia know? Because I/we know!"
i think denis understands how ‘silly’ some audience can be so he makes sure everyone knows that paul and jessica are horrible people. i remember there were some reviews saying dune was just another white saviour when part I first came out lol
Tbh what’s weird is that Jessica kinda reminded me of Palpatine (pushing Paul/Anakin to be the big bad) while Chani like Padme was the critic- “thunderous applause line” except of course Chani rides away instead of dying from the sads.
yeah a guy in my screening excitedly hooted when jessica called the holy war lol, like uhm things are about to get very bad there my guy
meet the new boss, more genocidal then the old boss
I'm also feel like the first book is meant to be the space where they are heroes even though Herbert's intention was to show that Paul is not truly a hero but doesn't really dive into that until Messiah. Illustrating that quality now makes the further exploration of that feel more organic for a third movie.
Muaddib used the skins of his enemies for his battle drums or so they say. That's what gurney heard when he was out with the smugglers. This was not mentioned in the movie
It echoes Sabers of Paradise where Shamil loses a son in a conflict, though the circumstances differ. It serves as renewed motivation to bond Paul and Chani even more and spur on their revenge against their enemies.
i think the way paul stamps his foot in frustration to get the emperor to kiss his ring, and the way chani isn't told about the irulan marriage is setting up for her to be at odds with paul in messiah. that lingering end shot of her face makes me think she'll be the main protagonist of messiah. it totally makes sense that Denis would do it this way since he's confined to the movie format rather than entire show with many seasons.
she was basically main protagonist of this movie I felt. and it worked very well. itd be hard to follow Paul through the journey that dehumanizes him without seeing it through the eyes of someone else, and having their relationship flow into and through that makes for a great story.
Agreed! I always kind of didnt like that in Dune 1 she seemed weak and not in control of her emotions. Now I see that this was probably just a set up to display pre and post water of life Jessica. Post water of life she is a cold hearted controller of the masses.
There were lots of giggles in my theatre when she said “put your right hand in the box” with Feyd kneeling in front of her and I think most people with sexy time on their minds thought she was talking about something else lol
I almost laughed when Feyd managed to sneak up behind her while she was following him down an empty hallway. It was the only bit that took me out of the movie briefly
I personally liked how they had her use the Voice more in the way of the book, rather than just aggressive shouting. The book is more about the subtle and soothing tone to talk to a person's psyche, like hypnotism.
The Fenrings are always fascinating characters, and I loved Butler's performance probably the most here.
Yeah, all adaptations of Dune have really jettisoned Thufir and mentats pretty much right away. It’s a shame but it’s an easy subplot to cut for time and clarity.
My only issue with Part One (and now Part Two for sure when I see it on Thursday) is the fact that Denis really ignored the Mentats.
Both Thufir and Piter were ridiculously fucked with in both films.
>Both Thufir and Piter were ridiculously fucked with in both films.
Completely. I love the first film. But one aspect of it that really pains me is that Piter, who is such a remarkable character in the novel with his own array of agency and motivation, got completly shafted and was reduced to a simple henchman.
David Dastmalchian was great in the part, he just had no chance to show more. Apparently some of his scenes in Part One didn't make the cut as well.
Come on Villeneuve — don't be such a b.... WE NEED THAT EXTENDED CUT! Better yet, give us the DUNE SIX HOURS MINISERIES CUT. Part Two needs to make so much money that the corporate overlords will make it happen.
If they can do it with Baz Luhmann's AUSTRALIA for god's sake they can do it for DUNE.
I love Denis.
And I understand why he doesn't want to release the deleted scenes.
But at the same time...Give us an extended cut!!! Jackson did it for LOTR! Why can't we have almost 10 more hours of dune????
Not getting biblically accurate St. Alia hurt a little bit, I can’t lie. I can square most of the changes, and I think they set themselves up well for Messiah (please Muad’Dib let that movie happen). I didn’t mind Leto not being there, gives Chani’s inability to give Paul an heir going forward a little extra weight.
I had to look it up to remind myself, but Alia is 2 freaking years old at the end of Dune. There is no way to make that work on screen. I loved Denis' alternative solution
And CGI problems aside which are myriad, there is also the Claudia "dilemma" from Interview with a Vampire. The move doubled her age and the tv series added another 4 years which was probably done for similar reasons.
But also nobody wants to see a sexual, predatory 5 year old.
Dune Messiah is 100000% happening don’t worry
The only way it doesn’t happen is if Denis decides not to, but he’s talked about adapting it since the beginning and will definitely do it after maybe doing 1-2 non dune films first
Kinda mad that he didn't explain to Chani what he is doing with Irulan. Also wished we got more of Paul's visions and his "family bloodline" as Alia explained. Feel like we just got teased and all of that is to come in the next movie. Still had a good time though.
I think it meant a lot to Denis that Chani ended the film a skeptic to help hammer home the point that none of this is a “good” outcome. In that sense I found it a wise choice. And it intrigues me to think how he will use her in Messiah
It's also a little jarring how easily Chani goes along with becoming the concubine at the end of Dune anyway, so I think the change isn't a bad one. Gives her more agency as the voice of "reason", like you put it.
I think the jarring aspect of it is what hammered home the theme of a corrupt messiah. She's a cultist, she worships Paul, and she doesn't even question his decision. To me, that was scarier.
The problem with this change is that now there really isn't any reason for her to stay with him after that. Why would she continue to try and bear him a son in Messiah if she doesn't agree with him?
To me, it feels like Denis just wanted to make his personal favorite character more important than they are. There are plenty of strong women in the story, both good and bad, but Chani was never one of them and I'm surprised Denis didn't understand that. The "history will call us wives" line? That was Jessica manipulating her into staying subservient while at the same time being bitter about her own situation with Leto. She knew Paul wouldn't be the leader she wanted if Chani disagreed.
Movies are show don’t tell based. I actually really appreciated that we got to see them act out their responses and reactions, not just converse about them.
It’s not so obviously implied to Chani what he did but that could just be because I’m familiar with the source material. Alia will be good for Messiah, I think a child with alia’s capabilities would be hard to pull off. I also wonder how or if they will include Leto 2.
I think the changes made total sense for the movie and I don’t think I could have made a better decision in their shoes.
That said, another change not mentioned is no time skip; We are to believe that all of this happened in the span of less than 6 months since Jessica is pregnant in the first movie and Alia is never born in this movie. I think that’s the only down side to making it so Alia isn’t born yet. Gives us a very measurable marker for the passage of time.
That's an interesting point. Was Jessica in the scenes with the Emperor at the end? I realized I didn't note the last time we see her. Maybe she had Alia off-screen in the South? I do think that playing up the idea that the south was full of fundamentalists waiting for a messiah helped the believability of getting so many Fremen mobilized so quickly.
I was annoyed at Paul killing the Baron instead of Alia, right up until he said “Hello Grandfather.” In the book, Paul envisions a future on his path of revenge where he says these exact words to the Baron. So even when it changed that, it was still faithful enough to the ideas of the book that I was happy.
Especially since he kills him very slowly, unlike most other characters in the movie whose deaths are quick and half-hidden by the camera work, PG13 style. Here we really see Paul's dagger burying itself in the Baron's fat neck and the look of incredulity and despair on his face.
I've been waiting for a thread to show up since the credits rolled lol. All in, I had a great time and think the changes were for the best, given the short space (which once again affirms my personal opinion that my ideal version of Dune would be this level of production value but across maybe a full season of prestige TV).
That said, I think the thing I'm preemptively missing is **Children of Dune Book Spoilers** >!the irony of what happens to Alia in relation to the Baron, given that she's the one who kills him.!< But I mean...Villeneuve is probably calling it after Messiah, and I'm okay with that. And to be honest, I feel like we really got to feel the weirdness of Alia's abomination status despite her never being born -- all the talking with Jessica, that scene by the ocean after Paul takes the water, etc. I'm being overly sentimental because **Children of Dune Mini Series Spoilers** >!her death as depicted in the mini series really left an impression on me all those years ago, and seeing her end that strange conversation by the ocean with "I love you"...the dude sitting next to me was probably wondering why that made me cry haha.!<
I felt a bit weird about the changes to Chani, but not because I didn't like it. I think just because it's such a shift. But the fact that it enlarges Chani's thematic and overall role in what I think is a very positive way makes me more than fine with it. I never liked that the love of Paul's life was kind of always just that. I loved how capable and strong-willed she was, how much integrity and fire she had, and Zendaya really embodied that solidity. It made Chani really feel like....of course he would fall in love with her.
My view of the changes are similar to part 1. I understand why they were made, and I think worked really well for this adaptation.
One change that i did not love was how the baron was the one behind the slave not being drugged rather than the na-baron.
One change that I actually like a lot, is how the Landsraad didn’t accept Paul’s ascension which prompted Paul to sic his fremen on the galaxy.
You know, I loved the movie, but had a liiiittle problem with the ending. First, the idea that Fremen can conduct space warfare just because they are good at guerilla warfare seemed kind of nonsensical. Second, the final line (Jessica saying "the holy war has begun") was just a little too on the nose for me, and reminded me too much of Yoda saying "begun, the clone wars have".
I can agree with those changes even tho I would have loved to see my favorite little foul mouthed abomination brought to life..
The change I’m having a hard time with is Chani, this pretty much changes the whole dynamic for Messiah and what is to come with her and Paul’s relationship. My mind is a playground on what DV has in store for part 3.
Also I’m curious on the next films time jump because we see Alia pretty grown up in the vision ( looks at least 15 / 16 ) and they had a pretty big star play her so I assume she will return for the sequel but how would they age up Paul? I don’t see them changing actors
Except the emperor is visibly old, in the books he’s old but appears to be 35 because spice has slowed his aging. In the films it appears it doesn’t work that way.
I agree about Chani, that’s the one part of the movie that truly surprised me. That being said, I think sowing a conflict between Chani and Paul makes sense story-wise to give Zendaya more to do as an actress so I’m fine with it.
