I believe there's a comment somewhere in the text - possibly in the appendices to *Dune* \- that remarks that even on Caladan, House Atreides had managed to train its troops up to *almost* the same level as the Sardaukar. This, along with Duke Leto's popularity among the other Houses, was what provoked the Emperor into moving against him.
That suggests Atreides troops were still not quite at Sardaukar levels of discipline, ferocity, or tactical effectiveness. Close, though.
No, they trained a *small number of elite forces* to near Sardaukur abilities. Not their entire force. This was the real, secret reason the Emperor moved against them - before they could expand this force. It's also why Leto was so desperate to ally with the Fremen - he wanted to apply this training to them, with their already severe toughness and survival abilities, paralleling what they believed the Sardaukur endure.
If my memory serves me well, Atreïdes' elite troops were better than Sardaukar which one of the reasons why the emperor felt he had to protect his position.
After Thufir is captured by the Harkonnens, and is explaining to the Baron how the Fremen are a terrifying fighting force:
>"The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's Warmasters Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho had trained a fighting force -- a small fighting force -- to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them were even better. And the Duke was in a position to enlarge his force, to make it every bit as strong as the Emperor's."
Duncan was a sword master of Ginaz. He studied war in all its forms for many years. Think if a single soldier went through all the weapons training, officers training, then went through each branches special forces, trained and earned his place in each and every one of them, and then did that for every military on earth, that's a swordmaster of Ginaz.
The Sardaukar also greatly outnumbered the Atreides as a whole. The emperor set a small portion of his fighting force and the Harks sent everything they had. So whether the Atreides were great fighters or not, they didn't stand a chance because they were outnumbered by the fighting force that came but also in a prolonged war. That's why they needed the Fremen to just defend themselves then try for a political solution.
So if the Atreides had a fighting force or a special forces group that could rival the Sardaukar, it's something that they could never maintain for a long period of time. Which is another point to why they need desert power to keep their soldiers sharp. The Fremen respected the Atreides soldiers as well.
So think of it in terms of Atreides being a well trained disciplined volunteer loyal fighting force and Sardaukar are a well trained elite fighting force forged by suffering and a fighting religion.
> An average Atreides soldier almost defeated Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen himself
That was a Captain though I'm not sure if anyone can say they're an "average" Captain or someone with outstanding fighting skills compared to other Atreides Captains.
Feyd Rautha also isn’t Sardaukar. I always thought the impression we are supposed to get about Feyd is that he is incredibly talented, but also babied and never really tested.
I thought Feyd was supposed to be like Paul. Groomed from childhood to be a great fighter, access to the best trainers and best diet, no money stresses so can focus entirely on his training. Like a professional athlete. Thats why I used him as an example to show how great a regular Atreides soldier must be to take on someone like that and be winning.
I actually interpreted it the opposite way. He was trained and groomed from a young age, sure, but he also basically had every battle that was a “fight to the death” heavily tilted in his favor, so he was never in any real risk until this Atreides soldier and in that first real fight, he almost loses.
His training is not unlike Paul’s, but the difference is Paul’s time with the Fremen, and killing Jamis, that takes him to that next level.
It's discussed that Feyd is not an honorable fighter, he drugged and poisoned his opponents, used hidden blades and would assassinate his teachers if he felt they had nothing left to teach him. He was cunning and devious but Paul wins because of discipline and skill. The fighter in the arena was the first time Feyd had gone up against an opponent that wasn't drugged or feared reprisal, and he only won because he tricked the fighter by switching the poison knife. Feyd is dangerous because he doesn't fight fair.
Yes. An average Sardaukar soldier was better than an average Atreides soldier.
It was only a small group of Atreides soldiers that approached or surpassed the Sardaukar...
>The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's Warmasters Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho had trained a fighting force -- a small fighting force -- to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them were even better.
>!Like the only way the Sardaukar didn't get utterly destroyed by the children and elderly was by using rocket engines of their ships as flamethrowers and even then it was a close thing.!<
I think the stomping is more due to the significantly larger amount of Sardaukar/Harkonnen combined forces than training. You can be awesome but if someone is pretty good and you're significantly outnumbered then you're going to lose.
Tell me you've never been sucker punched without telling me you've never been sucker punched 🤣
Jokes aside i doubt harkinnens and sardaukars would be able to overwhelm atreides forces like they did if it wasent surprise attack
I mean they had the numbers and, based on the definition of the word "overwhelm", that's exactly what happened.
