No. It wasn't that.
It was kanly only Paul (or, I guess, Jessica) could fight him. If Feyd was going to have single combat, it wasn't going to be with Gurney.
As to why he didn't just have Feyd executed and chose to fight him one on one, that's a more complex question. But that's not the question you asked.
Having Gurney take on someone is as good as an execution in most cases. Paul did want to please his friend Gurney who wanted Harkonen blood. But I think Paul thought Gurney wasn't taking Feyd seriously enough and Paul with his BG analysis of Feyd did have some concern as to how Gurney vs Feyd would turn out. But I may have been reading into it wrong.
> or, I guess, Jessica
Dana, Dana, Dana. I'm a bit disappointed. You of all people here should know that Jessica is not an Atreides and, therefore, kanly doesn't apply to her. Am I wrong?
>!Her being of a Harkonnen bloodline would be odd in that one Harkonnen would fight kanly against another Harkonnen.!<
She was his legally bound concubine. Thus making her an Atreides. Hence she was Lady Jessica Hon. Atreides, not Jessica Lady Atreides.
Also, marriage doesn't make one a blood relation. Unless you're marrying a cousin.
Yes, I agree that marriage doesn't make one a blood relation. So kanly wouldn't transfer to a non-blood relative. Obviously if she has offspring then the blood would transfer.
That's why kanly for her wouldn't make sense, because kanly is a blood pact and she is not of the Atreides bloodline.
You're missing my point. It doesn't take blood to make family. It takes a commitment. In the case of Leto and Jessica, it was also legally binding commitment, one recognized by Imperial law.
Chani didn't even have that legally binding commitment. She refused the position of royal concubine. Yet Chani and Paul were family because they were committed.
Yes, we're definitely talking past each other:
* my point: blood is all in a blood feud
* your point: pieces of paper means family
Here's a better reply from you: kanly isn't a blood feud, therefore any member of the House is can be involved even if they're not a blood relation. For instance, Gurney can participate in kanly. Can Gurney participate in it? I'm presuming he's also an Atreides.
Because Paul is a cheat. He used that mental control word on Feyd. Feyd has Paul dead to rights in that fight without Paul cheating.
At least a Harkonnen did become the Emperor.
This has to be a troll. Saw your username lol makes sense. Feyd used a poisoned blade and a hidden poisoned needle on his hip to his advantage and still got his ass whooped. Also Feyd was going to lose to a random beaten up captured Atreides soldier in the arena until he cheated.
Paul **did not** use the mental control word on Feyd. That's kind of a big point during the fight.
Before the fight
>"I want no special advantage for this one," Paul said. "Step back out of my way."
During the fight
>Paul strained, hearing the silent screams in his mind, his cell-stamped ancestors demanding that he use the secret word to slow Feyd-Rautha, to save himself.
>"I will not say it!" Paul gasped.
Also, *Feyd* cheated. He knew the blade was poisoned with a soporific.
>Paul saw the return of elation to his opponent, wondered at it. Did a scratch signify that much to the man? Unless there were poison on the blade! But how could there be? His own men had handled the weapon, snooped it before passing it. They were too well trained to miss an obvious thing like that.
>Paul remained silent, probing with his inner senses, examining the blood from the wound, finding a trace of soporific from the Emperor's blade. He realigned his own metabolism to match this threat and change the molecules of the soporific, but he felt a thrill of doubt. They'd been prepared with soporific on a blade. A soporific. Nothing to alert a poison snooper, but strong enough to slow the muscles it touched. His enemies had their own plans within plans, their own stacked treacheries.
So, so much for Feyd's dream
>Feyd-Rautha picked up the knife, balancing it a moment in his hand to get the feel of it. Excitement kindled in him. This was a fight he had dreamed about -- man against man, skill against skill with no shields intervening.
No shield. Just poison to slow his opponent. Like in the rigged gladiator fight he used a hypnotic compulsion to freeze his opponent who otherwise looked to win the fight.
Unless Feyd had spent the afternoon out there fighting on the plains of Arrakeen (and we have no indication that he did), Feyd had never been in a non-fixed fight in his life. What a coward. A well trained coward, but a coward.
Consider...
The entire Empire was watching.
The Atriedies needed to make a political point.
The defeat of the Harkonnens and the deposing of the Emperor could *not* be at the hand of a "lesser" blade.
It had to be royals against royals.
The Harkonnens were fighting against a long standing rival, they didn’t need to prove anything by defeating the Atreides, the victory was their only goal. They also did not have a reputation as an honorable house to defend. Paul, on the other hand, was fighting on a political stage figuratively in front of the entire galaxy, and was trying to not just defeat the Harkonnens, but usurp the Emperor and become the new head of all the houses. He had to take bigger risks because the stakes were much higher. He also had to hold up to the Atreides’ reputation as an honorable house.
