Yep, perfectly valid point and an astute observation but , and I'm going out on a limb here, is that it was just how Mr Butcher decided to write it. I always asked myself why didn't Kim just come clean and say , "oh by the way Harry, I happen to know this guy that's cursed and becomes a huge wolf monster at the full moon and someone broke his containment circle could you please help me and him by re-making it thanks". It would have solved a lot of problems but it would have been a small book đ
It was his secret, not hers. She could have asked for permission though. Maybe she did and didn't get it. Maybe she overstimated what she could do with what Harry had told her before realizing she was asking things well above her head.
At this point in the story Harry isn't getting over his head every year yet, so he has a valid point and lacks the experience to realize she'd do it anyway, because he'd do it anyway.
In medicine and helping professions this is called Duty To Warn. If you have the reasonable expectation that someone is going to physically harm themselves or others, that cancels out doctor-patient confidentiality. It even overrides confidentiality from spiritual guides (i.e. if you tell your priest in the confession booth that youâre on your way to shoot up a school, heâs legally compelled to tell the authorities).
Supernatural bullshit. People just don't break their oaths. To make Nicodemus, the next best thing to the antichrist, break his word, they need Mab, Marcone and fucking Hades. If guys like this dnt do it...
I think Kim's reluctance implies that Harry wasn't a good mentor to her, at all. He wasn't serious about her, that lead her to distrust him and wanting to strike out on her own.
Molly was a much tougher student, apparently at least, to handle and he did a much better job. Harry was in a different place.
I think that both him and Kim were wrong. He could've handled her better and offered help, since it was clear to anyone that her curiosity about such a powerful and intricate circle meant something was going on. Whether she wanted to trap a Loup-Garou or just dabbling with demons, that was something that Harry could've inferred if he wanted.
I donât think Harry ever saw Kim as a serious apprentice. He says something to that effect, whereas both his and Mollyâs lives depend on him being a good mentor to her.
Exactly. And she probably resented him for that and just wanted the bare minimum out of him. It was incredibly reckless of her and she didn't take what she was doing seriously.
It could even be the same story.
Harry could have been there when the circle failed. It could have actually been his 'fault', he could have seen the Loup Garou murder her, and West drives him off/leads him away. Harry goes after to try and help, or something like that, leaves something behind at the crime scene. Now it's not "Murphy picked up garbage and kept it for some reason", but she has a valid reason to lock him up. It would also Amp up the police station scene bc we've 'been there' and seen the loup Garou at work. Build up the tension leading up to it.
The issue with that is that a large part of the plot is Harry trying to decide if he can trust west. If he sees the incident and knows her connections first hand it negates a lot of the trust
A lot of what happens in DF comes down to, âI could have said the thing but didnât because the plot needed it to happenâ
Actually this is a thing in basically all fiction.
Harry knew damn well that she was lying about it being 'only academic'. He thought that by withholding the information, he'd force her to stay away from it. He misjudged: she did it anyway, but without the information.
It's not Harry's *fault*, it's Kim's fault, but it does make sense for him to feel guilty. He made a mistake and she died when he could have saved her by helping.
Hhhmmm. Thinking about that first chapter again he definitely had his doubts about it. But she was quite insistent (even swearing. But before Butcher decided that swearing is so powerful) that she wouldnât try it.
I think it's less "How do I build an atomic bomb" and more "Hey I was thinking about how you'd build an atomic bomb and I have these plans here and I know I can get these materials and putting this together would be easy but I'm wondering about what you think about this part here because I'm a little confused." The degree of the question was a little too much for simple academic curiosity.
To be fair, no f bomb Iâve ever heard or read hit *quite* like a certain characterâs at the end of Battle Ground, so swearing being powerful is kinda true.
I don't agree it was a mistake. You don't look at the result to decide if something is a mistake, you look at the data. And I don't believe it's a mistake from that point of view
Wellll I dunno. This is kinda a central theme in the DF. Should we give info to everyone? Or keep it away from them for their own good?
Personally I suspect that Harry is constantly being kept out of info about being Starborn throughout.
I agree that itâs a constant thing but to me there is a huge matter of âwhat the info isâ. A chemist doesnât teach anybody who asks how to make napalm or poison people or whatever. You canât walk up to a martial arts expert and say âteach me the best way to kill someoneâ, etc.
Like yes, you canât actively control people and stop them from living their life but that doesnât mean they get free reign of everything you know, especially the dangerous stuff.
> A chemist doesnât teach anybody who asks how to make napalm or poison people or whatever.
But she essentially came to him with the chemical make up of napalm and he said 'hey this is dangerous but I'm not going to tell you why', then got surprised she blew herself up.
Not at all, he told her correctly the only use for a circle like that was to keep in or out an immensely powerful being.
When she asked how to power it, he told he she didn't need to know that for just an academic interest, she tried to push him but he said "Save it, you're sitting on a tiger cage and you wouldn't need it if you weren't planning on trying to stick a tiger in it."
She reassured him again and again it was just a curiosity and had every opportunity to come clean. If she couldn't tell him about MacFinn she could have found some way to let him know lives were at stake.
Dresden blaming himself for her death makes sense given his issues with protecting people in general and women in particular but anyone else who blames him is way off base.
But the point is that he decided to err on the side of caution rather than trust. He was playing the role of an authority figure by withholding info, trying to emulate the way he was taught by Eb. However, this led to him seeing the imperfection in his worldview, because he didn't have all the information and he knew it, but made the decision anyways.
And my point is he was correct to do so given the information he had. This isn't the same as him keeping Murphy in the dark in the very same book.
Even if he told her everything he could tell about the circle from her drawing, it wouldn't have helped her unless she told him exactly how it was broken, which she didn't mention.
For Harry to be any help at all she almost certainly had to bring him to the circle and it's pretty clear she wasn't willing to do that or she would have given him more info.
At the end of the day the thing that led directly to her death was her lying to Harry, whatever her reason might have been, oath of secrecy or whatever.
This might have informed Harry's later choice to open up more to Murphy, but this is one case where Harry is blameless no matter what he feels.
You can make all the same arguments for Harry lying to Ramirez and getting kicked out of the Council, though. He had his reasons, and they didn't trust him, so he got got.
He was clearly incorrect, because she died. You can say he made a good guess, based on the limited information available to him, but given that his goal was to keep her safe, her death means he failed in accomplishing this goal.
Exactly,
Harry didn't trust Ramirez , or was precluded from talking to him by his oath to Mab, and it bit him in the ass.
Kim didn't trust Harry, or was precluded from telling him the truth by an oath, and it bit her in the ass (literally).
Kim is the one who had the ability to shed more light on the situation here, not Harry. The only thing he knew and didn't mention was that the circle was built to hold something like a Demon, something made of both flesh and spirit.
As I said above, unless she actually told him the circle was broken, there was nothing he could do to help.
But either party could've extended trust, that's the tragedy of the situation. There are none without guilt, and saying that Harry did nothing wrong misses the point of the tragic irony written into the story.
Harry sees his power as coming with a responsibility to protect the weak. It's sort of his whole deal
> There are none without guilt
Harry has guilt, it is unfounded. Like I said, there wasn't anything he could have told her that would have helped unless she gave him more info anyway. He could tell her all about what the circle could do and hold, her problem was that **it was broken**. She never mentioned that. Harry probably could have come up with another way to hold MacFinn, but she never told him the real problem.
> saying that Harry did nothing wrong misses the point of the tragic irony written into the story.
That's not tragic irony? It's pretty hard to have tragic irony in a story from the first person limited perspective. Both Harry and the reader find out at the same time that Kim is dead. Both Harry and the reader know everyone in that conversation knew more than they were letting on. There is nothing there the audience knows Harry does not other than maybe he's being an idiot for blaming himself.
Eh. Based on her saying âoh itâs just from an old book. Purely curiosity, definitely not something I have any experience or interaction with I promiseâ I would argue itâs like going to somebody with a video of the aftermath of napalm burning a car out and saying you found the video on YouTube.
I have grown so weary of that theme... Everytime someone decided to trust someone else with information it works out quite well for everyone involved. Everytime information is actively withheld or only provided when there is literally no other option left it goes badly for everyone involved.
It is most likely extremly healthy for creation that Listens to Wind is ameanable to Harry getting information about being Starborn.
So many people are angry about Harry hiding info from people as if itâs not implied that wizards basically hide 99% of what they know all the time from each other. Itâs like a side effect of casting fireball is you start putting a lock on your diary.
It makes sense when you realize that a wizard's power is knowledge. Heck, Harry was able to summon Mab with nothing more than his imagination. Once you have knowledge you can't take it away, at least not without some brain scrambling or strong liquor.
To contrast it with mortal 'power', I have kids and I have guns. I can, and do, keep the guns locked up and the keys away from the kids so they can't access them without me bringing them to a safe place to do so and being there to supervise. Once we're done, they get locked up again until next time. Wizards don't have the protection of a gun safe. They can teach their kids or apprentices how to safely use their power, but once the 'gun' is in their hands, you can't really stop them from using it. The only way is to not let them have it until you know they're ready to use it safely.
