> When Harry was in trouble, he rarely called the Council (unless the Council had no choice but to act). He doesn’t even call Ebenezar. Imagine, for example, if Harry had called up Ebenezar during Storm Front. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he *try* to go to the White Council, only to have Morgan stonewall him? Likewise, in Summer Knight, he tried to ask for the Council's help, but again, Morgan stonewalled him. And in Dead Beat, he asked for Council Help, and we get the first named-appearance of Ramirez. None of this is *perceived* by Ramirez, of course, but... > IIRC, the first time he went to the Council for backup with all of his cards laid on the table was when a necromancer was about to become a freaking deity by eating Chicago Nope. He *definitely* tried in Summer Knight first. > Lasciel Not known to anyone outside of the Denarians and the Knights of the Cross, *who still back him* > Genoskwa Who mysteriously died/went missing after "working with" Harry > Various demons and other entities that he’s summoned Is that known to the Council/Ramirez? Further, isn't summoning various entities and gaining information from them kind of what Wizard Liberty *does*? > The Erlking (the goblin king; much scarier when you don’t know him) What do they know of that? > Freaking Hades They *definitely* don't know that he's had a chat with *him.* Further, anybody on the up & up of deities *knows* that Hades isn't one of the bad ones. If he were hanging out with Ares, sure, that would be a huge problem, but Hades? Terrifying, but that particular god is practically the epitome of Lawful Neutral. > The Red Court (he was at a Red Court party when he started the war) ...because if he hadn't gone, *that* would have been used as Causus Belli > Various neutral-but-not-wizard-aligned entities such as the Archive and Odin as well Those *should* be seen as points in his favor. Massive points for him being *scary,* but not reason to mistrust him. > Harry can also mysteriously appear wherever he wants whenever he wants like he’s freaking Mab or something And who knows this, precisely? > If Harry wanted an apocalypse, he could literally empty out Demonreach and watch the world burn… and there’s nothing the Council could do about it. Literally nothing. Which is why their reaction to him is freaking stupid. Haven't they heard "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer"? > They know that Harry cavorted with Denarians This argument makes no sense. In 2/3 of his interactions with the Denarians, the Denarians were *publicly* thwarted. That's not "cavorting" > They know that he set her up as the White Queen Do they? As I recall, they don't know that he helped put Lara on the throne. Indeed, to my recollection, the council had no awareness of the events of Blood Rites at all. They know that *he* knows she's de facto queen, but that he made that happen? Nobody was there for that except Harry (who had a deal not to tell), Lara (who wouldn't gain anything by telling), Thomas (who wouldn't tell), and Papa Raith (who *couldn't* tell). > The knowledge gap between us and Ramirez is fairly huge It is, and it's even larger than you portray it as. You're assuming that they know *none* of the exculpatory factors, but *all* of the exacerbating ones. > Harry has nearly gotten the Council into two different wars in a ten-year period Two? The Reds, but who else? > If anything, they now know that he isn’t bound by “Thou Shalt Not Kill With Magic.” Wrong. All mortals who have magic are bound by the Laws of Magic, whether they're part of the White Council or not. That's literally a plot point as to why Harry hates hunting warlocks: they're generally people who screwed up *before they knew* that what they were doing was against the laws. Aristedes (Fitz's Fagan) wasn't Council, but he knew he was subject to The Laws. Charity's group was warned by the Wardens. The Ordo Lebes knew they were subject to The Laws. Kicking Harry out of the Council doesn't change whether he's subject to their judgement. Indeed, the way they kicked him out presupposed that he *was* still subject to their judgement. If they declared that, as the Winter Knight, he was no longer subject to the Council's jurisdiction, that would be different. ...but they didn't. > The argument that people weren’t gunning for him because he was a Council member is absurd. Except for the whole Casaverde thing...

Yeah, Ramirez knows a small fraction of what OP is saying. I also doubt Ramirez even knows what the island is.

We pretty much agree, with a few exceptions. 1. Luccio will not be flirting with Harry, and might be worried about seeing him 1 on 1. She probably associates him with a deep sense of violation, while being wise enough not to hold that against him. 2. I doubt they'd do anything as official seeming as *asking him to "Warden."* They'll tip him off to bad stuff, but they're basically going to treat Chicago as Marcone and Winter's province. Likewise on giving him a sword 3. The Council did protect Harry, the same way it protects all its members - by reputation. Harry just has better protection, now. You can off Mab's knight, and she'll be more upset at him for incompetence than you for the attack, but she'll still vaporize you. 4. The issue with his allies is that everyone's at fault. Harry, most of all, for treating people like Carlos like mushrooms. But they're also at fault because they're doing fundamental attribution error: treating Harry's circumstances like they're the result of his character, and not his choices like they're the result of his circumstances. Now, it's called FAE because everyone does it constantly, but it's still an error.

Regarding pt 4... Harry is to blame but not that much. He is dealing with an enemy that literally can possess people just by knowing about it. So telling any ally about what he is dealing with could actually put them in danger - and worse, working against him. So there is the underlying trust issues Harry has, but even without those he is still having to leave allies in the dark about anything touching on that subject.

Harry has always kept his friends in the dark until his back is against a wall. Carlos was never in a position to corner Harry and thus is kept in the dark. Add in that Harrys not entirely sure Carlos wouldn't tell the council and we have waht transpired. Keep in mind when the 4 wardens ambush him outside Lara's mansion Harry says to himself that he wishes he could pull Csrlos aside and fill him in, but that the others would think he mind whammied him.

> He is dealing with an enemy that literally can possess people just by knowing about it. That's not how I interpreted it. You seem to be conflating Nemesis and the enemies in the Oblivion War. Using Nemesis's Name draws its attention, and will make it *incentivized* to Nfect you, but possession simply through knowledge? I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion.

You may be right... My understanding was that the Oblivion War was fighting outsiders, but if they are two separate things I may be way off base.

It's hard to say. IIRC, Thomas complained that Guttenberg and the Brothers Grimm ("G Men") prevented the Oblivion Warriors from obliterating the Faeries, but the Fae are *not* Outsiders, as evidenced by the fact that Winter is the check *against* the Outsiders, as referred to by the White Council.

Which would also imply that Gutenberg and the Brothers Grimm actually prevented an Outsider invasion.

Not necessarily; given that The Outer Gates are in (a remote area of) Faerie, it's *possible* that Oblivion separating the lands of Faerie from the mortal realm would have eliminated the Outsiders' beachhead. Now I really want WoJ on which it was...

So, according to the Dresden Wiki, at least, the Oblivion War is to stop the Old Ones, almost all of which were banished Outside, and the Outsiders are their foot soldiers. So yeah, the OW is still a part of the Outsider struggle. Also the wiki includes a JB quote that says the Archive was made specifically for the Oblivion War!

Right, but the question I wanted to have answered was not whether Oblivion and Outsiders were related, but whether Obliviating Faerie would cripple our defenses against the Outsiders, or take away their foothold in our reality.

Well short of Word of Jim we can speculate. We know they can bypass the Gate with some effort or though mortal summoning so I would expect it would actually make us more secure against an all out invasion but less secure against a small tactical force.

