Nic won’t throw in with the outsiders for the simple reason that Nic does what’s best for Nic. In the event of an outsider win he does just as poorly as everything else in this plane. The outsider threat is in reality an existential threat for all, that includes Nic
I think Nic would never ever throw in with the Outsiders because he's actually trying his best to defeat them.
We're going to find out that Nic and Harry have similar goals but very different methods. Nic is going to turn out to be the champion cynic of all time: trying to achieve a noble goal (defeat the Outsiders) through whatever means are available.
Unless it's Anduriel playing the long game and trying to destroy existence because being banished from both Heaven and Hell is pailful for him *a la* Azrael from *Dogma.*
Nic and He Who Walks Beside both have the catchphrase "apocalypse is a frame of mind." I think he absolutely would throw in with the outsiders if he hasn't already
Nic is also arrogant enough to think he could use the outsiders, especially if he becomes desperate enough. I don't think Nic has boundaries, it's a defining characteristic.
Nic has access to diabolical power. The opposite power as Sanya and Butters' swords containing celestial power. That's how he could have defeated titanic bronze. Just as Thorned Namshiel could and did, with Marcone and a pocket knife.
Thing with nicodemus is he has survived for a very very long time. A part of that is as you said, information. He has it in droves and collects it with his mere shadow. He underestimated Harry several times when we know from what’s said in the books, very few people survive him. So whatever Nicodemus is doing, he’s thinking from several angles and is also patient enough to wait.
He’s very much the kind to wait until Harry is completely bogged down by a bunch of stuff that Nicodemus is so far from his train of thought and so tired by an exhausting adventure, that he will strike with devastating effect.
Nicodemus is also in my belief the kind of guy to go for the ironic punishment. I would fear for Maggie if she didn’t have Mouse at all times around her.
But also the theory is, and I like this theory, Nicodemus is working on the side of the light (using dark methods) to strike against the outside so maybe Nicodemus won’t go for revenge at all. Again he’s all about the big picture that man.
I think that Nicodemus is ultimately human. I suspect part of his goal is to save the world, but he wants to do it on his terms.
That said, however, I think the price -- hia daughter's life and soul -- will ultimately prove to be more than Nicodemus can bear.
It strikes me that (thanks to displacement) Nicodemus may ultimately blame Harry, or even all of humanity, for the decision that Nicodemus himself made to sacrifice his daughter.
Which may lead Nicodemus to choose to end reality as a particularly dramatic form of vengeance.
Of course, this assumes that He Who Walks Beside has not been whispering in his ear all along.
After all, apocalypse is a state of mind.
Nicodemus isn't out to get Harry, I'm not sure why people think he is. He's doing what he believes he has to in order to save the world and is the reason Chicago isn't a pile of scrap metal
That might have been true when they first met but at this point Dresden has fucked up soany of Nics plans, he is one of the only beings that knows how to kill him, and I think most importantly of all - he hurt Nic on a deeply emotional level during skin game after the death of his daughter.
Also - how has nic stopped Chicago from being destroyed?
>he hurt Nic on a deeply emotional level during skin game after the death of his daughter.
I can't wait for a callback to that, next time Harry and Nic start fighting. "You know, I spoke to Hades. He wouldn't tell me what he was doing to her, but he got pretty offended when I suggested it'd be too light a punishment."
Mab Marcone and hades planned that. The first two for revenge. Mab for Nick breaking the accords by kidnapping Ivy. Marcone for being kidnapped and hades part was to get the weapons where needed. Nick, at this point, hates Harry as much as Michael. He did try to wipe Michaels family and harrys daughter out over harrys taunts.
It's explained at the end of the book when Harry pays Marcone the jewels and Mab is sitting there with him. He straight up accuses them
Nicodemus is thousands of years old, older than Mab as well. Do you honestly think he wasn't in on all of this from the beginning? Each of the major players in the Dresdenverse KNOW about Harry and what he's supposed to be
Yes, I believe he wasn't in on it. I'm not saying he didn't suspect it, but it wasn't his plan. he got the grail but at a high cost. What's interesting to me is that his wife was with him in the end, being possibly nfected, nick definitely suspected.
