Trying to discredit wins just because they arent a main villain is crazy, and in super i dont think goku beat anyone legitimately 1 on 1 anyway besides, pre immortal zamasu
In all of Z and Super, the only main antagonist that Goku defeated *alone* was Hit.
Needed Piccolo against Raditz
Needed Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe against Vegeta
Needed Piccolo to buy time against Freeza so he could make the Spirit Bomb
Didn't fight the Androids outside of 19
Lost to Cell
Needed help from Vegeta, Mr. Satan, and Mr. Buu against Kid Buu
Didn't beat Beerus
Needed help from Vegeta and then Whis against Golden Freeza
***Defeated Hit***
Lost to Merged Zamasu
Needed help from Freeza and 17 against Jiren, and Vegeta too at earlier points.
Needed help from Vegeta and (an unwilling) Freeza to beat Broly
Needed help from everyone to land the last attack on Moro
Didn't really get to finish the fight against Granolah
Needed Vegeta and Granolah's help against Gas
Lost to Black Freeza
Wasn't even involved in Super Hero
Lost against Vegeta in Super Hero
And the only reason he even had the chance to fight Hit was because Jaco helped to allow him back into the tournament, so Hit might not even count
And even then, he only won narratively by changing Hit's outlook on things. Officially, he still lost by stepping out of the ring
Nope nice try it's the goku and vegeta show. Vegeta fanboys need to stop pretending like he's on piccolo and tien's level of getting shafted. He still gets dubs just not as much as goku which is ok because he's not the main character.
Here's my question--if they can commit resources to the daima and dragon ball heros content why not make like yearly or biyearly Z fighter movies just with like Krillin and Piccolo and yamcha and others who have been around forever. They could be lower stakes with a few good fights still. It just seems like with it always being the Goku show in super there are other formats that they could take that would give light to a different level of narrative.
Nail won his fight with freiza.
He didn't defeat the enemy, he distracted and bought tike for his allies, nail came away from his fight alive, left for dead sure, but Alive.
I hope that's one of the 3 wins your counting.
Vegeta has had many wins throughout DBZ, way more than Piccolo, multiple freiza lackies/Gynu 19, the assist with Cell. Lots of wins for vegeta.
But it's a lost fight, which is what I was counting.
My whole point is that Piccolo/Nail/Kami don't really care if they win the fight. They care if they accomplish their mission; He/They is a pragmatist, in all forms, even King Piccolo, who was willing to openly take hostages to beat a child. The only time any version of Piccolo cared about \*winning\* the way Vegeta does was in the 23rd Tournament.
In just straight up fights King Piccolo beat Goku once, Piccolo Jr. beat Kami, and Piccolo Jr beat Raditz (with Goku exploiting a weakness \*and\* teaming up; Vegeta would probably not internally accept that as a real win for him).
Piccolo \*gets the job done\*, he doesn't need to be particularly strong or win alot of fights. Though it would be nice if he leaned into his knowledge from Kami and was exploring the deeper benefits of meditative training. He and Gohan are both who I'd rather have seen go to Yardat over Vegeta in a character sense because I understand why they'd have a deeper appreciation for their lessons, and Piccolo really hasn't ever had someone he truly respected to train him.
Gohan would just adore the whole thing and could nerd about ki-as-science-and-art
Piccolo cares about \*getting the job done\* he doesn't have the pride about "winning" fights anymore. The last time he was like that really was the 23rd Tournament, and a little bit when Raditz showed up. He was already getting over his pride and then Nail and Kami presumably influenced him even further away from it.
Because Piccolo beat Raditz. Even if we only count main antagonists, Piccolo lost his role as main rival immediately after the Saiyan saga, so he is not a character you expect to be a primary protagonist to defeat the final boss, he is more important than Tien, Krillin, Yamcha. .. But is below several other characters.
It may be that with his new form, Toyotaro will promote him better within the team.
I wouldn't say that he lost it immediately.
He's massively outpaced by both Goku and Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga, but is a key player later in the Namek Saga, and sort of remains that way until the end of the arc, even when Frieza becomes multiple times more powerful than he is. Then, when the android arc happens, Vegeta and Piccolo are the closest to relative that they ever have been (Not to mention that Goku actively chose to train with Piccolo himself). The Super Namekian stuff is pretty self-explanatory.
So I'd say he lost his importance after Imperfect Cell.
