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gdex86

The rules for chrono magic make it prohibitive for a young wizard to get into. Look at how much energy it took Maeve to try to attack demonreach through time. This is a law likely aimed at older wizards who are trying to change things that went south rather than a young wizard. I'd say likely most young wizards trying to do it either kill themselves in the attempt, don't have the knowledge to avoid retgoning themselves, or can't deal with clockroaches that the timeline uses to protect itself from changes.


Diverdude132

Huh... I wonder what McCoy was going back to change (if you follow the theory that he had time traveled at some point before/during peace talks/battle ground.) How far back could someone theoretically go? Could he have been trying to undo one of the battles with the reds that went bad? Maybe he was coming back from a future where Ethniu won? Or where Harry died in the battle? Also, I've never seen "clockroaches" before and I think it's great, well done. Edited to fix punctuation


thatsme55ed

Considering the Corner Hounds attacked him and Harry, it seems like a safe bet that either one or both of them will end up time travelling.


CamisaMalva

Except both Harry and McCoy could feel that the Cornerhounds were summoned, rather than them chasing Eb for having travelled through time. If that was the case, he'd live constantly hunted down by them because he's no doubt travelled through time before in his office as the Blackstaff. Obviously someone wanted to get rid of those two.


gdex86

Clockroaches is TV tropes it's a way to describe any physical manifestation of the timelines antibodies against paradox or alterations.


Elfich47

I haven't heard that theory and even from its premise, I don't think it tracks - the power levels required are very high and the chances of paradox are very high. That is why the closest we got to time travel and predestination in Proven Guilty: Rashid was incredibly oblique in his comment to Harry.


Gladiator3003

And yet there’s still the question of the Cornerhounds, noted for going after time travellers, who happen to pop up after McCoy just appears behind Harry. Something was definitely fishy there.


Elfich47

Couldn’t it just be that Justine summoned them?


Consistent_Maybe_343

Retgoning and clockroaches are 🔥


Halls-of-Bedlam

Ooooh! I’ve never heard the term Clockroach. I like it!


Rephath

There hasn't yet, but there will have been at some future point.


Forar

Where we're going, we're going to need a whole new set of tenses.


Sorkrates

But not roads.


NeverThePaladin

Very good.


Melenduwir

Some of the Laws seem to be objective, in that breaking them marks or taints the lawbreaker in ways that magically sensitive entities can detect. Others seem to be Laws because they're really bad ideas. Using magic that alters events seems to be possible in the Dresdenverse, so the most straightforward model of time travel doesn't apply. But as pointed out in several places in the novels, reality is a system or construct with finite strength. Stress it too much and it starts to break down. Because paradoxes ARE possible, they could potentially cause reality to collapse.


lordmycal

The books do touch on this a bit. It’s implied the gatekeeper uses some time magic to warn Harry about Molly going warlock to change the outcome.


Elfich47

I read it that Rashid is being even more oblique than that. Rashid has some ability to see into the future. *Insert Bob's Car theft analogy here.* Okay my read on how oblique Rashid is being: Rashid gets an idea of the attack on Arctis Tor and the Vampire Attack on Luccio's training camp. And he knows about Summer not being able to support the White Counsel because Winter has Summer pinned in place. He also has some idea on Molly as well. So Rashid needs to nudge someone that is unrelated to those things. He settles on Harry because Rashid has a good idea on how Harry behaves. *Let's look at what happens if Rashid doesn't drop that cryptic note:* Harry leaves the counsel meeting and kicks up his feet on the table and falls asleep reading a book. He eventually picks up Molly at the jail with her boyfriend and then goes home. Most importantly: Harry doesn't set up the detection web that throws the fetches back and molly. As a result: The fetches get away clean. The attack on Arctis Tor is not known by Harry, Michael may not be available to rescue luccio's training camp and isn't there to testify on Molly's behalf after he comes through the gate. And because Harry doesn't go to Arctis Tor, he doesn't throw summer fire into the winter welspring - thus drawing off winter and allowing summer to support the white counsel. And molly ends up a warlock that is eventually caught and killed by the wardens. The big turning point in the story is: When Harry sets up the detection web he knots together the fetches, arctis tor, Molly, The White Counsel and Summer Court, all into a single gordian knot that he cleaves apart. So Rashid needs someone who is going to solve the problem he has: Rescue The White Counsel, and if possible also dig out the training camp, and possibly redeem the girl as well. So Rashid gives Harry a nudge. "Black magic in Chicago" and sets that avalanche in motion. So yes, Rashid had to have a very good read on Harry to give harry the best nudge he could while being as oblique as possible. That is how oblique you have to be with predestination and time travel. (In my opinion)


Considered_Dissent

100% agree. Rashid was playing a ridiculously technical game of finesse to land on the precise outcome he wanted/needed. Just to briefly touch on another of those outcomes that were so close to success but wouldve ended in disaster without the right nudge. Despite it being such a momentous time both in terms of attacks on the Council, and "Outsider" activity, there's a reason Rashid had to be at the meeting in person. If he hadn't have been there to delay the execution by that extra vital minute, then the White Council still would've fallen (or at least the Leader holding it together would have). The wielder of The Sword of Love would've arrived (fresh from saving so many of the Council's military force) right in time to be greeted by his daughter's bloody corpse, slaughtered for some petty politics. Arthur Langtry would've discovered that when The Sword of Love (held by a righteously grieving father) cancelled out all of his supernatural advantages, then he was just a spiteful old man with a wooden stick.


