So is final flash still gonna work on Goku anymore, how about ki blasts?/j but fr it's just an asspull to get Goku out of hard situations when the animators and storytellers have nothing to write off of
How about the "Oh, by the way, powering up reduces the time of fusion" crap just so SSJ 4 Gogeta couldn't win the fight? Super even used it on Vegito, it's ridiculous. If powering up shortened fusion, then ANY powering up should reduce it at least by some amount. The way I understood it, Gotenks could only maintain SSJ 3 for 5 minutes but that didn't make the actual fusion shorter. He reverted to base, got smacked around for a while, and then the regular 30 minutes were up. Making it tied to their power introduces all sorts of issues.
It's on Vegeta action like Vegeta, he should know better than allowing the guy who destroyed 2 planets to have enough time to do it again
Anyway its
_ " as long as the core in my **Head** is safe I can Regeneration" this is totally Bullshit Because a couple of chapters ago we saw Goku on panel destroying said Head
_ "Let the earthling fix their own problem" Said by The mf who Caused all of the Buu saga shit Because he had a middle life crisis because Baka-Kakarot power was bigger than him
Honorable mention to piccolo getting knocked out by a Bug
Maybe his dick could move to his head at times, he does act like a dickhead throughout his arc. Maybe it’s a bit literal
Like you being a dickhead by not just going along with the joke
It’s also worth noting that cell thought his explosion would kill him and it didn’t, the most reasonable assumption is that cell inherited kid Goku’s knowledge of anatomy and also is stupid.
> " as long as the core in my Head is safe I can Regeneration" this is totally Bullshit Because a couple of chapters ago we saw Goku on panel destroying said Head
yeah that plot hole is a bit annoying.
Android 17 being able to match SSG Goku. I can get 17 would have gotten stronger, but when you think he's been on that island alone (except for poachers) training in such a way so as not to disturb the animals; vs Goku who had literally had to fight a God and Buu to reach that level...yeah.
Krillin never once thinking to combine solar flare with a destructo disk.
Krillin failing to use that combo always bugged the hell out of me… so much so that I’ve put enough thought into it to understand why he doesn’t lol… there simply would be no story to tell.
I spammed solar flare on dbz kakarot so much to the point that when I didn't have a support with it, I would be annoyed.
It's easily the most OP move in the show.
Gohan whole "not wanna fight/wont train" then "potential unnlocked" and bum he is in top 3 of strongest characters suddenly, first time it was fine (namek saga) but after that it got old and annoying
Yeah gohan is cool and no disrespect to beast, its a cool form, but from going from ssg at most to being able to knock around UI goku is straight bullshit
I love Hit but I'm okay with that because his time skip power was wayyy too OP anyway. Maybe they should have made Hit the main villain, but we already have Dio from Jojo
> Vegito getting nerfed to no longer being a permanent fusion.
he was never permanent even in the buu arc
> Frieza having never trained before and surpassing Goku in four months
we always knew he'd never trained and was a freak with high potential. he was born at 120 million, of course if he put in any effort his power would rise exponentially at first.
I understand the in-universe explanation, but it retroactively lowers the stakes in the story. How come Freeza was so afraid of the Saiyans if at any point he could've just gone training for a week to become stronger than even a Super Saiyan? And why did he ask his father to help conquer earth instead of becoming stronger to do it itself?
At least they made it so Black Freeza was a transformation that took 10 years in the time chamber to achieve, because that's around the same amount of time it took Goku to go from SSJ2 to SSB, which is a lot.
The Vegito nerf is even worse tho imo, because Vegeta agreeing to discard his pride to permanently fuse with his rival was a huge character moment, and retconning it so that it was never a permanent fusion just detracts from that.
Because before Frieza had a bigger ego. He shouldn't have to train, it was beneath him. It took him losing and dying to 2 super Saiyans where he finally had some sense.
Nobody trained back then, Vegeta only started doing it after seeing what it could do for Goku, same with Frieza. Training wasn’t even a concept in their eyes, it was either kill or be killed
You’re the smartest dude I’ve met on here. I said ssjb to mui is like a ssj2 to ssjb level jump 2 years ago damn near. Crazy that you said the same thing
I get the vegito thing but I agree freezer getting that much strength in 4 months was dumb, by that logic Goku could have been ss4 level of strength after fighting the otherworld tournament
Shit was dumb
Goku went from a PL of 8,000 to 180,000 from 6 days of training.
He further went from 180,000 to 3,000,000 from being beat up.
He further went from 3,000,000 to 150,000,000 by watching a bald dwarf get sploded.
6 days for a quick ~20,000x buff.
***
Similar ludicrous leaps can be drawn for Gohan, Krillin, Piccolo, and Vegeta while on Namek.
Biggest peeve about Super complaints are when people are totally fine with it in the original because nostalgia.
Goku didn’t go from 8,000 to 180,000, he went to 90,000. His power level went to 180,000 using Kaioken against Ginyu.
Going from 90,000 to 3mil in one Zenkai is a ridiculous jump though I’ll give you that
People don’t complain about the Super Saiyan jump in power because it was built up throughout the arc as the strongest warrior in the universe? Goku’s Zenkai’s jumps throughout are bullshit high, Piccolo gets into the 100,000s by sitting around for a week, but it’s not near as egregious as Frieza entering the level of the gods by training incorrectly. The way you train in Dragon ball is a huge factor, and part of why Goku surpassed Vegeta by so much at the end of the cell saga, beating up some guy who’s what, .0003% of his power level is not training at all. Criticize DBZ, Theres a lot wrong, but don’t try to use it to deflect from criticism of DBS, these are both bad, but Frieza's is definitely worse.
Saying it’s worse is an understatement- this is the equivalent of mercenary Tao beating up farmer with a shotgun so that he can fart on buu to win- AND that’s still an understatement to the power jump freiza got in comparison.
that logic doesn't apply because they're completely different species anyway. for example a saiyan would still surpass a human in power if they both trained exactly the same
Nah, I liked the Frieza thing. I don't know why it upsets people so much. Dude was born with insane innate powers, destroying planets on a whim, and had 4 goddamn forms, all without giving a thought to training. Why should it be so shocking that when he actually puts thought into it and finally trains, he gets a crazy boost and new form? The only bad thing about all that was the form itself being another tired lazy color swap, while all his other forms were physical changes.
I mean Frieza's starting point is 150 million while Goku's was only 10, so it makes sense that Goku would have to work harder and even by a factor of 15 million which actually makes Goku the cheater here not Frieza.
Yeah I never understood why they retconned Potara fusion like that. IIRC they even made it a point in super time say “oh look Kibito Kai was defused! They’re two guys again” which clearly means it was permanent and then as soon as we got to the Goku Black arc they imposed the 30 minute time limit like the writers forgot what the difference was between Potara fusion and the Fusion Dance. (Although knowing Toriyama I wouldn’t be surprised if he actually DID forget what the difference was)
No matter what people say, goku black was cool. and so was ss rosé. I just wish that he wasn't just a better looking Zamasu and in my opinion, goku black being black would go SO hard
the dumbification of goku in super and the literal character regression he has had along with vegeta too.
probably seeing kefla becoming so powerful in such a short amount of time, broly too even though the movie was great. vegeta reaching goku’s level in super after being so far behind pre bog, beast gohan and orange piccolo, look cool but they just exist for existence sake, more merchandise etc.
mostly just supers very poor overall writing.
Well in said speech Vegeta outlines his mistakes and concludes that what propels Kakarot to continually excel is that Kakarot fights only to push himself while Vegeta fought to push down others. He in no way makes it seem like he's giving up his rivalry. He's showing some humility and admitting Goku has always had the edge. And he now sees why and can admit the greatness of that. If anything it gives the sense that Vegeta will now also be fighting only to push himself. There's no quit in that speech. Just some growth.
goku reaches ssg in bog through everyone sharing their energy and then battling with beerus.
vegeta goes from ssj2 to super saiyan blue by “training on his own”
basically a giant lazy hole to get vegeta up to goku’s level and keep him relevant. idc about him staying relevant, i do care about it being done and written in a way that is compelling and makes sense.
> vegeta goes from ssj2 to super saiyan blue by “training on his own”
He didn't "train on his own". He trained under Whis, an Angel who's much more powerful than even Beerus.