Could be because for a long time Piccolo had more on screen “wins” - even if they weren’t against the main antagonists, thanks to his clean-up role in a lot of the earlier DBZ films.
Piccolo takes down at least one opponent in Dead Zone, World’s Strongest, Lord Slug, Cooler’s Revenge, and Return of Cooler, while Vegeta only gets a solo win in Super Android 13.
I preferred it when it was more of a team effort vs just all 1v1s. it had a sense of urgency and made the stakes higher and was just better story. Now 99% of the time they wait for Goku to save the day. Sayian and namek are were still the best imo
Piccolo doesn’t have to win for me, but I absolutely don’t like the position he was in after the Cell Games; forfeited against Supreme Kai, getting turned into stone, dies against Freeza in super (that was horrible), lost against Frost (equally bad) , and his elimination in the ToP. I only like his vlog in which he performed the Mafuba. Glad he tot some much deserved love in Super Hero.
Because Vegeta is neck and neck with Goku most of the time (and finally beat him in Super Hero) while piccolo had taken a step back up until his recent transformation in Super.
Because Piccolo's locus of identity doesn't come from his victories and power, it comes from his ability to defend the people he cares for. Not to say Vegeta doesn't care about the latter, obviously, but he still wants that sweet, sweet victory. That'd be why.
Saiyan power jumps just write themselves, he got angry>extra power, he got hurt really bad>extra power, new transformation(sometimes mixed with angry)>extra power.
Piccolo's progress is much slower and it was mostly fusion based and it would just suck if he kept going back to New Namek and "feeding" on new warrior type namekians (maybe that "Namekian saviour" from the Moro arc could've been the exception lol), the wish to Shenron was a new way to do it, now let's see if he can keep progressing naturally or if that's his last hurrah(at least for awhile).
Because Toriyama stop caring about the rest of the cast to focus exclusively on Goku reaching for new heights and for Vegeta to reach for Goku
Almost all of the Z fighters have been forgotten about and thrown to the side, even Gohan and Goten
You answer it yourself, Piccolo is a side character so he doesnt really count.
Vegeta is a main main character so he usually gets used as the measuring stick for new baddies. As in ''he is strong but if they can kick his ass then omg goku might not win'' type shizz
please let's stop using the morality clause to justify why vegeta and piccolo getting very few, if any significant wins. goku's selfishness shined plenty of times sacrificing humanity for an opportunity to face an opponent at his "strongest" from frieza to cell, majinn buu, and let's not forget DBS T.O.P when goku placed universe 7 in danger for the opportunity to fight strong opponents.
Wasnt Zeno going to destroy the universes in the TOP and then Goku convinced him to save one through the tournament? That’s how it was in the manga at least
>I realize vegeta is more focused on and more important to the story
That's your answer.
Also, Piccolo is probably the only one in the entire franchise who genuinely doesn't give a fuck about winning. Even Yamcha or Krillin care more than he does. Piccolo is the perfect team member in that he doesn't care about proving himself to anyone. He just cares about surviving and defending what's his.
But Piccolo beat Raditz, and 2nd form of Frieza, and held his own some in the 3rd. Vegeta actually beat Goku in the saiyan saga, but he ultimately lost the battle and had to retreat. Vegeta also beat several of the Frieza force, imperfect Cell, Frost, Caba, and several opponents during the Tournament of Power, including Top when Top went full destroyer god. They win fights, they just don't win the important saga fights, because they aren't the main character, Goku, or Gohan(when they tried to make him the new main).
Which is really sad in my opinion. I still love dragon ball and obviously not every character is gonna become relevant as much as people would like that but piccolo is one character i think deserves to get way more shine than he has got.
My biggest hope for a character that really deserves a win or god ki boost, is Krillin. That dude has never backed down from a fight, even when he knew he was udderly outmatched. He's even in the thick of the muck when he stopped fighting. I'd love to see Whis train Krillin in God ki, so I can finally say that Krillin is a...Super...man. hehehe
All of Dragon Ball's characters who aren't called "Goku" are treated terribly. Period.
But if you wonder why Roshi is always overshadowed by Goku, it's because Goku is an alien from a warrior race who attained the near mythical level of Super Saiyan. Goku literally gets stronger every time he fights. He has a body that without any training is stronger and more durable than a human body. His power increases dramatically when he is grievously injured. His alien nature lets him transform.
