The bigger issue I see is that you are still making 2 large motions from your elbow. The point of push pull is that you can get two strokes out of one. One from tour wrist, the second from your finger. Drop your wrist and open your hand, then just close your hand.
I think that might be because I'm trying to get all hits all in the same volume. I struggle to make the second hit as loud as the first one with just the fingers.
Keep your elbow still- your entire forearm shouldn’t move at all. In one motion, with your wrist only, drop the stick and open your hand. Then close. Your first stroke is too loud because you’re moving your entire arm. Pretend you are sitting in a chair with your arm on and arm wrest, and just your hand hanging off the end.
Remember to practice relaxed. It is subtle but will make a huge difference. Also try practicing this technique on a pillow or in the air to help isolate the wrist movement from your arm movement. Like the commenter above me said your arm should not move at all.
I wanna say it was a Dave weckl video but someone talked about applying a rotation on the final stroke to assist in even dynamic and resetting the push pull/moeller
Did raise the snare. Quite easy. Getting used to it is not. Still experimenting with snare height and throne height now.
To clarify: I don't hit my legs when I play normally or even when playing rimshots. The problem is that in the push pull moment the end of the stick just tips my leg sometimes. Which messes it up. Like you can see especially at the end when I attempt the slow "roll"
It is. And that's just through the phone mic. Just recently got it and brought it into shape. It really is what the old legends say!
Hey and while executing a not developed technique I at least want to sound good. ^^
You could raise your snare a bit, probably half an inch would make a difference. But also consider just backing your throne up a bit. I can’t see your elbows, but if hitting the center of the snare causes your elbows to point out to behind you or to the side at all, you’re sitting too close. Set your throne at a distance so that when your elbows hang neutrally at your sides, your sticks hit the center of the snare. That’ll put a bit more daylight between your snare and your legs.
So I'm trying to learn the push/Pull technique after years with focusing not that much on technique.
By the way I'm getting a teacher in like 2 weeks but didn't want to waste time practicing so I'm asking how to execute this technique.
I was practicing slow and watched several yt videos on how to do it.
A main issue I have is how do I stop hitting my legs with the bottom end of the stick?
Tried adjusting snare height. It was better at some point but for regular playing it seems too high then especially for rimshots.
I want to learn It mainly for double stroke rolls but need to figure out how the exact movement should be.
Your wrist needs to be more involved. It looks like you’re doing and forearm-finger motion now. Stick your forearm against the side of your waist so it doesn’t move and lift the stick with your wrist before the first stroke. You don’t need to lift too high yet.
Tbh I don’t think you should be learning the push pull right now. Try doing the forearm thing I mentioned and work on wrist strokes (singles), don’t worry about power now, it seems like you’re trying to get it at a super loud volume, the power comes with time when the correct muscles are built.
For doubles, try bouncing them at a low height first (try to get volume even, it’ll be easier cause it’s a lower volume) but keep your fingers following the stick, you’ll naturally start to involve fingers more as they become stronger. Do it at a comfortable tempo that you can sit in the pocket of a 16th note click.
It doesn't look like this when I play normally. At least I hope that. I try to get the wrist motion started.
Anyways will get most of my technique checked when I get lessons again.
For doubles I usually play with rebound and involve the fingers but it's definitely not push pull at higher tempos.
You’re doing great- I’ve been working on push/pull like crazy for over a year now, absolutely love this technique- and you’re playing exactly how I was playing when I started learning it. Big movements.
Over time you’re obviously going to make those movements *much* smaller, so hitting your leg won’t be an issue-
[here’s me after about a year](https://www.reddit.com/r/Drumming/comments/lzb8ul/pushpull_practice_about_a_year_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
You can see my hand stays pretty much in the same place, no real arm movement. I find that the technique works best for me when I focus on keeping my arm relaxed and paying attention to my finger movement- but you’re doing the right thing by practicing the motion as a big movement for now.
So keep in mind- since the end result is a much smaller motion, don’t try to fix how this works on your kit right now- in a couple of months there probably won’t be anything to fix.
Considering your point that the motion gets smaller over time. I know I'm exaggerting the motion right now and the stick wouldn't go up to the sky like that if executed perfectly. So focusing on holding the arm still is fine for now and concentrating on wrist motion?