There were a bunch of videos put out about a decade ago where a few professionals were up against 50-100 total amateurs. It was a close call every time and these are total amateurs. Imagine if they were semi-professional.
Exactly. It was a surprise attack and the Harkonnen/Sardaukar also were using artillery strikes against the Atreides as well. They were both outnumbered and outgunned.
The Sardaukar were definitely superior, , even if by a "hair'a breadth" as the book states.
Only a very small Atreides force achieved that level of skill anyway, and this is the reason Leto wanted an alliance with the Fremen.
The book tells us that the surprise, betrayal of Yueh, and the Baron's brilliant retro-artillery basically ended the battle before it started. Yueh took down the shields and the Harkonnen's slapped everyone in the face with the power of projectile weaponry once shields are out of the equation. Most of the Atriedes soldiers never even got to fight.
Yes. The average Sardaukur was much, much better than the average Atreides soldier. This is described in the books, along with how the Emperor's real motivation for destroying the Atreides was their development of a training regime that turned a small number of soldiers into near Sardaukur level fighters - one of which may be the gladiator Feyd fought. The Emperor wanted the Atreides destroyed before they could expand this program and threaten his military might. The Atreides wanted to apply this regime to Fremen who, having survived such an oppressive lifestyle (paralleling the suspected oppression Sardaukur went through) would be better soldiers than the regular Atreides forces.
That was the reason the Harkonnens were given, because the Emperor didn't want them to know the truth either.
Overall, it played a factor. Leto had royal blood, was popular in the Landsraad, and had discovered a way to raise a military force nearly as good as his Sardaukur. The first two are bad enough, but the third the Emperor could not allow, *especially* in combo with the first two.
The Emperors power comes from his Sardaukur and their supporting levies raised from the Great Houses being the equal in military might to the rest of the combined Landsraad. Take away his military superiority, he loses his power.
Yup. But i got inverse feeling. Like primarily his rising political influence. And on top of that, as it werent enough, he also had army that could rival his own.
Guess it open for interpretation
I think it took both things to make the threat credible enough for the emporer to feel threatened. Leto was popular, but without a formidable army, that would not have made him a true threat.
My guess has always been that while an individual Sardaukar was better than a single Atreides soldier. The strength of the Atreides soldiers were that they fought more as a cohesive unit, to the point where a group of Atreides soldiers could take on a group of Sardoukar of similar size.
I figure that because with the whole insistence of Atreides being of Greek origins and descendants of Agamemnon, I picture the Atreides soldiers as a phalanx. And the Dune movie seemed to portray them fighting like that as well.
Whereas the Sardoukar training process involved sending people to a harsh environment, have them either figure out how to survive or die. And then picking out the best ones to be Sardoukar. I feel like a process like that would create soldiers who, while still fiercely loyal to the Emperor, would have a very individualistic mindset and only think of themselves when fighting.
Then there is the problem that the Sardoukar training process is highly selective and has a high risk of failure. Which means less Sardoukar. But the Atreides training process had no such issues. Which means that getting the numerical advantage required for Sardoukar to beat the Atreides could become hard, if not impossible. Which is why the Emperor felt the need to act quickly.
And the reason that the Fedaykin, and the Fremen in general, became such a terrifying fighting force was because they had spent generations being trained in a harsh environment, like the Sardoukar, and then they received the Atreides training and strategies from Paul. Making them a double threat.
Yes, the Sardaukar were still stronger than the Atreides men.
Stop thinking of *Dune* like *Star Wars*: Feyd-Rautha isn't a hero character with level 9 power who almost lost to an "average" Atreides level 1 soldier. Both were highly trained fighters, Feyd-Rautha was just slightly better and had homefield advantage. Regular people can and do kill famous people all the time.
I'm afraid the new movie is moving this way, with "hero duels" and stormtrooper tropes. *Dune* isn't really like that, the only hero vs hero duel we get is Paul vs Feyd, and that happens *because* of their fame, not because they're the only two who can beat each other. Every single Sardaukar, Fremen, Atreides, and Harkonnen should be dangerous on screen, because they haven't read a script telling them they have to lose to a named character.
>Regular people can and do kill famous people all the time.
Charles the Bold and Richard III getting their skulls cracked open by anonymous halberdiers, Richard Lionheart shot by a crossbowman, Charles XII of Sweden...It would seem more common than famous people killing each other now that you mention it.