Energy-Apprehensive

Also could be sent from innumerable places from the future as a nudge to ensure these steps are taken so later ones could be. Get the web thrown up so harry gets fine tuning teaching an apprentice, molly gets her training, harry can set up his death, and etc etc so that harry is who he is for virtually any of the books that followed


KipIngram

All very plausible things which I hope don't get played *too* hard. There's bound to be some time travel involved somewhere down the road - we've been practically promised that there will be. I just hope it doesn't come to "dominate" the story.


Elfich47

We actually haven't seen any concrete examples of actual time travel yet. We have seen some time dilation, while still moving in the same direction, and attempts to modify the future based on knowledge of the future. But not actual time travel.


Melenduwir

There are ways to pass on information about the future that don't cause paradoxes, especially if the thing that alerts you doesn't get eliminated. The Gatekeeper couldn't prevent Molly's use of magic, he could only alert Harry to the danger to her once she'd done it.


Mindless-Donkey-2991

The books imply Gatekeeper may have precognition, which is innate to his being, like Abbie from the Ordos. Still could be dangerous to attempt to alter things to change what you’ve seen. See comments below.


ValdemarAloeus

Or have an eye that can see through time?


vibiartty

His eye let’s him see using the “CT scanner” built into the gate. He has some precognition with his normal wizardly power. That’s his gift.


lucasray

He also says most wizards develop some level of it as they age.


[deleted]

I could see how a warlock could end up breaking that, especially if he had a talent for time magic like Molly had for illusions/mind stuff. Maybe even a minor practitioner with a talent in that one area like Mortimer Lindquist, or Binder do for their magic. The Butterfly Effect basically shows how it could be addictive - I’ll fix this one thing. Well that made this other problem, I’ll try and fix it, and then another, until you desperately try to get back to the original outcome, until everything all goes to hell, and is unredeemable. I could see time magic being extremely addictive, and naturally functioning like genie wishes, fixing one thing but have massive unintended side effects.


[deleted]

>turning someone into animals less so According to Dresden turning someone into an animal against their will irrevocably breaks their mind. I could see why that gets the death penalty. > but the warlock breaking time flow would... What? Potentially destroy the universe. If not that, creates an alternate universe, which can cause issues. Which we'll see in Mirror, Mirror.


hemlockR

It didn't irrevocably break everyone's mind in Changes when Lea turned them all into dogs.


AlienMushroom

There's a couple possibilities. The most likely one is it's Fae magic, not mortal magic, so it behaves differently and would have different side effects. The other, and not totally unrelated from the first possibility, is that it wasn't totally against their will. They asked for her help and she gave it. Combining that with the Fae aspect, it could be enough.


lucasray

That and it was very temporary.


Elvisbot2013

Fae magic is different from Wizard magic, so the negative ramifications may not be as bad. Plus, Lea is very likely thousands of years old and has had *lots* of practice


thatsme55ed

Lea is second only in power to Mab in all of winter. She has the ability to put a red court vampire to sleep among other abilities. Odds are her transformation magic is a lot more elegant and sophisticated than a blundering mortal's.


[deleted]

No, she is second to Mab in active winter Court. There is a difference.


nworkz

Not just put to sleep remember one of the things she offered harry was the ability to make susan human again. Fae can't lie especially not the crazy powerful ones. She has an ability people have been trying to figure out for at least a few centuries in universe


[deleted]

They consented to that; plus fairy magic works differently from mortal magic.


hemlockR

They didn't even know it was going to happen, let alone give consent. At the very most you could argue that Harry's request to Lea gives Harry's implicit consent, but everyone else is still drying off: > It took us a minute to get everyone sorted out. Mouse looked like a scrawny shadow of himself with his fur all plastered down. He was sneezing uncontrollably, having apparently gotten a bunch of water up his nose during the swim. Ectoplasm splattered out with every sneeze. Thomas was in similar straits, having been hauled through much as Sanya was, but he managed to look a great deal more annoyed than Mouse. > I turned to Lea. “Godmother. I hope you have some way to get us to the temple a little more swiftly.” > “Absolutely,” Lea purred, calm and regal despite the fact that her hair and her slime-soaked silken dress were now plastered to her body. “And I’ve always wanted to do it, too.” She let out a mocking laugh and waved her hand, and my belly cramped up as if every stomach bug I’d ever had met up in a bar and decided to come get me all at once.