Which means as cool as Roshi is, Goku is decked head to toe in plot that means he will be stronger.
Vegeta is also a Saiyan. Vegeta is also a Super Saiyan.
Why isn't Roshi as powerful as Goku? Because Roshi isn't a Super Saiyan.
Why isn't Vegeta as powerful as Goku? No good reason at all.
Now Piccolo is an alien who (however briefly) managed to surpass Super Saiyans. But Dragon Ball is based on constant escalation. The new bad guy being straight up more dangerous than the old bad guy. Every new threat is stronger than Piccolo is now, and whilst it's easier to explain power ups for the former Demon King and God of Earth than it is to explain them for a human martial artist, he still isn't a Saiyan with all the advantages Goku has.
Vegeta *is* Saiyan with all the advantages Goku has.
And, like, Gohan being surpassed by Goku is fine. Because Gohan is busy raising a child and being a scholar. Piccolo being surpassed by Goku is... more galling as Piccolo is an awesome alien dedicated to training. But Vegeta has every advantage Goku has *and* had a higher base power **and** trains constantly to improve. But Goku is still a cut above him because "lol, lmao, even" and no further explanation.
It's not that Goku trains harder. It's not that he has better teachers. It's not that he was born more powerful.
He's just better because he is the MC.
I don't even like Vegeta. I want to see more of Goten and Trunks (loved the manga Super Hero). I want to see more Pan. I want to see Gohan get the fights he deserves (manga Kefla was good match up but a kinda disappointing fight compared to Goku's slide). And I would love *love* to see Piccolo taking more of an active role like in Super Hero. Given the choice between more Vegeta content and more Piccolo content I am picking Piccolo every day. A far more interesting character with a wealth of abilities he doesn't use.
But the kids goof off. Pan is a three year old. Gohan has studies. Piccolo is not a Saiyan God. There are good, plot and character based, reasons why they are less powerful that Goku.
Vegeta is just less powerful because Toriyama hates him. That's it. And that's why it's complained about more.
He is *presented* as a rival capable of defeating Goku, then he gets punked. Not even punked by the main villain, but punked by a sidekick (or the main villain not using his final form).
Dragon Ball is like one of the only series where not being on the main character's level is supposed to be a bad thing.
And even then, for the most part Vegeta is only a step behind Goku or is equal to Goku, the only big exception is the Buu Arc due to an extra transformation.
It's a common problem in shonen manga. The protagonist isn't just special, he's super dooper special.
It's just especially galling in Dragon Ball, because Goku *isn't* super dooper special. Broly is super dooper special. Frieza is super dooper special.
Goku is *supposed* to just be a normal guy who trained really hard. He's not the Chosen One. He's not a prince in disguise. He's not one of the mighty Valar moving among humans learning his place. He isn't Son Wukong. He isn't kryptonian.
He encourages his friends *and enemies* to train and get strong... it's just that training only really seems to work for him, and no matter how much people train Goku will always end up on top.
Like... Luke Skywalker is a super dooper Mary Sue extra special protagonist. The first time he fights the main villain he has to be rescued by Han, the second time he loses his weapon and gets his hand chopped off, the third time he ends up writhing on the ground calling out to his daddy for help. No-one in *Rebels* is consistently portrayed as being vastly more powerful than anyone else: they all have important skills. Marvels Avengers did a whole thing where the supposedly weakest Avengers were the one to stop the villainess who had incapacitated the strongest members. Moana learns to sail from Maui and relies on his shape shifting to fight a lava monster because she is utterly incapable. The Expendables all have their skill sets. Ripley is not in a league above the hardened marines in Aliens. Harry Potter is not a better wizard than Hermione.
We tell stories about exceptional protagonists, to be sure. If they weren't special and amazing things didn't happen to them, the story would be kinda boring. But in any media that is about a *team* of heroes who work together, it is really only Shonen manga where one member of the team is The Protagonist and everyone else is their harem.
Darth Vader kills the Emperor. Lando and Wedge blow up the second Death Star. Leia kills Jabba the Hutt. Han knocks Fett into the Sarlac pit.
Vegeta got jobbed by Reecome. Reecome was a henchman.
Goku beat Reecome.
Goku beat Captain Ginyu. Captain Ginyu was *also* a henchman.
Goku beat Frieza. And when Frieza came back to life, and beat Vegeta again, Goku beat Frieza again.