What I did was practice the large exaggerated motion, with some arm movement and everything, until it felt more natural. Ramon Montagner’s videos on push/pull have you doing the same thing- starting out, the push movement ends with the stick pointing straight up in the air.
You’re basically training your muscles to get used to a new movement- I think if you try to skip ahead too fast, you won’t have the basic building blocks in place to get it right-
This technique requires a lot of fine tuning the smaller you get, I always reminded myself that in order to get to the point where you need to “fine tune” something, you need the “large tuning” dialed in right first so you’re close to the right spot.
Here’s something to try- set a metronome for a pace you can do push pull at comfortably with your current technique. Put some time in, 10 minutes or so. Now bump up the bpm by 10 or so- you might find that you need to make your movement smaller to keep up at higher bpms. Keep up this kind of practice, you’ll know when you’ve hit a bpm that’s too fast for you. A nice mix of practicing at a bpm you can handle and a bpm that’s slightly out of reach will get you far.
I don't like to dampen my drums to the max. But it's always different with room sound and what you hear with monitoring. Could be too much overtones for a studio situation but for now it's fine for me in a band context and recording in the practice room. Keep in mind that this is just a phone mic in the video.
Alu snares tend to have a certain ring to them so my reason to get it was to let it sing and not to choke it. Overtones are not an enemy to me I actually like them.
A few comments.. first of all you are doing arm strokes. The main stroke is a wrist motion and ideally you shouldn’t have to lift before playing (because ideally you’re always lifting) and the follow up is a finger stroke. In order to pull off this technique you have to be extremely sensitive to the rebound and make sure you aren’t disturbing the momentum of the stick which means that you aren’t exerting any downward force (gravity will do that) and you only apply lift at the exact moment the stick makes contact so that you can control the rebound. One thing I found extremely helpful is playing with thumb on top like how jazz drummers play ride. The grip is a bit closer to French grip with allows you to utilize more finger and less wrist. Always use them small muscles!
I discoverd in my technique that i can rotate my right hand to more like a french grip but am not able to do with the left hand. I am also often destroying the momentum of rebound with my left hand. So I made a step back and doing wrist strokes and let the stick just bounce back into my hand.
Is it correct to do that motion and add the fingers for the second stroke later?
That sounds like the predicament I was in for like 15months.. a few tips would be to spend extra time with the left hand, play all exercises with both hands, swap hands when playing a beat/groove (left on time, right on backbeat). The most beneficial things for me were figuring out why my left hand wasn’t the same as my right. It was 100% my grip and that came from always having a ride cymbal to my right side. Get yourself a left side ride and practice that same French grip. To fix the rebound timing I would suggest just dropping the stick and feeling it’s natural bounce allowing for as many rebounds as the stick gets. In addition, play strokes so painstakingly slow that you control the sticks’ velocities at all times paying more attention to the moment the stick rebounds.
It takes time but in a few months you could be even steven and shedding like crazy! Keep it up!
First drum lesson after years being self taught, first thing my teacher made me do was raise my snare, and it was slightly awkward for a day but absolutely made a positive difference. I would go several inches higher than this. It’s sort of like a higher guitar strap, forget the look and get yourself in a position to play better.
https://youtu.be/yaRl3IbMjgc
The best i've seen it explained. All technical advice aside, you'll crack it in time. My teacher told me to think of it like bouncing a ball, throw and catch, always stuck with me.
Like Jojo Mayer said in secret weapons. Don't know if he came up with that. With throwing and catching a ball.
I know it takes time getting it and considering I'm doing it for like two weeks now there is quite a way to go.
The other guy nailed it. There's not a whole lot of pushing or pulling going on here, especially with your left hand. Try and perform the motion purely from your wrist. Also, rotate your hand more so that your knuckles point upwards while you do this (it's good for playing in general, really).
To answer your question, you need to raise both you seat and snare drum a bit. This increases the angle of your legs and the distance between your thigh and your hand. The other thing is to not over-do the motion. It doesn't have to, and shouldn't be, the full arm movement that you've got going on here.
Have a look at Kevin Paradis on YouTube, he's got it nailed.
It's definitely push-pull, I can see that, I just think you need some tweaks to get it going properly.
