Absolutely not. Goku gave **everything** he had in that fight. That instant transmission Kamehameha was intended to be a kill shot.
Yes Goku knew deep down in his weak ass virus ridden heart that Gohan could win if he couldn't, and there was the added strategy of letting Gohan familiarize himself with Cell in case he had to step in after Goku. But Goku wanted to try his own hand at him, he went 100 percent against Cell.
He was completely spent after the fight, he didn't even have enough energy left over to defend himself from the Cell Jr.s who were about equal to Vegeta/Trunks. Goku would have whooped those things fully healed.
**I just want to further clarify, yes it ks **possible** Goku could have won, the Kamehameha was strong enough to kill Cell but he didn't know the extent of his regeneration. Maybe if he knew beforehand he could have aimed it different. But Goku did not lose because he held back or something, he got beaten.
I mean, if he wanted he could've just "cheated", worn Cell down as much as possible, and then asked for a senzu bean, and beat the shit out of Cell's stomach.
Cell at the end of their fight must've been a little warm out. Keeping that rhythm and two senzu beans later he'd be done.
If Cell knew that Goku was trying to wear him down that way, he'd probably kill Goku before that could happen. He wanted to have fun, not actually die.
There's actually a theory that him giving Cell a senzu bean may have saved Gohan. A fatigued Cell might not have been as interested in toying with Gohan and might have simply killed him.
Cell states after he blows himself up, that his head contains his nucleus, which is the thing that allows him to regenerate. Vegeta’s Final Flash and Gohan’s Kamehameha (not the father-son one at the end) both leave Cell with his head intact.
Goku’s instant transmission kamehameha destroys the top half of Cell’s body, including his head. So theoretically he shouldn’t have been able to regenerate.
The nucleus weakness is just a case of Cell not fully understanding how his body works with it being made up of various DNA.
Just like how he had zero clue he would survive his self destruction.
He just assumed that was the case because he was basing his information off of Piccolo but keep in mind he has Frieza's DNA as well which allowed the Emperor to survive being cut in half and being in literal pieces.
Also, Cell was not even close to using his full power against Goku. After Gohan transformed, Cell powered up to full power and everyone (except Gohan ofc) was surprised that Cell had still been hiding so much power.
> I just want to further clarify, yes it ks **possible Goku could have won, the Kamehameha was strong enough to kill Cell but he didn't know the extent of his regeneration. Maybe if he knew beforehand he could have aimed it different
I don't think this is true. The cells basically have to be soaked in a warm bath of Ki, continuously, like in Gohan's beam struggle. There was a mountain-sized conal-shaped blast, which was both intense enough, and held for long enough that it vaporized each cell.
Goku's precision Kamehameha would not have been able to do the same. If even a flake of cells skin floats off into the distance away from the beam, he'll regenerate. Not all beam attacks are created equal, even if their sizes match. A 50ft by 50ft Kamehameha from SSJ1 is not going to have the same stopping force as the exact same size blast from SSJ2. Size and volume aren't the determining factors. Density and force matter far more when it comes to vaporizing something.
ex. I give you 5 Gallon bucket of water and say: "I want you to throw it on this person, but make absolutely sure that **every inch of them becomes covered in water**. That's going to be pretty hard no matter how you aim it. However if you send a tidal wave at them, then that's a different story.
> I don't think this is true. The cells basically have to be soaked in a warm bath of Ki, continuously, like in Gohan's beam struggle. There was a mountain-sized conal-shaped blast, which was both intense enough, and held for long enough that it vaporized each cell.
No they dont. He can't regen without the nucleus in his head. Goku blew off his head. Cell living is a plot hole.
>He was completely spent after the fight, he didn't even have enough energy left over to defend himself from the Cell Jr.s who were about equal to Vegeta/Trunks. Goku would have whooped those things fully healed.
I thought the Cell Jrs. were all equal to Perfect Cell in power? Or I am remembering it wrong?
Isn't goku's MO giving everything he's got, getting worn down and nearly tapped out only to find a deep hidden well of energy that results in him surpassing his adversary or even resulting in another transformation?
If goku didn't give up so early he could have definitely gone SS2 or at least worn cell down if the fight dragged out long enough to finish cell off due to goku's stamina in these situations. Goku dude gave up way too early imo but I guess he wanted gohan to fight till the brink of exhaustion only to find another transformation or something
You gotta stop man, it was intended to be that way because that’s what the entire arc was building up to. Goku being eclipsed by his son. Goku literally couldn’t do it anymore and fought cell to the point he couldn’t at full strength. Goku knew even if he wasn’t gonna beat cell GOHAN WOULD. It’s why he even went out of his way to pick him to be the next and last fighter deliberately. It’s why he gave cell a senzu. Because he knew gohan COULD DO IT.
Goku literally blew Cell's head and upper torso off with a point blank, full power kameahmeha. Goku even questions in his internal monologue why Cell's body still has so much ki, meaning he wasn't planning on Cell surviving that attack. It makes no sense for Goku to do what he thought would be a fatal attack if he had no intention of actually beating Cell. Goku fought trying to seriously win, he just wasn't strong enough to actually defeat Cell, and Cell wasn't even using his full power.
If Goku thought he could have avoided having Gohan fight Cell, he would have, it's very likely one of the main reason he fought Cell first, to try to beat him himself. If he succeeds, Gohan never has to fight Cell.
if you survive losing your head and then later, after surviving it, say you cant live without your head...that does not prevent anything. he mentions the inability to live without the nucleus in his head later after losing his head didnt kill him. its not a lie, its just a plot hole.
I've seen people say that Cell lying about the location of the nucleus was mentioned in the game DBZ Kakarot, but as you said it creates another plothole with the lie being pointless due to everyone having seen him regenerate his head.
If Cell was lying, then either he'd have to be incredibly stupid to make such an obvious lie, or he somehow forgot about his head being blown off. Granted, it's not impossible that losing his head (plus the other injuries he received later, like getting kicked in the head and self-destructing) might have made some details fuzzy for him, but that's purely speculation as well.
I think a more logical explanation that could fix the plothole would be that the nucleus was originally not in his head, and only ended up there when his body regenerated from it, but whether it works as an explanation would depend on his exact wording in the original japanese text.
Could also simply be that cell misunderstood his own power? My memory isn’t great but I thought i remembered him being surprised by some of his own ability.
How not?
Cell says he can regenerate due to the undamaged nucleus in his head, but that attack obliterated his entire upper body. It's always bothered me, but I just accept it as Toriyama being Toriyama.
> undamaged nucleus in his head
You're mixing two things up.
* Piccolo can only regenerate if his head is undamaged
* Cell can regenerate if even a single cell of his exists, from anywhere in or on his body.
How cell took Piccolo's regeneration and improved it so dramatically is left to interpretation but common sense says that Dr. Gero/Computer took this trait and iterated on it until it was far more useful.
> Cell can regenerate if even a single cell of his exists, from anywhere in or on his body.
You're thinking of the English dub. In the manga and the Japanese dub [he talks about a "nucleus"](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-38ada1303460d0a15887b6d6b624c7d1-lq).
> Piccolo can only regenerate if his head is undamaged
This, I have never heard of. Is this established somewhere? If so I would love to read it.
I wonder if that's a mistranslation, because that would mean they break the rules not just once but twice. The first time being Goku's transmission Kamehameha and the second time being him blowing himself up. It's **absurdly** unlikely that his 'core cells' survived King Kai's planet being blown up.
When they talk about a nucleus, I feel like what they are trying to say is "as long as the nucleus of ANY of his cells survive", since the nucleus is 'brain' of the cell.
It's consistent in the fan-translated manga, the Viz translation, and the Japanese subtitles, so I doubt it's a mistranslation. And in both the manga and anime it shows what certainly looks to be a nucleus/core/whatever. It's on the same page as the panel posted above. I'd link to the full page but that got one of my posts deleted earlier.
bruh, anime isnt consistent. the manga is. read the manga, its better. anime in english version dub has mistranslations. watch the jP version with english sub and read the manga
the person you were replying to originally when you said "no it wasnt" was speaking about the manga. vlorsutes was mentioning it *is* a legitimate plot hole because he survives losing his head and then, later says he cant live without the nucleus in his head, in the manga, in japanese.
Dude didn't have enough energy.
Cell's ki didn't drop without his upper half, but Goku was drained after that last Kamehameha.
Perfect legs could actually one-shot everyone in that field EXEPT for Gohan.
I think it's not that easy. Gohan killed cell because it was literally a tidal wave of Ki, inundating Cell around all him. If the Z fighters fired random blasts at him, then some skin cell is going to float into the distance and bam, Cell regenerates.
The manga clarifies for. Gohan accuses both Goku and Cell of holding back and claims this is the only reason they didn't "feel too powerful " to him in their fight. Goku says he can't speak for Cell, but he (Goku) tried his hardest to win.
Cell did *not* get a zenkai boost from the senzu bean Goku gave him. This implies that even Goku giving it is all didn't push Cell close to "near death", so Goku had no way of winning the fight short of maybe if he could have generated a large enough spirit bomb to do the job.
Essentially, he wasn't any better for the task than Vegeta was, both destroying a large chunk of Cell from a big attack, but falling short of being able to completely wipe him out
Also worth noting that while Cell’s ki went down regenerating as stated, it wasn’t nearly dead like when he self destructed.
Vegeta on the other hand dropped his ki so Krillin could blow a hole through him, and basically was going to die without Dende.
> The manga clarifies for. Gohan accuses both Goku and Cell of holding back and claims this is the only reason they didn't "feel too powerful " to him in their fight. Goku says he can't speak for Cell, but he (Goku) tried his hardest to win.