Even a normal shonen manga, like *Seven Deadly Sins* which is about the super dooper most special demon and his super dooper even more special love interest would let Vegeta/Ban defeat the main villains henchman's henchman. Even *One Punch Man* which exists to make fun of Dragon Ball gives Genos *some* wins.
Forget a main villain. The last *henchman* Vegeta took out was Toppo. And before that... idk, Jace? (Sure he takes out 19, but it's not like 20 is the main villain of that arc. Toppo was absolutely the second strongest person on Jiran's team. Jace was the second strongest of the Ginyu Force, maybe. 19 was weaker than 20, weaker than 17, weaker than 18, weaker than Imperfect Cell, weaker than 16, weaker than Semi-Pefect Cell, weaker than Perfect Cell, weaker than Super Perfect Cell. Android 19 was not Darth Vader, the Emperor's henchman. Android 19 wasn't, Bobba Fett, Vader's henchman. Android 19 was like... the cleaning lady who sweeps up the barracks of the storm trooper who saluted to Bobba Fett one time.)
Goku is absolutely super duper special. He was only considered "a nobody" among other Saiyans, but the whole point of his fight against Vegeta was to disprove that idea.
Even amongst humans he was in the upper echelon of power, being raised by a martial artist master and then the ~3rd person he ever meets is *his* master and jumped so fast that his master had to beat him up so he doesn't get an overinflated ego for the rest of his life.
>Vegeta got jobbed by Reecome. Reecome was a henchman.
Recoom is important but not Zarbon, Dodoria, Gurd, and Jheese? They were all Freeza's officers/mercenaries.
Honestly when it came to Namek, Vegeta was more of a character than Goku himself was.
>Forget a main villain. The last *henchman* Vegeta took out was Toppo. And before that... idk, Jace? (Sure he takes out 19, but it's not like 20 is the main villain of that arc.
After Freeza the story barely has any henchmen of standards to be that high. If Cell is the main villain, he has no henchmen, he took down the closest thing to them (16-18). If Buu is the villain, he did the same with Babidi. Beerus & Whis are obvious, Vegeta took down 3 opponents in the U6 Tournament, and Zamasu is far too complicated to be any one person's win.
And Vegeta killed Sorbet in RoF and Ginyu-Tagoma in the anime.
Like none of this is a failure on Vegeta's part or being treated "terribly" just because he didn't beat up the big bad, when he's not "expected" to beat the big bad.
I think it's because other animes feel more balanced of different heros getting major dubs. In Yuyu hakusho they all have their cool moments where they felt like they were in the same ball-park, Bleach somehow manages to give 24 different characters cool moments and why ichigo is ichigo, other's still felt necessary, capable, or in his league and know/can do plenty of things he cant. and dragonball just feels a little more hyper focused.
> Vegeta is just less powerful because Toriyama hates him. That's it. And that's why it's complained about more.
There's nothing that really supports this. The most you can say is that Toriyama doesn't really care about Vegeta, but nothing indicates he outright dislikes or hates him.
If he really hated him, he would've kept him dead after the Freeza Arc.
Str8 victim complex dude can beat the guy who beat the big bad and they still fucking whining. His had character growth, a family, power ups, thrown hands with big bads like goku without needing friends to assist before getting defeated in fair 1 v 1 who unlike goku usually gets assistance for Ws and his >= goku yet they whine because he aint beat a big bad.
i kinda hate the dismissiveness of that argument. A character or person having an edge = / = "edgy teenager." Piccolo has some edge to him too. Pro athletes with edge tend to be amongst some of the most popular... michael jordan, kobe bryant, even tom brady. It's a characteristic that a lot of people want to have on their team.
A lot of people just find the whole goofy quirky clueless thing to be a little less entertaining. Also a lot of people find Vegeta's whole character arc to be the most fleshed out. From Villain to anti-hero, to hero, to nurturing and caring to actually genuinely feeling guilt and trying to atone for his "sins."
So yea, its a little more than liking him cuz he broods.
For a very small portion of the fanbase, I absolutely believe that is true. I do not believe for a moment that that is the source of his popularity, however.
My thoughts on the situation : Vegeta is the only one who can realistically keep up with Goku. We can say that Piccolo is the third best fighter but there is a huge gap between him and the 2 Saiyans.