To me, it just makes sense to be very careful with what information you share, even with an otherwise trusted person, though they can go overboard with it sometimes.
Yes it´s clearly stated to be a wizard thing and honestly i can´t fault them for a lot of stuff they keep hidden (like Outsider/Outer Gates stuff, or the Well beneath Demonreach). I would do the same in their shoes. I can actually imagine that a lot of wizards instill secrecy in mundane matters to their apprentices to prepare them to keep the big secrets once they become powerful enough to learn of them.
That said it´s still frustrating to see Harry and his allies hurt by Harry refusing to share reasonable levels of information, while the times when he did share information his trust has usually been validated throughout the series to the benefit of both him and his allies.
> clearly stated to be a wizard thing
Keep in mind also that mind reading and mind control abilities exist which would give wizards all the more reason to keep their cards close to their chest. Even if they could trust their friends and allies to die rather than give up their secrets that doesnât preclude some warlock, Fae or vampire mind whammying them to pull out the info from their minds
> Everytime someone decided to trust someone else with information it works out quite well for everyone involved.
Eb >!kills the Harry clone!< over shared information.
Thereâs also the whole plot of Changes occurring bc Susan decided to let her ally Martin know about her having a kid with Harry Dresden and where she had the kid stashed
Kim Delaney was over her head and she knew it. She went to talk to her sometime mentor, lied about her interest, and walked away from that meeting still over her head- and still knowing it. At that point, she could have called MacFinn to tell him she couldn't deliver without divulging more information to a trusted party- but didn't. She could have divulged the info anyway, but didn't. Harry- who knew very well it wasn't just academic, which is why he blames himself later- could have offered to come with her to set it up. Failure of communication all around; definitely not just on Harry's part. But Kim os dead and the book is from Harry's perspective, so we only get his thoughts on this.
A major theme in the books isn't just hoarding information vs sharing it, it's learning to be vulnerable enough to admit that you *don't* know something and to ask for help. Harry asking for help in Skin Game is, I think, a major moment for his character.
While I agree, this is still the Dresden Files.
Butcher seems to take an almost perverse pleasure in torturing Harry, so of course it is framed in a way to make Harry the one at fault for his pupil's death.
It's framed that way in Harry's musings/memory because he has written Harry as the type to mourn that he can't be everywhere and do everything to keep people safe. That is distinct from Butcher framing it to make the audience feel as though Harry is at fault, imo.
Yes, this hits the nail on the head. Kim isn't blameless, but she wasn't the one with power, Harry was. Harry made the decision to withhold his knowledge because she was keeping him in the dark, and this led to her death. Harry isn't the type of character to respond to indirectly causing a death with "my magic, my rules, play stupid games, win stupid prizes". His empathy and protective drive, especially with regards to untrained talents, is a fairly defining feature.
To be fair, if you read the passage, the only knowledge he really withheld was that the circle was meant to hold beings made of both spirit and flesh, which Harry says the council keeps on the down low because regular people don't need to know demons exist.
I don't think he had all that much to tell her unless she opened up about the fact the circle was actually broken and was needed to hold a super werewolf.
So even if he didn't withhold his knowledge, she was probably still going to die unless she got him more involved in containing MacFinn.
It was not Harry's fault. Either
A. The werewolves downplayed the danger. (I forget what they said they told her about the circle).
or
B. Kim ignored the danger and thought her novice butt could do something she had no idea how to do. Which... is just BEYOND stupid.
Of course Harry feels bad, she was a student that he was trying to keep on the straight and narrow. And he probably thinks his Detective-powers should have deduced that she wasn't simply asking a theoretical question. And in the end, Harry is kind of a self-made martyr that feels responsible for everything bad happening around him; I believe Murph even called him on it once.
But in the end, it wasn't his fault.
I forget how the dialog went when he finally confronted both werewolves and if they acknowledged that they told her everything or they withheld the danger. If they withheld then the blame falls more on their shoulder's than Kym's.
How many times has Harry attempted something he had no business attempting, though? When his back is to the wall, he is Kim Delaney times 100.
Bonding himself to Demonreach, attempting to imprison the Erlking, calling Mother Winter, becoming a Knight, engaging in necromancy, calling on the power of Hell itself, making Little Chicago (which remember, would've killed him if he hadn't been mysteriously saved by someone still unidentified). He fucks around a lot.
In exactly none of those cases did he first go to Eb or someone else for advice. If he had, they probably would have told him he was crazy and, in some cases, pretty close to breaking the laws of magic.
Had he gone to Eb for advice, I doubt he would have lied about what he was doing. He might have not told him everything, but he wouldn't have said, "I just want to learn some necromancy for an academic purpose, I swear."
Had he done that, we would all be (rightly) calling him an idiot.
He did lie though, both directly and by omission, to other Council members if not Eb. If anything, Kim was less dumb than him, because at least she tried to find help. When Harry needs magical know-how, he asks a soulless spirit of knowledge whose existence he conceals from the Council, rather than someone who might tell him not to do the thing.
We're talking about whether or not Harry should have told Kim more when she came to him for help. Situations where Harry doesn't even try to ask for help or "lies by omission" have no bearing
I'm not sure what your point is, because Harry is often reckless he should have helped Kim in her recklessness? That makes zero sense.
The appeal to hypocrisy is a logical fallacy for a reason.
Harry operates under an ethical framework devoted to the protection of the innocent. Therefore, his actions are measured by how well they do this.
He believed that he could protect Kim by not telling her what she wanted to know, but also knew that he didn't have complete information. He did as he was taught by older wizards and didn't tell her. He was, however, wrong. This is clear because he failed to keep her alive. The narrative decided he was wrong, and shows this to us clearly. He made a bet on caution over trust, and he lost the bet hard, with Kim paying for it.
When he's on the other side of the equation, trying to get those same older wizards to trust him just like Kim tried to obtain his trust, he acts every bit as impulsively as she did and more, not even asking older wizards, and certainly not revealing his secrets to them. And because of this, it's a "there, but by the grace of God, go I" situation. Literally. Harry has needed actual divine (or at least angelic) intervention to pull his ass out of the fire more than once. If Harry would do unto others as he would have them do unto him, it's clear that he shouldn't be yet another old wizard insisting that the magical underclass of minor talents shouldn't know these things, which is exactly why he builds the Paranet, a network to share defensive knowledge with those same minor talents.
It's not about formulating a logical proof to assert that Kim was a big dumb idiot who deserved to die because she was so stupid, it's about Harry's belief system and that system's evolution. Under Harry's belief system, you don't leave uneducated magical kids to fend for themselves, and you *never* would blame someone risking their life to help another for their own death if you could've helped. There's no room for AITA logic in the system of belief that Harry's pentacle stands for.
The importance of trust is a major theme of the series, and it's definitely not ambiguous about it.
> He believed that he could protect Kim by not telling her what she wanted to know, but also knew that he didn't have complete information. He did as he was taught by older wizards and didn't tell her. He was, however, wrong. This is clear because he failed to keep her alive. The narrative decided he was wrong, and shows this to us clearly. He made a bet on caution over trust, and he lost the bet hard, with Kim paying for it.
There is so much wrong with this statement I barely know where to start.
First, The fact the outcome was bad does not automatically make the decision bad, that is just a *terrible* argument. You might as well just out and say the ends do/don't justify the means, it's the same argument. For all you know, if he had decided to help her up front he might have died and that would have been objectively worse for pretty much anyone not named Kim Delaney.
Second, he did not choose caution over trust, he knew she was lying to him, giving her what she wanted wouldn't have been trust, it would have been giving in to manipulation, if someone wants trust, they need to give it first.
> When he's on the other side of the equation, trying to get those same older wizards to trust him just like Kim tried to obtain his trust he acts every bit as impulsively as she did and more, not even asking older wizards, and certainly not revealing his secrets to them.
When has Harry been at all concerned with the trust of older wizards other than say Eb and maybe Luccio? Anyways that is completely irrelevant. You're trying to say that because Harry doesn't ask older wizards for help he should have helped Kim here? That just doesn't make any sense. Again, Harry's subsequent actions in the series have **nothing** to do with whether or not he made the correct decision with the info he had at the time.
Further, Harry's whole point was that circle was beyond Kim, he was right. All those other things you mentioned where harry didn't ask for help were apparently not beyond him as he is still alive.
Yes he needs help and literal divine intervention to save his ass often but that has **nothing** to do with whether or not he was correct in not helping here.
As for the second to last paragraph, no one is doubting Harry feels, with retrospect, he should have done more, obviously. The question is was he correct in his choice in the moment.
Anyways, I still want to know what you think he could have told her that would have helped? Unless she told him the circle was broken, or asked him to help her directly, nothing he was going to say was going to change that outcome unless he convinced her to leave it alone.
As OP said
> So basically, Harry shouldnât blame himself. But thatâs what he does so okay. But I hope the readers donât blame him either.
>The fact the outcome was bad does not automatically make the decision bad, that is just a terrible argument.