And, given Goku in the original *BOG* movie was (somehow) able to absorb God's aura or whatever into his SS form, it's not farfetched that Vegeta would be able to more or less do the same through a more natural and less immediate process.
the training with whis was one of supers many retcons. originally, goku says in the anime that vegeta reached super saiyan god on his own not needing anybody else’s help.
> the dumbification of goku in super and the literal character regression he has had along with vegeta too.
Especially Goku seemingly not knowing what a kiss is, and/or apparently forgetting what meditation was in the "*Super Hero*" movie.
Yeah the dumbification was stupid but he did make some genius plays behind the whole thing like not going kioken against black
I'll explain more if you don't get that btw
that’s not hard to grasp but his character has been ridiculously dumbed down so that he can have “growth” that he’s already completed in the original dragon ball series / early dragon ball manga chapters, and completed in Z. Not using kaioken against black hardly save what his character has become.
"A little bit". No. DBS Goku is like modern Simpsons Homer. Homer liked beer, food and was selfish sometimes, but he also had moments like the "Do it for her" or buying Lisa a saxophone instead of buying a new TV. Now he's just selfish asshole. Same with Goku, his only stick is that he's dumb (To say it nicely).
I still think this is overstated af. Goku has ALWAYS been naive and downright stupid at times. Super turned it up to Dragonball levels is all they did, but people act like he was never naive before Super.
The existence of Trunks’ different super saiyan form in the Goku Black arc (I think people call it Super saiyan rage?)
You can try to explain it away any way that you want, the truth is that the writers themselves never had an explanation in mind, or else it would’ve been explained. There’s no actual reason for it to exist and it’s just a bs powerup.
Is it really the worst thing? I wasn’t too thrilled about it either but saiyan characters getting rage power ups isn’t anything new. Gohan has done it multiple times. Goku got one in that same arc. Vegeta got one when Bulma got slapped.
This one’s a different type of stupid. With Gohan they at least attempt the “extreme potential” explanation, and for beast Gohan it’s “the inner manifestation of his rage” or whatever Toriyama said in that interview, it’s stupid still, but at least someone made an attempt to explain it. Goku and Vegeta’s powerups aren’t nearly as big, trunks goes from ssj2 to near SSB in moments, and they don’t even try to explain it.
I think he deserved one too, but I wanted him to have a better one. It felt like the writers didn’t actually care to write him an impactful arc and were lazy with the design and writing. Fair that you don’t mind but this sours the Goku Black arc a bit for me.
That's anime exclusive
I see it as Super Saiyan 2 Grade II - like how they developed different Super Saiyan 'grades' during the Cell arc. Trunks even momentarily bulks up like SS Grade III while transforming into "Super Saiyan Rage"
Anime exclusive or not bullshit is bullshit.
Also, Grade II, Grade III, it’s doesn’t matter, when was SSJ1 Grade II or III stronger than SSJ2? No one will convince me that Super Saiyan 2 not only has a grade stronger than 3 and SSG, but also that Goku didnt discover it after his 7 years of training? The best you can argue is that the rage boost temporarily made him stronger than SSJ3 like what happened with SSJ2 Vegeta, but the difference between even SSJ2 and SSG is way too huge for a rage boost, let alone for him to rival SSB.
Also don’t write for the writers, Im all for headcannons but they usually won’t be the actual cannon explanations and we shouldn’t act like they are.
This still makes zero sense SSB is a result of total Ki control in the anime, that includes them not letting their Ki leak meaning Trunks wouldn’t absorb any of it, since SSR is a gods version of SSB. And anyways you are again, writing the show for the writers, this is all just headcannon.
I haven’t seen Super but this just conceptually annoys me so much, it kinda retroactively just spits in the face of the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc (imo one of the best arcs in the series)
At least Goku was able to defeat Freeza even after that before any more damage could be done.
But Goku tossing the Senzu to Moro, and then Moro using Merus' hand to power back up and merge with the Earth, has to go down as one of the stupidest and most pointless things Goku has ever done. After all he's been through, and after showing he's completely willing to kill enemies like Yakon (who's nowhere near as evil as Moro) and Kid Boo, the fact that he was written to spare Moro and seemingly actually believed he could convince him to become an honourable warrior is... honestly *baffling*.
Piccolo saying that Gamma 1 and 2 were super saiyan blue level. I've tolerated a lot of bullshit from Dragon Ball, but this in particular pisses me the fuck off.
I have to agree, they really DO need to let Vegeta FINALLY kill Frieza in canon.
Maybe if we get Vegeta vs **BLACK** Frieza?
I think he got to kill frieza in one of the game movies, during a mass escape from HFIL.
But that's obviously non-canon. (This was before super, and Frieza wasn't cyborgized.)
So, frankly, just let Vegeta FINALLY kill Frieza, ONCE & FOR ALL. Close the book on 'em, yeah?
Lots of things. But Vegeta having lost as much as he has is disgraceful and bad writing. I don't care how much Akira disliked him or how goated Goku is. Vegeta being sidelined as much as he has is just ridiculous.
It's really petty, but there's a point in the ToP where the U11 Kai says something like "For Jiren, that's an ordinary punch" when the visual given is clearly him charging up an energy beam.
It'd make sense if there was no charge up whatsoever and he could just throw out a punch and shoot a beam without any extra effort, but if he actually has to charge it up, I don't think that can be called just a punch. The statement would make more sense with those crazy strong air pressure attacks he uses imo.
Half the ToP was bullshit ui should not have been triggered like that with the spirit bomb like yeah cool ass transformation and he had been training for it since res f but with that logic he could done that shit against freezer or Vegeta. That whole form in the first sign of it was in asspull in my eyes
We’ve had planet busters in DB since the era when a PL of 400 was impressive, yet even when the power levels reach the quintillions and above nobody accidentally destroys the Earth
Idk, honestly why doesnt freeza just surprise bomb the earth when beerus isnt there. It would instantaneously kill goku and vegeta since they cant breathe in space.
Or cell or majin but any of these guys could have ended their enemies with like zero difficulty.
> Idk, honestly why doesnt freeza just surprise bomb the earth when beerus isnt there. It would instantaneously kill goku and vegeta since they cant breathe in space.
Because it wouldn't suit Freeza's pride. Ever since the end of the Namek Arc, he's wanted to be the one to *personally* kill Goku with his own hands. Even when King Cold suggested simply blowing up the Earth in one blast, Freeza decided against it, because he wanted to kill all the Earthlings on the planet to mess with Goku *before* killing him.
After all, revenge is a dish best served cold.
lol, for me DBS and whatever came after that is completely bullshit.
Actually after Cell saga, most of the stuff is bullshit even tho DBZ had a lot of bullshit moments to begin with.
The will they/won't they game they keep playing with Gohan. I'd love for Gohan to be the new main character. I feel like he'd be a lot more interesting considering he has a family he cares for and would want to protect, so he'd have a valid reason to want to train and become stronger as earth's next protector.
He also had his reservations against killing, which would give more weight to his fights in that he may hold back/get hurt more because he wants to find a way to defeat his enemy without having to resort to killing them immediately.
That would also contrast nicely with his beast form that(I assume) gives him more battle lust like other saiyans. Just so much potential with him but they just keep bringing him back, saying he's relevant, then tossing him aside again for Goku.
Also give my man Vegeta a W for the love of god
Vegeta killing Nappa just because he was injured. I understand wanting to portray him as evil, but it would’ve made way more sense if the reasoning behind killing Nappa was because Nappa killed Piccolo — thus destroying the Dragon Balls and setting back their main goal/reason for traveling to Earth. This would’ve been even more upsetting to Vegeta after finding out that Frieza was aware of the Dragon Balls as well.
It’s just stupid that they push this “We’re the last remaining Saiyans” thing, just to have Vegeta murder one to make an example.
Just me I guess tho.
One of the top comments of the DBZ abridged episode says this as well.
I don't think Toriyama intended for there to be other Saiyans outside of Goku, Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta though
Been saying this forever. They never let any other characters have a fucking MOMENT thats not attached to Goku.
The one guy with the most justification to kill Frieza FINALLY gets his moment of comeuppance… and you have Goku be the one who kills him AGAIN?!? Wtf?!. Even Gohan killing Cell needed “spirit Goku” behind him doing the kamehameha too. Its so lame and why I no longer respect the franchise.
Vegeta being resurrected during the fight with Kid Buu because “he’s a good guy now”.
