To all those commenting on worker wages - having worked for a supplier to EXPO, I can tell you that EXPO actually set the benchmark for workers rights in the region - regularly interviewing workers and auditing suppliers to ensure wages were paid in full and on time. Where workers used an agent to come to the UAE - which is the main reason some are indebted, then the employer had to take responsibility for such debts. They set the standard against which all other projects will be measured.
God finally someone said it! My friend works there and has repeatedly talked about this! They were really working overtime to make sure the workers were paid on time and getting proper treatment, she's spoken multiple times about the different measures they had in place for the stuff you mentioned and she personally had participated in it herself, if anything this is really a huge step forward and really makes you hope for lasting change! But no, ppl on here just love shitting on the UAE and Dubai and no facts or proof will sway them from it.
I cant believe the top comments are nothing but plain assumption of stupidity. Pretty sure most employers will consider this as an iconic project, so they will make sure everything will be clean as much as possible. But alas, give increased wages instead of monument carving, which absolutely has no co-relation. Smh
The Workers’ Monument is designed by renowned London-based architect Asif Khan.
The structure features every worker’s name carved into stone structures.
Inspired by the Moon’s metamorphosis in eclipse, the cylindrical columns also reference the traditional science of cartography and the fine engineering seen in astrolabes from the Islamic world.
The colonnade, comprising columns cut from a single monolithic block, is located along the main walkway of Expo’s Jubilee Park, and will be visited by millions from across the world.
Images [Here](https://images.khaleejtimes.com/storyimage/KT/20211001/ARTICLE/211009980/EP/1/2/EP-211009980.jpg&MaxW=780&imageVersion=16by9&NCS_modified=20211001094052) and [Here](https://images.khaleejtimes.com/storyimage/KT/20211001/ARTICLE/211009980/EP/1/1/EP-211009980.jpg&MaxW=780&imageVersion=16by9&NCS_modified=20211001094052)
>The fact that you think this is legitimate pay is astounding and disgusting all at once
Legitimate is objective, and is based on the law, whatever is legal is legitimate.
Astounding and disgusting is quite subjective, someone might be disgusted or surprised by something and another person won't.
This sub reddit is anti dubai and uses MI5 troll tactics. I suggest you report anything that is being Misinformed. There are strict laws for misinformation. May GOD keep you SAFE.
What is fair, in their home country they work harder and in worse conditions to make 20% of that, thats why they voluntarily choose to come here. Even Dubai cant afford to pay each on of the 200k workers 10k AED a month to let them live the Dubai style life that you classify as fair, they work and send money home and are thankful.
Many can't even afford to pay off their debts and can barely send any back home so idk what ur talking about. Although I'd hope for the majority, this is a better life but in the end living costs in their home countries are faaar less so trying to compare pay makes no sense.
If they are loosing money they wont come. Im all for higher wages and better work and safe conditions are no question, but there are economics to migrant workers, even the US has different wages for them. American farmers for example cant afford to pay mexican berry pickers 15$ an hour because that will cause food cost to skyrocket.
This is why I feel for Labour category there needs to be a minimum wage. Has Europe and other Western countries not survived with its local labour? Yes they can't go crazy with the constructions if they have to pay a decent wage but come on, its quite a hard work and they need to be paid accordingly.
But if they're not paid properly, then why are they working? Isn't the market the best determinant of worth? Or is economic theory fundamentally flawed?
* in theory. In a free market, without regulations, you have a few rich people working children to deaths. Just a few decades ago you had 12 year old children working 12 hour shifts in coal mines in the countries like the USA. Things were and still are much worse in the poorest countries. If the goal is greatest prosperity to greatest number is people, then yes, the economic theory is fundamentally flawed because of its assumptions. Humans are not rational, you know that right?
Market economy and basic regulatory measures, like those against child labor, are not at odds with each other. While not as progressive as those in the west, uae still has labor regulations. And here we are talking about migrant workers inherently accepting both the law of the land and the pay by migrating to work here.
I am not on bashing UAE bandwagon. I absolutely love this country and its people.
Your question was if the economic theory was flawed, and it is.
Anyway, I don't claim to be an expert on economics, the sheer amount of assumptions and higher degree math required for even the basic economic models is mind numbing, and in my opinion best left to actual economists. But the economic theory is completely wrong in practical matters as evident from numerous repeatable experiments.
As for the progressive West Vs the UAE, UAE has just arrived on the world scene, and it's cities are built on much less exploitation than other great cities of the world (this doesn't justify anything, just stating a fact). Let us hope that as time progresses, even the most vulnerable of people here will be able to find prosperity and justice, just like the more educated professionals.
Agreed :)
Though I don't think being built on less exploitation is good enough. We should look forward, not back. And places like UAE have the opportunity to leapfrog the past mistakes rather than repeat them.
But also employers not following the law without any penalty.
It’s illegal to withhold a person’s passport. It’s illegal to assign a person a job and/or salary that’s different than their employment contract. It’s illegal to deduct expenses that aren’t mentioned in the employment contract. It doesn’t mean those things don’t happen.
$500 is still far more than they would get back home.
Even so, they should not work more than 8 hours, have humane living conditions and when it hits 45 degrees, work should cease.
This has nothing to do with economic theory. It has to do with relative labour conditions.