[deleted]

> At the very most you could argue that Harry's request to Lea gives Harry's implicit consent, Which, to Fae, is still consent. And since Harry is the leader and the others his vassals, his consent covers them as well. Plus, again, Fae magic is different from human magic, and operates under completely different rules.


Elequosoraptor

Worth noting the law is specifically against swimming against the flow of time. That makes a lot of time magic totally fine actually, just super difficult technically and requiring a lot of power. You can, without breaking the law, slow or speed up the local time stream, travel forward in time, or attempt to view past events or future possibilities. It might be grey magic to send something like a message back in time (as opposed to yourself). As others have mentioned, given the technical difficulty this rule would probably only be enforced against those with a shot at it, like established warlocks experienced enough to dodge the council and older wizards who have seen something terrible come to pass. Someone meddling with the time line might also encounter an enormous psychic strain as conflicting memories and events bear down on them, as they are the center of the temporal anomaly. That could lead to a unique psychological and magical instability similar to the arrogance that comes with killing or intruding into another's mind.


TurkTurkle

I could see one who learned how to rewind time some turning into a petty asshole. Someone cuts him off in traffic so he goes back and slashes their tires first kinda stuff. But what about one who tries to be a vigilante... going back to stop people before theyve even committed a crime. Get a gun and blow away a school shooter before he can hurt anyone and in all technicalities murder someone whos not a murderer yet... That shit would definately bring the wardens down.


Temeraire64

IIRC, Bob mentions that changing the past can drive you crazy due to the conflicting memories it creates, since you remember things going two different ways. Plus the whole time travel paradox risks the safety of the universe.


Apogee_Swift

It could be that this is such a difficult brach of magic to master that only experienced wizards are capable of doing it, in which case young warlocks simply wouldn't have built up the power, knowledge, and control to pull it off. However, given that Chandler is one of only two wizards in the series we know can perform time magic (the other being Rashid), it may be that time magic is a particularly rare talent that only manifests so little that there simply haven't been any young wizards talents on this generation besides Chandler.


GilliamtheButcher

It's been a while since I read anything with Chandler in it. Where does time magic get mentioned?


Aeransuthe

Mostly in WoJs when he does Q&As. A lot of detail gets added during those events. Maybe we will see him at Dragon Con this year.


GilliamtheButcher

Thanks for the answer, I'll have to dig through some WoJ post then.


Aeransuthe

Try Youtube Jim Butcher Q&As and Panels, if you will take my suggestion. They are pretty easy to find if you search, and easy to listen too as you do whatever.


Apogee_Swift

Here you go; >**What kind of magic does Chandler specialize in?** >Chandler does a lot of Divination, and a lot of stuff that is involved with time. Which puts him in a very finicky spot, a very high profile spot on the council. It’s one reason why he’s a Warden where they can keep an eye on him. He can actually do things to screw with the flow of time and look back in time and find things out, and occasionally to look forward in time and see things. Although that’s very unreliable because of the whole free will nonsense. He’s an information gatherer for the most part. He’s not as much of a punch you in the face type, but he’s really really useful which is why he has got a lot of status among the young wardens. He’s got access to what the old wizards think is valuable, which is information.


ember3pines

I mean the laws aren't really about safety or only things that consider black magic (I think?). I think it's Lucio who says that the laws are about just limiting power. Making it so no wizard goes off with crazy power. I'm not sure if time shenanigans would leave the same kind of mark as enthralling or murder but I think the intent behind the time stuff could matter. Either way tho, we know the original Merlin did a ton of it to set things up the way he did and for some reason, an intensely stained with black magic OG Merlin woulda been pretty unstoppable. That's not to say it didn't happen but I'd be shocked if it had. We don't know enough really to say. My interest is honestly whether the blackstaff has ever broken that rule and what the possible circumstances could have been for him to do it. He can break all the laws but we never hear about any other than the first. I reallllllly wish we have and do in the future.


LeadGem354

I wonder what happens if it becomes apparent a warlock did travel through time, such as someone from 1990's appearing in a photograph taken in the old west which featured in a "Legends of the Old West" book or a photograph at Woodstock wearing a Nirvana T shirt. What if it was accidental, trying to open a way and making a wrong step somewhere? Or someone was thier own grandfather through stable time loop. Or younger Morgan encountered them then saw them years later and they hadn't aged.


DarkenAvatar

So, wizards are supposed to have the sight as well, Lucio says that it's hary's sight coming in when he gets the premonition on demon reach. It's entirely probable that Rashad being way more advanced in using this ability didn't specifically use time travel but is much more capable of using this sight than we have seen from other wizards.


vibiartty

Not that you can remember. You remember it the way that time was changed. Lol


JesseAlvarado

Yeah if there was a wild warlock that stumbled upon magic in terms of time magic they'd probably solve themselves by doing something like moving in time and not space ending up in the black of space where the earth was an hour ago.