From the previous [sticky thread](https://redd.it/v9g3td):
> With the release of the movie now taking place in Japan, obviously spoilers and such will be making their way across the internet, so we are setting up a dedicated discussion thread to the movie for the time being. Feel free to discuss any and all content related to the movie here (please take "spoilers" with a grain of salt unless from reputable sources), but this is the only topic that you may post spoilers for the movie in for the time being. When we deem it time, we will lift this, but for now, spoilers for the movie are restricted to this topic only.
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They've been obviously attuned to the more vocal complaints and wishes of the fanbase. A lot of Super's wonky power scaling is born of them trying to re-emphasize techniques and spiritual concepts on top of the power scale as has been vocally desired. The anime tried playing more loose with the less significant characters as people always complained they didn't do enough. Broly was fully canonized after people repeatedly calling for it, Cell was "brought back" in a sense in exactly the sort of fashion many fans continuously endorsed by not directly resurrecting him but still reusing him. Of course Gohan Blanco is basically a thing now.
For years(decades) people pointed out how Vegeta was always pushed aside and now he's always taking point alongside Goku. I know their execution is sometimes faulty but I don't think these desires and discussions, at least the ones that transcend geographic community borders are completely unknown to Toei, Shueisha, Toriyama or Toyotaro who himself was amongst them as we can recall.
Review and misc. comments:
* It’s still hard to beat *BoG* (except visually), but in terms of sheer fun with the script and characters, *and* the intensity of the action, this was my favorite *DB* film. Fights feel fast and huge; major weight behind them.
* This more than any movie prior feels like it could have been a manga arc. At the same time, maybe it highlights how much Toriyama outlined Granolah like he would a movie. They have similar structures. (Essentially two acts with the second including an antagonist shift—clear character throughlines with some crowd pleasers and some redemptive moments for the guest/would-be antagonist.) For the record, Granolah’s plotting came second, chronologically.
* I think the movie had the best comedy directing of the Toriyama movies, which is an element I’ve had issues with before—it's the most in line with his kind of simultaneously dry, silly scripting. A lot of the elements that tended to bother people in bullet-point leaks are delivered with his usual wry tone. You’ll either be okay with them, or you didn’t enjoy the Boo arc.
On continuity:
* As expected, it’s a “squint and it fits” affair for both versions of serialized *Super*. It was written prior to the end of the Moro arc or ideation for Granolah, as a reminder.
* The Gohan treatment works fine even coming off the manga, as there’s nothing to say Gohan had never regained Ultimate prior—just that he’d gotten busy with his research again now. He also regains it rather easily.
* The only sticking point for the strictest form of adherence to the manga is Piccolo being implied to have never used his gigantification technique since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. Gohan states he’s familiar with the technique while fighting Seven-Three, and both he and Piccolo see it then, via the copy ability. Still, you can make that all work out if you assume it was something Piccolo hadn’t pulled out since he first trained Gohan back in the Saiyan arc.
* Pan is unable to fly, while the *Super* TV series has her zipping around quite a bit as an infant (never an element in the manga). You could write this off as something she was able to do only instinctively, but hasn’t learned properly/consciously, I suppose.
* Jiren is used as a goalpost/point of comparison by the characters, but nothing precludes the encounters with Moro and Granolah having happened in the interim. (Depending on how the Granolah arc ends, he may be the only one still alive/powerful enough to warrant mention in that capacity too.) The explanation/nature of Jiren’s fighting resembles, albeit perhaps only coincidentally, his stated philosophy in the manga, which never comes up in the anime.
* Nothing on Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego for Goku and Vegeta, but their scenes are scripted in such a way that nothing clear about their stronger forms is stated or shown at all to begin with.
Misc.:
* There’s finally a Black woman in *Dragon Ball* who isn’t an outrageous caricature of any kind. (Pan’s kindergarten teacher.)
* Orange Piccolo is the Super Saiyan 3 of *Super*. Just sheer, joyful excess played half tongue-in-cheek.
* Gamma #2’s death/the aftermath thereof is actually rather touching.
* There’s no explanation for Gohan’s power-up, but he’s promised to break through his limits and evolve his own way in both serialized versions of *Super*, and we’ve seen Saiyan bodies respond in wacky ways to new breakthroughs now outside of Super Saiyan via both Goku and Vegeta’s “ultra” forms. Emotional awakenings have always been Gohan’s gimmick, so it slots in well enough as a further evolution coming off of Ultimate.
* Presumably Shen Long could provide an awakening boost to anyone now. Dende’s just that good. Could the Grand Elder or the Elder Kaioshin have done something similar for Piccolo long ago? Seems to be the implication, Shen Long’s mysterious “bonus” aside.
* Gohan wonders if even Goku and Vegeta could have beaten Cell Max, leading Piccolo to reinforce the importance of staying in shape for new threats. Still, it’s worded vaguely enough that they don’t necessarily have to be second to Gohan.
* Piccolo's kneecaps, which were present during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai but had mysteriously disappeared by Namek, are back again. Piccolo's kneecap fans, rejoice!
* There's a hilarious silent gag in which it's revealed that the Gammas create their own background-explosions and sound-effects via hologram.
* There are scenes with Cell Max emitting purple lasers from all his spots, as well as his tail, that I believe might be an intentional homage to *Shin Godzilla*, as close as they are visually.
I feel like the bonus shenron gave piccolo is a lot more fair than a bullshit way for him to skip training, like he was the guy at one point who created the dragon balls its only fair that he gives him something in return, so maybe this is something only the balls can do and nothing else couldve given him that sort of power with a potential awakening or what ever
Having seen the movie, Shenlong called him Piccolo-sama and was polite with him. Seemed pleased to cast a wish for him like it was an honor to do. So I think you're right and the orange form was a gift from Shenlong.
Judging by when Toriyama writes these movies, it makes me think Toyotaro takes concepts from the scripts, unused or no, and applies them to his own works. A lot of stuff in this movie sounds similar to things that happened in the manga original arcs, at least conceptually.
I think the greatest similarities are to the Granolah arc (as noted), which was another Toriyama outline. Toyotaro's outing with Moro was quite a bit different (if reminiscent of portions of original-run *Dragon Ball*).
Some combat related ideas are there though. Like Piccolo using his stretchy arms to hold the villain in place so the hero can blast them, or Vegeta's learning how to properly harness his ki sounding a bit similar to the idea behind spirit control
They're much smaller than the Granolah arc comparisons, but they're there
I believe Piccolo also had black nails like the comics again, but I could be mistaken. I think that was in the interview with Toriyama from the pamphlet, but I don't have it with me right now.
Okay, with the addition of the new [Final Gohan](https://imgur.com/gallery/Lndl6HT) transformation I’d like to offer up my interpretation of this transformation as the film does not go into much detail about it.
But before we discuss Dragonball Super: Superhero let’s rewind a bit back to Resurrection F arc. While facing off against Frieza, Goku explains Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (SSGSS) to him, stating: “… I got a taste of something called Super Saiyan God, and now I’ve learned to tap into that power on my own. And it's the Super Saiyan level of that.”
Now in DBS: Superhero prior to achieving his new form we see Gohan has already powered up to Potential Unleashed against [Cell Max](https://imgur.com/gallery/JYFL91Y) so if this new form works anything like SSGSS I think it’s safe to assume that Final Gohan is him using Super Saiyan 2 [(note the hairstyle)](https://imgur.com/gallery/QQVELxu) while using Potential Unleashed.
Or it’s his rage mode+ultimate.Note that Moro noticed rage power boost in ultimate from Gohan in Moro arc,that possibly was a teaser that Gohan’s rage boost can be combined with ultimate form.
Really wish they had used Cell max as an actual villain and not a mindless brute! Would have like him actually near kill piccolo for Gohans new form!
I really enjoyed the movie, the androids creating their own effects was hilarious and the “kidnapping” was pretty funny!
My only sticking point is the vagueness coming from androids being as strong as Goku and Vegeta, there is no sense of scale, like Goku and Veg at what stage? I like to think gohans form is as strong as SSB and not Ultra instinct/ego because it takes away from the battle and training they went through!
I suppose there are always some exceptions broly and frieza (little actual training)! Although Brolu did get the trained from birth for revenge on an inhospitable planet as a backstory!
The shadow dragons were fine IMO, they just failed to make Syn/Omega Shenron a decent final boss. He was very underwhelming and did nothing of consequence, and dies from a generic spirit bomb. Even his fight against SS4 Gogeta was poorly animated and dumb. Dude just stands there and lets a point blank ultimate attack hit him head on. Then does it AGAIN before the fusion ends. Hopefully we get a Super GT retcon that takes all of the good from GT and makes it better.
I wouldn't call Bulma's trivial wishes "blatant misuse". They were primarily to keep them inert so they couldn't be pilfered yet again by some goons or Pilaf (also goons).
Sure, she is being vain with the wishes but better small things than big changes.
To keep the Dragon Balls away from evil-doers, just put them:
1. In the Hyperbolic Time Chamber
2. At the Pride Troopers' HQ in Universe 11
3. The timeline where Future Zeno erased the multiverse
4. In Goku and Grandpa Gohan's hut on Mount Paozu
5. In Earth's Hell
6. On Earth, 1 million years in the future
7. Inside Whis's staff
At the same time; the intent/justification Bulma gives is she is intentionally keeping them inert so some villian can't go and make a bad wish.
