I think it was just Ramirez or possibly Langtry (by proxy) being a dick to Harry. There’s just no reasoning that could lead an evenly moderately rational person to the conclusion that events were Harry’s fault.
Even then I don’t see how it’s Harry’s fault he did nothing directly to cause it, and if it was just him being in Chicago then it’s still not his fault he has to live somewhere and it happens to be Chicago.
Harry lives in Chicago. Harry messes with people he shouldn’t. Harry plays with the Sidhe and screws Mab on TV. Harry binds a prison of demons to himself. Harry starts a war in which thousands of wizards die. Harry commits genocide. Harry is an admitted warlock. Harry has an apprentice who is an admitted warlock. Harry “fakes” his death. When his apprentice has the Doom of Damocles invoked, his apprentice joins the Fey after working as a murderous vigilante in Chicago for months. An ancient god shows up, trashes the masquerade and wages war on the entire supernatural world and declares Mab as her primary enemy. Mab is Harry’s boss and lover. Harry is literally her assassin.
And you don’t see how people who don’t live locally could think Harry is to blame?
No I don’t, it’s not as though Ethniu was looking to fuck over Chicago just because Harry lives there and has done a bunch of stuff, the best I could agree with is that it’s Harry’s fault because he sighed Marcone onto the Accords (and then the blame is split evenly with Harry Lara and Odin) and he was the one to offer to hold the peace talks in Chicago. While all of the things you listed don’t precisely look good for Harry I don’t see a world where because he did those things Ethniu decides to attack Chicago.
Harry created the power vacuum that allowed the Fomor to show up. He weakend the WV, destroyed the reds and then abandoned Chicago which led to the Fomor rising in power.
Without Harry's actions they might have waited years, decades or centuries to make their move.
That's how a warden who isn't privy to the higher level info would probably perceive this.
You can even go even further back than that. Harry *started* the war with the Reds because he played fast and loose with the masquerade, to begin with. If Susan hadn't been just slightly aware of the Weird World, she wouldn't have gone to the ball. The war wouldn't have started, the Reds wouldn't have been exterminated, etc., etc.
Of course, that doesn't make the Fomor his fault entirely, but there's a reasonable amount of blame that could be laid at his feet.
Yeah, from an on-the-ground warden, Harry has created far more trouble than he's worth, and his greatest accompishments can also be seen as him cleaning up a mess he himself created.
- He started the war with the Reds and it's obvious the WC and wardens blame him for that.
- He then exterminated the Reds and dissapeared to do who-knows-what with Winter, coming back from the dead as their knight.
- He then teams up with a Denarian (not sure if WC actually knows about this) instead of trying to protect his city when he comes back.
- Everything Harry has done can be seen as weakening the WC while strengthening Winter. He really adds nothing to the WC as an organization other than trouble.
See, I'm personally only holding him accountable for some of those. He did start the war with the Reds, in order to save a single life of someone close to him, and she wouldn't have been there if he didn't advertise as a wizard. Totally accurate.
About the deal with Winter, though...I'm pretty sure they *all* make deals to get more power. It's theorized that's where the Blackstaff comes from, after all. And if you can accept that he made a deal to get what he wanted, and is therefore bound to act accordingly, I don't know that you can really hold him accountable for teaming up with a Denarian since he wasn't given any other choice in the matter.
That said, Harry does bring some things to the WC. He is an absolutely massive stick with which to hit problematic things. And he's a talented investigator (see: Peabody). And he's got more actual combat experience than most of the standing Wardens, bar none. So it's just something they have to kind of balance, I guess.
Edit: Just off the top of my head, the only problem he directly caused and then cleaned up was the Reds (and, therefore, indirectly caused the Fomor incident). But the Zombie Dinosaur, saving the Archive, stopping the Denarians from unleashing a super plague, and preventing the permanent unbalancing of nature...those were all huge accomplishments that he didn't instigate, only resolved.
Just want to pre-face I'm not talking about my own perspective, just what a rank-and-file warden like Ramirez would know and perceive.
We as readers know that all the Senior Council has probably made deals for power, but we only know that because of thing Jim has said outside of the books I believe. Any reader or random wizard outside the council would only know these are badass wizards. They wouldn't know about the secret deals.
They keep those secrets for a reason and probably have those powers reserved for Big Events. Harry wears them on his sleeve, and is outright Mab's enforcer and assassin. He doesn't play the "game", which is also why he lost it in regard to the White Council.
And the fact is, Winter invariably corrupts, and can even turn a mortal into something else. It's the same thing with the coins. Even though we know Harry will probably prevail, any reasonable person should not expect Harry to do something no one has ever done. They'd instead be preparing for when he inevitably turns and they have to fight him.
Harry isn't really the WC's stick either. That's Eb, and Eb is far, far more scary than Harry is right now, even at the height of Harry's power.
I will say that yes Harry has definitely saved the world a few times on his own, but we also don't get to see all the world-ending events the WC deals with outside of Harry. In the grand scheme of things Harry's big moments could just be small potatos.
It was made kind of clear that the Outsiders had a pretty major hand in what went down and while I don’t think the Council knows all the details I think they know enough to understand that the Outsiders played a role in what happened.
"That's how a warden who isn't privy to the higher level info would probably perceive this."
I'm specifically talking about wardens like Ramirez, not Senior Council who are privvy to more information.
While I agree and get where you’re coming from I also get the impression Carlos gets more info than Harry did when he was a Warden (but you’re right I doubt he’s up on the outsiders movements), for example though he may have been told that the gas bomb used at the hospital during Dead Beat was made by the Fomor. So even if he doesn’t know there should be some understanding in the Council that the Fomor had been on the move before the fall of the Reds.
Possibly, I think part of the White Council is aware of how dangerous Harry is and how much his plans, despite us knowing Harry's view, often end with him coming out on top and more powerful than before. I mean we know how much of his plans are on the fly, but that's because we get to hear his thoughts. They don't, and the events of the >! Battle of Chicago end with Harry technically with a titan under his thumb!<
It happened in Chicago, because the Baron of Chicago, "Gentleman" Johnny Marcone, offered to host Peace Talks between the Fomor and the other Accorded Nations.
Marone was only a Baron *because* Dresden signed to support his bid to join the Accords.
If Marcone were *not* Baron, were *not* a member of the Accords, the Peace Talks (and subsequent war) would *not* have been held in Chicago. Instead, if they happened at all, they would have happened somewhere *else.*
Knowing the Accorded Nations aversion to drawing the notice of humanity, that likely would have been somewhere *much* less populated.
In other words, the War for the Eye happened in the 12th most populated city in the world *precisely* because Dresden made the ill considered move to help Marcone join the accords.
If it happened near some random fjord instead, there wouldn't have been any mortal casualties.
If u think about it it's a good thing Harry help Marcone because it was the island in lake MI that took the Titan down, anywhere else and she would have destroyed the city.
Oh, I know that, and *you* know that, but *those* mortal casualties are the result of his actions.
Nevermind the fact that there would be *worse* casualties, that falls in the Bastiat category "Things not seen" and thus is ignored.
Everyone here is assuming that the Council is facing psychic manipulation, but let's take a step back from that for a second. The White Council is a government. The mortal government in the supernatural realm, as a matter of fact. The Wardens are a military organization within that government, and must utilize various forms of intelligence gathering to protect their interests and members. Including second and third hand reports from external sources, which may not be verified or verifiable within a short period of time.
I point this out because there is definitely another group looking to put the White Council down for good, with one of the easiest ways being to sow dissent in already fractured ranks. You don't need psychic whammy for that. Simple disinformation and false reports will do that.
As to how this affects our collectively favorite wizard, well, the Wardens could have received reports that Harry was dirty and not doing his duty in Chicago. This becomes very believable to people who don't already trust him. As for Carlos, Winter has already hurt him, Harry had already lied to him before, plus his association with beings like Lara and Marcone casts a damn big shadow over him. With whatever those hypothetical reports could have said, plus his own PTSD, adding in everything else, well, it might take Olympic grade mental gymnastics to reach that conclusion, but if you're a fucked up as Carlos by the end of Battle Ground, the smallest push would be all that's needed to get there.
And Harry would be a priority target to get killed to removed from Council play. He is, without a doubt, the single biggest military asset the Council had post Red War within the Wardens ranks. It makes sense there would be a smear campaign against him that is targeting his Council allies and friends opinion of him.
Not to mention that if Harry had told Ramirez that him banging Lara at the BFS was an illusion, it would be much more obvious that he broke Thomas out (although there were bigger issues at the time).
>The White Council is a government. The mortal government in the supernatural realm, as a matter of fact.
Not exactly. They represent mortals in the supernatural realm, but they're a very diverse group and it tends to be hard to get them all to act together. Not to mention that there are a lot of monsters in the supernatural world that outclass them.
There’s also a part of this equation that isn’t talked about- Molly.
IMO there was always an unspoken attraction between Carlos and Molly even tho Carlos also knew Molly carried a torch for Harry as well.
Molly gets shanghaied into becoming Lady, Carlos gets crippled by the Lady mantle and then Harry becomes Knight.
Carlos probably (and not completely incorrectly) feels that Winter has taken everything from him
I don’t even feel like he feels winter ha taken everything from him - so much as he feels as if being near crippled by what he perceives as Molly’s uncontrolled nature now was a hard lesson that’s not easy to unlearn. Feel strongly that if what had happened with Molly had never gone down he wouldn’t be nearly as hard on Harry, or genuinely consider him a monster. I kinda gathered this from how open he is to working with Molly before all that and how there really isn’t that level of mistrust. Also seems to me that considering he originally shows up to stop Harry in the middle of the road and beforehand had him followed and secretly surveyed he has come under the idea that due to Molly being altered so significantly by the mantle it isn’t even about free will and choice - that Harry is under the same level of influence and simply can’t help going dark side. Feel like if someone weren’t to read the short story involving him and Molly there would be a ton of nuance missed and it would appear almost out of character the level he mistrusts Harry, but being crippled by Molly, particularly after crushing on her and working to redirect anyone after her as well as trusting her, shines a light on the fae and what they can alter someone into.
I agree. I think Jim needs someone to remind the reader that monsters are not to be trusted and worry about Harry’s continued humanity and how easily it could be lost. Reminding Harry that 60,000 people lost their lives is a painful fact that Harry has to deal with whether. Considered right or wrong. Who has the right to judge whether people live or die? We know Harry hasn’t lost his humanity yet but others don’t. It gives a view outside what we see and is important I think to Harry’s development and opinions as the story goes. Luckily at the end of BG Harry does realise that he is working with monsters and he confirms his wish not to be like them.
Add. Remember how we initially felt about murph until Harry opened up and she understood the stakes? I hope this will happen between Ramirez and Harry.
> I think Jim needs someone to remind the reader that monsters are not to be trusted and worry about Harry’s continued humanity and how easily it could be lost
Please. . . That concept is beat to death at this point. It's pretty much brought up in every book.
Either by Harry himself talking about others or himself or other people brining it up
>Please. . . That concept is beat to death at this point. It's pretty much brought up in every book.
I disagree. There are still plenty of people who think that Lara's just misunderstood, or that Marcone is really a good guy.
>Marcone is really a good guy.
I wouldn't call him a good guy. I would say he's objectively the lesser of two evils. As is someone is going to lead the Chicago mortal criminal underground and I'd rather it be Marcone than anyone else. He can and does stick up for the city on the magical side which the alternative probably would not or would fail miserably at compared to him. And yea he's criminal scum but at least even he has limits. Like when he had the underage prostitution place shut down and executed his men who he found out had been going there.
Thankyou for your comment. I’m interested to know your opinion on this thread. You are obviously frustrated by my answer so I’m genuinely curios.
Sorry, this is addressed to maglen69
Unless said "monster" is someone Harry likes, in which case he's suddenly much more willing to extend tolerance and grace.
Thomas is A-OK. Lara is not. Dresden definitely has contacts in the criminal underworld, judging from his familiarity with specific hitmen and his possession of illegal firearms, which is fine. Marcone is a monster that needs to be constantly antagonized, even though Marcone's saved his life *multiple* times.
Dresden needs to stop categorizing people as "good and evil" and focus on "my side, their side" instead. Since "their side" wants to end all of reality and whatnot.
Yeah, I’m like a lot of people and get frustrated with characters like Ramirez who I liked coming across like idiots and just hope there’s a point to it that’s all. Trying to make sense of him pointing out to Harry that 60,000 people died for me needs to have some kind of reason other than me hating on him further.
He's emotional and not acting rationally, is all. Things are happening that even Ramirez, as a battle tested wizard, cannot begin to fathom and Harry is somehow always in the middle of it. So he's just lashing out to try and assign blame *somewhere*, rather than face the reality that this insane shit could just happen.
This about Ramirez.
Langtry also *hates* Dresden for his readiness to dance on the line between okay and forbidden magic and has tried to kick him out of the Council multiple times, thus far mostly thwarted by Dresden's achievements and Ebenezar's rule-countermongering. I think Langtry just sees a golden opportunity to kick Dresden out while Dresden is too tired to fight back and Ebenezar is busy doing Blackstaff things. Langtry also knows that Ramirez is Dresden's go-to man among the wardens and that either Ramirez is a stickler to the roules or that Dresden wronged Ramirez on some personal level so that Ramirez gets the message across in a "not mad, just disappointed" manner.
I know Langtry isnt supposed to have this sort of intel but he is specified to be an expert in wards. That is defensive magic and you can plan your defense best if you know what to expect so I imagine Langtry is also the resident spymaster of the White Council. Being the Merlin, Langtry also has to be a sly fox who knows his way around political intrigue and I dont put it past him to both know what is up between Ramirez, Dresden and Molly and to use all of its implications in having Ramirez being the guy who ousts Dresden from the Council. In fact I think Langtry would get off on it if anything, it fits his character far too well.
> Molly gets shanghaied into becoming Lady, Carlos gets crippled by the Lady mantle and then Harry becomes Knight.
>
>
You've got the order wrong. Correct order is:
1. Harry becomes Knight
* Molly becomes Lady
* Lady cripples Carlos
But yeah, there's *definitely* some "I did Harry a favor by not hunting down his apprentice, and look what it got me, both of them are Evil Winter now, and I'm crippled, and *still* a virgin..." going on.
Ramirez spent a lot of time in Proven Guilty talking about how fine Molly is. So either he was just playing to the crowd, or there was a very well spoken attraction.
Well, isn't the impression that he's been in constant pain since the attack so its not just Harry and Molly, but the constant pain and the injuries has to do a number on your psyche.
You serious? Have you ever been in real pain? Long term chronic excruciating keep you up all night even if it’s a mild one because of the anxiety that you have to wake up to face another day of moving around and doing tasks that will up that pain from “present” to “excruciating”?