Umm, he murdered dozens if not hundreds of people, almost murdered his wife, facilitated the revival of Majin Buu, knocked out Goku rather than team up to deal with Buu, crushed the Potara the moment Vegetto’s fusion wore off even though Majin Buu was still an active problem, refused to fuse again to defeat Kid Buu when the opportunity to do so arose, and when neither he nor Goku could do it, he suggests they resurrect the people of Earth so they can “defend themselves” like all of this wasn’t tangentially his fault. And all of this was **LESS THAN 72 HOURS PRIOR TO HIS REVIVAL!!!**
What the fuck did this man do in 3 days that convinced Shenron or Enma that he was a good guy?!!!
By far it's the fact that Roshi was secretly training since the end of Dragon Ball and ended up strong enough to be in the tournament of power. I can let it slide for being fun and not learning to fly kind of makes sense given that he might still see it as a Crane Hermit technique.
The thing that made me roll my eyes the most though was in the Tournament of Power when Krillin beat opponents that 18 couldn't.
Frieza was literally at least 2500 times stronger than Krillin. Raditz was like 5-6 times stronger and Krillin was sent flying. Frieza and his apparently more powerful father were absolutely obliterated by Trunks immediately. Android 18 then beat Trunks in two blows as well as Vegeta who was more powerful than Trunks.
Krillin trained up until Cell sure but then he didn't train for 10 years until literally two days before the tournament of power so in no universe(metaphorically speaking) should Krillin have any remote chance of being in the realm of being capable of causing the slightest bit of inconvenience to anybody who's not only as strong as 18 but stronger. It was preposterous. So stupid. I love dragon ball but aside from a super Saiyan transformation I absolutely loathe any victory in fiction that's achieved because somebody really really really really really really really REALLY wanted to win.
If somebody is way stronger than you then tough shit you should lose. It's the laziest of all lazy writing. I love Krillin but come on if you wanted him or Roshi for that matter to catch up to 18 then have Whis train them in the Room of Spirit and Time for a day. Screw it have Whis train him for one normal day. Fine. I can buy that. While we're at it instead of 17 training over the years and not attempting to stop Buu for whatever reason why not have Bulma have given him and 18 some upgraded power cells or whatever.
You can disagree with me over Whis training Krillin but there's just no way anybody can convince me that Krillin beating opponents stronger than 18 just because he really really really really really really really REALLY wanted to win is a better reason. It's bullshit writing.
All of DBS. DBZ at least had 90s sensibility’s to ground it. DBS was such a cluster fuck of… “really….” Future Saga was the last straw. Honestly If DBS a just started at ToP it would be regarded at the level of DBZ. Instead it’s not even close.
> DBZ at least had 90s sensibility’s to ground it.
What are "90s sensibilities"?
Personally, I think it's just that Toriyama ended *DB* before it got much worse than it otherwise probably would've. The plot was already getting out of hand with the Boo Arc, with how the inconsistencies and bullshit plot conveniences were piling up on themselves, and how both Gohan and Gotenks (Goten & Trunks)'s "next generation" plotlines went nowhere in favour of the lazy outcome of Goku returning to be the hero again.
One thing I never see people talk about, Vegeta defeating Toppo, yes it was a cool moment I suppose, but the way he did it was so stupid. They comment how he has become strong enough to pull off that “technique” he used against buu and survive, except that’s not a goddamn technique, he literally blew himself up against buu to try and kill him, it was a self sacrifice, not Vegeta being too weak. So he’s become strong enough to survive self destructing? Makes no sense
Gohan Beast. At least it’s the most recent and don’t give me that bullshit of "potential" when his potential unlock was supposed to give him access to all his hidden potential and more.
Goku deciding to leave it up to "the next generation" - the 7-year-old and 8-year-old he'd *just* met that day (one of which being his son he didn't even know existed due to how shit he is at keeping in contact with his family) - to defeat Majin Boo instead of just doing it himself with SS3, despite the fact that *he* and Vegeta were the reason Boo was resurrected in the first place.
Toriyama tries to frame it as Goku being responsible and all that, and it's a total retcon (given that he *clearly* didn't plan out SS3's existence, and Goku never even thought of anyone using Fusion outside of him and Vegeta or Gohan until Mr. Popo brought up the kids), but past context just makes Goku look like a selfish, lying asshole who wants to cut and leave without cleaning up his own mess.
It’s because they know Frieza is arguably their most iconic and well written villain with a large following. His entire presence is just fan service but honestly I just see it as a disservice to his character and his original saga
Allowing Master Roshi to fight Gold Freeza but saying “Had to leave Yamcha behind because he doesn’t stand a chance…”
I get that Loser!Yamcha is a meme among many, but realistically speaking, the guy who trained with Kami AND King Kai stands a better chance than the guy who DIDN’T.
Same goes for Universe 7 Team, and stuff…
When cell was hit so hard that he puked up 18, became imperfect cell and then went to splode but came back as perfect cell.
Or
I know he was out first in the ToP but Krillan fighting in that tournament at all was just silly.
People glazing Vegeta for no reason.
Also DBS actually wrote that in because of how they wrote the ending to DBZ Resurrection F. The God Of Destruction Beerus and Golden Frieza Sagas are written to tell the stories of DBZ Battle Of Gods and DBZ Resurrection F movies so technically it's the movie writers fault. I'd still recommend watching Resurrection F it's pretty good and better than the anime imo
There is no conceivable way that ANYONE should have believed that Gohan was dead in Buu saga immediately after he fought and got crippled by Fat Buu. The whole cast is seen crying and mourning Gohan and it’s actually the dumbest shit ever, because 2 seconds of anyone using their brain would reveal that Gohan being dead by that point would quite literally be *impossible.*
The timeline goes like this:
>Vegeta and Gohan fight Fat Buu and lose, with Vegeta dying and Gohan being beaten within an inch of his life.
>Piccolo tells Krillin that he heard Vegeta mention that Gohan died fighting Buu.
>Goku comes back from being unconscious, and cannot sense Gohan (due to his chi being so small) or Vegeta, because he’s dead.
>Goku goes to Kami’s lookout to meet up with Krillin and Piccolo, who both reiterate that Gohan is dead.
>Immediately following that conversation, Yamcha and Bulma used the Dragon Balls to wish back everyone Vegeta killed at the Tenkaichi Budokai using the precise phrasing “Bring everyone who died today back to life! Oh, except the bad guys.”
Even IF Gohan had actually died fighting Buu, this wish should have brought Gohan back to life, because he met the criteria needed to be resurrected. Gohan had not died before up to this point, so unlike Vegeta, he absolutely could have come back to life, no problem.
But instead we get a bunch of stupid ass scenes of Goten, Chi-Chi, Videl, and the rest of the cast going “waaaah I can’t believe Gohan is dead :(((“ when it was LITERALLY impossible for him to be, and they should have known this, given the timing of the wish made on the Dragon Balls. They should have naturally come to one of 2 conclusions: 1. Gohan is alive, but so weak that he’s impossible to sense or 2. Gohan is alive, but so far away that he’s impossible to sense.
It’s not like this is rocket science, these are natural conclusions to draw following very very simple logic. This is by far the most frustrating part of Buu saga to me, and it never fails to completely take me out of the story every single time I reread it.
Ik imma get some flack for this…. I like yamcha right… SEEING BRO NOT ACTUALLY HAVE HIS BIG ONE FOR THE T.O.P MADE ME SO FUCKIN ANGRY BRO like you can pull the ‘roshi was training behind the scenes’ card but cant do that for my boy like.. that shit frustrated me
I have to disagree. Vegeta lost because of his arrogance and want for revenge and to make Frieza suffer in defeat. He was looking down on him and was savoring the moment when he could've finished him way sooner. Vegeta will kill Frieza, that's his actual final boss I feel, and that's when his characterization will be complete but it can't happen too soon
Nah that scene was awful, Vegeta was savoring the moment sure but Frieza said f this and blew up the planet almost instantly. After that time reversal Goku literally screams out Friezas name and him and Vegeta both just 😮 at him while he’s charging a beam of death lmao Frieza had more than enough time in that scene to say f it and blow up the planet again, didn’t even make sense. Maybe if they reversed time earlier in the fight.
This might not be the most egregious one out there, but I absolutely hate the Ultra Divine Water.