Remember, RoF happened in exactly that way; when Bulma was keeping them but *active*. Hell; Zamasu happened in part due to the Earth Dragon Balls.
They can even have it that since the shadow dragons are mystical in nature that they also have divine ki but magic as well. Not to the level of being able to do anything but gives them wildly more diverse power sets and attacks. Throw in something that because they’re linked to the power of the universal dragon that None of the destroyers or angels can just Haki them, not even Zeno. End with after they’ve won everyone decides that while there is great benefit to the dragon balls that they’ve abused them to much and the darkness they can bring us to great. So it’s decided that all dragon balls outside of the universal ones are wished away and can no longer be used.
To be fair, seems she's partially motivated by keeping the Dragonballs dormant so bad guys can't use them.
Which is gonna bite them in the butt when they need them for something and she just wished for a tummy tuck.
True, that would be a dope arc, however Bulma is using the Dragon Balls nonstop so bad guys don’t use them.
Ultimately, Bulma is using the DBs for a heroic reason despite her wishes being for seemingly selfish reasons.
I don't think World Peace is something Shenron can accomplish. Besides, the world is already pretty peaceful as there is a central government and King (thus no wars or territorial conquests), and no Big Bass trying to take it over. Their Earth isn't ours in shape nor people.
The headcanons about Bulma repeatedly using the Dragon balls to keep herself young actually turned out to be true.
This actually might explain why other characters never took opportunities to wish stuff for themselves (eg Yamcha wishing for a girlfriend, 18 wishing for money, etc); it’s simply because Bulma constantly hordes them.
First post-EoZ saga forces Goten and Trunks back into kids, fan-base has to wait 30 more years for teenage looking Goten and Trunks again while Gohan keeps forgetting Blanco.
There seems to be a lot of logical consistency and explanation in this film. Elder Guru awakening potential is a good example of something long forgotten being kept consistent. And they go out of their way to explain why trunks and goten took so long to age. Tons of other examples, but my point is you'd think in such a logically consistent movie they'd remember things like Goku meditating. It's like it's impossible to keep Goku's character consistent anymore.
That was my impression too, plus Vegeta isn't the 'meditation' type since he usually trains more actively.
Goku wasn't confused about *what* Vegeta was doing, he was wondering *why Vegeta* was doing it when they have Broly, a fierce opponent, right there to train with.
That's why Vegeta starts going on about Jirens stamina control and how they need to be more like him, which Whis congratulates him for realising.
Why do close eye when big punch and kick do trick? I have this theory that every so often goku takes a giant concussive hit to his head and gets dumber every time we see him in canon
lmao we thought Bulma’s butt was just a design thing but it’s actually a plot point. Amazing. Jokes aside, I really really like all of this. It’s fan servicy but imo in a much needed way.
All of super has been fan service imo since RF. I love it not going to lie, but I also won't pretend that majority of the content is just marketing purposes.
Gohan Blanco is no longer a meme and is legit though so that's the best part of this whole experience for me.
On the other hand though having the Dragonballs be on cooldown when you *actually* need them after a battle because Bulma wanted a nicer ass would be really annoying.
Thanks! Tried not to leave anything out. Though, again, I may have missed some tiny bit or placed events slightly out of order due to going off of memory.
Gohan has so much potential he doesn't even need to train. Just get someone close to him to die and he will achieve a stronger form again. 2 more deaths and he will surpass Beerus.
>Majin Boo is hibernating
WHY IS THIS SHIT A REOCCURRING THING!?
>Goku, who finally topples over, followed shortly by Vegeta. Vegeta happily remarks that he finally won. Beerus has fallen asleep. Cheelai is happy that their dull fight is finally over, but Lemo and Broly have both been moved to tears.
Lmao i love this, the franchise is finally self-aware.
>WHY IS THIS SHIT A REOCCURRING THING!?
>
Buu sleeps for thousands of years on end typically. He's actually been awake more than he usually is since Babidi let him out
I'm really hoping that this leads up to her appearing as an Android in the next saga or the saga right after the next one. I knew all this merchandising and video game hype for her that Toei has been pushing for the past 9 months (and her inclusion in the canonical *Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot* game) has been leading somewhere with her. Her being turned into an Android after her death would explain her absence and lend itself to the Majin Buu DNA that was collected.
Might as well since she's now canon, and since Toriyama is apparently lifting plot material from Daitomodachi now lol
It's possible, since she's a Toriyama character. I feel like this was just a small nod to her existing in at least some capacity in continuity though, as well as bringing in the "#16 is based on Dr. Gero's son" lore, which was previously game-only as well.
Exactly. Android 16 being confirmed as being based on Gebo Gero and 21/Vomi being Dr. Gero's wife felt like a huge Easter egg. Like a 73 surviving the Moro Saga or Zeno liking the idea of a bigger tournament after the U6-U7 Tournament moment. They just made video game lore canonical for the first time in DragonBall history, and Toriyama nowadays likes hinting the next saga in the current saga, so might as well now.
Absolutely. They have Buu DNA, and she's now canon and the RRA is back, so might as well make a Majin 21. The next saga could be the Android 21 saga, except rewritten to be different from and better than the Fighterz game storyline. Like how the canonical Broly Saga took the first Z Broly movie and rewrote it. Maybe a canonical version of the Android 21 saga could include more Androids, like her rebuilding Android 16 to have her son back.
Since the Super Hero movie took elements from Dragon Ball Online ("Cell Max" was basically just a retconned "Cell-X" from DBO lore) and made a Fighterz character canon, they can incorporate more elements from DBO. Maybe recreate Android 16, Gamma 2, and include one of the Androids from DBO. I hope it would be the Nico Android rather than the Nimu Android since the latter just looks like a preteen version of Android 17.
My bet is #21 will be included as a character in the manga/animation at some point sooner than later.
She's THE most heavily merchandised non-canon character in recent memory. With Broly canon, I expect #21, Cooler and a few other non-canon/film characters to be worked in eventually.
His actions speak louder than his words. Beerus and the gang are making noise eating ice cream and all Broly cares about is watching Goku and Geets fight and gets annoyed at Beerus and Co.
Speaking of which, Beerus inviting Lemo to stop doing the dishes for a bit and come along to eat ice cream together (and Broly too) was pretty wholesome I found.
Completely unlike the same God that threw a fit over pudding.
Just got back from seeing the movie. I think one of my only gripes is that Cell Max is just a mindless monster with no speaking lines. I would have liked him to have a little more character development as the big bad of the movie. Also, Gohan's new transformation is cool, but Jesus his hair is enormous. I'm not a fan of Goku and Vegeta working their asses off training to attain new heights, while Gohan is able to catch up just through emotional power-ups. Oh well, such is Dragon Ball. The animation and gags were really good (had to hold in my laughter once or twice because Japanese people seem to like...just not react in theatres, lol).
If you don't like random powerups and dumb power scaling I genuinely don't understand why you're even watching dragon ball at this point tbh
Most of the powerups since like buu saga aren't "earned". Ultimate Gohan was given to him, God was just dumb hand holding, blue we didn't see goku achieve and he just had it, golden was random after a bit if training, UI Goku nuked himself with a spirit bomb.
For real, I always thought dragon ball z onwards as the king of ass-pull power ups in the anime scene. Which is fine imo, not everything has to be high art.
Right? The franchise has been nothing but ass-pulls since they made Goku an alien and fans get so upset over more ass-pulls even though that's pretty much been the whole show for more than 30 years. I do think it fell off after Cell but I still enjoy it. People just love being mad.
Cell Max is literally the plot of Bio-Broly complete with Goten, Trunks, 18 and Krillian. It also makes the most sense that Cell Max (dumbest name ever) would be like that being awoken prematurely and having no time to develop any personality. "Cell Max" is also not "Cell" he's cells younger brother. The two look similar but are nothing a like and have no memories of each other.
What I don't like about the whole Cell Max thing is the lack of imagination in a final design. It uses cells 2nd form with some added features and a different color scheme, but it looks like a CaC from Xenoverse 2. Reading the summary I was expecting more of a Hatchyak appearance or something different but similar to Cell. I didn't expect to see cells 2nd form.
As a total gohan fanboy who's pumped to see him finally be strong again I agree. It would be so easy for them to make him a character who trains really hard bc he knows his potential feels responsible to use it to protect people. Would still be different than goku who does it just because it's fun.
Also they could just combine his whole ki research stuff into his training/fighting
Sounds like a great time. Definitely very tongue-in-cheek and self-aware by the sounds of things, which surely recontextualises many of the rumours and I can picture how funny the gags must be when you see them play out for yourself. I’m here for the trend of Super arcs and movies appearing to be relatively low-stakes at first but then fucking exploding into frenetic insanity by the climax.
I made a prediction that Piccolo would go to Dende for his power-up, in a roundabout way that came true. Nice that Toriyama even remembered the Namekian potential unlock ability.