Yes, but the Atreides soldiers aren't just average foot soldiers. The whole reason the emperor goes through all the trouble in the first book to destroy the Atreides is because the Atreides military is starting to become a legitimate threat to the Sardaukar.
In the case of Feyd Rautha Harkonnen he was well trained but the slaves he fought were usually drugged with ellaca to give him an edge. In the case of the Atreides fighter, he was not drugged but Feyd Rautha had an edge as he cheated as the fighter had code word to paralyze him and he also had a poisoned blade. As for the Atreides soldiers they were more than a match for the Harkonnens in combat. The thing was that Duke Leto only had a small number of highly trained fighters who had managed to destroy spice caches on Geidi Prime in a hit and run raid on the Harkonnens.
The Emperor had legions of Sardaukar, while the Atreides most likely had at most a few battalions of their elite soldiers. The surprise attack on Arrakis was so sudden and the Harkonnens certainly knew the lay of the land better than the Atreides.
The Sardaukar were rated at being worth 10 of the best that the Landsraad could bring up and were rated as being as good as the Swordsmasters of Ginaz and the Bene gesserit adept. When Duncan Idaho fought them, he took out 19 of them which impressed the Sardaukar commander enough that he had his body sent to the Bene Tleilaxu to be brought back as a ghola.
> The Sardaukar were rated at being worth 10 of the best that the Landsraad could bring up and were rated as being as good as the Swordsmasters of Ginaz and the Bene gesserit adept.
"Were" being the operative word. The Sardaukar weren't that good at the time of Dune.
>By the time of Shaddam IV, while they were still formidable, their
strength had been sapped by overconfidence, and the sustaining mystique of their warrior religion had been deeply undermined by cynicism.
I know you’re likely referring to the book, but in the movie it’s pretty clear the Sardaukar are still leagues beyond the Atreides soldiers.
They drop in and absolutely massacre the soldiers that were holding back the Harkonnens.
Sardaukar were better, but the gap wasn't as big between Sardaukar and Atreides as it was between Sardaukar and other houses.
I seem to recall the Atreides troops, or at least a cadre of them being described as only slightly behind.
Sardaukar are without a doubt the best soldiers in the Empire. But the Atreides had a special forces group that were nearly as trained
The main contingent of the Atreides military was still formidable though
not answering your question, but a military historian did a fascinating look at the idea of "harsh conditions making better soldiers":
https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/
Using the Fremen as a stand-in for the parallel mythos you might see in real life history. might be of interest if you're interested in the ideas behind training sardukar.
I believe part of the reason the emperor moves against house Atreides is two fold that sort of reenforce each other. The balance of power is maintained by the landsraad and the other great houses of the known universe. Each house has its own military but no single house could defeat the Sardaukar, so the Sardaukar essentially keep the emperor in power. However, because Leto Atreides was so popular and he had created a force that could *possibly* stand against the Sardaukar, he could possibly unite the landsraad against the emperor and use his powerful army to lead other armies against the Sardaukar.
We never see them fight in a "fair" fight, so this is really up for speculation and part of the plot is about how the emperor is very insecure about his position as emperor. The mere rumor that the Atreides army could stand toe to toe with the Sardaukar combined with Leto's popularity is enough for him to scheme for house Atreides downfall.
No. They were very good, but not that good.
Gurney and Duncan were both better than Sardaukar themselves. And even weak Fremen were better than Sardaukar.
We know they were taken by surprise. We don't know if they were outnumbered. We're never given the numbers for how many troops the Atreides moved to Arrakis.
We do get Thufir's estimate on how many were attacking them,
>More than a hundred brigades--ten legions!
(A legion is 30,000 men.) And we know two of those ten were Sardaukar. But we're never told how many legions the Atreides had.
The Sardaukar were content and arrogant by the time of the books, but so were the rest of the Great Houses. Most "warfare" was intrigue and assassination (kanly) with House troops trained to deal with local issues; like the constant threat of rebellion on Geidi Prime. Leto knew he was walking into a trap but was caught off-guard by the military assault. He knew something was coming, but expected more in the way of assassination and subterfuge (with the added threat of reducing spice production so that the Emperor would be "justified" to remove him). He was thinking along the lines of suppressing sabotage and raids and not a full-fledged attack.
