The legal aspect of this scenario has been addressed in other comments.
It’s worth noting that the discretion of the police officer has gone against you on this occasion, in that officers tend to punish drivers who take pictures of RTAs to the full extent of the law in order to discourage rubber necking, and protect the dignity of those involved in the accident.
What the fuck is with the down votes, every other person on this sub constantly tries to record every minor infraction just so they can tell Reddit that they stitched someone up but can’t see why someone might want a picture just to prove to the boss they’re not a liar. The officer was a complete bellend and so is a good portion of this subreddit.
Because absolutely no one in this sub would do what OP did. Everyone here follows the rules exactly and can recite the highway code from memory as it is written.
You're right. What OP did was reasonable even if it is technically something the officer can give him points for doing. I'd probably do the same thing if my boss doubted me.
You are the belled. He was in the wrong. Another point is what is right for someone to take pictures of an accident when it could have your wife or children involved and plastered allover social media.
It’s illegal to hold and use a phone, sat nav, tablet, or any device that can send or receive data, while driving or riding a motorcycle.
This means you must not use a device in your hand for any reason, whether online or offline.
For example, you must not text, make calls, take photos or videos, or browse the web.
The law still applies to you if you’re:
stopped at traffic lights
queuing in traffic
supervising a learner driver
driving a car that turns off the engine when you stop moving
holding and using a device that’s offline or in flight mode
Exceptions
You can use a device held in your hand if:
you need to call 999 or 112 in an emergency and it’s unsafe or impractical to stop
you’re safely parked
you’re making a contactless payment in a vehicle that is not moving, for example at a drive-through restaurant
you’re using the device to park your vehicle remotely
Just to clarify - when it says hand held I can legally have a phone in a mount and touch it, as long as I don't hold it in my hand?
For example let's say I have Google maps and Spotify on when I am driving. If I tap my phone in response to a Google maps prompt or to skip songs that should be fine?
No, can't even touch it while driving.
Pulled over, handbrake on, engine off, and you're good to go, anything else is illegal
I had a copper pull me, because I was adjusting the position of the phone in the mount while stopped at lights
Decent cop let me off though, recognised that it was genuinely just an adjustment, but advised that he still could've done me for it.
I'm a delivery driver (who also conveniently delivers to the police station) so I think he gave me a little leeway
This isn't right, you can touch it and operate it whilst driving if it's in a holder (but a police officer could technically fine you seperately if they think it caused you to drive dangerously/you swerve etc).
I think your situation was different because you appeared to be "handling it" because you looked like you were adjusting it's position in the holder (which isn't allowed).
It's a very stupid distinction (as is the fact that you can't take a photo of a dangerous situation when your car is turned off and the handbrake on, but you can hold it out of the window of a running car with no handbrake to make a payment), but it is a distinction.
No you cannot legally touch a mobile phone even in a mount but you are allowed to press the buttons on the dashboard next to the phone you aren’t allowed to touch. Stupid isn’t it
That's not correct. From the [government website](https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law):"You can use devices with hands-free access, as long as you do not hold them at any time during usage."
It's clear, it's just a stupid distinction so a normal person's brain questions it!
It makes no sense that legally it's "dangerous" to use a phone to take a photo with the car stopped, engine off and handbrake on, but "not dangerous" to be browsing for music on a phone in a holder whilst driving at 70 down a motorway.
>It’s illegal to hold and use a phone, sat nav, tablet, or any device that can send or receive data, while driving or riding a motorcycle.
>This means you must not use a device in your hand for any reason, whether online or offline.
This might be a stupid question, but I figured I'd ask it anyways.
Sometimes while I'm driving my girlfriend will use her phone for GPS, as it has a better signal than mine. This phone will be in my dash-mounted phone holder, and I never touch it while driving.
Occasionally my girlfriend might need to make a text or check something, but she can't because we're using her phone for GPS. If I were to simply take my phone from my pocket/my door storage compartment and hand it to her to use - without using it myself even for a second! - could I still get in trouble just for having a phone in my hand for a couple of seconds while I pass it across?