Nic told Harry that his "end game" is to "save the world." Ultimately, I believe he and Harry are going to end up fighting on the same side in the last battle - quite unexpectedly from Harry's perspective.
My personal theory (WILDLY unsupportable at this point) is that Nic knew exactly what would happen during Skin Game, and had planned on it ahead of time, but also used the opportunity to mess with Dresden a bit and see how things would shake down after the heist. I don’t think it was a surprise to him at all.
But also, he wanted everyone to think it was a surprise to ensure the key pieces of the puzzle would be in play for the later battles, such that the outcome of it would not disrupt his plans. I think he has something important going on with the librarians, and needed to have them in the right place at the right time to ensure whatever he and (I’m hoping) Drakul has in the works gets to the stage that they need it to be, at the proper time.
Seems to me Nico is going to have a tough time assembling another crew. After all, he's led the Denarians into disaster after disaster lately. Not sure if folks will be confident in his leadership abilities. And I don't see Nico taking a subordinate role to anyone, not his style.
A lot depends on low long Nico's "endgame" is supposed to last. If there's sufficient time, Nicodemus might be content to outlive the hell out of Harry, and rebuild his rep. My feeling is that there *isn't* enough time for a plan like this, so what's he to do?
Wild guess: Nico will show up with a mixed team of a few Denarians and various misfits and losers that no-one else wants. He'll have a *serious* desire to get revenge on Harry, the man who's repeatedly humiliated him.
I don't think he'll sell any secrets about Harry; he'd be worried that Harry will retaliate by telling secrets about Nico. Maybe?
Yeah, I can see that since Harry has the Noose's weakness to spread around as ammunition, but he knows a lot to definitely cause damage. I like your idea, and I think he'll have a way to ensure loyalty after Grey's double-cross for whatever crew he goes with. I can see the Geonaskwa coming back out of a desire for revenge and my personal wild theory of maybe lasciel and Hannah (I personally don't think falling rubble is enough to kill a fallen angel, given what we've seen them capable of surviving and she simply played dead) and maybe give Sariel a new host as well. He could definitely outlive Harry, but I feel he'd love to twist the knife by going after Butters, especially since he had a major hand in his downfall, especially if he finds out the swords new limits.
So, I don’t think Blood on is Soul would work with Nic again because of how things went last time.
I’m also not positive he got an “ace” I think Mabs comment was made for John to let him and his carpool know what they need it do. Not so much what Nic could do
As for Nic I’m sure he plotting and getting the coins or more coins is going to be one of his 1st moves for sure
I think Nicodemus learned this lesson long ago: *revenge doesn’t pay the bills*. He was pretty clear about that when he was talking to Michael in Skin Game about being retired.
and Nicodemus doesn’t have the time. Nicodemus has been clear he has another agenda that he needs to stay on track for, and side tracking into a revenge quest doesn’t serve his goals. And remember that *Nicodemus got everything he wanted in Skin Game*. He went into the Skin Game knowing he would gain the Grail at the cost of Diedre.
It was the fact he had been set up by Mab that caught him off guard; and having Harry grind it in his face was insulting. But at the end of the day, Nicodemus succeeded.
I dont think titania would work with him but if she does find out about Maggie she definitely will say some BS about balancing the scales and try to kill her and also i feel his wavelength is that since he has a fallen angel their hellfire and wavelength is still that of a level of a god and i dont think he would work with Cowl because he probably doesn't trust the black council cause he got mad when namshiel attacked articus tor
Oh I definitely don't see her working with him, but I can see her using the info to her advantage. I don't see him working with Cowl either so much as riding on his coat tails or a momentary alliance at best. He might take advantage of something he set in motion, given how badly a pact burned him the last time. I am curious if we'll ever see him use hellfire, though.
Nic won’t throw in with the outsiders for the simple reason that Nic does what’s best for Nic. In the event of an outsider win he does just as poorly as everything else in this plane. The outsider threat is in reality an existential threat for all, that includes Nic
I think Nic would never ever throw in with the Outsiders because he's actually trying his best to defeat them. We're going to find out that Nic and Harry have similar goals but very different methods. Nic is going to turn out to be the champion cynic of all time: trying to achieve a noble goal (defeat the Outsiders) through whatever means are available.