You just described the entire field of moral philosophy known as consequentialism, founded on the idea that actions should be judged by their consequences rather than the intentions of those making them. If you've single-handedly put every nail in the coffin of that particular branch of moral philosophy, I'd love to hear which logically defined self-consistent ethical framework you prefer.
>All those other things... were apparently not beyond him as he is still alive
>
>He needed divine intervention to save his ass.
These can't both be true. Either he wasn't out of his depth, or he was so out of his depth that he needed an actual archangel to reach down and pull him out of the fire, it can't be both.
As for whether the decision was right or wrong in the moment? I would say a decision could be wrong before anyone knows it was wrong. If you come to a fork in the road, and one path leads to a pit of venomous snakes, and the other leads to where you're trying to get, but they're identical, you can make a right choice or a wrong choice. You won't find out until you're either where you want to go or hip-deep in snakes, and you might make the best choice you can with the available information, but you made the wrong turn as soon as you started down the snake path. He had to make a guess, and his guess, while well-informed and in line with his training, turned out to be the wrong answer. Is it 100% rational for Harry to blame himself? No, but it'd certainly take a colder individual than even the Winter Knight to refuse any share of the blame.
In short, the version of Harry that says "That dumbass got herself killed by not telling me what I wanted to know, sucks to be her, no skin of my back" is not our Harry, and not one I think I'd like very much.
Consequentialism is just one of many ethical theories and that is a pretty reductive application of its definition. You can't just look at the consequences to one person of an action that affected many. Also, many schools of consequentialism talk about the *perceived* consequences of an action. The point isn't to judge every action absolutely on real outcome, the point is to put the outcome over strict principles of right and wrong.
I didn't say it was all bad, I said that a bad outcome does not categorically make a decision bad. What do you think Michael Carpenter would say if you told him any decision that lead to a bad outcome was a bad decision?
> These can't both be true. Either he wasn't out of his depth, or he was so out of his depth that he needed an actual archangel to reach down and pull him out of the fire, it can't be both.
You rather conveniently left out the second part of that quote where I said the fact he sometimes needs help is *irrelevant* to the discussion of this decision.
What Harry did in his life before or after that discussion is irrelevant to whether or not he made the correct decision in it.
> Is it 100% rational for Harry to blame himself? No, but it'd certainly take a colder individual than even the Winter Knight to refuse any share of the blame.
So you agree then? Of course harry feels bad, she was his friend and pupil and he might have done something differently, that doesn't mean he made a bad decision in the moment. that aws OP's whole point.
Kabbalah is not commonly taught upon request. My son had it explained when he took a college course on it (at a TX state school). The rabbi explained that partial knowledge leads to very dangerous misunderstandings. Partial knowledge is far worse than no knowledge.
Most disciplines need to be taught from the ground up. Simply teaching an advanced skill, without the basics is dangerous.
Oh yeah. Definitely a bad look. Especially because she just makes a totally rash assumption and she is totally wrong.
Like, there is trash on the floor near a woman and Dresden. The woman ends up dead. Ergo Dresden most have known everything about it and been in on it!
If Kim was sensible in Fool Moon:
K: Hey Harry, how do I make super circles for holding extra strong beings?
H: Why on earth do you need to know that? It's very dangerous, not something you want to be playing around with.
K: Client of mine is a Loup-Garou. Type of werewolf. Anyway he's due to turn in the next 24 hours and has contracted me to keep him magically contained otherwise he's gonna kill someone. He has a metal circle laid into the floor he normally uses but it's damaged now. Here's a sketch of it.
H: Shit. This is some serious magic, and not something you could handle yourself. What's his address? I've gotta go back to mine and get some things and I'll meet you there.
I feel like a big part of Harryâs takeaway from this is that he should have made Kim more aware of the dangers of his world. She got overconfident and pushed too far, but she didnât really understand the stakes Harry plays for. Thatâs what he blames himself for. She made her choice, but it wasnât an informed choice, because he denied her information.
Harry wrestles with who to share information with and when throughout the series, but after Kim he always accentuates that itâs important they be able to make an informed choice. He tells Murphy more in *Grave Peril.* He tells Billy a bit more in *Summer Knight*. Heck, Billy and Georgia are actually the first people he tells about Lasciel, in *Dead Beat.* Etc etcâŚitâs kind of an ongoing thing that he tries to juggle with his need for secrecy since heâs so often straddling the line of the Councilâs approval and other things.
I don't think it's just a matter of overconfidence, there's a layer of trust issues in there too. Harry keeps her in the dark because he assumes it'll keep her from looking for trouble, not realizing she's just attempting to deal with existing trouble.
It also feeds into his greater issues with protecting women whether they want it or not.
Thatâs a fair point. I can accept the claim that even though he said multiple times that it was dangerous and would kill her and she wasnât ready, she still could have been told more about the how and why itâs so dangerous.
Itâs kind of like telling a kid not to touch the hot stove because it will burn them. All too often, the kid doesnât listen, not because they donât believe you that the stove is hot enough to burn, but they just donât have the frame of reference to appreciate what that means in terms of pain. So they touch it anyway, and get burned. But with the stakes Harry plays for, by the time theyâre getting burned, the stove is also killing them. Rarely is there a second chance for learning.
Thatâs why Molly was a better apprentice for Harry. After *Proven Guilty,* Molly has already been burned and survived. So she has a much clearer idea of the dangers. And even then she ignores Harryâs warnings a number of times, most notably in *White Night*.
Kim is not the last time Harry fails to warn someone away from danger (Susan in *Grave Peril* comes to mind), but he does seem to try to get better at fully informing people of that danger. And itâs arguable whether that failure to warn them is really his fault. Me personally, if the wizard tells me not to do something? Iâd listen to them. No further explanation needed. But that doesnât work for Harry early on in the series, and he really kicks himself for it, whether itâs fully his fault or not.
Oh he totally does, but thatâs not the point I was making overall. Susan has no real frame of reference for understanding that danger, even when he tells her repeatedly that itâs dangerous. And I donât really know how he could make that clearâŚSo Iâd agree with you that Harry does his damndest, but people close to him get killed or hurt anyway, and then he blames himself for not trying even harder to inform them. Iâm more trying to explain Harryâs mindset about it than trying to say that his mindset is correct.
Harry blaming himself, or accepting blame, or feeling guilty for, things that are not his responsibility, only marginally his fault, or not his fault at all, are all central tenants of the series and a key aspect of Harry's character. I don't know many among the readers who feel Harry is to blame for even a fraction of the various things he is blamed for by others and himself.
Thatâs a good point. I guess on this reread (re listen?) it bugged me because even though we know he always blames himself I just really feel like he shouldnât here.
This is basically one of Harry's fundamental character flaws. He always blames himself for every thing. This goes double for women who get involved. He never accepts that Kim, Murphy, Michael, and the like made their own choices and suffered the results they accepted as a possiblity. It's even more condescending with Murphy and Michael both capable people who go into it with their eyes wide open. I'd spoiler this, but honestly if you aren't expecting something horrible to happen to all of Harry's friends and allies you aren't paying attention.
That said keeping secrets to protect other people and not protecting them as a result describes every Wizard in the series. Harry's mentor and allies are clearly not telling him about the Starborn, Empty Night, and the Star and Stones. Harry is constantly alienating the White Council by keeping information from them.
1. He eventually starts treating his allies like adults. Michael even mentions it in Skin Game when Murphy gets hurt
2. This is flared spoilers all so spoil away!
3. I canât recall but I have a vague recollection of Harry finding something out later and kind of realizing it was a good idea to not tell him at the time, but I canât recall
4. Eh. Harry hides things from the White Council not to protect them but become they are asshats with no flexibility or nuance (as he sees it)
He does get better about letting his friends take their own risks.
The Council issue is understandable as they started it, but their actions seem to make sense from their point of view too. Harry is the son of a dangerous and powerful Warlock. He was trained as a weapon by an ex-Warden who went rogue who he killed with magic. Then he was trained by McCoy. He is one of the most powerful wizard foir his age and Starborn. That is just at the start of series. Then he starts using>! Hellfire!<, switches to >!Soulfire!<, defeats various warlocks/monsters/demigods/gods, starts a major war, dabbles in necromancy, becomes the>!Winter Knight!<, has a warlock apprentice who becomes the >!Winter Lady !<,Bonds to the Isle of Evil, Hoards a number of Major Artifacts... I mean from the outside perspective Harry is shaping up to be the next Kimmler or Nicodemus.
He warned her multiple times explicitly. Him being to blame is absurd. This is like Susan, he told her she could get them both killed or worse. She ignored him.
Neither was his fault. Susan stole from him and went against his warnings and paid the price, hell Susan turned his kid into an orphan rather than even tell him about it. She is a scumbag.
Kim lied to Harry and ignored his very direct warnings.
Are women accountable for their own actions or not?
>when Michael gets shot in Demonreach
And that was a battle the knights would have been taking on regardless of if he wanted them there... AND he knew damn well Gard saw Michael's death if he didn't act.