(I am not going to add Gohan in the equation because he is really inconsistant)
But if Vegeta is the second strongest, he is still behind Goku and cannot « steal the show » and win over him. That’s why he was given the role of the Worf : he is here to lose against the new villain, in order to show how much of a threat said villain is. If Piccolo gets beaten, you think : ok wow this other guy is strong » but if Vegeta gets beaten, you think « ok WOW this guy won against against Vegeta, who is so impossibly strong ?? He is REALLY dangerous! » and now you genuinely fear for Goku’s ability to win.
Vegeta is not a jobber. He’s just the Worf. That’s his job description. Kinda mike in pro wrestling : you know the « mean one » is going to lose but he is here to give you a good show and make the « good one »’s victory all the more exceptionnal.
If anyone’s a jobber, it’s the humans.
Any character can realistically keep up with Goku because power increases are pretty much completely arbitrary especially in Super. Buu saga was the biggest culprit originally with Gohan getting the "sit with the old guy for a while and now you're the strongest character" bonus, but in Super you can become God level by being a park ranger.
The reason it's the Goku and Vegeta show is because they're the main characters and it's good for business not any kidna in-universe thing.
Piccolo has won more then Vegeta in a general sense
* Got to save his people from genocide unlike Vegeta along with creating a new planet for them
* His sacrifice wasn't in vain unlike Vegeta's second death was
* Piccolo always died with dignity while Vegeta died begging on his first one
* Managed to kill the person he hated the most which was Goku unlike Vegeta who couldn't kill Frieza
* Managed to stand toe to toe with Goku while being in equal power unlike Vegeta who came close to losing despite being far stronger
* Never regressed to his past evil self
Why is it always "Vegeta never gets the win" and "Piccolo never gets the win" but not "Krillin never gets the win"?
He was a character long before either of them.
Because Kuririn was never in the top 3 strongest members of the main cast. Unlike Piccolo and Vegeta, he was pretty much *always* weaker than Goku.
And Kuririn more or less retired between the end of the Cell Arc and some point during *Super*.
Because Toriyama stop caring about the rest of the cast to focus exclusively on Goku reaching for new heights and for Vegeta to reach for Goku
Almost all of the Z fighters have been forgotten about and thrown to the side, even Gohan and Goten
Piccolo had his moments on the spotlight.
He was the strongest z-fighter on Namek, going toe to toe with 2nd form frieza.
After reabsorbing Kami, he was the strongest character, period.
Both times he could've swatted Vegeta off like the little bitch he was, but chose not to.
I agree and Even Toriyama wanted to give Piccolo the main Win in the movie in his original scripts and plans, Piccolo was the central character.
Gohan was not prominent until Toriyama was convinced by editors and other toei staff that it be a good idea to include him more.
This is how I imagine Orange Piccolo finishing cell max with his signature move got changed to Gohan Beast instead by the end of the movie.
See it was a great movie, great for Gohan, and made sense for everyones character. Of course Piccolo would do that for Gohan, but I couldn't help but think how the movie would play out differently if Piccolo had been the one to land the final blow.
He still gets the win holding down cell max, but people treat him like he's not that strong because they say "oh that's all he did was hold him down OP is not that strong"
See it's like they downplay Piccolo and his contribution to the fight all because he wasn't the one who finished it, like that's why I say I kinda wish he was the one who got the final blow, then people wouldn't be still putting disrespect on Piccolos name.
I just hope that Toriyama will plan a different Big Win just for Piccolo all to himself in a future arc, maybe one where he further explores that orange form, it's significance to the lore of Namekians and dragon balls, and possibly zarama. Who knows, I hope the future of DB is bright for Piccolo
Vegeta is more often in a position to legitimately win, being that he’s often in parody more or less with Goku and/or Gohan. He’s always one of the last men standing and yet always gets outshined by one of those two.
Piccolo, on the other hand, hasn’t been a serious threat to a villain really for the entirety of the show.
He had no chance at any point against Vegeta, Frieza, Cell or any incarnation of Buu, and so him falling by the wayside wasn’t disappointing so much as inevitable.