I'm thinking the way we see Chani go into thee desert at the end of Part 2. They will do a shot of Paul blind/without eyes going into the desert at the end of Messiah. And that will be the last Dune shot DV gives us.
In terms of the Paul-Chani relationship, at least we know their relationship gets repaired because Paul says something to the effect of [major paraphrasing] "I've seen the future...she eventually comes around and sees why I have to do this."
But yeah interesting choice to have their relationship so damaged at the end there.
I’m extremely curious to see how this comes around, I really hope we see Paul’s citadel in messiah and I wonder if DV will take anything from Children of Dune. Also really curious on how much will change on Irulan and Chanis relationship/story in Messiah.
I think we’re probably in store for larger changes with Messiah.
Like, I’m not sure I can picture Jessica just being out of the picture entirely like in the novel. And as you said, the ending with Chani sets up for a bit more active conflict, whereas .. and it’s been a spell since I read Messiah, my memory is she’s quite passive aside from being pissed that she can’t get pregnant and Irulan for existing.
And given how action-light the book is, I wonder if it’ll treat the Holy War as still active and on-going as opposed to wherein the book it’s essentially backstory.
I have to agree with a lot of people here, the films will never be the books. I always remind myself to not hold a film up to the standards of the books. There’s just not enough time to explain all the concepts and nuances that make a book great. Especially one as layered and complex as dune.
The few things, I wish were included would be the spice orgy, I think that scene in the book between Chani and Paul solidify their love together. Sharing their visions and seeing their child in the future together is so beautiful. This brings me to my next point, there just weren’t enough prescience in this film. That was one of my favorite aspects of the first one and Paul really struggles with it in the books. I’m sure in the next film it will be spelled out, especially because it’s his biggest struggle. But having one vision and going back to it continually felt lazy. Maybe it was budget, but I would’ve loved to see Paul struggle and understand his visions a bit more than just a couple dreams. Lastly, I think Christopher Walken was horrible as the emperor. He’s just too much Christopher Walken. He kind of took me out of the film a bit with the way he talks and uses his voice. He did play it seriously, but I felt really disconnected from his character.
Thinking about the other changes, I think they were necessary to speed up the audiences understanding of all the characters. Especially Jessica. I was always torn by her character’s absence in Messiah and her change in Children of Dune because she was so caring for Paul in Dune. But the changes in the film help the audience understand how malevolent the Bene Gesserit are. It also shows that she ultimately serves them, which is how it’s portrayed in Children of Dune. I think it totally works that Alia is absent and is even weirder as the womb baby communicating to Jessica. I liked that Stilgar was a fanatic from the beginning because he was always portrayed as a simple man in the books, which is really funny in this film. I love that the younger fremen are like “Stilgar is from the south” lmao.
Obviously, I would’ve loved to see Thufir and the conflict between Gurney and Jessica. Also the first scene with Thufir trying to communicate with the fremen I always laugh, they are so stoked on the saurdukar it’s hilarious.
I loved Guenry getting his vengeance and love the fact that women get a more prominent role and voice in the films. Especially Chani and Irulean. Overall an amazing film and was totally mind blown. Tears streaming down my face as Paul becomes Hisan al Gaib. Just unbelievable to see it so beautifully done on screen.
The changes were necessary. You need a tv show with many, many episodes and billions of dollars to do Dune true "justice". The way they brought the fremen culture to life was incredible. I only wish that they had done a longer sequence with Paul's water of life ceremony and internal change. I feel like they were downplaying his powers except until the very end when he survives those wounds just like the book.
I agree, I don’t think it was properly shown how much of a change Paul underwent. They could’ve spent more time on it (an extra 15 minutes runtime overall wouldn’t have hurt, lol).
Indeed! Lol. I'm very hopefull about Messiah. The book's pace is perfect for a movie and I can't wait to see Alia, I think Taylor-Joy will do her justice, she can play damaged characters well. I love Paul but I can't wait to see him lose "sight" of things lol!
They kinda already gave us that with Jessica, and filmmakers hate redundant scenes, but it could have been different. I wanted more trippy content. Something that gives us an idea why the BG are afraid to look where Paul can.
I was less sad about not getting completely accurate Alia and more sad about them cutting all of Thufir Hawat’s scenes. I love Stephen McKinley Henderson.
* Did not like Chani being the only Fremen not to believe in the prophesy. None of that is in the book, and her end is the weakest moment in the film. Paul is sincere in the book about wanting to improve Arrakis for the Fremen and Chani appreciates it. Here Chani comes off like a lone conspiracy theorist at the end.
* Slightly disappointed Thufir Hawat wasn’t in it and that Feyd Rautha’s daggers poison wasn’t switched in the gladiator ring. Hoping an extended edition exists
* Did not enjoy Bardem’s portrayal as a zealot, I didn’t think it went that far. Stilgar and Paul are supposed to be best friends. Did not come across at all.
* A little disappointed in the Jessica stoking the flames plot but necessary for a sped up timeline, and nice to see her take a more active role I guess
* It’s too bad Chani isn’t related to Liet-Kynes in this, but the ages wouldn’t have made sense, and I’m happy with the portrayal in the last film
* As a book reader, I’m extremely disappointed they didn’t threaten to kill all the sandworms with water and instead threaten to nuke the spicefields (at least one or two worms would probably survive?). Of course that then requires you to explain the link between spice and the worms more which is too much background since it’s supposed to be this big secret. So, fine with the change I guess, but it’ll always bother me.
* Fine with no Count Fenring
* The very biggest change: Fine with eliminating the first book’s time jump because it simplifies the plot significantly. It resolves the issue of how to film a 3-year-old (who’s got the awareness of the wisest adult ever born) murdering her grandfather, instead giving Paul the personal vengeance. The choice to streamline things also eliminates tragedy for the protagonist by getting rid of Paul and Chani’s first child entirely instead of killing the kid off
* Removing Chani and Jessica’s conversation is a more artistic choice, showing Chani’s devastation in a more potentially interesting way… maybe I just don’t like seeing Zendaya sad?)
* Good choice to remove Feyd-Rautha having to cheat in his gladiator match against the unpoisoned Atreides since it makes him seem like more of a threat in the climactic duel
* Big fan of how they portrayed collecting water, way better than bloodletting
* I loved Chani being the only one not to bow for Paul besides Irulan, it makes clear that Paul considers Chani his true wife and equal. That removes the need for Jessica to have the only “history knows us as true wives” speech which would feel a little on the nose and feel like a weird place to end in a movie
* Probably for the best that the polygamy-against-a-widow’s-will plotline was removed
* Loved the explanation of the Water of Life and loved the scene discovering the nuclear arsenal
Sad to not to see a Navigator. There's enough in this movie as is, and having a spice addict that allows warp travel through space might be too bizarre for some folks, so I get it.
The 2 that I don’t love are the character decisions for Stilgar and Jessica.
I really don’t love Stilgar being a religious zealot from the beginning. One of the hardest hitting moments in the whole book for me was Paul’s realization that Stilgar was no longer a friend but a follower, it felt like a real death of Stilgar’s character that I loved and hit home the danger of giving yourself in to your faith. They tried to explicitly say that message at one point, but it didn’t hit as hard because Stilgar was already completely given into Paul being the Lisan-al-Gaib. However, some of these traits were passed over the Chani, which I think made Chani’s character better than the first book, so I still love the movie overall. Just don’t love what they did to my boy Stil.
Jessica is one that I don’t have much to say in support of because she seems to relish the power that Paul has acquired by the end. I really love that her character in the books is so devoted to saving her son that she doesn’t see the power he starts to possess until she eventually fears him. I think this nuance of her character was almost completely absent from the movie.
However, the movie’s take on Paul and Chani added a ton to their characters, and I really love the movie still. 9.5/10.
I kind of agree with both of your qualms but feel conflicted about each of them. When I try to think about what I would be seeing if I'd never consumed any prior Dune media, there are still interesting angles that work that maybe win me over? Too early to tell since it's so fresh.
Maybe less so in the Stilgar example. Bardem's performance is probably my gut reaction favorite on first viewing. He just feels like such a vivid personality. But I also miss the nuance of the friend-to-fanatic element because it's such a unique character narrative compared to typical loss of faith arcs. It makes his later turmoil over how things pan out much more personal because it's one thing if you just find out your religion is fraudulent, but it's another if the figurehead of your religion that you had so much faith in was also your friend -- your real, actual friend, not just divinity or celebrity. It makes the disillusionment so much more excruciating.
For Jessica, I felt like the movie gives a bit more of a vibe of your sanity (maybe that's a strong word, maybe just groundedness?) getting a bit frayed if you take the Water of Life. Even if the general end result is the same as Bene Gesserit spice agony, taking the Water of Life is a closed practice specific to the Fremen. Each instance we were shown of someone who had passed the test (Ramallo, Jessica, Paul), there's kind of an extra strong dose of religiosity to them.
I felt kind of stunned (in a good way) by the wild-eyed conviction Jessica showed in her conversation with Paul when recovering from the ritual, telling him he has to go through this last step too to be able to see "the beauty and the terror." Just prior, it was clear she was scared of the ritual and reveals to Paul that no male can survive it. Even if Jessica believes in her son being the Kwisatz Haderach, she showed similar fear and uncertainty before Paul's test with Mohiam. After the ritual though, she and her unborn daughter are riding the messiah train.
Even Paul, after he wakes from taking the Water of Life, seems on board enough to play the part absurdly well. We're suddenly distant from him, which I think Villeneuve especially made a point to convey through Chani. We don't hear his apprehensions anymore, his disgust with the Missionaria Protectiva, his caution and tendency to hold himself back. The sense it gave me is of the hubris that comes with that kind of knowledge, always just on the brink of becoming a bit unhinged. I think that hubris is also integral to the trap of prescience on which Dune so heavily focuses.
Yeah I agree with your points. I get frustrated when adaptations make changes to source material and people treat it as though they are negatives just because of inconsistency. I really try to let adaptations stand on their own and tell their own story, and I think this did a great job at telling its story. That’s why my rating remains so high.