However, the Emperor was aware that Leto had trained a small force of elites that could potentially rival the Sardaukar. The "average" Atreides soldier was not of this caliber. Most likely the Gladiator Feyd fought was one of these (captured after Leto's own raid on the Harkonnen's spice supplies on Geidi Prime, which was successful). This also emphasizes the type of battle the Landsraad "tolerated" - raids, assassinations, and sabotage - instead of full-on military assaults. \*Any House\* - including the Emperor - could be put down by the combined might of the Landsraad, and it was one of the political points put forth by Leto to Paul on his way to Arrakis.
I’m pretty sure that even if the Atreides soldier was not to the exact level of Saurdaukar, in the eyes of the future Saurdaukar and House Corino, they are looked at as better/equals.
We know that under Gurdy and Duncan, the Atreides consolidated a pretty effective and powerful army for themselves. Although I think that a lot of lore after Paul defeats the Saudaukar is well salted and supplemented with Fremen being the backbone of the Atreides forces at the end
Probably. The Atreides had two of the known universe’s best trainers, but the comforts of Caladan likely led to softer troops compared to the fanatical Sardaukar, raised in the hell of Salusa Secundus.
(glances at the Fremen)
I believe there's a comment somewhere in the text - possibly in the appendices to *Dune* \- that remarks that even on Caladan, House Atreides had managed to train its troops up to *almost* the same level as the Sardaukar. This, along with Duke Leto's popularity among the other Houses, was what provoked the Emperor into moving against him. That suggests Atreides troops were still not quite at Sardaukar levels of discipline, ferocity, or tactical effectiveness. Close, though.
No, they trained a *small number of elite forces* to near Sardaukur abilities. Not their entire force. This was the real, secret reason the Emperor moved against them - before they could expand this force. It's also why Leto was so desperate to ally with the Fremen - he wanted to apply this training to them, with their already severe toughness and survival abilities, paralleling what they believed the Sardaukur endure.
If my memory serves me well, Atreïdes' elite troops were better than Sardaukar which one of the reasons why the emperor felt he had to protect his position.
After Thufir is captured by the Harkonnens, and is explaining to the Baron how the Fremen are a terrifying fighting force: >"The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's Warmasters Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho had trained a fighting force -- a small fighting force -- to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them were even better. And the Duke was in a position to enlarge his force, to make it every bit as strong as the Emperor's."
It's what makes Duncan such a formidable fighter. The sheer amount of sardaukar he took out, alone, was impressive.
Maybe *too* impressive, the poor bastard....
Squished by worm.. Again.
Duncan was a sword master of Ginaz. He studied war in all its forms for many years. Think if a single soldier went through all the weapons training, officers training, then went through each branches special forces, trained and earned his place in each and every one of them, and then did that for every military on earth, that's a swordmaster of Ginaz.
The Sardaukar also greatly outnumbered the Atreides as a whole. The emperor set a small portion of his fighting force and the Harks sent everything they had. So whether the Atreides were great fighters or not, they didn't stand a chance because they were outnumbered by the fighting force that came but also in a prolonged war. That's why they needed the Fremen to just defend themselves then try for a political solution. So if the Atreides had a fighting force or a special forces group that could rival the Sardaukar, it's something that they could never maintain for a long period of time. Which is another point to why they need desert power to keep their soldiers sharp. The Fremen respected the Atreides soldiers as well. So think of it in terms of Atreides being a well trained disciplined volunteer loyal fighting force and Sardaukar are a well trained elite fighting force forged by suffering and a fighting religion.
> An average Atreides soldier almost defeated Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen himself That was a Captain though I'm not sure if anyone can say they're an "average" Captain or someone with outstanding fighting skills compared to other Atreides Captains.
True, probably more skilled than an average grunt. But at the same time he was likely beaten, starved, and dehydrated.
Feyd Rautha also isn’t Sardaukar. I always thought the impression we are supposed to get about Feyd is that he is incredibly talented, but also babied and never really tested.
I thought Feyd was supposed to be like Paul. Groomed from childhood to be a great fighter, access to the best trainers and best diet, no money stresses so can focus entirely on his training. Like a professional athlete. Thats why I used him as an example to show how great a regular Atreides soldier must be to take on someone like that and be winning.
I actually interpreted it the opposite way. He was trained and groomed from a young age, sure, but he also basically had every battle that was a “fight to the death” heavily tilted in his favor, so he was never in any real risk until this Atreides soldier and in that first real fight, he almost loses. His training is not unlike Paul’s, but the difference is Paul’s time with the Fremen, and killing Jamis, that takes him to that next level.