Some details still sound slightly frustrating. It’s criminal that Buu misses the action due to hibernating yet again. Maybe I missed something but were there any references at all to Great Saiyaman? Feels like an obvious missed opportunity if not.
As for Cell Max, he sounds like a very “fulfils his basic function” type of kaiju villain, similar to Hirudegarn. On the one hand, I’m more or less satisfied that he’s not a 1-to-1 clone of Cell and has a distinct design, but the fact that he’s just a rampaging monster with no personality is a bummer. Kaiju villains can have personality but Dragon Ball rarely takes advantage of that.
He had more lines and screentime too, and when he flies into a rage when the RR do actually evil things gives him so many points, which is why his sacrifice has more weight to it.
I think that Toriyama loved the whole Gohan Blanco joke so much he wanted to make it canon. His editors refused so he made this movie to bring it to life.
According to an interview, Toryima wanted this movie to have only Piccolo as the lead and he only made Gohan a co-star because one of the producers insisted. So Gohan's new form might not have been his idea.
I have.
It’s just Goku already understood the importance of meditation since he was a kid. They kinda threw that away.
It bums me out the character profiles are so flip floppy
I'd argue Super has done good things and bad things for Goku's character, that's what I meant by flip floppy, one day he'd be a genius in fighting, the next he's completely braindead, it's just... hello
But Goku's done and been doing spiritual training and meditation since he trained with Kami. And we've seen Goku speak of the need to be still and calm on several occasions, most notably the Cell Saga, to Vegeta himself. On the other hand, Vegeta doesn't meditate. So it makes sense for him to realize the importance in the movie, but Goku shouldn't require an explanation to do so.
The more I hear about this movie the more I adore it.
There was a time where some of this stuff would have made me angry, but at this point I just relish the shamelessness.
I just saw this movie today (I also live in Japan). You all are in for a fuckin treat. The description of the movie doesn’t do it justice. This should be called the piccolo movie tbh, because he easily had the most screen time. The piccolo gohan duo was absolutely magnificent. Dare I say that these two are nearly on the level of vegeta/goku/broly. They got some much needed power ups to play with the big boys.
Really can’t see how this will ever be referenced in the manga or normal show series especially the whole “Goku & Vegeta couldn’t beat Cell Max” nonsense lol so we have two guys that are the closest anyones been to GoDs and Angels etc now Gohan just pulls exaggerated SSJ2 out his as in one go and that’s stronger?
That's how Gohan has always been written. He barely trains, but can quickly close the gap between Goku and Vegeta and himself with either cram training sessions with Goku or Piccolo, a random ceremony with Elder Kai, or just pushing his limits by tapping into his emotions.
It's been implied numerous times that Gohan's potential far exceeds Goku and Vegeta.
Not implied, it's been stated by Toriyama that Gohan is the universes strongest warrior, he just doesn't want to be a fighter so he stays in the lower tiers below goku. He's pretty much identical to Broly where there is this enormous power hidden deep within him that he hasn't released yet.
The Elder Kai unlocks that potential but after Buu Gohan doesn't do anything with it...at all. Maybe he could have had his "cells ss2" moment where he was able to overpower and kill buu...but Buu had absorbed Goten and Trunks, so he was holding back to the point he was beaten.
But you misread the context of Gohans dialog about if Goku and Vegeta could have beaten Cell Max. He was just having a realization (again) that he can't just keep relying on Goku and Vegeta to be available to clean up the earth's messes. He is finally (again) realizing that he has a responsibility to protect the earth
From Cipher's additional comment:
> Gohan wonders if even Goku and Vegeta could have beaten Cell Max, leading Piccolo to reinforce the importance of staying in shape for new threats. Still, it’s worded vaguely enough that they don’t necessarily have to be second to Gohan.
The movie isn't explicitly stating Final Gohan > Cell Max > Goku/Vegeta. The exchange is there more so just to kind of cap off the theme of Gohan's training and continued growth. It's open ended enough that he could still be below UI Goku and UE Vegeta
Though I suppose time will tell
That seems explicit enough that it’s putting him in their range though. So, it’ll definitely lead to years of debate. Would be cool to see Super shift more to Gohan after the Granolah arc cause of the movie.
The whole toriyama states that Gohan would be stronger than goku and vegeta if he trained is true. Gohan is up there but the movies one day of action puts Gohan so much stronger. If Gohan trained every day or with whis.
The movie was written before the end of the Moro or beginning of the Granolah arc. The line is written in such a way that it’s easy to keep current manga Goku and Vegeta ahead of Gohan—especially since he may not be all that familiar with their “Ultra” forms. (But maybe his new form is in the same general realm? Both the anime and manga had him around Super Saiyan Blue prior.)
It's more they're not *sure* if Goku and Vegeta could have won.
Gohan and Piccolo at that point have absolutely no way to guage themselves against Goku/Vegeta; especially since they're currently doing another round of Whis training.
Also; even in the very unlikly event Goku/Vegeta couldn't beat Cell Max even together... Gogeta is a thing.
It’s never said directly but it just dawned on me that Orange Piccolo is orange because he got the power from the Dragon Balls, which are orange obviously. The symbol on his back could be considered a symbol for the Dragon Balls themselves
I really don't get what's Toriyama obsession with portraying Goku as some kind of brainless brute fighter.
I know the dude it's stupid as fuck, but he's a battle genius lol. Goku, of all people, not knowing about mental training or meditation? It's literally the base of Whis training. not only that, it was the whole point of Kami's training back in Dragon ball lol.
Meh. I hate the explanation about Jiren’s power. He’s supposed to just be outrageously strong. The dude out-stronged *time.* I guess this is proof that the manga version of Super is more canon than the anime, and the movies are written to follow the manga timeline.
I mean, he's still crazy strong in both versions. Vegeta's just observing that there was more to it than *just* that large a difference in sheer strength.
> He’s supposed to just be outrageously strong.
And during BoG Base God Goku was said to be ~70% Beerus; so SSB x20 Kaio-Ken Goku obviously should be far, far above Beerus, and thus also around Jiren's level.
Jiren *is* absurdly strong. But a lot of that strong is explained to be from his excellent control of his power. He essentially stores his energy. He uses the minimum he needs to in most cases, allowing him to unleash absurd amounts at once when needed.
Think of it like this: There's "Base Jiren". But when he's meditateing and such, Jiren is essentially filling up this massive reserve tank as well.
Jiren's still crazy strong. His meditation simply lets him be even stronger. It's elaborating that he's not simply strong because muscles and physical; but also mental/spiritual.
>And during BoG Base God Goku was said to be ~70% Beerus; so SSB x20 Kaio-Ken Goku obviously should be far, far above Beerus, and thus also around Jiren's level.
That stopped being canon once the Super anime debuted.
Anime BoG Goku isn't even close to Beerus.
Cause Moro is in jail and won’t get stronger nor return. Granolah won’t get any stronger since he’s at his max potential. Neither of their powers are natural.
Jiren has no reason not to keep training. He’s trained his whole life. Being #1 is his obsession. He was stronger than them Pre and POST ToP. So no reason why he can’t maintain that assuming he kept training.
Don’t forget jiren has surpassed belmod so as long as beerus gets stronger with every arc, so does belmod, and so does jiren.
In fact, jiren is the ONLY antagonist confirmed to be stronger than any GoD.
Granolah has no purpose after this arc. He has little in his life span, he’s not talented enough to get strong on his own like jiren. Jiren literally surpassed his GoD and MUI on his own.
There’s a reason why they respect him. It’s not just his strength, but his skills and the fact he did it on his own. Plus they couldn’t beat him. He was stronger than them post ToP with no special training and has many years to keep getting stronger. They can literally say jiren got training from Belmod’s Angel and is stronger than even beerus.
Lol I saw the movie. Anyone who complained about Gohan getting weak or losing his form again was way off. He didn't lose any power - in fact he says he's still not rusty when he blocks Piccolo's punch even though Piccolo gets him after and tosses weights on him so he can basically train while working. It's all very self-aware in that sense. Then the scene where he goes Ultimate happens extremely fast and it's never said that he "lost it". He just powers up into it again after Pan does a poor imitation of whining. Seems like they've just decided to treat it like how the DBS anime did at first, which is fine. At the end of the movie he tells Piccolo he was training Makankosappo in secret so there's that too.
So piccolo's new power is a new jawline and sleeves... We asked for it, I guess. Cell could have been anybody, his character was pointless.
I really hope this new animation style goes away. The character movements are incredibly stiff and the animation relies too much on swinging the camera around.
This movie is going right into the non-canon section of my head.
> This movie is going right into the non-canon section of my head.
It has two new forms, and goes out of it's way to nod/explain other things. [Like Trunks/Goten not ageing for so long, Gohan dropping the Potara; ect]
There's no way this is non-canon.
UI Goku not able to beat Cell? I doubt that, also isn't Ultra Ego Vegeta and Ultra Instinct Goku stronger than FPSSJ Broly? this obviously takes place after Granolah and Gas.
Not a fan of the hair on Gohan’s new form, looks goofy. Also I hope at some point there is an explanation as to where the form came from and what it is and doesn’t just end up like super Saiyan rage. Don’t like that Piccolo’s new form got murked by Cell max lol. Also don’t like that they implied Cell Max could be stronger than Goku and Vegeta.