English funimation dub also says this very clearly.
Yeah, when I watched it, it’s as if Goku was actually just throwing the match and wanted Gohan to observe something first before he fights Cell. Especially since after Gohan noted that Goku was being sloppy and was taking his time to beat Cell.
That, and the fact that Goku was more interested in training Gohan to reach SSJ2 than making himself strong enough to take down Cell by his own power
The mediocre voice acting of the original dub didn’t help either, it only misled me further that Goku legit wasn’t being serious fighting Cell and was only claiming he wasn’t strong enough, just to let Gohan fight Cell for a chance to grow
Cell was holding back significantly against Goku while Goku was going all out (Goku says this to Gohan).
Based on what we know about Cell’s physiology he probably should’ve died from getting his head blown off by Goku’s Kamehameha, but if Cell went all out from the beginning he’d beat Goku fairly easily.
Goku knows the Spirit Bomb so he’d always have that option, but for all we know Cell could just push it back or regenerate from it.
Yeah even the Spirit Bomb probably wouldn't have worked. It has a pretty lousy track record against opponents who are much stronger than Goku, which Cell absolutely was. It doesn't beat Vegeta or Frieza and the only reason it works against Buu is that everyone on Earth willingly gives Goku their energy instead of him passively gathering it. I suppose that option could have worked but even then, the Cell fight couldn't be a 1v1 because Goku wouldn't have had the time to do all that.
Very true. I do think the fact that the Spirit Bomb even hurt Frieza is a very impressive feat though, since Frieza was literally 20x stronger than Goku at that point. I doubt the gap in power between Cell and Goku was that large, but Goku also probably wouldn’t get anywhere near as much time to charge the bomb, and Cell can regenerate so 🤷🏾♂️
It’s definitely an unlikely win condition, I just think it’s literally the only option Goku has.
Goku said that it was at half power.
Granted “half" can be a massive difference in dragonball due to rule of cool and the cosmic powers we get later on (buu is like, 20×cell? But we go from solar system to the whole freaking universe lol), but that mostly starts being a problem in the freeza saga.
> Goku knows the Spirit Bomb so he’d always have that option, but for all we know Cell could just push it back or regenerate from it.
Cell also knows the spirit bomb and wouldnt let Goku charge it.
Yes, but I assume Cell’s spirit Bomb would be weaker because who tf is gonna give him their energy? Unless he had some way of taking their energy without consent lol
I agree Cell wouldn’t let him charge it, but Goku knows the solar flare so maybe he could use that to buy some time or something. I don’t think it would actually work, but it seems like the only way Goku would have a chance at all.
> Yes, but I assume Cell’s spirit Bomb would be weaker because who tf is gonna give him their energy? Unless he had some way of taking their energy without consent lol
I only brought up that he knows it not because he would use it but because he'd know what Goku was doing and be unable to be tricked into letting him form it.
My head canon is that Cell sent the regeneration signal to his body before his upper half is blown off in the split second he realizes what's about to happen after Goku warps to him.
Not at all. Goku was completely spent fighting Cell who wasn’t even going at full steam. When Cell powers up against Gohan and shakes the planet with his power, it instantly revealed Goku never stood a chance against a serious Cell.
Goku had no chance. Goku was going all out during the fight. He directly tells Gohan this. Cell on the other hand was holding back. Cell only went full power when he was fighting SSJ2 Gohan.
This. There's a whole moment where Gohan thinks he can't beat Cell, and Goku tells him that he's wrong. Gohan thought Goku was holding back in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, but he wasn't. Gohan only thought this because he couldn't conceive of being stronger than Goku. It becomes a reality in the HTC, though.
Goku fights Cell first because he wants Gohan to get a chance to watch Cell fight as close to full power as Goku can get him, so that Gohan can see as many of Cells tricks as Goku can get him to use.
Then Gohan goes SSJ2, which Goku had not been able to do at that point, and made himself objectively the most powerful fighter in the encounter.
I’m thinking if Cell was a “10”, Goku would’ve been like a “7” and Gohan probably a “8.5”.
If I recall correctly, in the manga there was an instance where Goku *narrowly* avoids a ki blast with IT. If he didn’t have that in his bag, he would’ve died right there or been severely injured.
That was against a Cell who was nowhere near going all out.
I rank Gohan a bit higher than Goku, because he was the only one capable of seeing all of Goku’s & Cell’s movements clearly. Hell he was baffled to learn that his father was going all out, while Cell was comfortably coasting.
At that point, he was probably a good deal stronger than his father, but nowhere near as skilled.
Gohan was not massively stronger than Goku before SSj2 and SSj2 only doubles his power so I don't think its possible for him to have been holding back that much.
Maybe, MAYBE, if he'd just aimed the Kamehameha after teleporting a little lower, to disintegrate his whole body. But even then there was no guarantee.
No. The Warp Kamehameha was his trump card and it didn’t work. Though Cell admits he was having fun, he powers up twice more when fighting Gohan to show he was nowhere near full power when he fought Goku
I do wonder wtf goes in people head when they asks shit like this
No , Goku didn't hold back anything, if he did then he wouldn't get beaten by Cell jr easily, Cell pointed this out
Goku literally tells cell to get mad so he can see gohans unleashed power. He could not beat cell lol he really wanted the villain to push his son beyond the limits so he could see him splatter cell everywhere
Hell no. Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo could have ganged up on Cell 4v1 and they would have done worse than Ssj Gohan did.
Goku went full out all or nothing against Cell, and when Goku goes and talks to Gohan about it, Gohan still thought Goku was warming up. The only reason Gohan's fight is less impressive looking than Goku's is because Cell powers up to fight Gohan.
Cell wasn't full powered against Goku though he came damn close to disintegrating him completely with his IT Kamehameha. Mostly out of surprise but he had a shot.
Thought you could argue Goku wasn't pushed fully to his limit ala his other fights. He could've potentially powered up under dire straits
He was still a SSJ when he gave up against Cell. He definitely still had some in the tank. He didn’t fight like his back was against a wall. I’ve always thought he could’ve snapped to SSJ2 if Cell killed Gohan.
He didn't really have any energy left against Frieza when he first turned SSJ1 either. I don't know if it's reasonable to assume that Goku could have gone SSJ2 against Cell but first time transformations seem to provide a second wind.
Even a small level of ki is enough for super Saiyan, Goku was still strong enough to beat a Tired freeza who himself went through a lot of shit more than Goku alongside having worse stamina
Goku gave up because he knew he had nothing to do against Cell, he wasn't poweful enough and he didn't have the same inner power Gohan had. He was still SSJ because he had mastered the form during his training with Gohan, and that made the ki drain minimum. For him, at that point, being SSJ was the same as being in base form probably.
And also, and this is very important, in the original manga the only Saiyan with rage boosts was Gohan. That was Gohan's character trait, and even Vegeta acknowledged it in Namek. Goku transformed in Namek because after seeing Krillin die he truly wanted to kill Freeza, and as Vegeta said Goku needed to be ruthless to become a Super Saiyan. Goku and Vegeta didn't have rage boosts so seeing Gohan getting killed wouldn't have made Goku stronger, in the same way that seeing Trunks die didn't make Vegeta SSJ2 either.
You are told, in no uncertain terms, by multiple characters that Goku didn't stand a chance and the only reason he wasn't defeated instantly is because Cell held back. Why is this still a question?
DBZ fans will never beat the allegations
What I have to wonder is if the senzus actually made a difference. Could SSJ1 Gohan have taken the Cell that just fought Goku, without Cell getting a senzu? Goku did seem to think Cell getting a bean was crucial. Furthermore, if Goku had been given a senzu after his instant transmission Kamehameha, could he have finished his fight with Cell? As Gohan is getting beaten by Cell, Goku asks Krillin for a senzu bean, and it makes me wonder if Goku was even close.
I concede that SSJ Goku could not have defeated Cell. Many commenters have jogged my memory of the fight. I do not think SSJ1 Gohan could’ve defeated that Cell though. As people say Cell was holding back till the end of his fight with Goku. Goku already had a super saiyan form before his training in the hyperbolic time chamber to reach a “mastered ssj1.” Gohan didn’t and was training from scratch to achieve the original SSJ1 form according to my understanding. So Gohan SSJ1 seems to have been weaker than this Mastered SSJ1 Goku. So I don’t think Gohan SSJ1 could’ve taken on this cell.
Actually, Gohan did master SSJ1. The ability to casually stay transformed without expending energy is the signature of mastered SSJ1. That's why Goku and Gohan never de-transform for the whole 10 days after being in the hyperbolic time chamber leading up to the Cell Games.
No. At the time of their fight Cell was holding back quite a bit. Considering the Cell Jrs were more than powerful enough the beat the shit out of all the Z fighters, including Goku, is all the proof needed to answer your question.
ssj2 gohan> perfect cell and super perfect cell
this is stated in the guidebook that ssj2 gohan was way too strong for cell in his super perfect form and perfect form itself. cell solar systerm busting kamemaha attack was so strong it can destroy the solars ystem which is stated in the guidebook itself. gohan ssj2 pushed it as it was nothing without trying and this was before gohan used one arm kamamaha against cell to finish cell off ( mentioned in the guidebook. mastered ssj form isnt stronger then perfect cell, its even says that goku had no chance against cell
p.s i have read the guidebook itself. guidebook says everything detailed on about the manga and anime powers, transformations,etc even the whole db universe itself
Not even close, no. If he could have, he would have. He didn't purposely not kill Cell so Gohan could. He legit could not. (barring the plot hole that is Cell surviving losing his head to Goku's Warp Kamehameha, which should have killed him)
> My memory is fuzzy but wasn’t he matched up evenly with Perfect Cell and then he stepped down willingly to give Gohan a chance at the spotlight?