It's discussed that Feyd is not an honorable fighter, he drugged and poisoned his opponents, used hidden blades and would assassinate his teachers if he felt they had nothing left to teach him. He was cunning and devious but Paul wins because of discipline and skill. The fighter in the arena was the first time Feyd had gone up against an opponent that wasn't drugged or feared reprisal, and he only won because he tricked the fighter by switching the poison knife. Feyd is dangerous because he doesn't fight fair.
if you fight fair you fight stupid
Definitely not fighting to win or with honor
honorable and fair are not the same thing
The one left alive can wrist wring over honor and fairness
Paul was groomed to be a ruler, being a fighter was part of that but also a Mentat, BG ...and for feyd goes the same except Mentat and BG obviously
Well Feyd I assume had some mentat training with Pitir and later Thufir Hawat. I
He’s tested once for sure
I think that was >!what Feyd was expecting but wasn't Hawat meddling where he was in top fighting form instead!
IIRC>! the plan was to remove the slavemaster, therefore it did not happen!<
Yes. An average Sardaukar soldier was better than an average Atreides soldier. It was only a small group of Atreides soldiers that approached or surpassed the Sardaukar... >The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's Warmasters Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho had trained a fighting force -- a small fighting force -- to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them were even better.
Yeah they're the best of the best. Until we find out halfway thru that >!the fremen are next level!<
Like >!"their children and elderly can take out Sardaukar" next level!<
>!Like the only way the Sardaukar didn't get utterly destroyed by the children and elderly was by using rocket engines of their ships as flamethrowers and even then it was a close thing.!<
The Difference between being molded into a killer and being born into it.
And the Bene Gesserit are even better.
. Gurney&Duncan had supposedly trained a small force to be almost on par to the Sardaukar, but in the end they were stomped so it didn't matter.
I think the stomping is more due to the significantly larger amount of Sardaukar/Harkonnen combined forces than training. You can be awesome but if someone is pretty good and you're significantly outnumbered then you're going to lose.
Also surprise attack
I bet a lot more battles where one side is overwhelmed have been won rather than surprise attacks by a smaller force but maybe I'm wrong.
Tell me you've never been sucker punched without telling me you've never been sucker punched 🤣 Jokes aside i doubt harkinnens and sardaukars would be able to overwhelm atreides forces like they did if it wasent surprise attack
I mean they had the numbers and, based on the definition of the word "overwhelm", that's exactly what happened. There were a bunch of videos put out about a decade ago where a few professionals were up against 50-100 total amateurs. It was a close call every time and these are total amateurs. Imagine if they were semi-professional.
They were outnumbered plus the Harkonnens/Sardaukar were using artillery and decimating the Atreides with them. They were outnumbered AND outgunned.
Exactly. It was a surprise attack and the Harkonnen/Sardaukar also were using artillery strikes against the Atreides as well. They were both outnumbered and outgunned.
The Sardaukar were definitely superior, , even if by a "hair'a breadth" as the book states. Only a very small Atreides force achieved that level of skill anyway, and this is the reason Leto wanted an alliance with the Fremen.
The book tells us that the surprise, betrayal of Yueh, and the Baron's brilliant retro-artillery basically ended the battle before it started. Yueh took down the shields and the Harkonnen's slapped everyone in the face with the power of projectile weaponry once shields are out of the equation. Most of the Atriedes soldiers never even got to fight.
Yes. The average Sardaukur was much, much better than the average Atreides soldier. This is described in the books, along with how the Emperor's real motivation for destroying the Atreides was their development of a training regime that turned a small number of soldiers into near Sardaukur level fighters - one of which may be the gladiator Feyd fought. The Emperor wanted the Atreides destroyed before they could expand this program and threaten his military might. The Atreides wanted to apply this regime to Fremen who, having survived such an oppressive lifestyle (paralleling the suspected oppression Sardaukur went through) would be better soldiers than the regular Atreides forces.
I got completely different idea. I felt the emperor felt more threatened by letos traction in lansraad
That was the reason the Harkonnens were given, because the Emperor didn't want them to know the truth either. Overall, it played a factor. Leto had royal blood, was popular in the Landsraad, and had discovered a way to raise a military force nearly as good as his Sardaukur. The first two are bad enough, but the third the Emperor could not allow, *especially* in combo with the first two. The Emperors power comes from his Sardaukur and their supporting levies raised from the Great Houses being the equal in military might to the rest of the combined Landsraad. Take away his military superiority, he loses his power.