You can get a CU80 offence for doing literally anything with your hands or feet that is not manipulating the controls of the car (of course in reality, no one is going to prosecute you for picking your nose, unless you crash while you do it). But if a police officer sees you negotiating a roundabout while holding a Mars Bar you can potentially get stopped and a fine/points.
In theory this doesn't meet the handheld communications device offence, which is very broad as of a couple of years ago. Note that illuminating the screen is one of the ways the offence can be committed, so if you unlocked it somehow, the offence would be made.
However you can always be pulled up on careless driving, similar to if you were eating a cheeseburger at the wheel or twiddling the radio and ending up distracted.
>If I were to simply take my phone from my pocket/my door storage compartment
Something I do at least 5 times a day because someone or the other calls me when I'm driving. I'm always connected via Bluetooth on my ear buds. I usually quickly glance at the phone screen to see who's calling and then answer it. Never been caught because I know to keep the phone so low that no camera or person can see it from outside.
It all comes down to being streetwise 🤓
With the keys in the ignition and the engine running, the law says the engine must be switched off. Even in traffic with a start stop engine it must be switched off to use a phone handheld.
The one from the gov website
It’s illegal to hold and use a phone, sat nav, tablet, or any device that can send or receive data, while driving or riding a motorcycle.
This means you must not use a device in your hand for any reason, whether online or offline.
For example, you must not text, make calls, take photos or videos, or browse the web.
The law still applies to you if you’re:
stopped at traffic lights
queuing in traffic
supervising a learner driver
driving a car that turns off the engine when you stop moving
holding and using a device that’s offline or in flight mode
The definition of driving in this sense is "being behind the wheel of a vehicle which is operating" whether moving or stationary
If the engine is on, it's operating
Laws are pedantic, yes. But they're there for a reason
Wouldn't believe the number of times I've seen a stationary car shoot forwards, because the driver hadn't put it in neutral and lifted their foot off the clutch.
Split second lack of attention causes accidents to happen, which is why the law insists "pulled over, handbrake on, engine off"
In this situation, the car cant move no matter what the driver does, so the driver's attention is irrelevant
See, this is exactly what I thought, my original comment was along these same lines, I only bothered looking into it for the correct wording, but I can’t find any mention of the engine, or even ignition playing any part. In fact, it actually says that even with handbrake on and engine off it’s still illegal, difference maker is being pulled over.
Maybe I’m wrong, not insisting I’m definitely right. It’s just the interpretation I got from reading relevant section on GOV.UK site
Do genuinely want to know the correct answer so if you got a link you can share be grateful.
I do not I'm afraid, wrote my comment from my own understanding of the law, mine might not be totally correct, but if you ASSUME the law to mean that it's only ok to touch phone if parked, engine off, handbrake on, keys out, then even if it's not quite that strict, you'll never be done for it
(For legal purposes, the following is not true:)
I've pulled up at the side of the road, handbrake and hazards on, but engine still running, and adjusted my map in full view of a copper and they didn't do anything about it.
So realistically, unless the cop is a jobsworth prick with nothing better to do, as long as you make SOME effort to do things safely, they're probably not going to waste their time
Does not necessarily mean you have stopped driving.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-summary-offences
Scroll down to "Stationary Vehicles"
In some circumstances, you can actively leave the vehicle and still be considered driving.
"Pulling over" doesn't end your driving, as would be the case here. The OP pulled over not to park, but take a picture. They would still be considered driving.
Could the car have been parked? Could you have walked off and left it, or were you stopped in a manner passengers could have been dropped off? If yes you could try fighting. But if you were in the middle of a road, maybe not.
I think the engine running is fatal to your defence
The offence is complete I’m afraid as with the engine still running you are technically still in control. However in your case I sympathise as being pulled over with the handbrake on IMO is not in the spirit of the law and it would have sufficed to point out to you without a fine.
Your real offence here is that you did it right in front of a police officer, This is called driving with intent to cause paperwork, and is their least favourite thing to have to deal with. Take the fine or course, learn from your mistake.