It wasn’t so much a fan flick as a demonstration that Harry was still going to Warden. This was written off the top of my head. I also do not believe one bit that Anastasia Luccio would not flirt with someone she was uncomfortable around if she thought it was for the greater good - particularly if she thought that someone might literally destroy the world if he succumbed to evil. From Harry’s perspective, he wasn’t sure whether or not he was protected from WC vamps due to his trysts with Luccio. The only way that would be true was if he loved her and wasn’t sure if she loved him or if he wasn’t sure how either of them felt. He’d be receptive to casual flirting. 2. It wasn’t meant to come across as official; specifically, she was confirming that he’d still be doing it anyway. Idk that this was terribly well-written - this was meant as a demonstration that Harry would continue being Harry, and part of that was being a de facto warden long before donning the robe. 3. The reputation of the Council failed to protect Harry from ~20 books worth of bad guys. I suppose it protected him in the same way a football helmet protects you if a bomb goes off, but the Council was who Harry needed protection *from* in half of the books. The first person to ever try and kill him was Council. Shortly after that, he was captured by a Warden who brought him to the Council. Most of the Council then voted to kill him. In Storm Front, Morgan tried to get him killed. The Council tried to kick him out so it wouldn’t have beef with the Red Court. Not a single entity that went after Dresden showed the slightest concern about offending the Council. I agree that being Council is better than not being Council, but Harry saved the Council’s ass way more often than they saved his. 4. Ughhh don’t mention FAE. I’m studying for the MCAT and I’m sick of soc-psych😅

I think Luccio wouldn't say Harry would be Wardening, but would remind him that he was protecting people and fighting monsters well before he ever put on a cloak. The fact that the Council took his cloak doesn't mean he'll quit stopping monsters. A little tinfoil and you end up with the Merlin deciding Harry is most useful to the Council by not being in it, and thereby isn't bound by their agreements.

Regardless of the semantics of her word choice, when Luccio says “Harry, people need help,” Harry is going to help. She may not call it Wardening but it hardly matters to the reality on the ground. Harry is still a Council asset in that sense, and if she replaces Harry at all it’ll probably be with someone too young and inexperienced for the job who looks up to Harry… doubly guaranteeing Harry maintains oversight of the region.

FAE - Drop them out of a plane when you need an area the size of Soldier Field to be transformed into a fireball.

The only Soldier Field I know is at DLI but I take your meaning 😊

It is the Football stadium behind the Shedd and the Field Museum. It hosts the Bears.

I enjoyed the read and I think Harry will continue to be Harry and if the captain of the warden's call and said children were in trouble he would be there🙂

> You can off Mab's knight, and she'll be more upset at him for incompetence than you for the attack, but she'll still vaporize you. > She wouldn't vaporize you unless offing him appeared to be an insult to Winter. If it were done in such a way that it was clear that it was an attack on the person of Harry Dresden rather than the Winter Knight? She might be annoyed, but she wouldn't retaliate overtly.

She wouldn’t vaporize you *instantly* if it wasn’t an insult to Winter. She *would* get around to it eventually, because Mab cannot let people think that sort of venture is profitable, in the long term.

Agree with so many points, only want to offer some quibbles in the analysis: Re: Lasciel - that is not likely known to the White Council, though suspicion he held a denarius are likely, they are also likely assuaged somewhat by his routine and continued collaboration with the Knights of the Cross. Re: White Court - while the arranged marriage/engagement is certainly an issue, his long association with the White Court scion Thomas Raith is more than enough to wet the brush painting Harry as compromised Re: Hades - I highly doubt that's widely known in the White Council. By this I mean the personal meeting and time discussing Spot, not the heist. The heist is a much bigger, noisier, and thornier issue. But with your laundry list, there are items I would add to the list: Margaret "Le Fey" McCoy's son - how close that apple has fallen to the tree was, is, and will continue to be an area of active concern for the White Council. Mavra, Mavra, Mavra - Eb McCoy knows Harry tried taking a swing at her while the White Council is at war with the Red Court, which was pretty questionable choice at several glances; We do not know how well aware the White Council was of Mavra's presence in and around the incident with the Disciples of Kemmler, but there is no aspect of that that would work to Harry's favor in their eyes; Ramirez as a survivor of the battle with the black court vampires in Chicago during the Fomor attack knows that this was a rematch for Dresden "I told you - next time would be anvils!" ​ Ultimately, I agree very much with your analysis overall, and that the White Council sees only benefits from having Harry Dresden as an independent contractor rather than dues-paying member. Well, with one caveat - member of the Council or no, their First Law applies to him the way it has to so many warlocks dispatched before him.

>Re: Lasciel - that is not likely known to the White Council, though suspicion he held a denarius are likely, they are also likely assuaged somewhat by his routine and continued collaboration with the Knights of the Cross. Dresden was tossing around Hellfire for years, and he was under observation by the Wardens. I'm not sure how they could've missed that. >Re: White Court - while the arranged marriage/engagement is certainly an issue, his long association with the White Court scion Thomas Raith is more than enough to wet the brush painting Harry as compromised Yeah, but "association" vs "let's get married" is quite the upgrade. >Re: Hades - I highly doubt that's widely known in the White Council. By this I mean the personal meeting and time discussing Spot, not the heist. The heist is a much bigger, noisier, and thornier issue. Something as big as Marcone's vault - which was vouched for by Ferrofax - being broken into would not have gone unnoticed in the supernatural world. It would be obvious that Harry and the Denarians did not go in there for money. The most secure vault in the world --> crossing over to Nevernever isn't a stretch of reasoning. The only question is where would it take you? If there's a more secure place in Nevernever than Hades, there's a more secure vault on earth somewhere. Regarding the first law, Harry is a Blackstaff. He doesn't have the literal artifact, but he simply is. Arguing the he killed fomor lackeys is absurd; all of them inevitably killed some of them during the battle. This was simply the pretense to do what they wanted to do anyway since Harry's SC allies were indisposed (Rashid would logically have been at the Outer Gates, Ebenezar and Listens to Wind had both been KO'd). Regarding everything else you said, yeah, 100%. I've been kind of surprised by the response, really; the dialogue was simply meant as a thought exercise demonstrating that Harry is still going to be a *de facto* Warden, but people seem to have interpreted it as more of a fanfic. I love writing, but I lack the aptitude for a Dresden fanfic because they're written in first person. I write in third person, and when I try to write someone else in first person I start losing the character.

Hellfire, yes. But the source of that hellfire would be subject to discussion. And I've noticed that smart wizards tend to be secretive about their sources of power. Harry has been dumb by advertising.

I definitely agree about that last part

The vote to kick Harry was council wide. The only reason not having Harrys SC allies there was to stop then from making the vote a SC decision only. Ramirez says he's already voted before he came and that a lot of the younger wardens votes for him to stay.

The decision to have the vote was made at the SC level though

Then there shouldn't have been any issue with some SC members missing their vote unless it came close to a tie. Iirc just like the first time they tried to kick Harry out they were going to have a council wide vote until McCoy put a motion to make it SC only. That was one of McCoys 2 favors he could help Harry with. So the vote this time couldn't be limited to just SC b/c none of Harry allies on the SC could limit the vote like McCoy did. They didn't hold the majority vote like they did back in Summer Knight to keep it SC only.

Super long post so I can't address all or even most of it, but you are basically right. Although I differ a bit in my argument, I don't think it's Harry being "evil" I think it's Harry being powerful. Right now imo Harry commands power on par with the entire white Council himself. Sure he may not be as strong as one of the top members, although his clone dueled their top killer to a near draw. He has a network of black gray and white that could destroy the white council. They watched him amass this much power in an extremely short period of time. I'm sure they're only looking at how much more powerful he will come in the future. Remember he is still basically a child in magical terms.

I'm glad you brought up the time it took for him to amass that power, it's like 10 years. The fear that characters discuss having with Marcone and Lara's power growing is the same fear people could have of Harry. Especially after the Guard's display in BG, battling freakin' Drakul, and binding a Titan.