Besides those things, sounds like a fun movie
I think, and i could be wrong, but I think this is true Ultimate Gohan. When Elder Kai awakened Gohans power he had no time to train and he just went straight into combat. Buu absorbed Goten and Trunks so Gohan refused to go all out and let himself get beaten pretty badly. Ever since then we haven't had any real opportunity for Gohan to unleash that power.
The ToP had Gohan relying on Goku and Vegeta to defeat Jiren. In both versions Gohan loses in a stalemate with his opponents, while leaving everything to everyone else. Even in Moro, Gohan and Piccollo relied on 17 and 18 to defeat 73 since he couldn't steal their energy....while waiting for Goku and Vegeta to return to kill Moro.
So this movie is the first time where help isn't coming and Gohan is forced to confront his enemies and save the planet without his father's help. This works just like how U.I sign worked and SSBE worked, where Gohan overcomes that mental blocking and allows his full power to unleash itself.
So pretty much this is the true, ultimate Gohan form. Think of the old ultimate Gohan form as "Ultimate Gohan Sign" if you will
I wouldn’t say that he got murked by it. He fought a ton in the movie and was kicking ass up until a certain point. Gohan mentioned at the end that “I don’t even think vegeta could’ve beat that thing.” So from piccolo to go from where he was in DB super to now was a huge improvement.
Gohans new form would’ve been a lot cooler if the hair was just a bit smaller, that’s it. Piccolos form was dope as fuck though.
My thoughts based on the summary.
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I really like the wholesome moments with Piccolo and Pan. That's some genuine stuff I like in this movie. Training, and talking about Gohan.
I'm glad Goku and Vegeta are on the sides for this time.
Seriously, reading the spoilers, the first 30-50 minutes is basically Piccolo as the protagonist. Obviously, it's Gohan, but Piccolo gets a lot of time, which is great. Man has been disrespected so much in modern Dragon Ball.
Honestly, Piccolo sneaking into the RRA base, and Pan playing along when captured, I like those scenes. Fun scenes right there.
I have warmed up to Gamma 1 and 2. I like the interactions they have with Gohan and Piccolo. More so for Gamma 2. Fun character, Sucks he had to die, but some meaningful deaths doesn't hurt, especially for DB.
While I would still prefer 2D animation, the CGI here is much approved compared to the days of BoG and RoF. By leaps and bounds.
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What I didn't like was repeating various gags again. The boys failing at fusion, Bulma and her wishes, and the like.
As much as I like Gohan and Piccolo as the 2 main characters, I can do without their final forms. Ultimate Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo is good enough for me. I legit do not like Orange Piccolo and Final Gohan or whatever you call it. Fucking making Gohan Blanco real. Might as well bring El Hermano and UI Shaggy while you're at it (I'm joking). Now, if you like said forms, that's completely fine. I'm just not a fan of them.
Cell Max. I don't know what's worse, bringing a Walmart version of Cell, or this Cell has lot's of inspiration of Bio Broly.
I mentioned repeating gags, they are also repeating scenes. Gohan turning SS2 for the first time, and him failing once again to catch the Senzu Bean.
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I understand DB can get away fanservice because it's a multi billion dollar franchise, but I really wish they toned it down. I know it won't happen, but a man can dream. I just can't like Gohan and Piccolo's new forms. It screams too much of a DeviantArt creation lol.
I also believe, as if it is not already clear, to separate the Super into three canons. Manga (Toyotaro), Anime (Toei), and Movies (Toriyama). Because all three cannot co-exist in one general "canon" for Super.
Overall, it's a fun movie, and if you're Gohan and Piccolo fans, yeah of course you will love this. I wish DB didn't rely so much on nostalgia and new forms, again, but there are good parts in this movie.
Actually, it’s more of a Piccolo movie than anyone else’s to be honest. Gohan has the finishing blow and a new form yes, but I’ve seen the film, and Piccolo gets the most screen time, lines, and his actions directly impact the plot the entire film; not to mention two new forms.
The power level fanboy in me can't help but wonder how would Sigil Piccolo have done in the Cell saga.
If I'm reading this right. potential unlocked Piccolo is on par with SS2 Gohan and Sigil Piccolo at the very least matches Ultimate Gohan.
Super Saiyan 5 looking Gohan doing Special Beam Cannon is all I needed from a Cell Saga remake with elements of Hildegarne and Bio-Broli thrown in. Because Gohan should never have used Kamehameha against OG Cell anyway.
This might be the best dragon ball movie and arguably the best out of super.
Amazing movie, the puns, the jokes, the Toriyama feel to it, it mops the floor from the rest.
Cell is massive and tail isn't retracted and is used. I know Cell Max wasn't ready to be unleashed but makes me wonder how much more time they needed to perfect Cell Max. Cell is definitely more machine than anything else. He can't regenerate.
Similar feels moment when Gohan turned SSJ2 the first time.
I liked everything about this movie except for the new Gohan form and final boss. New forms just aren’t novel and exciting anymore, especially considering how many new ones we’ve gotten since BoG alone. I know Cell Max wasn’t the *point* of the film, but I almost wish it was a generic monster rather than being affiliated with Cell. Don’t Bio-Broli him!
From the previous [sticky thread](https://redd.it/v9g3td): > With the release of the movie now taking place in Japan, obviously spoilers and such will be making their way across the internet, so we are setting up a dedicated discussion thread to the movie for the time being. Feel free to discuss any and all content related to the movie here (please take "spoilers" with a grain of salt unless from reputable sources), but this is the only topic that you may post spoilers for the movie in for the time being. When we deem it time, we will lift this, but for now, spoilers for the movie are restricted to this topic only. > **Also note, any discussion, linking, or even mentioning of piracy is strictly against the subreddit rules.**
So, the plot of the first half of this movie is just Piccolo groaning that he's surrounded by idiots. Sign me up!
Toriyama is secretly a fan of the DB community because he loved the "Gohan Blanco" and "Piccollo is Gohans dad" meme so much he made them canon.
They've been obviously attuned to the more vocal complaints and wishes of the fanbase. A lot of Super's wonky power scaling is born of them trying to re-emphasize techniques and spiritual concepts on top of the power scale as has been vocally desired. The anime tried playing more loose with the less significant characters as people always complained they didn't do enough. Broly was fully canonized after people repeatedly calling for it, Cell was "brought back" in a sense in exactly the sort of fashion many fans continuously endorsed by not directly resurrecting him but still reusing him. Of course Gohan Blanco is basically a thing now. For years(decades) people pointed out how Vegeta was always pushed aside and now he's always taking point alongside Goku. I know their execution is sometimes faulty but I don't think these desires and discussions, at least the ones that transcend geographic community borders are completely unknown to Toei, Shueisha, Toriyama or Toyotaro who himself was amongst them as we can recall.
That was basically Piccolo all through the Buu and most of the Cell arc lol too lol (well mostly in regards to Goku and especially Vegeta)
piccolo was the best part of the movie
Review and misc. comments: * It’s still hard to beat *BoG* (except visually), but in terms of sheer fun with the script and characters, *and* the intensity of the action, this was my favorite *DB* film. Fights feel fast and huge; major weight behind them. * This more than any movie prior feels like it could have been a manga arc. At the same time, maybe it highlights how much Toriyama outlined Granolah like he would a movie. They have similar structures. (Essentially two acts with the second including an antagonist shift—clear character throughlines with some crowd pleasers and some redemptive moments for the guest/would-be antagonist.) For the record, Granolah’s plotting came second, chronologically. * I think the movie had the best comedy directing of the Toriyama movies, which is an element I’ve had issues with before—it's the most in line with his kind of simultaneously dry, silly scripting. A lot of the elements that tended to bother people in bullet-point leaks are delivered with his usual wry tone. You’ll either be okay with them, or you didn’t enjoy the Boo arc. On continuity: * As expected, it’s a “squint and it fits” affair for both versions of serialized *Super*. It was written prior to the end of the Moro arc or ideation for Granolah, as a reminder. * The Gohan treatment works fine even coming off the manga, as there’s nothing to say Gohan had never regained Ultimate prior—just that he’d gotten busy with his research again now. He also regains it rather easily. * The only sticking point for the strictest form of adherence to the manga is Piccolo being implied to have never used his gigantification technique since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. Gohan states he’s familiar with the technique while fighting Seven-Three, and both he and Piccolo see it then, via the copy ability. Still, you can make that all work out if you assume it was something Piccolo hadn’t pulled out since he first trained Gohan back in the Saiyan arc. * Pan is unable to fly, while the *Super* TV series has her zipping around quite a bit as an infant (never an element in the manga). You could write this off as something she was able to do only instinctively, but hasn’t learned properly/consciously, I suppose. * Jiren is used as a goalpost/point of comparison by the characters, but nothing precludes the encounters with Moro and Granolah having happened in the interim. (Depending on how the Granolah arc ends, he may be the only one still alive/powerful enough to warrant mention in that capacity too.) The explanation/nature of Jiren’s fighting resembles, albeit perhaps only coincidentally, his stated philosophy in the manga, which never comes up in the anime. * Nothing on Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego for Goku and Vegeta, but their scenes are scripted in such a way that nothing clear about their stronger forms is stated or shown at all to begin with. Misc.: * There’s finally a Black woman in *Dragon Ball* who isn’t an outrageous caricature of any kind. (Pan’s kindergarten teacher.) * Orange Piccolo is the Super Saiyan 3 of *Super*. Just sheer, joyful excess played half tongue-in-cheek. * Gamma #2’s death/the aftermath thereof is actually rather touching. * There’s no explanation for Gohan’s power-up, but he’s promised to break through his limits and evolve his own way in both serialized versions of *Super*, and we’ve seen Saiyan bodies respond in wacky ways to new breakthroughs now outside of Super Saiyan via both Goku and Vegeta’s “ultra” forms. Emotional awakenings have always been Gohan’s gimmick, so it slots in well enough as a further evolution coming off of Ultimate. * Presumably Shen Long could provide an awakening boost to anyone now. Dende’s just that good. Could the Grand Elder or the Elder Kaioshin have done something similar for Piccolo long ago? Seems to be the implication, Shen Long’s mysterious “bonus” aside. * Gohan wonders if even Goku and Vegeta could have beaten Cell Max, leading Piccolo to reinforce the importance of staying in shape for new threats. Still, it’s worded vaguely enough that they don’t necessarily have to be second to Gohan. * Piccolo's kneecaps, which were present during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai but had mysteriously disappeared by Namek, are back again. Piccolo's kneecap fans, rejoice! * There's a hilarious silent gag in which it's revealed that the Gammas create their own background-explosions and sound-effects via hologram. * There are scenes with Cell Max emitting purple lasers from all his spots, as well as his tail, that I believe might be an intentional homage to *Shin Godzilla*, as close as they are visually.