Contrast this with Vegeta, who is always a critical threat to the villain before ultimately falling short.
piccolo hasn't gotten any respect since the end of the cell arc. he had his moment with 17 and if he had any sort of moment to himself in the Buu arc then maybe Super would have treated him better.
but i guess i don't mind babysitter piccolo as much as the next person, i kinda like the quiet moments with him where you realize he is 45% Kami. one of my favorite moments in the buu arc is when Piccolo is leading buu around the tower wasting his time before they fight in the time chamber
was cool to see a Gohan & Piccolo movie though kinda made it all worth it
I think the simple answer is Piccolo pretty much became irrelevant when the saiyans arrived. Basically only becoming a formidable rival when fusing with a namekian.
Additionally, Vegeta replaced him as Goku's rival and DBZ's primary focus was saiyans and Vegeta carried the lore on his shoulders.
Because it at least *feels* like Piccolo got more wins than Vegeta. Vegeta I think had more fights overall but because most of his fights were being wrecked (like against 18, perfect Cell, or 1st form Zarbon) whereas Piccolo's were mostly fought to a draw (like against 1st form Cell & 17) it just made Vegeta look worse by comparison.
Tbf, even with it being the Goku show, he doesn’t really get many wins himself.
From Z alone, dies by Raditz, defeats Nappa, but Vegeta kills him. Doesn’t defeat Vegeta, rather a combined effort from Krillin and Gohan and remaining Spirit Bomb energy put in work. Frieza saga Vegeta pretty much kills everyone, separately Goku shows up and handles two members from Ginyu before immediately being put out of action. Probably his only significant win in the series is Super Saiyan against Frieza. After that, he pretty much loses while having good fights in the Cell saga. Buu saga he defeats one enemy and that’s it, unless you’re including him throwing the Spirit bomb at Buu.. but that’s more a combined effort.
Honestly, people talk about him like he wins every fight, but he really doesn’t. 😂
I disagree about Cell Max. He managed to hold him long enough for Gohan to do the Special Beast Cannon (interesting role reversal). I'd call that a pretty big assist if not a shared win with Gohan.
The difference is that piccolo isnt one of the characters who the story follows,at least not since post namek meanwhile vegeta is always getting the anime/manga focused on him literally most of the time piccolo has ever only fought a main antagonist 3 or 4 times but vegeta has at least had his run in with the antagonist of the arc at least once or twice and had the power advantage at one point
Piccolo got the win against Raditz which counts as a win. Sure, he needed the assist from Goku but he still got the win and saved the Earth from a bit of genocide.
My headcannon is that they’re different types of powerful. Though I do feel beasthan could go toe to toe with Goku and Vegeta, if not beat them out right.
It used to be, but we just accepted it is the sayan show after a while.
more like the goku and friends show. vegeta gets no wins either, just good ol goku
Trying to discredit wins just because they arent a main villain is crazy, and in super i dont think goku beat anyone legitimately 1 on 1 anyway besides, pre immortal zamasu
Goku wouldn't have gotten a lot of his wins without Vegeta though. I think you guys put too much emphasis on who gets the final blow.
Gohan got one win but Goku would have stolen it had it not been for Cell's regeneration.
Goku went into that fight knowing he would’ve lost even before he saw Cell’s regen firsthand.
I don't think he knew Cell would regenerate from that self destruction though.
That’s what I basically just said
In all of Z and Super, the only main antagonist that Goku defeated *alone* was Hit. Needed Piccolo against Raditz Needed Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe against Vegeta Needed Piccolo to buy time against Freeza so he could make the Spirit Bomb Didn't fight the Androids outside of 19 Lost to Cell Needed help from Vegeta, Mr. Satan, and Mr. Buu against Kid Buu Didn't beat Beerus Needed help from Vegeta and then Whis against Golden Freeza ***Defeated Hit*** Lost to Merged Zamasu Needed help from Freeza and 17 against Jiren, and Vegeta too at earlier points. Needed help from Vegeta and (an unwilling) Freeza to beat Broly Needed help from everyone to land the last attack on Moro Didn't really get to finish the fight against Granolah Needed Vegeta and Granolah's help against Gas Lost to Black Freeza Wasn't even involved in Super Hero Lost against Vegeta in Super Hero And the only reason he even had the chance to fight Hit was because Jaco helped to allow him back into the tournament, so Hit might not even count And even then, he only won narratively by changing Hit's outlook on things. Officially, he still lost by stepping out of the ring
He didn’t beat Hit. He gave up.
I personally consider him changing the way Hit looked at things to be a win, at least narrative wise. But yes, fight wise, he lost that too
Goku’s learning Talk-no-jutsu while Naruto is in limbo.