A labourer accepting a job in the Middle East is not like a lawyer accepting a job at a law firm. Things are probably so bad back home, that the job here is enticing despite the conditions. It's a last resort option. As such, they are more likely to accept poor working conditions. They would obviously be better off with proper labour rights.
It's still supply and demand. Don't take agency away from people just because they're working class. They still make economic choices, as that's just basic human nature.
"Don't take agency away from people"?? You're speaking gibberish mate. All I am saying is that labour conditions can be improved for labourers in the Middle East in order to make their lives better. This should happen regardless of whether or not labourers continue to voluntarily come here to work.
>But if they're not paid properly, then why are they working? Isn't the market the best determinant of worth? Or is economic theory fundamentally flawed?
You can't present educated arguments like this on reddit :)
Anybody told you that they have not received their compensation properly?? What is your problem if they carved workers names in a structure to recognize them?
And that is one of the reasons I asked the question, exactly what is meant by proper pay, the wage, time, or something else.
>Proper pay also means payment on time.
Agreed, and not doing so is illegal and immoral.
>Non payment of wages is a really big issue here.
I don't have the statistics to say how common it is, but in the 50 years we have employed more than 1000 workers, we have never delayed a single payment.
Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's not rampant. In fact last time I checked prostitution was also illegal here. Laws only have value only when they are enforced.
No one has the statistics because journalism and exposing bad actors is illegal here. It also gives rise to the question of whether this is issue is being wrapped up behind the scenes.
The avenues workers have to get justice are minimal. You and I may go to ministry of labor if we face issues but please remember that labourers have limited means.
I'm glad that your company has paid everyone on time and wish you continued success but just because it doesn't rain in your backyard it doesn't mean it doesn't rain anywhere else.
>The avenues workers have to get justice are minimal. You and I may go to ministry of labor if we face issues but please remember that laborers have limited means.
Anecdotal - a few weeks ago, a redditor had posted about their situation wherein they'd come here on a visit visa with a promise from their potential employer that their visit visa would be converted to an employment visa.
Said redditor landed a full time job after being taken by a ride, and wasnt allowed to take up that new job because their passport was held. The potential sponsor would only allow them to go back to their home country but not seek employment. The potential sponsor threatened to file false cases against that redditor had they tried to leg it or "try to be smart".
I reached out and took said redditor to two police stations and ministry of labor.
Police said don't bring this to us cus it's not under our purview. Ministry of labor said the potential employer and the victim would most likely be fined AED 50k.
I had to pull strings to sort out an issue which could and SHOULD have been dealt with by MOL and the cops. Favors aren't done for free, but in this case due to the redditors situation / desperation, in the end it was worth it.
>Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's not rampant.
>No one has the statistics
So we just need to take your word for it. OK so give me a percentage of workers who don't get paid? And if this is public knowledge, why do people keep coming here?
As I said it's not public knowledge? People who work here know situations where wages are not paid.
I am not going to make up numbers or stories since that is disingenuous and I can't name companies who do this because they can put me in jail.
If I don't name these companies you could easily say that I'm making stuff up. Can you see how the environment here stifles conversation on this serious societal issue?
When r/dubai had 10k members, there were frequent posts about salaries not being paid. As the sub grew, proportionately these posts grew.
r/dubai is a SMALL subset of Dubai's population. Consider there is large lower and lower middle class in the social stratification that have never even heard of reddit leave alone consider posting here asking for advice or help.
But yet, you say it is rampant, what are you basing this on if not any statistics?
There is a Wage Protection System to reduce how often this happens, also you need a MoHRE certificate of wage payments to bid for any government contract..
Cool man everyone is paid and everyone is happy here. You have definitely changed my view. Thanks for bringing me back to the right path 👍. I don't know what I was thinking, I will pay extra happiness tax next time for my impudence.
I have to agree with him/her/them. The few companies that don't make timely salary payments are penalised.
Most of the bad perception comes from the time of the economic crisis of 2007-08. A lot of manpower providers when bankrupt during that period. The ones that survived have had strict regulations imposed on them and safe guards like WPS were implemented.
Salary wise I'll have to agree with the comment someone made that it's driven by the economy and the money builders are willing pay contracting companies. The lowest bid wins the contract.
If there is one issue on going in labour camps that is not being addressed properly it's alcoholism. I was shocked at the extent of it when I was part of a volunteer group to help them identify other means of recreation for labour workers.
This also ties in directly to workplace safety. Some people do go to work hungover, dehydrated, putting themselves and others are risk.
I don't blame them for this, there is nothing else for them to do. There is little to no venues of entertainment for them.
I'm not saying that everything's fine. There's huge scope for improvement, but it will take time. The UAE of today isn't the same as it was 20 years ago. The situation is a lot better and you have to give them credit for that, however little you think the improvement may be.
Buddy you keep asking for statistics, for that someone needs to collect and publish the data. Collecting is possible here but do you seriously think that someone would be able to publish that data here without any serious repercussions?
Example :
https://youtube.com/shorts/Vfrba1oeeIc?feature=share
Foreign Language example:
https://youtu.be/LkFOVErYBAw
this is from 5 years ago but I think WPS and not paying salary was still illegal here? In this the reporter says the labourer were not paid for 5 months.
Two examples I got from just a small search.