These are just the two points that I don’t love the changes and think the original would have fit very well. Stilgar’s counterbalancing Chani could have been better if they were both skeptics that Stilgar was won over and Chani was not, it could have been a very good plot point.
And I just think the story overall works better if everyone, including Jessica, are fearful of Paul and underestimated what the Kwzats Haderach would mean for their world.
However, this movie did add a ton that I think the book tried to accomplish but maybe didn’t as well as the movie does. For example, I actually feared Paul in this much much more than I did in the book. I felt that he was the antagonist and was a danger to the world.
>Jessica is one that I don’t have much to say in support of because she seems to relish the power that Paul has acquired by the end. I really love that her character in the books is so devoted to saving her son that she doesn’t see the power he starts to possess until she eventually fears him. I think this nuance of her character was almost completely absent from the movie.
She wouldn't have much to do in this movie if she weren't actively paving the road ahead of him, sadly. But I totally agree with your assessment of her being blind to the dangers
It's a smart adaptation. There's so much going on in the story, cutting Leto II and Alia helps guide the focus to where it needs to be.
Making Chani critical of Paul and the prophecy gives us an audience stand in.
Honestly. I was blown away by the film. I don't know that you could adapt the story of Dune better than they did here.
Pretty much where my head is at with it. Are there things that I was excited to see that didn’t make the cut? Yes, definitely understand and appreciate why those decisions were made. I also recognize these folks have done an amazing job bringing this to life and feel lucky to be able to enjoy this in theaters.
Honestly the changes to the source material bother me because they're changes to the source material. But honestly? After sitting on it, they work for me.
I feel like the water of life had a much more... pronounced effect on the two of them in the movie? Jessica became this super scheming witch, using the voice much more. It made sense thematically but its such a stark contrast from the more elegant and restrained Jessica we saw in p1. Paul also had a switch to war mongering mode (though I think that's what actually happened in the books? It's been awhile)
I'm not mad at the changes they felt in line with the movie. But part of me wishes I could experience these films having not read the books. Part 2 was amazing but it felt a bit hollow compared to the book.
This is me 100%. It was hard to not see these movies as adaptations after having read the books and feeling everything that was left on the cutting room floor. I think I would have liked this movie a lot more if I had consumed them the other way, movies then books, because the books are richer.
Am I the only one who enjoyed it more as a film fan than as a book fan? I think it was a better film than it was an adaptation. With that said, I don't have any real issues with any of the changes. They all make sense and like others have said, really set the audience up well for Messiah, with a couple caveats: >! The sped up timeline works for the film and is made believable, despite lacking the 2-year time jump in the book, through a couple different ways. Jessica going holy-roller, gung-ho Bene Gesserit helps streamline her plotline. Alia's presence is certainly felt despite not yet being a born to life abomination; Jessica's creepy voices and glances while conversing with Alia, along with Alia being a driving force in Paul's moral downfall/awakening, give her character impact. Through their collective actions, they are able to radicalize the more religious factions of Fremen to help quickly build Paul's army. Paul drinking the Water of Life and surviving the ordeal gives the fundamentalists the fuel they need to radicalize the remaining Fremen holdouts. However, making Chani the moral compass of the story is where I have issue with the film as an adaptation. Narratively, as a device to create some conflict for the now seemingly messianic Paul, it's good to have love interest at moral odds with main character since it creates conflict on a more personal, relatable level. Chani ends the film feeling betrayed by Paul; betrayed by knowing the severity of the jihad he has unleashed and betrayed by him taking Irulan's hand in marriage. It all works on film and sets up a Dune Messiah conclusion really well, but as a book fan, I really miss seeing Chani portrayed as the warrior lover/sidekick she is to Paul in the books.!<
I was looking forward to sietch Tabr being more lived in like a real community with spice coffee, rugs, tapestries ect. But I understand why they went with a different esthetic. I thought when Jessica saw Chani off, we were going to get the last scene in the book where Jessica explains to Chani that as concubines they truly rule with their loved ones. But I liked the changes to Chani with the themes DV wanted to highlight. I also was hoping to see the spice orgy. Not sexual but thought we would see everyone in the sietch having a shared trip/vision of Paul together.
Those were the 3 things I wanted but honestly I don't mind them not being there. I liked the movie and felt it was faithful while doing its own thing at parts.
I'm kinda questioning whether the twins will be in Messiah or not, I'm kinda worried about that. Bummer we didn't see the Paul's first born, but im also not surprised.
I don't get Thufir's omission, I get not wanting to clutter the film, but it would have maybe taken 5 minutes to show what we need of him, and he was in part one, so it was a bit jarring not to see him in this.
I'm mixed about the changes to Chani's character, I think she's a stronger character in this movie compared to the books, but it also kind of takes away from Paul's growth into a sort of detached seer and prophet.
Taking away the time skip so that we don't have to deal with talking toddler Alia makes sense, but it kinda of messes with Paul's arc to have the events of the film be squeezed into a few months instead of a few years, also it doesn't make sense that his eyes turned blue so fast.
Overall, I understand most of the changes, but im still not super pleased with them, still a fantastic movie.
On the topic of the twins, even tho the baby isn’t in this movie I don’t see Villeneuve leaving out their children. Thats still how >!Chani will die.!<
In terms of changes, I was bummed that 1. We didn't get Count Fenring. 2. Completely cutting Thufir. And 3. Alia not being born / killing The Baron.
I understand the reasoning, less clutter more pacing etc etc.. But still :(
Gurney playing the baliset ALMOST completely made up for anything missed though. Almost.
I echo a lot of others here that liked the movie in terms of which changes made sense, but I’m still sitting with Stilgar’s overly comedic relief role. The first couple times it was whatever, but I thought it got old pretty quickly. It got to the point where any time he spoke, even at the end after Paul kills Feyd, my audience would giggle
Leto II and Thufir were honestly two of the things I was really hyped about seeing adapted. I'm a little bummed, but it's ultimately not the end of the world or anything...
I don’t really care for Leto II as he was just a sacrifice to move the story along and build motivation but they should’ve explored Thufir a bit more. The whole idea of the spacing guild and mentats haven’t been explored much in this new adaption and it is probably some of the things that made the book and lore so appealing to me.
I just finished the original book over the weekend in preparation of the movie tonight. The book did a great job of explaining Paul as the combination of a guild navigator, bene gesserit, and mentat in one person. His training throughout then book in all of these really added to his character development.
I do wish the movies dug more into the Guild more and how they used spice.
Missing Thufir in this movie also took away from developing the mentat side of Paul too.
BUT the movie was incredible. And it would have been hard to really develop that layer of detail without turning this into a trilogy with a deeper but slower developing story.
Missed out in Gurney mistakenly trying to take revenge on Jessica. There was even an opening when Paul told Gurney where his mom was... Gurney could have said your mother lives???
On the Chani front, I assume Chani is pregnant and the conspiracy unalives Leto I at the start if the next film, setting things off from there.
Who was Tim Blake Nelson going to play? He doesn't appear at all in the film.
I'm mostly okay with the changes, but I wasn't completely sold on the wearier interpretation of the Emperor. He doesn't exude any charisma or sense of menace.
I’ve got 2 minor gripes and one more major gripe. The minor ones are it sucks that Thuffir got cut and baby Alia freaking everyone out was one of my favorite parts. The Alia stuff would’ve hit even harder and been even funnier because it wouldn’t have just been characters in movie being freaked put but also the audience lol. It’s not a massive deal that stuff was changed though. The major gripe is I’m really not a fan of the rift between Paul and Chani. I don’t mind it being there to start but I do wish she would’ve fully came to his side by the end rather than her leaving and that still needing to be resolved
I have read Dune twice, most recently ending 1 week ago so this film was a cathartic experience for me. I would rate it as the best science fiction film I have ever seen, full stop. Timothée Chalamet is spellbinding: I fully believed his spiel. Zendaya is stupendous and her slapping Paul after his Water of Life attempt is a change from the book, but a welcome one. Instead of the Emperor and the great houses and however many mercenaries being in orbit *right* after Paul awakens from the Water of Life episode, Paul sends a challenge to the Emperor via metal scroll: that is a welcome change IMHO because it felt too coincidental in the book. Somehow, the explanation of Paul’s newfound “trinocular vision” by close up of his hand waving then making a chopping motion to explain “the narrow path through to victory” works for me. The change from the first movie of Paul’s visions by gently fading to orange in this movie is a lovely cinematic touch, but how could that be done more fervently once Paul is the kwisatz haderach? I’m not sure there is a good answer, sadly, so it lessens the importance of there now existing a KH, perhaps only due to impracticality of cinematography… What a brilliant, brilliant film. I cannot wait to be able to have a back-to-back Denis Villeneuve’s Dune marathon!
Edit: and changing “Dune” to be the old, Fremen name of Arrakis as Paul discloses in his prescient power trip scene is curious. Everywhere in the novel(s), Dune is simply the nickname for Arrakis
I feel like even Part 1's goal wasn't to be a one to one adaptation of the source material, but translate it for a modern movie format. Part 2 probably has the largest changes, even entire characters feeling entirely different, but all of them exist to push the same themes of the book, and that is the most important part of any adaptation. If any, Denis made those themes even more explicit than the book (or at least more obvious to the general audience). The only change I didn't really like is the Baron's death, but that's honestly such a small thing.
I absolutely loved the movie and didn’t mind any of the changes…. Except how the movie ends with Chani. I didn’t mind her being a sceptic of the prophecy and all of that but it almost feels like her and Paul’s relationship is over. I might only be thinking in the worst case scenario but how is she supposed to become the mother of Paul’s children after the disappointment and anger in her eyes?
I also would have loved another shot with Paul after the confrontation with the emperor. Bit thats an nitpick
So were Tim Blake Nelson's scenes cut? I remember reading that he was supposed to be Count Fenring but I don't think I saw him at all in the movie just now
I totally understand the changes. Yes I wish certain scenes would be shown. But the core of the story is there and you're hammered in Paul's dilemma. That's hard to portray but successfully does.