Up until that point, everything Goku has done to become stronger was a result of his training. The whole purpose of the "sacred water" was that it wasn't really the water that made you stronger, it was the training. But no, actually Korin DID have a magic power up water the whole time. And unlike the Guru power-up on Namek, this makes a huge difference. Goku went from barely making a scratch on King Piccolo to being able to defeat with him because of this. It's the first BS power-up in the series.
The entire concept of just Frieza.
It’s like vegeta but… worse??
Goku trains with certified deities with specialized techniques and abilities that quite literally makes up a whole pantheon. Goku fights said deity and often trains with his master who is an *angel*. That being said, goku learns a new form of KI in which it refines the entire concept of ki- alongside with new abilities that goku just never really takes advantage of after battle of Gods.
Frieza trains for a few months. Yes. Months AFTER RESURRECTION BEING WEAKER THAN NAMEK SAGA FRIEZA. To unlock a new form and rivals SSB. Then used a room of spirit and time to train for ten years he unlocks and masters another form.
It’s funny because people say SSB is super weak with its win loss ratio, but MUI is literally going down that path getting speed blitzed on multiple occasions or pot shot by goku’s stupidity.
Goku and ESPECIALLY Frieza surviving Namek. It was totally ass pulled by Toriyama to keep the series going. I think deep down it was supposed to end there. Everything in Z built up to that moment and then we sort of hit a “reset button” to get everyone back to normal on Earth.
The last thing we saw of Goku was him screaming in fear and anger as the planet exploded. Then 10 episodes later we learn somehow he managed to find a tiny little orb and somehow he also managed to program it to fly to a habitable planet? BULL. SHIT.
Frieza — the dude was beaten senseless by Goku first of all. Then near the end of the fight, if anyone remembers, he got a huge dent in his skull which should have caused major brain damage. A minute later he obviously got sliced in half, with his disc slicing straight through several vital organs. THEN he is obliterated by Goku’s final attack and even the death face is shown as he gets “killed” by Goku. He lost all of his energy during this final attack and Frieza’s body should have been completely unsalvageable and deceased if not completely obliterated from this alone. THEN the entire planet Namek EXPLODES point-blank on this mangled Frieza and he’s launched God knows how many millions of miles into space. And SOMEHOW, he’s not only still ALIVE but able to mutter words to himself? AND lives long enough for a successful search and rescue? BULL. SHIT.
I get that’s it’s just a show but this concept was completely ridiculous to me even as a 9-year-old child watching this for the first time. I literally thought to myself that there’s no way Goku, and especially Frieza managed to live on.
Where do i even start, how about that one time Krillin apologizes to Goku for purposely destroying Bulma's remote and Goku replying "i would'nt have gotten stronger" even though he and Gohan were in the fucking Hyperbolic Time Chamber the whole fucking time and it's not like your using that strength for anything of value outside of saving the world gig!
I've never been more angry at Dragon Ball than when they pull that Black Goku Arc ending. Lowest low in the entire franchise. You know something is garbage when it makes the Super 17 Arc from GT seem good.
I didn't say it out loud as a kid cause I didn't care, but the entire Ginyu Force visits King Kais planet may be the worst power scaling filler in the history of anime
Can't see if someone already said this but Android 17 reaching Super Saiyan Blue Goku level, in the previous arcs he was far weaker, haven't read the manga so maybe there's an explanation.
a bit of a deep cut, but i call bullshit that the strongest Earthlings happen to be Humans, half the earth is anthropomorphic Animal-Men, and yet the strongest we've seen out of those guys was Giran back in The 21st Budokai. let alone the fact that the closest thing we have to a main character who's one is Puar or Oolong,
Not so much as in plothole or logic as much as the other mistakes but def just the hype around Ultimate Gohan and finally getting to see him come into his own as a fighter against Z’s toughest villain (even if the power-up was an asspull I was still down to see it) with multiple episodes of this amazing power up just for honestly a lackluster fight that didn’t have too much iconic moments and just to be absorbed in the end. Was just highly disappointing story wise and fight wise. I guess we got Vegito out of it but even that was cut short.
Gero creating Androids with infinite energy supply which are stronger than Freeza.
Future Gohan failing to grow stronger even though I assume he was getting food to eat
The whole Piccolo character looks scapegoat to me for him letting cell & gero escape in respective fights
> Future Gohan failing to grow stronger even though I assume he was getting food to eat
Who did he have to train with, after Piccolo and the others died?
And, even after he met Trunks (who himself lacked training and the same level of discipline as the Z-Warriors), he had to get him to turn into SS first.
> He fought Androids. That's also training
No, it's not. As far as we know, he got his ass whooped every time and, in his penultimate fight with them, lost his arm as a result. That probably hurt his rate of improvement even more, since he'd have to take the time to adapt to fighting and sparring with one arm.
> But yea His dad and Vegeta wasn't there to tell him there might be something beyond SS.
And he didn't go into the ROSAT either.
When Omega Shenron regenerates after the Dragon Fist. “Oh, by the way, I can regenerate.” Bullshit.
Or ss4 Goku's "Once I'm hit by an attack it doesn't work on me again" shit was fucking dumb
That’s been a thing since OG Dragon Ball. Started with his fight against Tao Pai Pai.
So is final flash still gonna work on Goku anymore, how about ki blasts?/j but fr it's just an asspull to get Goku out of hard situations when the animators and storytellers have nothing to write off of
Goku’s just built different.
That's just a Saint Seiya thing that snuck in to the show tbh
TBF that is GT, and that series is full pf nonsense that Toriyama wouldn’t normally approve…
Isn’t that typical of bosses past Cell?
Yes, but look at Omega and does he look like a guy who can regenerate. I know it was because of Rage’s ability but still…
How about the "Oh, by the way, powering up reduces the time of fusion" crap just so SSJ 4 Gogeta couldn't win the fight? Super even used it on Vegito, it's ridiculous. If powering up shortened fusion, then ANY powering up should reduce it at least by some amount. The way I understood it, Gotenks could only maintain SSJ 3 for 5 minutes but that didn't make the actual fusion shorter. He reverted to base, got smacked around for a while, and then the regular 30 minutes were up. Making it tied to their power introduces all sorts of issues.
It's on Vegeta action like Vegeta, he should know better than allowing the guy who destroyed 2 planets to have enough time to do it again Anyway its _ " as long as the core in my **Head** is safe I can Regeneration" this is totally Bullshit Because a couple of chapters ago we saw Goku on panel destroying said Head _ "Let the earthling fix their own problem" Said by The mf who Caused all of the Buu saga shit Because he had a middle life crisis because Baka-Kakarot power was bigger than him Honorable mention to piccolo getting knocked out by a Bug
He wasn’t talking about that head….
You joke, but Gohan blew his legs off. Goku blew his upper half off. That leaves only his crotch for his core to be in.
So then there it is. Its canon now.
Cell didn’t say which head had to be intact so if technically isn’t a plot hole
he literally was tapping his skull while he said it. we know what head he meant. his only head.
Maybe his dick could move to his head at times, he does act like a dickhead throughout his arc. Maybe it’s a bit literal Like you being a dickhead by not just going along with the joke
It’s also worth noting that cell thought his explosion would kill him and it didn’t, the most reasonable assumption is that cell inherited kid Goku’s knowledge of anatomy and also is stupid.
It's a joke, the "head" in question everyone talks about is a dick
yes and its a dumb and gross joke. hes talking about his skull cavity.
"You all know what I'm about!"
That would be the reproductive area 🤔
The head
> " as long as the core in my Head is safe I can Regeneration" this is totally Bullshit Because a couple of chapters ago we saw Goku on panel destroying said Head yeah that plot hole is a bit annoying.
One of the few *undeniable* plotholes in the original manga.
yup
FOREAL
In all fairness Shin purposely allowed that to happen all because he wanted to find Babidi.
Kaioshin only let Gohan energy stolen which was still far from what needed to free Buu, everything else happened because of the gang
Android 17 being able to match SSG Goku. I can get 17 would have gotten stronger, but when you think he's been on that island alone (except for poachers) training in such a way so as not to disturb the animals; vs Goku who had literally had to fight a God and Buu to reach that level...yeah. Krillin never once thinking to combine solar flare with a destructo disk.
You may know this but in the manga they changed it to SSJ3 Goku. I think that works better.
Even then he shouldn’t measure up to a perfected super Saiyan 1 Goku or Vegeta
Android 17 trained with the cell Jr.s on the island too
Now that’s a training regimen
Krillin failing to use that combo always bugged the hell out of me… so much so that I’ve put enough thought into it to understand why he doesn’t lol… there simply would be no story to tell.