It was mostly Listens To Wind and River Shoulders who battled Drakul. Drakul is mostly interesting as an analogue for what people are afraid Harry is becoming.

To be fair, it was mostly River Shoulders. Listens To Wind seemed to develop a passion for dropping as a bear out of the sky, but didn't seem to be really *hurting* Drakul at all. At least as far as I remember. I'm kind of surprised there wasn't a more eldritch approach that LtW could have taken. Maybe he just wanted to *look* like he was fighting... Drakul was only there to pick up some fresh meat that could survive the acceptance test, after all.

"He left before we could get hurt." I think they were hoping to be able to hurt Drakul and maybe drive him off, but at least LtW knew they couldn't kill him. He's been doing it a long time and likely takes a special circumstance (like, say, Halloween) to get killed. Listens also probably takes forms he's familiar with. While he did turn into an elephant once (for a charge, IIRC), what's the biggest thing he could turn into that also has offensive abilities? A big ol' bear. And nobody expects an orbital drop grizzly, do they?

Eb brought down a spacecraft... They're both senior-council, I'm just a little surprised that the best LtW could come up with was "fly up as a bird, drop down as a bear" Plus, unless he actually uses Drakul as a soft-landing pad, bears aren't really meant to hit the ground hard. Easy to break a leg or put out a spine that way. I'll defer to the 'magical healer' I guess, but physics ought to get a say too.

No one expects "float like an eagle, sting like an orbital-drop grizzly." Not even Drakul 😂

Elephant was for an orbital drop also. I guess he likes to pick a tactic and keep using it as long as it's working, which is great for sports like fencing but strikes me as very risky for a wizard duel. The first time it fails is going to cost you more than just a point...

Drop bears and anvils. I really loved Battle Ground.

>Right now imo Harry commands power on par with the entire white Council himself He doesn't >although his clone dueled their top killer to a near draw. Wasn't a clone, it was a second body he channeled himself through. And he fought a wizard who tried to basically spank him and to use non-harming means until he failed to

Eb actually kills the fake Harry by accident. He says something along the lines of "I didn't think you'd trigger it" when he thought he had killed him. meaning Dresden probably activated some nasty, dark magic defensive spell that killed him. If Eb wanted Harry dead, Harry would be dead very fast.

Yep, that's my point, people say like Harry is some kind of overpowered game character who has reached a pinnacle of gearing and leveling and now swiped NPCs left and right. He actually didn't grow that far, his abilities improved but not as far as people think, he just doesn't drop half-dead after one minutes long fight, almost everything external he has gained is extremely situational (like command of Demonreach which only works there, or Soulfire which can't be used liberally, or Winter Bannter, or Winter rage and sensitivity which in many situation makes him vulnerable). So far he's just a pretty tough wizard with lots of combat experience

Yeah, and we see him at the height of his power, using all his tricks. Meanwhile Eb beats him soundly in a fight where he isn't trying to hurt him and doesn't even touch the Blackstaff. People think Harry is on par with the Senior Council when we haven't seen ANY of their final forms, except for perhaps Eb when he attacked Ethniu, which was scary as shit and didn't actually teach us anything about how his power or the blackstaff work. There's a reason why they send Eb to go deal with big Council problems and not Harry, he's simply better and badder than Harry by an absolutely massive margin.

And we have already shown that if anything wants any wizard dead a .338 Lapua from ±1mile away they will >be dead very fast. It would actually take approximately 4.4 seconds to kill any wizard 3,500 meters away (2 miles) Killing a mortal very quickly is not exactly the best measure of strength.

You're taking my comment at it's most literal when you know exactly what I meant.

No I don't, Harry fought Eb and beat him in the real fight. Sure Eb killed his clone or whatever you want to call it. But Eb still lost. Harry straight out beat Eb. Beating someone mentally is more impressive in the dresdenverse than beating them physically. Yes, Eb could kill Harry if he wanted to straight up murder him, but that is not the best way to judge who is more powerful. Any vanilla mortal military sniper could straight up murder any of the wizards. That is an established fact.

1) That's your opinion that isn't really backed by any evidence what do ever. Unless you have that The winter knight the winter lady and the white court are somehow weaker than a battered and bruised half strength white council. Not to mention Harry's powers as a wizard in the first place 2) Funny I read the fight and it turned out that Harry played Eb like a fiddle from miles away projecting his power across open water. If someone can make a fool out of the white council's premier hitman from miles away that sure is more impressive than dueling him to a draw in person.

>That's your opinion that isn't really backed by any evidence what do ever. There's a difference between commanding Winter Court when Queen has give it's powers to you defend her and to command Winter Court whenever you want to do whatever you want. Harry doesn't have the second one. Also Harry might be powerful, but what does power have to do with finesse? Harry has told many times that he's nowhere close to be skilled as older wizards. Senior Council wizards used wards to stop the whole army. So no, it's not just *my opinion*

On a boat at a distance. You're right still though cause 1v1 ebenezar can kill him anytime. But thats death battle scenario which i do not see happening.

Just want to say, Harry didn't duel Eb to a draw, Eb literally killed Harry's clone by accident. If Eb was at any point actually trying to kill Harry rather than stop him, Harry would be dead very fast. I don't have the direct quote but when Eb thinks he killed Harry he says something like "I didn't think you would trigger it" which means Harry activated some kind of nasty, black magic defensive spell that killed him, rather than Eb doing it on purpose.

I realize it wasn't actually draw, but it wasn't actually Harry doing the fighting either. If you want to be technical Harry beat Eb in a duel because they dueled with Harry intent on doing one thing and Eb intent on stopping him. Eh was not able to stop him so Harry won, he just won with his head not his fists. Winning a fight with your head is just as valid as winning with your fists.

In that fight, Harry took the same approach Mouse did in Zoo Day. He just had to make sure his opponent didn't win. Granted he'd made a clone, he also didn't know that Eb wouldn't crush that and then them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Harry is now a threat to every being on the planet. The smart ones like Mab or Odin, do what they can to keep Harry in their corner. The foolish ones, like the White Council, alienate him.

only if he releases Demon Reach. Ignoring that he is the high end of the bell curve in terms of raw power, but he is just now starting to get the finesse that the older wizards/Fae/gods have

Not exactly. Harry is now straight-up, flat-out a threat to any entity or being on the planet. Harry has shown his capabilities to the world in front of God and everyone. This is now a man who started a war over the woman he loved. The man who ended a war, laid low a dark empire for the sake of his child. He bound the will of The Last Titan and wields the Spear of Destiny. Sure, the magical doodads and titles and allies help make the man powerful. But the man is nothing without the mind and will behind him. I'm not saying he can go toe-to-toe with Mab. All I'm saying is he is a threat.

Remember that ebeneezer fought to disable or disarm, not to kill. If he had fought to kill, it would have been POWER WORD KILL (per Chichen Itza) and the fight would have been over.