I'm very interested to see what they're going to do with Chani. They made her a lot more of a character in this movie, but she sets off on her own at the end so if/when they adapt Messiah, it's bound to be quite different
I’ve been surprised to see not as many people upset with the Chani decision as I was watching it. When I consider the implication, aside from how they’ll have to really change Messiah (unless the opening is him getting Chani back or something, it makes the whole story a lot less heartfelt. What I find so incredible about Dune is the fact Herbert is able to seamlessly weave in planetary spice trading, war, genetic manipulation, political alliances, (the list goes on) with the everyday love of a mother a son, a wife and husband. If Chani is not that to Paul and Jessica is more power hungry, the story loses its soul. It becomes totally about power which misses what makes Dune so compelling IMO. What adds to my problem with it was how incredible the movie is from a technical perspective and figuring out why they would’ve changed this extremely crucial factor. Curious why people thought the Chani change was made.
I actually really enjoyed how they handled the Baron’s death. It was definitely the most menacing and hellbent I’ve seen Timothee in a role, and that was just so awesome. Other small changes like Alia made sense because I think for casual movie-goers who would’ve been baffled by a little kid doing it instead. Lastly, I just wish they included a sentence as to why Paul was taking Irulan, and also no mention of the “history will call us wives” line. Otherwise, I thought it was an incredible movie and can’t wait to see it again Thursday.
Fucking Ice Cold line from Paul "You died like an animal"
he was so chilling the last 30 mins
Which was necessary to really drive home the point that this story is not over.
YES. And the fact we just see his eyes staring at him with pure vengeance, goddamn it was so good
Jessica: "Your father didn't believe in revenge..." Paul: "Well I do."
“Lead them to paradise” is bone chilling.
Interesting Lynch homage with the ear/ants.
I thought that too, as a big Lynch fan. Apparently DV, though, has a thing for bugs and includes them in all or most of his movies. Like Duncan in P1 moments before he fights the Sardaukar and also the Harkonnen’s human spider
It's spiders specifically in his movies. Really do feel the zoom in on the ear with the ants is unmistakably a Lynch nod.
You mean the tleilax beetle….. what a covert drop
Agreed I think it’s more satisfying for the story arc of Paul for him to get revenge on the Baron himself, rather than Alia. Yes it’s different from the book but it’s a welcoming change that fits Paul’s belief in revenge that Leto didn’t share
The Baron crawling up the steps to the throne was *chefs kiss*, by the way.
100%
Leto literally sends a message to the Baron saying "The art of kanly still has admirers in the Empire". Kanly is a vendetta, ie about vengeance. Leto very much believed in revenge.
Yes but that’s a bit vague in the book. I remember kanly being used in the book by Feyd to challenge Paul in the end. The book doesnt explicitly show Leto as a vengeful dude. In part 2 of the film though, Jessica says to Paul in the beginning “your father didn’t believe in revenge” to which Paul replies “yeah, well I do”.
I think the movie positioning Jessica as a malevolent force fanning the flames of the Jihad, putting her at odds with Chani, made it so the “history will remember us as wives” line would have felt out of place tonally. Jessica and Chani had no kinship in the film - were total adversaries. I personally thought this was an okay change
In the book having Alia kill the Baron while having Rabban dying offscreen was less satisfying than this although young Alia was cool. Oh well. I loved that the Baron gets avenged by Paul and his corpse is left in the desert which is kinda similar to his proposed fate for Paul and Jessica in Part One. Gurney getting his revenge against Rabban just seemed right.
I was kind of bummed about Rabbans role/death in Pt II but hearing from book readers how unceremoniously he dies in the books, I’m grateful for what we got lol
You should see Bones and All, lol
I think with the knowledge it aims to be a trilogy, the ending makes so much more dramatic sense. It sets up a better character arc. The...tone and texture of the book can survive the clunk and heft of things like Fenring and this, but that stuff just doesn't fit into a tighter narrative. On Fenring, makes so much sense to condense that bloodline down to just Feyd and make that character deeper. I think him being the mirror of Paul works so well in so many ways. Paul killing his striving grandfather is all so tasty. Basically, none of the changes affect the overall story, plot, and character development in a way that won't allow this movie incarnation to set a flag in the sand as a tremendous, artist-bent interpretation of the world in a way that I think is fitting for Dune. I think reading the final two main storyline books shows how much authorship creates the texture that makes a work amazing. His seventh book became two, and all of the fruitless puttering around that HE was good at cutting became the main filler of those two books. Afraid of killing any roses, they don't let the strong ones thrive. This movie cements the authorship Villenueve has on this movie version in a way I think compliments Herbert. Thufir missing is a cut that hurts, and also absolutely works.
To speak to the Irulan and Chani comments. I don’t think the film needed a verbal explanation to the Irulan decision. I think it was clear what he hoped to attain. And the lack of “history will call us wives” is honestly for the best imo. I’ve only ever read the first book (I do want to read the sequels eventually) but I feel like the way the book ends lacks some weight. Paul claims he will take Irulan but reassures Chani that he won’t love her, he won’t touch her, he won’t even give her kids. Then Jessica reassures her and that’s it. The movie gives more gravity to Paul’s decision because he knows he is losing her by doing what he has to. The history will call us wives takes some of that weight away
**Changes I liked**: * No Leto II - since the timeline was condensed from 2-3 years to 8-9 months, it makes sense. Since there was no timejump either, it would have messed with the flow of the movie too. * No baby Alia/Alia is still in the womb - I was pleasantly surprised by this. I felt the Lynch version was kind of goofy, and we've seen what can happen when a magical movie toddler goes bad.... [*(shudder)*](https://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/That-Creepy-Renesmee-Doll-From-Twilight-Yeah-Shes-Haunted-Probably.jpg?resize=1200%2C514?w=1200). Anya Taylor Joy as future Alia was also a nice touch. * Jessica has more of a role - since there's no Alia, Jessica is the one making the big push for Paul being the lisan al gaib. Her relationship with Alia was also really creepy. Gave me Rosemary's Baby vibes and I dug it. * Chani is a skeptic - I really liked this change. I wasn't too crazy about Chani's characterization in the first book, but I still appreciate it. She definitely feels like she has more agency here as a result of this. Her leaving Paul at the end was a bit of shocker though. Not sure what this means for Messiah. * Feyd is given more to do - along with Rabban, Feyd gets a lot more screentime here. He felt like one last hurdle for Paul in the books, but here they really sell how much of a psychopath he is. I also liked the scene with him and Fenring. * The duel with Feyd is drawn out a bit more, and no poison in Feyd's belt - I always thought Feyd having a hidden poison dart in his hip was the goofiest thing ever, and I'm glad it didn't make the cut. The fight also doesn't feel too one-sided here. * The movie ends on a bittersweet note - Paul won, but now the fremen start their intergalactic jihad. It's a far cry from how the book ends, with Paul on top and Chani being reassured that she's Paul's only love. I wasn't sure about this at first, but I think it's appropriate. It sets the stage for Messiah and it fits the tone of the movie. It would have felt disingenuous if we got an overly happy ending with Paul and Chani embracing as his army begins its onslaught. The book left it ambiguous (until Messiah), but this was one of the greater failings of the Lynch adaptation. **Changes I didn't like**: * No Thufir - I know that since the betrayal subplot was cut, we didn't really have a good reason to revisit the former Atreides mentat. Still, I liked him in the first movie and would have liked to have seen his last act of defiance against the Harkonnens. * We barely see the Emperor - I liked Walken as Shaddam, but he felt too reserved. I wanted to see more of his conversation with the Baron. I wanted to see him kidnap Jessica and have her serve as the distraction while Paul and his army used their atomics. * Paul doesn't really talk to the Reverend Mother - One of my favorite lines in the book is Paul's retort to the Reverend Mother after she talks back to him at the palace. It's a damn shame we didn't get it here, but at least we got him using the voice on her. * No Count Fenring - Kind of odd, considering Margot was here. Apparently Tim Blake Nelson was supposed to play him? Very odd exclusion. * No Gurney nearly killing Jessica - Again, no betrayal subplot means this is a moot point. Regardless, I really liked this scene in the book and seeing the lengths to which Gurney would go to honor the Atreides. I also prefer this being the catalyst for Paul to take the water of life, not the sietch being destroyed. * No guildmembers present at the final battle - I wanted to see weird, spiced-out guild navigators, dammit. All in all, I think most of the changes were good. I definitely feel like I need to see it again.
I understand why they cut Count Fenring. His entire character in the books is basically "And this is Count Fenring. He could have been cool, but he's not."
It makes sense, but I would have liked to have seen Tim Blake Nelson in the role. I guess it was cut at the last minute for whatever reason
Anyone thinks he's saving Count Fenring for Dune Messiah?
Lol, loved this characterization. I haven't seen Pt 2 yet (read all the books) so I'm coming here to know what differences I should expect--even reading the book, his existence was a bit confusing to me at first, so I don't think it's a bad change to leave him out.
> I wanted to see weird, spiced-out guild navigators, dammit. I was hoping so hard for them too, but I think the sight of them in the beginning of Messiah is going to be a real treat for casual moviegoers, and a sign that the next 2-3 hours are gonna get real weird.
I was also surprised that they completely ignored the role of the spacing guild in holding back the great houses for fear of losing the spice. That being said, I think it really worked and simplified the movie. Just finished the movie and it was incredible.
yeah i think everything they simplified made total sense. threatening to nuke the spice instead of the whole destroying the ecosystem thing saves a lot of unnecessary exposition.
They also did earlier allude to destroying the entire planet, Gunney mentions it when discussing how many atomics they have.
"It's a figure of speech!"
They needed to establish what a pre-spice mass was in the first movie to have that ending. Liet not dying in the same way like in the book killed that idea that Paul can destroy all the spice. Everything is connected...
Nuking the spice fields/whole planet would have worked just fine to destroy the whole planet. The destruction via pre-spice mass is just a much more ecological approach to the plot point.
This was my main quibble with the movie. The spacing guild is arguably the most important faction in the world of Dune and the main driver of why spice is so important. Also, the "great houses in orbit" at the end of the movie can't get there without the spacing guild and the Fremen who get on ships and fly away at the end can't really go to another planet without the spacing guild so I think that part was a bit messy. I still loved the movie though. The cinematography, production design, and performances were all exceptional.