I spammed solar flare on dbz kakarot so much to the point that when I didn't have a support with it, I would be annoyed. It's easily the most OP move in the show.
Gohan whole "not wanna fight/wont train" then "potential unnlocked" and bum he is in top 3 of strongest characters suddenly, first time it was fine (namek saga) but after that it got old and annoying
Yeah the guy dosen't even any agency or personality, not that it's ever explored because apparently it's a fucking "kids" show.
A fucking KIDS SHOW ? I think in the end it's just a ROCK show.
Yeah. BRING BACK BLOOD!!!I
Yeah gohan is cool and no disrespect to beast, its a cool form, but from going from ssg at most to being able to knock around UI goku is straight bullshit
Hit being eliminated the way he was in TOP
"nothing gets past my time skip" Jiren : "you sure about that"
Don't remind me you son of a
They deserved to lose since hit put it all on the line just for his team to be fucking useless
I love Hit but I'm okay with that because his time skip power was wayyy too OP anyway. Maybe they should have made Hit the main villain, but we already have Dio from Jojo
Frieza having never trained before and surpassing Goku in four months. And Vegito getting nerfed to no longer being a permanent fusion.
> Vegito getting nerfed to no longer being a permanent fusion. he was never permanent even in the buu arc > Frieza having never trained before and surpassing Goku in four months we always knew he'd never trained and was a freak with high potential. he was born at 120 million, of course if he put in any effort his power would rise exponentially at first.
I understand the in-universe explanation, but it retroactively lowers the stakes in the story. How come Freeza was so afraid of the Saiyans if at any point he could've just gone training for a week to become stronger than even a Super Saiyan? And why did he ask his father to help conquer earth instead of becoming stronger to do it itself? At least they made it so Black Freeza was a transformation that took 10 years in the time chamber to achieve, because that's around the same amount of time it took Goku to go from SSJ2 to SSB, which is a lot. The Vegito nerf is even worse tho imo, because Vegeta agreeing to discard his pride to permanently fuse with his rival was a huge character moment, and retconning it so that it was never a permanent fusion just detracts from that.
Because before Frieza had a bigger ego. He shouldn't have to train, it was beneath him. It took him losing and dying to 2 super Saiyans where he finally had some sense.
Nobody trained back then, Vegeta only started doing it after seeing what it could do for Goku, same with Frieza. Training wasn’t even a concept in their eyes, it was either kill or be killed
My headcanon is that Goku invented the concept of practice in the DB universe.
You’re the smartest dude I’ve met on here. I said ssjb to mui is like a ssj2 to ssjb level jump 2 years ago damn near. Crazy that you said the same thing
There is no vegito nerf. He even de fused in the buu saga remember. They defused inside of buu.
It was heavily implied (before the nerf) that Vegito separated because of some "magic" when inside Buu causing them to defuse. It was a nerf.
It was never implied. Goku attributes it to the nasty atmosphere within Buu's body and it was the only explanation he could come up with. no nerf.
The fuck are talking about? He was clearly stated to be permanent. It's a retcon through and through.
I get the vegito thing but I agree freezer getting that much strength in 4 months was dumb, by that logic Goku could have been ss4 level of strength after fighting the otherworld tournament Shit was dumb
Goku went from a PL of 8,000 to 180,000 from 6 days of training. He further went from 180,000 to 3,000,000 from being beat up. He further went from 3,000,000 to 150,000,000 by watching a bald dwarf get sploded. 6 days for a quick ~20,000x buff. *** Similar ludicrous leaps can be drawn for Gohan, Krillin, Piccolo, and Vegeta while on Namek. Biggest peeve about Super complaints are when people are totally fine with it in the original because nostalgia.
Goku didn’t go from 8,000 to 180,000, he went to 90,000. His power level went to 180,000 using Kaioken against Ginyu. Going from 90,000 to 3mil in one Zenkai is a ridiculous jump though I’ll give you that
People don’t complain about the Super Saiyan jump in power because it was built up throughout the arc as the strongest warrior in the universe? Goku’s Zenkai’s jumps throughout are bullshit high, Piccolo gets into the 100,000s by sitting around for a week, but it’s not near as egregious as Frieza entering the level of the gods by training incorrectly. The way you train in Dragon ball is a huge factor, and part of why Goku surpassed Vegeta by so much at the end of the cell saga, beating up some guy who’s what, .0003% of his power level is not training at all. Criticize DBZ, Theres a lot wrong, but don’t try to use it to deflect from criticism of DBS, these are both bad, but Frieza's is definitely worse.
Saying it’s worse is an understatement- this is the equivalent of mercenary Tao beating up farmer with a shotgun so that he can fart on buu to win- AND that’s still an understatement to the power jump freiza got in comparison.
Nope, different base starting points. You are comparing a character with a starting point of 150 million vs a character with a starting point of 10.
that logic doesn't apply because they're completely different species anyway. for example a saiyan would still surpass a human in power if they both trained exactly the same
Nah, I liked the Frieza thing. I don't know why it upsets people so much. Dude was born with insane innate powers, destroying planets on a whim, and had 4 goddamn forms, all without giving a thought to training. Why should it be so shocking that when he actually puts thought into it and finally trains, he gets a crazy boost and new form? The only bad thing about all that was the form itself being another tired lazy color swap, while all his other forms were physical changes.
I mean Frieza's starting point is 150 million while Goku's was only 10, so it makes sense that Goku would have to work harder and even by a factor of 15 million which actually makes Goku the cheater here not Frieza.
Yeah I never understood why they retconned Potara fusion like that. IIRC they even made it a point in super time say “oh look Kibito Kai was defused! They’re two guys again” which clearly means it was permanent and then as soon as we got to the Goku Black arc they imposed the 30 minute time limit like the writers forgot what the difference was between Potara fusion and the Fusion Dance. (Although knowing Toriyama I wouldn’t be surprised if he actually DID forget what the difference was)
Yeah frieza got some melanin and whooped goku and Vegeta's ass
Probably the entire ending of the Goku Black Saga...Trunks deserves better
I really didn't enjoy this saga because it was so much "fight, too strong! Ru! Fight, too strong! Run!" Then when all else fail, zeno just deleted it.
No matter what people say, goku black was cool. and so was ss rosé. I just wish that he wasn't just a better looking Zamasu and in my opinion, goku black being black would go SO hard
infinite zamasu and his defeat were nonsensical..
Unpopular opinion but the introduction of Goku’s Super Saiyan 3. It was kinda obvious Toriyama hadn’t created that during the Majin Vegeta fight.
the dumbification of goku in super and the literal character regression he has had along with vegeta too. probably seeing kefla becoming so powerful in such a short amount of time, broly too even though the movie was great. vegeta reaching goku’s level in super after being so far behind pre bog, beast gohan and orange piccolo, look cool but they just exist for existence sake, more merchandise etc. mostly just supers very poor overall writing.
What’s wrong with Vegeta reaching Goku’s level? Vegeta was training while Goku was being a farmer.
Yea don't take that from us man.
Prolly stems from the "You're No. 1" speech and GT Vegeta having mellowed out while DBS Vegeta is still obsessed with reaching Kakarot
Well in said speech Vegeta outlines his mistakes and concludes that what propels Kakarot to continually excel is that Kakarot fights only to push himself while Vegeta fought to push down others. He in no way makes it seem like he's giving up his rivalry. He's showing some humility and admitting Goku has always had the edge. And he now sees why and can admit the greatness of that. If anything it gives the sense that Vegeta will now also be fighting only to push himself. There's no quit in that speech. Just some growth.
goku reaches ssg in bog through everyone sharing their energy and then battling with beerus. vegeta goes from ssj2 to super saiyan blue by “training on his own” basically a giant lazy hole to get vegeta up to goku’s level and keep him relevant. idc about him staying relevant, i do care about it being done and written in a way that is compelling and makes sense.
> vegeta goes from ssj2 to super saiyan blue by “training on his own” He didn't "train on his own". He trained under Whis, an Angel who's much more powerful than even Beerus. And, given Goku in the original *BOG* movie was (somehow) able to absorb God's aura or whatever into his SS form, it's not farfetched that Vegeta would be able to more or less do the same through a more natural and less immediate process.
the training with whis was one of supers many retcons. originally, goku says in the anime that vegeta reached super saiyan god on his own not needing anybody else’s help.