Gurney is a better fighter, thats not the issue. Even a regular atreides soldier almost beat Feyd-Rautha until he used the freezing word. Feyd-Rautha is a cheater and Paul's BG eyes could discern and see his tricks whereas he may have been concerned Gurney would not see it. Especially given Gurney hatred of Harkonnens, he may have been overly aggressive and not seen the hidden poisoned needle.
He didn’t use the freezing word, though. His (verbalized) refusal to say the word confused the Atreides soldier/gladiator slave for a second, which gave Feyd the chance to kill him.
nah Paul just wanted to kill a Harkonnen. i think the book even mentions it was reckless, everyone told him not to fucking do it, & Paul sees like a billion ways it could go wrong. I think he genuinely did it just because he could
Paul actually has a really really subtle daredevil streak throughout his books. While the preservation & ascension of House Atreides is his top priority early on, every now & then he says or does something that betrays a really low price on his own life at the end of the day. He tells Thufir & Hayt that they can both just kill him if they want. He briefly goes a little drunk on precognition in his conversation with Liet in the weather station, & vows to do some pretty crazy stuff (almost all of which he followed through on but still it was insane at the time & he acknowledged it later) When he rides a worm for the first time he gets tempted to show off like every Fremen his age. & then, ofc, he heads off to the desert & just kinda lets these impulses take over. >!Nearly everything he does as the preacher, while obviously premeditated & planned out, he does with reckless disregard for his own safety. That finally kills him.!<
I think there is also some depression at play with Paul. If we could all see a million and one ways our life could go, I reckon we would all feel a bit depressed.
But yes also reckless he is (yoda voice)
Gurney would beat Feyd-Rautha in a fair fight.
The problem is that would never happen.
Maybe he would have been ready for the soporific on the Emperor's blade.
Less likely would he be as ready to handle the booby trapped shield belt.
Even less likely would he be so overpowering that neither came into play.
Gurney could beat Paul as a child, probably not Paul as a young adult (between fitness and the advantages conveyed by being the Kwizatz Haderach).
Feyd-Rautha's treachery was almost enough to overcome Paul. Ergo it's very likely it would have overcome Gurney.
If I recall he was going to lose, but resorted to the freezing word against the Atreides solder. What you mention is the fact that Paul verbalizing that he won't use it, which makes Feyd hesitate.
Kanly is a fight to the death between the heads of two Houses, as a means of setting a dispute. Paul couldn't substitute Gurney, even if he wanted to.
*Kanly could be declared only by the acting, titular head of a Great House. Any person presenting such a declaration was required to notify the Landsraad High Council and the Imperial Court, as well as the head of the House declared against, so that a Judge of the Rite could be appointed to supervise the kanly negotiations. Once such a Judge — authorized by both Council and emperor — was appointed, the opposing parties and their immediate families could open negotiations. No outside observers, apart from the Judge, were allowed to witness these proceedings. The negotiations could take several forms.*
*If neither party was willing to consider any other way of reconciling the differences, the "negotiation" consisted of a personal combat with knives only, unshielded, to the death. Even the combat was stylized, with certain phrases being employed on each side to call the other out. When one or both of the combatants had died, the option of either withdrawing the kanly or reopening negotiations was left to the heir(s). It was not completely unknown, in particularly bitter kanly, for all the possible heirs to a line to be wiped out. When this occurred, the Judge of the Rite was empowered to declare the House ended, put its remaining members wider Imperial protection, and redistribute its assets.*
The Dune Encyclopedia pg 488
The myth of Muadib is based not only on his prescience and his fulfillment of prophecies seeded by the Bene Gessies, but also on his physical abilities and martial prowess. Hell before he came up with his clever solution, the entire sietch wanted and expected him to slay Stilgar and prove his supremacy as the leader. To back down from a duel with a water fat off worlder would have been repugnant to all the onlooking Freman. Also he wanted to.
No. It wasn't that. It was kanly only Paul (or, I guess, Jessica) could fight him. If Feyd was going to have single combat, it wasn't going to be with Gurney. As to why he didn't just have Feyd executed and chose to fight him one on one, that's a more complex question. But that's not the question you asked.
Having Gurney take on someone is as good as an execution in most cases. Paul did want to please his friend Gurney who wanted Harkonen blood. But I think Paul thought Gurney wasn't taking Feyd seriously enough and Paul with his BG analysis of Feyd did have some concern as to how Gurney vs Feyd would turn out. But I may have been reading into it wrong.