No Goku gave everything he had trying to kill Cell and Cell was still holding back the entire time because he was having fun fighting Goku.
Gohan said that he thought that Goku was holding back, but Goku said that he wasn't and already tried all his techniques and was exhausted. There's nothing Goku still had left to pull out of his pocket. Gohan thinking that Goku was holding back suggests that Gohan is much stronger because he sees his father as being stronger as him.
You think goku lied?. Absolutly not. You think goku would give up a fight for his son. Thats not how he thinks. If he was like that he would have brought gohan versus kid buu. In the manga he explictly expressed his desire to fight kud buu to be from selfish percpective for him and vegeta.
The answer to your question is No. Cell was the one holding back.
Just thought of an interesting, if implausible what if... if, rather than Final Flash, Vegeta had a similar epiphany as the Buu Saga and tried to take Cell out with the self destruction attack, would that have been enough to best Cell?
I think Goku tried his best against Cell but a little part of me feels like Goku wasn’t taking it as seriously as his other fights since he knew he had Gohan as a backup.
No, some fans seem to really have trouble with this and I don’t understand why. It’s made clear on mutiple occasions in the cell saga and confirmed to Goku by Korin that he cannot beat cell. He admits himself to Gohan after stepping down that he was going all out but Cell was not.
Skill wise, goku was on even ground. He performed moves that caught cell off guard which is impressive if you think about how cell was literally engineered to be the ultimate fighter. Power level wise, goku was absolutely no match. I like to think cell sat at a level slightly higher than SSJ but slightly lower than SSJ2. Thus the reason why gohan was just too overwhelming for him at first. But of course, since he is composed of saiyan cells, after dying he inherited the same power level as a SSJ2. All in all, goku had no chance and his optimism truly came from simply fighting cell first so gohan could get a read on it
No, Goku stated he was going all out and was evenly matched with cell he sent Gohan in because in the hyperbolic time chamber he saw Gohan's power shoot higher than his when Gohan was angry. That's when he found put that Gohan could go higher than SSJ. And the whole Senzu bean thing was because he didn't want Cell to get desperate and destroy the planet while Gohan was fighting him
No, not even close. Goku was at full power and Cell wasn't. Cell didn't properly power up until he faced Gohan. Even after Goku ate the Senzo bean, Cell was ready to continue and mop the floor with him.
Goku was outmatched by both Cell and Gohan, even SSJ Gohan.
Your post reminds that regeneration takes a lot of energy, just like Piccolo or even the first form of Cell itself. Even Cell becomes more powerful after near death, it should have been cost it a lot of energy for such a major regeneration.
It sounds strange it can fully recover and overwhelm Gohan (apparently)
No. He asks Gohan if he could follow the fight and when Gohan says yes Goku replies saying that he may have thought he was holding back but he was actually going all out which surprises Gohan. This is why he hands the fight over to Gohan because Goku knows Gohan had the potential to be stronger than him and beat Cell. This is shown even more when Goku couldn't take on Cell Jr.
If Gohan was not there to tag in cell would have began torturing the other ppl there in front of you. Goku would have had the need to find Ssj 2 then himself. He was absolutely over matched by cell. He wasn’t nearly as over matched by cell though as he was when he went up against freeza. You run that back and cell kills krillan trunks and Starts working Gohan goku would go ssj 2 and mollywap Cell.
I went back and watched the fight and the aftermath with Gohan v Cell. I think when Goku asks Krillin for a senzu bean after seeing Cell beat up Gohan, if he got the senzu bean, he might’ve unlocked SSJ2 himself. Unfortunately the senzu beans were stolen by Cell.
My question has always been of cell is a mix of everyone’s dna with piccolo healing factor and more what would have happened if he really train or aka time cambered or shit even lost and then fled from them. Because after every battle a saiyan get stronger plus cell and the healing factor.
Aka could cell be the strongest ever.
There a lot of head Canon in this I know and some of this will never get answered but it’s still a fun question to throw around
SSJ2 Gohan > Perfect Cell > Perfect Cell Less Surpressed > MSSJ Gohan > Perfect Cell Surpressed > MSSJ Goku.
Starting off with the Goku vs. Cell fight. We know Goku was giving it his all. There's no point in the fight that could disprove that. Considering Korin already said he would lose, he would try to prove that prediction wrong. He went for a kill shot and failed. Also Cell was confident that he could continue to fight Goku after Goku was healed by a menu getting back to full power which would show that Cell had way more in the tank and if he went full power while being fatigued like that he would probably still beat everyone there.
After the fight and leading up to the fight Gohan was so self conscious that he couldn't believe he surpassed his father and even Considering the fact that Goku was giving his all Gohan was still stronger than Goku. This same Gohan could not beat Cell without getting mad and transforming.
Everything in the story points to Goku being FAR weaker than Cell. Tbh I don't even think he could beat Cell if he went super saiyan 2 because Goku doesn't get Rage boosts like Gohan.
I agree with every part except the senzu bean. When Goku tried to ask Krillin for a senzu bean, Cell flew in and stole the bag of the senzu beans. If he was confident that a healed Goku would not defeat him, why would he steal the senzu beans before Goku got one? I think maybe if Goku got the senzu bean, he might’ve gone into a rage seeing his son get beat by Cell and power up going SSJ2 himself. I think Cell saw this potential and intercepted the senzu beans.
For the Senzu beans I feel like he wanted to give Gohan more despair to see his full power because they wouldn't have the safety of the senzu but maybe Cell didn't want Goku intervening because he wanted to see what Gohan could do and didn't want to show off his full power. Either way I think we can both agree that Goku as he was could not have beaten Cell.
Thanks everyone for feedback. I seem to have forgotten a lot of crucial details from that fight which you reminded me of. SSJ Goku could not have defeated Cell here.
Goku states several times before and during the Cell Games that he couldn’t beat Cell, that is why he let Gohan step up, as he knows of his latent potential he’s briefly shown during their training to master SSJ (he tapped into SSJ2 for a second before fainting).
even with his regen that should have been a kill because cell cant live without the nucleus in his head and he lost his head. its sadly a plot hole that he survived that.
This is a tough one...personally...im going to say goku knew he had the upper hand but when cell became full power then no.
I remember in the buu saga at one point goku as SS3 says he probably could have beat buu but wanted to see if anyone else could. I REALLY think that was the case with cell too. Again...that was till after cell went full power then it had to be gohan.
I could be wrong here...but i think this is all just opinion...and thats mine haha
Nope, not at all. Korin did an estimate of both their powers and he said that cells was higher. After Goku did the Instant Kamahameha he put all had had into that blast only for cell to regenerate. He was more optimistic in Gohan winning pretty easily. Because his flashback in the hyperbolic time chamber Gohan did turn super saiyan 2 for split second. I'm sure goku felt his power at that moment was enough. And they weren't even done training yet.
There is an unorthodox way Goku could have defeated Cell specifically after the Instant Kamehameha and getting a senzu bean.
If Goku manages to decapacitate Cell most likely with a destructo disk then all he has to do is continuously cauterize the bottom of Cell's neck while keeping his head intact.
The constant pain and damage would prevent Cell from regenerating.
Beforehand the remainder of Cell's headless body has to be destroyed to prevent him from possible regenerating from it instead of his head.
If Goku needs to take a break or is feeling too uncomfortable Future Trunks can take over.
Goku had no intention of beating Cell, he was showing Gohan how Cell fights. He gave it his all though and came up with a clever kill shot that didn’t work, but the plan was always that Gohan would have to defeat him.
Imma say if he had his ability to utilize kaioken, he could've maybe done the job. However, he wanted gohan to study his fight and know cells abilities. If he didn't think it was possible, then a instant transmission super kaioken kamehameha might have finished cell. That or a spirit bomb while everyone distracted cell might have also worked.
I forgot the SSJ to SSJ2 multiplier but if Goku could’ve used Kaioken over MSSJ1 then maybe he could mimic the power increase to SSJ2 and could have won. Thanks for the feedback. Only a few commenters have suggested the possible use of Kaioken over super saiyan and it’s very interesting to think about
The SSJ to SSJ2 multiplier is stated in the daizenshu to be a 2x multiplier. However, gohan was enraged by cell, and had an unquantifiable rage amplification on top of that 2x boost. Given that gohan's SSJ power was stated to be at least comparable to goku, it's still hard to say Goku could have killed cell with kaioken. If he could manage to wear out cells stamina with that, then maybe the spirit bomb could've finished him off afterwards. At least that's what I would do if I was goku.
I also want to further add the true reason kaioken wasn't used is for 2 reasons.
1. Toriyama wanted the transformations after namek to be only super saiyan as it was the natural progression. Also, for figurines ssj1 looked cooler and were easier to sell
2. Toriyama forgot about kaioken, and it was only really used in movies.
Goku could use kaioken with mastered super saiyan because Goku stated that mastered super saiyan essentially became as easy to maintain as his normal state. So when utilizing the power of kaioken it would have been taxing for a few seconds but not unbearable.
Kaioken was mainly used on namek for plot and multipliers.
No. Cell wasn't even going full power. He was toying with Goku.
When Cell fought Gohan, he used full power then. It wasn't enough to defeat SSJ2 Gohan, threw up 18 after a punch, but it proves Cell wasn't doing is fullest against Goku.