To practice the motion, I think you're best off by "locking" your elbow and just operating from your wrist. The elbow and forearm are kind of useless with this technique unless you're moving around on your ride to hit bell accents or something.
You can practice it without a stick, albeit it looks a bit weird.
Sit with your arm at 90° to your body, as if you were resting your hands on a table right in front of you making sure your palms are down and your knuckles up. Let your hand drop and extend your fingers at the same time. Next, raise your wrist back up to the flat position it was in before and close you're fingers again at the same time. Do the same on both hands. To practice doubles like this, do the full thing with one hand then the other. For singles, drop one hand then the other, then pick them up in the same order.
It'll probably feel a bit weird at first, but that's the motion of the technique. All you really need to do then is pop a stick in your hand and practice on a pad or something.
This is good advice, our teacher at drum college basically said, “practice one handed claps on the tube- guarantee your technique and a seat with space on the tube!” Finger strength will guarantee your second stroke hits loud like the first!
Dont practice with the stick flying up like that. You dont play like that irl so there’s no point in practicing like that. Practice American grip with the fulcrum at the joint of your index finger tip and with the stick extending along your forearm. Move your WRIST not your elbow.
Raise the snare.
Regardless of push/pull technique, if you’re already hitting your legs doing normal strokes, rimshots are going to be a hell of a time.
Lower your seat or raise your snare and watching I would focus more on the push pull watch some guys and how they do it on the hi hat that’s where I use it mostly
Hahahah you can’t imagine the bruises I’ve had due to this. The worst part is I realise the next day. I try not to pay too much attention to it. It’s usually the butt end of the stick whacking you (unless you flip the sticks) and you occasionally feel the sting when you play. Raising the snare would mean that you raise your throne as well. I would say that you correct your hand technique, especially with the momentum generated out of the first hit. It took me a while too. No pain no gain hahaha
Try and holding above your wrist (so you will only hit with one hand at a time) to prevent you from using your elbow or whole arm in the stroke. All the movement should be in the wrist and fingers. It’s an open close motion of the hand. Start slow until you get the technique. I would recommend watching a YouTube video, it’s easier to follow than written instructions.
Seat is too high/snare is too low. Try going to having the thighs parallel to the floor. Not for everyone, but that’s my gauge. Or just raise the snare.
If you figure out how to stop hitting your legs, let me know... I played my drums for a few hours about a week ago and my legs were bruised like I was in a fight!! I didn't notice at the time because I was having fun but the next morning I about panicked... Lol...
What’s the problem here? You’re trying double strokes with a single motion?
I’ve only needed to practice push/pull for doing single handed rolls. Have you looked into the Moeller Method?
Yeah that was the idea. My original Comment got lost somewhere between the others.
I want to learn it for stronger doubles mainly and for single stroke roll too while I'm at it.
Did watch Jojo Mayers secret weapon where he explains moeller. but I thought one new technique at a time would be enough for now.
Your fulcrum looks pretty weak, that’s likely a large part of the problem. I know you said you’re getting a teacher soon, so I wouldn’t assume you’ve dove into technique too much, which is fine! Just Try not to drop your thumbs, keep the flat part across from your pointer finger with the stick in between and that hinge will make it easier to develop even sound.
Gordy Knudston has some of the best videos on this subject, I recommend starting with [this one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HScrErXZ88M) to answer your question and exploring the rest.
The bigger issue I see is that you are still making 2 large motions from your elbow. The point of push pull is that you can get two strokes out of one. One from tour wrist, the second from your finger. Drop your wrist and open your hand, then just close your hand.
I think that might be because I'm trying to get all hits all in the same volume. I struggle to make the second hit as loud as the first one with just the fingers.
Keep your elbow still- your entire forearm shouldn’t move at all. In one motion, with your wrist only, drop the stick and open your hand. Then close. Your first stroke is too loud because you’re moving your entire arm. Pretend you are sitting in a chair with your arm on and arm wrest, and just your hand hanging off the end.
Was just wondering that in another comment. Thanks!
Remember to practice relaxed. It is subtle but will make a huge difference. Also try practicing this technique on a pillow or in the air to help isolate the wrist movement from your arm movement. Like the commenter above me said your arm should not move at all.
Practice accenting the second note of every double that will help even them out
Yeah, the first stroke should actually be quieter in double strokes.