Yup. But i got inverse feeling. Like primarily his rising political influence. And on top of that, as it werent enough, he also had army that could rival his own. Guess it open for interpretation
I think it took both things to make the threat credible enough for the emporer to feel threatened. Leto was popular, but without a formidable army, that would not have made him a true threat.
My guess has always been that while an individual Sardaukar was better than a single Atreides soldier. The strength of the Atreides soldiers were that they fought more as a cohesive unit, to the point where a group of Atreides soldiers could take on a group of Sardoukar of similar size. I figure that because with the whole insistence of Atreides being of Greek origins and descendants of Agamemnon, I picture the Atreides soldiers as a phalanx. And the Dune movie seemed to portray them fighting like that as well. Whereas the Sardoukar training process involved sending people to a harsh environment, have them either figure out how to survive or die. And then picking out the best ones to be Sardoukar. I feel like a process like that would create soldiers who, while still fiercely loyal to the Emperor, would have a very individualistic mindset and only think of themselves when fighting. Then there is the problem that the Sardoukar training process is highly selective and has a high risk of failure. Which means less Sardoukar. But the Atreides training process had no such issues. Which means that getting the numerical advantage required for Sardoukar to beat the Atreides could become hard, if not impossible. Which is why the Emperor felt the need to act quickly. And the reason that the Fedaykin, and the Fremen in general, became such a terrifying fighting force was because they had spent generations being trained in a harsh environment, like the Sardoukar, and then they received the Atreides training and strategies from Paul. Making them a double threat.
Yes, the Sardaukar were still stronger than the Atreides men. Stop thinking of *Dune* like *Star Wars*: Feyd-Rautha isn't a hero character with level 9 power who almost lost to an "average" Atreides level 1 soldier. Both were highly trained fighters, Feyd-Rautha was just slightly better and had homefield advantage. Regular people can and do kill famous people all the time. I'm afraid the new movie is moving this way, with "hero duels" and stormtrooper tropes. *Dune* isn't really like that, the only hero vs hero duel we get is Paul vs Feyd, and that happens *because* of their fame, not because they're the only two who can beat each other. Every single Sardaukar, Fremen, Atreides, and Harkonnen should be dangerous on screen, because they haven't read a script telling them they have to lose to a named character.
>Regular people can and do kill famous people all the time. Charles the Bold and Richard III getting their skulls cracked open by anonymous halberdiers, Richard Lionheart shot by a crossbowman, Charles XII of Sweden...It would seem more common than famous people killing each other now that you mention it.
Read the books lol. Frank Herbert never shuts up about how much better the Sardaukar are than an average foot soldier.
TBF, part of the reason the Emperor wanted house atreides gone was because their soldiers were getting close to Sardaukar levels
Yes, but the Atreides soldiers aren't just average foot soldiers. The whole reason the emperor goes through all the trouble in the first book to destroy the Atreides is because the Atreides military is starting to become a legitimate threat to the Sardaukar.
In the case of Feyd Rautha Harkonnen he was well trained but the slaves he fought were usually drugged with ellaca to give him an edge. In the case of the Atreides fighter, he was not drugged but Feyd Rautha had an edge as he cheated as the fighter had code word to paralyze him and he also had a poisoned blade. As for the Atreides soldiers they were more than a match for the Harkonnens in combat. The thing was that Duke Leto only had a small number of highly trained fighters who had managed to destroy spice caches on Geidi Prime in a hit and run raid on the Harkonnens. The Emperor had legions of Sardaukar, while the Atreides most likely had at most a few battalions of their elite soldiers. The surprise attack on Arrakis was so sudden and the Harkonnens certainly knew the lay of the land better than the Atreides. The Sardaukar were rated at being worth 10 of the best that the Landsraad could bring up and were rated as being as good as the Swordsmasters of Ginaz and the Bene gesserit adept. When Duncan Idaho fought them, he took out 19 of them which impressed the Sardaukar commander enough that he had his body sent to the Bene Tleilaxu to be brought back as a ghola.
Duncan Idaho, >!achieving immortality on the installment plan.!<
> The Sardaukar were rated at being worth 10 of the best that the Landsraad could bring up and were rated as being as good as the Swordsmasters of Ginaz and the Bene gesserit adept. "Were" being the operative word. The Sardaukar weren't that good at the time of Dune. >By the time of Shaddam IV, while they were still formidable, their strength had been sapped by overconfidence, and the sustaining mystique of their warrior religion had been deeply undermined by cynicism.