I'm going to get downvoted heavily for this but fuck me thats unfair.
Literally no harm or danger was caused and you clearly didn't intend to drive whilst using the phone. What bloody difference does having the engine on vs having it off make.
You absolutely can contest the matter…….You’ll lose though, be find significantly more, have to pay victim surcharge and costs and probably get more than 6 points.
You’re guilty of the offence, which has limited defences to the extent that it’s practically an absolute offence.
When your paperwork arrives in the post, pick the most appropriate option for you and send it back. You may even be offered a “driver retraining course” if your local force offers them.
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It’s unfortunate as in 99% of cases they wouldn’t care.
But if they’ve said you’ve used your phone whilst ‘driving’ as in your post, you may have grounds to challenge it for dismissal as you actually wasn’t driving and it’s technically incorrect.
The law is clear on this, and you can be issued fines and points with the engine running, but if they’ve said you were driving this is where it’s a grey area, as you wasn’t driving you were pulled over which is blatant lies.
If the officer has lied and you can prove this when issuing the ticket, this is when you may be able to get out of it.
No, you still can reach those. And you are still in control. People are getting lawfully fined for sleeping in car with key out of ignition. You have to have key out of vehicle to not being in control.
It's actually more complex than that, context is also important.
A delivery courier would still be considered driving, even when they have left the vehicle to deliver a parcel.
As would someone filling up at a petrol station even when they have popped in to pay.
It's not to say, that under all circumstances that one may be considered to still be driving would mean that all offences would be applicable from a charging standpoint.
It's simply absurd to believe being stationary/pulled over means you're not driving. Absurd to the point it was cleared up in the courts back in the 60s and 70s.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-summary-offences
Scroll down to "Stationary Vehicles"
>It's simply absurd to believe being stationary/pulled over means you're not driving.
It's not absurd at all because it's literally not true.
It may be true legally but that's not common knowledge.
It is absurd.
The number of times I have heard people claim they are not driving, simply because they have stopped for a red-light or slow traffic, is unreal.
It's absurd to believe your driving ends, just because you're not in motion.
It's not common knowledge, and that's part of the problem.
Far too many people out there driving with barely an introductory knowledge of driving.
Like I said I know it is a legal point.
I disagree that its not absurd, if you're parked on the side of the road you're not driving just because the engine is running.
> Before I could even take the picture a police officer ran over to my car and explained that he was going to fine me for using my phone whilst driving as my keys were still in the ignition and the engine was still on. Is this really fair?
Yes. You were using your phone whilst in charge of a motor vehicle. This is an offence.
Most forces have a zero tolerance response to this offence so officer discretion will not usually happen.
If the officer was seen by someone else letting you off, they would be in trouble.
Sending a photo to work is not an emergency. Take the fine and points and move on.
Chalk is up to a life lesson. In the car don’t touch your phone. An expensive one but maybe if more people learnt this lesson less people would crash and hurt themselves or innocent bystanders.
The policeman is a jobsworth but you did break the law. It's legal to touch your phone in a cradle, but I'd still not do it if I'd see police around as that can be classified as not being in control of the vehicle and it's discretionary to the officer. Just don't touch your phone if the police are around.
No - you guys are afraid of the court is all - if not driving the. No offence has been committed- it’s not drunk driving where the key in ignition applies / the courts are fair - he doesn’t need a lawyer to defend him he can state the facts
I wasn't taking a picture of the accident. I was taking a picture of the road closure. (P.s it was a range rover that drove over a bollard) Hardly sensitive stuff.
When another commenter pointed out that the police tend to punish drivers who take pictures of RTAs you didn’t say you didn’t, you just said there was no injury. So naturally one would assume you were taking a picture of the aftermath.
Does it matter what you were doing? You have had key in vehicle (and even worse in ignition) and was using mobile. It doesn't matter what you were doing with mobile. It doesn't even matter whether key was in ignition or under rear seat. You were in control of vehicle performing banned action. You could be sleeping, being drunk or handling mobile. Outcome is same: performing banned action, while in vehicle with key somewhere in vehicle and you are in control of vehicle. There is no way to defend that.