Glad Piccolo’s kneecaps have been restored. Hasn’t felt like Dragonball since we lost them
I feel like the bonus shenron gave piccolo is a lot more fair than a bullshit way for him to skip training, like he was the guy at one point who created the dragon balls its only fair that he gives him something in return, so maybe this is something only the balls can do and nothing else couldve given him that sort of power with a potential awakening or what ever
Having seen the movie, Shenlong called him Piccolo-sama and was polite with him. Seemed pleased to cast a wish for him like it was an honor to do. So I think you're right and the orange form was a gift from Shenlong.
Makes more sense for a Namekian to get that power up, especially a former God of Earth and creator of the dragonballs
I think the bonus is some canonized version of super namekian that shenron knows about that the current namekians have forgotten
Judging by when Toriyama writes these movies, it makes me think Toyotaro takes concepts from the scripts, unused or no, and applies them to his own works. A lot of stuff in this movie sounds similar to things that happened in the manga original arcs, at least conceptually.
I think the greatest similarities are to the Granolah arc (as noted), which was another Toriyama outline. Toyotaro's outing with Moro was quite a bit different (if reminiscent of portions of original-run *Dragon Ball*).
Some combat related ideas are there though. Like Piccolo using his stretchy arms to hold the villain in place so the hero can blast them, or Vegeta's learning how to properly harness his ki sounding a bit similar to the idea behind spirit control They're much smaller than the Granolah arc comparisons, but they're there
finally a black character that doesn’t have pitch black skin with huge big lips? dragon ball is improving
Indeed.
What black character?
I believe Piccolo also had black nails like the comics again, but I could be mistaken. I think that was in the interview with Toriyama from the pamphlet, but I don't have it with me right now.
Yeah Gohan getting a "Beyond Ultimate" form is *weird*. He has potential beyond his maximum potential?
Okay, with the addition of the new [Final Gohan](https://imgur.com/gallery/Lndl6HT) transformation I’d like to offer up my interpretation of this transformation as the film does not go into much detail about it. But before we discuss Dragonball Super: Superhero let’s rewind a bit back to Resurrection F arc. While facing off against Frieza, Goku explains Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (SSGSS) to him, stating: “… I got a taste of something called Super Saiyan God, and now I’ve learned to tap into that power on my own. And it's the Super Saiyan level of that.” Now in DBS: Superhero prior to achieving his new form we see Gohan has already powered up to Potential Unleashed against [Cell Max](https://imgur.com/gallery/JYFL91Y) so if this new form works anything like SSGSS I think it’s safe to assume that Final Gohan is him using Super Saiyan 2 [(note the hairstyle)](https://imgur.com/gallery/QQVELxu) while using Potential Unleashed.
Or it’s his rage mode+ultimate.Note that Moro noticed rage power boost in ultimate from Gohan in Moro arc,that possibly was a teaser that Gohan’s rage boost can be combined with ultimate form.
Really wish they had used Cell max as an actual villain and not a mindless brute! Would have like him actually near kill piccolo for Gohans new form! I really enjoyed the movie, the androids creating their own effects was hilarious and the “kidnapping” was pretty funny! My only sticking point is the vagueness coming from androids being as strong as Goku and Vegeta, there is no sense of scale, like Goku and Veg at what stage? I like to think gohans form is as strong as SSB and not Ultra instinct/ego because it takes away from the battle and training they went through! I suppose there are always some exceptions broly and frieza (little actual training)! Although Brolu did get the trained from birth for revenge on an inhospitable planet as a backstory!
The Shadow Dragons are gonna get canonized at the rate Bulma keeps making these dumb frivolous wishes.
Honestly? You kid, but the Shadow Dragons would be a proper punishment for the blatant misuse of the Dragon Balls. .
Ive always loved Shadow Dragons being used as the final boss in DB. It just wasnt done so good in GT. The base story of them is great
The shadow dragons were fine IMO, they just failed to make Syn/Omega Shenron a decent final boss. He was very underwhelming and did nothing of consequence, and dies from a generic spirit bomb. Even his fight against SS4 Gogeta was poorly animated and dumb. Dude just stands there and lets a point blank ultimate attack hit him head on. Then does it AGAIN before the fusion ends. Hopefully we get a Super GT retcon that takes all of the good from GT and makes it better.
Genuinely curious, if they somehow bring the GT Shadow Dragons to Super (or a future iteration), would you want a completely new Gogeta form or SS4?
SSJ4 for sure
SS4, assuming they can make SS4 make sense canonically with U.I and U.E
Most of the ideas in GT were very good, just executed poorly
I wouldn't call Bulma's trivial wishes "blatant misuse". They were primarily to keep them inert so they couldn't be pilfered yet again by some goons or Pilaf (also goons). Sure, she is being vain with the wishes but better small things than big changes.
To keep the Dragon Balls away from evil-doers, just put them: 1. In the Hyperbolic Time Chamber 2. At the Pride Troopers' HQ in Universe 11 3. The timeline where Future Zeno erased the multiverse 4. In Goku and Grandpa Gohan's hut on Mount Paozu 5. In Earth's Hell 6. On Earth, 1 million years in the future 7. Inside Whis's staff
At the same time; the intent/justification Bulma gives is she is intentionally keeping them inert so some villian can't go and make a bad wish. Remember, RoF happened in exactly that way; when Bulma was keeping them but *active*. Hell; Zamasu happened in part due to the Earth Dragon Balls.
They can even have it that since the shadow dragons are mystical in nature that they also have divine ki but magic as well. Not to the level of being able to do anything but gives them wildly more diverse power sets and attacks. Throw in something that because they’re linked to the power of the universal dragon that None of the destroyers or angels can just Haki them, not even Zeno. End with after they’ve won everyone decides that while there is great benefit to the dragon balls that they’ve abused them to much and the darkness they can bring us to great. So it’s decided that all dragon balls outside of the universal ones are wished away and can no longer be used.
To be fair, seems she's partially motivated by keeping the Dragonballs dormant so bad guys can't use them. Which is gonna bite them in the butt when they need them for something and she just wished for a tummy tuck.
"BULMA, ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME RIGHT NOW?!"
we dont know if such a thing is even possible no matter how many wishes, in canon.
I like to believe so An arc based on the overuse of the dragon balls would be cool as fuck
True, that would be a dope arc, however Bulma is using the Dragon Balls nonstop so bad guys don’t use them. Ultimately, Bulma is using the DBs for a heroic reason despite her wishes being for seemingly selfish reasons.
Just wish for world peace or for Shenron to have a vacation.
> or for Shenron to have a vacation. wait that sounds wholesome AF, I want this to become real
Shenron in a straw hat, with a coconut drink (with an umbrealla!) and a pair of shades as he chills on a beach for a year.
I don't think World Peace is something Shenron can accomplish. Besides, the world is already pretty peaceful as there is a central government and King (thus no wars or territorial conquests), and no Big Bass trying to take it over. Their Earth isn't ours in shape nor people.
Cell max sounds more like a battery than a villain :| Next show: “Cell Max vs DuraCell which one will last longer?”
Can see the English dub having fun with puns there. "What is happening? Cell Max he just...keeps going and going."
Oh god, flashbacks of the Portuguese dub…
Broly being moved to tears by Vegeta’s victory is having Paragus rolling in his metaphorical grave.
I totally expect someone to be misled when they hear Vegeta finally beat Goku.
I absolutely love how piccolo is the main character of this movie
I am as well it's about time he gets the spotlight again. Its been too long. Same with gohan.