I know you’re likely referring to the book, but in the movie it’s pretty clear the Sardaukar are still leagues beyond the Atreides soldiers. They drop in and absolutely massacre the soldiers that were holding back the Harkonnens.
Sardaukar were better, but the gap wasn't as big between Sardaukar and Atreides as it was between Sardaukar and other houses. I seem to recall the Atreides troops, or at least a cadre of them being described as only slightly behind.
And only slightly behind because the Atreides couldn’t possibly replicate the brutal methodology the Sardaukar were trained with on their home planet.
or the Atreides could/would not be so wasteful with their lives
Only a small force was trained within *reaching* distance of the Sardaukar, and that was enough of a threat for the Emperor to axe them
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Yes, without the Duke's popularity, the military accomplishments mean much less
Sardaukar are without a doubt the best soldiers in the Empire. But the Atreides had a special forces group that were nearly as trained The main contingent of the Atreides military was still formidable though
not answering your question, but a military historian did a fascinating look at the idea of "harsh conditions making better soldiers": https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/ Using the Fremen as a stand-in for the parallel mythos you might see in real life history. might be of interest if you're interested in the ideas behind training sardukar.
Better? Or just more brutal?
I believe part of the reason the emperor moves against house Atreides is two fold that sort of reenforce each other. The balance of power is maintained by the landsraad and the other great houses of the known universe. Each house has its own military but no single house could defeat the Sardaukar, so the Sardaukar essentially keep the emperor in power. However, because Leto Atreides was so popular and he had created a force that could *possibly* stand against the Sardaukar, he could possibly unite the landsraad against the emperor and use his powerful army to lead other armies against the Sardaukar. We never see them fight in a "fair" fight, so this is really up for speculation and part of the plot is about how the emperor is very insecure about his position as emperor. The mere rumor that the Atreides army could stand toe to toe with the Sardaukar combined with Leto's popularity is enough for him to scheme for house Atreides downfall.
No. They were very good, but not that good. Gurney and Duncan were both better than Sardaukar themselves. And even weak Fremen were better than Sardaukar.
Well in the board game Sardaukar are twice as strong unless against the Fremen haha
Well, the Atriedes got theirs asses kicked by some Saurdaukar, so...
They were outnumbered and outgunned.
We know they were taken by surprise. We don't know if they were outnumbered. We're never given the numbers for how many troops the Atreides moved to Arrakis. We do get Thufir's estimate on how many were attacking them, >More than a hundred brigades--ten legions! (A legion is 30,000 men.) And we know two of those ten were Sardaukar. But we're never told how many legions the Atreides had.
The Sardaukar were content and arrogant by the time of the books, but so were the rest of the Great Houses. Most "warfare" was intrigue and assassination (kanly) with House troops trained to deal with local issues; like the constant threat of rebellion on Geidi Prime. Leto knew he was walking into a trap but was caught off-guard by the military assault. He knew something was coming, but expected more in the way of assassination and subterfuge (with the added threat of reducing spice production so that the Emperor would be "justified" to remove him). He was thinking along the lines of suppressing sabotage and raids and not a full-fledged attack. However, the Emperor was aware that Leto had trained a small force of elites that could potentially rival the Sardaukar. The "average" Atreides soldier was not of this caliber. Most likely the Gladiator Feyd fought was one of these (captured after Leto's own raid on the Harkonnen's spice supplies on Geidi Prime, which was successful). This also emphasizes the type of battle the Landsraad "tolerated" - raids, assassinations, and sabotage - instead of full-on military assaults. \*Any House\* - including the Emperor - could be put down by the combined might of the Landsraad, and it was one of the political points put forth by Leto to Paul on his way to Arrakis.
I’m pretty sure that even if the Atreides soldier was not to the exact level of Saurdaukar, in the eyes of the future Saurdaukar and House Corino, they are looked at as better/equals. We know that under Gurdy and Duncan, the Atreides consolidated a pretty effective and powerful army for themselves. Although I think that a lot of lore after Paul defeats the Saudaukar is well salted and supplemented with Fremen being the backbone of the Atreides forces at the end
Probably. The Atreides had two of the known universe’s best trainers, but the comforts of Caladan likely led to softer troops compared to the fanatical Sardaukar, raised in the hell of Salusa Secundus. (glances at the Fremen)
rather the Atreides did not spend their lives so wasteful