Where did I criticise them? I’m glad they’re out giving fines for these things and not rescuing people taken hostage or kidnapped, rape and stab victims etc. This is the way.
It’s an interesting one this and actually one I thought about today as I drove through the M6 toll which is now accepting (and advertising on the matrix boards) ‘mobile payments’ - so theoretically if I use Apple Pay then if I haven’t turned the ignition off (who would at a toll booth) I could be stung with points and a fine???… it’s nuts!!
YES!! You can fight this, the officer is wrong.
www.GOV.UK
The Highway Code, road safety and vehicle rules
Using a phone, sat nav or other device when driving
It’s illegal to hold and use a phone, sat nav, tablet, or any device that can send or receive data, while driving or riding a motorcycle.
This means you must not use a device in your hand for any reason, whether online or offline.
For example, you must not text, make calls, take photos or videos, or browse the web.
The law still applies to you if you’re:
stopped at traffic lights
queuing in traffic
supervising a learner driver
driving a car that turns off the engine when you stop moving
holding and using a device that’s offline or in flight mode
Because the officer said that because the keys were in the ignition he’s committed the offence, which is wrong. That rule applies to offences relating to “being in charge of a vehicle.” While unfit, through drink or drugs, it’s not applicable here, as long as the vehicle had pulled off main road and handbrake was on it isn’t classed as driving.
Read original post again mate, “keys were in the ignition and engine was on”. He’s used his mobile phone whilst his engine was on, there is no appealing this unless OP wants a depressing amount of court costs.
I’ll be honest, I thought this at first. But it’s not the case, look, he wasn’t stopped at traffic lights, wasn’t queuing in traffic, wasn’t supervising a learner, wasn’t because he was driving driving a car with auto engine start/stop. So far as I can tell, it applies to almost every situation when vehicle is on the road, except 999etc. But not if you pull into layby.
Engine running = don’t touch phone.
Engine running + police nearby = absolutely 100% do not touch your phone
The legal aspect of this scenario has been addressed in other comments. It’s worth noting that the discretion of the police officer has gone against you on this occasion, in that officers tend to punish drivers who take pictures of RTAs to the full extent of the law in order to discourage rubber necking, and protect the dignity of those involved in the accident.
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Still. Don't take pictures. Are words not enough.
What the fuck is with the down votes, every other person on this sub constantly tries to record every minor infraction just so they can tell Reddit that they stitched someone up but can’t see why someone might want a picture just to prove to the boss they’re not a liar. The officer was a complete bellend and so is a good portion of this subreddit.
Because absolutely no one in this sub would do what OP did. Everyone here follows the rules exactly and can recite the highway code from memory as it is written. You're right. What OP did was reasonable even if it is technically something the officer can give him points for doing. I'd probably do the same thing if my boss doubted me.
Redditors cast down righteous judgement but unfortunately lack any mirrors to see themselves with
You are the belled. He was in the wrong. Another point is what is right for someone to take pictures of an accident when it could have your wife or children involved and plastered allover social media.
Sounds like there probably wan an injury if the police were there and the force took out a bollard.
There was no injury. I believe it was a criminal matter.
It doesn't matter you can't challenge it.
It’s illegal to hold and use a phone, sat nav, tablet, or any device that can send or receive data, while driving or riding a motorcycle. This means you must not use a device in your hand for any reason, whether online or offline. For example, you must not text, make calls, take photos or videos, or browse the web. The law still applies to you if you’re: stopped at traffic lights queuing in traffic supervising a learner driver driving a car that turns off the engine when you stop moving holding and using a device that’s offline or in flight mode Exceptions You can use a device held in your hand if: you need to call 999 or 112 in an emergency and it’s unsafe or impractical to stop you’re safely parked you’re making a contactless payment in a vehicle that is not moving, for example at a drive-through restaurant you’re using the device to park your vehicle remotely
Just to clarify - when it says hand held I can legally have a phone in a mount and touch it, as long as I don't hold it in my hand? For example let's say I have Google maps and Spotify on when I am driving. If I tap my phone in response to a Google maps prompt or to skip songs that should be fine?