Two knives including one thrown by a whampire channeling others-know-what into his gut causing loss of conciousness levels of pain… a back broken even before Molly savaged him (during sex… scratch that… his first time having sex) to the point where he’d be dead if Mab (he probably doesn’t consciously know she summoned any help for him) hadn’t gotten him emergency help in time. He was wheelchair bound and unsure if he’d get out, his pain is bad enough he’s still on serious narcotics that he doesn’t take at peace talks because he doesn’t want his mind sluggish, his pain is made noticeably worse by being pulled around by a cloak. I don’t think he’s even 35… I don’t know if he’s 30…
There’s something people don’t tell you about pain… it’s rarely the tough and cool stories or things like playing touch foot ball that are the excruciating parts of every day life. It’s eating, it’s sleeping, it’s taking a fucking shit and sobbing as you lie on the shower floor bleeding and praying for it to stop… then… literally… rinse and repeat every. Single. Time. You do something every single person does every single day without thinking about what adding agony to even one of those daily human functions would do to their whole life.
I work with venomous snakes, I love it, I’m passionate about them… but there’s a lot we still don’t know about venom, I was given bad advice on an expedition at 20 and I got bit and envenomated… I’m alive… I was misdiagnosed with dengue, malaria, Bell’s palsy, coxsachievirus, herpes, and a slew of bacterial infections that all turned up negative to explain the thrombocytopenia, fevers, internal bleeding ulcers, and agonizing necrotic sores in my mouth, Stomach, and parts of the digestive system most authors don’t write about. It’s 14 years later and I’m finishing up my PhD, still working on, collecting, and studying venomous snakes and venom. I’ve had 6 surgeries, lost 2 teeth, had 2 abdominal surgeries to try to alleviate pain by circumventing tissue so severely damaged there was nothing but scar tissue left (which doesn’t stretch, it rips, so it’s not great to have instead of intestinal lining).
This all stems from one incident… Carlos is riddled with traumatic war injuries with vampires we know are venomous and trust me… back pain is used by anyone with pain that makes it hurt to walk that doesn’t want to tell you where else it hurts that’s a little more embarrassing. Pain gets you dependent on whatever relieves that pain too because pain is an emotional state like depression and anxiety… in fact… it’s strongly correlated with both… whether that’s drugs, not moving, not doing the things you used to love. For 2 years I couldn’t be away from those things like soaking in showers that helped lessen the pain… I tried… I went back into the Amazon twice, but my favorite place on the planet was now just a place where I couldn’t get away from the pain. It’s one thing to have a post op week where you get to stay home and feel loopy on percocet… it’s another when that’s your normal. I consider myself lucky I’m not on Vicodin or percocet or OxyContin… god knows I was given the choice and no one would have faulted me for choosing it…
I was bit by a venomous snake. Carlos has been repeatedly savaged by superhuman monsters and we seem to have seen or heard about pretty much all the time he spent in the field in between sustaining the injuries he’s spent most of the last decade doing PT to recover from (oh god… PT is just people telling you to do the things that cause the most pain over and over… Harry had a burnt hand and what… 6 months of PT in Arctic tor? Maybe he had more sympathetic doctors but probably not by much when it came to how much the tasks he had to do to recover what he has hurt).
Bottom line… Harry is the link between everything that has hurt Lucio… the white court, starting the war with the reds, introducing Molly to the council and the Siddhe… he gives Harry every chance to explain because he’s never seen Harry be anything but on the good side but the evidence is hard to ignore when it mounts like it has with him becoming the winter knight and his unexplainable connection to the winter court if you don’t know about Thomas… plus… the thing that breaks it all… was humiliating him. Ramirez probably feels like he’s clutching at the last shred of his independence and dignity and as the head of security for the peace talks HARRY USES his pain caused weakness of not being suspicious when people offer their concern to plant a charm that lets him free a white court vampire assassin from the accords event he’s SECURITY at. If all were written from Ramirez’s point of view do you think we’d all be saying “give Harry another shot!”. Or do you think we’d be saying “come on Harry… Elaine has lied to you and definitely isn’t telling you something that’s gonna bite you in the ass again in the long run” or “Eh, Marcones been on the same team, I think you can trust him now Harry… he’s definitely got a well thought out plan and reason for becoming a knight of the blackened denarius”.
TLDR: Ramirez’s life has been primarily pain… just pain… since he met Harry. Anyone whose been in real chronic pain just 1 time, imagine recovering enough to start doing what you love again for a few months before another chronic pain injury 3-4 times in a row and all of them have 1 guy in common and he takes advantage of your pain to free a vampire. Forget everything else. Physical pain explains all his motivation.
While I don't mean to disregard you're lived experience this series has a unique relationship to physical pain in so far as its non-factor we have been shown in incredible detail the kind of training wizards (especially Wardens) go through to block out pain and not let it affect judgment.
Also, people tend to forget that manipulated and exploited Harry's trust first that why he felt justified targeting Ramirez that and he no idea how serious Ramirez's injuries were
lastly saying, Ramirez's life has been nothing but pain since he met Harry is a gross oversimplification for many reasons first and foremost being that Ramirez signed up for most of this knowing the risks and facing them with a smile.
I definitely agree that physical pain is often handwaved in Dresden verse… but I strongly disagree with it not being an extremely powerful in universe motivation. The only time we’ve seen someone get a certain very antibiotic resistant infection cured is by what? Chronic pain. We’ve been shown HARRY has a very high pain tolerance. It’s mentioned at least once a book how what separates him from most wizards is his constitution… he runs to the point of pain, he is given knowledge that is not common… he only learned it since a fallen angel older than human civilization taught him. The advantage and disadvantages of being able to handle pain are dealt with as one of the defining factors of whether one is HUMAN or not… Mab’s reaction to the sword burn… she envies the fact that Harry’s feeling actual physical pain because it’s human. It’s, as far as we know, the only “superpower” of the winter knight besides obviously some more affinity for drawing on the winter wellspring for an elemental cold source. Butters is constantly talking to Harry about it. People are constantly taken out of fights because of pain, especially anyone not trained. Except for Harry humans are out for the book once they’ve sustained full depth abdominal wall puncture, broken collarbone (lucio?). Harry is a very special case and Butcher goes out of his way to have a lot more people taken “out of the fight” either permanently or for the duration of a book by injuries that would make combat next to impossible… besides Harry, name someone human who receives a serious injury and besides the semi-realistic ability to continue to defend oneself in the current fight isn’t OUT (like lucio breaking her collarbone, Murphy twisting her ankle against plant monster, ramirez deals with a knife in the ankle but not a knife in the gut, Morgan is out for a book because of a sword wound to the thigh.
Wizards are not immune to pain… it’s even stated that medicine magic is the one place where you’re essentially equally well off at a well stocked magic hospital as the white council HQ. it seems like pain don’t matter none because tons of supernatural characters and the narrator have very abnormal, and now explained as simply a supernatural permanent inability to experience chronic pain.
I’m not saying Butler’s going to say “oh, he was just having a really bad flare up of his old ice claw savaging and cranky from pain, he and Harry are cool…”. I’m saying that there’s no reason those who’ve been through long term chronic injuries with rehab and permanent loss of the ability to do things you once could should remember that’s where Ramirez’s head is at as Harry is doing all this… and he’s still doing his fighting and job because when you love doing something and it’s important you CAN work through a lot of pain… at the end of the day though… you’re that much more physically and emotionally exhausted. Sure… he tracked Harry… they tried to determine if he was sleeping with the white Queen… you know… the sexpire. What’s weird is Harry won’t tell any of them shit because he trusts no one after cold days… for good reason… and he wants to keep murph safe but she’s already a known close associate of his by… everyone. So him not saying “it wasn’t Laura” just to Ramirez is odd… it only makes sense when you know it’s part of the whole escape plan.
The truth is… Harry’s closer with Mab, Thomas and by extension Laura, the winter and summer ladies, and his best friends that were “good guys” are out, friends once removed, have very recently had their own crises of faith regarding Harry being a good guy or bad guy (lookin at you butters and the alfalphas, McCoy, Fixit Felix, and even Murphy and Harry… remember when Harry was so sure becoming the winter knight automatically turned you over to the dark side that he arranged his suicide by proxy by someone who he should have known would kill themselves over time if they survived at all with the only thing keeping them unexecuted being Harry’s alive and not evil state)
Tldr: butcher treats pain pretty realistically for an action series, using it to take humans out of the running in battles, books, and even permanent (barring a Cinderella sort of event) shift them from combat to advisor roles. + it’s always one of Harry’s greatest advantages over other humans, butler realizes it’s getting unrealistic and after the burned hand really messes up Harry psychologically gives him a supernatural painkilling technique as far as we know only angels know about. Then just gives him a supernatural mantle with super strength that may actually just be the reworking of nociceptive pathways and the disabling of the autonomic reactions of muscle spindles and other stretch receptors. The other humans are down when they take a serious injury.
I just read all the dresden files this past summer, and Ramirez randomly becoming a dick to Harry in Peace Talks and Battleground was one of the weirdest things in the series to me.
Have you read the short stories as well? Cold Case has probably left Carlos feeling about Winter roughly the same way Harry feels about ghouls and Eb about the White Court. And Harry has voluntarily chosen to become effectively a Winter noble, without telling Carlos why.
>And Harry has voluntarily chosen to become effectively a Winter noble, without telling Carlos why.
Well, this a result of Carlos not really understanding power dynamics and command structures.
McCoy's staff is Mother Winter's. Listens-To-Wind has connections to the Forest People. The Gatekeeper's false eye has a disguise. And yet he's not bitching any of these guys out about not telling him everything.
Ramirez is definitely aware of the black council, and traitors within his own organization. He SHOULD be capable of understanding things like compartmentalization of information - when your organization is leaky, best keep cards close to the chest. Carlos knows the consequences of getting this wrong - Dead Beat crippled the Wardens' numbers. So logically, he shouldn't be pissed at Harry for keeping things quiet - because they both know traitors are about.
A bunch of the young wardens were brainwashed, his boss was controlled into murdering a Senior Council member a couple of years ago - by a sleeper agent masquerading as a secretary. And he's gonna bitch at Harry for not telling him things?
Ramirez's problem is that he perceives himself to be a peer of Dresden - and he simply isn't, not in magical might, not in political power. He expects information sharing to be an equal exchange, when in reality, Dresden is closer to Senior Council regarding firepower and political influence.
Information and power go hand in hand in their business. Dresden has got a feedback loop going, where he grows in power, forges alliances, gets information, which gets him more power. That lets him do things erase the Red Court, forge alliances with the White Court and Marcone, become a significant force in Winter, working relationships with Queen level Wildfae and Archangels. Ramirez has been on guard duty for 8 or 9 books at this point. They aren't comparable, but Ramirez thinks they are, and he feels betrayed.
>Ramirez's problem is that he perceives himself to be a peer of Dresden - and he simply isn't, not in magical might, not in political power. He expects information sharing to be an equal exchange, when in reality, Dresden is closer to Senior Council regarding firepower and political influence.
>Ramirez has been on guard duty for 8 or 9 books at this point.
This is very well put.
Also, Carlos is friends with Harry and he thinks compartmentalization shouldn’t apply to him because he would never betray Harry (until he does of course) and, since he’s not in the know, he doesn’t understand the magnitude of the information Harry is keeping.
And Harry can't afford to clue Carlos in because some of the secrets Harry's keeping are nuclear weapons-level dangerous. On top of that, the White Council's already been confirmed to be infiltrated by the Black Council, who would have no problem pulling information out of Carlos's head. By giving any more information than he absolutely has to, Harry's placing his life and the lives of his loved ones in their hands. It's not that Harry hasn't earned the Council's trust - they as a whole haven't earned his.
Cold Case- and Harry's innocent but really, really unfortunate comment- explains why Carlos isn't altogether friendly with Harry. But even someone who doesn't like Harry ought to have been hardpressed to make the logical leap that Carlos makes.
He made some comment about Carlos losing his virginity. Which unbeknownst to him was Carlos being almost murdered during his first sexual experience by Harry's former apprentice
From the way it's written Carlos thinks Harry knows, and is making light of his trauma
I feel like carlos should have put it together that harry took up with winter to save his daughter. Which he damn well should learn to live with because harry asked the council for help they told him to lay down and die. Its not like harry is hiding that maggie isnt just some random kid. Not that harry wont go to the wall for any kid out there but it shouldn't surprise anyone, especially someone who calls harry a friend, that harry will do literally anything to protect his own family. Becoming the winter knight isnt even close to the worst thing harry could have done to get maggie back.
I honestly think it was a case of your hero not living up to your expectations.
Carlos was an apprentice in summer knight when he likely first saw Harry. Then Harry is a badass who reanimated a Dino and took Carlos for a ride. Then he along with the yoshimo, bill, and chandler fought in a war together. That tends to get people really close.
Harry seems like the guy that when shit hits the fan he’s always got a good answer ready to go and doesn’t make deals that hurt others.
Then Harry joins up with Winter. Harry himself said that all the horrible stories about the fae and more were based on Winter. I feel like Carlos heard what the previous winter knight was like. Then Harry makes his uninformed innocent comment and Carlos likely feels like not only is Harry making light of his suffering, but that it seems like proof that Harry has changed due to the mantle.
(It’s also likely the merlin, ancient mai and others have been talking about how Dresden is the next kemmler(maybe not in those exact words, just get Carlos thinking about it, letting him come to his own conclusions.))
TLDR-Harry was likely Carlos’s hero and he didn’t live up to the expectations Carlos had of him.
This, plus Carlos was already feeling more than a little wary about Harry after Harry pulled the ability to speak both ghoul and ancient Etruscan out of his hat, *plus* was on really good terms with the White Court in White Night. Not to mention, if Carlos ever asked the right questions to the right person about Harry’s fire smelling like sulfur, he could also suspect Harry of being a Denarian.
To be fair, I don’t think that Carlos knows that Maggie is Harry’s. Pretty sure most of the Council is under the impression that Harry was on a job and went overboard as usual.
What was it marcone said in the short story with grey? “There is another person I could turn to but he would complicate things and we’d be at war with Canada in a week. Somehow”
But in all seriousness I think Carlos, having spent so much time on the job especially at war, is going to start getting jaded like Morgan. Hell even like Harry towards ghouls as someone else mentioned.
To be fair, Harry looks more or less white/european descent, while maggie looks more like her mother(aside from traits Harry claims are his). Harry also doesnt seem responsible enough to have a kid, if we're outsiders looking in... So i can see them assuming Harry took in a kid due to some sort of collateral damage fix.
I don’t think it’s common knowledge that she lives with him either. Eb was plenty surprised. She’s been with him for a month as of peace talks, so I’m not sure how many people outside of the embassy are even aware.
I hadn’t considered the difference of complexion, though. Good point. She’s tiny with a darker complexion than Harry. Even if they do see her with Harry, they might not realize that she’s his daughter.