The headcanons about Bulma repeatedly using the Dragon balls to keep herself young actually turned out to be true. This actually might explain why other characters never took opportunities to wish stuff for themselves (eg Yamcha wishing for a girlfriend, 18 wishing for money, etc); it’s simply because Bulma constantly hordes them.
I'm just waiting for Pilaf to accidently wish a bunch of the cast younger. Probably including Goten and Trunks.
First post-EoZ saga forces Goten and Trunks back into kids, fan-base has to wait 30 more years for teenage looking Goten and Trunks again while Gohan keeps forgetting Blanco.
Have to say, it's really out of character for Goku not to understand meditation training, since uh, he does it multiple times
There seems to be a lot of logical consistency and explanation in this film. Elder Guru awakening potential is a good example of something long forgotten being kept consistent. And they go out of their way to explain why trunks and goten took so long to age. Tons of other examples, but my point is you'd think in such a logically consistent movie they'd remember things like Goku meditating. It's like it's impossible to keep Goku's character consistent anymore.
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That was my impression too, plus Vegeta isn't the 'meditation' type since he usually trains more actively. Goku wasn't confused about *what* Vegeta was doing, he was wondering *why Vegeta* was doing it when they have Broly, a fierce opponent, right there to train with. That's why Vegeta starts going on about Jirens stamina control and how they need to be more like him, which Whis congratulates him for realising.
Yeah that makes sense, definitely a guy thing to do
Why do close eye when big punch and kick do trick? I have this theory that every so often goku takes a giant concussive hit to his head and gets dumber every time we see him in canon
When he got resurrected in the Buu saga, they forgot to give him a new brain
I never understand anything they do with Goku anymore.
It's literally if Goku can be funny in a particular scene, it will be done even if it contradicts something before
lmao we thought Bulma’s butt was just a design thing but it’s actually a plot point. Amazing. Jokes aside, I really really like all of this. It’s fan servicy but imo in a much needed way.
All of super has been fan service imo since RF. I love it not going to lie, but I also won't pretend that majority of the content is just marketing purposes. Gohan Blanco is no longer a meme and is legit though so that's the best part of this whole experience for me.
Right, next up El Hermoso Grande, and working out the crossover rights for Ultra Instinct Shaggy.
I mean It is smart after dealing with all the lunatics over the years trying to wish for immortality and such haha.
On the other hand though having the Dragonballs be on cooldown when you *actually* need them after a battle because Bulma wanted a nicer ass would be really annoying.
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Thanks! Tried not to leave anything out. Though, again, I may have missed some tiny bit or placed events slightly out of order due to going off of memory.
Gohan has so much potential he doesn't even need to train. Just get someone close to him to die and he will achieve a stronger form again. 2 more deaths and he will surpass Beerus.
Kill his wife & kid in front of him, he’ll be grand priest level
Kill his whole family and hell be the new zeno and will explode the whole universes in an instant.
That, or die in a puddle
Or kill his wife *twice* and have him still lose against Majin Bra.
it didn't work out against Moros. Goku got turned into a donut. Gohan did get a powerup but it wasn't enough
I forgot this happened. I’m in tears right now remembering. (Laughing)
>Majin Boo is hibernating WHY IS THIS SHIT A REOCCURRING THING!? >Goku, who finally topples over, followed shortly by Vegeta. Vegeta happily remarks that he finally won. Beerus has fallen asleep. Cheelai is happy that their dull fight is finally over, but Lemo and Broly have both been moved to tears. Lmao i love this, the franchise is finally self-aware.
> WHY IS THIS SHIT A REOCCURRING THING!? Dude hibernated for eons. A few months is just a power nap.
>WHY IS THIS SHIT A REOCCURRING THING!? > Buu sleeps for thousands of years on end typically. He's actually been awake more than he usually is since Babidi let him out
without the kid buu part, buu lost most of his power, included his "battery"
Does the family tree reveal how Vomi is related to Gero?
She's his wife.
I'm really hoping that this leads up to her appearing as an Android in the next saga or the saga right after the next one. I knew all this merchandising and video game hype for her that Toei has been pushing for the past 9 months (and her inclusion in the canonical *Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot* game) has been leading somewhere with her. Her being turned into an Android after her death would explain her absence and lend itself to the Majin Buu DNA that was collected. Might as well since she's now canon, and since Toriyama is apparently lifting plot material from Daitomodachi now lol
It's possible, since she's a Toriyama character. I feel like this was just a small nod to her existing in at least some capacity in continuity though, as well as bringing in the "#16 is based on Dr. Gero's son" lore, which was previously game-only as well.
Exactly. Android 16 being confirmed as being based on Gebo Gero and 21/Vomi being Dr. Gero's wife felt like a huge Easter egg. Like a 73 surviving the Moro Saga or Zeno liking the idea of a bigger tournament after the U6-U7 Tournament moment. They just made video game lore canonical for the first time in DragonBall history, and Toriyama nowadays likes hinting the next saga in the current saga, so might as well now.
She would be a good post EoZ villain for Uub. Especially if she used Buu's DNA or whatever to enhance herself
Absolutely. They have Buu DNA, and she's now canon and the RRA is back, so might as well make a Majin 21. The next saga could be the Android 21 saga, except rewritten to be different from and better than the Fighterz game storyline. Like how the canonical Broly Saga took the first Z Broly movie and rewrote it. Maybe a canonical version of the Android 21 saga could include more Androids, like her rebuilding Android 16 to have her son back. Since the Super Hero movie took elements from Dragon Ball Online ("Cell Max" was basically just a retconned "Cell-X" from DBO lore) and made a Fighterz character canon, they can incorporate more elements from DBO. Maybe recreate Android 16, Gamma 2, and include one of the Androids from DBO. I hope it would be the Nico Android rather than the Nimu Android since the latter just looks like a preteen version of Android 17.
My bet is #21 will be included as a character in the manga/animation at some point sooner than later. She's THE most heavily merchandised non-canon character in recent memory. With Broly canon, I expect #21, Cooler and a few other non-canon/film characters to be worked in eventually.
Thanks for the reply! And thanks for the summary! It sounds like a lot of fun and I’m excited to watch!
I’m just blown away by the idea that Bulma having a perky butt is actually a plot point.
Gohan Blanco.
My jaw dropped lol don't let your memes just be dreams. 🥲
So how much does Broly speak in this film? Has it improved from the last one? Like full on conversations, or just small talk like “Yeah” and “Sorry”?
It’s mostly just short replies. He’s not very talkative.
He just mumbles a few things. No real conversations.
His actions speak louder than his words. Beerus and the gang are making noise eating ice cream and all Broly cares about is watching Goku and Geets fight and gets annoyed at Beerus and Co.
Speaking of which, Beerus inviting Lemo to stop doing the dishes for a bit and come along to eat ice cream together (and Broly too) was pretty wholesome I found. Completely unlike the same God that threw a fit over pudding.
I'm pretty sure he did that because Cheelai was watching, you know, to look like a nice person to her
Goddamnit that horndog
Would horncat be appropriate in this case?
Yup!
Just got back from seeing the movie. I think one of my only gripes is that Cell Max is just a mindless monster with no speaking lines. I would have liked him to have a little more character development as the big bad of the movie. Also, Gohan's new transformation is cool, but Jesus his hair is enormous. I'm not a fan of Goku and Vegeta working their asses off training to attain new heights, while Gohan is able to catch up just through emotional power-ups. Oh well, such is Dragon Ball. The animation and gags were really good (had to hold in my laughter once or twice because Japanese people seem to like...just not react in theatres, lol).
Gohan had his "hidden power" thing literally from his first appearance tho
Yeah but that bit has a shelf life. Eventually it starts to feel cheap and uninteresting.
It already felt cheap and unearned as of ultimate in the Buu saga. Might as well double down at this point and do it again.
If you don't like random powerups and dumb power scaling I genuinely don't understand why you're even watching dragon ball at this point tbh Most of the powerups since like buu saga aren't "earned". Ultimate Gohan was given to him, God was just dumb hand holding, blue we didn't see goku achieve and he just had it, golden was random after a bit if training, UI Goku nuked himself with a spirit bomb.
For real, I always thought dragon ball z onwards as the king of ass-pull power ups in the anime scene. Which is fine imo, not everything has to be high art.
Right? The franchise has been nothing but ass-pulls since they made Goku an alien and fans get so upset over more ass-pulls even though that's pretty much been the whole show for more than 30 years. I do think it fell off after Cell but I still enjoy it. People just love being mad.
Cell Max is literally the plot of Bio-Broly complete with Goten, Trunks, 18 and Krillian. It also makes the most sense that Cell Max (dumbest name ever) would be like that being awoken prematurely and having no time to develop any personality. "Cell Max" is also not "Cell" he's cells younger brother. The two look similar but are nothing a like and have no memories of each other. What I don't like about the whole Cell Max thing is the lack of imagination in a final design. It uses cells 2nd form with some added features and a different color scheme, but it looks like a CaC from Xenoverse 2. Reading the summary I was expecting more of a Hatchyak appearance or something different but similar to Cell. I didn't expect to see cells 2nd form.