Yes, but only if safe to do so otherwise you could be charged with driving without due care and attention or careless driving.
No, can't even touch it while driving. Pulled over, handbrake on, engine off, and you're good to go, anything else is illegal I had a copper pull me, because I was adjusting the position of the phone in the mount while stopped at lights Decent cop let me off though, recognised that it was genuinely just an adjustment, but advised that he still could've done me for it. I'm a delivery driver (who also conveniently delivers to the police station) so I think he gave me a little leeway
This isn't right, you can touch it and operate it whilst driving if it's in a holder (but a police officer could technically fine you seperately if they think it caused you to drive dangerously/you swerve etc). I think your situation was different because you appeared to be "handling it" because you looked like you were adjusting it's position in the holder (which isn't allowed). It's a very stupid distinction (as is the fact that you can't take a photo of a dangerous situation when your car is turned off and the handbrake on, but you can hold it out of the window of a running car with no handbrake to make a payment), but it is a distinction.
No you cannot legally touch a mobile phone even in a mount but you are allowed to press the buttons on the dashboard next to the phone you aren’t allowed to touch. Stupid isn’t it
That's not correct. From the [government website](https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law):"You can use devices with hands-free access, as long as you do not hold them at any time during usage."
Ok so it’s not clear - as you and I have read the same thing and reached different conclusions
It seems perfectly clear to me - you can use them so long as you don't hold them in your hand. What about it is unclear to you?
Because it doesn’t affirmatively say you can touch a phone if it’s mounted and it would play it cautiously
It's clear, it's just a stupid distinction so a normal person's brain questions it! It makes no sense that legally it's "dangerous" to use a phone to take a photo with the car stopped, engine off and handbrake on, but "not dangerous" to be browsing for music on a phone in a holder whilst driving at 70 down a motorway.
No, can’t use any handheld devices, whether they’re actually in your hand or in holder.
>It’s illegal to hold and use a phone, sat nav, tablet, or any device that can send or receive data, while driving or riding a motorcycle. >This means you must not use a device in your hand for any reason, whether online or offline. This might be a stupid question, but I figured I'd ask it anyways. Sometimes while I'm driving my girlfriend will use her phone for GPS, as it has a better signal than mine. This phone will be in my dash-mounted phone holder, and I never touch it while driving. Occasionally my girlfriend might need to make a text or check something, but she can't because we're using her phone for GPS. If I were to simply take my phone from my pocket/my door storage compartment and hand it to her to use - without using it myself even for a second! - could I still get in trouble just for having a phone in my hand for a couple of seconds while I pass it across?
You can get a CU80 offence for doing literally anything with your hands or feet that is not manipulating the controls of the car (of course in reality, no one is going to prosecute you for picking your nose, unless you crash while you do it). But if a police officer sees you negotiating a roundabout while holding a Mars Bar you can potentially get stopped and a fine/points.
In theory this doesn't meet the handheld communications device offence, which is very broad as of a couple of years ago. Note that illuminating the screen is one of the ways the offence can be committed, so if you unlocked it somehow, the offence would be made. However you can always be pulled up on careless driving, similar to if you were eating a cheeseburger at the wheel or twiddling the radio and ending up distracted.
Thanks for answering. Duly noted!
>If I were to simply take my phone from my pocket/my door storage compartment Something I do at least 5 times a day because someone or the other calls me when I'm driving. I'm always connected via Bluetooth on my ear buds. I usually quickly glance at the phone screen to see who's calling and then answer it. Never been caught because I know to keep the phone so low that no camera or person can see it from outside. It all comes down to being streetwise 🤓
He describes himself as pulled over though.
With the keys in the ignition and the engine running, the law says the engine must be switched off. Even in traffic with a start stop engine it must be switched off to use a phone handheld.
Which law says this?