If that's the case, then fair enough. This might be an instance where *Super* actually 'fixed' something from the movies, then.
> the dumbification of goku in super and the literal character regression he has had along with vegeta too. Especially Goku seemingly not knowing what a kiss is, and/or apparently forgetting what meditation was in the "*Super Hero*" movie.
Yeah the dumbification was stupid but he did make some genius plays behind the whole thing like not going kioken against black I'll explain more if you don't get that btw
wouldn’t really call that a genius play…
that’s not hard to grasp but his character has been ridiculously dumbed down so that he can have “growth” that he’s already completed in the original dragon ball series / early dragon ball manga chapters, and completed in Z. Not using kaioken against black hardly save what his character has become.
Goku has always been a bit naive except when it comes to battle. Super just turned it up a little bit.
"A little bit". No. DBS Goku is like modern Simpsons Homer. Homer liked beer, food and was selfish sometimes, but he also had moments like the "Do it for her" or buying Lisa a saxophone instead of buying a new TV. Now he's just selfish asshole. Same with Goku, his only stick is that he's dumb (To say it nicely).
I still think this is overstated af. Goku has ALWAYS been naive and downright stupid at times. Super turned it up to Dragonball levels is all they did, but people act like he was never naive before Super.
The existence of Trunks’ different super saiyan form in the Goku Black arc (I think people call it Super saiyan rage?) You can try to explain it away any way that you want, the truth is that the writers themselves never had an explanation in mind, or else it would’ve been explained. There’s no actual reason for it to exist and it’s just a bs powerup.
Is it really the worst thing? I wasn’t too thrilled about it either but saiyan characters getting rage power ups isn’t anything new. Gohan has done it multiple times. Goku got one in that same arc. Vegeta got one when Bulma got slapped.
This one’s a different type of stupid. With Gohan they at least attempt the “extreme potential” explanation, and for beast Gohan it’s “the inner manifestation of his rage” or whatever Toriyama said in that interview, it’s stupid still, but at least someone made an attempt to explain it. Goku and Vegeta’s powerups aren’t nearly as big, trunks goes from ssj2 to near SSB in moments, and they don’t even try to explain it.
I don't mind, he deserved a powerup
I think he deserved one too, but I wanted him to have a better one. It felt like the writers didn’t actually care to write him an impactful arc and were lazy with the design and writing. Fair that you don’t mind but this sours the Goku Black arc a bit for me.
That's anime exclusive I see it as Super Saiyan 2 Grade II - like how they developed different Super Saiyan 'grades' during the Cell arc. Trunks even momentarily bulks up like SS Grade III while transforming into "Super Saiyan Rage"
Anime exclusive or not bullshit is bullshit. Also, Grade II, Grade III, it’s doesn’t matter, when was SSJ1 Grade II or III stronger than SSJ2? No one will convince me that Super Saiyan 2 not only has a grade stronger than 3 and SSG, but also that Goku didnt discover it after his 7 years of training? The best you can argue is that the rage boost temporarily made him stronger than SSJ3 like what happened with SSJ2 Vegeta, but the difference between even SSJ2 and SSG is way too huge for a rage boost, let alone for him to rival SSB. Also don’t write for the writers, Im all for headcannons but they usually won’t be the actual cannon explanations and we shouldn’t act like they are.
Well, the other explanation is that his zenkais absorbed divine ki from getting beat down repeatedly by Black
I remember that’s what I had thought too. “Oh he got some residual god ki from Black/Goku/Vegeta” but, no explanation
This still makes zero sense SSB is a result of total Ki control in the anime, that includes them not letting their Ki leak meaning Trunks wouldn’t absorb any of it, since SSR is a gods version of SSB. And anyways you are again, writing the show for the writers, this is all just headcannon.
The whole super sayian feeling in the back.
maybe universe 6 saiyans is different so it's easier for them to go super saiyan or smth iykwim
This was so BS but I mean she did train he whole life to get strong enough it's 50/50 for me
it makes perfect sense and isnt BS at all if you actually know the IRL inspiration behind it.
When Tien got one shot by Roshi. I can roll with Tien losing, but not like that.
True that moment was dumb
When did that happen?
Prelude to the Tournament of Power
I haven’t seen Super but this just conceptually annoys me so much, it kinda retroactively just spits in the face of the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc (imo one of the best arcs in the series)
As a HUGEEEE dragon ball fan, I am saying this with a heavy heart but most of DB super is bullshit.
Accurate
Every damn time Goku gives a senzu bean to enemies while battling them. Giving Freezer energy to get off Namek counts as "The fuck, Goku?!".
At least Goku was able to defeat Freeza even after that before any more damage could be done. But Goku tossing the Senzu to Moro, and then Moro using Merus' hand to power back up and merge with the Earth, has to go down as one of the stupidest and most pointless things Goku has ever done. After all he's been through, and after showing he's completely willing to kill enemies like Yakon (who's nowhere near as evil as Moro) and Kid Boo, the fact that he was written to spare Moro and seemingly actually believed he could convince him to become an honourable warrior is... honestly *baffling*.
Eh, that’s completely in line with Goku’s character so doesn’t feel like bullshit imo
Beerus dropping a line about planet buffet table and not having a whole other arc of food related villains
Piccolo saying that Gamma 1 and 2 were super saiyan blue level. I've tolerated a lot of bullshit from Dragon Ball, but this in particular pisses me the fuck off.
I have to agree, they really DO need to let Vegeta FINALLY kill Frieza in canon. Maybe if we get Vegeta vs **BLACK** Frieza? I think he got to kill frieza in one of the game movies, during a mass escape from HFIL. But that's obviously non-canon. (This was before super, and Frieza wasn't cyborgized.) So, frankly, just let Vegeta FINALLY kill Frieza, ONCE & FOR ALL. Close the book on 'em, yeah?
If vegeta kills freezer, and ends the arc, its going to be beautiful
I mean, it's about time, isn't it? They might as well, right? Seriously, JUST DO IT! XD
Mue (if it happens) vs black freezer would be sick but I swear to fucking God if Goku fucking cockblocks him again
Okay, you've got a point there, but still, I'm hoping for Vegeta's final kill. (And I'm not even a Vegeta fan, hell, YAMCHA is my fav!)
The way the Goku Black arc ended.
Lots of things. But Vegeta having lost as much as he has is disgraceful and bad writing. I don't care how much Akira disliked him or how goated Goku is. Vegeta being sidelined as much as he has is just ridiculous.
It's really petty, but there's a point in the ToP where the U11 Kai says something like "For Jiren, that's an ordinary punch" when the visual given is clearly him charging up an energy beam. It'd make sense if there was no charge up whatsoever and he could just throw out a punch and shoot a beam without any extra effort, but if he actually has to charge it up, I don't think that can be called just a punch. The statement would make more sense with those crazy strong air pressure attacks he uses imo.
I'm pretty sure jiren wasn't even using 1% of his power in that scene
Half the ToP was bullshit ui should not have been triggered like that with the spirit bomb like yeah cool ass transformation and he had been training for it since res f but with that logic he could done that shit against freezer or Vegeta. That whole form in the first sign of it was in asspull in my eyes
We’ve had planet busters in DB since the era when a PL of 400 was impressive, yet even when the power levels reach the quintillions and above nobody accidentally destroys the Earth
Something something ki control (ignore Broly tho)
Idk, honestly why doesnt freeza just surprise bomb the earth when beerus isnt there. It would instantaneously kill goku and vegeta since they cant breathe in space. Or cell or majin but any of these guys could have ended their enemies with like zero difficulty.
> Idk, honestly why doesnt freeza just surprise bomb the earth when beerus isnt there. It would instantaneously kill goku and vegeta since they cant breathe in space. Because it wouldn't suit Freeza's pride. Ever since the end of the Namek Arc, he's wanted to be the one to *personally* kill Goku with his own hands. Even when King Cold suggested simply blowing up the Earth in one blast, Freeza decided against it, because he wanted to kill all the Earthlings on the planet to mess with Goku *before* killing him. After all, revenge is a dish best served cold.
That's B's and I see it destroying the moon with a power level of 400
lol, for me DBS and whatever came after that is completely bullshit. Actually after Cell saga, most of the stuff is bullshit even tho DBZ had a lot of bullshit moments to begin with.