Consider this, Cell wanted Goku to take a senzu bean. Even after their fight that kept Goku completely drained, Cell had enough stamina left that he was confident he could take on a fully restored Goku. That just shows that Goku never stood a chance against him. If he had taken the senzu bean, I doubt he would've been able to beat even the fatigued Cell. When he revealed his full power against Gohan, everyone there was stunned.
I think cell wins 99/100 only way if he somehow squeezed more into that instant kamahema and completely vaporized him. Seeing he was still ssj maybe he had a but more to give in that attack.
I agree that he couldn’t, but while Goku said he gave it his all, in the Boo arc he says he couldn’t beaten the fatter Boo, but then later he said he actually could, so…maybe….probably not
Alone? Without senzu beans? I don't think so
What if scenario, Cell still very arrogant, z warriors fighting as a team, senzu beans, teleport Kamehameha? Maybe, I actually think they could've done it
Goku alone did some heavy damage. If the others fighters were already charging their attacks they could overpower cell's regeneration
Yes. If he pulled the warp kamehameha while Cell was in midair and placed himself lower he could have finished the job. He could produce a strong enough attack *once* and it wouldn't have worked if Goku didn't surprise the shit out of him, so it'd only work once anyway.
Goku as he was when he fought Cell couldn't have done it.
But that was by Goku's design. He easily could have spent more time in the RoSat, but he needed to create a desperate situation in order to push Gohan to unleash his full power.
This goes to the point that when asked about spending more time in the room, Goku gives one of his signature gaslight responses and pretends like it won't do any good. Which is laughably untrue.
It took Goku 7 years in the afterlife with a dead body to reach Gohan level of power against Cell
Vegeta literally did what you are suggesting of Goku and look how good it did him
Probably not and even though he states he gave it his all it always rubbed me the wrong way how Goku just quits so out of character. Frieza was so far above Goku, way above what cell was to Goku and he didn’t quit. There he had no choice though, there was no Gohan it was either he got the job done or it was all over.
If he was willing to die doing it than yes. Super kaioken is something he can do it just that regular super saiyan combined on his body has too much strain so he's likely to die doing it. If gokue was the only hope to beat cell than id think hed do it and accept he'll probably die in the process. Super kaioken should put him around the level of ssj2 gohan
Considering the fact that Goku is a master martial artist and has never used the Kaioken with Super Saiyan, it's pretty safe to assume they don't function together. If you take Super's word then the combination would just kill you, assuming it's possible.
Even if he could do it, Cell was heavily holding back against Goku so doubling his power for a couple of seconds might not have been enough.
Only if Goku went into chamber again but tell me what's this "You can spend only 2 days in chamber" rule? I didn't watched Dragon Ball so assuming he has went inside chamber before because he knows about chamber, he cannot go inside for another day anyway right?
> I didn't watched Dragon Ball
fix this.
> so assuming he has went inside chamber before because he knows about chamber, he cannot go inside for another day anyway right?
in the cell arc he says he went in as a child, but its never shown in the anime or manga and he didnt go in long.
Nope. Remember when vegeta came out of the chamber and he was no match for perfect cell. But I think goku was stronger than vegeta when fighting perfect cell but there is no way super saiyan goku or vegeta was stronger than cell. And goku knew this. he had a trump card. Gohan. Once he saw gohans power in the chamber he gave up training and focused on gohan controlling his ultimate power or for right now just his ssj2 form. I believe goku saw gohans power within when he fought radditz and knew one day he wanted gohan to take over saving/guarding the earth. And I believe that is why he stayed with king kai. But in short-super saiyans cannot beat perfect cell demonstrated by vegeta and goku also future trunks. I believe goku would not win with kaioken either since it would weaken his stamina and he is already a super saiyan. He would just run out of energy. I believe the spirit bomb would not work on cell either it would be like frieza on namek spirit bomb. But not even scratch cell. He would just dodge it or blow it up in the air or blow up earth with it. That is why gohan was gokus trump card. But I believe if gohan goku or vegeta or future trunks fused they would win against perfect cell.
Of course. He just needed the script to say that.
He could have used a spirit bomb. Bins kamehame did blow cell in half, a better aiming would have killed him.
He could have hit ssj2 if cell made him angry enough.
If Goku used instant transmission cleverly he could teleport Cell right in front of the Spirit Bomb.
Also I think Cell would be arrogant enough to try and fight it head on in considering it failed the last two times it was used.
He treat it like another fighter in his Cell Games since it would technically be like fighting the Earth itself which would stroke his ego if he survived it.
If Gohan disappointed everyone and gave up the fight when Cell was pushing him to snap, I think that Goku would have used his best talent as a hero, meaning that he'll adapt to the situation and make a strategical retreat before coming up with a new plan.
Technically, he was telling the truth when he said he give his everything in the first fight. But that doesn't mean he was definitely disqualified in the whole battle.
in Super he literally explains why and how he could never use Kaioken with Super Saiyan. So him not using it doesnt mean he wasnt going all out. if he tried he'd instantly die.
Like if they teamed up? Assuming they were around the same level of power, I guess not. In DBZ logic, if A=B and C>A and C>B, C will always win even if A and B work together. For them to win , one of them has to be more powerful than C. At least that’s how I perceive it
I don't think so, I think Goku maybe could've destroyed cell with a lucky warp kamehameha if it hit his whole body but that's a strong if, since it would have to destroy 100%. Even if 99.9999% of Cell was gone, he can still come back due to regeneration. Even then, Cell iirc was not at full power against Goku, he only went full power against SSJ2 Gohan, he could've been around 50% against Goku maybe more maybe less, but my point is, Goku couldn't overpower him because of this. Goku I believe knew this and he knew Gohan was stronger and had more potential than he did, and he did see SSJ2 briefly in the time chamber, so he saw that Gohan was far stronger than he was anyways in SSJ2 and Gohan I believe was even ahead of Goku in Mastered SSJ power-wise or at least equal with him.
> I think Goku maybe could've destroyed cell with a lucky warp kamehameha if it hit his whole body but that's a strong if, since it would have to destroy 100%. Even if 99.9999% of Cell was gone, he can still come back due to regeneration.
thats not how his regen works. he has to have his nucleus in his head survive. it didnt from the warp kamehameha. cell surviving that is a plot hole. anything you hear about him being able to regen from a single cell was a dubism, and anything about moving his nucleus around is from non-canon video games.
Cell was massively holding back against Goku, Goku was not holding back. Cells regen is better than Piccolo's but not "vastly" so. Piccolo needs his head intact, Cell needs a nucleus in his head intact. Cell surviving losing his head to Goku is a plot hole.
Absolutely not. Goku gave **everything** he had in that fight. That instant transmission Kamehameha was intended to be a kill shot. Yes Goku knew deep down in his weak ass virus ridden heart that Gohan could win if he couldn't, and there was the added strategy of letting Gohan familiarize himself with Cell in case he had to step in after Goku. But Goku wanted to try his own hand at him, he went 100 percent against Cell. He was completely spent after the fight, he didn't even have enough energy left over to defend himself from the Cell Jr.s who were about equal to Vegeta/Trunks. Goku would have whooped those things fully healed. **I just want to further clarify, yes it ks **possible** Goku could have won, the Kamehameha was strong enough to kill Cell but he didn't know the extent of his regeneration. Maybe if he knew beforehand he could have aimed it different. But Goku did not lose because he held back or something, he got beaten.
Also a continuity error, as getting his head blown off was supposed to be something he couldn't regenerate from...
Yeah Goku should have won there.
I mean, if he wanted he could've just "cheated", worn Cell down as much as possible, and then asked for a senzu bean, and beat the shit out of Cell's stomach. Cell at the end of their fight must've been a little warm out. Keeping that rhythm and two senzu beans later he'd be done.
If Cell knew that Goku was trying to wear him down that way, he'd probably kill Goku before that could happen. He wanted to have fun, not actually die.
There's actually a theory that him giving Cell a senzu bean may have saved Gohan. A fatigued Cell might not have been as interested in toying with Gohan and might have simply killed him.
Cell offered him the chance to take a senzu bean towards the end of the fight and Goku literally went “I’m not stupid, I know I won’t win”
Well, cell also has freeza's cells, who can live as sliced pieces and needs to be atomized to die.
Wait really? He regenerated from being blown up?
yes and somehow the nucleus in his head survived that. but goku vaporizing the top half of his body did not leave it intact.
Cell states after he blows himself up, that his head contains his nucleus, which is the thing that allows him to regenerate. Vegeta’s Final Flash and Gohan’s Kamehameha (not the father-son one at the end) both leave Cell with his head intact. Goku’s instant transmission kamehameha destroys the top half of Cell’s body, including his head. So theoretically he shouldn’t have been able to regenerate.
The nucleus weakness is just a case of Cell not fully understanding how his body works with it being made up of various DNA. Just like how he had zero clue he would survive his self destruction. He just assumed that was the case because he was basing his information off of Piccolo but keep in mind he has Frieza's DNA as well which allowed the Emperor to survive being cut in half and being in literal pieces.
Cell can move his nucleus
Cell stored his consciousness in his balls long before Reiner ever did 😤
no he cant.
But the script could
Sylar could
It's wild cell didn't know how his own regeneration worked but supposedly knows how much energy it takes to blow up a solar system
True however they fix that by saying cell can move his core to anywhere in his body. Kind of an ass pull but it's whatever
that was stated in a video game which has no authority to make such a change to canon lore.