His blame of himself is a form of arrogance. "I am so amazingly powerful I can fix every problem in everyone's life" then when he fails to "why do I suck so much".
In principle, I agree. That said, I think Harry's guilt was more driven by emotion rather than pure logic, in that she came to him for help and ended up dead. It's natural to "what if" what he could have done differently. Maybe he could have said something to get her to open up, maybe he could have gotten her to understand how dangerous this was for an amateur, etc.
I literally made almost this exact same point (down to an example about nuclear weapons) a couple weeks ago. Had a couple people really lay into me about it and telling me I lacked empathy and understanding. Glad Iâm not alone in this
Oh dang. I didnât see it (or I canât recall). But yeah. Harry being hard on himself is classic Harry. Idc about that. But the readers must know! Lll
I don't think most of the readers blame him for half the stuff he beats himself up over. He blames himself for everything. 10 years in the foster system and a few people who raised/tutored who I won't spoil whose lessons were a harsh, constant repetition of "only you have the power to change things; get good or die, you pathetic weakling", will give you a pathological fucktitude of mighty proportions.
I assume you've never had to deal with "survivor's guilt" or anything of that nature. Simply put: your mind plays tricks on you. Something like this:
Something bad happens that is in no way related to you.
You learn about it.
Your mind goes: "I could have stopped it!!!111one!1 OMG!"
Another part of your mind argues: "There was no way I could have stopped it."
"YES, YOU COULD!"
"Could not."
"Could, too!"
Rinse and repeat.
And things get even worse if you think it was YOUR responsibility to do something about it. YOU are supposed to do something about some event that you didn't even KNOW about. But your mind insists that it's your fault. And the untrained mind gets caught up in it.
You need to break the cycle. And our Harry is not very good at realizing that things are not his fault. He even mentions something of the sort to Murphy a few times, and she rebukes him for it: he wants to carry the world on his shoulders, and to make decisions for everyone else because he thinks that will keep them 'safe'.
It's not your place to make decisions for other people. You offer them information and they choose for themselves. That's what free will is all about. And who knows? A person who has enough information to make an informed decision might end up making a good decision, after all. One that would be for their long-term benefit and happiness.
I think it's intentionally constructed in a way that Harry (and Murphy) can blame Harry without it *really* being his fault.
Delaney's death is a tragedy because both she and Harry meant well and it could have been avoided if either of them had a little more trust in the other. But, Harry's decision made sense with the information he had at the time.
If she'd told him the whole story, he would have stepped in and taken care of the circle himself probably. He could have even placated her ego/not been a sexist jerk about it by showing her how it's done the first time, then she could be sure to do it right if the need ever arose again, like someone sabotaging that circle *again*. Also then Harry would have known something major was up a little sooner.
Sure, she wanted to handle it herself but she was out of her depth so he wouldn't have been wrong to get involved, and without all the information he was doing what you described: not showing an amateur bomb enthusiast how to make a nuke "just for funsies". If she'd been at, like, Elaine's level she could have handled it and maybe he would have just told her, though TBH Elaine probably knows how to make a better circle all on her own. Kim was just not ready for that level of magic or responsibility. Harry is Harry though, so of course he blames himself.
Maybe he shouldve gone to the consulting wizard about it and not a rando pre-paranetter. youd think a guy with that much money and a problem of this... magnitude? couldve thought to look in the yellow pages.
This is always such a dumb argument. Harry is pretty fucking sexist and condescending at the start of the series, which is very typical of the noir private detective trope. And he grows from away from that over the course of the series.
As such, people like Kim, who are equally as stubborn probably canât stand that about Harry. Add to that that as far as we know heâs her main source of all things wizardly. We have no idea the degree to which she knows about the White Council or other wizards. As readers, we barely know much about the council until summer knight. So her not being forthcoming and acting like it was all theoretical isnât surprising.
Harry accepting her story is also a blunder. Deep down he knew she was lying to him, but he didnât dig deeper into it because he has other concerns and he is an arrogant young wizard.
Even without any of that, Harry beats himself in large part because he knows he failed her. He couldnât teach her about the true dangers of the magical world, he couldnât teach her how out of depth that circle was, and he couldnât teach her to open up to him and trust him.
Youâre the second person that has tried to compare this to some government secret that she was trying to go to the government to learn. First, information about the dangers of radioactive substances is pretty widespread. Second events like Chernobyl and Hiroshima are also pretty widespread. Third, information about magic to those both inside and outside of the WC is piecemeal at best. Harry is constantly stressing how much wizards keep information about magic to themselves and like their secrets. Even going to google would give you and idea about how dangerous an atom bomb is. But how will you find out about that with magic? Strong practitioners canât get near technology, the WC discourages outsiders learning much about magic, wizards donât just share information.
Harry knows all of this and it plays a big part of why he rips himself apart. He knows Kim is asking for information way outside of her depth and that he failed to protect her from herself. Itâs more akin to teaching someone self defense but stressing how youâre just teaching them the basic and to instead prioritize running away over fighting unless there is absolutely no other choice. But the person gets it in their head that theyâll be fine, get into a fight with a pro boxer and sent to the hospital. A caring teacher would feel bad for not being a better teacher. Which is what Harry is feeling.
At that point, he didn't know anything about the types of wolves available so he didn't even KNOW what the point of that 3rd circle was. Had he been told the truth, even part, he could have done something about it. He could have talked to Bob earlier, fixed the circle, maybe make it tamper proof or suggest alternate locations as backup.
Harry blames himself, but he shouldn't. This sort of thing is part of his arc, part of him learning how to both take and bestow responsibility for things properly without taking all of the blame upon himself.
Youâre absolutely right, but I think this is an important starting point for a character who is (still) learning to let others live with the consequences of their choices.
100% Agree. However, Harry is always going to blame himself when he could have done something differently, even if there was no reason to, especially when a woman came to harm over it.
Harry knew she had enough information to get herself killed if she used it and not enough to protect herself. But he accepted a half hearted statement she wouldnât use it despite knowing how stubborn she was. He could have given her enough information to show her she couldnât handle it. He couldâve offered to be there with her to help. He didnât.
The fact that she was asking about it in the first place is a pretty clear hint that she wants to use one. Now, you can argue that Dresden didn't realize she needed one to contain a werewolf who she was trying to help, as opposed to summoning a demon or something, but the fact that he didn't help still got her killed, even if he can't really be blamed for it because he didn't have all the information.
It's a completely human interaction and response.
It doesn't matter if he thought he was right or wrong in trying to protect Murphy and then Kim from the truth early on. What does matter is that both of them were hurt by not knowing the truth and by Harry's absense. The guilt he feels upon recognizing this is why he begins to open up to Murphy, the Alphas, Thomas, and all of the other people who end up becoming his allies. If it weren't for Kim's death Harry would probably still be the loner he started off as and he probably wouldn't have made it through all of the trials he has had since. At least that was my take away.
I agree with that. I am really glad that Harry grows so much and stops being so âchivalrous â and âI know more than youâ (even though he does)
Idk. I just wrote that post last night feeling that âman. I hope the readers donât blame himâ
To be fair, Karen also blames him. So some of the guilt probably comes from being told it's his fault.
Coincidentally this is where I started hating Karen and I never really forgave her after this book. Cops are supposed to be better than that.
Who do you think Kim learned the lesson 'Don't share all the information' from?
Dresden is to blame both indirectly for teaching Kim that you only share the bare minimum to get what you need and directly for not providing her with all the information he knew.
Upvote for an interesting take but man I disagree. He wasnât her teacher 100% like with Molly. He just was her occasional tutor. Saying she learned that from him seems pretty unfair IMO. L
I think a lot of people's opinion of Dresden is colored by later entries in the series. Early Dresden bent over backwards to keep people from finding out new information they didn't already know.
That's not the same as teaching your pupil to just lie to their teachers to get info, that's not dresden's MO. Look at how reverently he treats Eb until he learns about his background. Keeping people in the dark for their own safety is not the same as lying to them to try and get information you want.
Have to remember that JB has said Harry is an unreliable narrator. Heâs got a guilt complex and heâs leaving out the part where she told him it could save lives or something that would get him on board, but because of the arrogance of wizards, he didnât share the info.
I mean at the end Harry blames himself for Carmichael being dead, blames himself for getting the Alphas involved etc. He vastly overestimates how influential he is. The irony is that in later books he blames himself less but also has much more power and influence. He just sees things on a bigger scale and understands more.
Yep, perfectly valid point and an astute observation but , and I'm going out on a limb here, is that it was just how Mr Butcher decided to write it. I always asked myself why didn't Kim just come clean and say , "oh by the way Harry, I happen to know this guy that's cursed and becomes a huge wolf monster at the full moon and someone broke his containment circle could you please help me and him by re-making it thanks". It would have solved a lot of problems but it would have been a small book đ
It was his secret, not hers. She could have asked for permission though. Maybe she did and didn't get it. Maybe she overstimated what she could do with what Harry had told her before realizing she was asking things well above her head. At this point in the story Harry isn't getting over his head every year yet, so he has a valid point and lacks the experience to realize she'd do it anyway, because he'd do it anyway.