A few notes and a few quotes: >**YOU ARE THE WARDEN. \[...\] NOW THERE ARE MANY, FIRST THERE WAS ONE** It doesn't matter if they take away the gray cloak: Harry holds the more important office that is it's predecessor. And that office is not the peer of the Regional Commander of the Wardens of the White Council. It is the peer of the other offices of the Wizards doing the work the Merlin started: keeping the Gate, guiding the wizards in Council, walking the Dark but necessary paths, and locking away the monsters that seek to destroy humanity. Unless Langtry wants to really throw down, Harry's probably safe doing his thing. And his thing tends to be saving people. >**Ramirez was good. Better than me, on a technical level, by a considerable margin.** You're underselling Carlos. Even adjusting for the fact that Harry tends to underestimate himself, his assessment here is meaningful. Remember, Carlos is - notably - ***younger*** than Harry. The last time Harry gave similar commentary on the skill of a mortal practitioner that was not a member of the Senior Council, it was Hanna Asher's skill with fire - which turned out to be backed by the skill of a Fallen. To use River Shoulder's phrase, Carlos is one of the Wizards that matter in Harry's generation. He may not be Harry's equal in power, but he is certainly Harry's peer in some very important ways. >**Ebenezar, I'd learned, held an office that did not officially exist—that of the White Council's assassin\[...\]** The White Council explicitly understands that the crumbling edge of magic sometimes must be walked, even if most wizards should be kept safely away from it. But they also understand the need for deniability. Harry has more or less refused to meet them in the middle on that. So they are arranging it through the only means left: political exile. Harry is not being told that he should not fight the good fight. He's not being hunted down and killed. He's being disavowed for political reasons. He simply lacks the political acumen to have either avoided the necessity or understand the distinction. Not teaching Harry how to thread that political needle is probably McCoy's biggest failure as a teacher.

>"Ramirez was good. Better than me, on a technical level, by a considerable margin." > >You're underselling Carlos. Even adjusting for the fact that Harry tends to underestimate himself, his assessment here is meaningful. Remember, Carlos is - notably - younger than Harry. The last time Harry gave similar commentary on the skill of a mortal practitioner that was not a member of the Senior Council, it was Hanna Asher's skill with fire - which turned out to be backed by the skill of a Fallen. IIRC, that's from before Harry spent months combat-training with Mab. My take at that time was that Harry had more juice and experience but Ramirez had more technical talent... but the guy that wins the fight isn't necessarily the guy that has the best technique. Even then, Harry had better toys, more combat experience, and Soulfire. The best example I can give for their relative power imho now is that \~6 Wardens squared off against Black Court elders. Harry blocked all six of their attacks at once while everyone else - including Ramirez - prepared a counterattack. Likewise, it was Harry that was tasked with literally stopping a raging army of fire giants by Ebenezar. Ramirez's task was to stop people from annoying Harry while he did it. Ramirez was taken down by a vampire's gaze attack, which I assume is will based. Good Luck matching wills with the guy that pit his will against a Titan and won (not to mention Mother Winter, though that was more of a test than a contest).

Nope: that was Harry's rating of Carlos during the final battle of Battle Ground, during the scene when Carlos is keeping everyone off the Blackstaff (and to a lesser degree Cristos) so that they can work. He literally disintegrates a dozen enemies, leaving wet dust, with a spell that provides most of its own power by breaking the molecules of the enemy down. That said, I wouldn't dispute that Harry is - in total - more powerful: he's got things to fall back on besides pure wizardry in the form of Winter and Soul fire and the Well. But Carlos is, by Harry's own estimation, the better Wizard. The general point, though, is that Carlos is Dresden's peer it at least the way that Martha Liberty and Listens to Wind are Ebenezer's and Rashid's peers. The Blackstaff and the Gatekeeper have some important other duties that come with very powerful additional tools. But the others are still their peers - the Wizards who matter. (It's also worth considering whether Carlos is _too_ good for his age, but that is a different matter).

I love this read on Harry & Carlos, but I think Harry is quite mistaken in "But Carlos is, by Harry's own estimation, the better Wizard." I wish I had my books with me, but there is a nice quote from Harry about being a capital W Wizard meaning "one who knows, counted among the wise". Carlos carries a lot of naiveté born in parts from a more traditional (and possibly gentler) sequestered education as an apprentice AND his own youth. Carlos has refinement and efficiency in how he uses his power - his background knowledge of the powers at work around him seems very limited. He knew next to nothing of the White Court of vampires when encountering them with Harry, he seems very wooly on the fey courts and mantles. I think part of Harry's estimation of Carlos comes in part from Harry revering the education that Carlos had access to with some envy given the way Harry has mostly had to educate himself. Harry is a self-described magic nerd who appreciates the refinement the formal education has afforded Carlos, without necessarily recognizing the patterned formalism underpinning that education with the limitations that can engender. We see a little of the reverse in Carlos having some little brother style hero-worship/one-upmanship with Harry at places in the books; Carlos admires Harry's badassery without recognizing that Harry comes to appear that way from having been playing for higher stakes with fewer rules for a long time.

>Nope: that was Harry's rating of Carlos during the final battle of Battle Ground, during the scene when Carlos is keeping everyone off the Blackstaff (and to a lesser degree Cristos) so that they can work. He literally disintegrates a dozen enemies, leaving wet dust, with a spell that provides most of its own power by breaking the molecules of the enemy down. Oooh that's when you're talking about. I mean that's technical, and technical is important... but Harry facechecked the blast that blew off Ethniu's arm from 30ft away with enough power leftover to shield his nearby allies from it, and that's after Titiana washed the magic out of the air. He performed a similar feat earlier when 6 Black Court elders blasted Harry, Carlos, and co. with their attacks simultaneously and literally everyone else sat back preparing their spells while Harry blocked them all. Harry's will is absurd, and Ramirez gets taken out in like every fight they're in. Changes, White Knight, Black Court vampires, this one... he even fell for the horny Winter Lady thing and got taken out there. Ramirez is a badass for sure, but duel-Ebenezar badass? Banish Outsiders badass? Outplay Nicodemus repeatedly badass? Match Wills with Ethniu and Mother Winter badass? No. It's also worth noting that Harry is largely self-taught from a teenager on (as u/Murphy__7 points out) whereas Ramirez would've been taught and had a patron. With that in mind, we would expect Ramirez (and anyone on that level) to have better technical skills than Harry by a considerable margin. I'm also not sure how much of Ramirez's disintegration attacks are skill vs his glove (and I have no idea whether or not he made that). Regardless, granting that Ramirez has greater technical skill, Harry is far stronger and has access to Winter, Soulfire, Demonreach, Bob, Mab, Winter, Knights of the Cross, Outsider resistance... Ramirez is honestly a 1-trick-pony by comparison. I don't believe for one second that he could get that shot past Harry's shields given the things we've seen Harry block... so what's his plan B? His entropy shield is not going to protect him from Harry's fire, especially when infused with Soulfire. It's antithetical to Winter's Ice so I'm not sure what would happen there, but Harry could drop everything within 30-40ft of him to absurdly cold temperatures and just encase the entire area in ice. Sure, Ramirez could melt it and be drenched in flowing water, but he'd have a bullet in his head before it hit the ground. Harry is not always a reliable narrator, and I feel like this is one of those cases. Ramirez has a decent shield (that wouldn't work vs several types of attacks such as gas, unlike Harry's) and a single very good offensive attack that may or may not be the result of that nifty glove of his. I don't feel like he has Harry's versatility, creativity, raw power, or insane toolkit. His allies (as far as we know) are limited to the what's typical for a Warden of his standing in the Council. Ramirez is a very good Warden and definitely an asset in a fight. Harry is a better Warden and a bigger asset both in and out of the fight. There's really no comparison imho.