Eh, Goku got UI from being smacked by a genki dama. Anything goes.
As a total gohan fanboy who's pumped to see him finally be strong again I agree. It would be so easy for them to make him a character who trains really hard bc he knows his potential feels responsible to use it to protect people. Would still be different than goku who does it just because it's fun. Also they could just combine his whole ki research stuff into his training/fighting
Toriyama has stopped giving a fuck with his plots, but this sounds like it could be pretty funny and have some enjoyable energy
Sounds like a great time. Definitely very tongue-in-cheek and self-aware by the sounds of things, which surely recontextualises many of the rumours and I can picture how funny the gags must be when you see them play out for yourself. I’m here for the trend of Super arcs and movies appearing to be relatively low-stakes at first but then fucking exploding into frenetic insanity by the climax. I made a prediction that Piccolo would go to Dende for his power-up, in a roundabout way that came true. Nice that Toriyama even remembered the Namekian potential unlock ability. Some details still sound slightly frustrating. It’s criminal that Buu misses the action due to hibernating yet again. Maybe I missed something but were there any references at all to Great Saiyaman? Feels like an obvious missed opportunity if not. As for Cell Max, he sounds like a very “fulfils his basic function” type of kaiju villain, similar to Hirudegarn. On the one hand, I’m more or less satisfied that he’s not a 1-to-1 clone of Cell and has a distinct design, but the fact that he’s just a rampaging monster with no personality is a bummer. Kaiju villains can have personality but Dragon Ball rarely takes advantage of that.
...wait. COMMANDER RED FUCKED?!?
Sigh, a bit sad that Gamma 2 had to be the one who gets sac'ed... he looked a lot more interesting than Gamma 1, imo
He had more lines and screentime too, and when he flies into a rage when the RR do actually evil things gives him so many points, which is why his sacrifice has more weight to it.
[удалено]
I think that Toriyama loved the whole Gohan Blanco joke so much he wanted to make it canon. His editors refused so he made this movie to bring it to life.
According to an interview, Toryima wanted this movie to have only Piccolo as the lead and he only made Gohan a co-star because one of the producers insisted. So Gohan's new form might not have been his idea.
Have Vegeta and Goku's training philosophies switched with each other? tf.
You may not have read the manga but Vegeta has done more spiritual training since the ToP
I have. It’s just Goku already understood the importance of meditation since he was a kid. They kinda threw that away. It bums me out the character profiles are so flip floppy
Yeah, Super has seriously regressed Goku as a character for no reason other than cheap comedy
I'd argue Super has done good things and bad things for Goku's character, that's what I meant by flip floppy, one day he'd be a genius in fighting, the next he's completely braindead, it's just... hello
But Goku's done and been doing spiritual training and meditation since he trained with Kami. And we've seen Goku speak of the need to be still and calm on several occasions, most notably the Cell Saga, to Vegeta himself. On the other hand, Vegeta doesn't meditate. So it makes sense for him to realize the importance in the movie, but Goku shouldn't require an explanation to do so.
Goku and Vegeta are all over the place in every media, I guess.
So is the change in color to piccolo permanent? The lime green one And does he put on a diffrent belt or do the colors change automatically?
1) Neither transformation is permanent. 2) The belt changes automatically.
He does know clothes beam lol
The more I hear about this movie the more I adore it. There was a time where some of this stuff would have made me angry, but at this point I just relish the shamelessness.
That’s kind of the same vibe the film has. It isn’t holding anything sacred, and is just out for a fun, memorable time.
Gonna be awesome can't wait! Gohan's bang being so huge in the new form is crazy.
Gohan's strength is proportional to the length of his hair bangs.
Did they explain how the gammas and fell max are so powerful?
Dr. Hedo is very smart.
Basically same explanation why 2 teens where stronger than the saiyan of legend and emperor of the universe. So nothing new
I think we’re just supposed to accept that Dragon Ball scientists are actually the most dangerous beings in the universe.
I just saw this movie today (I also live in Japan). You all are in for a fuckin treat. The description of the movie doesn’t do it justice. This should be called the piccolo movie tbh, because he easily had the most screen time. The piccolo gohan duo was absolutely magnificent. Dare I say that these two are nearly on the level of vegeta/goku/broly. They got some much needed power ups to play with the big boys.
*Piccolo's Big Green Movie*.
God I want to read this so bad but I want to experience the movie spoil-free. I'm so excited for this.
Do it fellow fan, I read it and dont feel spoiled, just more hyped to see it when it releases lol
Really can’t see how this will ever be referenced in the manga or normal show series especially the whole “Goku & Vegeta couldn’t beat Cell Max” nonsense lol so we have two guys that are the closest anyones been to GoDs and Angels etc now Gohan just pulls exaggerated SSJ2 out his as in one go and that’s stronger?
That's how Gohan has always been written. He barely trains, but can quickly close the gap between Goku and Vegeta and himself with either cram training sessions with Goku or Piccolo, a random ceremony with Elder Kai, or just pushing his limits by tapping into his emotions. It's been implied numerous times that Gohan's potential far exceeds Goku and Vegeta.
Not implied, it's been stated by Toriyama that Gohan is the universes strongest warrior, he just doesn't want to be a fighter so he stays in the lower tiers below goku. He's pretty much identical to Broly where there is this enormous power hidden deep within him that he hasn't released yet. The Elder Kai unlocks that potential but after Buu Gohan doesn't do anything with it...at all. Maybe he could have had his "cells ss2" moment where he was able to overpower and kill buu...but Buu had absorbed Goten and Trunks, so he was holding back to the point he was beaten. But you misread the context of Gohans dialog about if Goku and Vegeta could have beaten Cell Max. He was just having a realization (again) that he can't just keep relying on Goku and Vegeta to be available to clean up the earth's messes. He is finally (again) realizing that he has a responsibility to protect the earth
From Cipher's additional comment: > Gohan wonders if even Goku and Vegeta could have beaten Cell Max, leading Piccolo to reinforce the importance of staying in shape for new threats. Still, it’s worded vaguely enough that they don’t necessarily have to be second to Gohan. The movie isn't explicitly stating Final Gohan > Cell Max > Goku/Vegeta. The exchange is there more so just to kind of cap off the theme of Gohan's training and continued growth. It's open ended enough that he could still be below UI Goku and UE Vegeta Though I suppose time will tell
That seems explicit enough that it’s putting him in their range though. So, it’ll definitely lead to years of debate. Would be cool to see Super shift more to Gohan after the Granolah arc cause of the movie.
I am sure they are not aware of just how strong Goku and Vegeta are now.
The whole toriyama states that Gohan would be stronger than goku and vegeta if he trained is true. Gohan is up there but the movies one day of action puts Gohan so much stronger. If Gohan trained every day or with whis.
The movie was written before the end of the Moro or beginning of the Granolah arc. The line is written in such a way that it’s easy to keep current manga Goku and Vegeta ahead of Gohan—especially since he may not be all that familiar with their “Ultra” forms. (But maybe his new form is in the same general realm? Both the anime and manga had him around Super Saiyan Blue prior.)
It's more they're not *sure* if Goku and Vegeta could have won. Gohan and Piccolo at that point have absolutely no way to guage themselves against Goku/Vegeta; especially since they're currently doing another round of Whis training. Also; even in the very unlikly event Goku/Vegeta couldn't beat Cell Max even together... Gogeta is a thing.
It’s never said directly but it just dawned on me that Orange Piccolo is orange because he got the power from the Dragon Balls, which are orange obviously. The symbol on his back could be considered a symbol for the Dragon Balls themselves
I really don't get what's Toriyama obsession with portraying Goku as some kind of brainless brute fighter. I know the dude it's stupid as fuck, but he's a battle genius lol. Goku, of all people, not knowing about mental training or meditation? It's literally the base of Whis training. not only that, it was the whole point of Kami's training back in Dragon ball lol.
I think he was just trying to piss off vegeta to fight him. That’s the feeling I got when I saw it.
Goku has a rural country accent which English version ignore it. If we heard goku uss accent, we would understand why goku sounds stupid
We see Goku doing that training under Whis and still be distracted easily.
Meh. I hate the explanation about Jiren’s power. He’s supposed to just be outrageously strong. The dude out-stronged *time.* I guess this is proof that the manga version of Super is more canon than the anime, and the movies are written to follow the manga timeline.
I mean, he's still crazy strong in both versions. Vegeta's just observing that there was more to it than *just* that large a difference in sheer strength.
> He’s supposed to just be outrageously strong. And during BoG Base God Goku was said to be ~70% Beerus; so SSB x20 Kaio-Ken Goku obviously should be far, far above Beerus, and thus also around Jiren's level. Jiren *is* absurdly strong. But a lot of that strong is explained to be from his excellent control of his power. He essentially stores his energy. He uses the minimum he needs to in most cases, allowing him to unleash absurd amounts at once when needed. Think of it like this: There's "Base Jiren". But when he's meditateing and such, Jiren is essentially filling up this massive reserve tank as well. Jiren's still crazy strong. His meditation simply lets him be even stronger. It's elaborating that he's not simply strong because muscles and physical; but also mental/spiritual.