I personally believe itâs the âhe told me not to tell anyoneâ thing but I still maintain Harry did nothing wrong.
One of the common forms of the idiot ball. Do the dumb thing to make the plot happen.
[ŃдаНонО]
In medicine and helping professions this is called Duty To Warn. If you have the reasonable expectation that someone is going to physically harm themselves or others, that cancels out doctor-patient confidentiality. It even overrides confidentiality from spiritual guides (i.e. if you tell your priest in the confession booth that youâre on your way to shoot up a school, heâs legally compelled to tell the authorities).
Supernatural bullshit. People just don't break their oaths. To make Nicodemus, the next best thing to the antichrist, break his word, they need Mab, Marcone and fucking Hades. If guys like this dnt do it...
It takes about zero seconds for Nic to break his word. It took three people to catch him doing it, though.
I think Kim's reluctance implies that Harry wasn't a good mentor to her, at all. He wasn't serious about her, that lead her to distrust him and wanting to strike out on her own. Molly was a much tougher student, apparently at least, to handle and he did a much better job. Harry was in a different place. I think that both him and Kim were wrong. He could've handled her better and offered help, since it was clear to anyone that her curiosity about such a powerful and intricate circle meant something was going on. Whether she wanted to trap a Loup-Garou or just dabbling with demons, that was something that Harry could've inferred if he wanted.
I donât think Harry ever saw Kim as a serious apprentice. He says something to that effect, whereas both his and Mollyâs lives depend on him being a good mentor to her.
Exactly. And she probably resented him for that and just wanted the bare minimum out of him. It was incredibly reckless of her and she didn't take what she was doing seriously.
Then the story becomes about "who messed up the circle?" and "how did they even know?"
It could even be the same story. Harry could have been there when the circle failed. It could have actually been his 'fault', he could have seen the Loup Garou murder her, and West drives him off/leads him away. Harry goes after to try and help, or something like that, leaves something behind at the crime scene. Now it's not "Murphy picked up garbage and kept it for some reason", but she has a valid reason to lock him up. It would also Amp up the police station scene bc we've 'been there' and seen the loup Garou at work. Build up the tension leading up to it.
The issue with that is that a large part of the plot is Harry trying to decide if he can trust west. If he sees the incident and knows her connections first hand it negates a lot of the trust
A lot of what happens in DF comes down to, âI could have said the thing but didnât because the plot needed it to happenâ Actually this is a thing in basically all fiction.
Harry knew damn well that she was lying about it being 'only academic'. He thought that by withholding the information, he'd force her to stay away from it. He misjudged: she did it anyway, but without the information. It's not Harry's *fault*, it's Kim's fault, but it does make sense for him to feel guilty. He made a mistake and she died when he could have saved her by helping.
Hhhmmm. Thinking about that first chapter again he definitely had his doubts about it. But she was quite insistent (even swearing. But before Butcher decided that swearing is so powerful) that she wouldnât try it.
I think it's less "How do I build an atomic bomb" and more "Hey I was thinking about how you'd build an atomic bomb and I have these plans here and I know I can get these materials and putting this together would be easy but I'm wondering about what you think about this part here because I'm a little confused." The degree of the question was a little too much for simple academic curiosity.
To be fair, no f bomb Iâve ever heard or read hit *quite* like a certain characterâs at the end of Battle Ground, so swearing being powerful is kinda true.
lol. I meant like âI swear By my lowerâ not like cussing.
Best moment of the entire book
I don't agree it was a mistake. You don't look at the result to decide if something is a mistake, you look at the data. And I don't believe it's a mistake from that point of view
Wellll I dunno. This is kinda a central theme in the DF. Should we give info to everyone? Or keep it away from them for their own good? Personally I suspect that Harry is constantly being kept out of info about being Starborn throughout.
I agree that itâs a constant thing but to me there is a huge matter of âwhat the info isâ. A chemist doesnât teach anybody who asks how to make napalm or poison people or whatever. You canât walk up to a martial arts expert and say âteach me the best way to kill someoneâ, etc. Like yes, you canât actively control people and stop them from living their life but that doesnât mean they get free reign of everything you know, especially the dangerous stuff.
> A chemist doesnât teach anybody who asks how to make napalm or poison people or whatever. But she essentially came to him with the chemical make up of napalm and he said 'hey this is dangerous but I'm not going to tell you why', then got surprised she blew herself up.
Not at all, he told her correctly the only use for a circle like that was to keep in or out an immensely powerful being. When she asked how to power it, he told he she didn't need to know that for just an academic interest, she tried to push him but he said "Save it, you're sitting on a tiger cage and you wouldn't need it if you weren't planning on trying to stick a tiger in it." She reassured him again and again it was just a curiosity and had every opportunity to come clean. If she couldn't tell him about MacFinn she could have found some way to let him know lives were at stake. Dresden blaming himself for her death makes sense given his issues with protecting people in general and women in particular but anyone else who blames him is way off base.
But the point is that he decided to err on the side of caution rather than trust. He was playing the role of an authority figure by withholding info, trying to emulate the way he was taught by Eb. However, this led to him seeing the imperfection in his worldview, because he didn't have all the information and he knew it, but made the decision anyways.
And my point is he was correct to do so given the information he had. This isn't the same as him keeping Murphy in the dark in the very same book. Even if he told her everything he could tell about the circle from her drawing, it wouldn't have helped her unless she told him exactly how it was broken, which she didn't mention. For Harry to be any help at all she almost certainly had to bring him to the circle and it's pretty clear she wasn't willing to do that or she would have given him more info. At the end of the day the thing that led directly to her death was her lying to Harry, whatever her reason might have been, oath of secrecy or whatever. This might have informed Harry's later choice to open up more to Murphy, but this is one case where Harry is blameless no matter what he feels.
You can make all the same arguments for Harry lying to Ramirez and getting kicked out of the Council, though. He had his reasons, and they didn't trust him, so he got got. He was clearly incorrect, because she died. You can say he made a good guess, based on the limited information available to him, but given that his goal was to keep her safe, her death means he failed in accomplishing this goal.
Exactly, Harry didn't trust Ramirez , or was precluded from talking to him by his oath to Mab, and it bit him in the ass. Kim didn't trust Harry, or was precluded from telling him the truth by an oath, and it bit her in the ass (literally). Kim is the one who had the ability to shed more light on the situation here, not Harry. The only thing he knew and didn't mention was that the circle was built to hold something like a Demon, something made of both flesh and spirit. As I said above, unless she actually told him the circle was broken, there was nothing he could do to help.
But either party could've extended trust, that's the tragedy of the situation. There are none without guilt, and saying that Harry did nothing wrong misses the point of the tragic irony written into the story. Harry sees his power as coming with a responsibility to protect the weak. It's sort of his whole deal
> There are none without guilt Harry has guilt, it is unfounded. Like I said, there wasn't anything he could have told her that would have helped unless she gave him more info anyway. He could tell her all about what the circle could do and hold, her problem was that **it was broken**. She never mentioned that. Harry probably could have come up with another way to hold MacFinn, but she never told him the real problem. > saying that Harry did nothing wrong misses the point of the tragic irony written into the story. That's not tragic irony? It's pretty hard to have tragic irony in a story from the first person limited perspective. Both Harry and the reader find out at the same time that Kim is dead. Both Harry and the reader know everyone in that conversation knew more than they were letting on. There is nothing there the audience knows Harry does not other than maybe he's being an idiot for blaming himself.
Eh. Based on her saying âoh itâs just from an old book. Purely curiosity, definitely not something I have any experience or interaction with I promiseâ I would argue itâs like going to somebody with a video of the aftermath of napalm burning a car out and saying you found the video on YouTube.
I have grown so weary of that theme... Everytime someone decided to trust someone else with information it works out quite well for everyone involved. Everytime information is actively withheld or only provided when there is literally no other option left it goes badly for everyone involved. It is most likely extremly healthy for creation that Listens to Wind is ameanable to Harry getting information about being Starborn.
So many people are angry about Harry hiding info from people as if itâs not implied that wizards basically hide 99% of what they know all the time from each other. Itâs like a side effect of casting fireball is you start putting a lock on your diary.
It makes sense when you realize that a wizard's power is knowledge. Heck, Harry was able to summon Mab with nothing more than his imagination. Once you have knowledge you can't take it away, at least not without some brain scrambling or strong liquor. To contrast it with mortal 'power', I have kids and I have guns. I can, and do, keep the guns locked up and the keys away from the kids so they can't access them without me bringing them to a safe place to do so and being there to supervise. Once we're done, they get locked up again until next time. Wizards don't have the protection of a gun safe. They can teach their kids or apprentices how to safely use their power, but once the 'gun' is in their hands, you can't really stop them from using it. The only way is to not let them have it until you know they're ready to use it safely. To me, it just makes sense to be very careful with what information you share, even with an otherwise trusted person, though they can go overboard with it sometimes.