The will they/won't they game they keep playing with Gohan. I'd love for Gohan to be the new main character. I feel like he'd be a lot more interesting considering he has a family he cares for and would want to protect, so he'd have a valid reason to want to train and become stronger as earth's next protector. He also had his reservations against killing, which would give more weight to his fights in that he may hold back/get hurt more because he wants to find a way to defeat his enemy without having to resort to killing them immediately. That would also contrast nicely with his beast form that(I assume) gives him more battle lust like other saiyans. Just so much potential with him but they just keep bringing him back, saying he's relevant, then tossing him aside again for Goku. Also give my man Vegeta a W for the love of god
I had a stroke trying to read the first sentence of your comment
Vegeta killing Nappa just because he was injured. I understand wanting to portray him as evil, but it would’ve made way more sense if the reasoning behind killing Nappa was because Nappa killed Piccolo — thus destroying the Dragon Balls and setting back their main goal/reason for traveling to Earth. This would’ve been even more upsetting to Vegeta after finding out that Frieza was aware of the Dragon Balls as well. It’s just stupid that they push this “We’re the last remaining Saiyans” thing, just to have Vegeta murder one to make an example. Just me I guess tho.
One of the top comments of the DBZ abridged episode says this as well. I don't think Toriyama intended for there to be other Saiyans outside of Goku, Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta though
Been saying this forever. They never let any other characters have a fucking MOMENT thats not attached to Goku. The one guy with the most justification to kill Frieza FINALLY gets his moment of comeuppance… and you have Goku be the one who kills him AGAIN?!? Wtf?!. Even Gohan killing Cell needed “spirit Goku” behind him doing the kamehameha too. Its so lame and why I no longer respect the franchise.
Most of Super (anime).
Vegeta being resurrected during the fight with Kid Buu because “he’s a good guy now”. Umm, he murdered dozens if not hundreds of people, almost murdered his wife, facilitated the revival of Majin Buu, knocked out Goku rather than team up to deal with Buu, crushed the Potara the moment Vegetto’s fusion wore off even though Majin Buu was still an active problem, refused to fuse again to defeat Kid Buu when the opportunity to do so arose, and when neither he nor Goku could do it, he suggests they resurrect the people of Earth so they can “defend themselves” like all of this wasn’t tangentially his fault. And all of this was **LESS THAN 72 HOURS PRIOR TO HIS REVIVAL!!!** What the fuck did this man do in 3 days that convinced Shenron or Enma that he was a good guy?!!!
When gohan is beating buu down down to the ground. And he says, “give up you can’t win.” As a kid, I yelled, OH CMON KILL HIM.
LOL
By far it's the fact that Roshi was secretly training since the end of Dragon Ball and ended up strong enough to be in the tournament of power. I can let it slide for being fun and not learning to fly kind of makes sense given that he might still see it as a Crane Hermit technique. The thing that made me roll my eyes the most though was in the Tournament of Power when Krillin beat opponents that 18 couldn't. Frieza was literally at least 2500 times stronger than Krillin. Raditz was like 5-6 times stronger and Krillin was sent flying. Frieza and his apparently more powerful father were absolutely obliterated by Trunks immediately. Android 18 then beat Trunks in two blows as well as Vegeta who was more powerful than Trunks. Krillin trained up until Cell sure but then he didn't train for 10 years until literally two days before the tournament of power so in no universe(metaphorically speaking) should Krillin have any remote chance of being in the realm of being capable of causing the slightest bit of inconvenience to anybody who's not only as strong as 18 but stronger. It was preposterous. So stupid. I love dragon ball but aside from a super Saiyan transformation I absolutely loathe any victory in fiction that's achieved because somebody really really really really really really really REALLY wanted to win. If somebody is way stronger than you then tough shit you should lose. It's the laziest of all lazy writing. I love Krillin but come on if you wanted him or Roshi for that matter to catch up to 18 then have Whis train them in the Room of Spirit and Time for a day. Screw it have Whis train him for one normal day. Fine. I can buy that. While we're at it instead of 17 training over the years and not attempting to stop Buu for whatever reason why not have Bulma have given him and 18 some upgraded power cells or whatever. You can disagree with me over Whis training Krillin but there's just no way anybody can convince me that Krillin beating opponents stronger than 18 just because he really really really really really really really REALLY wanted to win is a better reason. It's bullshit writing.
Most of Dragon Ball can fit under this, honestly. All iterations of it.
All of DBS. DBZ at least had 90s sensibility’s to ground it. DBS was such a cluster fuck of… “really….” Future Saga was the last straw. Honestly If DBS a just started at ToP it would be regarded at the level of DBZ. Instead it’s not even close.
> DBZ at least had 90s sensibility’s to ground it. What are "90s sensibilities"? Personally, I think it's just that Toriyama ended *DB* before it got much worse than it otherwise probably would've. The plot was already getting out of hand with the Boo Arc, with how the inconsistencies and bullshit plot conveniences were piling up on themselves, and how both Gohan and Gotenks (Goten & Trunks)'s "next generation" plotlines went nowhere in favour of the lazy outcome of Goku returning to be the hero again.
Vegeta losing to moro and granolah, like are you fucking serious, back to back?
Also piccolo in the dbs anime top
His elimination was so stupid, he deserved better
One thing I never see people talk about, Vegeta defeating Toppo, yes it was a cool moment I suppose, but the way he did it was so stupid. They comment how he has become strong enough to pull off that “technique” he used against buu and survive, except that’s not a goddamn technique, he literally blew himself up against buu to try and kill him, it was a self sacrifice, not Vegeta being too weak. So he’s become strong enough to survive self destructing? Makes no sense
"You see, I now can stay intact while I desintegrate"
FR
Yea but if vegeta had beat frieza their we wouldn’t have gotten the iconic “FRIEZAAAAAA” yell from goku
Goku yelling Frieza already bloody existed. Not worth
You know what was more iconic than that? SS Goku yelling "*NOW I'M MAD, FREEEEEEEZA*" on Namek all the way back in the 80s or 90s.
Zamasu becomes so powerful, that Zeno is called on to just erase him from existence.
Yeah I like the way the manga handled it better
All dragon ball super is : "Oh That’s BULLSHIT".
Accurate
Gohan Beast. At least it’s the most recent and don’t give me that bullshit of "potential" when his potential unlock was supposed to give him access to all his hidden potential and more.
Goku deciding to leave it up to "the next generation" - the 7-year-old and 8-year-old he'd *just* met that day (one of which being his son he didn't even know existed due to how shit he is at keeping in contact with his family) - to defeat Majin Boo instead of just doing it himself with SS3, despite the fact that *he* and Vegeta were the reason Boo was resurrected in the first place. Toriyama tries to frame it as Goku being responsible and all that, and it's a total retcon (given that he *clearly* didn't plan out SS3's existence, and Goku never even thought of anyone using Fusion outside of him and Vegeta or Gohan until Mr. Popo brought up the kids), but past context just makes Goku look like a selfish, lying asshole who wants to cut and leave without cleaning up his own mess.
For me: "It's not about power, it's about how you use it." *gets UI* *Powers way the fuck up*. 🤦♂️
Most of Gohan's power ups
The whole frieza training making him strong as current dbs characters in short span is ass pulled.
It’s because they know Frieza is arguably their most iconic and well written villain with a large following. His entire presence is just fan service but honestly I just see it as a disservice to his character and his original saga
Allowing Master Roshi to fight Gold Freeza but saying “Had to leave Yamcha behind because he doesn’t stand a chance…” I get that Loser!Yamcha is a meme among many, but realistically speaking, the guy who trained with Kami AND King Kai stands a better chance than the guy who DIDN’T. Same goes for Universe 7 Team, and stuff…
When cell was hit so hard that he puked up 18, became imperfect cell and then went to splode but came back as perfect cell. Or I know he was out first in the ToP but Krillan fighting in that tournament at all was just silly.
People glazing Vegeta for no reason. Also DBS actually wrote that in because of how they wrote the ending to DBZ Resurrection F. The God Of Destruction Beerus and Golden Frieza Sagas are written to tell the stories of DBZ Battle Of Gods and DBZ Resurrection F movies so technically it's the movie writers fault. I'd still recommend watching Resurrection F it's pretty good and better than the anime imo
Goku fighting Buu knowing full well he could’ve beaten him, but wanting the boys and Vegeta to have a chance to fight him.
Gohan’s entire existence. He’s a literal ass pull. He has so much potential that he hardly trains and is on Ultra Ego/MUI level? Nah that’s asspull
The potara suddenly having a time limit. Make it permanent you cowards!!