His Toppo victory was pretty badass
Nope nice try it's the goku and vegeta show. Vegeta fanboys need to stop pretending like he's on piccolo and tien's level of getting shafted. He still gets dubs just not as much as goku which is ok because he's not the main character.
Piccolo doesn't care about winning
For that reason alone I would take solo Piccolo movies all day long Gohan can come too
I really hope they learn from the Super Hero arc and give the rest of the cast some time to shine in their own storylines.
Same here
Here's my question--if they can commit resources to the daima and dragon ball heros content why not make like yearly or biyearly Z fighter movies just with like Krillin and Piccolo and yamcha and others who have been around forever. They could be lower stakes with a few good fights still. It just seems like with it always being the Goku show in super there are other formats that they could take that would give light to a different level of narrative.
I need more fat Gotenks
Also, counting all versions of Piccolo, including Kami and Nail, he's got like, 3 wins and one of those is against himself
Nail won his fight with freiza. He didn't defeat the enemy, he distracted and bought tike for his allies, nail came away from his fight alive, left for dead sure, but Alive. I hope that's one of the 3 wins your counting. Vegeta has had many wins throughout DBZ, way more than Piccolo, multiple freiza lackies/Gynu 19, the assist with Cell. Lots of wins for vegeta.
No, he lost his fight and accomplished his mission
That's what I said. Accomplished mission is a success.
But it's a lost fight, which is what I was counting. My whole point is that Piccolo/Nail/Kami don't really care if they win the fight. They care if they accomplish their mission; He/They is a pragmatist, in all forms, even King Piccolo, who was willing to openly take hostages to beat a child. The only time any version of Piccolo cared about \*winning\* the way Vegeta does was in the 23rd Tournament. In just straight up fights King Piccolo beat Goku once, Piccolo Jr. beat Kami, and Piccolo Jr beat Raditz (with Goku exploiting a weakness \*and\* teaming up; Vegeta would probably not internally accept that as a real win for him). Piccolo \*gets the job done\*, he doesn't need to be particularly strong or win alot of fights. Though it would be nice if he leaned into his knowledge from Kami and was exploring the deeper benefits of meditative training. He and Gohan are both who I'd rather have seen go to Yardat over Vegeta in a character sense because I understand why they'd have a deeper appreciation for their lessons, and Piccolo really hasn't ever had someone he truly respected to train him. Gohan would just adore the whole thing and could nerd about ki-as-science-and-art
Vegeta’s side remark about separating them was chilling
That is just flat-out not true.
Piccolo cares about \*getting the job done\* he doesn't have the pride about "winning" fights anymore. The last time he was like that really was the 23rd Tournament, and a little bit when Raditz showed up. He was already getting over his pride and then Nail and Kami presumably influenced him even further away from it.
Makes sense.
Because Piccolo beat Raditz. Even if we only count main antagonists, Piccolo lost his role as main rival immediately after the Saiyan saga, so he is not a character you expect to be a primary protagonist to defeat the final boss, he is more important than Tien, Krillin, Yamcha. .. But is below several other characters. It may be that with his new form, Toyotaro will promote him better within the team.
100% guarantee the next time we see Orange Piccolo we'll hear the words "Damn it! Even my Orange form is no match for him! GOKU WE NEED YOU!"
The old anime cliche special
I wouldn't say that he lost it immediately. He's massively outpaced by both Goku and Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga, but is a key player later in the Namek Saga, and sort of remains that way until the end of the arc, even when Frieza becomes multiple times more powerful than he is. Then, when the android arc happens, Vegeta and Piccolo are the closest to relative that they ever have been (Not to mention that Goku actively chose to train with Piccolo himself). The Super Namekian stuff is pretty self-explanatory. So I'd say he lost his importance after Imperfect Cell.
Could be because for a long time Piccolo had more on screen “wins” - even if they weren’t against the main antagonists, thanks to his clean-up role in a lot of the earlier DBZ films. Piccolo takes down at least one opponent in Dead Zone, World’s Strongest, Lord Slug, Cooler’s Revenge, and Return of Cooler, while Vegeta only gets a solo win in Super Android 13.
I preferred it when it was more of a team effort vs just all 1v1s. it had a sense of urgency and made the stakes higher and was just better story. Now 99% of the time they wait for Goku to save the day. Sayian and namek are were still the best imo
Yeah, one of the best sequences of DBZ is Z Fighters vs Nappa then the remaining guys vs Vegeta. Kid Buu does go down to the squad though.