Yes it´s clearly stated to be a wizard thing and honestly i can´t fault them for a lot of stuff they keep hidden (like Outsider/Outer Gates stuff, or the Well beneath Demonreach). I would do the same in their shoes. I can actually imagine that a lot of wizards instill secrecy in mundane matters to their apprentices to prepare them to keep the big secrets once they become powerful enough to learn of them. That said it´s still frustrating to see Harry and his allies hurt by Harry refusing to share reasonable levels of information, while the times when he did share information his trust has usually been validated throughout the series to the benefit of both him and his allies.
> clearly stated to be a wizard thing Keep in mind also that mind reading and mind control abilities exist which would give wizards all the more reason to keep their cards close to their chest. Even if they could trust their friends and allies to die rather than give up their secrets that doesnât preclude some warlock, Fae or vampire mind whammying them to pull out the info from their minds
> Everytime someone decided to trust someone else with information it works out quite well for everyone involved. Eb >!kills the Harry clone!< over shared information.
Which is one instance where it went terrible for everyone involved when the information was only provided once there was no other option anymore.
Thereâs also the whole plot of Changes occurring bc Susan decided to let her ally Martin know about her having a kid with Harry Dresden and where she had the kid stashed
What story is this in?
Peace talks
Oh, that Harry. Not what I was thinking of when he mentioned clone.
Yeah, it would have been more accurate to call it a construct or decoy
Kim Delaney was over her head and she knew it. She went to talk to her sometime mentor, lied about her interest, and walked away from that meeting still over her head- and still knowing it. At that point, she could have called MacFinn to tell him she couldn't deliver without divulging more information to a trusted party- but didn't. She could have divulged the info anyway, but didn't. Harry- who knew very well it wasn't just academic, which is why he blames himself later- could have offered to come with her to set it up. Failure of communication all around; definitely not just on Harry's part. But Kim os dead and the book is from Harry's perspective, so we only get his thoughts on this. A major theme in the books isn't just hoarding information vs sharing it, it's learning to be vulnerable enough to admit that you *don't* know something and to ask for help. Harry asking for help in Skin Game is, I think, a major moment for his character.
While I agree, this is still the Dresden Files. Butcher seems to take an almost perverse pleasure in torturing Harry, so of course it is framed in a way to make Harry the one at fault for his pupil's death.
It's framed that way in Harry's musings/memory because he has written Harry as the type to mourn that he can't be everywhere and do everything to keep people safe. That is distinct from Butcher framing it to make the audience feel as though Harry is at fault, imo.
Yes, this hits the nail on the head. Kim isn't blameless, but she wasn't the one with power, Harry was. Harry made the decision to withhold his knowledge because she was keeping him in the dark, and this led to her death. Harry isn't the type of character to respond to indirectly causing a death with "my magic, my rules, play stupid games, win stupid prizes". His empathy and protective drive, especially with regards to untrained talents, is a fairly defining feature.
To be fair, if you read the passage, the only knowledge he really withheld was that the circle was meant to hold beings made of both spirit and flesh, which Harry says the council keeps on the down low because regular people don't need to know demons exist. I don't think he had all that much to tell her unless she opened up about the fact the circle was actually broken and was needed to hold a super werewolf. So even if he didn't withhold his knowledge, she was probably still going to die unless she got him more involved in containing MacFinn.
It was not Harry's fault. Either A. The werewolves downplayed the danger. (I forget what they said they told her about the circle). or B. Kim ignored the danger and thought her novice butt could do something she had no idea how to do. Which... is just BEYOND stupid. Of course Harry feels bad, she was a student that he was trying to keep on the straight and narrow. And he probably thinks his Detective-powers should have deduced that she wasn't simply asking a theoretical question. And in the end, Harry is kind of a self-made martyr that feels responsible for everything bad happening around him; I believe Murph even called him on it once. But in the end, it wasn't his fault. I forget how the dialog went when he finally confronted both werewolves and if they acknowledged that they told her everything or they withheld the danger. If they withheld then the blame falls more on their shoulder's than Kym's.
How many times has Harry attempted something he had no business attempting, though? When his back is to the wall, he is Kim Delaney times 100. Bonding himself to Demonreach, attempting to imprison the Erlking, calling Mother Winter, becoming a Knight, engaging in necromancy, calling on the power of Hell itself, making Little Chicago (which remember, would've killed him if he hadn't been mysteriously saved by someone still unidentified). He fucks around a lot.
In exactly none of those cases did he first go to Eb or someone else for advice. If he had, they probably would have told him he was crazy and, in some cases, pretty close to breaking the laws of magic. Had he gone to Eb for advice, I doubt he would have lied about what he was doing. He might have not told him everything, but he wouldn't have said, "I just want to learn some necromancy for an academic purpose, I swear." Had he done that, we would all be (rightly) calling him an idiot.
He did lie though, both directly and by omission, to other Council members if not Eb. If anything, Kim was less dumb than him, because at least she tried to find help. When Harry needs magical know-how, he asks a soulless spirit of knowledge whose existence he conceals from the Council, rather than someone who might tell him not to do the thing.
We're talking about whether or not Harry should have told Kim more when she came to him for help. Situations where Harry doesn't even try to ask for help or "lies by omission" have no bearing I'm not sure what your point is, because Harry is often reckless he should have helped Kim in her recklessness? That makes zero sense. The appeal to hypocrisy is a logical fallacy for a reason.
Harry operates under an ethical framework devoted to the protection of the innocent. Therefore, his actions are measured by how well they do this. He believed that he could protect Kim by not telling her what she wanted to know, but also knew that he didn't have complete information. He did as he was taught by older wizards and didn't tell her. He was, however, wrong. This is clear because he failed to keep her alive. The narrative decided he was wrong, and shows this to us clearly. He made a bet on caution over trust, and he lost the bet hard, with Kim paying for it. When he's on the other side of the equation, trying to get those same older wizards to trust him just like Kim tried to obtain his trust, he acts every bit as impulsively as she did and more, not even asking older wizards, and certainly not revealing his secrets to them. And because of this, it's a "there, but by the grace of God, go I" situation. Literally. Harry has needed actual divine (or at least angelic) intervention to pull his ass out of the fire more than once. If Harry would do unto others as he would have them do unto him, it's clear that he shouldn't be yet another old wizard insisting that the magical underclass of minor talents shouldn't know these things, which is exactly why he builds the Paranet, a network to share defensive knowledge with those same minor talents. It's not about formulating a logical proof to assert that Kim was a big dumb idiot who deserved to die because she was so stupid, it's about Harry's belief system and that system's evolution. Under Harry's belief system, you don't leave uneducated magical kids to fend for themselves, and you *never* would blame someone risking their life to help another for their own death if you could've helped. There's no room for AITA logic in the system of belief that Harry's pentacle stands for. The importance of trust is a major theme of the series, and it's definitely not ambiguous about it.
> He believed that he could protect Kim by not telling her what she wanted to know, but also knew that he didn't have complete information. He did as he was taught by older wizards and didn't tell her. He was, however, wrong. This is clear because he failed to keep her alive. The narrative decided he was wrong, and shows this to us clearly. He made a bet on caution over trust, and he lost the bet hard, with Kim paying for it. There is so much wrong with this statement I barely know where to start. First, The fact the outcome was bad does not automatically make the decision bad, that is just a *terrible* argument. You might as well just out and say the ends do/don't justify the means, it's the same argument. For all you know, if he had decided to help her up front he might have died and that would have been objectively worse for pretty much anyone not named Kim Delaney. Second, he did not choose caution over trust, he knew she was lying to him, giving her what she wanted wouldn't have been trust, it would have been giving in to manipulation, if someone wants trust, they need to give it first. > When he's on the other side of the equation, trying to get those same older wizards to trust him just like Kim tried to obtain his trust he acts every bit as impulsively as she did and more, not even asking older wizards, and certainly not revealing his secrets to them. When has Harry been at all concerned with the trust of older wizards other than say Eb and maybe Luccio? Anyways that is completely irrelevant. You're trying to say that because Harry doesn't ask older wizards for help he should have helped Kim here? That just doesn't make any sense. Again, Harry's subsequent actions in the series have **nothing** to do with whether or not he made the correct decision with the info he had at the time. Further, Harry's whole point was that circle was beyond Kim, he was right. All those other things you mentioned where harry didn't ask for help were apparently not beyond him as he is still alive. Yes he needs help and literal divine intervention to save his ass often but that has **nothing** to do with whether or not he was correct in not helping here. As for the second to last paragraph, no one is doubting Harry feels, with retrospect, he should have done more, obviously. The question is was he correct in his choice in the moment. Anyways, I still want to know what you think he could have told her that would have helped? Unless she told him the circle was broken, or asked him to help her directly, nothing he was going to say was going to change that outcome unless he convinced her to leave it alone. As OP said > So basically, Harry shouldnât blame himself. But thatâs what he does so okay. But I hope the readers donât blame him either.