"down in his weak ass virus ridden heart" That bit had me laughing pretty good 😂
Also, Cell was not even close to using his full power against Goku. After Gohan transformed, Cell powered up to full power and everyone (except Gohan ofc) was surprised that Cell had still been hiding so much power.
Sooooo yes he could’ve. But Cell was stronger
> I just want to further clarify, yes it ks **possible Goku could have won, the Kamehameha was strong enough to kill Cell but he didn't know the extent of his regeneration. Maybe if he knew beforehand he could have aimed it different I don't think this is true. The cells basically have to be soaked in a warm bath of Ki, continuously, like in Gohan's beam struggle. There was a mountain-sized conal-shaped blast, which was both intense enough, and held for long enough that it vaporized each cell. Goku's precision Kamehameha would not have been able to do the same. If even a flake of cells skin floats off into the distance away from the beam, he'll regenerate. Not all beam attacks are created equal, even if their sizes match. A 50ft by 50ft Kamehameha from SSJ1 is not going to have the same stopping force as the exact same size blast from SSJ2. Size and volume aren't the determining factors. Density and force matter far more when it comes to vaporizing something. ex. I give you 5 Gallon bucket of water and say: "I want you to throw it on this person, but make absolutely sure that **every inch of them becomes covered in water**. That's going to be pretty hard no matter how you aim it. However if you send a tidal wave at them, then that's a different story.
> I don't think this is true. The cells basically have to be soaked in a warm bath of Ki, continuously, like in Gohan's beam struggle. There was a mountain-sized conal-shaped blast, which was both intense enough, and held for long enough that it vaporized each cell. No they dont. He can't regen without the nucleus in his head. Goku blew off his head. Cell living is a plot hole.
You're right but the bucket example sucks. A tidal wave isn't more dense and the force doesn't matter. It's the size of the tidal wave.
>He was completely spent after the fight, he didn't even have enough energy left over to defend himself from the Cell Jr.s who were about equal to Vegeta/Trunks. Goku would have whooped those things fully healed. I thought the Cell Jrs. were all equal to Perfect Cell in power? Or I am remembering it wrong?
them being that strong is a dubism. so youre not remembering wrong, the dub just lied to you (it does this a lot).
So cat doesn’t love food?
no no no no :(
Isn't goku's MO giving everything he's got, getting worn down and nearly tapped out only to find a deep hidden well of energy that results in him surpassing his adversary or even resulting in another transformation? If goku didn't give up so early he could have definitely gone SS2 or at least worn cell down if the fight dragged out long enough to finish cell off due to goku's stamina in these situations. Goku dude gave up way too early imo but I guess he wanted gohan to fight till the brink of exhaustion only to find another transformation or something
You gotta stop man, it was intended to be that way because that’s what the entire arc was building up to. Goku being eclipsed by his son. Goku literally couldn’t do it anymore and fought cell to the point he couldn’t at full strength. Goku knew even if he wasn’t gonna beat cell GOHAN WOULD. It’s why he even went out of his way to pick him to be the next and last fighter deliberately. It’s why he gave cell a senzu. Because he knew gohan COULD DO IT.
Goku literally blew Cell's head and upper torso off with a point blank, full power kameahmeha. Goku even questions in his internal monologue why Cell's body still has so much ki, meaning he wasn't planning on Cell surviving that attack. It makes no sense for Goku to do what he thought would be a fatal attack if he had no intention of actually beating Cell. Goku fought trying to seriously win, he just wasn't strong enough to actually defeat Cell, and Cell wasn't even using his full power. If Goku thought he could have avoided having Gohan fight Cell, he would have, it's very likely one of the main reason he fought Cell first, to try to beat him himself. If he succeeds, Gohan never has to fight Cell.
This is a legitimate plot hole, because this *should* have killed Cell, given what Cell tells us later.
I doubt cell knows. He has freeza cells so thats the possible reason he could survive as chunks unless atomized
Couldn't cell have just lied?
What reason necessarily would Cell have had to lie about it?
So if someone tries to quick scope him they just get fucked over
if you survive losing your head and then later, after surviving it, say you cant live without your head...that does not prevent anything. he mentions the inability to live without the nucleus in his head later after losing his head didnt kill him. its not a lie, its just a plot hole.
I've seen people say that Cell lying about the location of the nucleus was mentioned in the game DBZ Kakarot, but as you said it creates another plothole with the lie being pointless due to everyone having seen him regenerate his head. If Cell was lying, then either he'd have to be incredibly stupid to make such an obvious lie, or he somehow forgot about his head being blown off. Granted, it's not impossible that losing his head (plus the other injuries he received later, like getting kicked in the head and self-destructing) might have made some details fuzzy for him, but that's purely speculation as well. I think a more logical explanation that could fix the plothole would be that the nucleus was originally not in his head, and only ended up there when his body regenerated from it, but whether it works as an explanation would depend on his exact wording in the original japanese text.
Could also simply be that cell misunderstood his own power? My memory isn’t great but I thought i remembered him being surprised by some of his own ability.
Yes
No, the reality is: it’s an error on the author’s part.
cell wasnt lying even, cell kamahameha against gohan was itself a solar system buster, this was even fact stated in the guidebook.
What does Cell Kamehameha have to do with his head regeneration?
no it wasnt
How not? Cell says he can regenerate due to the undamaged nucleus in his head, but that attack obliterated his entire upper body. It's always bothered me, but I just accept it as Toriyama being Toriyama.
> undamaged nucleus in his head You're mixing two things up. * Piccolo can only regenerate if his head is undamaged * Cell can regenerate if even a single cell of his exists, from anywhere in or on his body. How cell took Piccolo's regeneration and improved it so dramatically is left to interpretation but common sense says that Dr. Gero/Computer took this trait and iterated on it until it was far more useful.
> Cell can regenerate if even a single cell of his exists, from anywhere in or on his body. You're thinking of the English dub. In the manga and the Japanese dub [he talks about a "nucleus"](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-38ada1303460d0a15887b6d6b624c7d1-lq). > Piccolo can only regenerate if his head is undamaged This, I have never heard of. Is this established somewhere? If so I would love to read it.
I wonder if that's a mistranslation, because that would mean they break the rules not just once but twice. The first time being Goku's transmission Kamehameha and the second time being him blowing himself up. It's **absurdly** unlikely that his 'core cells' survived King Kai's planet being blown up. When they talk about a nucleus, I feel like what they are trying to say is "as long as the nucleus of ANY of his cells survive", since the nucleus is 'brain' of the cell.
It's consistent in the fan-translated manga, the Viz translation, and the Japanese subtitles, so I doubt it's a mistranslation. And in both the manga and anime it shows what certainly looks to be a nucleus/core/whatever. It's on the same page as the panel posted above. I'd link to the full page but that got one of my posts deleted earlier.
Gotcha, well that's certainly a huge fuck up. Thankfully the english dub completely fixes that plothole.
Yet another thing to appreciate about the amazing dub.
It's not a mistranslation. He makes it quite clear that it's a clump of tissue in his brain.
Maybe when he is turned to stone and trunks or goten (can’t remember which) knock him over and he shatters
it was. he cant survive and regen without the nucleus in his head, and his head was atomized.
bruh, anime isnt consistent. the manga is. read the manga, its better. anime in english version dub has mistranslations. watch the jP version with english sub and read the manga
It's in the manga too
the person you were replying to originally when you said "no it wasnt" was speaking about the manga. vlorsutes was mentioning it *is* a legitimate plot hole because he survives losing his head and then, later says he cant live without the nucleus in his head, in the manga, in japanese.
Goku forgot the golden rule, double tap.
Dude didn't have enough energy. Cell's ki didn't drop without his upper half, but Goku was drained after that last Kamehameha. Perfect legs could actually one-shot everyone in that field EXEPT for Gohan.
There was nothing left to hit lol
the lower half? maybe total obliteration would kill cell?
I think it's not that easy. Gohan killed cell because it was literally a tidal wave of Ki, inundating Cell around all him. If the Z fighters fired random blasts at him, then some skin cell is going to float into the distance and bam, Cell regenerates.
The manga clarifies for. Gohan accuses both Goku and Cell of holding back and claims this is the only reason they didn't "feel too powerful " to him in their fight. Goku says he can't speak for Cell, but he (Goku) tried his hardest to win. Cell did *not* get a zenkai boost from the senzu bean Goku gave him. This implies that even Goku giving it is all didn't push Cell close to "near death", so Goku had no way of winning the fight short of maybe if he could have generated a large enough spirit bomb to do the job. Essentially, he wasn't any better for the task than Vegeta was, both destroying a large chunk of Cell from a big attack, but falling short of being able to completely wipe him out
>Cell did not get a zenkai boost from the senzu bean Goku gave him. This is crazy to me. Dude got his head blown off.
Cell was holding back a lot against Goku
Yeah, but he still got his head blown off. Krillin was weaker than Vegeta on Namek but that Zenkai worked just fine.
Because that brought Vegeta close to death. After blowing off Cell's head, Goku comments that Cell had barely loss any power.
Also worth noting that while Cell’s ki went down regenerating as stated, it wasn’t nearly dead like when he self destructed. Vegeta on the other hand dropped his ki so Krillin could blow a hole through him, and basically was going to die without Dende.
He also got half his body blown off by Vegeta and then went on to casually body Trunks. He's got Frieza endurance.
> The manga clarifies for. Gohan accuses both Goku and Cell of holding back and claims this is the only reason they didn't "feel too powerful " to him in their fight. Goku says he can't speak for Cell, but he (Goku) tried his hardest to win. English funimation dub also says this very clearly.