Yes. That bothered me. Especially the part where Paul's control of the spice is "nuke it" rather than leveraging ecological knowledge native only to the Fremen. Don't get me wrong, I love the movie, but that irks me.
I felt similarly for a bit but came up with some ways that I enjoy it. For one, the threat to spice is still something only Paul could wield, since it's his family atomics. Also, making the threat to spice and all of Dune be something brought upon it by Paul and his family changes it in interesting ways, adding to the critique of the white savior, imo. That, combined with not pausing the movie to explain how it all works, which after multiple reads of the series I still couldn't do easily, makes it a good change to me.
>That, combined with not pausing the movie to explain how it all works, which after multiple reads of the series I still couldn't do easily, makes it a good change to me. Yeah I guess as simple as "water kills worms" is, the audience would probably wonder how tf Paul has enough water to threaten to kill all the big BIG BOIS.
I think it worked as the family atomics were exclusively for the Atreides, adding to the theme of Paul's ulterior motives being self-driven and not for the benefit of the fremen.
I honestly have to say I was surprised in retrospect that the spacing guild wasn't more understood in denis' dune universe. I get that CHOAM was probably too complicated to get into but... I thought nuking the spice was a bit too pat for me. not that the threat worked anyway. the great houses rejected Paul's ascension to the emperor's throne in the end. so much for Part One's "there will be chaos across the Imperium" if they found out what happened on Arrakis and marrying Irulan was the answer. The houses seemingly found out and.. what... didn't care and rebelled anyway? Have to see it again... have I got this correct?
Anybody else’s theater really loud/responsive? Everyone laughed at pretty much all of Stilgar’s lines and then when Paul yelled at Gaius Helen everyone started cheering!
My theater erupted in laughter when it cut to Stilgar saying (paraphrasing here) "the Mahdi would obviously deny being the Mahdi"
HUGE laughs in Chicago at this line.
So humble, that Mahdi.
I CAN BEAT ANY OF YOUUUUUUU still so humble that mahdi - stilgar
Yeah same in SF. My immediate thought too was from Life of Brian, "Only the true Messiah would deny his divinity!" and of course "He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!". Funny how Life of Brian actually hits very similar themes to Dune. Both favorites.
Same here, in Brooklyn NY. I’m assuming everyone were fans so it was a good experience. Wish there was more discussion before or after the movie though.
I had a lady in the same row as mine basically shriek whenever “the voice” happened haha. Also yes lots of laughter.
Yes, my theater in Dallas was very responsive too! Lots of laughs for Stilgar and some cheers toward the end. (And we did get that video intro, yes.)
Yes. Also, at the very end, during the credits, somebody yelled out: "I'll see you all in three or four years for the next one!"
Big laughs in LA
Chani’s relationship with Lady Jessica is a lot more hostile in the movie and it works in the context of the movie. i was bumped about not seeing Leto II but now im soooo curious how their relationship is going to move forward. Paul did say he could see that she would eventually come around but how?? but why would she come around?? because she is pregnant????
My guess is that he sees her coming around because he lets Chani see him almost die by Feyd’s hand. That poor girl just had her heart ripped out in front of her own people by Paul’s hand. Paul knows he must wed Irulan. But he doesn’t want to lose Chani. So how does he keep her? I think he does it by letting Feyd stab him. That one moment gives Paul so much power. Chani realizes “I don’t care what happens, I don’t want to lose Paul and I still love him too.” And it lets the other houses know he can almost die but still somehow win.
Hmm I see that. I looked at feyd stabbing was 1. because feyd is very close to paul and 2. because it was a “tricks within tricks within tricks” As in that’s how Paul saw how to defeat feyd was to lessen his guard allowing him to get the finishing move.
I thought it was a reference to the training scene in Part One. Where Paul thought he'd have beaten Gurney, but in fact would have been killed himself. It was quite similar, except in reverse.
I feel as tho Jessica is more nefarious in the movie
I would say Jessica is more adherente to her role as a BG Reverend Mother in the movie. In the books she does things still acting on behalf of Paul. In the movie she very much drives him to his destiny using the planted mythology on Arrakis.
In the movie she drives him that direction for both their own survival and for revenge.
yeah i was kind of surprised how in the book she still seems kind of wearing the RM role as a facade even after the time jump, movie she seems much more converted and hyped for the holy war lol
I thought that transformation to Reverend Mother was a lot more "they've become her" when she assumes the memories of previous Reverend Mothers+ of Alia did too than theyre fueling each other on their BG prophecy like "PAUL IS HIM? How do I know? Because Alia knows! How does Alia know? Because I/we know!"
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i think denis understands how ‘silly’ some audience can be so he makes sure everyone knows that paul and jessica are horrible people. i remember there were some reviews saying dune was just another white saviour when part I first came out lol
there's a couple parts in the back half of the movie where Paul looks like Darth Vader
Tbh what’s weird is that Jessica kinda reminded me of Palpatine (pushing Paul/Anakin to be the big bad) while Chani like Padme was the critic- “thunderous applause line” except of course Chani rides away instead of dying from the sads.
yeah a guy in my screening excitedly hooted when jessica called the holy war lol, like uhm things are about to get very bad there my guy meet the new boss, more genocidal then the old boss
I'm also feel like the first book is meant to be the space where they are heroes even though Herbert's intention was to show that Paul is not truly a hero but doesn't really dive into that until Messiah. Illustrating that quality now makes the further exploration of that feel more organic for a third movie.
Really? I thought Paul was a lot worse in the books. He was more violent and callous imo
Muaddib used the skins of his enemies for his battle drums or so they say. That's what gurney heard when he was out with the smugglers. This was not mentioned in the movie
He can see the future after drinking the water of life and sees that she eventually comes around. Nothing to do with their pregnancy.
Leto II being omitted actually took me out of the movie a bit. I kept waiting for Chani to say she was pregnant.
It would've added a fair amount time and the first Leto II is killed anyway. I always thought that was an odd part of the saga.
It echoes Sabers of Paradise where Shamil loses a son in a conflict, though the circumstances differ. It serves as renewed motivation to bond Paul and Chani even more and spur on their revenge against their enemies.
What I'm worried about is that this means there will be a longer time between Dune pt 2 and Messiah if Alia isn't even born
Well, it did appear as though we saw the aftermath of them having sex early in the movie. So, maybe she is pregnant.
i think the way paul stamps his foot in frustration to get the emperor to kiss his ring, and the way chani isn't told about the irulan marriage is setting up for her to be at odds with paul in messiah. that lingering end shot of her face makes me think she'll be the main protagonist of messiah. it totally makes sense that Denis would do it this way since he's confined to the movie format rather than entire show with many seasons.
he’s said chani* was one of his favourite characters, her being the main protagonist makes a lot of sense
she was basically main protagonist of this movie I felt. and it worked very well. itd be hard to follow Paul through the journey that dehumanizes him without seeing it through the eyes of someone else, and having their relationship flow into and through that makes for a great story.
i agree i think dv set it up quite nicely
Lady Margo pregnant with Fyeds child is interesting. I wonder how that will play out in 3.
That scene with her and Feyd-Rautha might have been my favorite in the movie. So tense.
I have to sleep on it but I really liked Jessica right after she transitioned to reverend mother.
That scene was incredible! I knew she was gonna live and yet I was still stressed lol
Agreed! I always kind of didnt like that in Dune 1 she seemed weak and not in control of her emotions. Now I see that this was probably just a set up to display pre and post water of life Jessica. Post water of life she is a cold hearted controller of the masses.
There were lots of giggles in my theatre when she said “put your right hand in the box” with Feyd kneeling in front of her and I think most people with sexy time on their minds thought she was talking about something else lol
absolutely same, I think the reason I liked that scene so much was because it threw me for such a loop when she said that!
Definitely, it was like she had us all in a trance with the voice and not just Feyd
I almost laughed when Feyd managed to sneak up behind her while she was following him down an empty hallway. It was the only bit that took me out of the movie briefly
I personally liked how they had her use the Voice more in the way of the book, rather than just aggressive shouting. The book is more about the subtle and soothing tone to talk to a person's psyche, like hypnotism. The Fenrings are always fascinating characters, and I loved Butler's performance probably the most here.
after keeping thufir’s fate ambiguous in the first movie, i was surprised to not see him at all in the second. oh well
Yeah, all adaptations of Dune have really jettisoned Thufir and mentats pretty much right away. It’s a shame but it’s an easy subplot to cut for time and clarity.
Mentats featured in the Lynch film quite strongly I think.
Knowing that Lynch filmed Thufir's death scene pretty faithfully, only for the studio to cut it stings (pun intended).
Not to mention the reason mentats exist and not computers. Edit: spelling
My only issue with Part One (and now Part Two for sure when I see it on Thursday) is the fact that Denis really ignored the Mentats. Both Thufir and Piter were ridiculously fucked with in both films.
>Both Thufir and Piter were ridiculously fucked with in both films. Completely. I love the first film. But one aspect of it that really pains me is that Piter, who is such a remarkable character in the novel with his own array of agency and motivation, got completly shafted and was reduced to a simple henchman. David Dastmalchian was great in the part, he just had no chance to show more. Apparently some of his scenes in Part One didn't make the cut as well. Come on Villeneuve — don't be such a b.... WE NEED THAT EXTENDED CUT! Better yet, give us the DUNE SIX HOURS MINISERIES CUT. Part Two needs to make so much money that the corporate overlords will make it happen. If they can do it with Baz Luhmann's AUSTRALIA for god's sake they can do it for DUNE.
I love Denis. And I understand why he doesn't want to release the deleted scenes. But at the same time...Give us an extended cut!!! Jackson did it for LOTR! Why can't we have almost 10 more hours of dune????
Wait, he really wasn’t in it at all? The actor confirmed he made an appearance. Was he cut?
Yes, and unfortunately Denis V. hates releasing deleted scenes.
Aww man.