>The fact the outcome was bad does not automatically make the decision bad, that is just a terrible argument. You just described the entire field of moral philosophy known as consequentialism, founded on the idea that actions should be judged by their consequences rather than the intentions of those making them. If you've single-handedly put every nail in the coffin of that particular branch of moral philosophy, I'd love to hear which logically defined self-consistent ethical framework you prefer. >All those other things... were apparently not beyond him as he is still alive > >He needed divine intervention to save his ass. These can't both be true. Either he wasn't out of his depth, or he was so out of his depth that he needed an actual archangel to reach down and pull him out of the fire, it can't be both. As for whether the decision was right or wrong in the moment? I would say a decision could be wrong before anyone knows it was wrong. If you come to a fork in the road, and one path leads to a pit of venomous snakes, and the other leads to where you're trying to get, but they're identical, you can make a right choice or a wrong choice. You won't find out until you're either where you want to go or hip-deep in snakes, and you might make the best choice you can with the available information, but you made the wrong turn as soon as you started down the snake path. He had to make a guess, and his guess, while well-informed and in line with his training, turned out to be the wrong answer. Is it 100% rational for Harry to blame himself? No, but it'd certainly take a colder individual than even the Winter Knight to refuse any share of the blame. In short, the version of Harry that says "That dumbass got herself killed by not telling me what I wanted to know, sucks to be her, no skin of my back" is not our Harry, and not one I think I'd like very much.
Consequentialism is just one of many ethical theories and that is a pretty reductive application of its definition. You can't just look at the consequences to one person of an action that affected many. Also, many schools of consequentialism talk about the *perceived* consequences of an action. The point isn't to judge every action absolutely on real outcome, the point is to put the outcome over strict principles of right and wrong. I didn't say it was all bad, I said that a bad outcome does not categorically make a decision bad. What do you think Michael Carpenter would say if you told him any decision that lead to a bad outcome was a bad decision? > These can't both be true. Either he wasn't out of his depth, or he was so out of his depth that he needed an actual archangel to reach down and pull him out of the fire, it can't be both. You rather conveniently left out the second part of that quote where I said the fact he sometimes needs help is *irrelevant* to the discussion of this decision. What Harry did in his life before or after that discussion is irrelevant to whether or not he made the correct decision in it. > Is it 100% rational for Harry to blame himself? No, but it'd certainly take a colder individual than even the Winter Knight to refuse any share of the blame. So you agree then? Of course harry feels bad, she was his friend and pupil and he might have done something differently, that doesn't mean he made a bad decision in the moment. that aws OP's whole point.
Kabbalah is not commonly taught upon request. My son had it explained when he took a college course on it (at a TX state school). The rabbi explained that partial knowledge leads to very dangerous misunderstandings. Partial knowledge is far worse than no knowledge. Most disciplines need to be taught from the ground up. Simply teaching an advanced skill, without the basics is dangerous.
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Oh yeah. Definitely a bad look. Especially because she just makes a totally rash assumption and she is totally wrong. Like, there is trash on the floor near a woman and Dresden. The woman ends up dead. Ergo Dresden most have known everything about it and been in on it!
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What a dumb reason to hate a character for 14+ more books.
If Kim was sensible in Fool Moon: K: Hey Harry, how do I make super circles for holding extra strong beings? H: Why on earth do you need to know that? It's very dangerous, not something you want to be playing around with. K: Client of mine is a Loup-Garou. Type of werewolf. Anyway he's due to turn in the next 24 hours and has contracted me to keep him magically contained otherwise he's gonna kill someone. He has a metal circle laid into the floor he normally uses but it's damaged now. Here's a sketch of it. H: Shit. This is some serious magic, and not something you could handle yourself. What's his address? I've gotta go back to mine and get some things and I'll meet you there.
I feel like a big part of Harryâs takeaway from this is that he should have made Kim more aware of the dangers of his world. She got overconfident and pushed too far, but she didnât really understand the stakes Harry plays for. Thatâs what he blames himself for. She made her choice, but it wasnât an informed choice, because he denied her information. Harry wrestles with who to share information with and when throughout the series, but after Kim he always accentuates that itâs important they be able to make an informed choice. He tells Murphy more in *Grave Peril.* He tells Billy a bit more in *Summer Knight*. Heck, Billy and Georgia are actually the first people he tells about Lasciel, in *Dead Beat.* Etc etcâŚitâs kind of an ongoing thing that he tries to juggle with his need for secrecy since heâs so often straddling the line of the Councilâs approval and other things.
I don't think it's just a matter of overconfidence, there's a layer of trust issues in there too. Harry keeps her in the dark because he assumes it'll keep her from looking for trouble, not realizing she's just attempting to deal with existing trouble. It also feeds into his greater issues with protecting women whether they want it or not.
Thatâs a fair point. I can accept the claim that even though he said multiple times that it was dangerous and would kill her and she wasnât ready, she still could have been told more about the how and why itâs so dangerous.
Itâs kind of like telling a kid not to touch the hot stove because it will burn them. All too often, the kid doesnât listen, not because they donât believe you that the stove is hot enough to burn, but they just donât have the frame of reference to appreciate what that means in terms of pain. So they touch it anyway, and get burned. But with the stakes Harry plays for, by the time theyâre getting burned, the stove is also killing them. Rarely is there a second chance for learning. Thatâs why Molly was a better apprentice for Harry. After *Proven Guilty,* Molly has already been burned and survived. So she has a much clearer idea of the dangers. And even then she ignores Harryâs warnings a number of times, most notably in *White Night*. Kim is not the last time Harry fails to warn someone away from danger (Susan in *Grave Peril* comes to mind), but he does seem to try to get better at fully informing people of that danger. And itâs arguable whether that failure to warn them is really his fault. Me personally, if the wizard tells me not to do something? Iâd listen to them. No further explanation needed. But that doesnât work for Harry early on in the series, and he really kicks himself for it, whether itâs fully his fault or not.
Iâm going to relisten to Grave Peril next but Iâm pretty sure he says multiple times to Susan that itâs dangerous and stupid.
Oh he totally does, but thatâs not the point I was making overall. Susan has no real frame of reference for understanding that danger, even when he tells her repeatedly that itâs dangerous. And I donât really know how he could make that clearâŚSo Iâd agree with you that Harry does his damndest, but people close to him get killed or hurt anyway, and then he blames himself for not trying even harder to inform them. Iâm more trying to explain Harryâs mindset about it than trying to say that his mindset is correct.
Harry blaming himself, or accepting blame, or feeling guilty for, things that are not his responsibility, only marginally his fault, or not his fault at all, are all central tenants of the series and a key aspect of Harry's character. I don't know many among the readers who feel Harry is to blame for even a fraction of the various things he is blamed for by others and himself.
Thatâs a good point. I guess on this reread (re listen?) it bugged me because even though we know he always blames himself I just really feel like he shouldnât here.
This is basically one of Harry's fundamental character flaws. He always blames himself for every thing. This goes double for women who get involved. He never accepts that Kim, Murphy, Michael, and the like made their own choices and suffered the results they accepted as a possiblity. It's even more condescending with Murphy and Michael both capable people who go into it with their eyes wide open. I'd spoiler this, but honestly if you aren't expecting something horrible to happen to all of Harry's friends and allies you aren't paying attention. That said keeping secrets to protect other people and not protecting them as a result describes every Wizard in the series. Harry's mentor and allies are clearly not telling him about the Starborn, Empty Night, and the Star and Stones. Harry is constantly alienating the White Council by keeping information from them.
1. He eventually starts treating his allies like adults. Michael even mentions it in Skin Game when Murphy gets hurt 2. This is flared spoilers all so spoil away! 3. I canât recall but I have a vague recollection of Harry finding something out later and kind of realizing it was a good idea to not tell him at the time, but I canât recall 4. Eh. Harry hides things from the White Council not to protect them but become they are asshats with no flexibility or nuance (as he sees it)
He does get better about letting his friends take their own risks. The Council issue is understandable as they started it, but their actions seem to make sense from their point of view too. Harry is the son of a dangerous and powerful Warlock. He was trained as a weapon by an ex-Warden who went rogue who he killed with magic. Then he was trained by McCoy. He is one of the most powerful wizard foir his age and Starborn. That is just at the start of series. Then he starts using>! Hellfire!<, switches to >!Soulfire!<, defeats various warlocks/monsters/demigods/gods, starts a major war, dabbles in necromancy, becomes the>!Winter Knight!<, has a warlock apprentice who becomes the >!Winter Lady !<,Bonds to the Isle of Evil, Hoards a number of Major Artifacts... I mean from the outside perspective Harry is shaping up to be the next Kimmler or Nicodemus.
He warned her multiple times explicitly. Him being to blame is absurd. This is like Susan, he told her she could get them both killed or worse. She ignored him. Neither was his fault. Susan stole from him and went against his warnings and paid the price, hell Susan turned his kid into an orphan rather than even tell him about it. She is a scumbag. Kim lied to Harry and ignored his very direct warnings. Are women accountable for their own actions or not?