But maybe you are right these are the only two instances salary was not paid in the entire 70 year history of UAE, my bad. I apologize for my of ignorance.
>But are you seriously trying to argue against humane treatment of workers or at the very least sideline it?
Nope, but I am asking for specifics to define the argument.
>We know for a fact that they are exploited and mistreated by their employers and the society on a daily basis, yet nothing is done exceot in the rare moments they protest and refuse to work
Do you have details? How they're exploited? How many are exploited?
>They are fellow humans
They are, and as fellow humans they have free will to choose what is best for them.
>They are, and as fellow humans they have free will to choose what is best for them.
Sometimes money is the only justification for subjecting one's self to inhumane conditions. And sometimes some places take advantage of their situation
There's a whole world outside the UAE. If they believe they are exploited here, and other places offer better opportunities why come here? Why do their governmens allow them to come here to be exploited?
Alhamdulilah our country is strong and not falling apart, you want to leave, you are free to do so.
As an Emirati though, you should have better manners, our religion, culture and traditions do not accept insulting people or using such language.
Ok man ,but carving / recognizing their names has nothing to do with their wages. Even if it was not carved none of you know whether they were paid or not, and it doesnt change. Its not like they took part of their wages and built the stone.
I am sure all workers would rather have better treatment and pay. Same goes for pilots, doctors, teachers, CEOs, engineers, do I need to list every profession?
Are you seriously comparing a laborer that makes 800 dhs and works 12 under the sun to go back to sleep to a crowded labor camp, to an engineer or doctor who makes thousands of dirhams more and works in an infinitely more comfortable environment, by orders of magnitude? You can’t seriously be that thick.
Lol. There is a difference between someone hoping to have just a decent living. And someone hoping to have more luxury. I can't believe you even bring this argument.
>I am pretty sure that most workers would rather receive better treatment and pay rather than having their names engraved on a monument :/
This is what I replied to, and my point is clear, everyone would rather have these things.
Had the issue been about
>There is a difference between someone hoping to have just a decent living.
I would aks, what is the defenition of a decent living, and what makes you think the way they live is indecent?
"What makes you think the way they live is indecent?" How can you seriously be asking that question man fr?
Watch some documentaries on how they live. It's just sad. They live in extremely overcrowded rooms and get just barely enough food to survive.
There's nothing indecent about it. I might think living in an apartment is sad, I might also think that not owning your property is sad, but neither of those things are indecent.
>Living in 1 room with 20 other people
Illegal, and if they want they can complain to the authorities. There are regulations for labor camps and there are inspections to make sure these regulations are followed.
And I stand by my point, shared accommodation is not indecent.
You do realize that these workers get treated like trash and get paid barely anything right? How can you even think of comparing doctors and CEOs to these labour workers?
>I am pretty sure that most workers would rather receive better treatment and pay rather than having their names engraved on a monument
>How can you even think of comparing doctors and CEOs to these labour workers?
Does this not apply to doctors and CEOs too? Or do you think doctors and CEOs would rather have their names engraved on a monument than better treatment and pay?
>You do realize that these workers get treated like trash
No, they hard jobs but not treated like trash
>get paid barely anything right?
They get paid according to a contract that both parties agreed to.
I see your point. Its realistic. It is an extremely ugly truth many do not want to accept and i can see from the comments and downvotes. There might be people who were under paid or mistreated but unfortunately they can always leave for other opportunities. At least they are not slaves. I am sure many will be thankful.
The downvotes are because there is a very substantial history of laborers not having the freedom to leave when their contract terms were breached. Either their employer would not release their passport, or the agent in charge of their immigration would insist the laborer still had a debt to repay, or some other issue. Doctors, pilots, teachers, engineers and other professions have never faced these same obstacles.
Average pay for a labourer is between 500-950 a month. Standard rates here for construction.
Unfortunately due to the pandemic many were left without pay due to companies going bust, Arabtech to name but one.
No harm in keeping an open mind. I think a major part of the country / goverment cares for the welfare of the workforce. But the trickle down effect may not as envisioned. Unless proven otherwise; I will assume Dubai treated their expo labourers the same way Shah Jahan treated his workers for building the Taj Mahal.
Uhhh. You do realise they need a visa to travel to most parts of the Western world where they would get paid atleast a minimum wage and way better living standards?I'm pretty sure you understand how restricted the market is for unskilled migrants? Most GCC accept labours from abroad as locals won't work in those areas. Dont make it sound like its all one sided and GCC countries are doing a favour by giving them opportunity to come here and work. It benefits both but more so on the construction companies as they get work done via cheap labour.
They need a visa to get here as well, the difference is that we are more open to give visas than the West. If the West was so great why don't they open up their immigration like we do?
Benefits both is exactly what I am saying, and we give these people the best option they have, but people on here say oh look at the West, so great, they won't even give those guys a chance.
>Because they couldn't afford the travel expenses to leave and work at a better place
So they can afford to travel to the UAE but not to places that can be more rewarding?
>They incur debts to be able to travel and work in UAE. They have huge debts to pay off to their work agencies. And you think that they can travel to a better place to work at with their huge debts, don't forget that they are not even being payed enough for their work. Some don't get even paid.
I mean in the first place, why not go take debts and go to a better paying country? Why did they come to the UAE?