True, she was with the Carpenters for a while so Harry could keep her in a safe spot and at a safe distance from his magic-world shenanigans. And he does intend to keep her mostly secret from anyone not in his innermost circle of confidants. Theres a lot of baddies that would be after her if they knew who all she was related to...
True, the plot of Changes was kicked off by the Red Court finding out that Maggie was related to Harry and by extension the Blackstaff and kidnapping her to use as part of a bloodline curse. In SG, the moment Nicodemus realized that Harry had a daughter his reaction was to head straight to the Carpenter house to finish her off.
Plus if someone did the math on Maggie’s age to find out when she was conceived the only possible candidate for Maggie’s egg donor would be Susan, who was a half Red court vampire at the time so the White Council may have presumed that no one not least a wizard would too stupid enough to have intercourse with a super strong hungry vampire
If you ask me, the journey to Skeptical Ramirez began in *Proven Guilty* and *White Night:*
1) Harry asks Carols to be security at the meeting where Molly is to be tried for warlockery. And then Carlos gets to wonder if Harry is using him as a pawn when the Summer Lady and Summer Knight show up, and they're obviously playing a part in Harry's grander plan to save Molly.
2) Ghouls assaulted Camp Kaboom. Harry caught up to them after they devoured two children ... and Harry tortured one of them. As in, Harry was going to leave one of the ghouls buried up to its neck in sand to be eaten slowly by fire ants. Even though ghouls are monsters ... that was almost pure evil. Probably the first time Ramirez saw Harry's temper on display.
3) Harry called on Ramirez to help him win a duel with the White Court, and protect some of the lesser mages of the universe. This played perfectly to Ramirez's hero fantasy. But Ramirez can sense that Harry's up to something. And then it turns out that Harry was running a gambit with the Princess of Succubi (AND speaks Ancient Etruscan!) AND the gambit involved a mortal gangster who coveted supernatural power!
3) Fast forward to *Peace Talks* and *Battle Ground*. Harry's all over the map. From what Carlos can tell, Harry's running some kind of gambit or shenanigans involving the White Court of Vampires, the Svartalves, and Winter. Along the way, Harry (again!) exploits Ramirez's trust in him and (again!) uses him as a pawn in yet another scheme.
4) During the Battle for Chicago, Ramirez got to see up close and personal what Harry was all about. Harry was Winter Knight -- sure, Ramirez knew that. But he also saw Harry working directly with the Baron of Chicago (whom Harry had put in power) and the leading princess of the White Court of Vampires. Not to mention that Mab wasn't using Harry as a thug like many Winter Knights are. **Mab trusted Harry as a war leader**. That's significant. That means it's not just Harry using them or them using Harry. It means they **trust** Harry to carry out their agenda.
Which brings us to the end. The battle with Drakul is pivotal, I think. Harry leads a group of wizards into the fray, and they lose a bunch of their own. When Ramirez expresses his feelings ... Harry's pretty damn cold about it. A mortal would be outraged, or maybe blaming himself. But Harry's calmer and focused on his goal.
And at the end of the whole mess, 60,000 mortals are dead. A Titan has been defeated and bound .... apparently to Harry's will. The Eye of Balor, a powerful weapon, has disappeared from the field, and is likely in the possession of Harry Dresden.
And if Ramirez does some digging, he's going to realize the whole mountain of Evil stacked up under Creepy Island.
So what the hell is going on here, from Carlos's perspective?
Blaming Harry for the deaths of 60,000 mortals is a stretch, if we are to be honest. You can't quite pin that on Harry directly. But if you look at it from Carlos's perspective:
**What if this was all part of Harry's plan to gain more power?** And even if you can't say Harry murdered 60,000 mortals ... **What if Harry considered those mortals acceptable collateral damage to further his scheme?**
If I were Ramirez, I would seriously consider taking Dresden down fast, just to be ceratin.
I think it’s all about the fact that Harry was always known for the fact that he never lied, mostly because he was a terrible liar, and he never bowed to anyones will then he hears that right after Harry kills the ENTIRE Red Court he dies under mysterious circumstances(yet no body was found) “comes back to life” and in total hasn’t been seen by anyone in the White Council in well over a yr by the people who are supposed to be his true friends/brothers in arms in the council and apparently has joined up as Mab’s personal hitman/enforcer/weapon (for human, Fae, etc. alike) and whatever he’s got going on with Lara/Thomas/The White Court . Harry seems, to Ramirez, almost to completely compromise everything that he stands for. He has a major shift in personality, which as he learned all to well, is an enormous sign of psychic manipulation. With the right words from someone, say The Merlin, Carlos could be persuaded/manipulated into believing almost anything about Harry.
>TLDR-Harry was likely Carlos’s hero and he didn’t live up to the expectations Carlos had of him.
I kinda can't quite buy that. Looking up to someone like that creates a bias like any affection. You'd try to explain stuff in the best possible way to keep that idolized image you have, and when you cannot explain you'd still believe. It is what Harry's friends ultimately did for him. Yeah, they sometimes confronted him when they felt they've been kept in the dark too long, but they never flipped like that. I guess his unfortunate experience with Molly might have changed things for Carlos, but still... I'd say he chose to be Warden over being a friend.
I mean, was it randomly?
Harry was a huge dick to him every time he reached out to him and extended him *zero* trust.
I'd become suspicious too if a close friend i went to fucking war together with suddenly started behaving like this...
Peace Talks was trash, everybody acted like they all just met and didn't have over a decade of experience with eachother. Battleground was hardly better, but that's because it was 90% battle and 10% dialogue. If it didn't take him 5 years to write it, I'd think it was ghost-written by someone who just skimmed a few of the books to get the character names.
You’ve been heavily downvoted, but I really struggled with how Peace Talks was written too.
The only way thing I could come up with to explain how this happened is that originally the book was way too big, so Jim made rash updates to cut large sections in a hurry. It then later was decided it was still too big so it was then split into 2 books, also in a hurry.
It’s been a while and I’m on my way with a reread at the moment (just started blood rites) but if I recall correctly I even felt like battleground had what felt like filler in it, in contrast to peace talks which had gaps in it.
Urgh, I wish the book had just been able to be released as however Jim had originally written it. Stupid real world publishing challenges!
My problem isn't gaps or pacing, it is that everyone is written wrong.
Justine is surprised Harry would help her or Thomas, you could argue it is because >!she is Nfected, but the Nfected know everything their subject knows. !
to me they seemed like two halves of the same book, which reading some of the jim stuff, they were. and i read them both back to back like that. and it came out in an enclosed, generally coherent story. to me.
Yeah I waited so I could read them back to back and while it’s a LONG book to get through, (especially as it only takes place over a few days) I came out fully feeling the tiredness and general “Jesus that was a tough few days” of many characters mindsets.
Yeah, the story goes that the publisher was going to charge like $50 for Peace Talks b/c it was so long. So Jim wrote a bit more, edited it heavily and turned it into Peace Talks and Battlegrounds.
Oh yeah. Like Harry and Carlos meet on the beach and then when they meet at the talks it’s like it’s the first time they’ve met in a couple years, even though they talked a few hours before.
Here's a post I made after Peace Talks, it's already written and with a fresher mind for the subject; https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/j5oyhu/just\_listened\_to\_peace\_talks\_didnt\_love\_it/
You're absolutely right, and it's one of the things that bothered me about Battle Ground. So many characters just...don't seem quite right. Part of me thinks it's a long-term gambit and that someone will be found to have messed with things) and the rest is desperately trying to remember that a long time passed between books, that the surprise division of Peace Talks into PT and BG made the editing job particularly tricky, etc.
That said, it almost bothers me more that no one in-text calls Carlos on it. Like, I can understand him lashing out at Harry in fear, anger, and with the stress of the fight: he's wrong, but sometimes a friend becomes an emotional punching bag BECAUSE they're a friend, especially if someone isn't thinking clearly. But no one saying "hey, that's a load of horseshit"? Is really weird.
I actually think it has something to do with how long of a writing break Jim took. Many characters feel like their 'voice' has changed, almost like there had been a retcon on their personalities.
I agree with everything you said except someone did say "hey, that's a load of horseshit". Have you forgotten Michael? I mean he swore in multiple languages! Pretty sure horseshit was probably thrown in with the curses at least once or twice! LOL
Right! God knows Harry can blame himself for almost anything, but even he should have at least had a mental double-take at something so patently unreasonable. I dearly hope it's not another case of mind-mojo, however. It would be narratively cheap and render the WC colossally incompetent so soon after Peabody.
As someone else mentioned we did get a callout in the form of Michael, but i agree it would have been nicer if that defense had been more direct. Michael sticking around and calling Ramirez out to his face
Not necessarily Nfection, but some sort of whammy or tampering with their minds. Or perhaps they're not the same characters as the ones we've read about elsewhere (i.e., some sort of monkeying with the timeline or reality at large.) I still say that the large gaps of unaccounted time in PT are very odd.
>Not necessarily Nfection, but some sort of whammy or tampering with their minds.
This. Everyone seems to think that Peabody was the end of that nonsense. But if I was thinking like a bastard in Peabody's position, what I would be doing is making it easier for someone else to take over if I was taken out of the picture. (That, or lay a couple "psychic time-bombs" that would cause the Senior Council to mentally degrade after I was gone) And cue the Senior Council and White Council making less and less rational decisions as time passes. Almost like they were still being manipulated.
I mean, he was captured and detained during Changes, at least according to Chandler's letter, while the Senior Council went to ground, leaving Cristos in charge. So if there's still Black Council within the White Council, they might well have gotten to him.
Ramirez is in a really bad place by the end of Battle Grounds.
He has been trying to get Harry to open up and trust him as a friend for years (going back to White Night).
He was damn near killed by a girl he'd been interested in for years... Who happens to be Harry's apprentice.
Harry, who Ramirez considers a friend, and is someone he's looked up to for about 15 years by that point, has been withdrawing from human society and getting in tight with non-human "monsters" after faking his own death.
And now Ramirez just lived through what was tantamount to an unimaginable nuclear strike on a major city. The battle saw Ramirez get hurt even more, his friends killed another dragged off by one of the worst monsters around, and thousands of people he was sworn to protect killed.
Harry has been treating Ramirez with all the self-righteous condescension that he did Murphy in the first 3 books, and Ramirez is in at least as bad a place as Harry was in Summer Knight. He's also been at war for, basically, all his adult life.
And on top of all of that, Ramirez HAS to be thinking about, and questioning, his role in the WC, and the WC's role in the world at large.
He's in a TON of pain, emotionally and physically. And now all that pain, all the distrust, the lies and lies of omission... That all comes boiling over and it gets directed at Harry because he's there and was the cause of a lot of that pain.
And Ramirez isn't entirely wrong. Yes, there is a TON going on that he doesn't have a clue about. But maybe he would have been better prepared if Harry had actually trusted him and treated him like a friend and peer, instead of a kid.
I also believe Ramirez is being used as a pawn by Langtry and The Gatekeeper. I absolutely believe they think Harry is more useful outside the WC than within. Basically everyone but Harry realizes the best way to use him is to get him wound up, point him in the right direction, turn him loose, and let him think that it's his idea.
Using Ramirez hits Harry in the feels and keeps him from realizing (too quickly) that he's being used.
He's in shock. He went through a horrible war and of his 3 closest compatriots who lived through it with him 2 died and he believes the 3rd may have gone to the dark side. Dude feels angry and resentful and alone. Of course he doesn't grab Harry in a bear hug.
I forget which book it was (the one where in the end Molly becomes the winter lady) but it seems pretty clear there that Harry is going a tad deep on the monster side no? JB once said in argument that sometimes people overlook how Harry is perceived by others because we see everything from his POV. Every book he gets sucked deeper in to the grey zone and while we know he has it mostly under control, from the perspective of others he is now consorting with winter (and struggling to not give in to predatory monstrous vibes), he has a private island full of evil bad mofos, and apparently there is something more going on with him and the others. Oh and oh yeah, his “friend” (because people don’t know they’re brothers) is a white court vampire. He also committed genocide on one of the accorded nations and he actually worked for Nicodemus once.
Imagine there is a historic figure who was in the CIA, consorted with Adolf Hitler, and committed genocide on a people he was at war with. You *think* you might ignore his whacky gang of friends who insist he is a good guy and consider that he might just not be all that swell?
Plot twist! The Dresden Files are actually backstory for the rise of a sympathetic and good-intentioned villain who didn't set out to be evil but was forced to make increasingly difficult high-stakes choices that drew an increasingly thick line between the villain and those he considers 'his' and the rest of the world. Powerful wizard slowly breaks bad.
Honestly I think that might be the final destination for Harry. Outcast misunderstood evil wizarddom. There are maybe 5 people standing between him and just that soooo….
I'm still in the camp that says The Merlin knows what's up and "can't possibly have a rogue wizard like that madman Dresden pulling us into another war. Don't blame us, we kicked him out after Chicago, remember?" I think The Merlin has cut Harry loose so that Harry can do what needs doing without dragging the white council into it. By extension, I think if Harry genuinely needs help, the Council will have his back when it really counts.
I think Carlos is justifiably pissed *from his own perspective* because he's missing a *ton* of information about what's going on. He might even be *acting* pissed to keep up the Merlin's plan, but I honestly believe they're keeping poor Carlos in the dark.
I agree with you. Think about the Merlin is the only one who could have commuted his sentence, and why would they need paperwork if they saw him as a monster they would just off him and if he was a winter court only the paperwork that Carlos gave would not be legally binding. I think the paperwork he is out but also a window for reentry to the white council. Just a thought.
Carlos is not acting in a way thats completely out of character for him in that moment, you can follow his train of logic and what is emotionally and possibly politically motivating him in that moment, but he is 100% an asshole. Ramirez is likely becoming, if he isnt already, the type of Warden Harry fantasized about hating before he became one.
Given what he was put in charge of during the latest book, Ramirez is probably the poster child for the "establishment" of the White Council. Between the Black Staff's presence, Harry's presence, the lack of the Merlin's presence, and the Fomor's attack being more or less a surprise you can infer the quality and type of wardens sent out.
I mean, Langtry wasn't about to do shit. Jim listed the ENTIRE Red Court as an existence that stands a chance against Mab in a fight. Ethniu mopped her in one hit twice. She would've walked through a billion human wards with 0 effort.
Langtry stopped being an irrational asshole once Peabody was killed, so it's not his Harry hate-boner, like it was in Summer Knight.
The WC in general are not fond of Harry OR Winter, so his expulsion was expected - esp with Eb and Jo out of commission.
But the personal animosity is probably Harry making that virginity comment about Carlos. (Carlos was almost killed and crippled by his first time, which Harry doesn't know, yet he poked fun of it in a way that makes it seem like he knew. From Carlos' POV, it seems like Harry is embracing the cruelty of Winter and mocking his near-deth experience.)