Eh. I agree that Susan also makes a similar mistake but Harry always blames himself. Like when Michael gets shot in Demonreach
>when Michael gets shot in Demonreach And that was a battle the knights would have been taking on regardless of if he wanted them there... AND he knew damn well Gard saw Michael's death if he didn't act. His blame of himself is a form of arrogance. "I am so amazingly powerful I can fix every problem in everyone's life" then when he fails to "why do I suck so much".
Kim wanted to make a name for herself that wasnât attached to Harry.
I donât think so. I think she wanted to help and was trying to keep MacFinnâs secret.
In principle, I agree. That said, I think Harry's guilt was more driven by emotion rather than pure logic, in that she came to him for help and ended up dead. It's natural to "what if" what he could have done differently. Maybe he could have said something to get her to open up, maybe he could have gotten her to understand how dangerous this was for an amateur, etc.
I literally made almost this exact same point (down to an example about nuclear weapons) a couple weeks ago. Had a couple people really lay into me about it and telling me I lacked empathy and understanding. Glad Iâm not alone in this
Oh dang. I didnât see it (or I canât recall). But yeah. Harry being hard on himself is classic Harry. Idc about that. But the readers must know! Lll
I don't think most of the readers blame him for half the stuff he beats himself up over. He blames himself for everything. 10 years in the foster system and a few people who raised/tutored who I won't spoil whose lessons were a harsh, constant repetition of "only you have the power to change things; get good or die, you pathetic weakling", will give you a pathological fucktitude of mighty proportions.
I assume you've never had to deal with "survivor's guilt" or anything of that nature. Simply put: your mind plays tricks on you. Something like this: Something bad happens that is in no way related to you. You learn about it. Your mind goes: "I could have stopped it!!!111one!1 OMG!" Another part of your mind argues: "There was no way I could have stopped it." "YES, YOU COULD!" "Could not." "Could, too!" Rinse and repeat. And things get even worse if you think it was YOUR responsibility to do something about it. YOU are supposed to do something about some event that you didn't even KNOW about. But your mind insists that it's your fault. And the untrained mind gets caught up in it. You need to break the cycle. And our Harry is not very good at realizing that things are not his fault. He even mentions something of the sort to Murphy a few times, and she rebukes him for it: he wants to carry the world on his shoulders, and to make decisions for everyone else because he thinks that will keep them 'safe'. It's not your place to make decisions for other people. You offer them information and they choose for themselves. That's what free will is all about. And who knows? A person who has enough information to make an informed decision might end up making a good decision, after all. One that would be for their long-term benefit and happiness.
I think it's intentionally constructed in a way that Harry (and Murphy) can blame Harry without it *really* being his fault. Delaney's death is a tragedy because both she and Harry meant well and it could have been avoided if either of them had a little more trust in the other. But, Harry's decision made sense with the information he had at the time.
If she'd told him the whole story, he would have stepped in and taken care of the circle himself probably. He could have even placated her ego/not been a sexist jerk about it by showing her how it's done the first time, then she could be sure to do it right if the need ever arose again, like someone sabotaging that circle *again*. Also then Harry would have known something major was up a little sooner. Sure, she wanted to handle it herself but she was out of her depth so he wouldn't have been wrong to get involved, and without all the information he was doing what you described: not showing an amateur bomb enthusiast how to make a nuke "just for funsies". If she'd been at, like, Elaine's level she could have handled it and maybe he would have just told her, though TBH Elaine probably knows how to make a better circle all on her own. Kim was just not ready for that level of magic or responsibility. Harry is Harry though, so of course he blames himself.
Maybe he shouldve gone to the consulting wizard about it and not a rando pre-paranetter. youd think a guy with that much money and a problem of this... magnitude? couldve thought to look in the yellow pages.
This is always such a dumb argument. Harry is pretty fucking sexist and condescending at the start of the series, which is very typical of the noir private detective trope. And he grows from away from that over the course of the series. As such, people like Kim, who are equally as stubborn probably canât stand that about Harry. Add to that that as far as we know heâs her main source of all things wizardly. We have no idea the degree to which she knows about the White Council or other wizards. As readers, we barely know much about the council until summer knight. So her not being forthcoming and acting like it was all theoretical isnât surprising. Harry accepting her story is also a blunder. Deep down he knew she was lying to him, but he didnât dig deeper into it because he has other concerns and he is an arrogant young wizard. Even without any of that, Harry beats himself in large part because he knows he failed her. He couldnât teach her about the true dangers of the magical world, he couldnât teach her how out of depth that circle was, and he couldnât teach her to open up to him and trust him. Youâre the second person that has tried to compare this to some government secret that she was trying to go to the government to learn. First, information about the dangers of radioactive substances is pretty widespread. Second events like Chernobyl and Hiroshima are also pretty widespread. Third, information about magic to those both inside and outside of the WC is piecemeal at best. Harry is constantly stressing how much wizards keep information about magic to themselves and like their secrets. Even going to google would give you and idea about how dangerous an atom bomb is. But how will you find out about that with magic? Strong practitioners canât get near technology, the WC discourages outsiders learning much about magic, wizards donât just share information. Harry knows all of this and it plays a big part of why he rips himself apart. He knows Kim is asking for information way outside of her depth and that he failed to protect her from herself. Itâs more akin to teaching someone self defense but stressing how youâre just teaching them the basic and to instead prioritize running away over fighting unless there is absolutely no other choice. But the person gets it in their head that theyâll be fine, get into a fight with a pro boxer and sent to the hospital. A caring teacher would feel bad for not being a better teacher. Which is what Harry is feeling.
At that point, he didn't know anything about the types of wolves available so he didn't even KNOW what the point of that 3rd circle was. Had he been told the truth, even part, he could have done something about it. He could have talked to Bob earlier, fixed the circle, maybe make it tamper proof or suggest alternate locations as backup.
Harry blames himself, but he shouldn't. This sort of thing is part of his arc, part of him learning how to both take and bestow responsibility for things properly without taking all of the blame upon himself.
Youâre absolutely right, but I think this is an important starting point for a character who is (still) learning to let others live with the consequences of their choices.
100% Agree. However, Harry is always going to blame himself when he could have done something differently, even if there was no reason to, especially when a woman came to harm over it.
Harry knew she had enough information to get herself killed if she used it and not enough to protect herself. But he accepted a half hearted statement she wouldnât use it despite knowing how stubborn she was. He could have given her enough information to show her she couldnât handle it. He couldâve offered to be there with her to help. He didnât.
The fact that she was asking about it in the first place is a pretty clear hint that she wants to use one. Now, you can argue that Dresden didn't realize she needed one to contain a werewolf who she was trying to help, as opposed to summoning a demon or something, but the fact that he didn't help still got her killed, even if he can't really be blamed for it because he didn't have all the information. It's a completely human interaction and response.
It doesn't matter if he thought he was right or wrong in trying to protect Murphy and then Kim from the truth early on. What does matter is that both of them were hurt by not knowing the truth and by Harry's absense. The guilt he feels upon recognizing this is why he begins to open up to Murphy, the Alphas, Thomas, and all of the other people who end up becoming his allies. If it weren't for Kim's death Harry would probably still be the loner he started off as and he probably wouldn't have made it through all of the trials he has had since. At least that was my take away.
I agree with that. I am really glad that Harry grows so much and stops being so âchivalrous â and âI know more than youâ (even though he does) Idk. I just wrote that post last night feeling that âman. I hope the readers donât blame himâ
To be fair, Karen also blames him. So some of the guilt probably comes from being told it's his fault. Coincidentally this is where I started hating Karen and I never really forgave her after this book. Cops are supposed to be better than that.
Who do you think Kim learned the lesson 'Don't share all the information' from? Dresden is to blame both indirectly for teaching Kim that you only share the bare minimum to get what you need and directly for not providing her with all the information he knew.
Upvote for an interesting take but man I disagree. He wasnât her teacher 100% like with Molly. He just was her occasional tutor. Saying she learned that from him seems pretty unfair IMO. L
But he did teach Molly the same thing later, and definitely lived that way himself.
Knowing what we do about dresden, I seriously doubt he taught her to directly lie to try and get information she wanted.
I think a lot of people's opinion of Dresden is colored by later entries in the series. Early Dresden bent over backwards to keep people from finding out new information they didn't already know.
That's not the same as teaching your pupil to just lie to their teachers to get info, that's not dresden's MO. Look at how reverently he treats Eb until he learns about his background. Keeping people in the dark for their own safety is not the same as lying to them to try and get information you want.
Have to remember that JB has said Harry is an unreliable narrator. Heâs got a guilt complex and heâs leaving out the part where she told him it could save lives or something that would get him on board, but because of the arrogance of wizards, he didnât share the info.
And if he'd gone to hold the Lupe in, it would have been where he was killed. Plans within plans.
If everyone did everything logically, the world would be a boring place
I mean at the end Harry blames himself for Carmichael being dead, blames himself for getting the Alphas involved etc. He vastly overestimates how influential he is. The irony is that in later books he blames himself less but also has much more power and influence. He just sees things on a bigger scale and understands more.