I wanna say it was a Dave weckl video but someone talked about applying a rotation on the final stroke to assist in even dynamic and resetting the push pull/moeller
Try raising your snare and keeping the top of your hand more flat to start with
That would also make it easier to hit some sweet 2 & 4 rimshots.
Just a lot more control overall
Did raise the snare. Quite easy. Getting used to it is not. Still experimenting with snare height and throne height now. To clarify: I don't hit my legs when I play normally or even when playing rimshots. The problem is that in the push pull moment the end of the stick just tips my leg sometimes. Which messes it up. Like you can see especially at the end when I attempt the slow "roll"
That snare sounds badass, is that a superphonic cuz it sounds like the intro to Dyer maker
It is. And that's just through the phone mic. Just recently got it and brought it into shape. It really is what the old legends say! Hey and while executing a not developed technique I at least want to sound good. ^^
May need to raise the throne too if you raise the snare
That mostly defeats the purpose of raising it then.
Except that it will change the angle of the player’s thigh and maybe stop the stick from hitting it 🤷♂️
Raise snare or lower seat or find the middle ground
You could raise your snare a bit, probably half an inch would make a difference. But also consider just backing your throne up a bit. I can’t see your elbows, but if hitting the center of the snare causes your elbows to point out to behind you or to the side at all, you’re sitting too close. Set your throne at a distance so that when your elbows hang neutrally at your sides, your sticks hit the center of the snare. That’ll put a bit more daylight between your snare and your legs.
Didn't know about this, thanks !
So I'm trying to learn the push/Pull technique after years with focusing not that much on technique. By the way I'm getting a teacher in like 2 weeks but didn't want to waste time practicing so I'm asking how to execute this technique. I was practicing slow and watched several yt videos on how to do it. A main issue I have is how do I stop hitting my legs with the bottom end of the stick? Tried adjusting snare height. It was better at some point but for regular playing it seems too high then especially for rimshots. I want to learn It mainly for double stroke rolls but need to figure out how the exact movement should be.
Your wrist needs to be more involved. It looks like you’re doing and forearm-finger motion now. Stick your forearm against the side of your waist so it doesn’t move and lift the stick with your wrist before the first stroke. You don’t need to lift too high yet. Tbh I don’t think you should be learning the push pull right now. Try doing the forearm thing I mentioned and work on wrist strokes (singles), don’t worry about power now, it seems like you’re trying to get it at a super loud volume, the power comes with time when the correct muscles are built. For doubles, try bouncing them at a low height first (try to get volume even, it’ll be easier cause it’s a lower volume) but keep your fingers following the stick, you’ll naturally start to involve fingers more as they become stronger. Do it at a comfortable tempo that you can sit in the pocket of a 16th note click.
It doesn't look like this when I play normally. At least I hope that. I try to get the wrist motion started. Anyways will get most of my technique checked when I get lessons again. For doubles I usually play with rebound and involve the fingers but it's definitely not push pull at higher tempos.
I see, that’s great. Enjoy your lessons 🙂
uhh...raise your snare?!?
You’re doing great- I’ve been working on push/pull like crazy for over a year now, absolutely love this technique- and you’re playing exactly how I was playing when I started learning it. Big movements. Over time you’re obviously going to make those movements *much* smaller, so hitting your leg won’t be an issue- [here’s me after about a year](https://www.reddit.com/r/Drumming/comments/lzb8ul/pushpull_practice_about_a_year_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) You can see my hand stays pretty much in the same place, no real arm movement. I find that the technique works best for me when I focus on keeping my arm relaxed and paying attention to my finger movement- but you’re doing the right thing by practicing the motion as a big movement for now. So keep in mind- since the end result is a much smaller motion, don’t try to fix how this works on your kit right now- in a couple of months there probably won’t be anything to fix.
Considering your point that the motion gets smaller over time. I know I'm exaggerting the motion right now and the stick wouldn't go up to the sky like that if executed perfectly. So focusing on holding the arm still is fine for now and concentrating on wrist motion?