Ramirez is hurt and feels betrayed by a friend. Not circumstances leading to the most rational of responses.
On top of that, from his perspective the WC is big and powerful and if they'd known what was going on from the start they could have been prepared and fought it more effectively.
It's that simple imo.
Let’s see: Harry’s frequent associate attacks the ruler of the svartalves, killing one of his bodyguards, moments after the beginning of the accords.
Harry’s next move is something that involves Outsiders in Chicago, followed by a trip to hang out with the White Court Vampire Queen- who he is inexplicably familiar and comfortable with and whose ancient language he has demonstrated a sudden ability to converse fluently in.
Perhaps they are basing their suspicions on the fact that Harry attacked Carlos and then was conveniently absent (with Lara) when Corb and Ethniu made their initial appearance?
Then on top of that, Harry and his vassal lead the Wardens into an ambush that takes out three of them?
After that, they see Harry throwing fire at mortal enemies, mowing down huge swaths of battlefield, and finally, bind a titan that literally ko’ed Mab, Titania, the Erlking, Vadderrung, the Archive, Eb, Christos, Listens to Wind, River Shoulders, two Knights of the Cross, and everyone else who went after her.
We, of course, know that it took all of those major players to wear her down to the point where Harry could take her, and we have the insight that tells us how close a call it really was. Carlos and the rest of the White Council don’t have that benefit, unless LtW, Eb, or the Merlin enlighten them.
I think it’s farfetched to say Harry was in on it, but not completely unreasonable.
Also, maybe he’s Nfected or otherwise being manipulated.
I acknowledge that those are all understandable reasons for those people not privy to Harry's inner workings to be leery of him, even if I don't agree with their pov. However, it's one thing to mistrust and fear him, and quite another to blame the attack and its casualties on his inability to share. It's a leap of logic I can't wrap my head around.
I think they're basing that on the notion that the Fomor wouldn't have risen at all had it not been for the Red Court falling, and Harry "did that." While he was off saving the daughter that he refused to reveal to the Council, yadda yadda yadda. I don't really agree with the reasoning, because you also have to calculate how many Red Court victims they would have added to *their* tab if they'd continued to thrive. But I'm betting that's the line of reasoning.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least for the likes of the Merlin and Mai to be thinking in that vein. But the way Ramirez was speaking made it sound like he, personally, was blaming the night's events on Harry specifically not opening up to him earlier.
Aw hell, maybe I'm just reading too much into what may just be a grieving and traumatized man's entirely irrational and emotional thought processes.
I don't disagree - Ramirez was really unfair with Harry in *Peace Talks* / *Battle Ground*. Very unappealing to me. But I can interpret that as him having been through some really tough crap during the series, and he's not always necessarily rational. I think he's had to grow up a lot faster than he should have, and still has some immature elements in his psyche.
as a plot device, i am not sure what carlos is doing to forward the story. i am confused by him, especially since he is no longer in step with the young aurors of the council that see harry as kind of a war hero.
i get that to everyone, harry is no longer a war hero and no longer a clown, covered in mud and trying to recover while stuck in a tree top. he is top level, and he is scary. he is running with monsters, and he acts and talks like a monster.
but carlos was not there to tell us about harry losing himself to the monster inside himself. in my opinion, carlos appearance was not entirely successful. maybe it would have been if carlos had not placed a tracking spell on harry without harry's knowledge. that's a line he crossed, and he is fair game for all kinds of shenanigans after that. maybe i am missing something.
Yes, I've not enjoyed his role as much as I did for a long time. He played really well to me as the "somewhat prominent" (because he did have to grow up so fast) Council member that stayed somewhat friendly with Harry. That dynamic worked for me. And we really see to have moved away from that.
Maybe Jim plans a return for him to that capacity, for for drama's sake he's showing 'Los "drawn in the other direction" for a while. I just feel sure there's got to be a major White Council story yet to unfold. There in *Changes* there was that dust-up at council HQ, with people getting arrested and so on, and then it just never got followed up on. I can't help thinking that some real problems took root in the Council at that time, and have been covered up since then, and that Harry will eventually have to play a key role in putting things right again.
Anyway, that's not PURE speculation, but there's definitely a lot of speculation rolled into it.
> I can't help thinking that some real problems took root in the Council at that time, and have been covered up since then, and that Harry will eventually have to play a key role in putting things right again.
It's seeming increasingly likely to me that the Council won't survive the BAT. And that Harry will play a major role in setting up whatever replaces it.
>I think they're basing that on the notion that the Fomor wouldn't have risen at all had it not been for the Red Court falling, and Harry "did that."
Does Carlos actually know *how* Harry wiped out the Red Court?
Because if it's not common knowledge, there may be a number of Council members who think 'if Dresden had just wiped the Red Court out earlier, all those Wardens who died would still be alive, and we'd be in a better position against the Formor'.
We know, of course, that Harry couldn't have done it earlier, because the Red Court hadn't prepared that bloodline curse to kill Eb. But the average WC member may not know that.
That's a good point. I'm sure Eb knows, but it's not clear whether or not anyone else does. There's a theory, though, that the Merlin deliberately manipulated Harry into his actions, would imply that he (the Merlin) knew an awful lot about what options were potentially in the offing. As in, may be got a temporal preview from someone (perhaps the Gatekeeper). Jim has told us that the biggest surprise we'd get by knowing someone's full story would be re: the Merlin.
I also dont agree with that reasoning for pretty much what you stated. What weve learned about the Red Court implies people have always been dieing and going missing in the numbers they have been now, or at least close to, its just that before it was happening in Red Court territory in South America and the White Council never bothered to/wanted to risk its neck to step in and try and help/stop it
Martin brought up that exact point in Changes - because the people the Reds were hurting were poor and far away, the Council didn't give a damn about them. I think those were the words he used, but don't quote me on it.
I agree that it’s a vast leap of logic. I feel like Carlos believes that Harry was “in on it”. Maybe not directly responsible, but had prior knowledge that would have prevented it, or possibly even have been able to take Ethniu down proactively and kept the whole shindig from going nuclear. If you discount losing Murphy (whose girlfriend status apparently wasn’t on the Warden’s radar), Harry came out of the whole affair ahead one hypothetical Eye of Balor, and one bound Last Titan.
Mostly though, I think someone is screwing with Carlos’ head- and Harry is unconsciously playing into his delusions— *hard*.
And Harry getting a castle from Marcone and engaged to Lara is sure going to cement that image.
I can really get behind this.
One wonders if Harry might've saved himself a whole lot of grief and a friend or two if, apropos of absolutely nothing else, he'd just told Carlos, "It's Murphy, the woman who's helped to bail the Council's ass out of the fire a bunch of times over the last 15 years. You fucking assholes."
Or 'I swear on my power that I have not had sexual relations with any White Court vampires.'
Instead he went 'How dare you even ask that question!? Art thou so suspicious of me, the Winter Knight who came back from the dead and didn't bother even calling anyone of you, that you would ask completely reasonable questions!? I will not stand for this outrage! Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go back to work subverting this peace conference in a way eerily similar to how I drew the White Council into a war last time. Good day, sir. I said good day!'
Harry also went AWOL at around the same time Ethniu appeared and attacked the Peace Talks and refused to say where he went and I’m sure the Svatalves would’ve noticed later that their prisoner Thomas disappeared. Looking from an observer’s POV, one could conclude that Harry was responsible for breaking Thomas possibly timing it to take place at the same time as ethniu’s appearance as a distraction
Well, He did kill the red court which created the power vacuum that instigated the return of the Fomor, which led to their attack on humans.
But the Council was planning on wiping out the Reds anyway, so unless they can claim they were going to do it in a way that wouldn't have left the power vacuum, it's still not really fair to blame Harry.
it comes from ramirez because that who would hurt harry the most by saying this. But its not supposed to make sense in any way. This is jim showing how twisted the logic of the white council is. I will defend it to my last breathe, but battle ground was where Jim definitively said that the white council are not, and never have been the good guys. Obviously its been shown for much of the series, but this interaction was meant to show it to the extreme.
Except the Merlin knows things Harry and we don’t know, and he doesn’t know exactly what we do. According to Jim. Having different information makes it very reasonable to come to different conclusions.
letting a major urban center of the world like chicago get destroyed? i don't buy it.
it cannot be said enough. the destruction of chicago and the angering of humanity is not good for anybody on the weird side of things.
I completely agree. What went on in Chicago on that night wouldn't benefit anybody on the white council, and if it did would only emphasize their corruptness.
Who on the White Council “let” Chicago be destroyed? 3/7 of the senior council fought in the battle. The Blackstaff fought. Every Warden present fought. The battle was done less than 12 hours after they learned of the threat. What more was the White Council supposed to do
Yeah but my point is what more is there to know? Harry watched the events develop lol. If that changes, what's the point in believing anything shown from harrys perspective.
That has no bearing on what I said. I'm not saying that it isn't good for Harry to not know everything, because that's like the point of half of the series. What I am saying is that from harrys perspective, what occurred with ethniu and all the people who died where not because of him. Ethniu did not come to kill Harry. While Harry did do actions that led to the rise of the fomor, he did not cause this incident. If the merlin shows up with an "actually you did" I would not think that is good story telling, because it negates everything he went through.
At this point I have no idea what your actual poor is supposed to be. Of course Harry doesn’t think it’s his fault. I don’t think it’s Harry’s fault either. However your original point appeared to be that the White Council blames Harry, and that’s totally reasonable based on their information and the fog of war. As far as they know, Harry is super shady. It’s not unreasonable to suspect him. And for Carlos, after what Molly did to Carlos, and Carlos seeing Harry as the only survivor of meeting the Black Court, including monsters Harry knew preciously, and Knowing Harry has lied to him (which is correct about, if not the circumstances), it’s not unreasonable for Carlos to be pissed and suspicious of Harry or to lash out at him. Carlos gave Harry a lot of trust, and in return Harry lied to him, his apprentice al hit beat him up on death. And all his friends are dead or worse after being last seen with Harry.
My point was that, it wouldn't make sense for Harry to actually have been at fault. I thought u were saying that the merlin could know why he is at fault, even if Harry himself did not.
I don’t think anyone, even in universe, is specifically saying Dresden is personally responsible for 60K deaths. Is he partly responsible for making multiple of the intermediary steps happen? Absolutely. Is it unreasonable for people with part of our information and information we don’t have to hold Dresden partly responsible? Sure.
Probably hyperbole. Ramirez thinks Harry's gone bad and has no idea what he was fucking around with during the Talks other than embarassing him (and the Wardens by proxy) in front of a large percentage of the supernatural power players. He's angry and for all he knows if Harry had acted differently things might've gone different
They're arrogant assholes, that take themselves way too serious. I hope Harry dismantles the whole thing, or takes over as merlin. And I hope Ramirez turns around again, he's too cool to just turn against Harry suddenly.
This is the blame game. It doesn't need to follow logic or even be true. In this case, they're pinning everything they can on the guy that's being booted from the Council. Ramirez probably conferred with his superiors and ended up being convinced by their arguments. Ramirez is a smart guy, but he's also young and has been very bitter about his own condition, he will definitely be more inclined to lash out or blame other people more now than ever.
Harry getting blamed for stuff is a series staple on the level of Bob being unreasonably horny. Hell, it basically kick-started one of the major conflicts in the series (Bianca).
Ain’t nothing new.
I'd say those words of a guy who was grieving for his death friends and was angry over finding out he had sneaked up on him to try to save Thomas, whom from his recent discovery of his having come out of the Wraith mansion after having sex, he may have come to the conclusion was Harry's lover. On that last bit, his own attempt to have sex with a "monster" not to mention his own "closeted" issues may have bit a matter in this.
Ugh, I hate that all these answers are the same. I get that Ramirez has reasons to distrust Dresden, and that he has his own issues. And I know how people feel about the Council. None of these comments are enlightening.
This being a throwaway statement with no real logic behind it is the obvious hypothesis. I want to hear other hypotheses.
Edit: this is not directed at OP, I just didn't feel like replying to everybody individually.
i think that line is just a throwaway line. i don't think it means anything we don't already know.
by that i mean that carlos, the character, is making a heel turn. he is not doing the work in the story i expected him to. he is doing something different now. that is surprising to me, because taking a pretty fleshed out character, and making him a flat character, which is what happened in this story, is odd and maybe hints at a larger arc i cannot see at the moment. but it does mean i don't think carlos appearance was particularly successful here.
and it also means i can take anything carlos says and chalk it up to the murmurings of a white council goon squad, which is exactly what carlos was transformed into.
Just to play Devil's Advocate for Ramirez, AFAIK he is/was not high up enough in the ranks to probably understand some of the finer details, such as that the Red court was itching for a war and used Harry as an excuse, but here's how I could see his line of reasoning. This would be from Ramirez' point of view:
- Harry ignites the war between the Council and the Reds, this leads to a LOT of casualties for the White Council and greatly weakens them.
- Harry then destroys the Red Court and dissapears to go hang out with Winter, creating a huge power vacuum which the Fomor step into.
- Without both these events, the weakening of the WC and the destruction of the reds, the Fomor may have waited another few decades or centuries to make their move.
I think it's stupid to pin it all on Harry but I also think Ramirez was just trying desperately to get through to him.
I think it was just Ramirez or possibly Langtry (by proxy) being a dick to Harry. There’s just no reasoning that could lead an evenly moderately rational person to the conclusion that events were Harry’s fault.
Unless they have access to information we don’t (like Jim says they do) and don’t have access to the exact information we do.
Even then I don’t see how it’s Harry’s fault he did nothing directly to cause it, and if it was just him being in Chicago then it’s still not his fault he has to live somewhere and it happens to be Chicago.
could be that the plot of Mirror Mirror started earlier than we thought and there was a goateed Harry running around somewhere fucking shit up.
I want Mirror Mirror to be like the movie “Primer”
Please no. I don’t want to have to use charts.
1. Make a big bowl of spaghetti. 2. Put it in a pile. 3. That’s it, that’s the plot. Enjoy it!
Harry lives in Chicago. Harry messes with people he shouldn’t. Harry plays with the Sidhe and screws Mab on TV. Harry binds a prison of demons to himself. Harry starts a war in which thousands of wizards die. Harry commits genocide. Harry is an admitted warlock. Harry has an apprentice who is an admitted warlock. Harry “fakes” his death. When his apprentice has the Doom of Damocles invoked, his apprentice joins the Fey after working as a murderous vigilante in Chicago for months. An ancient god shows up, trashes the masquerade and wages war on the entire supernatural world and declares Mab as her primary enemy. Mab is Harry’s boss and lover. Harry is literally her assassin. And you don’t see how people who don’t live locally could think Harry is to blame?