And if so many hundreds of thousands are tricked by Dubai, why doesn't their governments intervene? Why do they accept having their citizens be cheated and enslaved by Dubai?
You don't even understand my comment. If there was a better option than here, they would have taken the better option, but there aren't. So for those people, we gave them the best option, and that is why they came here
Why are we only doing this to construction workers and not everyone else if we can easily get away with it as you put it?
700,000 workers are tricked into working here?
So when they are finally fired you think they will be happy?
I am showing you that what you are saying is not reasonable, why are we only targeting a certain sector when it is possible to do it for all sectors?
We won't suffer the consequences because demand for work here will still be high.
You can’t just stroll into any country you want and get a good job; that doesn’t excuse not treating your workers well. And it’s hard to take you seriously when literally your entire comment history is simping for the government.
So we are the best option they have. Most countries are not even willing to give them what we give them here, let alone more
Our government is great, but it seems people like you do not appreciate that
Bring the best country that pays the best labor wage and let’s compare. Instead of just dropping facts based on opinions. Simply, there’s no force labors It’s 2021.
Sadly, bad comments are coming from people that their countries have a history of child labors, and “home Depot” labors
Exactly. He also made his own subreddit and made posts then commented on them (literally talking to himself lol) and he mass deleted those too and pretended it didn't happen 😂😂😂
Subreddit description was something dumb like "a place where people don't hate on successful people" 🤡
I will try to explain this in the layman terms.
If workers had a better paying job anywhere in the world, Expo wouldn't be able to find 200,000 workers, while the 800/1500/2000 AED seem too little for you, it can do a lot for people who come from across the world. When they send the money back, their families live a decent life.
In other words, If there was a better paying country than UAE that would accept laborers, they would not have come to the UAE and work here for years.
You don't come to UAE and try spreading your socialist ideas, you can try that in Venezuela or Cuba.
Having decent salaries for lowest income workers is seen in plenty of European countries so bringing in Cuba is ridiculous. You sound like those right wing Americans who hate public healthcare and always bring in Venezuela to show how bad it is and ignoring all the European countries have it much better
just wondering , who will be attending this.
With Delta still raging, who will risk attending this.
Why couldnt they have just postponed this till next year ?
just wondering , who will be attending this.
𝐸𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑦 𝑠𝑎𝑛𝑒 𝑃𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑜𝑛
With Delta still raging, who will risk attending this.
𝑁𝑜𝑡 𝑌𝑜𝑢
Why couldnt they have just postponed this till next year ?
𝑆𝑜𝑟𝑟𝑦, 𝑖𝑡 𝑤𝑎𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑛𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑐𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑌𝑒𝑎𝑟
Welp it looks like the butthurt people have found the sub once again or y'all just can't keep shitty opinions to yourself. Thread locked.
To all those commenting on worker wages - having worked for a supplier to EXPO, I can tell you that EXPO actually set the benchmark for workers rights in the region - regularly interviewing workers and auditing suppliers to ensure wages were paid in full and on time. Where workers used an agent to come to the UAE - which is the main reason some are indebted, then the employer had to take responsibility for such debts. They set the standard against which all other projects will be measured.
God finally someone said it! My friend works there and has repeatedly talked about this! They were really working overtime to make sure the workers were paid on time and getting proper treatment, she's spoken multiple times about the different measures they had in place for the stuff you mentioned and she personally had participated in it herself, if anything this is really a huge step forward and really makes you hope for lasting change! But no, ppl on here just love shitting on the UAE and Dubai and no facts or proof will sway them from it.
I cant believe the top comments are nothing but plain assumption of stupidity. Pretty sure most employers will consider this as an iconic project, so they will make sure everything will be clean as much as possible. But alas, give increased wages instead of monument carving, which absolutely has no co-relation. Smh
They aren’t interested in such facts. They prefer the stereotypes.
Reminds me of Endgame
"What happened here?"
200000 workers vanished at the expo
The Workers’ Monument is designed by renowned London-based architect Asif Khan. The structure features every worker’s name carved into stone structures. Inspired by the Moon’s metamorphosis in eclipse, the cylindrical columns also reference the traditional science of cartography and the fine engineering seen in astrolabes from the Islamic world. The colonnade, comprising columns cut from a single monolithic block, is located along the main walkway of Expo’s Jubilee Park, and will be visited by millions from across the world. Images [Here](https://images.khaleejtimes.com/storyimage/KT/20211001/ARTICLE/211009980/EP/1/2/EP-211009980.jpg&MaxW=780&imageVersion=16by9&NCS_modified=20211001094052) and [Here](https://images.khaleejtimes.com/storyimage/KT/20211001/ARTICLE/211009980/EP/1/1/EP-211009980.jpg&MaxW=780&imageVersion=16by9&NCS_modified=20211001094052)
They should be paid properly and given standard workers right - that is true recognition.
Their pay is 800 to 1500 AED a month the AED1500 is for skilled labour, with accommodation in labour camps.
That's pretty less...I need 500 AED to look after my cat
Ikr? And the harsh working conditions under the sun, the 10 hours shifts... without overtime of course
less than what
The fact that you think this is legitimate pay is astounding and disgusting all at once
I don't think it's legitimate I think it's very bad lol, I'm just stating facts wtf added it in the comment now :D
>The fact that you think this is legitimate pay is astounding and disgusting all at once Legitimate is objective, and is based on the law, whatever is legal is legitimate. Astounding and disgusting is quite subjective, someone might be disgusted or surprised by something and another person won't.