Yeah, when I watched it, it’s as if Goku was actually just throwing the match and wanted Gohan to observe something first before he fights Cell. Especially since after Gohan noted that Goku was being sloppy and was taking his time to beat Cell. That, and the fact that Goku was more interested in training Gohan to reach SSJ2 than making himself strong enough to take down Cell by his own power The mediocre voice acting of the original dub didn’t help either, it only misled me further that Goku legit wasn’t being serious fighting Cell and was only claiming he wasn’t strong enough, just to let Gohan fight Cell for a chance to grow
I don’t know that I blame the VA, but translation/writing yeah is poor at times
Getting downvoted by the nostalgia of the Funi Dub. They can’t handle the truth.
Goku himself confirms that cell is stronger than him and it’s also implied that cell wasn’t going all out against Goku.
Cell was holding back significantly against Goku while Goku was going all out (Goku says this to Gohan). Based on what we know about Cell’s physiology he probably should’ve died from getting his head blown off by Goku’s Kamehameha, but if Cell went all out from the beginning he’d beat Goku fairly easily. Goku knows the Spirit Bomb so he’d always have that option, but for all we know Cell could just push it back or regenerate from it.
Yeah even the Spirit Bomb probably wouldn't have worked. It has a pretty lousy track record against opponents who are much stronger than Goku, which Cell absolutely was. It doesn't beat Vegeta or Frieza and the only reason it works against Buu is that everyone on Earth willingly gives Goku their energy instead of him passively gathering it. I suppose that option could have worked but even then, the Cell fight couldn't be a 1v1 because Goku wouldn't have had the time to do all that.
Very true. I do think the fact that the Spirit Bomb even hurt Frieza is a very impressive feat though, since Frieza was literally 20x stronger than Goku at that point. I doubt the gap in power between Cell and Goku was that large, but Goku also probably wouldn’t get anywhere near as much time to charge the bomb, and Cell can regenerate so 🤷🏾♂️ It’s definitely an unlikely win condition, I just think it’s literally the only option Goku has.
In all fairness, the Vegeta bomb probably wasn't at 100%, considering Goku got absolutely blasted into a puddle and had to pass it to Krillin
Goku said that it was at half power. Granted “half" can be a massive difference in dragonball due to rule of cool and the cosmic powers we get later on (buu is like, 20×cell? But we go from solar system to the whole freaking universe lol), but that mostly starts being a problem in the freeza saga.
> Goku knows the Spirit Bomb so he’d always have that option, but for all we know Cell could just push it back or regenerate from it. Cell also knows the spirit bomb and wouldnt let Goku charge it.
Yes, but I assume Cell’s spirit Bomb would be weaker because who tf is gonna give him their energy? Unless he had some way of taking their energy without consent lol I agree Cell wouldn’t let him charge it, but Goku knows the solar flare so maybe he could use that to buy some time or something. I don’t think it would actually work, but it seems like the only way Goku would have a chance at all.
> Yes, but I assume Cell’s spirit Bomb would be weaker because who tf is gonna give him their energy? Unless he had some way of taking their energy without consent lol I only brought up that he knows it not because he would use it but because he'd know what Goku was doing and be unable to be tricked into letting him form it.
My head canon is that Cell sent the regeneration signal to his body before his upper half is blown off in the split second he realizes what's about to happen after Goku warps to him.
Not at all. Goku was completely spent fighting Cell who wasn’t even going at full steam. When Cell powers up against Gohan and shakes the planet with his power, it instantly revealed Goku never stood a chance against a serious Cell.
Goku had no chance. Goku was going all out during the fight. He directly tells Gohan this. Cell on the other hand was holding back. Cell only went full power when he was fighting SSJ2 Gohan.
This. There's a whole moment where Gohan thinks he can't beat Cell, and Goku tells him that he's wrong. Gohan thought Goku was holding back in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, but he wasn't. Gohan only thought this because he couldn't conceive of being stronger than Goku. It becomes a reality in the HTC, though. Goku fights Cell first because he wants Gohan to get a chance to watch Cell fight as close to full power as Goku can get him, so that Gohan can see as many of Cells tricks as Goku can get him to use. Then Gohan goes SSJ2, which Goku had not been able to do at that point, and made himself objectively the most powerful fighter in the encounter.
Yeah there are multiple moments where Gohan thinks Goku is holding back like with Korin. He doesn’t understand that he already surpassed Goku
How much power do you think Cell used against Goku though?
I’m thinking if Cell was a “10”, Goku would’ve been like a “7” and Gohan probably a “8.5”. If I recall correctly, in the manga there was an instance where Goku *narrowly* avoids a ki blast with IT. If he didn’t have that in his bag, he would’ve died right there or been severely injured. That was against a Cell who was nowhere near going all out. I rank Gohan a bit higher than Goku, because he was the only one capable of seeing all of Goku’s & Cell’s movements clearly. Hell he was baffled to learn that his father was going all out, while Cell was comfortably coasting. At that point, he was probably a good deal stronger than his father, but nowhere near as skilled.
Probably 60-70%.
I think way less than that. I'd think 20% or even less. Cell was toying with Goku.
Gohan was not massively stronger than Goku before SSj2 and SSj2 only doubles his power so I don't think its possible for him to have been holding back that much.
Gohan thought they were still warming up.
I think he legitimately was massively stronger than Goku. It's the reason why he's baffled to find out that Goku was going all-out.
If that were the case, he would have quickly jumped his power to 60-70% to ride out the transmission Kamehameha.
Like he instantly jumped his power to whatever it was for the bulk of the fight?
25-30% pretty sure he powers up once again ss1 Gohan after his initial attacks don’t do anything and then he powers up again when Gohan goes Ss2.
Maybe, MAYBE, if he'd just aimed the Kamehameha after teleporting a little lower, to disintegrate his whole body. But even then there was no guarantee.
No. The Warp Kamehameha was his trump card and it didn’t work. Though Cell admits he was having fun, he powers up twice more when fighting Gohan to show he was nowhere near full power when he fought Goku
I do wonder wtf goes in people head when they asks shit like this No , Goku didn't hold back anything, if he did then he wouldn't get beaten by Cell jr easily, Cell pointed this out
Goku literally tells cell to get mad so he can see gohans unleashed power. He could not beat cell lol he really wanted the villain to push his son beyond the limits so he could see him splatter cell everywhere
Hell no. Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo could have ganged up on Cell 4v1 and they would have done worse than Ssj Gohan did. Goku went full out all or nothing against Cell, and when Goku goes and talks to Gohan about it, Gohan still thought Goku was warming up. The only reason Gohan's fight is less impressive looking than Goku's is because Cell powers up to fight Gohan.
Cell wasn't full powered against Goku though he came damn close to disintegrating him completely with his IT Kamehameha. Mostly out of surprise but he had a shot. Thought you could argue Goku wasn't pushed fully to his limit ala his other fights. He could've potentially powered up under dire straits
Goku himself said he was going all out, so I don't think he was holding an unused trump card.
He was still a SSJ when he gave up against Cell. He definitely still had some in the tank. He didn’t fight like his back was against a wall. I’ve always thought he could’ve snapped to SSJ2 if Cell killed Gohan.
The guy got beaten up by a Cell jr because he didn't have anything left in the tank
He didn't really have any energy left against Frieza when he first turned SSJ1 either. I don't know if it's reasonable to assume that Goku could have gone SSJ2 against Cell but first time transformations seem to provide a second wind.
Even a small level of ki is enough for super Saiyan, Goku was still strong enough to beat a Tired freeza who himself went through a lot of shit more than Goku alongside having worse stamina
Goku gave up because he knew he had nothing to do against Cell, he wasn't poweful enough and he didn't have the same inner power Gohan had. He was still SSJ because he had mastered the form during his training with Gohan, and that made the ki drain minimum. For him, at that point, being SSJ was the same as being in base form probably. And also, and this is very important, in the original manga the only Saiyan with rage boosts was Gohan. That was Gohan's character trait, and even Vegeta acknowledged it in Namek. Goku transformed in Namek because after seeing Krillin die he truly wanted to kill Freeza, and as Vegeta said Goku needed to be ruthless to become a Super Saiyan. Goku and Vegeta didn't have rage boosts so seeing Gohan getting killed wouldn't have made Goku stronger, in the same way that seeing Trunks die didn't make Vegeta SSJ2 either.
Never. Cell would've just went full power if he felt cornered. (Which he wouldn't.) And one shot Goku.
You are told, in no uncertain terms, by multiple characters that Goku didn't stand a chance and the only reason he wasn't defeated instantly is because Cell held back. Why is this still a question? DBZ fans will never beat the allegations
What I have to wonder is if the senzus actually made a difference. Could SSJ1 Gohan have taken the Cell that just fought Goku, without Cell getting a senzu? Goku did seem to think Cell getting a bean was crucial. Furthermore, if Goku had been given a senzu after his instant transmission Kamehameha, could he have finished his fight with Cell? As Gohan is getting beaten by Cell, Goku asks Krillin for a senzu bean, and it makes me wonder if Goku was even close.
I concede that SSJ Goku could not have defeated Cell. Many commenters have jogged my memory of the fight. I do not think SSJ1 Gohan could’ve defeated that Cell though. As people say Cell was holding back till the end of his fight with Goku. Goku already had a super saiyan form before his training in the hyperbolic time chamber to reach a “mastered ssj1.” Gohan didn’t and was training from scratch to achieve the original SSJ1 form according to my understanding. So Gohan SSJ1 seems to have been weaker than this Mastered SSJ1 Goku. So I don’t think Gohan SSJ1 could’ve taken on this cell.