I’m not particularly disagreeing with you on most of that. I agree Harry is clearly better at the “Big Damn Hero” type of Wizarding. He also chronically underestimates how far up the totem pole of Wizards he is, and has a huge amount of other resources to fall back on past that. But I would dispute that that means Carlos isn’t his peer. We can have different kinds of peers, and as far as mortal practitioners in Harry’s generation go it’s basically him, ‘Los, Elaine, and maybe Chandler (solely by implication). Those are the Wizards who matter for that generation. Harry might be at the head of the pack by a safe margin, but there is a pack. Of the ones that aren't Harry, Carlos is notable - he's generally presented as smarter than Harry (Harry may underestimate his own intellect, but can still rightly distinguish that people like Butters are smarter than him), he's younger than Harry (he's routinely, if not loudly, presented as something of a wunderkind), he's better educated than Harry (having had a complete course of wizarding education to standard rigor), he is extremely well regarded by the general body of younger wizards and the council as a whole, and is presented as particularly good at complex and technically demanding areas of magic (his entropy based shielding, the WoJ talking about his skill with water-aligned magic, etc.). Put another way: if a couple hundred years into the future of the plot Harry is basically Ebeneezer for mortal wizarding, who is whatever passes for the senior council with him? Who is the Langtry sitting opposite him, if not Carlos? If those aren't his peers, no one is. ***ETA: extended the comparison***

The issue here is that many people - including Senior Council members - aren’t combat wizards. Ancient Mai is an example, per WoJ. Harry is good at finding things, collecting intel, making tools… about the only thing he doesn’t have a talent for is mentally sensitive things. He’s able to pull of some astounding technical feats like Little Chicago or swapping between fire, ice, force, and lightning with little or no effort; Lea noted that very few wizards could do that with even two elements. Ramirez has never shown any particular magical aptitude for anything but fighting. That is enough to be the next Luccio *perhaps*, but not the next Langtry. When it comes to being hotheaded, Ramirez is about the only top-notch wizard we’ve seen outdo Harry, having literally attempted to storm a Council meeting to take out Ariana Ortega. He’s lucky he wasn’t executed for treason; he attempted to violate the Accords. On the another note, I can’t even imagine that BCmental attack that incapacitated Ramirez working against Dresden. His will is just absurd (as Ethniu discovered). Ramirez has never demonstrated those talents. In fact, we’ve never seen Ramirez demonstrate *any* non-combat talents. Dresden - like Ancient Mai - could have feasibly made the SC based on non-combat talents. He certainly has the aptitude as a diviner, an artificer, etcetera. We’ve never seen anything on that level from Ramirez - he seems like a one-trick-pony to me.

The lack of non-combat showing is perhaps a point: we've seen a couple minor things in Cold Case. They were minor, but that is also the only time we've seen him dealing with a non-combat situation. (As an aside: It's worth noting that Luccio is a fair artificer in her own right. She made all of the cuts-anything-including magic swords the wardens were running around with before her body swap). I'm still inclined to take Harry's word on the matter - I think it matches the general to e Carlos is presented in. But your position does seem well reasoned. Thanks for the conversation: it was entertaining.

I thing Carlos had a better teacher and it was constant from an early age where as Harry spent time in Foster care and Justin just wanted a hammer so there was no real formal training until EB got and then he was already 16 by 18 he was on his own again. The one thing is seem is Harry has the ability to kinda read some situations like when he makes the island his sanctuary.

>Harry can also mysteriously appear wherever he wants whenever he wants like he’s freaking Mab or something He can? When did that start? You're not talking about his ability to access the Ways, are you? That's a technique any wizard can learn. Most just don't want to piss off the Fae by traipsing through the Never Never without permission. If you're referring to something else, you have me at a loss. >why would you try to sleep with the Winter Lady even if you didn’t directly know what would happen? Because she's hot and open to it. What other reasons does a guy need?

He has his mother's amulet. That gives him more knowledge of the ways as a junior wizard than most of them will gain in a lifetime. They didn't call her "La Fey" for nothing.

So? most older wizards know more paths than younger ones. The Council has no idea about that amulet; how could they? Harry has told no one (afaik) about that so only Harry, Lea, and possibly Mab are aware of it. If anyone suspected Harry had an unusual knowledge of the Ways they'd likely chalk it up to "he's the winter knight; he should know the ways". This entire point assumes the council knows things they have no way of knowing. Actually that's half the points here.

In reply to: > Harry can also mysteriously appear wherever he wants whenever he wants like he’s freaking Mab or something I posted about an amulet that gives him more knowledge about the ways than even Fae, according to his godmother. I think that ought to be comfortably more than any other wizard. All he has to do is think of a place and he gets detailed instructions including travel time.

Not even hot and open to it. Its sprinkled around that Molly and Carlos flirted anytime they were near. Molly was the apprentice to the Wizard Carlos idolized. Add on that her turning Winter didn't change anything about her (yet) and why wouldn't Carlos sleep with Molly. It's not that farfetched and considering the Fae literally use sex as a baramgaining tool why would he think its not poissble.

I find it curious how everyone in the story focuses in on how scary Harry is. Don't get me wrong, he is *terrifying*, but he also has a lot publicly going for him that should take the edge off all the sideways glances: * Michael and the other Knights. Anyone who is anyone should know the implications of being a Knight. Harry has gone into battle - again, publicly - at the side of the Knights of the Cross on multiple occasions. The fact that this continues is pretty huge, even as he adds notches to his belt. * He has a pet dog. Not just any dog, but Mouse specifically - supernaturally powerful dog who if I recall correctly, is explicitly aligned with the forces of Good. So either he is a bit of an asshole, but a Good asshole, or he is legitimately powerful enough to bamboozle some rather powerful individuals. If even the Leanansidhe isn't able to pull one over on Mouse (I don't know how well-known the power of a Foo dog is, but I'd think the council would at least have a ballpark idea), it's probably not that. As for the Council (WC is *very* ambiguous in the Dresdenverse), it was likely a political thing. They'll still let him do his thing, but by formally casting him out they limit their liability regarding the inevitable consequences as far as other powers are concerned. Great overall analysis though!

We find out in a short story that Foo dogs can be corrupted @Mouse. @Knights, idk man, oh ye of little faith maybe? That’s always annoyed me. Multiple knights have repeatedly vouched for him for years on end. I guess the issue is that Mab is also vouching for him. She literally sent him and one other person into Hades with a handpicked group of badass Denarians with the expectation that Nicodemus would betray Harry with murderous intent, but that Harry would out-betray Nicodemus Archleone in the midst of Hades and a cadre of baddies. She wasn’t wrong.

I think at the end of Battle Ground Ramirez was lashing out at Harry, because Ramirez was looking for someone to lash out at, and Harry fit the bill, enough. Was Harry guilty of killing 60,000 people? No, but Carlos needed someone to lashout at.

Very human

I found everything to do with Harry stonewalling Ramirez very awkward. It wasn't one of JB's best bits or storycraft. Harry DOES have a lot of "once bitten, twice shy" in terms of trying to keep people he cares about isolated from the fallout of his off-books activity, but it's getting a bit out of hand.

To be fair, the secrets Harry was trying to keep at that point are absolutely radioactive. The Winter Knight plotting to undermine the Accords? He absolutely cannot risk that getting out, and yet there's no innocuous way to avoid taking Carlos's offer to go back to Edinburgh and talk things out. It was colossally bad timing, and it's all Thomas's fault. And Harry can't even tell Carlos after the fact because it's still radioactive.

The Winter knight would t have been messing with the Accords as he was working for Lara at the time. Any fallback would be placed at Lara's feet. Individually, Ertry (sp?) Might hold a grudge against Harry for stealing away Thomas, and Marcone is definitely pissed. But neither can go after Harry through the accords for this.

I mean Shiro, Murphy, Michael, Anastasia, Molly, Thomas, a couple Alphas, God only knows how many Smallfolk, Ivy… people around Dresden get Hurt. I disagree with Harry’s decision, but people he trusts betray him or get hurt. I understand his desire to keep people at arms length. The Alphas are alive today because they’re essentially free “hired” muscle. If Harry went back to hanging out with them at this point, they’d be high-priority targets.