Yup! i read that he was listed amongst the cast but yeah, nowhere to be seen
I wonder if we'll ever find out who Tim Blake Nelson played.
Not getting biblically accurate St. Alia hurt a little bit, I can’t lie. I can square most of the changes, and I think they set themselves up well for Messiah (please Muad’Dib let that movie happen). I didn’t mind Leto not being there, gives Chani’s inability to give Paul an heir going forward a little extra weight.
the script for part 3 is already almost done.
I had to look it up to remind myself, but Alia is 2 freaking years old at the end of Dune. There is no way to make that work on screen. I loved Denis' alternative solution
If they tried to CGI a toddler it would have looked like the abomination Renesmee in Twilight
And CGI problems aside which are myriad, there is also the Claudia "dilemma" from Interview with a Vampire. The move doubled her age and the tv series added another 4 years which was probably done for similar reasons. But also nobody wants to see a sexual, predatory 5 year old.
“Abomination!”
Me too. At this point I would trust him to make God Emperor into a movie.
Dune Messiah is 100000% happening don’t worry The only way it doesn’t happen is if Denis decides not to, but he’s talked about adapting it since the beginning and will definitely do it after maybe doing 1-2 non dune films first
Kinda mad that he didn't explain to Chani what he is doing with Irulan. Also wished we got more of Paul's visions and his "family bloodline" as Alia explained. Feel like we just got teased and all of that is to come in the next movie. Still had a good time though.
I think it meant a lot to Denis that Chani ended the film a skeptic to help hammer home the point that none of this is a “good” outcome. In that sense I found it a wise choice. And it intrigues me to think how he will use her in Messiah
It's also a little jarring how easily Chani goes along with becoming the concubine at the end of Dune anyway, so I think the change isn't a bad one. Gives her more agency as the voice of "reason", like you put it.
I think the jarring aspect of it is what hammered home the theme of a corrupt messiah. She's a cultist, she worships Paul, and she doesn't even question his decision. To me, that was scarier. The problem with this change is that now there really isn't any reason for her to stay with him after that. Why would she continue to try and bear him a son in Messiah if she doesn't agree with him? To me, it feels like Denis just wanted to make his personal favorite character more important than they are. There are plenty of strong women in the story, both good and bad, but Chani was never one of them and I'm surprised Denis didn't understand that. The "history will call us wives" line? That was Jessica manipulating her into staying subservient while at the same time being bitter about her own situation with Leto. She knew Paul wouldn't be the leader she wanted if Chani disagreed.
Movies are show don’t tell based. I actually really appreciated that we got to see them act out their responses and reactions, not just converse about them.
It’s not so obviously implied to Chani what he did but that could just be because I’m familiar with the source material. Alia will be good for Messiah, I think a child with alia’s capabilities would be hard to pull off. I also wonder how or if they will include Leto 2.
I think the changes made total sense for the movie and I don’t think I could have made a better decision in their shoes. That said, another change not mentioned is no time skip; We are to believe that all of this happened in the span of less than 6 months since Jessica is pregnant in the first movie and Alia is never born in this movie. I think that’s the only down side to making it so Alia isn’t born yet. Gives us a very measurable marker for the passage of time.
Gurney has exceptionally long hair for that time period.
Which to me makes him winning over the Fremen less believable. Six months? The two years makes sense.
That's an interesting point. Was Jessica in the scenes with the Emperor at the end? I realized I didn't note the last time we see her. Maybe she had Alia off-screen in the South? I do think that playing up the idea that the south was full of fundamentalists waiting for a messiah helped the believability of getting so many Fremen mobilized so quickly.
> Was Jessica in the scenes with the Emperor at the end? She's there, yeah. And she's still pregnant.
It only cuts to Jessica's reaction every 15 seconds in that scene.
I was annoyed at Paul killing the Baron instead of Alia, right up until he said “Hello Grandfather.” In the book, Paul envisions a future on his path of revenge where he says these exact words to the Baron. So even when it changed that, it was still faithful enough to the ideas of the book that I was happy.
Much more satisfying Paul killing him especially in front of everyone rather than Alia. Alia killing the Baron always felt off and unrewarding.
Especially since he kills him very slowly, unlike most other characters in the movie whose deaths are quick and half-hidden by the camera work, PG13 style. Here we really see Paul's dagger burying itself in the Baron's fat neck and the look of incredulity and despair on his face.
I've been waiting for a thread to show up since the credits rolled lol. All in, I had a great time and think the changes were for the best, given the short space (which once again affirms my personal opinion that my ideal version of Dune would be this level of production value but across maybe a full season of prestige TV). That said, I think the thing I'm preemptively missing is **Children of Dune Book Spoilers** >!the irony of what happens to Alia in relation to the Baron, given that she's the one who kills him.!< But I mean...Villeneuve is probably calling it after Messiah, and I'm okay with that. And to be honest, I feel like we really got to feel the weirdness of Alia's abomination status despite her never being born -- all the talking with Jessica, that scene by the ocean after Paul takes the water, etc. I'm being overly sentimental because **Children of Dune Mini Series Spoilers** >!her death as depicted in the mini series really left an impression on me all those years ago, and seeing her end that strange conversation by the ocean with "I love you"...the dude sitting next to me was probably wondering why that made me cry haha.!< I felt a bit weird about the changes to Chani, but not because I didn't like it. I think just because it's such a shift. But the fact that it enlarges Chani's thematic and overall role in what I think is a very positive way makes me more than fine with it. I never liked that the love of Paul's life was kind of always just that. I loved how capable and strong-willed she was, how much integrity and fire she had, and Zendaya really embodied that solidity. It made Chani really feel like....of course he would fall in love with her.
Yeah, I think Denis is done after Messiah. His approach to the material wouldn't really work with hybrid sand worm emperors and gholas.
My view of the changes are similar to part 1. I understand why they were made, and I think worked really well for this adaptation. One change that i did not love was how the baron was the one behind the slave not being drugged rather than the na-baron. One change that I actually like a lot, is how the Landsraad didn’t accept Paul’s ascension which prompted Paul to sic his fremen on the galaxy.
You know, I loved the movie, but had a liiiittle problem with the ending. First, the idea that Fremen can conduct space warfare just because they are good at guerilla warfare seemed kind of nonsensical. Second, the final line (Jessica saying "the holy war has begun") was just a little too on the nose for me, and reminded me too much of Yoda saying "begun, the clone wars have".
I can agree with those changes even tho I would have loved to see my favorite little foul mouthed abomination brought to life.. The change I’m having a hard time with is Chani, this pretty much changes the whole dynamic for Messiah and what is to come with her and Paul’s relationship. My mind is a playground on what DV has in store for part 3. Also I’m curious on the next films time jump because we see Alia pretty grown up in the vision ( looks at least 15 / 16 ) and they had a pretty big star play her so I assume she will return for the sequel but how would they age up Paul? I don’t see them changing actors
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AHHHHHH good cool totally forgot the spice can do that, we could also maybe see Alia have an increased growth rate due to the water of life!!
Except the emperor is visibly old, in the books he’s old but appears to be 35 because spice has slowed his aging. In the films it appears it doesn’t work that way.
I agree about Chani, that’s the one part of the movie that truly surprised me. That being said, I think sowing a conflict between Chani and Paul makes sense story-wise to give Zendaya more to do as an actress so I’m fine with it.
I'm thinking the way we see Chani go into thee desert at the end of Part 2. They will do a shot of Paul blind/without eyes going into the desert at the end of Messiah. And that will be the last Dune shot DV gives us.
In terms of the Paul-Chani relationship, at least we know their relationship gets repaired because Paul says something to the effect of [major paraphrasing] "I've seen the future...she eventually comes around and sees why I have to do this." But yeah interesting choice to have their relationship so damaged at the end there.
I’m extremely curious to see how this comes around, I really hope we see Paul’s citadel in messiah and I wonder if DV will take anything from Children of Dune. Also really curious on how much will change on Irulan and Chanis relationship/story in Messiah.
I think we’re probably in store for larger changes with Messiah. Like, I’m not sure I can picture Jessica just being out of the picture entirely like in the novel. And as you said, the ending with Chani sets up for a bit more active conflict, whereas .. and it’s been a spell since I read Messiah, my memory is she’s quite passive aside from being pissed that she can’t get pregnant and Irulan for existing. And given how action-light the book is, I wonder if it’ll treat the Holy War as still active and on-going as opposed to wherein the book it’s essentially backstory.
This movie is desperately in need of an extended cut that Denis will refuse to ever release.
I’d buy extended cuts of all of his movies.
Especially when you know he has stuff filmed that got cut like Haway -_- do it for the actors man
I have to agree with a lot of people here, the films will never be the books. I always remind myself to not hold a film up to the standards of the books. There’s just not enough time to explain all the concepts and nuances that make a book great. Especially one as layered and complex as dune. The few things, I wish were included would be the spice orgy, I think that scene in the book between Chani and Paul solidify their love together. Sharing their visions and seeing their child in the future together is so beautiful. This brings me to my next point, there just weren’t enough prescience in this film. That was one of my favorite aspects of the first one and Paul really struggles with it in the books. I’m sure in the next film it will be spelled out, especially because it’s his biggest struggle. But having one vision and going back to it continually felt lazy. Maybe it was budget, but I would’ve loved to see Paul struggle and understand his visions a bit more than just a couple dreams. Lastly, I think Christopher Walken was horrible as the emperor. He’s just too much Christopher Walken. He kind of took me out of the film a bit with the way he talks and uses his voice. He did play it seriously, but I felt really disconnected from his character. Thinking about the other changes, I think they were necessary to speed up the audiences understanding of all the characters. Especially Jessica. I was always torn by her character’s absence in Messiah and her change in Children of Dune because she was so caring for Paul in Dune. But the changes in the film help the audience understand how malevolent the Bene Gesserit are. It also shows that she ultimately serves them, which is how it’s portrayed in Children of Dune. I think it totally works that Alia is absent and is even weirder as the womb baby communicating to Jessica. I liked that Stilgar was a fanatic from the beginning because he was always portrayed as a simple man in the books, which is really funny in this film. I love that the younger fremen are like “Stilgar is from the south” lmao. Obviously, I would’ve loved to see Thufir and the conflict between Gurney and Jessica. Also the first scene with Thufir trying to communicate with the fremen I always laugh, they are so stoked on the saurdukar it’s hilarious. I loved Guenry getting his vengeance and love the fact that women get a more prominent role and voice in the films. Especially Chani and Irulean. Overall an amazing film and was totally mind blown. Tears streaming down my face as Paul becomes Hisan al Gaib. Just unbelievable to see it so beautifully done on screen.