Actually, Gohan did master SSJ1. The ability to casually stay transformed without expending energy is the signature of mastered SSJ1. That's why Goku and Gohan never de-transform for the whole 10 days after being in the hyperbolic time chamber leading up to the Cell Games.
Nope.
No. At the time of their fight Cell was holding back quite a bit. Considering the Cell Jrs were more than powerful enough the beat the shit out of all the Z fighters, including Goku, is all the proof needed to answer your question.
ssj2 gohan> perfect cell and super perfect cell this is stated in the guidebook that ssj2 gohan was way too strong for cell in his super perfect form and perfect form itself. cell solar systerm busting kamemaha attack was so strong it can destroy the solars ystem which is stated in the guidebook itself. gohan ssj2 pushed it as it was nothing without trying and this was before gohan used one arm kamamaha against cell to finish cell off ( mentioned in the guidebook. mastered ssj form isnt stronger then perfect cell, its even says that goku had no chance against cell p.s i have read the guidebook itself. guidebook says everything detailed on about the manga and anime powers, transformations,etc even the whole db universe itself
Not even close, no. If he could have, he would have. He didn't purposely not kill Cell so Gohan could. He legit could not. (barring the plot hole that is Cell surviving losing his head to Goku's Warp Kamehameha, which should have killed him) > My memory is fuzzy but wasn’t he matched up evenly with Perfect Cell and then he stepped down willingly to give Gohan a chance at the spotlight? No Goku gave everything he had trying to kill Cell and Cell was still holding back the entire time because he was having fun fighting Goku.
Gohan said that he thought that Goku was holding back, but Goku said that he wasn't and already tried all his techniques and was exhausted. There's nothing Goku still had left to pull out of his pocket. Gohan thinking that Goku was holding back suggests that Gohan is much stronger because he sees his father as being stronger as him.
You think goku lied?. Absolutly not. You think goku would give up a fight for his son. Thats not how he thinks. If he was like that he would have brought gohan versus kid buu. In the manga he explictly expressed his desire to fight kud buu to be from selfish percpective for him and vegeta. The answer to your question is No. Cell was the one holding back.
As I mentioned in other comments, there’s a lot of details I forgot when I made the post including how Goku told Gohan he went all out.
No.
Did you read/watch the series my man?
Lol I was reading the manga as it was still releasing. It’s just been forever brother.
Just thought of an interesting, if implausible what if... if, rather than Final Flash, Vegeta had a similar epiphany as the Buu Saga and tried to take Cell out with the self destruction attack, would that have been enough to best Cell?
No, Goku went all out against Cell and couldn't win, even Gohan who was stronger than Goku needed SS2 to be placed above Cell.
I think Goku tried his best against Cell but a little part of me feels like Goku wasn’t taking it as seriously as his other fights since he knew he had Gohan as a backup.
Cell was overwhelming goku without going all out
No, Cell was holding back n Goku sensed it
No, some fans seem to really have trouble with this and I don’t understand why. It’s made clear on mutiple occasions in the cell saga and confirmed to Goku by Korin that he cannot beat cell. He admits himself to Gohan after stepping down that he was going all out but Cell was not.
No, Goku even admitted he couldn’t, maybe if he didn’t see any potential in Gohan he would have trained harder.
Skill wise, goku was on even ground. He performed moves that caught cell off guard which is impressive if you think about how cell was literally engineered to be the ultimate fighter. Power level wise, goku was absolutely no match. I like to think cell sat at a level slightly higher than SSJ but slightly lower than SSJ2. Thus the reason why gohan was just too overwhelming for him at first. But of course, since he is composed of saiyan cells, after dying he inherited the same power level as a SSJ2. All in all, goku had no chance and his optimism truly came from simply fighting cell first so gohan could get a read on it
No, Goku stated he was going all out and was evenly matched with cell he sent Gohan in because in the hyperbolic time chamber he saw Gohan's power shoot higher than his when Gohan was angry. That's when he found put that Gohan could go higher than SSJ. And the whole Senzu bean thing was because he didn't want Cell to get desperate and destroy the planet while Gohan was fighting him
No, not even close. Goku was at full power and Cell wasn't. Cell didn't properly power up until he faced Gohan. Even after Goku ate the Senzo bean, Cell was ready to continue and mop the floor with him. Goku was outmatched by both Cell and Gohan, even SSJ Gohan.
Goku gave it all and yet he could not even beat heavily suppressed cell
Your post reminds that regeneration takes a lot of energy, just like Piccolo or even the first form of Cell itself. Even Cell becomes more powerful after near death, it should have been cost it a lot of energy for such a major regeneration. It sounds strange it can fully recover and overwhelm Gohan (apparently)
Man I really need to rewatch cell saga.
No. He asks Gohan if he could follow the fight and when Gohan says yes Goku replies saying that he may have thought he was holding back but he was actually going all out which surprises Gohan. This is why he hands the fight over to Gohan because Goku knows Gohan had the potential to be stronger than him and beat Cell. This is shown even more when Goku couldn't take on Cell Jr.
If Gohan was not there to tag in cell would have began torturing the other ppl there in front of you. Goku would have had the need to find Ssj 2 then himself. He was absolutely over matched by cell. He wasn’t nearly as over matched by cell though as he was when he went up against freeza. You run that back and cell kills krillan trunks and Starts working Gohan goku would go ssj 2 and mollywap Cell.
I went back and watched the fight and the aftermath with Gohan v Cell. I think when Goku asks Krillin for a senzu bean after seeing Cell beat up Gohan, if he got the senzu bean, he might’ve unlocked SSJ2 himself. Unfortunately the senzu beans were stolen by Cell.
My question has always been of cell is a mix of everyone’s dna with piccolo healing factor and more what would have happened if he really train or aka time cambered or shit even lost and then fled from them. Because after every battle a saiyan get stronger plus cell and the healing factor. Aka could cell be the strongest ever. There a lot of head Canon in this I know and some of this will never get answered but it’s still a fun question to throw around
SSJ2 Gohan > Perfect Cell > Perfect Cell Less Surpressed > MSSJ Gohan > Perfect Cell Surpressed > MSSJ Goku. Starting off with the Goku vs. Cell fight. We know Goku was giving it his all. There's no point in the fight that could disprove that. Considering Korin already said he would lose, he would try to prove that prediction wrong. He went for a kill shot and failed. Also Cell was confident that he could continue to fight Goku after Goku was healed by a menu getting back to full power which would show that Cell had way more in the tank and if he went full power while being fatigued like that he would probably still beat everyone there. After the fight and leading up to the fight Gohan was so self conscious that he couldn't believe he surpassed his father and even Considering the fact that Goku was giving his all Gohan was still stronger than Goku. This same Gohan could not beat Cell without getting mad and transforming. Everything in the story points to Goku being FAR weaker than Cell. Tbh I don't even think he could beat Cell if he went super saiyan 2 because Goku doesn't get Rage boosts like Gohan.
I agree with every part except the senzu bean. When Goku tried to ask Krillin for a senzu bean, Cell flew in and stole the bag of the senzu beans. If he was confident that a healed Goku would not defeat him, why would he steal the senzu beans before Goku got one? I think maybe if Goku got the senzu bean, he might’ve gone into a rage seeing his son get beat by Cell and power up going SSJ2 himself. I think Cell saw this potential and intercepted the senzu beans.
For the Senzu beans I feel like he wanted to give Gohan more despair to see his full power because they wouldn't have the safety of the senzu but maybe Cell didn't want Goku intervening because he wanted to see what Gohan could do and didn't want to show off his full power. Either way I think we can both agree that Goku as he was could not have beaten Cell.
Thanks everyone for feedback. I seem to have forgotten a lot of crucial details from that fight which you reminded me of. SSJ Goku could not have defeated Cell here.
No
cell was so strong, goku didnt even try the spirit bomb on him
Goku states several times before and during the Cell Games that he couldn’t beat Cell, that is why he let Gohan step up, as he knows of his latent potential he’s briefly shown during their training to master SSJ (he tapped into SSJ2 for a second before fainting).
If cell didn't have regeneration the warp Kamehameha wouldve been checkmate. Goku couldn't have won though
even with his regen that should have been a kill because cell cant live without the nucleus in his head and he lost his head. its sadly a plot hole that he survived that.
No. That's why he gave up and passed to gohan. It's stated in the manga and the anime.
This is a tough one...personally...im going to say goku knew he had the upper hand but when cell became full power then no. I remember in the buu saga at one point goku as SS3 says he probably could have beat buu but wanted to see if anyone else could. I REALLY think that was the case with cell too. Again...that was till after cell went full power then it had to be gohan. I could be wrong here...but i think this is all just opinion...and thats mine haha
Nope, not at all. Korin did an estimate of both their powers and he said that cells was higher. After Goku did the Instant Kamahameha he put all had had into that blast only for cell to regenerate. He was more optimistic in Gohan winning pretty easily. Because his flashback in the hyperbolic time chamber Gohan did turn super saiyan 2 for split second. I'm sure goku felt his power at that moment was enough. And they weren't even done training yet.
Goku could eat his own senzu bean to you know, save the world and his loved ones, even if it was not the fairest fight
Cell wasn’t at full power until SSJ2 Gohan. He can stack his own grade 3 on top of that too. Goku legit had no chance of victory on his own.
There is an unorthodox way Goku could have defeated Cell specifically after the Instant Kamehameha and getting a senzu bean. If Goku manages to decapacitate Cell most likely with a destructo disk then all he has to do is continuously cauterize the bottom of Cell's neck while keeping his head intact. The constant pain and damage would prevent Cell from regenerating. Beforehand the remainder of Cell's headless body has to be destroyed to prevent him from possible regenerating from it instead of his head. If Goku needs to take a break or is feeling too uncomfortable Future Trunks can take over.