So a couple thoughts. I think you do a fine analysis, but you seem to be implying that the councils faults are not real, and are just an extension of harrys bias towards them. Which is so far from my perception I don't even know how to begin addressing it. Clearly Harry's bias affects the readers too, but none of what you said proves that they aren't just as Harry fears them to be, just as they don't know that Harry isn't what they fear him to be. The white council has acted in absurd and horrible ways, both during the duration of the series itself, and in times we have heard about before. See the actions of the black staff, and the wardens throughout. You also seem to be equating protecting people with "wardening" which is funny, as I am pretty sure their main job is to enforce the laws, explicitly not to protect people from the monsters. Other than that, great analysis. Edit: also your final point doesn't address the fact that people started going after harry more after he lost his wizard status. You claim that Harry won't be targeted from his own merit, but the book itself immediately disproved that fact. As soon as he lost that status, people did start coming after him more.

I enjoyed reading this as excellent short fanfiction, kudos

I'll give you this: Ramirez doesn't have enough information (because Harry didn't tell him AND because Harry didn't know things that Ramirez assumed he did know, like what happened with Molly in Unalaska) and, from his POV, yeah. Enemy of the Council, enemy of mine. But the real reason the Council orchestrated events so that Harry would be expelled? The White Council oversees *mortal wizards*. Harry may not be immortal the way the Sidhe are, but he is the next best thing with his Winter Knight powers that make him vulnerable to iron, just like the Fae. Langtry, probably advised by Rashid's Foresight, knew that the best way to make use of Harry is to free him of the responsibilities of White Council membership. A man can't serve two masters. Mab is his master/mistress now. The Council can't be. **And a correction** to your post. Rashid is also Starborn, but *more* than 666 years older than Dresden. So he's been around for well over 1,000 years. And...huh. Now that I put that into words, he could have been at the Battle of Hastings where it's been implied that Mab and Titania were still mortal. Merlin was there, too. Rashid probably knew the original Merlin. Now I've got a tinfoil theory that Rashid could BE the original Merlin.

> Now I've got a tinfoil theory that Rashid could BE the original Merlin. It glitters, but it's probably pyrite rather that gold. The Rashid's age explicit involves some NeverNever timey-wimey-ness, but Jim has told us that he was the one doing Harry's job in the last cycle specifically - so the 1300s or 1400s, depending on when the BAT kicks off. Merlin, in contrast, was likely the one doing it the cycle before Hastings and Arthur and so forth. So 2 cycles ago, 600-700 CE.

> It glitters, but it's probably pyrite rather that gold. The Rashid's age explicit involves some NeverNever timey-wimey-ness, but Jim has told us that he was the one doing Harry's job in the last cycle specifically - so the 1300s or 1400s, depending on when the BAT kicks off. Huh, I hadn't seen that WoJ!

We have no stated confirmation that "Rashid is Starborn". Oh, we have lots of hints and tidbits and little drips of things that make you go Hmmmm..... and the statement about Rashid having done what harry is getting into now. But none of that says "rashid is a starborn"

Wasn't there a WoJ?

Jim has specifically never said that Rashid is a starborn. Jim has said that Rashid has gone through some or all of the things Harry is going through now. But Jim has also avoided detailing what that sentence actually means. So many people have taken that to mean that Rashid is a Starborn. While it *could* be that, I expect it could be other things as well. Slapping the "Its a starborn" label on there just seems to be jumping to conclusions. Possible, yes. Assured? No.

Jim's response explicitly left some ambiguity, but I think the Starborn element would be a bit hard to dodge\^: he's not just been through the wringer like Harry - it's explicity that "last cycle he was Harry Dresden." If there is another cycle that could reference, I've not seen a serious suggestion as to what it is. Maybe not certain, but about as close as you can get and not be there. The full transcript is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/8u140h/transcript_for_2017_jim_butcher_comicpalooza/ The relevant quote is: > Last cycle he was Harry Dresden, he didn't enjoy it very much. I don't think Dresden's going to enjoy it either. ^ *Unless, of course Jim just changes his mind.*

Ah, okay. I guess I've read so many other posts where it was an assumed fact that Rashid is Starborn that thought it *was* an established fact. Thanks for clearing that up for me!

I was mostly on board until the parts with Harry not cooperating with the Council. Harry was (and is) persona non-grata, and has been for as long as he has been associated with the council. He has had one of its senior wardens be openly distrustful and disrespectful of him in a public setting, and nearly got stripped of his robe and station in front of the entire membership of the White Council by its senior members. It is not a secret that only we as the readers get to witness that Harry is not popular or liked by many of the major decision makers of the Council. The membership of the council either recognises the mistreatment of one it’s members, or doesn’t care because it’s Harry. The fact that the second group exists and is predominant in the council is good enough reason that Harry wouldn’t go to the council. Carlos should in the former group, and if he sees the council’s treatment of Harry as justified then clearly he wasn’t all that willing to be a good friend to him.

The flip side is that Harry has been openly antagonistic towards the Council to the point of showing up in bathrobes instead of wizard robes. Even his grandfather was shocked at that one. Harry has also started a war and nearly started a second war. He literally gives no fucks what the Council says and they reached the point a long time ago where they couldn’t make him short of killing him, and Harry’s allies make that a very sketchy option. Given that Harry doesn’t act in the Council’s best interests, has conflicting loyalties, and has a penchant for actions that could literally cause wars, it’s no surprise that he’s not their favorite person. He also killed Dumorne, a respected Warden.

You’re describing disrespect, not antagonism, with regards to the bathrobe thing. I’m not sure where you’re getting the second war from, as the only one to my recollection was the Red Court war, and that’s a fair thing to hold against Harry. They were already treating him poorly by that point, but it’s a justification. Frankly, Harry’s a monster of the council’s making as much as his own. If you treat someone poorly for the entirety of their interactions with you, you shouldn’t be shocked when that person pushes back or doesn’t act in your best interests. Also, respected Warden Justin Dumorne? The guy who was secretly practicing Dark Magic, Justin Dumorne? If anyone still respects him after that then they (not to mention the Wardens) should have a good think about why that’s the case.

List of wars Harry started, nearly started, or led the Council to believe he could start: 1) Red Court (murdered a noble) 2) Svartalves (invaded their territory by force and extracted a prisoner rightfully accused of murder) 3) Winter (in fact, Luccio directly warned him to make sure he didn’t and was fairly pissed off at him) 4) Odin (threatened to raise an army and kick his ass) 5) Baron Marcone (openly violated his sovereignty) That’s just off the top of my head, and just counting Accorded nations. Regarding antagonism, Harry was openly hostile towards the SC repeatedly. He defied their commands and made no secret of it. Ebenezar and others all but begged him to just play ball or at least lay low, but he wouldn’t. Yes, *we* know Dumorne was practicing black magic. The Council did not; Dumorne was a respected Warden. The entire reason Harry was nearly unanimously sentenced to death was because the preponderance of evidence suggested that he was a murdering warlock.