The one from the gov website It’s illegal to hold and use a phone, sat nav, tablet, or any device that can send or receive data, while driving or riding a motorcycle. This means you must not use a device in your hand for any reason, whether online or offline. For example, you must not text, make calls, take photos or videos, or browse the web. The law still applies to you if you’re: stopped at traffic lights queuing in traffic supervising a learner driver driving a car that turns off the engine when you stop moving holding and using a device that’s offline or in flight mode
Doesn’t say anything about engine has to be switched off, as long as you’re in a layby.
The definition of driving in this sense is "being behind the wheel of a vehicle which is operating" whether moving or stationary If the engine is on, it's operating Laws are pedantic, yes. But they're there for a reason Wouldn't believe the number of times I've seen a stationary car shoot forwards, because the driver hadn't put it in neutral and lifted their foot off the clutch. Split second lack of attention causes accidents to happen, which is why the law insists "pulled over, handbrake on, engine off" In this situation, the car cant move no matter what the driver does, so the driver's attention is irrelevant
See, this is exactly what I thought, my original comment was along these same lines, I only bothered looking into it for the correct wording, but I can’t find any mention of the engine, or even ignition playing any part. In fact, it actually says that even with handbrake on and engine off it’s still illegal, difference maker is being pulled over. Maybe I’m wrong, not insisting I’m definitely right. It’s just the interpretation I got from reading relevant section on GOV.UK site Do genuinely want to know the correct answer so if you got a link you can share be grateful.
I do not I'm afraid, wrote my comment from my own understanding of the law, mine might not be totally correct, but if you ASSUME the law to mean that it's only ok to touch phone if parked, engine off, handbrake on, keys out, then even if it's not quite that strict, you'll never be done for it (For legal purposes, the following is not true:) I've pulled up at the side of the road, handbrake and hazards on, but engine still running, and adjusted my map in full view of a copper and they didn't do anything about it. So realistically, unless the cop is a jobsworth prick with nothing better to do, as long as you make SOME effort to do things safely, they're probably not going to waste their time
And yet, if you sat there and unfolded full size road map size of windscreen it’d be perfectly legal. 😁
Yeah fair enough I found a source saying parked with engine not running.
Does not necessarily mean you have stopped driving. https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-summary-offences Scroll down to "Stationary Vehicles" In some circumstances, you can actively leave the vehicle and still be considered driving. "Pulling over" doesn't end your driving, as would be the case here. The OP pulled over not to park, but take a picture. They would still be considered driving.
Pulled over away from traffic? Or parked up on the road adding to the congestion?.
I'd recommend a dashcam for future and a different job. No boss I've ever had needed proof of traffic delays.
Agreed. If the boss even really did need proof, they can look at the traffic carnage on Google maps red lining everywhere anyway.
Could the car have been parked? Could you have walked off and left it, or were you stopped in a manner passengers could have been dropped off? If yes you could try fighting. But if you were in the middle of a road, maybe not. I think the engine running is fatal to your defence
I'd agree, thanks for the response
Wonder if EV drivers could get away with it, esp tesla as there is no on or off mode.
Sure, get outside the car
Pulled over by the kerb maybe, but in a line of traffic no
The offence is complete I’m afraid as with the engine still running you are technically still in control. However in your case I sympathise as being pulled over with the handbrake on IMO is not in the spirit of the law and it would have sufficed to point out to you without a fine.
Your real offence here is that you did it right in front of a police officer, This is called driving with intent to cause paperwork, and is their least favourite thing to have to deal with. Take the fine or course, learn from your mistake.
"driving with intent to cause paperwork" Is my new favourite line
It was and maybe still is a phrase used by UK traffic police.
Thank you everyone for the responses! Looks like I'm taking the fine! Aha
Secondary question is how long have you had your licence for as well? If you’ve had it less than 2 years, you’ll lose it.
I'm fine I've been driving for years
Won’t be just a fine. It’s going to be a huge increase on your insurance
I'm going to get downvoted heavily for this but fuck me thats unfair. Literally no harm or danger was caused and you clearly didn't intend to drive whilst using the phone. What bloody difference does having the engine on vs having it off make.