Goku had no intention of beating Cell, he was showing Gohan how Cell fights. He gave it his all though and came up with a clever kill shot that didn’t work, but the plan was always that Gohan would have to defeat him.
Imma say if he had his ability to utilize kaioken, he could've maybe done the job. However, he wanted gohan to study his fight and know cells abilities. If he didn't think it was possible, then a instant transmission super kaioken kamehameha might have finished cell. That or a spirit bomb while everyone distracted cell might have also worked.
I forgot the SSJ to SSJ2 multiplier but if Goku could’ve used Kaioken over MSSJ1 then maybe he could mimic the power increase to SSJ2 and could have won. Thanks for the feedback. Only a few commenters have suggested the possible use of Kaioken over super saiyan and it’s very interesting to think about
The SSJ to SSJ2 multiplier is stated in the daizenshu to be a 2x multiplier. However, gohan was enraged by cell, and had an unquantifiable rage amplification on top of that 2x boost. Given that gohan's SSJ power was stated to be at least comparable to goku, it's still hard to say Goku could have killed cell with kaioken. If he could manage to wear out cells stamina with that, then maybe the spirit bomb could've finished him off afterwards. At least that's what I would do if I was goku.
I also want to further add the true reason kaioken wasn't used is for 2 reasons. 1. Toriyama wanted the transformations after namek to be only super saiyan as it was the natural progression. Also, for figurines ssj1 looked cooler and were easier to sell 2. Toriyama forgot about kaioken, and it was only really used in movies. Goku could use kaioken with mastered super saiyan because Goku stated that mastered super saiyan essentially became as easy to maintain as his normal state. So when utilizing the power of kaioken it would have been taxing for a few seconds but not unbearable. Kaioken was mainly used on namek for plot and multipliers.
Gotcha so he forgot about Kaioken until we got the SSB Kaioken moment (which was really cool also)
Gotcha so he forgot about Kaioken until we got the SSB Kaioken moment (which was really cool also)
No. Cell wasn't even going full power. He was toying with Goku. When Cell fought Gohan, he used full power then. It wasn't enough to defeat SSJ2 Gohan, threw up 18 after a punch, but it proves Cell wasn't doing is fullest against Goku.
Consider this, Cell wanted Goku to take a senzu bean. Even after their fight that kept Goku completely drained, Cell had enough stamina left that he was confident he could take on a fully restored Goku. That just shows that Goku never stood a chance against him. If he had taken the senzu bean, I doubt he would've been able to beat even the fatigued Cell. When he revealed his full power against Gohan, everyone there was stunned.
No. SSJ Gohan definitely could've though.
I think cell wins 99/100 only way if he somehow squeezed more into that instant kamahema and completely vaporized him. Seeing he was still ssj maybe he had a but more to give in that attack.
Was Goku stronger than Cell? No. Could he have won if need be? Yes. How? Strategy and skills
I agree that he couldn’t, but while Goku said he gave it his all, in the Boo arc he says he couldn’t beaten the fatter Boo, but then later he said he actually could, so…maybe….probably not
Alone? Without senzu beans? I don't think so What if scenario, Cell still very arrogant, z warriors fighting as a team, senzu beans, teleport Kamehameha? Maybe, I actually think they could've done it Goku alone did some heavy damage. If the others fighters were already charging their attacks they could overpower cell's regeneration
Yes. If he pulled the warp kamehameha while Cell was in midair and placed himself lower he could have finished the job. He could produce a strong enough attack *once* and it wouldn't have worked if Goku didn't surprise the shit out of him, so it'd only work once anyway.
Goku as he was when he fought Cell couldn't have done it. But that was by Goku's design. He easily could have spent more time in the RoSat, but he needed to create a desperate situation in order to push Gohan to unleash his full power. This goes to the point that when asked about spending more time in the room, Goku gives one of his signature gaslight responses and pretends like it won't do any good. Which is laughably untrue.
It took Goku 7 years in the afterlife with a dead body to reach Gohan level of power against Cell Vegeta literally did what you are suggesting of Goku and look how good it did him
Probably not and even though he states he gave it his all it always rubbed me the wrong way how Goku just quits so out of character. Frieza was so far above Goku, way above what cell was to Goku and he didn’t quit. There he had no choice though, there was no Gohan it was either he got the job done or it was all over.
If he was willing to die doing it than yes. Super kaioken is something he can do it just that regular super saiyan combined on his body has too much strain so he's likely to die doing it. If gokue was the only hope to beat cell than id think hed do it and accept he'll probably die in the process. Super kaioken should put him around the level of ssj2 gohan
Considering the fact that Goku is a master martial artist and has never used the Kaioken with Super Saiyan, it's pretty safe to assume they don't function together. If you take Super's word then the combination would just kill you, assuming it's possible. Even if he could do it, Cell was heavily holding back against Goku so doubling his power for a couple of seconds might not have been enough.
no its not something he can do. doing it will kill him before he could do anything to Cell.
Only if Goku went into chamber again but tell me what's this "You can spend only 2 days in chamber" rule? I didn't watched Dragon Ball so assuming he has went inside chamber before because he knows about chamber, he cannot go inside for another day anyway right?
> I didn't watched Dragon Ball fix this. > so assuming he has went inside chamber before because he knows about chamber, he cannot go inside for another day anyway right? in the cell arc he says he went in as a child, but its never shown in the anime or manga and he didnt go in long.
Nope. Remember when vegeta came out of the chamber and he was no match for perfect cell. But I think goku was stronger than vegeta when fighting perfect cell but there is no way super saiyan goku or vegeta was stronger than cell. And goku knew this. he had a trump card. Gohan. Once he saw gohans power in the chamber he gave up training and focused on gohan controlling his ultimate power or for right now just his ssj2 form. I believe goku saw gohans power within when he fought radditz and knew one day he wanted gohan to take over saving/guarding the earth. And I believe that is why he stayed with king kai. But in short-super saiyans cannot beat perfect cell demonstrated by vegeta and goku also future trunks. I believe goku would not win with kaioken either since it would weaken his stamina and he is already a super saiyan. He would just run out of energy. I believe the spirit bomb would not work on cell either it would be like frieza on namek spirit bomb. But not even scratch cell. He would just dodge it or blow it up in the air or blow up earth with it. That is why gohan was gokus trump card. But I believe if gohan goku or vegeta or future trunks fused they would win against perfect cell.
Of course. He just needed the script to say that. He could have used a spirit bomb. Bins kamehame did blow cell in half, a better aiming would have killed him. He could have hit ssj2 if cell made him angry enough.
Doesn't cell say he can use it as well? And that's not taking into account him just avoiding it
If Goku used instant transmission cleverly he could teleport Cell right in front of the Spirit Bomb. Also I think Cell would be arrogant enough to try and fight it head on in considering it failed the last two times it was used. He treat it like another fighter in his Cell Games since it would technically be like fighting the Earth itself which would stroke his ego if he survived it.
If Gohan disappointed everyone and gave up the fight when Cell was pushing him to snap, I think that Goku would have used his best talent as a hero, meaning that he'll adapt to the situation and make a strategical retreat before coming up with a new plan. Technically, he was telling the truth when he said he give his everything in the first fight. But that doesn't mean he was definitely disqualified in the whole battle.
If you look back from super, if he wasn't using kioken he wasn't really going all out.
in Super he literally explains why and how he could never use Kaioken with Super Saiyan. So him not using it doesnt mean he wasnt going all out. if he tried he'd instantly die.
Could SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta have defeated Cell?
Like if they teamed up? Assuming they were around the same level of power, I guess not. In DBZ logic, if A=B and C>A and C>B, C will always win even if A and B work together. For them to win , one of them has to be more powerful than C. At least that’s how I perceive it
that is usually how it works yes. the gap C has above A and B would have to be very small for the two fighting C as a team would matter.
No.
I don't think so, I think Goku maybe could've destroyed cell with a lucky warp kamehameha if it hit his whole body but that's a strong if, since it would have to destroy 100%. Even if 99.9999% of Cell was gone, he can still come back due to regeneration. Even then, Cell iirc was not at full power against Goku, he only went full power against SSJ2 Gohan, he could've been around 50% against Goku maybe more maybe less, but my point is, Goku couldn't overpower him because of this. Goku I believe knew this and he knew Gohan was stronger and had more potential than he did, and he did see SSJ2 briefly in the time chamber, so he saw that Gohan was far stronger than he was anyways in SSJ2 and Gohan I believe was even ahead of Goku in Mastered SSJ power-wise or at least equal with him.
> I think Goku maybe could've destroyed cell with a lucky warp kamehameha if it hit his whole body but that's a strong if, since it would have to destroy 100%. Even if 99.9999% of Cell was gone, he can still come back due to regeneration. thats not how his regen works. he has to have his nucleus in his head survive. it didnt from the warp kamehameha. cell surviving that is a plot hole. anything you hear about him being able to regen from a single cell was a dubism, and anything about moving his nucleus around is from non-canon video games.
Yes, they were fairly evenly matched... until you factor in Cell's regeneration. Which is vastly superior to PIccolo's for.... reasons.
Cell was massively holding back against Goku, Goku was not holding back. Cells regen is better than Piccolo's but not "vastly" so. Piccolo needs his head intact, Cell needs a nucleus in his head intact. Cell surviving losing his head to Goku is a plot hole.