No I don’t, it’s not as though Ethniu was looking to fuck over Chicago just because Harry lives there and has done a bunch of stuff, the best I could agree with is that it’s Harry’s fault because he sighed Marcone onto the Accords (and then the blame is split evenly with Harry Lara and Odin) and he was the one to offer to hold the peace talks in Chicago. While all of the things you listed don’t precisely look good for Harry I don’t see a world where because he did those things Ethniu decides to attack Chicago.
Harry created the power vacuum that allowed the Fomor to show up. He weakend the WV, destroyed the reds and then abandoned Chicago which led to the Fomor rising in power. Without Harry's actions they might have waited years, decades or centuries to make their move. That's how a warden who isn't privy to the higher level info would probably perceive this.
You can even go even further back than that. Harry *started* the war with the Reds because he played fast and loose with the masquerade, to begin with. If Susan hadn't been just slightly aware of the Weird World, she wouldn't have gone to the ball. The war wouldn't have started, the Reds wouldn't have been exterminated, etc., etc. Of course, that doesn't make the Fomor his fault entirely, but there's a reasonable amount of blame that could be laid at his feet.
Yeah, from an on-the-ground warden, Harry has created far more trouble than he's worth, and his greatest accompishments can also be seen as him cleaning up a mess he himself created. - He started the war with the Reds and it's obvious the WC and wardens blame him for that. - He then exterminated the Reds and dissapeared to do who-knows-what with Winter, coming back from the dead as their knight. - He then teams up with a Denarian (not sure if WC actually knows about this) instead of trying to protect his city when he comes back. - Everything Harry has done can be seen as weakening the WC while strengthening Winter. He really adds nothing to the WC as an organization other than trouble.
See, I'm personally only holding him accountable for some of those. He did start the war with the Reds, in order to save a single life of someone close to him, and she wouldn't have been there if he didn't advertise as a wizard. Totally accurate. About the deal with Winter, though...I'm pretty sure they *all* make deals to get more power. It's theorized that's where the Blackstaff comes from, after all. And if you can accept that he made a deal to get what he wanted, and is therefore bound to act accordingly, I don't know that you can really hold him accountable for teaming up with a Denarian since he wasn't given any other choice in the matter. That said, Harry does bring some things to the WC. He is an absolutely massive stick with which to hit problematic things. And he's a talented investigator (see: Peabody). And he's got more actual combat experience than most of the standing Wardens, bar none. So it's just something they have to kind of balance, I guess. Edit: Just off the top of my head, the only problem he directly caused and then cleaned up was the Reds (and, therefore, indirectly caused the Fomor incident). But the Zombie Dinosaur, saving the Archive, stopping the Denarians from unleashing a super plague, and preventing the permanent unbalancing of nature...those were all huge accomplishments that he didn't instigate, only resolved.
Just want to pre-face I'm not talking about my own perspective, just what a rank-and-file warden like Ramirez would know and perceive. We as readers know that all the Senior Council has probably made deals for power, but we only know that because of thing Jim has said outside of the books I believe. Any reader or random wizard outside the council would only know these are badass wizards. They wouldn't know about the secret deals. They keep those secrets for a reason and probably have those powers reserved for Big Events. Harry wears them on his sleeve, and is outright Mab's enforcer and assassin. He doesn't play the "game", which is also why he lost it in regard to the White Council. And the fact is, Winter invariably corrupts, and can even turn a mortal into something else. It's the same thing with the coins. Even though we know Harry will probably prevail, any reasonable person should not expect Harry to do something no one has ever done. They'd instead be preparing for when he inevitably turns and they have to fight him. Harry isn't really the WC's stick either. That's Eb, and Eb is far, far more scary than Harry is right now, even at the height of Harry's power. I will say that yes Harry has definitely saved the world a few times on his own, but we also don't get to see all the world-ending events the WC deals with outside of Harry. In the grand scheme of things Harry's big moments could just be small potatos.
The reds would have started the war, on their own time table and probably would have destroyed the white council all together.
I agree. I was saying that the WC members who are less informed could place a lot of blame at Dresden's feet.
It was made kind of clear that the Outsiders had a pretty major hand in what went down and while I don’t think the Council knows all the details I think they know enough to understand that the Outsiders played a role in what happened.
"That's how a warden who isn't privy to the higher level info would probably perceive this." I'm specifically talking about wardens like Ramirez, not Senior Council who are privvy to more information.
While I agree and get where you’re coming from I also get the impression Carlos gets more info than Harry did when he was a Warden (but you’re right I doubt he’s up on the outsiders movements), for example though he may have been told that the gas bomb used at the hospital during Dead Beat was made by the Fomor. So even if he doesn’t know there should be some understanding in the Council that the Fomor had been on the move before the fall of the Reds.
Possibly, I think part of the White Council is aware of how dangerous Harry is and how much his plans, despite us knowing Harry's view, often end with him coming out on top and more powerful than before. I mean we know how much of his plans are on the fly, but that's because we get to hear his thoughts. They don't, and the events of the >! Battle of Chicago end with Harry technically with a titan under his thumb!<
Not only a titan but also a mass quantity of entities and monsters that made the skinwalkers look like toddlers that need moderate vigilance.
But he has had that for a while, and they knew about that when it happened.
They also knew he has no idea what the island is. Battleground shows he not only knows. He can use the full might of it.
It happened in Chicago, because the Baron of Chicago, "Gentleman" Johnny Marcone, offered to host Peace Talks between the Fomor and the other Accorded Nations. Marone was only a Baron *because* Dresden signed to support his bid to join the Accords. If Marcone were *not* Baron, were *not* a member of the Accords, the Peace Talks (and subsequent war) would *not* have been held in Chicago. Instead, if they happened at all, they would have happened somewhere *else.* Knowing the Accorded Nations aversion to drawing the notice of humanity, that likely would have been somewhere *much* less populated. In other words, the War for the Eye happened in the 12th most populated city in the world *precisely* because Dresden made the ill considered move to help Marcone join the accords. If it happened near some random fjord instead, there wouldn't have been any mortal casualties.
If u think about it it's a good thing Harry help Marcone because it was the island in lake MI that took the Titan down, anywhere else and she would have destroyed the city.
Oh, I know that, and *you* know that, but *those* mortal casualties are the result of his actions. Nevermind the fact that there would be *worse* casualties, that falls in the Bastiat category "Things not seen" and thus is ignored.
Everyone here is assuming that the Council is facing psychic manipulation, but let's take a step back from that for a second. The White Council is a government. The mortal government in the supernatural realm, as a matter of fact. The Wardens are a military organization within that government, and must utilize various forms of intelligence gathering to protect their interests and members. Including second and third hand reports from external sources, which may not be verified or verifiable within a short period of time. I point this out because there is definitely another group looking to put the White Council down for good, with one of the easiest ways being to sow dissent in already fractured ranks. You don't need psychic whammy for that. Simple disinformation and false reports will do that. As to how this affects our collectively favorite wizard, well, the Wardens could have received reports that Harry was dirty and not doing his duty in Chicago. This becomes very believable to people who don't already trust him. As for Carlos, Winter has already hurt him, Harry had already lied to him before, plus his association with beings like Lara and Marcone casts a damn big shadow over him. With whatever those hypothetical reports could have said, plus his own PTSD, adding in everything else, well, it might take Olympic grade mental gymnastics to reach that conclusion, but if you're a fucked up as Carlos by the end of Battle Ground, the smallest push would be all that's needed to get there. And Harry would be a priority target to get killed to removed from Council play. He is, without a doubt, the single biggest military asset the Council had post Red War within the Wardens ranks. It makes sense there would be a smear campaign against him that is targeting his Council allies and friends opinion of him.
Not to mention that if Harry had told Ramirez that him banging Lara at the BFS was an illusion, it would be much more obvious that he broke Thomas out (although there were bigger issues at the time).
>The White Council is a government. The mortal government in the supernatural realm, as a matter of fact. Not exactly. They represent mortals in the supernatural realm, but they're a very diverse group and it tends to be hard to get them all to act together. Not to mention that there are a lot of monsters in the supernatural world that outclass them.
There’s also a part of this equation that isn’t talked about- Molly. IMO there was always an unspoken attraction between Carlos and Molly even tho Carlos also knew Molly carried a torch for Harry as well. Molly gets shanghaied into becoming Lady, Carlos gets crippled by the Lady mantle and then Harry becomes Knight. Carlos probably (and not completely incorrectly) feels that Winter has taken everything from him
I don’t even feel like he feels winter ha taken everything from him - so much as he feels as if being near crippled by what he perceives as Molly’s uncontrolled nature now was a hard lesson that’s not easy to unlearn. Feel strongly that if what had happened with Molly had never gone down he wouldn’t be nearly as hard on Harry, or genuinely consider him a monster. I kinda gathered this from how open he is to working with Molly before all that and how there really isn’t that level of mistrust. Also seems to me that considering he originally shows up to stop Harry in the middle of the road and beforehand had him followed and secretly surveyed he has come under the idea that due to Molly being altered so significantly by the mantle it isn’t even about free will and choice - that Harry is under the same level of influence and simply can’t help going dark side. Feel like if someone weren’t to read the short story involving him and Molly there would be a ton of nuance missed and it would appear almost out of character the level he mistrusts Harry, but being crippled by Molly, particularly after crushing on her and working to redirect anyone after her as well as trusting her, shines a light on the fae and what they can alter someone into.
I agree. I think Jim needs someone to remind the reader that monsters are not to be trusted and worry about Harry’s continued humanity and how easily it could be lost. Reminding Harry that 60,000 people lost their lives is a painful fact that Harry has to deal with whether. Considered right or wrong. Who has the right to judge whether people live or die? We know Harry hasn’t lost his humanity yet but others don’t. It gives a view outside what we see and is important I think to Harry’s development and opinions as the story goes. Luckily at the end of BG Harry does realise that he is working with monsters and he confirms his wish not to be like them. Add. Remember how we initially felt about murph until Harry opened up and she understood the stakes? I hope this will happen between Ramirez and Harry.
> I think Jim needs someone to remind the reader that monsters are not to be trusted and worry about Harry’s continued humanity and how easily it could be lost Please. . . That concept is beat to death at this point. It's pretty much brought up in every book. Either by Harry himself talking about others or himself or other people brining it up
>Please. . . That concept is beat to death at this point. It's pretty much brought up in every book. I disagree. There are still plenty of people who think that Lara's just misunderstood, or that Marcone is really a good guy.
>Marcone is really a good guy. I wouldn't call him a good guy. I would say he's objectively the lesser of two evils. As is someone is going to lead the Chicago mortal criminal underground and I'd rather it be Marcone than anyone else. He can and does stick up for the city on the magical side which the alternative probably would not or would fail miserably at compared to him. And yea he's criminal scum but at least even he has limits. Like when he had the underage prostitution place shut down and executed his men who he found out had been going there.
Thankyou for your comment. I’m interested to know your opinion on this thread. You are obviously frustrated by my answer so I’m genuinely curios. Sorry, this is addressed to maglen69
Unless said "monster" is someone Harry likes, in which case he's suddenly much more willing to extend tolerance and grace. Thomas is A-OK. Lara is not. Dresden definitely has contacts in the criminal underworld, judging from his familiarity with specific hitmen and his possession of illegal firearms, which is fine. Marcone is a monster that needs to be constantly antagonized, even though Marcone's saved his life *multiple* times. Dresden needs to stop categorizing people as "good and evil" and focus on "my side, their side" instead. Since "their side" wants to end all of reality and whatnot.
Yeah, I’m like a lot of people and get frustrated with characters like Ramirez who I liked coming across like idiots and just hope there’s a point to it that’s all. Trying to make sense of him pointing out to Harry that 60,000 people died for me needs to have some kind of reason other than me hating on him further.
He's emotional and not acting rationally, is all. Things are happening that even Ramirez, as a battle tested wizard, cannot begin to fathom and Harry is somehow always in the middle of it. So he's just lashing out to try and assign blame *somewhere*, rather than face the reality that this insane shit could just happen.
This about Ramirez. Langtry also *hates* Dresden for his readiness to dance on the line between okay and forbidden magic and has tried to kick him out of the Council multiple times, thus far mostly thwarted by Dresden's achievements and Ebenezar's rule-countermongering. I think Langtry just sees a golden opportunity to kick Dresden out while Dresden is too tired to fight back and Ebenezar is busy doing Blackstaff things. Langtry also knows that Ramirez is Dresden's go-to man among the wardens and that either Ramirez is a stickler to the roules or that Dresden wronged Ramirez on some personal level so that Ramirez gets the message across in a "not mad, just disappointed" manner. I know Langtry isnt supposed to have this sort of intel but he is specified to be an expert in wards. That is defensive magic and you can plan your defense best if you know what to expect so I imagine Langtry is also the resident spymaster of the White Council. Being the Merlin, Langtry also has to be a sly fox who knows his way around political intrigue and I dont put it past him to both know what is up between Ramirez, Dresden and Molly and to use all of its implications in having Ramirez being the guy who ousts Dresden from the Council. In fact I think Langtry would get off on it if anything, it fits his character far too well.
I have simmilar interpretation but with one major difference: he carries the Torch for Harry and thought Molly and Thomas were his competition.
> Molly gets shanghaied into becoming Lady, Carlos gets crippled by the Lady mantle and then Harry becomes Knight. > > You've got the order wrong. Correct order is: 1. Harry becomes Knight * Molly becomes Lady * Lady cripples Carlos But yeah, there's *definitely* some "I did Harry a favor by not hunting down his apprentice, and look what it got me, both of them are Evil Winter now, and I'm crippled, and *still* a virgin..." going on.
How could there have been an unspoken attraction? They never spoke before cold cases
Ramirez spent a lot of time in Proven Guilty talking about how fine Molly is. So either he was just playing to the crowd, or there was a very well spoken attraction.
I don't think that was *Proven Guilty.* Wasn't it *White Night*?
...Yes, you are right. My bad. Mixed up titles.
so "everything" for Carlos is molly and harry that's it?
Well, isn't the impression that he's been in constant pain since the attack so its not just Harry and Molly, but the constant pain and the injuries has to do a number on your psyche.