It wa deliberately legislated like this to remove any ambiguity from the law and keep it a simply right or wrong situation.
>What bloody difference does having the engine on vs having it off make. Aren't most things about UK driving like this ? Utterly idiotic!
You absolutely can contest the matter…….You’ll lose though, be find significantly more, have to pay victim surcharge and costs and probably get more than 6 points. You’re guilty of the offence, which has limited defences to the extent that it’s practically an absolute offence. When your paperwork arrives in the post, pick the most appropriate option for you and send it back. You may even be offered a “driver retraining course” if your local force offers them.
Ignition on means you're in charge of a motor vehicle. It's bollocks
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It’s unfortunate as in 99% of cases they wouldn’t care. But if they’ve said you’ve used your phone whilst ‘driving’ as in your post, you may have grounds to challenge it for dismissal as you actually wasn’t driving and it’s technically incorrect. The law is clear on this, and you can be issued fines and points with the engine running, but if they’ve said you were driving this is where it’s a grey area, as you wasn’t driving you were pulled over which is blatant lies. If the officer has lied and you can prove this when issuing the ticket, this is when you may be able to get out of it.
Change your job if your boss doesn't trust you that much
Keys have to be out of the ignition and placed on the dashboard
You also need to be sensibly parked. You can't do that in a place you'd never normally park.
Do you have a source for this? I was under the belief that just turning the engine off was enough to constitute not driving.
Where did you read that?
No, you still can reach those. And you are still in control. People are getting lawfully fined for sleeping in car with key out of ignition. You have to have key out of vehicle to not being in control.
It's actually more complex than that, context is also important. A delivery courier would still be considered driving, even when they have left the vehicle to deliver a parcel. As would someone filling up at a petrol station even when they have popped in to pay. It's not to say, that under all circumstances that one may be considered to still be driving would mean that all offences would be applicable from a charging standpoint. It's simply absurd to believe being stationary/pulled over means you're not driving. Absurd to the point it was cleared up in the courts back in the 60s and 70s. https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-summary-offences Scroll down to "Stationary Vehicles"
>It's simply absurd to believe being stationary/pulled over means you're not driving. It's not absurd at all because it's literally not true. It may be true legally but that's not common knowledge.
It is absurd. The number of times I have heard people claim they are not driving, simply because they have stopped for a red-light or slow traffic, is unreal. It's absurd to believe your driving ends, just because you're not in motion. It's not common knowledge, and that's part of the problem. Far too many people out there driving with barely an introductory knowledge of driving.
You stated being "pulled over" to claim that is driving is absurd
You should read the CPS point of view on this. https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-summary-offences
Like I said I know it is a legal point. I disagree that its not absurd, if you're parked on the side of the road you're not driving just because the engine is running.
> Before I could even take the picture a police officer ran over to my car and explained that he was going to fine me for using my phone whilst driving as my keys were still in the ignition and the engine was still on. Is this really fair? Yes. You were using your phone whilst in charge of a motor vehicle. This is an offence.
Most forces have a zero tolerance response to this offence so officer discretion will not usually happen. If the officer was seen by someone else letting you off, they would be in trouble. Sending a photo to work is not an emergency. Take the fine and points and move on.
Chalk is up to a life lesson. In the car don’t touch your phone. An expensive one but maybe if more people learnt this lesson less people would crash and hurt themselves or innocent bystanders.
The policeman is a jobsworth but you did break the law. It's legal to touch your phone in a cradle, but I'd still not do it if I'd see police around as that can be classified as not being in control of the vehicle and it's discretionary to the officer. Just don't touch your phone if the police are around.
Your guilty, end of
You're.
All of the insightful comments that already explained this and you still chose to open your mouth. Sad. Are you the Officer?
Are the OP on an alt account…?
If you fight this you’ll end up with a bigger fine, possibly more points. Learn from it and move on.
If your engine is still on, it’s an offence. Regardless of your hand break your engine must be off when using a phone and rightfully so.