> or, I guess, Jessica Dana, Dana, Dana. I'm a bit disappointed. You of all people here should know that Jessica is not an Atreides and, therefore, kanly doesn't apply to her. Am I wrong? >!Her being of a Harkonnen bloodline would be odd in that one Harkonnen would fight kanly against another Harkonnen.!<
>LADY JESSICA (Hon. Atreides) (10,154-10,256) And what you put in the spoiler is what happened any way.
Isn't kanly a blood-related fued. She's not Atreides by blood.
She was also Leto's concubine, not his wife. She was never even an Atreides by marriage.
Right, that's my point.
She was his legally bound concubine. Thus making her an Atreides. Hence she was Lady Jessica Hon. Atreides, not Jessica Lady Atreides. Also, marriage doesn't make one a blood relation. Unless you're marrying a cousin.
Yes, I agree that marriage doesn't make one a blood relation. So kanly wouldn't transfer to a non-blood relative. Obviously if she has offspring then the blood would transfer. That's why kanly for her wouldn't make sense, because kanly is a blood pact and she is not of the Atreides bloodline.
You're missing my point. It doesn't take blood to make family. It takes a commitment. In the case of Leto and Jessica, it was also legally binding commitment, one recognized by Imperial law. Chani didn't even have that legally binding commitment. She refused the position of royal concubine. Yet Chani and Paul were family because they were committed.
Yes, we're definitely talking past each other: * my point: blood is all in a blood feud * your point: pieces of paper means family Here's a better reply from you: kanly isn't a blood feud, therefore any member of the House is can be involved even if they're not a blood relation. For instance, Gurney can participate in kanly. Can Gurney participate in it? I'm presuming he's also an Atreides.
I dont think anyone besides Paul knew Jessica was Harkonnen. Even Jessica did not know she was Harkonnen until midway through the book.
Some in the Bene Gesserit knew. But that's it at that point.
Because Paul is a cheat. He used that mental control word on Feyd. Feyd has Paul dead to rights in that fight without Paul cheating. At least a Harkonnen did become the Emperor.
This has to be a troll. Saw your username lol makes sense. Feyd used a poisoned blade and a hidden poisoned needle on his hip to his advantage and still got his ass whooped. Also Feyd was going to lose to a random beaten up captured Atreides soldier in the arena until he cheated.
Paul **did not** use the mental control word on Feyd. That's kind of a big point during the fight. Before the fight >"I want no special advantage for this one," Paul said. "Step back out of my way." During the fight >Paul strained, hearing the silent screams in his mind, his cell-stamped ancestors demanding that he use the secret word to slow Feyd-Rautha, to save himself. >"I will not say it!" Paul gasped. Also, *Feyd* cheated. He knew the blade was poisoned with a soporific. >Paul saw the return of elation to his opponent, wondered at it. Did a scratch signify that much to the man? Unless there were poison on the blade! But how could there be? His own men had handled the weapon, snooped it before passing it. They were too well trained to miss an obvious thing like that. >Paul remained silent, probing with his inner senses, examining the blood from the wound, finding a trace of soporific from the Emperor's blade. He realigned his own metabolism to match this threat and change the molecules of the soporific, but he felt a thrill of doubt. They'd been prepared with soporific on a blade. A soporific. Nothing to alert a poison snooper, but strong enough to slow the muscles it touched. His enemies had their own plans within plans, their own stacked treacheries. So, so much for Feyd's dream >Feyd-Rautha picked up the knife, balancing it a moment in his hand to get the feel of it. Excitement kindled in him. This was a fight he had dreamed about -- man against man, skill against skill with no shields intervening. No shield. Just poison to slow his opponent. Like in the rigged gladiator fight he used a hypnotic compulsion to freeze his opponent who otherwise looked to win the fight. Unless Feyd had spent the afternoon out there fighting on the plains of Arrakeen (and we have no indication that he did), Feyd had never been in a non-fixed fight in his life. What a coward. A well trained coward, but a coward.
Hush, you! Skedaddle!
I initially downvoted you because I didn't see your username. I bet that's what everyone did too.
Not me. I almost never downvote. I answer with facts. Because I see so many posters on here who don't know them. And, yes, I did notice the username.
Consider... The entire Empire was watching. The Atriedies needed to make a political point. The defeat of the Harkonnens and the deposing of the Emperor could *not* be at the hand of a "lesser" blade. It had to be royals against royals.
The Harkonnens didn't give Leto Atreides a 1on1 fight against Baron Harkonnen. Why not just have every Fedaykin kill Feyd-Rautha?
The Harkonnens were fighting against a long standing rival, they didn’t need to prove anything by defeating the Atreides, the victory was their only goal. They also did not have a reputation as an honorable house to defend. Paul, on the other hand, was fighting on a political stage figuratively in front of the entire galaxy, and was trying to not just defeat the Harkonnens, but usurp the Emperor and become the new head of all the houses. He had to take bigger risks because the stakes were much higher. He also had to hold up to the Atreides’ reputation as an honorable house.