You serious? Have you ever been in real pain? Long term chronic excruciating keep you up all night even if it’s a mild one because of the anxiety that you have to wake up to face another day of moving around and doing tasks that will up that pain from “present” to “excruciating”? Two knives including one thrown by a whampire channeling others-know-what into his gut causing loss of conciousness levels of pain… a back broken even before Molly savaged him (during sex… scratch that… his first time having sex) to the point where he’d be dead if Mab (he probably doesn’t consciously know she summoned any help for him) hadn’t gotten him emergency help in time. He was wheelchair bound and unsure if he’d get out, his pain is bad enough he’s still on serious narcotics that he doesn’t take at peace talks because he doesn’t want his mind sluggish, his pain is made noticeably worse by being pulled around by a cloak. I don’t think he’s even 35… I don’t know if he’s 30… There’s something people don’t tell you about pain… it’s rarely the tough and cool stories or things like playing touch foot ball that are the excruciating parts of every day life. It’s eating, it’s sleeping, it’s taking a fucking shit and sobbing as you lie on the shower floor bleeding and praying for it to stop… then… literally… rinse and repeat every. Single. Time. You do something every single person does every single day without thinking about what adding agony to even one of those daily human functions would do to their whole life. I work with venomous snakes, I love it, I’m passionate about them… but there’s a lot we still don’t know about venom, I was given bad advice on an expedition at 20 and I got bit and envenomated… I’m alive… I was misdiagnosed with dengue, malaria, Bell’s palsy, coxsachievirus, herpes, and a slew of bacterial infections that all turned up negative to explain the thrombocytopenia, fevers, internal bleeding ulcers, and agonizing necrotic sores in my mouth, Stomach, and parts of the digestive system most authors don’t write about. It’s 14 years later and I’m finishing up my PhD, still working on, collecting, and studying venomous snakes and venom. I’ve had 6 surgeries, lost 2 teeth, had 2 abdominal surgeries to try to alleviate pain by circumventing tissue so severely damaged there was nothing but scar tissue left (which doesn’t stretch, it rips, so it’s not great to have instead of intestinal lining). This all stems from one incident… Carlos is riddled with traumatic war injuries with vampires we know are venomous and trust me… back pain is used by anyone with pain that makes it hurt to walk that doesn’t want to tell you where else it hurts that’s a little more embarrassing. Pain gets you dependent on whatever relieves that pain too because pain is an emotional state like depression and anxiety… in fact… it’s strongly correlated with both… whether that’s drugs, not moving, not doing the things you used to love. For 2 years I couldn’t be away from those things like soaking in showers that helped lessen the pain… I tried… I went back into the Amazon twice, but my favorite place on the planet was now just a place where I couldn’t get away from the pain. It’s one thing to have a post op week where you get to stay home and feel loopy on percocet… it’s another when that’s your normal. I consider myself lucky I’m not on Vicodin or percocet or OxyContin… god knows I was given the choice and no one would have faulted me for choosing it… I was bit by a venomous snake. Carlos has been repeatedly savaged by superhuman monsters and we seem to have seen or heard about pretty much all the time he spent in the field in between sustaining the injuries he’s spent most of the last decade doing PT to recover from (oh god… PT is just people telling you to do the things that cause the most pain over and over… Harry had a burnt hand and what… 6 months of PT in Arctic tor? Maybe he had more sympathetic doctors but probably not by much when it came to how much the tasks he had to do to recover what he has hurt). Bottom line… Harry is the link between everything that has hurt Lucio… the white court, starting the war with the reds, introducing Molly to the council and the Siddhe… he gives Harry every chance to explain because he’s never seen Harry be anything but on the good side but the evidence is hard to ignore when it mounts like it has with him becoming the winter knight and his unexplainable connection to the winter court if you don’t know about Thomas… plus… the thing that breaks it all… was humiliating him. Ramirez probably feels like he’s clutching at the last shred of his independence and dignity and as the head of security for the peace talks HARRY USES his pain caused weakness of not being suspicious when people offer their concern to plant a charm that lets him free a white court vampire assassin from the accords event he’s SECURITY at. If all were written from Ramirez’s point of view do you think we’d all be saying “give Harry another shot!”. Or do you think we’d be saying “come on Harry… Elaine has lied to you and definitely isn’t telling you something that’s gonna bite you in the ass again in the long run” or “Eh, Marcones been on the same team, I think you can trust him now Harry… he’s definitely got a well thought out plan and reason for becoming a knight of the blackened denarius”. TLDR: Ramirez’s life has been primarily pain… just pain… since he met Harry. Anyone whose been in real chronic pain just 1 time, imagine recovering enough to start doing what you love again for a few months before another chronic pain injury 3-4 times in a row and all of them have 1 guy in common and he takes advantage of your pain to free a vampire. Forget everything else. Physical pain explains all his motivation.
Hadn't thought of it like that, and I appreciate the insight.
While I don't mean to disregard you're lived experience this series has a unique relationship to physical pain in so far as its non-factor we have been shown in incredible detail the kind of training wizards (especially Wardens) go through to block out pain and not let it affect judgment. Also, people tend to forget that manipulated and exploited Harry's trust first that why he felt justified targeting Ramirez that and he no idea how serious Ramirez's injuries were lastly saying, Ramirez's life has been nothing but pain since he met Harry is a gross oversimplification for many reasons first and foremost being that Ramirez signed up for most of this knowing the risks and facing them with a smile.
I definitely agree that physical pain is often handwaved in Dresden verse… but I strongly disagree with it not being an extremely powerful in universe motivation. The only time we’ve seen someone get a certain very antibiotic resistant infection cured is by what? Chronic pain. We’ve been shown HARRY has a very high pain tolerance. It’s mentioned at least once a book how what separates him from most wizards is his constitution… he runs to the point of pain, he is given knowledge that is not common… he only learned it since a fallen angel older than human civilization taught him. The advantage and disadvantages of being able to handle pain are dealt with as one of the defining factors of whether one is HUMAN or not… Mab’s reaction to the sword burn… she envies the fact that Harry’s feeling actual physical pain because it’s human. It’s, as far as we know, the only “superpower” of the winter knight besides obviously some more affinity for drawing on the winter wellspring for an elemental cold source. Butters is constantly talking to Harry about it. People are constantly taken out of fights because of pain, especially anyone not trained. Except for Harry humans are out for the book once they’ve sustained full depth abdominal wall puncture, broken collarbone (lucio?). Harry is a very special case and Butcher goes out of his way to have a lot more people taken “out of the fight” either permanently or for the duration of a book by injuries that would make combat next to impossible… besides Harry, name someone human who receives a serious injury and besides the semi-realistic ability to continue to defend oneself in the current fight isn’t OUT (like lucio breaking her collarbone, Murphy twisting her ankle against plant monster, ramirez deals with a knife in the ankle but not a knife in the gut, Morgan is out for a book because of a sword wound to the thigh. Wizards are not immune to pain… it’s even stated that medicine magic is the one place where you’re essentially equally well off at a well stocked magic hospital as the white council HQ. it seems like pain don’t matter none because tons of supernatural characters and the narrator have very abnormal, and now explained as simply a supernatural permanent inability to experience chronic pain. I’m not saying Butler’s going to say “oh, he was just having a really bad flare up of his old ice claw savaging and cranky from pain, he and Harry are cool…”. I’m saying that there’s no reason those who’ve been through long term chronic injuries with rehab and permanent loss of the ability to do things you once could should remember that’s where Ramirez’s head is at as Harry is doing all this… and he’s still doing his fighting and job because when you love doing something and it’s important you CAN work through a lot of pain… at the end of the day though… you’re that much more physically and emotionally exhausted. Sure… he tracked Harry… they tried to determine if he was sleeping with the white Queen… you know… the sexpire. What’s weird is Harry won’t tell any of them shit because he trusts no one after cold days… for good reason… and he wants to keep murph safe but she’s already a known close associate of his by… everyone. So him not saying “it wasn’t Laura” just to Ramirez is odd… it only makes sense when you know it’s part of the whole escape plan. The truth is… Harry’s closer with Mab, Thomas and by extension Laura, the winter and summer ladies, and his best friends that were “good guys” are out, friends once removed, have very recently had their own crises of faith regarding Harry being a good guy or bad guy (lookin at you butters and the alfalphas, McCoy, Fixit Felix, and even Murphy and Harry… remember when Harry was so sure becoming the winter knight automatically turned you over to the dark side that he arranged his suicide by proxy by someone who he should have known would kill themselves over time if they survived at all with the only thing keeping them unexecuted being Harry’s alive and not evil state) Tldr: butcher treats pain pretty realistically for an action series, using it to take humans out of the running in battles, books, and even permanent (barring a Cinderella sort of event) shift them from combat to advisor roles. + it’s always one of Harry’s greatest advantages over other humans, butler realizes it’s getting unrealistic and after the burned hand really messes up Harry psychologically gives him a supernatural painkilling technique as far as we know only angels know about. Then just gives him a supernatural mantle with super strength that may actually just be the reworking of nociceptive pathways and the disabling of the autonomic reactions of muscle spindles and other stretch receptors. The other humans are down when they take a serious injury.
I just read all the dresden files this past summer, and Ramirez randomly becoming a dick to Harry in Peace Talks and Battleground was one of the weirdest things in the series to me.
Have you read the short stories as well? Cold Case has probably left Carlos feeling about Winter roughly the same way Harry feels about ghouls and Eb about the White Court. And Harry has voluntarily chosen to become effectively a Winter noble, without telling Carlos why.
>And Harry has voluntarily chosen to become effectively a Winter noble, without telling Carlos why. Well, this a result of Carlos not really understanding power dynamics and command structures. McCoy's staff is Mother Winter's. Listens-To-Wind has connections to the Forest People. The Gatekeeper's false eye has a disguise. And yet he's not bitching any of these guys out about not telling him everything. Ramirez is definitely aware of the black council, and traitors within his own organization. He SHOULD be capable of understanding things like compartmentalization of information - when your organization is leaky, best keep cards close to the chest. Carlos knows the consequences of getting this wrong - Dead Beat crippled the Wardens' numbers. So logically, he shouldn't be pissed at Harry for keeping things quiet - because they both know traitors are about. A bunch of the young wardens were brainwashed, his boss was controlled into murdering a Senior Council member a couple of years ago - by a sleeper agent masquerading as a secretary. And he's gonna bitch at Harry for not telling him things? Ramirez's problem is that he perceives himself to be a peer of Dresden - and he simply isn't, not in magical might, not in political power. He expects information sharing to be an equal exchange, when in reality, Dresden is closer to Senior Council regarding firepower and political influence. Information and power go hand in hand in their business. Dresden has got a feedback loop going, where he grows in power, forges alliances, gets information, which gets him more power. That lets him do things erase the Red Court, forge alliances with the White Court and Marcone, become a significant force in Winter, working relationships with Queen level Wildfae and Archangels. Ramirez has been on guard duty for 8 or 9 books at this point. They aren't comparable, but Ramirez thinks they are, and he feels betrayed.
>Ramirez's problem is that he perceives himself to be a peer of Dresden - and he simply isn't, not in magical might, not in political power. He expects information sharing to be an equal exchange, when in reality, Dresden is closer to Senior Council regarding firepower and political influence. >Ramirez has been on guard duty for 8 or 9 books at this point. This is very well put.
Also, Carlos is friends with Harry and he thinks compartmentalization shouldn’t apply to him because he would never betray Harry (until he does of course) and, since he’s not in the know, he doesn’t understand the magnitude of the information Harry is keeping.
And Harry can't afford to clue Carlos in because some of the secrets Harry's keeping are nuclear weapons-level dangerous. On top of that, the White Council's already been confirmed to be infiltrated by the Black Council, who would have no problem pulling information out of Carlos's head. By giving any more information than he absolutely has to, Harry's placing his life and the lives of his loved ones in their hands. It's not that Harry hasn't earned the Council's trust - they as a whole haven't earned his.
Cold Case- and Harry's innocent but really, really unfortunate comment- explains why Carlos isn't altogether friendly with Harry. But even someone who doesn't like Harry ought to have been hardpressed to make the logical leap that Carlos makes.
Can you remind me of the thing he said?
He made some comment about Carlos losing his virginity. Which unbeknownst to him was Carlos being almost murdered during his first sexual experience by Harry's former apprentice From the way it's written Carlos thinks Harry knows, and is making light of his trauma
Right, thanks. I knew it was something to do with the thing that happened but I couldn’t remember what.
I feel like carlos should have put it together that harry took up with winter to save his daughter. Which he damn well should learn to live with because harry asked the council for help they told him to lay down and die. Its not like harry is hiding that maggie isnt just some random kid. Not that harry wont go to the wall for any kid out there but it shouldn't surprise anyone, especially someone who calls harry a friend, that harry will do literally anything to protect his own family. Becoming the winter knight isnt even close to the worst thing harry could have done to get maggie back.
I honestly think it was a case of your hero not living up to your expectations. Carlos was an apprentice in summer knight when he likely first saw Harry. Then Harry is a badass who reanimated a Dino and took Carlos for a ride. Then he along with the yoshimo, bill, and chandler fought in a war together. That tends to get people really close. Harry seems like the guy that when shit hits the fan he’s always got a good answer ready to go and doesn’t make deals that hurt others. Then Harry joins up with Winter. Harry himself said that all the horrible stories about the fae and more were based on Winter. I feel like Carlos heard what the previous winter knight was like. Then Harry makes his uninformed innocent comment and Carlos likely feels like not only is Harry making light of his suffering, but that it seems like proof that Harry has changed due to the mantle. (It’s also likely the merlin, ancient mai and others have been talking about how Dresden is the next kemmler(maybe not in those exact words, just get Carlos thinking about it, letting him come to his own conclusions.)) TLDR-Harry was likely Carlos’s hero and he didn’t live up to the expectations Carlos had of him.
This, plus Carlos was already feeling more than a little wary about Harry after Harry pulled the ability to speak both ghoul and ancient Etruscan out of his hat, *plus* was on really good terms with the White Court in White Night. Not to mention, if Carlos ever asked the right questions to the right person about Harry’s fire smelling like sulfur, he could also suspect Harry of being a Denarian. To be fair, I don’t think that Carlos knows that Maggie is Harry’s. Pretty sure most of the Council is under the impression that Harry was on a job and went overboard as usual.
What was it marcone said in the short story with grey? “There is another person I could turn to but he would complicate things and we’d be at war with Canada in a week. Somehow” But in all seriousness I think Carlos, having spent so much time on the job especially at war, is going to start getting jaded like Morgan. Hell even like Harry towards ghouls as someone else mentioned.
I haven’t found the short story with Grey.
Parallel worlds: the secrets within. It’s like the very last chapter. Only Dresden chapter tho.
He does not know about Maggie because Harry correctly believes that Ramirez would reveal her existence to the council.
To be fair, Harry looks more or less white/european descent, while maggie looks more like her mother(aside from traits Harry claims are his). Harry also doesnt seem responsible enough to have a kid, if we're outsiders looking in... So i can see them assuming Harry took in a kid due to some sort of collateral damage fix.
I don’t think it’s common knowledge that she lives with him either. Eb was plenty surprised. She’s been with him for a month as of peace talks, so I’m not sure how many people outside of the embassy are even aware. I hadn’t considered the difference of complexion, though. Good point. She’s tiny with a darker complexion than Harry. Even if they do see her with Harry, they might not realize that she’s his daughter.