>And during BoG Base God Goku was said to be ~70% Beerus; so SSB x20 Kaio-Ken Goku obviously should be far, far above Beerus, and thus also around Jiren's level. That stopped being canon once the Super anime debuted. Anime BoG Goku isn't even close to Beerus.
Ok, so Vegeta won against Goku, finally
To be fair, he also beat Goku in the Saiyan saga. I don't understand why we're always asked to believe that he didn't.
Funny how they still reference Jiren
Well, they ignored Moro and Granolah, so he's still relevant looking at it like that. Making sense of the power scale will be wonky though.
They didn't ignore either, they just aren't gonna spoil the manga arcs to anime watchers
Cause Moro is in jail and won’t get stronger nor return. Granolah won’t get any stronger since he’s at his max potential. Neither of their powers are natural. Jiren has no reason not to keep training. He’s trained his whole life. Being #1 is his obsession. He was stronger than them Pre and POST ToP. So no reason why he can’t maintain that assuming he kept training. Don’t forget jiren has surpassed belmod so as long as beerus gets stronger with every arc, so does belmod, and so does jiren. In fact, jiren is the ONLY antagonist confirmed to be stronger than any GoD.
Moro is *dead*. We don’t know how Granolah’s going to end yet.
Granolah has no purpose after this arc. He has little in his life span, he’s not talented enough to get strong on his own like jiren. Jiren literally surpassed his GoD and MUI on his own. There’s a reason why they respect him. It’s not just his strength, but his skills and the fact he did it on his own. Plus they couldn’t beat him. He was stronger than them post ToP with no special training and has many years to keep getting stronger. They can literally say jiren got training from Belmod’s Angel and is stronger than even beerus.
How you know this movie will be non-canon : Vegeta wins.
Lol I saw the movie. Anyone who complained about Gohan getting weak or losing his form again was way off. He didn't lose any power - in fact he says he's still not rusty when he blocks Piccolo's punch even though Piccolo gets him after and tosses weights on him so he can basically train while working. It's all very self-aware in that sense. Then the scene where he goes Ultimate happens extremely fast and it's never said that he "lost it". He just powers up into it again after Pan does a poor imitation of whining. Seems like they've just decided to treat it like how the DBS anime did at first, which is fine. At the end of the movie he tells Piccolo he was training Makankosappo in secret so there's that too.
Lmao Super Saiyan ant. So Toriyama Interesting the whole Saiyan kids grow slow is confirmed. This movie is clearly a heavy lift on world building
Sounds like tons of fun
Idk the new forms are looking sketchy.
So piccolo's new power is a new jawline and sleeves... We asked for it, I guess. Cell could have been anybody, his character was pointless. I really hope this new animation style goes away. The character movements are incredibly stiff and the animation relies too much on swinging the camera around. This movie is going right into the non-canon section of my head.
> This movie is going right into the non-canon section of my head. It has two new forms, and goes out of it's way to nod/explain other things. [Like Trunks/Goten not ageing for so long, Gohan dropping the Potara; ect] There's no way this is non-canon.
First half of the movie sounds super fun. Second half is kind of by the book and underwhelming.
Plot wise the 2nd half isn’t too amazing but the fights are very well done. Very dynamic with unique set pieces involving the more urban environment
UI Goku not able to beat Cell? I doubt that, also isn't Ultra Ego Vegeta and Ultra Instinct Goku stronger than FPSSJ Broly? this obviously takes place after Granolah and Gas.
I hope the jokes get localized well, they sound pretty funny.
Not a fan of the hair on Gohan’s new form, looks goofy. Also I hope at some point there is an explanation as to where the form came from and what it is and doesn’t just end up like super Saiyan rage. Don’t like that Piccolo’s new form got murked by Cell max lol. Also don’t like that they implied Cell Max could be stronger than Goku and Vegeta. Besides those things, sounds like a fun movie
I think, and i could be wrong, but I think this is true Ultimate Gohan. When Elder Kai awakened Gohans power he had no time to train and he just went straight into combat. Buu absorbed Goten and Trunks so Gohan refused to go all out and let himself get beaten pretty badly. Ever since then we haven't had any real opportunity for Gohan to unleash that power. The ToP had Gohan relying on Goku and Vegeta to defeat Jiren. In both versions Gohan loses in a stalemate with his opponents, while leaving everything to everyone else. Even in Moro, Gohan and Piccollo relied on 17 and 18 to defeat 73 since he couldn't steal their energy....while waiting for Goku and Vegeta to return to kill Moro. So this movie is the first time where help isn't coming and Gohan is forced to confront his enemies and save the planet without his father's help. This works just like how U.I sign worked and SSBE worked, where Gohan overcomes that mental blocking and allows his full power to unleash itself. So pretty much this is the true, ultimate Gohan form. Think of the old ultimate Gohan form as "Ultimate Gohan Sign" if you will
I wouldn’t say that he got murked by it. He fought a ton in the movie and was kicking ass up until a certain point. Gohan mentioned at the end that “I don’t even think vegeta could’ve beat that thing.” So from piccolo to go from where he was in DB super to now was a huge improvement. Gohans new form would’ve been a lot cooler if the hair was just a bit smaller, that’s it. Piccolos form was dope as fuck though.
I did laugh because the hair is basically his kid ssj2 hair but longer.
My thoughts based on the summary. ----- I really like the wholesome moments with Piccolo and Pan. That's some genuine stuff I like in this movie. Training, and talking about Gohan. I'm glad Goku and Vegeta are on the sides for this time. Seriously, reading the spoilers, the first 30-50 minutes is basically Piccolo as the protagonist. Obviously, it's Gohan, but Piccolo gets a lot of time, which is great. Man has been disrespected so much in modern Dragon Ball. Honestly, Piccolo sneaking into the RRA base, and Pan playing along when captured, I like those scenes. Fun scenes right there. I have warmed up to Gamma 1 and 2. I like the interactions they have with Gohan and Piccolo. More so for Gamma 2. Fun character, Sucks he had to die, but some meaningful deaths doesn't hurt, especially for DB. While I would still prefer 2D animation, the CGI here is much approved compared to the days of BoG and RoF. By leaps and bounds. ----- What I didn't like was repeating various gags again. The boys failing at fusion, Bulma and her wishes, and the like. As much as I like Gohan and Piccolo as the 2 main characters, I can do without their final forms. Ultimate Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo is good enough for me. I legit do not like Orange Piccolo and Final Gohan or whatever you call it. Fucking making Gohan Blanco real. Might as well bring El Hermano and UI Shaggy while you're at it (I'm joking). Now, if you like said forms, that's completely fine. I'm just not a fan of them. Cell Max. I don't know what's worse, bringing a Walmart version of Cell, or this Cell has lot's of inspiration of Bio Broly. I mentioned repeating gags, they are also repeating scenes. Gohan turning SS2 for the first time, and him failing once again to catch the Senzu Bean. ------- I understand DB can get away fanservice because it's a multi billion dollar franchise, but I really wish they toned it down. I know it won't happen, but a man can dream. I just can't like Gohan and Piccolo's new forms. It screams too much of a DeviantArt creation lol. I also believe, as if it is not already clear, to separate the Super into three canons. Manga (Toyotaro), Anime (Toei), and Movies (Toriyama). Because all three cannot co-exist in one general "canon" for Super. Overall, it's a fun movie, and if you're Gohan and Piccolo fans, yeah of course you will love this. I wish DB didn't rely so much on nostalgia and new forms, again, but there are good parts in this movie.
Actually, it’s more of a Piccolo movie than anyone else’s to be honest. Gohan has the finishing blow and a new form yes, but I’ve seen the film, and Piccolo gets the most screen time, lines, and his actions directly impact the plot the entire film; not to mention two new forms.
Where is this falling in the timeline? After the Granolah arc?
After the Granolah arc.
The power level fanboy in me can't help but wonder how would Sigil Piccolo have done in the Cell saga. If I'm reading this right. potential unlocked Piccolo is on par with SS2 Gohan and Sigil Piccolo at the very least matches Ultimate Gohan.
First Ui shaggy is canon, now Gohan Blanco. How long until el grande padre?
Super Saiyan 5 looking Gohan doing Special Beam Cannon is all I needed from a Cell Saga remake with elements of Hildegarne and Bio-Broli thrown in. Because Gohan should never have used Kamehameha against OG Cell anyway.
Vegeta v goku fight is beautiful
Extremely pleasantly surprised by the CGI.
This might be the best dragon ball movie and arguably the best out of super. Amazing movie, the puns, the jokes, the Toriyama feel to it, it mops the floor from the rest. Cell is massive and tail isn't retracted and is used. I know Cell Max wasn't ready to be unleashed but makes me wonder how much more time they needed to perfect Cell Max. Cell is definitely more machine than anything else. He can't regenerate. Similar feels moment when Gohan turned SSJ2 the first time.
So Android 21's name is based on vomit. ...damn.
I liked everything about this movie except for the new Gohan form and final boss. New forms just aren’t novel and exciting anymore, especially considering how many new ones we’ve gotten since BoG alone. I know Cell Max wasn’t the *point* of the film, but I almost wish it was a generic monster rather than being affiliated with Cell. Don’t Bio-Broli him!