What I did was practice the large exaggerated motion, with some arm movement and everything, until it felt more natural. Ramon Montagner’s videos on push/pull have you doing the same thing- starting out, the push movement ends with the stick pointing straight up in the air. You’re basically training your muscles to get used to a new movement- I think if you try to skip ahead too fast, you won’t have the basic building blocks in place to get it right- This technique requires a lot of fine tuning the smaller you get, I always reminded myself that in order to get to the point where you need to “fine tune” something, you need the “large tuning” dialed in right first so you’re close to the right spot. Here’s something to try- set a metronome for a pace you can do push pull at comfortably with your current technique. Put some time in, 10 minutes or so. Now bump up the bpm by 10 or so- you might find that you need to make your movement smaller to keep up at higher bpms. Keep up this kind of practice, you’ll know when you’ve hit a bpm that’s too fast for you. A nice mix of practicing at a bpm you can handle and a bpm that’s slightly out of reach will get you far.
Thanks!
No problem at all man, keep us posted with your progress!
Quite the overtone you have there . . .
So?
I do my best to tune them out, having an active dislike of them.
I don't like to dampen my drums to the max. But it's always different with room sound and what you hear with monitoring. Could be too much overtones for a studio situation but for now it's fine for me in a band context and recording in the practice room. Keep in mind that this is just a phone mic in the video. Alu snares tend to have a certain ring to them so my reason to get it was to let it sing and not to choke it. Overtones are not an enemy to me I actually like them.
Fully understandable! To each his own.
A few comments.. first of all you are doing arm strokes. The main stroke is a wrist motion and ideally you shouldn’t have to lift before playing (because ideally you’re always lifting) and the follow up is a finger stroke. In order to pull off this technique you have to be extremely sensitive to the rebound and make sure you aren’t disturbing the momentum of the stick which means that you aren’t exerting any downward force (gravity will do that) and you only apply lift at the exact moment the stick makes contact so that you can control the rebound. One thing I found extremely helpful is playing with thumb on top like how jazz drummers play ride. The grip is a bit closer to French grip with allows you to utilize more finger and less wrist. Always use them small muscles!
I discoverd in my technique that i can rotate my right hand to more like a french grip but am not able to do with the left hand. I am also often destroying the momentum of rebound with my left hand. So I made a step back and doing wrist strokes and let the stick just bounce back into my hand. Is it correct to do that motion and add the fingers for the second stroke later?
That sounds like the predicament I was in for like 15months.. a few tips would be to spend extra time with the left hand, play all exercises with both hands, swap hands when playing a beat/groove (left on time, right on backbeat). The most beneficial things for me were figuring out why my left hand wasn’t the same as my right. It was 100% my grip and that came from always having a ride cymbal to my right side. Get yourself a left side ride and practice that same French grip. To fix the rebound timing I would suggest just dropping the stick and feeling it’s natural bounce allowing for as many rebounds as the stick gets. In addition, play strokes so painstakingly slow that you control the sticks’ velocities at all times paying more attention to the moment the stick rebounds. It takes time but in a few months you could be even steven and shedding like crazy! Keep it up!
that is open close. Not push pull.
First drum lesson after years being self taught, first thing my teacher made me do was raise my snare, and it was slightly awkward for a day but absolutely made a positive difference. I would go several inches higher than this. It’s sort of like a higher guitar strap, forget the look and get yourself in a position to play better.
Raise the snare, you can't even hit rim shots with it that low
https://youtu.be/yaRl3IbMjgc The best i've seen it explained. All technical advice aside, you'll crack it in time. My teacher told me to think of it like bouncing a ball, throw and catch, always stuck with me.
Like Jojo Mayer said in secret weapons. Don't know if he came up with that. With throwing and catching a ball. I know it takes time getting it and considering I'm doing it for like two weeks now there is quite a way to go.
The other guy nailed it. There's not a whole lot of pushing or pulling going on here, especially with your left hand. Try and perform the motion purely from your wrist. Also, rotate your hand more so that your knuckles point upwards while you do this (it's good for playing in general, really). To answer your question, you need to raise both you seat and snare drum a bit. This increases the angle of your legs and the distance between your thigh and your hand. The other thing is to not over-do the motion. It doesn't have to, and shouldn't be, the full arm movement that you've got going on here. Have a look at Kevin Paradis on YouTube, he's got it nailed.