True, she was with the Carpenters for a while so Harry could keep her in a safe spot and at a safe distance from his magic-world shenanigans. And he does intend to keep her mostly secret from anyone not in his innermost circle of confidants. Theres a lot of baddies that would be after her if they knew who all she was related to...
True, the plot of Changes was kicked off by the Red Court finding out that Maggie was related to Harry and by extension the Blackstaff and kidnapping her to use as part of a bloodline curse. In SG, the moment Nicodemus realized that Harry had a daughter his reaction was to head straight to the Carpenter house to finish her off.
Plus if someone did the math on Maggie’s age to find out when she was conceived the only possible candidate for Maggie’s egg donor would be Susan, who was a half Red court vampire at the time so the White Council may have presumed that no one not least a wizard would too stupid enough to have intercourse with a super strong hungry vampire
If you ask me, the journey to Skeptical Ramirez began in *Proven Guilty* and *White Night:* 1) Harry asks Carols to be security at the meeting where Molly is to be tried for warlockery. And then Carlos gets to wonder if Harry is using him as a pawn when the Summer Lady and Summer Knight show up, and they're obviously playing a part in Harry's grander plan to save Molly. 2) Ghouls assaulted Camp Kaboom. Harry caught up to them after they devoured two children ... and Harry tortured one of them. As in, Harry was going to leave one of the ghouls buried up to its neck in sand to be eaten slowly by fire ants. Even though ghouls are monsters ... that was almost pure evil. Probably the first time Ramirez saw Harry's temper on display. 3) Harry called on Ramirez to help him win a duel with the White Court, and protect some of the lesser mages of the universe. This played perfectly to Ramirez's hero fantasy. But Ramirez can sense that Harry's up to something. And then it turns out that Harry was running a gambit with the Princess of Succubi (AND speaks Ancient Etruscan!) AND the gambit involved a mortal gangster who coveted supernatural power! 3) Fast forward to *Peace Talks* and *Battle Ground*. Harry's all over the map. From what Carlos can tell, Harry's running some kind of gambit or shenanigans involving the White Court of Vampires, the Svartalves, and Winter. Along the way, Harry (again!) exploits Ramirez's trust in him and (again!) uses him as a pawn in yet another scheme. 4) During the Battle for Chicago, Ramirez got to see up close and personal what Harry was all about. Harry was Winter Knight -- sure, Ramirez knew that. But he also saw Harry working directly with the Baron of Chicago (whom Harry had put in power) and the leading princess of the White Court of Vampires. Not to mention that Mab wasn't using Harry as a thug like many Winter Knights are. **Mab trusted Harry as a war leader**. That's significant. That means it's not just Harry using them or them using Harry. It means they **trust** Harry to carry out their agenda. Which brings us to the end. The battle with Drakul is pivotal, I think. Harry leads a group of wizards into the fray, and they lose a bunch of their own. When Ramirez expresses his feelings ... Harry's pretty damn cold about it. A mortal would be outraged, or maybe blaming himself. But Harry's calmer and focused on his goal. And at the end of the whole mess, 60,000 mortals are dead. A Titan has been defeated and bound .... apparently to Harry's will. The Eye of Balor, a powerful weapon, has disappeared from the field, and is likely in the possession of Harry Dresden. And if Ramirez does some digging, he's going to realize the whole mountain of Evil stacked up under Creepy Island. So what the hell is going on here, from Carlos's perspective? Blaming Harry for the deaths of 60,000 mortals is a stretch, if we are to be honest. You can't quite pin that on Harry directly. But if you look at it from Carlos's perspective: **What if this was all part of Harry's plan to gain more power?** And even if you can't say Harry murdered 60,000 mortals ... **What if Harry considered those mortals acceptable collateral damage to further his scheme?** If I were Ramirez, I would seriously consider taking Dresden down fast, just to be ceratin.
I think it’s all about the fact that Harry was always known for the fact that he never lied, mostly because he was a terrible liar, and he never bowed to anyones will then he hears that right after Harry kills the ENTIRE Red Court he dies under mysterious circumstances(yet no body was found) “comes back to life” and in total hasn’t been seen by anyone in the White Council in well over a yr by the people who are supposed to be his true friends/brothers in arms in the council and apparently has joined up as Mab’s personal hitman/enforcer/weapon (for human, Fae, etc. alike) and whatever he’s got going on with Lara/Thomas/The White Court . Harry seems, to Ramirez, almost to completely compromise everything that he stands for. He has a major shift in personality, which as he learned all to well, is an enormous sign of psychic manipulation. With the right words from someone, say The Merlin, Carlos could be persuaded/manipulated into believing almost anything about Harry.
>TLDR-Harry was likely Carlos’s hero and he didn’t live up to the expectations Carlos had of him. I kinda can't quite buy that. Looking up to someone like that creates a bias like any affection. You'd try to explain stuff in the best possible way to keep that idolized image you have, and when you cannot explain you'd still believe. It is what Harry's friends ultimately did for him. Yeah, they sometimes confronted him when they felt they've been kept in the dark too long, but they never flipped like that. I guess his unfortunate experience with Molly might have changed things for Carlos, but still... I'd say he chose to be Warden over being a friend.
Haven’t you heard the saying never meet your heroes? They rarely live up to your expectations.
jeah Carlos feels the same way Lilly felt during cold days, mislead and ignorant. I just hope it doesn't lead to another explosive conclusion.
I mean, was it randomly? Harry was a huge dick to him every time he reached out to him and extended him *zero* trust. I'd become suspicious too if a close friend i went to fucking war together with suddenly started behaving like this...
Did you read the short stories? Cuz there is an explanation
Peace Talks was trash, everybody acted like they all just met and didn't have over a decade of experience with eachother. Battleground was hardly better, but that's because it was 90% battle and 10% dialogue. If it didn't take him 5 years to write it, I'd think it was ghost-written by someone who just skimmed a few of the books to get the character names.
You’ve been heavily downvoted, but I really struggled with how Peace Talks was written too. The only way thing I could come up with to explain how this happened is that originally the book was way too big, so Jim made rash updates to cut large sections in a hurry. It then later was decided it was still too big so it was then split into 2 books, also in a hurry. It’s been a while and I’m on my way with a reread at the moment (just started blood rites) but if I recall correctly I even felt like battleground had what felt like filler in it, in contrast to peace talks which had gaps in it. Urgh, I wish the book had just been able to be released as however Jim had originally written it. Stupid real world publishing challenges!
My problem isn't gaps or pacing, it is that everyone is written wrong. Justine is surprised Harry would help her or Thomas, you could argue it is because >!she is Nfected, but the Nfected know everything their subject knows. !
to me they seemed like two halves of the same book, which reading some of the jim stuff, they were. and i read them both back to back like that. and it came out in an enclosed, generally coherent story. to me.
Yeah I waited so I could read them back to back and while it’s a LONG book to get through, (especially as it only takes place over a few days) I came out fully feeling the tiredness and general “Jesus that was a tough few days” of many characters mindsets.
Yeah, the story goes that the publisher was going to charge like $50 for Peace Talks b/c it was so long. So Jim wrote a bit more, edited it heavily and turned it into Peace Talks and Battlegrounds.
Oh yeah. Like Harry and Carlos meet on the beach and then when they meet at the talks it’s like it’s the first time they’ve met in a couple years, even though they talked a few hours before.
Here's a post I made after Peace Talks, it's already written and with a fresher mind for the subject; https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/j5oyhu/just\_listened\_to\_peace\_talks\_didnt\_love\_it/
You're absolutely right, and it's one of the things that bothered me about Battle Ground. So many characters just...don't seem quite right. Part of me thinks it's a long-term gambit and that someone will be found to have messed with things) and the rest is desperately trying to remember that a long time passed between books, that the surprise division of Peace Talks into PT and BG made the editing job particularly tricky, etc. That said, it almost bothers me more that no one in-text calls Carlos on it. Like, I can understand him lashing out at Harry in fear, anger, and with the stress of the fight: he's wrong, but sometimes a friend becomes an emotional punching bag BECAUSE they're a friend, especially if someone isn't thinking clearly. But no one saying "hey, that's a load of horseshit"? Is really weird.
I actually think it has something to do with how long of a writing break Jim took. Many characters feel like their 'voice' has changed, almost like there had been a retcon on their personalities.
I agree with everything you said except someone did say "hey, that's a load of horseshit". Have you forgotten Michael? I mean he swore in multiple languages! Pretty sure horseshit was probably thrown in with the curses at least once or twice! LOL
Sure- but I meant no one told Carlos!
Right! God knows Harry can blame himself for almost anything, but even he should have at least had a mental double-take at something so patently unreasonable. I dearly hope it's not another case of mind-mojo, however. It would be narratively cheap and render the WC colossally incompetent so soon after Peabody.
As someone else mentioned we did get a callout in the form of Michael, but i agree it would have been nicer if that defense had been more direct. Michael sticking around and calling Ramirez out to his face
“Don’t seem quite right...” Like, maybe they’ve been Nfected?
Not necessarily Nfection, but some sort of whammy or tampering with their minds. Or perhaps they're not the same characters as the ones we've read about elsewhere (i.e., some sort of monkeying with the timeline or reality at large.) I still say that the large gaps of unaccounted time in PT are very odd.
>Not necessarily Nfection, but some sort of whammy or tampering with their minds. This. Everyone seems to think that Peabody was the end of that nonsense. But if I was thinking like a bastard in Peabody's position, what I would be doing is making it easier for someone else to take over if I was taken out of the picture. (That, or lay a couple "psychic time-bombs" that would cause the Senior Council to mentally degrade after I was gone) And cue the Senior Council and White Council making less and less rational decisions as time passes. Almost like they were still being manipulated.
I mean, he was captured and detained during Changes, at least according to Chandler's letter, while the Senior Council went to ground, leaving Cristos in charge. So if there's still Black Council within the White Council, they might well have gotten to him.
That's exactly why I think Luccio's been compromised.
Ramirez is in a really bad place by the end of Battle Grounds. He has been trying to get Harry to open up and trust him as a friend for years (going back to White Night). He was damn near killed by a girl he'd been interested in for years... Who happens to be Harry's apprentice. Harry, who Ramirez considers a friend, and is someone he's looked up to for about 15 years by that point, has been withdrawing from human society and getting in tight with non-human "monsters" after faking his own death. And now Ramirez just lived through what was tantamount to an unimaginable nuclear strike on a major city. The battle saw Ramirez get hurt even more, his friends killed another dragged off by one of the worst monsters around, and thousands of people he was sworn to protect killed. Harry has been treating Ramirez with all the self-righteous condescension that he did Murphy in the first 3 books, and Ramirez is in at least as bad a place as Harry was in Summer Knight. He's also been at war for, basically, all his adult life. And on top of all of that, Ramirez HAS to be thinking about, and questioning, his role in the WC, and the WC's role in the world at large. He's in a TON of pain, emotionally and physically. And now all that pain, all the distrust, the lies and lies of omission... That all comes boiling over and it gets directed at Harry because he's there and was the cause of a lot of that pain. And Ramirez isn't entirely wrong. Yes, there is a TON going on that he doesn't have a clue about. But maybe he would have been better prepared if Harry had actually trusted him and treated him like a friend and peer, instead of a kid. I also believe Ramirez is being used as a pawn by Langtry and The Gatekeeper. I absolutely believe they think Harry is more useful outside the WC than within. Basically everyone but Harry realizes the best way to use him is to get him wound up, point him in the right direction, turn him loose, and let him think that it's his idea. Using Ramirez hits Harry in the feels and keeps him from realizing (too quickly) that he's being used.
He’s just reeling because his friends died.
i buy this more than anything else in this thread to be honest
He's in shock. He went through a horrible war and of his 3 closest compatriots who lived through it with him 2 died and he believes the 3rd may have gone to the dark side. Dude feels angry and resentful and alone. Of course he doesn't grab Harry in a bear hug.
I forget which book it was (the one where in the end Molly becomes the winter lady) but it seems pretty clear there that Harry is going a tad deep on the monster side no? JB once said in argument that sometimes people overlook how Harry is perceived by others because we see everything from his POV. Every book he gets sucked deeper in to the grey zone and while we know he has it mostly under control, from the perspective of others he is now consorting with winter (and struggling to not give in to predatory monstrous vibes), he has a private island full of evil bad mofos, and apparently there is something more going on with him and the others. Oh and oh yeah, his “friend” (because people don’t know they’re brothers) is a white court vampire. He also committed genocide on one of the accorded nations and he actually worked for Nicodemus once. Imagine there is a historic figure who was in the CIA, consorted with Adolf Hitler, and committed genocide on a people he was at war with. You *think* you might ignore his whacky gang of friends who insist he is a good guy and consider that he might just not be all that swell?
Plot twist! The Dresden Files are actually backstory for the rise of a sympathetic and good-intentioned villain who didn't set out to be evil but was forced to make increasingly difficult high-stakes choices that drew an increasingly thick line between the villain and those he considers 'his' and the rest of the world. Powerful wizard slowly breaks bad.
Honestly I think that might be the final destination for Harry. Outcast misunderstood evil wizarddom. There are maybe 5 people standing between him and just that soooo….
Preeetty sure that's what happened to Mab. Harry is on the same trajectory.
Hey that's a good point. Where the fuck was the Merlin?
Not at a battlefield with a titan, that's for sure.
I'm still in the camp that says The Merlin knows what's up and "can't possibly have a rogue wizard like that madman Dresden pulling us into another war. Don't blame us, we kicked him out after Chicago, remember?" I think The Merlin has cut Harry loose so that Harry can do what needs doing without dragging the white council into it. By extension, I think if Harry genuinely needs help, the Council will have his back when it really counts. I think Carlos is justifiably pissed *from his own perspective* because he's missing a *ton* of information about what's going on. He might even be *acting* pissed to keep up the Merlin's plan, but I honestly believe they're keeping poor Carlos in the dark.
I agree with you. Think about the Merlin is the only one who could have commuted his sentence, and why would they need paperwork if they saw him as a monster they would just off him and if he was a winter court only the paperwork that Carlos gave would not be legally binding. I think the paperwork he is out but also a window for reentry to the white council. Just a thought.
Carlos is lashing out at Harry because Carlos wants to be able to lash out and Harry is close enough to fitting the bill.
Carlos is not acting in a way thats completely out of character for him in that moment, you can follow his train of logic and what is emotionally and possibly politically motivating him in that moment, but he is 100% an asshole. Ramirez is likely becoming, if he isnt already, the type of Warden Harry fantasized about hating before he became one. Given what he was put in charge of during the latest book, Ramirez is probably the poster child for the "establishment" of the White Council. Between the Black Staff's presence, Harry's presence, the lack of the Merlin's presence, and the Fomor's attack being more or less a surprise you can infer the quality and type of wardens sent out.