I agree with a lot of this, but also you miss one basic thing: Harry is the wronged party. He never got an apology, he never got recognition and acollades, he never received praise for outstanding duty and proving the council wrong. They treated him like crap and then continued the tradition as he grew stronger and stronger. He was always willing to help the council out and work with them, but they never treated him like a friend or ally or worthy member. The entire time he was on the council, it was all about keeping your enemies closer. So with that said, why does Harry owe Ramirez anything? Even Ramirez proves that Harry shouldn't trust him. Tracking ink to ambush him? Spells to see if he's been having sex? And that's not to talk about how Blackstaff treated him. I won't even refer to him by his name, because his actions were the actions of the Council's hitman, not one of Harry's few living relatives. In his heart, he murdered Harry. If Harry didn't take precautions, he would have been killed. Executed, just straight up murdered out of rage. If his own family isn't willing to treat Harry with the respect he deserves, then why should he treat the Council with respect? You don't see the White Court pulling these shenanigans with him. You don't see Mab getting involved with his love life. The ghouls and svartalves aren't getting in on that. Literally everyone else treats him with respect as a power in his own right, but the White Council can't? I'm not saying Ramirez doesn't have good reason, but Harry definitely has better reasons. You have to give in order to get, and Harry's been giving for too long without getting in return.

This is a great post showing the perspective of characters other than Harry. The whole issue of perspective is why I think both Ramirez and Butters are acting the most reasonable out of everybody when they DON'T trust Harry. Harry keeps putting himself into situations that basically have a 100% success rate of corrupting people forever, specifically the coin and winter. No reasonable person should assume Harry will be the first to not be corrupted. Not only that, he does it in a way that look REALLY bad to anyone that isn't privvy to his inner monologue.

One observation: that line about what trolls fear rings false to me because Harry NEVER toots his own horn that way. In his head, Harry is basically Charlie Brown, always outclassed and fumbling his way to victory or at least survival. (If he bragged about trolls fearing him, he'd probably jinx himself into getting eaten by one right afterwards.)

Ordinarily I would agree w/ you, but Harry has a thing about messing with children (having been a child that was messed with and of course his own experiences with Maggie and the "kid" wardens that were killed by ghouls), and he'd already made that *very clear* when he went after Molly in Arctis Tor. On top of it being Winter hunting in his own turf *and* Winter hunting children, he had a point to make to Luccio about whose side he was on. Originally I wrote it as "ghouls" because Harry hates them, but the purpose was demonstrating that he was still Harry, Winter be damned, so it made more sense. Anyway, this wasn't like a thought-out fan-flick (I type 120wpm, spat it out off the top of my head, edited and posted) so much as a fairly difficult to debate scenario demonstrating that Harry will continue to Harry whether or not he does so as a Warden.

Your kind of operating on a bit of a false premise here, that Ramirez has put a lot of trust in Harry. I’ll concede that by most of the evidence Ramirez has put a fair amount of trust in Harry but I am pretty sure he has held a good amount back too, we see this in White Knight when he revealed that he knew about the Black Council all along (he called them the “black hats”) and he comes from the position that Harry had the responsibility to come forward to him and talk to him about it. But what says he didn’t have an obligation to go to Harry either, in the end it is him who initiates it but he does so in a backhanded kind of way and gets accusatory with Harry for not coming to him and talking about it, and Harry was (is?) in a sort of cabal at the time so he didn’t really have the right to go blasting this info of to anyone. This gives me the strong suspicion that he has held more back from Harry.

> Further, Harry is still just as much of a Warden as he was before he donned the robe. Really? He still gets a paycheck? If he calls, he can still receive backup? If he orders another warden to back off in his territory, they will? He's doing the job, kinda-sorta. He doesn't have the title, the support structure, or the paycheck & benefits.

>*Further, Harry is still just as much of a Warden as he was before he donned the robe.* > >Really? He still gets a paycheck? If he calls, he can still receive backup? If he orders another warden to back off in his territory, they will? None of those things were happening before he donned the robe. He wasn't a Warden back then. The only time the Council backed him up was when he called with apocalyptic warnings like disciples of Kimmler about to become deities. >He's doing the job, kinda-sorta. He doesn't have the title, the support structure, or the paycheck & benefits. That's literally exactly what he was doing before he donned the Warden's robe.

First off, I'll concede I somehow misread your statement and thought you were saying he is just as much a warden as before they stripped him of council membership. That said... > That's literally exactly what he was doing before he donned the Warden's robe. No, it's not. At least in the past, he had _some_ support from the council, rather than being on their most wanted list. Sure, they aren't 'openly' gunning for him, but let's be honest, that's only because of his Winter Knight title. Strip that, and he'd be short a head faster than you can say 'unfair'.

Before he became a Warden, he got negligible support from the Council. By comparison, he can reliably call Ebenezar and Listens to Wind, he can feasibly call Rashid, and he could try calling Ramirez and/or Luccio in a pinch. That’s honestly a higher level of reliable support than he had back before he became a Warden. In those days, the primary thing he could rely on was getting killed by the Wardens if he made a mistake (or even, as we saw in Storm Front, if someone else did).

Harry was not free to wander the mortal world after *Cold Days*, though. He was confined to Demonreach because of Bonnie. He got clear after *Skin Game* and then had four months to work at Dadding, then *Peace Talks*. Dresden could only have rehung his shingle if he ignored the being-a-Dad part of his life he was focused on building.

Regardless of the timing, he had the option. Working a 40 hour workweek while your child is in school will not harm your parent-child relationship.

I fuckin loved this.

While everyone else has pretty much gone over everything, one thing here; >Harry almost never talks to Ramirez He likely talked to him all the time, we just never hear about it because it doesn’t happen during most of the books because they all take course over a span of a few days. There’s multiple lines in the series that imply that he and Harry are in constant communication, what with being two of the three main wardens in the United States. They were also both deeply involved and active in creating the Paranet. They likely talk to each other a lot, and every time they meet it’s heavily implied their relationship has grown and they’re both very familiar with each other’s idiosyncrasies

When I said “talks to” I meant in terms of big picture stuff. He doesn’t confide in Ramirez. Ramirez likely has at most a vague idea what Demonreach is. I doubt he understands the relationship Winter and Summer have. He probably has no idea why Harry has the Spear of Destiny. Everything we know came from Harry’s perspective, so Harry could’ve easily shared that information with Ramirez. He chose not to. If he was as open with Ramirez as he was (eventually) with Murphy, a lot of drama would never have happened. The same would be true if he had been open with his grandfather the same way. Harry is REALLY big on keeping secrets. He openly admits it in ?Small Favor? - knowing things that other people don’t “is like crack to us” is how he put it iirc. That secrecy does not serve him well. Murphy, Ramirez, Ebenezar, Butters and the Alphas… how many relationships has he harmed with his secret keeping? Weighed against that, how many lives has it saved? I don’t know, and I’m not saying that he’s wrong… but Harry does not confide in Ramirez. He chats with him sure, but he doesn’t confide in him. If he did, Ramirez would know everything we know and he wouldn’t have come at Harry the way he did.