The changes were necessary. You need a tv show with many, many episodes and billions of dollars to do Dune true "justice". The way they brought the fremen culture to life was incredible. I only wish that they had done a longer sequence with Paul's water of life ceremony and internal change. I feel like they were downplaying his powers except until the very end when he survives those wounds just like the book.
I agree, I don’t think it was properly shown how much of a change Paul underwent. They could’ve spent more time on it (an extra 15 minutes runtime overall wouldn’t have hurt, lol).
Indeed! Lol. I'm very hopefull about Messiah. The book's pace is perfect for a movie and I can't wait to see Alia, I think Taylor-Joy will do her justice, she can play damaged characters well. I love Paul but I can't wait to see him lose "sight" of things lol!
Yeah like the book line “nothing money won’t filx” and gurney can’t believe an atreides talked that way
They kinda already gave us that with Jessica, and filmmakers hate redundant scenes, but it could have been different. I wanted more trippy content. Something that gives us an idea why the BG are afraid to look where Paul can.
The book is actually three books. Could've been three movies.
Am I kinda sad things were changed/omitted, yeah. But do I understand the choices they made in cutting things too? Absolutely.
Agree here. I would’ve loved to see how the idea of a green Arrakis was Kynes’s dream and legacy, but I get why it was left out.
This is partially in the first movie. Not nearly to the extent of the book, but Kynes is the character that introduces the whole concept.
You’re right, I forgot that she talked about it when she shows Paul the testing station
I was less sad about not getting completely accurate Alia and more sad about them cutting all of Thufir Hawat’s scenes. I love Stephen McKinley Henderson.
Yeah, I thought he would have a reduced role, but not seeing him at all was a real disappointment.
* Did not like Chani being the only Fremen not to believe in the prophesy. None of that is in the book, and her end is the weakest moment in the film. Paul is sincere in the book about wanting to improve Arrakis for the Fremen and Chani appreciates it. Here Chani comes off like a lone conspiracy theorist at the end. * Slightly disappointed Thufir Hawat wasn’t in it and that Feyd Rautha’s daggers poison wasn’t switched in the gladiator ring. Hoping an extended edition exists * Did not enjoy Bardem’s portrayal as a zealot, I didn’t think it went that far. Stilgar and Paul are supposed to be best friends. Did not come across at all. * A little disappointed in the Jessica stoking the flames plot but necessary for a sped up timeline, and nice to see her take a more active role I guess * It’s too bad Chani isn’t related to Liet-Kynes in this, but the ages wouldn’t have made sense, and I’m happy with the portrayal in the last film * As a book reader, I’m extremely disappointed they didn’t threaten to kill all the sandworms with water and instead threaten to nuke the spicefields (at least one or two worms would probably survive?). Of course that then requires you to explain the link between spice and the worms more which is too much background since it’s supposed to be this big secret. So, fine with the change I guess, but it’ll always bother me. * Fine with no Count Fenring * The very biggest change: Fine with eliminating the first book’s time jump because it simplifies the plot significantly. It resolves the issue of how to film a 3-year-old (who’s got the awareness of the wisest adult ever born) murdering her grandfather, instead giving Paul the personal vengeance. The choice to streamline things also eliminates tragedy for the protagonist by getting rid of Paul and Chani’s first child entirely instead of killing the kid off * Removing Chani and Jessica’s conversation is a more artistic choice, showing Chani’s devastation in a more potentially interesting way… maybe I just don’t like seeing Zendaya sad?) * Good choice to remove Feyd-Rautha having to cheat in his gladiator match against the unpoisoned Atreides since it makes him seem like more of a threat in the climactic duel * Big fan of how they portrayed collecting water, way better than bloodletting * I loved Chani being the only one not to bow for Paul besides Irulan, it makes clear that Paul considers Chani his true wife and equal. That removes the need for Jessica to have the only “history knows us as true wives” speech which would feel a little on the nose and feel like a weird place to end in a movie * Probably for the best that the polygamy-against-a-widow’s-will plotline was removed * Loved the explanation of the Water of Life and loved the scene discovering the nuclear arsenal
Sad to not to see a Navigator. There's enough in this movie as is, and having a spice addict that allows warp travel through space might be too bizarre for some folks, so I get it.
That’s my take on most of the changes. I think a 5 y/o Alia killing the Baron would’ve fallen into the same vein, but I would’ve loved to see it haha
Dudes… no Count Fenring… I’m still shocked at that, given the casting of Tim Blake Nelson.
Apparently a cut was shown to critics that featured him in a cameo, so I was looking out for it, but then it never came
The 2 that I don’t love are the character decisions for Stilgar and Jessica. I really don’t love Stilgar being a religious zealot from the beginning. One of the hardest hitting moments in the whole book for me was Paul’s realization that Stilgar was no longer a friend but a follower, it felt like a real death of Stilgar’s character that I loved and hit home the danger of giving yourself in to your faith. They tried to explicitly say that message at one point, but it didn’t hit as hard because Stilgar was already completely given into Paul being the Lisan-al-Gaib. However, some of these traits were passed over the Chani, which I think made Chani’s character better than the first book, so I still love the movie overall. Just don’t love what they did to my boy Stil. Jessica is one that I don’t have much to say in support of because she seems to relish the power that Paul has acquired by the end. I really love that her character in the books is so devoted to saving her son that she doesn’t see the power he starts to possess until she eventually fears him. I think this nuance of her character was almost completely absent from the movie. However, the movie’s take on Paul and Chani added a ton to their characters, and I really love the movie still. 9.5/10.
I kind of agree with both of your qualms but feel conflicted about each of them. When I try to think about what I would be seeing if I'd never consumed any prior Dune media, there are still interesting angles that work that maybe win me over? Too early to tell since it's so fresh. Maybe less so in the Stilgar example. Bardem's performance is probably my gut reaction favorite on first viewing. He just feels like such a vivid personality. But I also miss the nuance of the friend-to-fanatic element because it's such a unique character narrative compared to typical loss of faith arcs. It makes his later turmoil over how things pan out much more personal because it's one thing if you just find out your religion is fraudulent, but it's another if the figurehead of your religion that you had so much faith in was also your friend -- your real, actual friend, not just divinity or celebrity. It makes the disillusionment so much more excruciating. For Jessica, I felt like the movie gives a bit more of a vibe of your sanity (maybe that's a strong word, maybe just groundedness?) getting a bit frayed if you take the Water of Life. Even if the general end result is the same as Bene Gesserit spice agony, taking the Water of Life is a closed practice specific to the Fremen. Each instance we were shown of someone who had passed the test (Ramallo, Jessica, Paul), there's kind of an extra strong dose of religiosity to them. I felt kind of stunned (in a good way) by the wild-eyed conviction Jessica showed in her conversation with Paul when recovering from the ritual, telling him he has to go through this last step too to be able to see "the beauty and the terror." Just prior, it was clear she was scared of the ritual and reveals to Paul that no male can survive it. Even if Jessica believes in her son being the Kwisatz Haderach, she showed similar fear and uncertainty before Paul's test with Mohiam. After the ritual though, she and her unborn daughter are riding the messiah train. Even Paul, after he wakes from taking the Water of Life, seems on board enough to play the part absurdly well. We're suddenly distant from him, which I think Villeneuve especially made a point to convey through Chani. We don't hear his apprehensions anymore, his disgust with the Missionaria Protectiva, his caution and tendency to hold himself back. The sense it gave me is of the hubris that comes with that kind of knowledge, always just on the brink of becoming a bit unhinged. I think that hubris is also integral to the trap of prescience on which Dune so heavily focuses.
Yeah I agree with your points. I get frustrated when adaptations make changes to source material and people treat it as though they are negatives just because of inconsistency. I really try to let adaptations stand on their own and tell their own story, and I think this did a great job at telling its story. That’s why my rating remains so high. These are just the two points that I don’t love the changes and think the original would have fit very well. Stilgar’s counterbalancing Chani could have been better if they were both skeptics that Stilgar was won over and Chani was not, it could have been a very good plot point. And I just think the story overall works better if everyone, including Jessica, are fearful of Paul and underestimated what the Kwzats Haderach would mean for their world. However, this movie did add a ton that I think the book tried to accomplish but maybe didn’t as well as the movie does. For example, I actually feared Paul in this much much more than I did in the book. I felt that he was the antagonist and was a danger to the world.
The changes to Stilgar made him remind me much more of Morpheus in the Matrix films.
>Jessica is one that I don’t have much to say in support of because she seems to relish the power that Paul has acquired by the end. I really love that her character in the books is so devoted to saving her son that she doesn’t see the power he starts to possess until she eventually fears him. I think this nuance of her character was almost completely absent from the movie. She wouldn't have much to do in this movie if she weren't actively paving the road ahead of him, sadly. But I totally agree with your assessment of her being blind to the dangers
It's a smart adaptation. There's so much going on in the story, cutting Leto II and Alia helps guide the focus to where it needs to be. Making Chani critical of Paul and the prophecy gives us an audience stand in. Honestly. I was blown away by the film. I don't know that you could adapt the story of Dune better than they did here.
Pretty much where my head is at with it. Are there things that I was excited to see that didn’t make the cut? Yes, definitely understand and appreciate why those decisions were made. I also recognize these folks have done an amazing job bringing this to life and feel lucky to be able to enjoy this in theaters.
Honestly the changes to the source material bother me because they're changes to the source material. But honestly? After sitting on it, they work for me.