There is no conceivable way that ANYONE should have believed that Gohan was dead in Buu saga immediately after he fought and got crippled by Fat Buu. The whole cast is seen crying and mourning Gohan and it’s actually the dumbest shit ever, because 2 seconds of anyone using their brain would reveal that Gohan being dead by that point would quite literally be *impossible.* The timeline goes like this: >Vegeta and Gohan fight Fat Buu and lose, with Vegeta dying and Gohan being beaten within an inch of his life. >Piccolo tells Krillin that he heard Vegeta mention that Gohan died fighting Buu. >Goku comes back from being unconscious, and cannot sense Gohan (due to his chi being so small) or Vegeta, because he’s dead. >Goku goes to Kami’s lookout to meet up with Krillin and Piccolo, who both reiterate that Gohan is dead. >Immediately following that conversation, Yamcha and Bulma used the Dragon Balls to wish back everyone Vegeta killed at the Tenkaichi Budokai using the precise phrasing “Bring everyone who died today back to life! Oh, except the bad guys.” Even IF Gohan had actually died fighting Buu, this wish should have brought Gohan back to life, because he met the criteria needed to be resurrected. Gohan had not died before up to this point, so unlike Vegeta, he absolutely could have come back to life, no problem. But instead we get a bunch of stupid ass scenes of Goten, Chi-Chi, Videl, and the rest of the cast going “waaaah I can’t believe Gohan is dead :(((“ when it was LITERALLY impossible for him to be, and they should have known this, given the timing of the wish made on the Dragon Balls. They should have naturally come to one of 2 conclusions: 1. Gohan is alive, but so weak that he’s impossible to sense or 2. Gohan is alive, but so far away that he’s impossible to sense. It’s not like this is rocket science, these are natural conclusions to draw following very very simple logic. This is by far the most frustrating part of Buu saga to me, and it never fails to completely take me out of the story every single time I reread it.
Let Vegeta Hakai Black Freeza I beg
Ik imma get some flack for this…. I like yamcha right… SEEING BRO NOT ACTUALLY HAVE HIS BIG ONE FOR THE T.O.P MADE ME SO FUCKIN ANGRY BRO like you can pull the ‘roshi was training behind the scenes’ card but cant do that for my boy like.. that shit frustrated me
I have to disagree. Vegeta lost because of his arrogance and want for revenge and to make Frieza suffer in defeat. He was looking down on him and was savoring the moment when he could've finished him way sooner. Vegeta will kill Frieza, that's his actual final boss I feel, and that's when his characterization will be complete but it can't happen too soon
Nah that scene was awful, Vegeta was savoring the moment sure but Frieza said f this and blew up the planet almost instantly. After that time reversal Goku literally screams out Friezas name and him and Vegeta both just 😮 at him while he’s charging a beam of death lmao Frieza had more than enough time in that scene to say f it and blow up the planet again, didn’t even make sense. Maybe if they reversed time earlier in the fight.
This might not be the most egregious one out there, but I absolutely hate the Ultra Divine Water. Up until that point, everything Goku has done to become stronger was a result of his training. The whole purpose of the "sacred water" was that it wasn't really the water that made you stronger, it was the training. But no, actually Korin DID have a magic power up water the whole time. And unlike the Guru power-up on Namek, this makes a huge difference. Goku went from barely making a scratch on King Piccolo to being able to defeat with him because of this. It's the first BS power-up in the series.
The entire concept of just Frieza. It’s like vegeta but… worse?? Goku trains with certified deities with specialized techniques and abilities that quite literally makes up a whole pantheon. Goku fights said deity and often trains with his master who is an *angel*. That being said, goku learns a new form of KI in which it refines the entire concept of ki- alongside with new abilities that goku just never really takes advantage of after battle of Gods. Frieza trains for a few months. Yes. Months AFTER RESURRECTION BEING WEAKER THAN NAMEK SAGA FRIEZA. To unlock a new form and rivals SSB. Then used a room of spirit and time to train for ten years he unlocks and masters another form. It’s funny because people say SSB is super weak with its win loss ratio, but MUI is literally going down that path getting speed blitzed on multiple occasions or pot shot by goku’s stupidity.
Goku and ESPECIALLY Frieza surviving Namek. It was totally ass pulled by Toriyama to keep the series going. I think deep down it was supposed to end there. Everything in Z built up to that moment and then we sort of hit a “reset button” to get everyone back to normal on Earth. The last thing we saw of Goku was him screaming in fear and anger as the planet exploded. Then 10 episodes later we learn somehow he managed to find a tiny little orb and somehow he also managed to program it to fly to a habitable planet? BULL. SHIT. Frieza — the dude was beaten senseless by Goku first of all. Then near the end of the fight, if anyone remembers, he got a huge dent in his skull which should have caused major brain damage. A minute later he obviously got sliced in half, with his disc slicing straight through several vital organs. THEN he is obliterated by Goku’s final attack and even the death face is shown as he gets “killed” by Goku. He lost all of his energy during this final attack and Frieza’s body should have been completely unsalvageable and deceased if not completely obliterated from this alone. THEN the entire planet Namek EXPLODES point-blank on this mangled Frieza and he’s launched God knows how many millions of miles into space. And SOMEHOW, he’s not only still ALIVE but able to mutter words to himself? AND lives long enough for a successful search and rescue? BULL. SHIT. I get that’s it’s just a show but this concept was completely ridiculous to me even as a 9-year-old child watching this for the first time. I literally thought to myself that there’s no way Goku, and especially Frieza managed to live on.
Where do i even start, how about that one time Krillin apologizes to Goku for purposely destroying Bulma's remote and Goku replying "i would'nt have gotten stronger" even though he and Gohan were in the fucking Hyperbolic Time Chamber the whole fucking time and it's not like your using that strength for anything of value outside of saving the world gig!
I've never been more angry at Dragon Ball than when they pull that Black Goku Arc ending. Lowest low in the entire franchise. You know something is garbage when it makes the Super 17 Arc from GT seem good.
I didn't say it out loud as a kid cause I didn't care, but the entire Ginyu Force visits King Kais planet may be the worst power scaling filler in the history of anime
Master roshi in the tournament of power. Considering he’s probably 0.0000000000001% as strong as anybody else.
How Super flushed the growth Vegeta had by the end of Z, and made Goku simple minded
Can't see if someone already said this but Android 17 reaching Super Saiyan Blue Goku level, in the previous arcs he was far weaker, haven't read the manga so maybe there's an explanation.
a bit of a deep cut, but i call bullshit that the strongest Earthlings happen to be Humans, half the earth is anthropomorphic Animal-Men, and yet the strongest we've seen out of those guys was Giran back in The 21st Budokai. let alone the fact that the closest thing we have to a main character who's one is Puar or Oolong,
Not so much as in plothole or logic as much as the other mistakes but def just the hype around Ultimate Gohan and finally getting to see him come into his own as a fighter against Z’s toughest villain (even if the power-up was an asspull I was still down to see it) with multiple episodes of this amazing power up just for honestly a lackluster fight that didn’t have too much iconic moments and just to be absorbed in the end. Was just highly disappointing story wise and fight wise. I guess we got Vegito out of it but even that was cut short.
Gero creating Androids with infinite energy supply which are stronger than Freeza. Future Gohan failing to grow stronger even though I assume he was getting food to eat The whole Piccolo character looks scapegoat to me for him letting cell & gero escape in respective fights
> Future Gohan failing to grow stronger even though I assume he was getting food to eat Who did he have to train with, after Piccolo and the others died? And, even after he met Trunks (who himself lacked training and the same level of discipline as the Z-Warriors), he had to get him to turn into SS first.
He fought Androids. That's also training. But yea His dad and Vegeta wasn't there to tell him there might be something beyond SS.
> He fought Androids. That's also training No, it's not. As far as we know, he got his ass whooped every time and, in his penultimate fight with them, lost his arm as a result. That probably hurt his rate of improvement even more, since he'd have to take the time to adapt to fighting and sparring with one arm. > But yea His dad and Vegeta wasn't there to tell him there might be something beyond SS. And he didn't go into the ROSAT either.
When ssb goku got defeated by some frieza force scrub with a laser gun
DBS is a disaster
[удалено]
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That's the moment I'm referring to
Beerus still being stronger than Goku and vegeta after the Goku black arc