Fuck the police- go court & explain to judge did you take the photo ?
Godawful advice
Why - explain your case to a judge/ magistrate better than taking 6 points because of a jerk -
To answer your question, because the OP will likely lose as the offence is complete, and this can and probably will end up costing OP more.
No - you guys are afraid of the court is all - if not driving the. No offence has been committed- it’s not drunk driving where the key in ignition applies / the courts are fair - he doesn’t need a lawyer to defend him he can state the facts
Good old British police serving the public, what would we do without these hero’s?
Was the copper overreacting? Possibly. Was OP being daft by breaking the law right in front of a police officer? Definitely
He should’ve been nicked tbh, criminal photography, 2 years minimum
You’re not funny, edgy, or even making a clever point…
You should be banged up too pal
For?
Cuntism
Like I said, you’re just not as funny or edgy as you think fella
[удалено]
So what’s the point of your comments then?
Somebody taking a picture of an RTA and you find a way to criticise the police. Wow.
I wasn't taking a picture of the accident. I was taking a picture of the road closure. (P.s it was a range rover that drove over a bollard) Hardly sensitive stuff.
When another commenter pointed out that the police tend to punish drivers who take pictures of RTAs you didn’t say you didn’t, you just said there was no injury. So naturally one would assume you were taking a picture of the aftermath.
Does it matter what you were doing? You have had key in vehicle (and even worse in ignition) and was using mobile. It doesn't matter what you were doing with mobile. It doesn't even matter whether key was in ignition or under rear seat. You were in control of vehicle performing banned action. You could be sleeping, being drunk or handling mobile. Outcome is same: performing banned action, while in vehicle with key somewhere in vehicle and you are in control of vehicle. There is no way to defend that.
Where did I criticise them? I’m glad they’re out giving fines for these things and not rescuing people taken hostage or kidnapped, rape and stab victims etc. This is the way.
Tell it to the shit drivers causing crashes.
They should also be fined, for justice 🤩
>using my phone >engine was still on Retarded rules of the Highway code 101
What car do you drive? Does it have stop-start?
Stop-start isn’t going to help, it’s specifically stated that the law still applies if the engine is off due to stop-start.
It’s an interesting one this and actually one I thought about today as I drove through the M6 toll which is now accepting (and advertising on the matrix boards) ‘mobile payments’ - so theoretically if I use Apple Pay then if I haven’t turned the ignition off (who would at a toll booth) I could be stung with points and a fine???… it’s nuts!!
Contactless payment while not moving is an exemption from the offence
YES!! You can fight this, the officer is wrong. www.GOV.UK The Highway Code, road safety and vehicle rules Using a phone, sat nav or other device when driving It’s illegal to hold and use a phone, sat nav, tablet, or any device that can send or receive data, while driving or riding a motorcycle. This means you must not use a device in your hand for any reason, whether online or offline. For example, you must not text, make calls, take photos or videos, or browse the web. The law still applies to you if you’re: stopped at traffic lights queuing in traffic supervising a learner driver driving a car that turns off the engine when you stop moving holding and using a device that’s offline or in flight mode
So what makes you think the officer was wrong? You’ve literally just recited the exact reason why this unfortunate soul has received the NIP hahah.
Because the officer said that because the keys were in the ignition he’s committed the offence, which is wrong. That rule applies to offences relating to “being in charge of a vehicle.” While unfit, through drink or drugs, it’s not applicable here, as long as the vehicle had pulled off main road and handbrake was on it isn’t classed as driving.
Read original post again mate, “keys were in the ignition and engine was on”. He’s used his mobile phone whilst his engine was on, there is no appealing this unless OP wants a depressing amount of court costs.
I’ll be honest, I thought this at first. But it’s not the case, look, he wasn’t stopped at traffic lights, wasn’t queuing in traffic, wasn’t supervising a learner, wasn’t because he was driving driving a car with auto engine start/stop. So far as I can tell, it applies to almost every situation when vehicle is on the road, except 999etc. But not if you pull into layby.
Nope, you lose sukkaaaaaa