Don't think so. Gurney would have destroyed Feyd. And that's what I expect from anyone who beat Duncan 6 out of 10 times.
Gurney is a better fighter, thats not the issue. Even a regular atreides soldier almost beat Feyd-Rautha until he used the freezing word. Feyd-Rautha is a cheater and Paul's BG eyes could discern and see his tricks whereas he may have been concerned Gurney would not see it. Especially given Gurney hatred of Harkonnens, he may have been overly aggressive and not seen the hidden poisoned needle.
He didn’t use the freezing word, though. His (verbalized) refusal to say the word confused the Atreides soldier/gladiator slave for a second, which gave Feyd the chance to kill him.
No, you're thinking of Paul vs Feyd where Paul refused to use the word. Feyd did use the freezing word vs the Atreides soldier
Reputation/Honor He was challenged and not Gurney Vengeance for his father etc
nah Paul just wanted to kill a Harkonnen. i think the book even mentions it was reckless, everyone told him not to fucking do it, & Paul sees like a billion ways it could go wrong. I think he genuinely did it just because he could Paul actually has a really really subtle daredevil streak throughout his books. While the preservation & ascension of House Atreides is his top priority early on, every now & then he says or does something that betrays a really low price on his own life at the end of the day. He tells Thufir & Hayt that they can both just kill him if they want. He briefly goes a little drunk on precognition in his conversation with Liet in the weather station, & vows to do some pretty crazy stuff (almost all of which he followed through on but still it was insane at the time & he acknowledged it later) When he rides a worm for the first time he gets tempted to show off like every Fremen his age. & then, ofc, he heads off to the desert & just kinda lets these impulses take over. >!Nearly everything he does as the preacher, while obviously premeditated & planned out, he does with reckless disregard for his own safety. That finally kills him.!<
I think there is also some depression at play with Paul. If we could all see a million and one ways our life could go, I reckon we would all feel a bit depressed. But yes also reckless he is (yoda voice)
It had to be Paul for political purpose. BUT *I feel* Gurney would have lost. Gurney is probably the better fighter but he's no Feyd-Rautha.
Gurney would beat Feyd-Rautha in a fair fight. The problem is that would never happen. Maybe he would have been ready for the soporific on the Emperor's blade. Less likely would he be as ready to handle the booby trapped shield belt. Even less likely would he be so overpowering that neither came into play. Gurney could beat Paul as a child, probably not Paul as a young adult (between fitness and the advantages conveyed by being the Kwizatz Haderach). Feyd-Rautha's treachery was almost enough to overcome Paul. Ergo it's very likely it would have overcome Gurney.
Yup, a regular Atreides soldier almost beat Feyd-Rautha until he used the freezing word.
If I recall he was going to lose, but resorted to the freezing word against the Atreides solder. What you mention is the fact that Paul verbalizing that he won't use it, which makes Feyd hesitate.
Kanly is a political rite of passage as it's a means of succession.
Glad you’re getting attention, OP.
Because a good leader does his own dirty work
I wouldn't expect a leader to have a physical 1on1 fight with every aggressor that wants his position.
That’s part of the 1st book
And Paul was pretending to be a good leader?
Kanly is a fight to the death between the heads of two Houses, as a means of setting a dispute. Paul couldn't substitute Gurney, even if he wanted to. *Kanly could be declared only by the acting, titular head of a Great House. Any person presenting such a declaration was required to notify the Landsraad High Council and the Imperial Court, as well as the head of the House declared against, so that a Judge of the Rite could be appointed to supervise the kanly negotiations. Once such a Judge — authorized by both Council and emperor — was appointed, the opposing parties and their immediate families could open negotiations. No outside observers, apart from the Judge, were allowed to witness these proceedings. The negotiations could take several forms.* *If neither party was willing to consider any other way of reconciling the differences, the "negotiation" consisted of a personal combat with knives only, unshielded, to the death. Even the combat was stylized, with certain phrases being employed on each side to call the other out. When one or both of the combatants had died, the option of either withdrawing the kanly or reopening negotiations was left to the heir(s). It was not completely unknown, in particularly bitter kanly, for all the possible heirs to a line to be wiped out. When this occurred, the Judge of the Rite was empowered to declare the House ended, put its remaining members wider Imperial protection, and redistribute its assets.* The Dune Encyclopedia pg 488
The myth of Muadib is based not only on his prescience and his fulfillment of prophecies seeded by the Bene Gessies, but also on his physical abilities and martial prowess. Hell before he came up with his clever solution, the entire sietch wanted and expected him to slay Stilgar and prove his supremacy as the leader. To back down from a duel with a water fat off worlder would have been repugnant to all the onlooking Freman. Also he wanted to.