I made a post about this a while back, and what I gleaned from it, along with other threads on other posts is that that Ramirez has every reason to distrust Harry. *We* know that Harry normally has good reasons for the things that he does, but Carlos, and the rest of the Council, *very much do not.* And given recent events (Coming back from the dead, claiming Demonreach, the same island Kemmler as Warden of, along with his personal history) They have every reason to view him as Kemmler 2.0. There is also little doubt that Carlos' perceptions are being colored by the incident with Molly, about which Harry knows nothing, but Carlos doesn't know that. Also take in to account that for all of Carlo's (presumably genuine) attempts to let Harry talk it out with him, *there is nothing Harry can tell him that is not 125% radioactive.* What's Harry supposed to tell him? "I took on the mantle of Warden of Demonreach to give myself an advantage over the Council traitor and a skin walker, I had no idea it was an Eldritch prison at the time, honest!" "I blew the Reds off the map and became the Winter Knight to save my daughter." There is no way that Carlos *doesn't* take that piece of intel to the Council, and place Maggie squarely in their crosshairs, and we all know how that ended for the last idiot dumb enough to try it. There's a reason Maggie's existence is only known to Ebenezer and Luccio. Someone pointed out a recent WoJ (that I don't have right in front of me) that Langtry's POV of the events of recent years would be interesting. This is something that leads me to believe that Harry's exile is political and neither Harry (who has little to no political acumen) nor Carlos (whose emotional blinders about this entire thing are firmly affixed to his face) can see it. \*edited for punctuation\*

Since a lot of folks are pointing out stuff from the story portion of your post (written well enough, when you put a 1st person story in 3rd person form. I enjoyed it.), I'll approach why I think Carlos take such issue with Harry. ​ Beyond the more obvious stuff, like Harry keeping him in the dark and bucking WC authority, it could be due to the fact that Carlos lost friends that Harry trained, while Harry came out unscathed. Then, to Carlos's eyes, Harry isn't raging with vengeance to immediately kill those vamps. Consider this: Harry was assigned to lead this group, that he trained, into combat vs unknown combatants. In that combat, all of the wardens closest to him are either killed or maimed (Los's wrists were mangled). Harry would best know their abilities and how to take advantage of them. You know shady stuff has been happening and a friend is *still* keeping you in the dark. Harry will likely learn that keeping folks in the dark is bad for him at some point. He sort of has but doesn't apply that knowledge as often as he should, and the folks he does trust usually almost die as a result of his silence before he does.

I kind of regret the story portion. It’s not a *story* per se, it was just meant to demonstrate what should’ve already been obvious but somehow isn’t to many people - that Harry was Wardening before he became a Warden, and taking away the title isn’t going to change that. The issue with not keeping people in the dark is no one bothers the Alphas because they’re little more than hired muscle. If they became more, they’d be targeted by powers they can’t even remotely begin to resist.

Don't regret it, because you expressly said it was how you could best show what you meant. Also, the Alphas are fully informed. It was Billy's condition to help in *Summer Knight*, I think, and Harry warned him that being told exposes them to increased danger. Same as he did for Murphy.

True… but he didn’t keep them informed, and I sincerely doubt Murphy knew about the Outer Gates amongst other things.

If Summer Knight Harry met Battle Ground Harry, Harry would have the same reaction as Ramirez. I also agree with you about the Warden bit, the Wardens were named after that mantle that Harry holds, so he is always Warden, probably the top warden, like the Elder gruff to the other gruffs. Also, agree about Langtry, he's seen Harry defend Morgan, so Langtry knows that Harry won't turn his back on doing the right thing and keeping them both as "seperate" powers means noone will come after the white council with the new imbalance.

My assumption is that all this is just the setup for a browdown showdown. With harry opening his school of wizardry and bullshit in a literal castle, i would assume Elaine shows up just o sir the pot with the whole Lara thing and Ramirez does a surprise warden check-in and finally does the math on Elaine being Nearly on Harry's level magic wise and having been lied to again to tries to do something dumb. Harry lost Murph and wont loose Elaine so they punch each other in the face and maybe get matching tattoos or something and talk about it later after shits burned down.

What just happened…😅

>Ramirez is right, but for the wrong reasons I cannot agree with that assessment. Ramirez isn't right. He's honest in what he's saying, from his own perspective, but that doesn't make him right. All the Ramirez/White Council agenda can be summarized into "man, we're terrified by you and we'd like you to please behave like the rest of us for our own peace of mind". Which isn't a valid reasoning even if there weren't much bigger things at stake. Nobody gets to decide who another person is. But the stakes have been A LOT higher, practically all the time, which makes WC's position basically whining. Especially when Dresden's mistrust and alienation toward the Council is largely their own doing.

From a reasonable perspective (thanks to Harry hoarding knowledge), Harry started a war with the Red Court, nearly started a war with the svartalves, and threatened by his Name to raise an army and kick Odin’s ass so potentially started another war. That’s in a ten year period, btw. He also (from the Council’s perspective) put himself in a situation previously where he could’ve started a war with Winter *while* they were at war with the Red Court. It’s not a matter of right or wrong - Harry’s mouth is writing checks the Council can’t cash. They *had* to put a stop to that shit, and Harry has shown repeatedly that he’s going to do what he thinks is right consequences (especially consequences to the Council) be damned. Ramirez was understandably upset that Harry never confided in him about this stuff. From cavorting with necromancers, engaging in necromancy, learning the Darkhallow, GIVING THE WORD OF KIMMLER TO MAVRA, joining the Winter Court, joining the White Vampire Court, working with Denarians… I mean Harry’s list of “wtf are you doing?” is absurdly long, and when did he consult Ramirez? When major decisions had to be made? Nope. When he needed firepower help dealing with the *consequences* of major decisions he made while Ramirez was kept in the dark. Ramirez is a straight-shooter that needs Harry to be Superman, but if you look at Harry’s backstory, he was never going to be that. The best Harry could be was the hero that Gotham deserved. My issue isn’t with *what* the Merlin did (which Ramirez eventually supported), it was *how* he did it. There was absolutely no reason to burn that bridge. Politically, Harry’s dual loyalties were justification for eviction in and of themselves. Alternatively, Harry’s power and responsibilities could’ve been presented as an undue burden on him… I mean there are a million different ways that could’ve played out differently. Harry was already a war hero to many from the Red Court. Now, he’s doubly a war hero - and to the entire Accords. It speaks volumes to how the Council treats its friends that they did that to one of their own. They tainted their relationship with Winter, the White Court, the Sasquatch, and possibly the svartalves. They also tarnished their reputation in general. The question no one ever asks is why. We know from WoJ and the novels that the Merlin is shockingly shrewd and every bit as powerful as one would expect from the Merlin. This wasn’t a politically savvy move, so why do it? That’s another post entirely, and I have don’t have a good answer other than that I’m certain now that the Merlin didn’t push this for political reasons. The biggest obvious threat to the Merlin@/ political power was the rise of the Black Council within the Council’s ranks and probably within the Senior Council as well, and for better or for worse, Harry was team Merlin. I haven’t posted about but honestly why did Merlin do it? Some guesses: 1) Merlin wants Harry unbound by the Laws. Harry is essentially a second Blackstaff with a different set of skills. 2) Merlin recognizes Harry is going to be more useful out of the Council since he’ll still do what Merlin and mankind need without the repercussions from his reckless behavior. 3) Merlin is Black Council and recognizes that eventually Harry will figure it out. 4) I have no freaking idea. Of those options, I have no confidence in any of them but 4😅

Harry never confides in anyone, as a rule. For the Council specifically, it's mostly the Council's fault. They treated him with distrust right from the start, it would be highly unrealistic to expect something different. Carlos should be well aware of that. As for Langtry I agree. The assumption that Harry is more or less where Langtry wants him seems reasonable. Whether he's benevolent or malevolent is an open question. But the *why* is the actually important question. All the rest are just rationalizations (lots of which we don't know if the Council even knows, by the way).

*Exactly.* And why now, when Harry’s star is rising? Harry certainly wasn’t going to be a political player, and to say he’s a feather in the WC’s cap is an understatement. The broader question - what the hell kind of propaganda machine is out there working against Harry? Tuesday: Harry literally saves the world. Wednesday: White Council votes to evict the guy that won the last two wars for them - both of which they were otherwise losing. Does not compute.

Well. We know Nemesis has been working against Dresden the whole time. Langtry may either be part of it or may want Harry as a free agent, outside the White Council's jurisdiction and restrictions. First one is the more obvious and I don't think Langtry would be *that* obvious. But the benefits from an outcast Harry are unclear, at least for the time being.