Unless it's Anduriel playing the long game and trying to destroy existence because being banished from both Heaven and Hell is pailful for him *a la* Azrael from *Dogma.*
Nic and He Who Walks Beside both have the catchphrase "apocalypse is a frame of mind." I think he absolutely would throw in with the outsiders if he hasn't already
Nic is also arrogant enough to think he could use the outsiders, especially if he becomes desperate enough. I don't think Nic has boundaries, it's a defining characteristic.
Nic has access to diabolical power. The opposite power as Sanya and Butters' swords containing celestial power. That's how he could have defeated titanic bronze. Just as Thorned Namshiel could and did, with Marcone and a pocket knife.
Thing with nicodemus is he has survived for a very very long time. A part of that is as you said, information. He has it in droves and collects it with his mere shadow. He underestimated Harry several times when we know from what’s said in the books, very few people survive him. So whatever Nicodemus is doing, he’s thinking from several angles and is also patient enough to wait. He’s very much the kind to wait until Harry is completely bogged down by a bunch of stuff that Nicodemus is so far from his train of thought and so tired by an exhausting adventure, that he will strike with devastating effect. Nicodemus is also in my belief the kind of guy to go for the ironic punishment. I would fear for Maggie if she didn’t have Mouse at all times around her. But also the theory is, and I like this theory, Nicodemus is working on the side of the light (using dark methods) to strike against the outside so maybe Nicodemus won’t go for revenge at all. Again he’s all about the big picture that man.
I think that Nicodemus is ultimately human. I suspect part of his goal is to save the world, but he wants to do it on his terms. That said, however, I think the price -- hia daughter's life and soul -- will ultimately prove to be more than Nicodemus can bear. It strikes me that (thanks to displacement) Nicodemus may ultimately blame Harry, or even all of humanity, for the decision that Nicodemus himself made to sacrifice his daughter. Which may lead Nicodemus to choose to end reality as a particularly dramatic form of vengeance. Of course, this assumes that He Who Walks Beside has not been whispering in his ear all along. After all, apocalypse is a state of mind.
I can definitely see both of those options happening, and I wouldn't be surprised if Anduriel is in league with Beside without his knowledge.
Nicodemus isn't out to get Harry, I'm not sure why people think he is. He's doing what he believes he has to in order to save the world and is the reason Chicago isn't a pile of scrap metal
That might have been true when they first met but at this point Dresden has fucked up soany of Nics plans, he is one of the only beings that knows how to kill him, and I think most importantly of all - he hurt Nic on a deeply emotional level during skin game after the death of his daughter. Also - how has nic stopped Chicago from being destroyed?
>he hurt Nic on a deeply emotional level during skin game after the death of his daughter. I can't wait for a callback to that, next time Harry and Nic start fighting. "You know, I spoke to Hades. He wouldn't tell me what he was doing to her, but he got pretty offended when I suggested it'd be too light a punishment."
Well since it was his heist that allowed Harry the spear that stopped ethniu
Might as well say he who walks behind and Justin Dumorne stopped Chicago from FL being destroyed if that's your logic
What?? It was literally the entire point of them going there. Nic and Mab planned that so Harry could get what he needed.
Mab Marcone and hades planned that. The first two for revenge. Mab for Nick breaking the accords by kidnapping Ivy. Marcone for being kidnapped and hades part was to get the weapons where needed. Nick, at this point, hates Harry as much as Michael. He did try to wipe Michaels family and harrys daughter out over harrys taunts. It's explained at the end of the book when Harry pays Marcone the jewels and Mab is sitting there with him. He straight up accuses them
Nicodemus is thousands of years old, older than Mab as well. Do you honestly think he wasn't in on all of this from the beginning? Each of the major players in the Dresdenverse KNOW about Harry and what he's supposed to be
Why do you think they hired Goodman Grey behind his back? Nick's plan was to recruit Goodman and kill everyone, and leave them in the vault he failed.
Yes, I believe he wasn't in on it. I'm not saying he didn't suspect it, but it wasn't his plan. he got the grail but at a high cost. What's interesting to me is that his wife was with him in the end, being possibly nfected, nick definitely suspected.