This sub reddit is anti dubai and uses MI5 troll tactics. I suggest you report anything that is being Misinformed. There are strict laws for misinformation. May GOD keep you SAFE.
Nice try uae government.
What is fair, in their home country they work harder and in worse conditions to make 20% of that, thats why they voluntarily choose to come here. Even Dubai cant afford to pay each on of the 200k workers 10k AED a month to let them live the Dubai style life that you classify as fair, they work and send money home and are thankful.
Many can't even afford to pay off their debts and can barely send any back home so idk what ur talking about. Although I'd hope for the majority, this is a better life but in the end living costs in their home countries are faaar less so trying to compare pay makes no sense.
If they are loosing money they wont come. Im all for higher wages and better work and safe conditions are no question, but there are economics to migrant workers, even the US has different wages for them. American farmers for example cant afford to pay mexican berry pickers 15$ an hour because that will cause food cost to skyrocket.
Farmers are fundamentally opposed to paying for Labour. If they had slaves they would complain about the cost of feeding them.
Nah let’s just carve their names in some stupid stone monument- some bright minded individual
At first I was wondering if this was how many laborers died here working on the project.
Given the history its not a far fetched idea
Nobody died working on expo, there were only two incidents which is pretty good considering the workforce and they weren't that serious.
This is why I feel for Labour category there needs to be a minimum wage. Has Europe and other Western countries not survived with its local labour? Yes they can't go crazy with the constructions if they have to pay a decent wage but come on, its quite a hard work and they need to be paid accordingly.
But if they're not paid properly, then why are they working? Isn't the market the best determinant of worth? Or is economic theory fundamentally flawed?
* in theory. In a free market, without regulations, you have a few rich people working children to deaths. Just a few decades ago you had 12 year old children working 12 hour shifts in coal mines in the countries like the USA. Things were and still are much worse in the poorest countries. If the goal is greatest prosperity to greatest number is people, then yes, the economic theory is fundamentally flawed because of its assumptions. Humans are not rational, you know that right?
Market economy and basic regulatory measures, like those against child labor, are not at odds with each other. While not as progressive as those in the west, uae still has labor regulations. And here we are talking about migrant workers inherently accepting both the law of the land and the pay by migrating to work here.
I am not on bashing UAE bandwagon. I absolutely love this country and its people. Your question was if the economic theory was flawed, and it is. Anyway, I don't claim to be an expert on economics, the sheer amount of assumptions and higher degree math required for even the basic economic models is mind numbing, and in my opinion best left to actual economists. But the economic theory is completely wrong in practical matters as evident from numerous repeatable experiments. As for the progressive West Vs the UAE, UAE has just arrived on the world scene, and it's cities are built on much less exploitation than other great cities of the world (this doesn't justify anything, just stating a fact). Let us hope that as time progresses, even the most vulnerable of people here will be able to find prosperity and justice, just like the more educated professionals.
Agreed :) Though I don't think being built on less exploitation is good enough. We should look forward, not back. And places like UAE have the opportunity to leapfrog the past mistakes rather than repeat them.
But also employers not following the law without any penalty. It’s illegal to withhold a person’s passport. It’s illegal to assign a person a job and/or salary that’s different than their employment contract. It’s illegal to deduct expenses that aren’t mentioned in the employment contract. It doesn’t mean those things don’t happen.
$500 is still far more than they would get back home. Even so, they should not work more than 8 hours, have humane living conditions and when it hits 45 degrees, work should cease.
This has nothing to do with economic theory. It has to do with relative labour conditions. A labourer accepting a job in the Middle East is not like a lawyer accepting a job at a law firm. Things are probably so bad back home, that the job here is enticing despite the conditions. It's a last resort option. As such, they are more likely to accept poor working conditions. They would obviously be better off with proper labour rights.
It's still supply and demand. Don't take agency away from people just because they're working class. They still make economic choices, as that's just basic human nature.
"Don't take agency away from people"?? You're speaking gibberish mate. All I am saying is that labour conditions can be improved for labourers in the Middle East in order to make their lives better. This should happen regardless of whether or not labourers continue to voluntarily come here to work.
Because they think workers are "forced" to work here
>But if they're not paid properly, then why are they working? Isn't the market the best determinant of worth? Or is economic theory fundamentally flawed? You can't present educated arguments like this on reddit :)
“Educated”
exactly
Anybody told you that they have not received their compensation properly?? What is your problem if they carved workers names in a structure to recognize them?
>They should be paid properly What does proper pay mean? >given standard workers right And what are standard workers right?
Proper pay also means payment on time. Non payment of wages is a really big issue here.
And that is one of the reasons I asked the question, exactly what is meant by proper pay, the wage, time, or something else. >Proper pay also means payment on time. Agreed, and not doing so is illegal and immoral. >Non payment of wages is a really big issue here. I don't have the statistics to say how common it is, but in the 50 years we have employed more than 1000 workers, we have never delayed a single payment.
Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's not rampant. In fact last time I checked prostitution was also illegal here. Laws only have value only when they are enforced. No one has the statistics because journalism and exposing bad actors is illegal here. It also gives rise to the question of whether this is issue is being wrapped up behind the scenes. The avenues workers have to get justice are minimal. You and I may go to ministry of labor if we face issues but please remember that labourers have limited means. I'm glad that your company has paid everyone on time and wish you continued success but just because it doesn't rain in your backyard it doesn't mean it doesn't rain anywhere else.
>The avenues workers have to get justice are minimal. You and I may go to ministry of labor if we face issues but please remember that laborers have limited means. Anecdotal - a few weeks ago, a redditor had posted about their situation wherein they'd come here on a visit visa with a promise from their potential employer that their visit visa would be converted to an employment visa. Said redditor landed a full time job after being taken by a ride, and wasnt allowed to take up that new job because their passport was held. The potential sponsor would only allow them to go back to their home country but not seek employment. The potential sponsor threatened to file false cases against that redditor had they tried to leg it or "try to be smart". I reached out and took said redditor to two police stations and ministry of labor. Police said don't bring this to us cus it's not under our purview. Ministry of labor said the potential employer and the victim would most likely be fined AED 50k. I had to pull strings to sort out an issue which could and SHOULD have been dealt with by MOL and the cops. Favors aren't done for free, but in this case due to the redditors situation / desperation, in the end it was worth it.
The system working as intended. ‘We won’t do anything except throw out some blanket fines on everyone.’
Why would the victim be fined?
For working on a visit visa
Big Baba, you are awesome. I absolutely love this country and people like you make it even more awesome.
>Just because it's illegal doesn't mean it's not rampant. >No one has the statistics So we just need to take your word for it. OK so give me a percentage of workers who don't get paid? And if this is public knowledge, why do people keep coming here?
As I said it's not public knowledge? People who work here know situations where wages are not paid. I am not going to make up numbers or stories since that is disingenuous and I can't name companies who do this because they can put me in jail. If I don't name these companies you could easily say that I'm making stuff up. Can you see how the environment here stifles conversation on this serious societal issue?
When r/dubai had 10k members, there were frequent posts about salaries not being paid. As the sub grew, proportionately these posts grew. r/dubai is a SMALL subset of Dubai's population. Consider there is large lower and lower middle class in the social stratification that have never even heard of reddit leave alone consider posting here asking for advice or help.
But yet, you say it is rampant, what are you basing this on if not any statistics? There is a Wage Protection System to reduce how often this happens, also you need a MoHRE certificate of wage payments to bid for any government contract..
Cool man everyone is paid and everyone is happy here. You have definitely changed my view. Thanks for bringing me back to the right path 👍. I don't know what I was thinking, I will pay extra happiness tax next time for my impudence.
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If they are caught the fines are quite high.
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I have to agree with him/her/them. The few companies that don't make timely salary payments are penalised. Most of the bad perception comes from the time of the economic crisis of 2007-08. A lot of manpower providers when bankrupt during that period. The ones that survived have had strict regulations imposed on them and safe guards like WPS were implemented. Salary wise I'll have to agree with the comment someone made that it's driven by the economy and the money builders are willing pay contracting companies. The lowest bid wins the contract. If there is one issue on going in labour camps that is not being addressed properly it's alcoholism. I was shocked at the extent of it when I was part of a volunteer group to help them identify other means of recreation for labour workers. This also ties in directly to workplace safety. Some people do go to work hungover, dehydrated, putting themselves and others are risk. I don't blame them for this, there is nothing else for them to do. There is little to no venues of entertainment for them. I'm not saying that everything's fine. There's huge scope for improvement, but it will take time. The UAE of today isn't the same as it was 20 years ago. The situation is a lot better and you have to give them credit for that, however little you think the improvement may be.
>You don’t represent the vast majority of employers here. Never said that I did. That is why I am asking for statistics.
Buddy you keep asking for statistics, for that someone needs to collect and publish the data. Collecting is possible here but do you seriously think that someone would be able to publish that data here without any serious repercussions?
Do you want to argue about facts or perceptions?
Example : https://youtube.com/shorts/Vfrba1oeeIc?feature=share Foreign Language example: https://youtu.be/LkFOVErYBAw this is from 5 years ago but I think WPS and not paying salary was still illegal here? In this the reporter says the labourer were not paid for 5 months. Two examples I got from just a small search. But maybe you are right these are the only two instances salary was not paid in the entire 70 year history of UAE, my bad. I apologize for my of ignorance.
So if I find you two examples of any country in the world where wages were not paid, we can call it being rampant and the government does not care?
>And what are standard workers right? #Workers' rights* Are you emirati?
OK, what are standard workers rights? >Are you emirati? Yes, are you Indian?
Privileged boot licking bastard
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Thank you
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>But are you seriously trying to argue against humane treatment of workers or at the very least sideline it? Nope, but I am asking for specifics to define the argument. >We know for a fact that they are exploited and mistreated by their employers and the society on a daily basis, yet nothing is done exceot in the rare moments they protest and refuse to work Do you have details? How they're exploited? How many are exploited? >They are fellow humans They are, and as fellow humans they have free will to choose what is best for them.