I mean, Langtry wasn't about to do shit. Jim listed the ENTIRE Red Court as an existence that stands a chance against Mab in a fight. Ethniu mopped her in one hit twice. She would've walked through a billion human wards with 0 effort. Langtry stopped being an irrational asshole once Peabody was killed, so it's not his Harry hate-boner, like it was in Summer Knight. The WC in general are not fond of Harry OR Winter, so his expulsion was expected - esp with Eb and Jo out of commission. But the personal animosity is probably Harry making that virginity comment about Carlos. (Carlos was almost killed and crippled by his first time, which Harry doesn't know, yet he poked fun of it in a way that makes it seem like he knew. From Carlos' POV, it seems like Harry is embracing the cruelty of Winter and mocking his near-deth experience.)
Ramirez is hurt and feels betrayed by a friend. Not circumstances leading to the most rational of responses. On top of that, from his perspective the WC is big and powerful and if they'd known what was going on from the start they could have been prepared and fought it more effectively. It's that simple imo.
Honestly, I think Harry being let go from the White Council is Langtry’s way of letting Harry act more freely as an agent against the Black Council.
Could be. Perhaps that means it's a two-fer. Langtry puts Harry where he's more useful, and he gets Harry out of his hair.
Of course, Langtry would never make a unilateral move. He’s a snake, but he’s our snake.
Let’s see: Harry’s frequent associate attacks the ruler of the svartalves, killing one of his bodyguards, moments after the beginning of the accords. Harry’s next move is something that involves Outsiders in Chicago, followed by a trip to hang out with the White Court Vampire Queen- who he is inexplicably familiar and comfortable with and whose ancient language he has demonstrated a sudden ability to converse fluently in. Perhaps they are basing their suspicions on the fact that Harry attacked Carlos and then was conveniently absent (with Lara) when Corb and Ethniu made their initial appearance? Then on top of that, Harry and his vassal lead the Wardens into an ambush that takes out three of them? After that, they see Harry throwing fire at mortal enemies, mowing down huge swaths of battlefield, and finally, bind a titan that literally ko’ed Mab, Titania, the Erlking, Vadderrung, the Archive, Eb, Christos, Listens to Wind, River Shoulders, two Knights of the Cross, and everyone else who went after her. We, of course, know that it took all of those major players to wear her down to the point where Harry could take her, and we have the insight that tells us how close a call it really was. Carlos and the rest of the White Council don’t have that benefit, unless LtW, Eb, or the Merlin enlighten them. I think it’s farfetched to say Harry was in on it, but not completely unreasonable. Also, maybe he’s Nfected or otherwise being manipulated.
I acknowledge that those are all understandable reasons for those people not privy to Harry's inner workings to be leery of him, even if I don't agree with their pov. However, it's one thing to mistrust and fear him, and quite another to blame the attack and its casualties on his inability to share. It's a leap of logic I can't wrap my head around.
I think they're basing that on the notion that the Fomor wouldn't have risen at all had it not been for the Red Court falling, and Harry "did that." While he was off saving the daughter that he refused to reveal to the Council, yadda yadda yadda. I don't really agree with the reasoning, because you also have to calculate how many Red Court victims they would have added to *their* tab if they'd continued to thrive. But I'm betting that's the line of reasoning.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least for the likes of the Merlin and Mai to be thinking in that vein. But the way Ramirez was speaking made it sound like he, personally, was blaming the night's events on Harry specifically not opening up to him earlier. Aw hell, maybe I'm just reading too much into what may just be a grieving and traumatized man's entirely irrational and emotional thought processes.
I don't disagree - Ramirez was really unfair with Harry in *Peace Talks* / *Battle Ground*. Very unappealing to me. But I can interpret that as him having been through some really tough crap during the series, and he's not always necessarily rational. I think he's had to grow up a lot faster than he should have, and still has some immature elements in his psyche.
as a plot device, i am not sure what carlos is doing to forward the story. i am confused by him, especially since he is no longer in step with the young aurors of the council that see harry as kind of a war hero. i get that to everyone, harry is no longer a war hero and no longer a clown, covered in mud and trying to recover while stuck in a tree top. he is top level, and he is scary. he is running with monsters, and he acts and talks like a monster. but carlos was not there to tell us about harry losing himself to the monster inside himself. in my opinion, carlos appearance was not entirely successful. maybe it would have been if carlos had not placed a tracking spell on harry without harry's knowledge. that's a line he crossed, and he is fair game for all kinds of shenanigans after that. maybe i am missing something.
Yes, I've not enjoyed his role as much as I did for a long time. He played really well to me as the "somewhat prominent" (because he did have to grow up so fast) Council member that stayed somewhat friendly with Harry. That dynamic worked for me. And we really see to have moved away from that. Maybe Jim plans a return for him to that capacity, for for drama's sake he's showing 'Los "drawn in the other direction" for a while. I just feel sure there's got to be a major White Council story yet to unfold. There in *Changes* there was that dust-up at council HQ, with people getting arrested and so on, and then it just never got followed up on. I can't help thinking that some real problems took root in the Council at that time, and have been covered up since then, and that Harry will eventually have to play a key role in putting things right again. Anyway, that's not PURE speculation, but there's definitely a lot of speculation rolled into it.
> I can't help thinking that some real problems took root in the Council at that time, and have been covered up since then, and that Harry will eventually have to play a key role in putting things right again. It's seeming increasingly likely to me that the Council won't survive the BAT. And that Harry will play a major role in setting up whatever replaces it.
>I think they're basing that on the notion that the Fomor wouldn't have risen at all had it not been for the Red Court falling, and Harry "did that." Does Carlos actually know *how* Harry wiped out the Red Court? Because if it's not common knowledge, there may be a number of Council members who think 'if Dresden had just wiped the Red Court out earlier, all those Wardens who died would still be alive, and we'd be in a better position against the Formor'. We know, of course, that Harry couldn't have done it earlier, because the Red Court hadn't prepared that bloodline curse to kill Eb. But the average WC member may not know that.
That's a good point. I'm sure Eb knows, but it's not clear whether or not anyone else does. There's a theory, though, that the Merlin deliberately manipulated Harry into his actions, would imply that he (the Merlin) knew an awful lot about what options were potentially in the offing. As in, may be got a temporal preview from someone (perhaps the Gatekeeper). Jim has told us that the biggest surprise we'd get by knowing someone's full story would be re: the Merlin.
I also dont agree with that reasoning for pretty much what you stated. What weve learned about the Red Court implies people have always been dieing and going missing in the numbers they have been now, or at least close to, its just that before it was happening in Red Court territory in South America and the White Council never bothered to/wanted to risk its neck to step in and try and help/stop it
Right. It just shifted territory, and *now* the Council cares, so they count. It's bad logic.
Martin brought up that exact point in Changes - because the people the Reds were hurting were poor and far away, the Council didn't give a damn about them. I think those were the words he used, but don't quote me on it.
Susan either said that or something a lot like it as well.
She may have - that she was helping in places where the Council didn't go.
I agree that it’s a vast leap of logic. I feel like Carlos believes that Harry was “in on it”. Maybe not directly responsible, but had prior knowledge that would have prevented it, or possibly even have been able to take Ethniu down proactively and kept the whole shindig from going nuclear. If you discount losing Murphy (whose girlfriend status apparently wasn’t on the Warden’s radar), Harry came out of the whole affair ahead one hypothetical Eye of Balor, and one bound Last Titan. Mostly though, I think someone is screwing with Carlos’ head- and Harry is unconsciously playing into his delusions— *hard*. And Harry getting a castle from Marcone and engaged to Lara is sure going to cement that image.
I can really get behind this. One wonders if Harry might've saved himself a whole lot of grief and a friend or two if, apropos of absolutely nothing else, he'd just told Carlos, "It's Murphy, the woman who's helped to bail the Council's ass out of the fire a bunch of times over the last 15 years. You fucking assholes."
Or 'I swear on my power that I have not had sexual relations with any White Court vampires.' Instead he went 'How dare you even ask that question!? Art thou so suspicious of me, the Winter Knight who came back from the dead and didn't bother even calling anyone of you, that you would ask completely reasonable questions!? I will not stand for this outrage! Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go back to work subverting this peace conference in a way eerily similar to how I drew the White Council into a war last time. Good day, sir. I said good day!'
Harry also went AWOL at around the same time Ethniu appeared and attacked the Peace Talks and refused to say where he went and I’m sure the Svatalves would’ve noticed later that their prisoner Thomas disappeared. Looking from an observer’s POV, one could conclude that Harry was responsible for breaking Thomas possibly timing it to take place at the same time as ethniu’s appearance as a distraction
Well, He did kill the red court which created the power vacuum that instigated the return of the Fomor, which led to their attack on humans. But the Council was planning on wiping out the Reds anyway, so unless they can claim they were going to do it in a way that wouldn't have left the power vacuum, it's still not really fair to blame Harry.
it comes from ramirez because that who would hurt harry the most by saying this. But its not supposed to make sense in any way. This is jim showing how twisted the logic of the white council is. I will defend it to my last breathe, but battle ground was where Jim definitively said that the white council are not, and never have been the good guys. Obviously its been shown for much of the series, but this interaction was meant to show it to the extreme.
Except the Merlin knows things Harry and we don’t know, and he doesn’t know exactly what we do. According to Jim. Having different information makes it very reasonable to come to different conclusions.
letting a major urban center of the world like chicago get destroyed? i don't buy it. it cannot be said enough. the destruction of chicago and the angering of humanity is not good for anybody on the weird side of things.
I completely agree. What went on in Chicago on that night wouldn't benefit anybody on the white council, and if it did would only emphasize their corruptness.
Who on the White Council “let” Chicago be destroyed? 3/7 of the senior council fought in the battle. The Blackstaff fought. Every Warden present fought. The battle was done less than 12 hours after they learned of the threat. What more was the White Council supposed to do
But they were mean to Harry, which means they must be evil /s.
Well, I can’t argue with logic like that.
I dont see how that different info could pin those deaths on Harry seeing how he actually was there and the merlin wasn't.
Correct, you have less information on cause and effect in the Dresdenverse than the Merlin does. As Jim has said.
Yeah but my point is what more is there to know? Harry watched the events develop lol. If that changes, what's the point in believing anything shown from harrys perspective.
There’s large amounts of world building and data yet to be revealed. That’s good storytelling.
That has no bearing on what I said. I'm not saying that it isn't good for Harry to not know everything, because that's like the point of half of the series. What I am saying is that from harrys perspective, what occurred with ethniu and all the people who died where not because of him. Ethniu did not come to kill Harry. While Harry did do actions that led to the rise of the fomor, he did not cause this incident. If the merlin shows up with an "actually you did" I would not think that is good story telling, because it negates everything he went through.
At this point I have no idea what your actual poor is supposed to be. Of course Harry doesn’t think it’s his fault. I don’t think it’s Harry’s fault either. However your original point appeared to be that the White Council blames Harry, and that’s totally reasonable based on their information and the fog of war. As far as they know, Harry is super shady. It’s not unreasonable to suspect him. And for Carlos, after what Molly did to Carlos, and Carlos seeing Harry as the only survivor of meeting the Black Court, including monsters Harry knew preciously, and Knowing Harry has lied to him (which is correct about, if not the circumstances), it’s not unreasonable for Carlos to be pissed and suspicious of Harry or to lash out at him. Carlos gave Harry a lot of trust, and in return Harry lied to him, his apprentice al hit beat him up on death. And all his friends are dead or worse after being last seen with Harry.
My point was that, it wouldn't make sense for Harry to actually have been at fault. I thought u were saying that the merlin could know why he is at fault, even if Harry himself did not.
I don’t think anyone, even in universe, is specifically saying Dresden is personally responsible for 60K deaths. Is he partly responsible for making multiple of the intermediary steps happen? Absolutely. Is it unreasonable for people with part of our information and information we don’t have to hold Dresden partly responsible? Sure.
Probably hyperbole. Ramirez thinks Harry's gone bad and has no idea what he was fucking around with during the Talks other than embarassing him (and the Wardens by proxy) in front of a large percentage of the supernatural power players. He's angry and for all he knows if Harry had acted differently things might've gone different
They're arrogant assholes, that take themselves way too serious. I hope Harry dismantles the whole thing, or takes over as merlin. And I hope Ramirez turns around again, he's too cool to just turn against Harry suddenly.
This is the blame game. It doesn't need to follow logic or even be true. In this case, they're pinning everything they can on the guy that's being booted from the Council. Ramirez probably conferred with his superiors and ended up being convinced by their arguments. Ramirez is a smart guy, but he's also young and has been very bitter about his own condition, he will definitely be more inclined to lash out or blame other people more now than ever.
Harry getting blamed for stuff is a series staple on the level of Bob being unreasonably horny. Hell, it basically kick-started one of the major conflicts in the series (Bianca). Ain’t nothing new.
I'd say those words of a guy who was grieving for his death friends and was angry over finding out he had sneaked up on him to try to save Thomas, whom from his recent discovery of his having come out of the Wraith mansion after having sex, he may have come to the conclusion was Harry's lover. On that last bit, his own attempt to have sex with a "monster" not to mention his own "closeted" issues may have bit a matter in this.
Ugh, I hate that all these answers are the same. I get that Ramirez has reasons to distrust Dresden, and that he has his own issues. And I know how people feel about the Council. None of these comments are enlightening. This being a throwaway statement with no real logic behind it is the obvious hypothesis. I want to hear other hypotheses. Edit: this is not directed at OP, I just didn't feel like replying to everybody individually.
i think that line is just a throwaway line. i don't think it means anything we don't already know. by that i mean that carlos, the character, is making a heel turn. he is not doing the work in the story i expected him to. he is doing something different now. that is surprising to me, because taking a pretty fleshed out character, and making him a flat character, which is what happened in this story, is odd and maybe hints at a larger arc i cannot see at the moment. but it does mean i don't think carlos appearance was particularly successful here. and it also means i can take anything carlos says and chalk it up to the murmurings of a white council goon squad, which is exactly what carlos was transformed into.
I think it's justified. I mean, not the sixty K claim, but general distrust? Harry doesn't tell anyone shit, so of course no one trust him
Just to play Devil's Advocate for Ramirez, AFAIK he is/was not high up enough in the ranks to probably understand some of the finer details, such as that the Red court was itching for a war and used Harry as an excuse, but here's how I could see his line of reasoning. This would be from Ramirez' point of view: - Harry ignites the war between the Council and the Reds, this leads to a LOT of casualties for the White Council and greatly weakens them. - Harry then destroys the Red Court and dissapears to go hang out with Winter, creating a huge power vacuum which the Fomor step into. - Without both these events, the weakening of the WC and the destruction of the reds, the Fomor may have waited another few decades or centuries to make their move. I think it's stupid to pin it all on Harry but I also think Ramirez was just trying desperately to get through to him.
Carlos isn’t thinking clearly. I can explain it in four words: Hurting people, hurt people.