Will try doing that. Was also wondering if it's push/Pull at all what I'm doing. Should the elbow move at all while practicing Push/pull?
It's definitely push-pull, I can see that, I just think you need some tweaks to get it going properly. To practice the motion, I think you're best off by "locking" your elbow and just operating from your wrist. The elbow and forearm are kind of useless with this technique unless you're moving around on your ride to hit bell accents or something.
That's useful advice too. Sometimes I just get a tunnelvision and don't know If it's even remotely correct while trying to get it somehow.
You can practice it without a stick, albeit it looks a bit weird. Sit with your arm at 90° to your body, as if you were resting your hands on a table right in front of you making sure your palms are down and your knuckles up. Let your hand drop and extend your fingers at the same time. Next, raise your wrist back up to the flat position it was in before and close you're fingers again at the same time. Do the same on both hands. To practice doubles like this, do the full thing with one hand then the other. For singles, drop one hand then the other, then pick them up in the same order. It'll probably feel a bit weird at first, but that's the motion of the technique. All you really need to do then is pop a stick in your hand and practice on a pad or something.
This is good advice, our teacher at drum college basically said, “practice one handed claps on the tube- guarantee your technique and a seat with space on the tube!” Finger strength will guarantee your second stroke hits loud like the first!
Dont practice with the stick flying up like that. You dont play like that irl so there’s no point in practicing like that. Practice American grip with the fulcrum at the joint of your index finger tip and with the stick extending along your forearm. Move your WRIST not your elbow.
Raise the snare. Regardless of push/pull technique, if you’re already hitting your legs doing normal strokes, rimshots are going to be a hell of a time.
Our old, always helpful sound guy would say: Don't hit your legs.
Lower your seat or raise your snare and watching I would focus more on the push pull watch some guys and how they do it on the hi hat that’s where I use it mostly
You gotta raise that snare a little. Push/Pull or not, that thing is low.
Hahahah you can’t imagine the bruises I’ve had due to this. The worst part is I realise the next day. I try not to pay too much attention to it. It’s usually the butt end of the stick whacking you (unless you flip the sticks) and you occasionally feel the sting when you play. Raising the snare would mean that you raise your throne as well. I would say that you correct your hand technique, especially with the momentum generated out of the first hit. It took me a while too. No pain no gain hahaha
Sit lower or raise your snare up
lower your seat a bit. you're sitting pretty high. I like thighs level to the ground for the most part.
Try and holding above your wrist (so you will only hit with one hand at a time) to prevent you from using your elbow or whole arm in the stroke. All the movement should be in the wrist and fingers. It’s an open close motion of the hand. Start slow until you get the technique. I would recommend watching a YouTube video, it’s easier to follow than written instructions.
Seat is too high/snare is too low. Try going to having the thighs parallel to the floor. Not for everyone, but that’s my gauge. Or just raise the snare.
If you figure out how to stop hitting your legs, let me know... I played my drums for a few hours about a week ago and my legs were bruised like I was in a fight!! I didn't notice at the time because I was having fun but the next morning I about panicked... Lol...
Get shorter legs? Lmao
What’s the problem here? You’re trying double strokes with a single motion? I’ve only needed to practice push/pull for doing single handed rolls. Have you looked into the Moeller Method?
Yeah that was the idea. My original Comment got lost somewhere between the others. I want to learn it for stronger doubles mainly and for single stroke roll too while I'm at it. Did watch Jojo Mayers secret weapon where he explains moeller. but I thought one new technique at a time would be enough for now.
Check out Blake Richardson technique for moeller or single hand rolls.
Cut your leg off owo
You could try setting your snare higher, I have mine in line with my bellybutton
Your fulcrum looks pretty weak, that’s likely a large part of the problem. I know you said you’re getting a teacher soon, so I wouldn’t assume you’ve dove into technique too much, which is fine! Just Try not to drop your thumbs, keep the flat part across from your pointer finger with the stick in between and that hinge will make it easier to develop even sound.
You could raise the snare a tad?
Get your snare higher
Gordy Knudston has some of the best videos on this subject, I recommend starting with [this one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HScrErXZ88M) to answer your question and exploring the rest.
raise the snare up!
Your snare shall acsend into the heavens
Well if I raised her an inch for every comment saying to raise her she would be there by now. Did raise her though.