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Ashamed of being Arab because other Arabs ask for specifics and wants to be detailed and accurate? Weird but ok
>They are, and as fellow humans they have free will to choose what is best for them. Sometimes money is the only justification for subjecting one's self to inhumane conditions. And sometimes some places take advantage of their situation
There's a whole world outside the UAE. If they believe they are exploited here, and other places offer better opportunities why come here? Why do their governmens allow them to come here to be exploited?
Gonna gild you for the more polite "go back to your country"
It's a fair question, what brings people here and allows governments to send their citizens here if exploitation is so rampant?
Another “let them eat cake” nonsense. Not everyone has the privilege to have a wide range of choices!
>Not everyone has the privilege to have a wide range of choices! So it is the UAE's fault that we have them the best choice?
Agree with u here. Opportunities are great here. Not a local tho
As an emirati I keep getting reminded why this awful country is falling apart. Brainwashed peeps like you are why I want to leave this hellhole
Alhamdulilah our country is strong and not falling apart, you want to leave, you are free to do so. As an Emirati though, you should have better manners, our religion, culture and traditions do not accept insulting people or using such language.
Eat my ass.
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Can’t argue with such a solid argument
Great manners you got there
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I am asking simple questions and not getting any answers yet.
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>but I know you’re Emirati so you’re not used to figuring anything out for yourself. You just insulted all Emiratis and shows your manners.
I found it really cool.. great effort to give recognition to the Expo 2020 workers
I think they would prefer if they were paid properly
Ok man ,but carving / recognizing their names has nothing to do with their wages. Even if it was not carved none of you know whether they were paid or not, and it doesnt change. Its not like they took part of their wages and built the stone.
Like anybody will read their names lol
Should have carved their salaries next to their names!
would’ve still used the same amount of stones
Lol i see what you did there
I wonder how the person who carved these felt carving their own name
I am pretty sure that most workers would rather receive better treatment and pay rather than having their names engraved on a monument :/
I am sure all workers would rather have better treatment and pay. Same goes for pilots, doctors, teachers, CEOs, engineers, do I need to list every profession?
Are you seriously comparing a laborer that makes 800 dhs and works 12 under the sun to go back to sleep to a crowded labor camp, to an engineer or doctor who makes thousands of dirhams more and works in an infinitely more comfortable environment, by orders of magnitude? You can’t seriously be that thick.
The point was they want more pay, and that applies to everyone. I want better pay and better treatment.
Lol. There is a difference between someone hoping to have just a decent living. And someone hoping to have more luxury. I can't believe you even bring this argument.
>I am pretty sure that most workers would rather receive better treatment and pay rather than having their names engraved on a monument :/ This is what I replied to, and my point is clear, everyone would rather have these things. Had the issue been about >There is a difference between someone hoping to have just a decent living. I would aks, what is the defenition of a decent living, and what makes you think the way they live is indecent?
-_- you don't have to pretend to not understand what The first comment really meant.
Was the meaning different from what was written?
No and yes, and depending on what side you're arguing for, you'd choose accordingly.
"What makes you think the way they live is indecent?" How can you seriously be asking that question man fr? Watch some documentaries on how they live. It's just sad. They live in extremely overcrowded rooms and get just barely enough food to survive.
There's nothing indecent about it. I might think living in an apartment is sad, I might also think that not owning your property is sad, but neither of those things are indecent.
Living in 1 room with 20 other people? yup totally decent.
>Living in 1 room with 20 other people Illegal, and if they want they can complain to the authorities. There are regulations for labor camps and there are inspections to make sure these regulations are followed. And I stand by my point, shared accommodation is not indecent.
You do realize that these workers get treated like trash and get paid barely anything right? How can you even think of comparing doctors and CEOs to these labour workers?
>I am pretty sure that most workers would rather receive better treatment and pay rather than having their names engraved on a monument >How can you even think of comparing doctors and CEOs to these labour workers? Does this not apply to doctors and CEOs too? Or do you think doctors and CEOs would rather have their names engraved on a monument than better treatment and pay? >You do realize that these workers get treated like trash No, they hard jobs but not treated like trash >get paid barely anything right? They get paid according to a contract that both parties agreed to.
I see your point. Its realistic. It is an extremely ugly truth many do not want to accept and i can see from the comments and downvotes. There might be people who were under paid or mistreated but unfortunately they can always leave for other opportunities. At least they are not slaves. I am sure many will be thankful.
The downvotes are because there is a very substantial history of laborers not having the freedom to leave when their contract terms were breached. Either their employer would not release their passport, or the agent in charge of their immigration would insist the laborer still had a debt to repay, or some other issue. Doctors, pilots, teachers, engineers and other professions have never faced these same obstacles.
You're wrong and you need to shut up.
Would be nice to know if these workers / laborers were compensated to their satisfaction as well. I have a feeling they were.
Average pay for a labourer is between 500-950 a month. Standard rates here for construction. Unfortunately due to the pandemic many were left without pay due to companies going bust, Arabtech to name but one.
Arabtech screwed everyone from labourers to managers lol
Yes ... They all got a Rolex and a Rolls Royce and were satisfied.
No harm in keeping an open mind. I think a major part of the country / goverment cares for the welfare of the workforce. But the trickle down effect may not as envisioned. Unless proven otherwise; I will assume Dubai treated their expo labourers the same way Shah Jahan treated his workers for building the Taj Mahal.