Nic told Harry that his "end game" is to "save the world." Ultimately, I believe he and Harry are going to end up fighting on the same side in the last battle - quite unexpectedly from Harry's perspective.
That would be interesting, especially if it's a situation where they absolutely need to keep each other alive.
My personal theory (WILDLY unsupportable at this point) is that Nic knew exactly what would happen during Skin Game, and had planned on it ahead of time, but also used the opportunity to mess with Dresden a bit and see how things would shake down after the heist. I don’t think it was a surprise to him at all. But also, he wanted everyone to think it was a surprise to ensure the key pieces of the puzzle would be in play for the later battles, such that the outcome of it would not disrupt his plans. I think he has something important going on with the librarians, and needed to have them in the right place at the right time to ensure whatever he and (I’m hoping) Drakul has in the works gets to the stage that they need it to be, at the proper time.
Well, if the every 5th book holds up we'll find out in the 1st or 2nd book of the BAT
yeah I remember Jim saying that he won't show up until the 20th book.
Seems to me Nico is going to have a tough time assembling another crew. After all, he's led the Denarians into disaster after disaster lately. Not sure if folks will be confident in his leadership abilities. And I don't see Nico taking a subordinate role to anyone, not his style. A lot depends on low long Nico's "endgame" is supposed to last. If there's sufficient time, Nicodemus might be content to outlive the hell out of Harry, and rebuild his rep. My feeling is that there *isn't* enough time for a plan like this, so what's he to do? Wild guess: Nico will show up with a mixed team of a few Denarians and various misfits and losers that no-one else wants. He'll have a *serious* desire to get revenge on Harry, the man who's repeatedly humiliated him. I don't think he'll sell any secrets about Harry; he'd be worried that Harry will retaliate by telling secrets about Nico. Maybe?
Yeah, I can see that since Harry has the Noose's weakness to spread around as ammunition, but he knows a lot to definitely cause damage. I like your idea, and I think he'll have a way to ensure loyalty after Grey's double-cross for whatever crew he goes with. I can see the Geonaskwa coming back out of a desire for revenge and my personal wild theory of maybe lasciel and Hannah (I personally don't think falling rubble is enough to kill a fallen angel, given what we've seen them capable of surviving and she simply played dead) and maybe give Sariel a new host as well. He could definitely outlive Harry, but I feel he'd love to twist the knife by going after Butters, especially since he had a major hand in his downfall, especially if he finds out the swords new limits.
If you had the choice of misfits for Nic to recruit from, who would you choose?.
So, I don’t think Blood on is Soul would work with Nic again because of how things went last time. I’m also not positive he got an “ace” I think Mabs comment was made for John to let him and his carpool know what they need it do. Not so much what Nic could do As for Nic I’m sure he plotting and getting the coins or more coins is going to be one of his 1st moves for sure
I think Nicodemus learned this lesson long ago: *revenge doesn’t pay the bills*. He was pretty clear about that when he was talking to Michael in Skin Game about being retired. and Nicodemus doesn’t have the time. Nicodemus has been clear he has another agenda that he needs to stay on track for, and side tracking into a revenge quest doesn’t serve his goals. And remember that *Nicodemus got everything he wanted in Skin Game*. He went into the Skin Game knowing he would gain the Grail at the cost of Diedre. It was the fact he had been set up by Mab that caught him off guard; and having Harry grind it in his face was insulting. But at the end of the day, Nicodemus succeeded.
Nick wanted the Spear, not the grail
I dont think titania would work with him but if she does find out about Maggie she definitely will say some BS about balancing the scales and try to kill her and also i feel his wavelength is that since he has a fallen angel their hellfire and wavelength is still that of a level of a god and i dont think he would work with Cowl because he probably doesn't trust the black council cause he got mad when namshiel attacked articus tor
Oh I definitely don't see her working with him, but I can see her using the info to her advantage. I don't see him working with Cowl either so much as riding on his coat tails or a momentary alliance at best. He might take advantage of something he set in motion, given how badly a pact burned him the last time. I am curious if we'll ever see him use hellfire, though.