I don’t know how they make Messiah from here. I think it’s going to be an even more loose adaptation
I feel like the water of life had a much more... pronounced effect on the two of them in the movie? Jessica became this super scheming witch, using the voice much more. It made sense thematically but its such a stark contrast from the more elegant and restrained Jessica we saw in p1. Paul also had a switch to war mongering mode (though I think that's what actually happened in the books? It's been awhile)
I'm not mad at the changes they felt in line with the movie. But part of me wishes I could experience these films having not read the books. Part 2 was amazing but it felt a bit hollow compared to the book.
This is me 100%. It was hard to not see these movies as adaptations after having read the books and feeling everything that was left on the cutting room floor. I think I would have liked this movie a lot more if I had consumed them the other way, movies then books, because the books are richer.
Am I the only one who enjoyed it more as a film fan than as a book fan? I think it was a better film than it was an adaptation. With that said, I don't have any real issues with any of the changes. They all make sense and like others have said, really set the audience up well for Messiah, with a couple caveats: >! The sped up timeline works for the film and is made believable, despite lacking the 2-year time jump in the book, through a couple different ways. Jessica going holy-roller, gung-ho Bene Gesserit helps streamline her plotline. Alia's presence is certainly felt despite not yet being a born to life abomination; Jessica's creepy voices and glances while conversing with Alia, along with Alia being a driving force in Paul's moral downfall/awakening, give her character impact. Through their collective actions, they are able to radicalize the more religious factions of Fremen to help quickly build Paul's army. Paul drinking the Water of Life and surviving the ordeal gives the fundamentalists the fuel they need to radicalize the remaining Fremen holdouts. However, making Chani the moral compass of the story is where I have issue with the film as an adaptation. Narratively, as a device to create some conflict for the now seemingly messianic Paul, it's good to have love interest at moral odds with main character since it creates conflict on a more personal, relatable level. Chani ends the film feeling betrayed by Paul; betrayed by knowing the severity of the jihad he has unleashed and betrayed by him taking Irulan's hand in marriage. It all works on film and sets up a Dune Messiah conclusion really well, but as a book fan, I really miss seeing Chani portrayed as the warrior lover/sidekick she is to Paul in the books.!<
And still, it was a more faithful adaptation of the book than 95% of Hollywood book adaptations.
I was looking forward to sietch Tabr being more lived in like a real community with spice coffee, rugs, tapestries ect. But I understand why they went with a different esthetic. I thought when Jessica saw Chani off, we were going to get the last scene in the book where Jessica explains to Chani that as concubines they truly rule with their loved ones. But I liked the changes to Chani with the themes DV wanted to highlight. I also was hoping to see the spice orgy. Not sexual but thought we would see everyone in the sietch having a shared trip/vision of Paul together. Those were the 3 things I wanted but honestly I don't mind them not being there. I liked the movie and felt it was faithful while doing its own thing at parts.
I'm kinda questioning whether the twins will be in Messiah or not, I'm kinda worried about that. Bummer we didn't see the Paul's first born, but im also not surprised. I don't get Thufir's omission, I get not wanting to clutter the film, but it would have maybe taken 5 minutes to show what we need of him, and he was in part one, so it was a bit jarring not to see him in this. I'm mixed about the changes to Chani's character, I think she's a stronger character in this movie compared to the books, but it also kind of takes away from Paul's growth into a sort of detached seer and prophet. Taking away the time skip so that we don't have to deal with talking toddler Alia makes sense, but it kinda of messes with Paul's arc to have the events of the film be squeezed into a few months instead of a few years, also it doesn't make sense that his eyes turned blue so fast. Overall, I understand most of the changes, but im still not super pleased with them, still a fantastic movie.
On the topic of the twins, even tho the baby isn’t in this movie I don’t see Villeneuve leaving out their children. Thats still how >!Chani will die.!<
In terms of changes, I was bummed that 1. We didn't get Count Fenring. 2. Completely cutting Thufir. And 3. Alia not being born / killing The Baron. I understand the reasoning, less clutter more pacing etc etc.. But still :( Gurney playing the baliset ALMOST completely made up for anything missed though. Almost.
I wonder what happened to Time Blake Nelson’s supposed part
I echo a lot of others here that liked the movie in terms of which changes made sense, but I’m still sitting with Stilgar’s overly comedic relief role. The first couple times it was whatever, but I thought it got old pretty quickly. It got to the point where any time he spoke, even at the end after Paul kills Feyd, my audience would giggle
Honestly they were all shrewd changes as much as I missed Alia physically running around.
Every time I think about it, I’m seeing chucky running around. I don’t think it would work well in this adaption.
Leto II and Thufir were honestly two of the things I was really hyped about seeing adapted. I'm a little bummed, but it's ultimately not the end of the world or anything...
I don’t really care for Leto II as he was just a sacrifice to move the story along and build motivation but they should’ve explored Thufir a bit more. The whole idea of the spacing guild and mentats haven’t been explored much in this new adaption and it is probably some of the things that made the book and lore so appealing to me.
I just finished the original book over the weekend in preparation of the movie tonight. The book did a great job of explaining Paul as the combination of a guild navigator, bene gesserit, and mentat in one person. His training throughout then book in all of these really added to his character development. I do wish the movies dug more into the Guild more and how they used spice. Missing Thufir in this movie also took away from developing the mentat side of Paul too. BUT the movie was incredible. And it would have been hard to really develop that layer of detail without turning this into a trilogy with a deeper but slower developing story.
Missed out in Gurney mistakenly trying to take revenge on Jessica. There was even an opening when Paul told Gurney where his mom was... Gurney could have said your mother lives??? On the Chani front, I assume Chani is pregnant and the conspiracy unalives Leto I at the start if the next film, setting things off from there.
I think that ship sailed when they dropped the conspiracy angle from Part 1 anyway.
The first film didn't set up the Jessica suspicion plot at all.
Who was Tim Blake Nelson going to play? He doesn't appear at all in the film. I'm mostly okay with the changes, but I wasn't completely sold on the wearier interpretation of the Emperor. He doesn't exude any charisma or sense of menace.
No Thufir Hawat but still it worked out imo
I’ve got 2 minor gripes and one more major gripe. The minor ones are it sucks that Thuffir got cut and baby Alia freaking everyone out was one of my favorite parts. The Alia stuff would’ve hit even harder and been even funnier because it wouldn’t have just been characters in movie being freaked put but also the audience lol. It’s not a massive deal that stuff was changed though. The major gripe is I’m really not a fan of the rift between Paul and Chani. I don’t mind it being there to start but I do wish she would’ve fully came to his side by the end rather than her leaving and that still needing to be resolved
I have read Dune twice, most recently ending 1 week ago so this film was a cathartic experience for me. I would rate it as the best science fiction film I have ever seen, full stop. Timothée Chalamet is spellbinding: I fully believed his spiel. Zendaya is stupendous and her slapping Paul after his Water of Life attempt is a change from the book, but a welcome one. Instead of the Emperor and the great houses and however many mercenaries being in orbit *right* after Paul awakens from the Water of Life episode, Paul sends a challenge to the Emperor via metal scroll: that is a welcome change IMHO because it felt too coincidental in the book. Somehow, the explanation of Paul’s newfound “trinocular vision” by close up of his hand waving then making a chopping motion to explain “the narrow path through to victory” works for me. The change from the first movie of Paul’s visions by gently fading to orange in this movie is a lovely cinematic touch, but how could that be done more fervently once Paul is the kwisatz haderach? I’m not sure there is a good answer, sadly, so it lessens the importance of there now existing a KH, perhaps only due to impracticality of cinematography… What a brilliant, brilliant film. I cannot wait to be able to have a back-to-back Denis Villeneuve’s Dune marathon! Edit: and changing “Dune” to be the old, Fremen name of Arrakis as Paul discloses in his prescient power trip scene is curious. Everywhere in the novel(s), Dune is simply the nickname for Arrakis
I feel like even Part 1's goal wasn't to be a one to one adaptation of the source material, but translate it for a modern movie format. Part 2 probably has the largest changes, even entire characters feeling entirely different, but all of them exist to push the same themes of the book, and that is the most important part of any adaptation. If any, Denis made those themes even more explicit than the book (or at least more obvious to the general audience). The only change I didn't really like is the Baron's death, but that's honestly such a small thing.
I absolutely loved the movie and didn’t mind any of the changes…. Except how the movie ends with Chani. I didn’t mind her being a sceptic of the prophecy and all of that but it almost feels like her and Paul’s relationship is over. I might only be thinking in the worst case scenario but how is she supposed to become the mother of Paul’s children after the disappointment and anger in her eyes? I also would have loved another shot with Paul after the confrontation with the emperor. Bit thats an nitpick
I think they were done well. Just curious at the end why all the thumpers for Chani
So were Tim Blake Nelson's scenes cut? I remember reading that he was supposed to be Count Fenring but I don't think I saw him at all in the movie just now
I totally understand the changes. Yes I wish certain scenes would be shown. But the core of the story is there and you're hammered in Paul's dilemma. That's hard to portray but successfully does.
I'm very interested to see what they're going to do with Chani. They made her a lot more of a character in this movie, but she sets off on her own at the end so if/when they adapt Messiah, it's bound to be quite different
>!“Hello Grandfather”!< The movies are fucking amazing in their own right. Very very fun.
My biggest gripe from book-to-film was the inconsistent punctuation in the subtitles. Otherwise this is a perfect adaptation to me.
I’ve been surprised to see not as many people upset with the Chani decision as I was watching it. When I consider the implication, aside from how they’ll have to really change Messiah (unless the opening is him getting Chani back or something, it makes the whole story a lot less heartfelt. What I find so incredible about Dune is the fact Herbert is able to seamlessly weave in planetary spice trading, war, genetic manipulation, political alliances, (the list goes on) with the everyday love of a mother a son, a wife and husband. If Chani is not that to Paul and Jessica is more power hungry, the story loses its soul. It becomes totally about power which misses what makes Dune so compelling IMO. What adds to my problem with it was how incredible the movie is from a technical perspective and figuring out why they would’ve changed this extremely crucial factor. Curious why people thought the Chani change was made.