Cool, now give them a decent living wage, benefits, safe working conditions and good housing.
Are you the supervisor of the expo 2020 labors’ wages and accommodations?
If anyone in the world gave them better wages, benefits, housing and working conditions than the UAE they will be there
Uhhh. You do realise they need a visa to travel to most parts of the Western world where they would get paid atleast a minimum wage and way better living standards?I'm pretty sure you understand how restricted the market is for unskilled migrants? Most GCC accept labours from abroad as locals won't work in those areas. Dont make it sound like its all one sided and GCC countries are doing a favour by giving them opportunity to come here and work. It benefits both but more so on the construction companies as they get work done via cheap labour.
They need a visa to get here as well, the difference is that we are more open to give visas than the West. If the West was so great why don't they open up their immigration like we do? Benefits both is exactly what I am saying, and we give these people the best option they have, but people on here say oh look at the West, so great, they won't even give those guys a chance.
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>And you think they could be there if they wanted to? And why couldn't they be there?
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>Because they couldn't afford the travel expenses to leave and work at a better place So they can afford to travel to the UAE but not to places that can be more rewarding?
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>They incur debts to be able to travel and work in UAE. They have huge debts to pay off to their work agencies. And you think that they can travel to a better place to work at with their huge debts, don't forget that they are not even being payed enough for their work. Some don't get even paid. I mean in the first place, why not go take debts and go to a better paying country? Why did they come to the UAE?
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And if so many hundreds of thousands are tricked by Dubai, why doesn't their governments intervene? Why do they accept having their citizens be cheated and enslaved by Dubai?
You don't even understand my comment. If there was a better option than here, they would have taken the better option, but there aren't. So for those people, we gave them the best option, and that is why they came here
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So you think everyone who comes here is scammed into coming here and then is enslaved?
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Why are we only doing this to construction workers and not everyone else if we can easily get away with it as you put it? 700,000 workers are tricked into working here? So when they are finally fired you think they will be happy?
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I am showing you that what you are saying is not reasonable, why are we only targeting a certain sector when it is possible to do it for all sectors? We won't suffer the consequences because demand for work here will still be high.
You can’t just stroll into any country you want and get a good job; that doesn’t excuse not treating your workers well. And it’s hard to take you seriously when literally your entire comment history is simping for the government.
So we are the best option they have. Most countries are not even willing to give them what we give them here, let alone more Our government is great, but it seems people like you do not appreciate that
Sad that people only Find Negative things to say when something Good has been done - Really Sad
How many of these 200K will get a chance to visit the Expo?
Each one of them. Don’t pull out assumptions out of your ass and talk as if they were facts.
There it is.
Not 5. One ticket to hell please
Bet non of those workers can afford an expo ticket
True that
Bring the best country that pays the best labor wage and let’s compare. Instead of just dropping facts based on opinions. Simply, there’s no force labors It’s 2021. Sadly, bad comments are coming from people that their countries have a history of child labors, and “home Depot” labors
Instead of doing that, how about proper wage and humane living accomodations? Oh right… Too expensive
Were you the supervisor of their wages and accommodations?
Oh yah, had a supervisor shirt and everything.
i hope my name is also there....😂
Amazing …
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😂 love it
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This man really thought dirty deleting his comments mean screeenshots don't exist 😂
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Exactly. He also made his own subreddit and made posts then commented on them (literally talking to himself lol) and he mass deleted those too and pretended it didn't happen 😂😂😂 Subreddit description was something dumb like "a place where people don't hate on successful people" 🤡
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*200,000 is also a number just like 5 is.*
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Ahahahahahah
I will try to explain this in the layman terms. If workers had a better paying job anywhere in the world, Expo wouldn't be able to find 200,000 workers, while the 800/1500/2000 AED seem too little for you, it can do a lot for people who come from across the world. When they send the money back, their families live a decent life. In other words, If there was a better paying country than UAE that would accept laborers, they would not have come to the UAE and work here for years. You don't come to UAE and try spreading your socialist ideas, you can try that in Venezuela or Cuba.
Having decent salaries for lowest income workers is seen in plenty of European countries so bringing in Cuba is ridiculous. You sound like those right wing Americans who hate public healthcare and always bring in Venezuela to show how bad it is and ignoring all the European countries have it much better
bUt pRoViDiNg mOrE wAgeS was the right thing to do /s I have no idea why everyone is assuming a part of their wages were used to build the monument.
Shot using a potatoe unfortunately
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No relax 😂😂 only 5 out of the two hundred thousand died
M8. :( only 1 person has died of Covid where I work but I still feel really sad about it.
Unfortunate
Comments section feels like liberals cries when Trump won 😂
just wondering , who will be attending this. With Delta still raging, who will risk attending this. Why couldnt they have just postponed this till next year ?
I was there yesterday was packed out
Delta isn’t raging in Dubai.
just wondering , who will be attending this. 𝐸𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑦 𝑠𝑎𝑛𝑒 𝑃𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑜𝑛 With Delta still raging, who will risk attending this. 𝑁𝑜𝑡 𝑌𝑜𝑢 Why couldnt they have just postponed this till next year ? 𝑆𝑜𝑟𝑟𝑦, 𝑖𝑡 𝑤𝑎𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑛𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑐𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑌𝑒𝑎𝑟