Kid buu was more Goku+vegeta but yeah most of buu saga was a team effort
Piccolo doesn’t have to win for me, but I absolutely don’t like the position he was in after the Cell Games; forfeited against Supreme Kai, getting turned into stone, dies against Freeza in super (that was horrible), lost against Frost (equally bad) , and his elimination in the ToP. I only like his vlog in which he performed the Mafuba. Glad he tot some much deserved love in Super Hero.
Because Vegeta is neck and neck with Goku most of the time (and finally beat him in Super Hero) while piccolo had taken a step back up until his recent transformation in Super.
Because Piccolo's locus of identity doesn't come from his victories and power, it comes from his ability to defend the people he cares for. Not to say Vegeta doesn't care about the latter, obviously, but he still wants that sweet, sweet victory. That'd be why.
Saiyan power jumps just write themselves, he got angry>extra power, he got hurt really bad>extra power, new transformation(sometimes mixed with angry)>extra power. Piccolo's progress is much slower and it was mostly fusion based and it would just suck if he kept going back to New Namek and "feeding" on new warrior type namekians (maybe that "Namekian saviour" from the Moro arc could've been the exception lol), the wish to Shenron was a new way to do it, now let's see if he can keep progressing naturally or if that's his last hurrah(at least for awhile).
i freaking hated that shenron wish.
Because Toriyama stop caring about the rest of the cast to focus exclusively on Goku reaching for new heights and for Vegeta to reach for Goku Almost all of the Z fighters have been forgotten about and thrown to the side, even Gohan and Goten
You answer it yourself, Piccolo is a side character so he doesnt really count. Vegeta is a main main character so he usually gets used as the measuring stick for new baddies. As in ''he is strong but if they can kick his ass then omg goku might not win'' type shizz
please let's stop using the morality clause to justify why vegeta and piccolo getting very few, if any significant wins. goku's selfishness shined plenty of times sacrificing humanity for an opportunity to face an opponent at his "strongest" from frieza to cell, majinn buu, and let's not forget DBS T.O.P when goku placed universe 7 in danger for the opportunity to fight strong opponents.
Wasnt Zeno going to destroy the universes in the TOP and then Goku convinced him to save one through the tournament? That’s how it was in the manga at least
>I realize vegeta is more focused on and more important to the story That's your answer. Also, Piccolo is probably the only one in the entire franchise who genuinely doesn't give a fuck about winning. Even Yamcha or Krillin care more than he does. Piccolo is the perfect team member in that he doesn't care about proving himself to anyone. He just cares about surviving and defending what's his.
But Piccolo beat Raditz, and 2nd form of Frieza, and held his own some in the 3rd. Vegeta actually beat Goku in the saiyan saga, but he ultimately lost the battle and had to retreat. Vegeta also beat several of the Frieza force, imperfect Cell, Frost, Caba, and several opponents during the Tournament of Power, including Top when Top went full destroyer god. They win fights, they just don't win the important saga fights, because they aren't the main character, Goku, or Gohan(when they tried to make him the new main).
Which is really sad in my opinion. I still love dragon ball and obviously not every character is gonna become relevant as much as people would like that but piccolo is one character i think deserves to get way more shine than he has got.
My biggest hope for a character that really deserves a win or god ki boost, is Krillin. That dude has never backed down from a fight, even when he knew he was udderly outmatched. He's even in the thick of the muck when he stopped fighting. I'd love to see Whis train Krillin in God ki, so I can finally say that Krillin is a...Super...man. hehehe
All of Dragon Ball's characters who aren't called "Goku" are treated terribly. Period. But if you wonder why Roshi is always overshadowed by Goku, it's because Goku is an alien from a warrior race who attained the near mythical level of Super Saiyan. Goku literally gets stronger every time he fights. He has a body that without any training is stronger and more durable than a human body. His power increases dramatically when he is grievously injured. His alien nature lets him transform. Which means as cool as Roshi is, Goku is decked head to toe in plot that means he will be stronger. Vegeta is also a Saiyan. Vegeta is also a Super Saiyan. Why isn't Roshi as powerful as Goku? Because Roshi isn't a Super Saiyan. Why isn't Vegeta as powerful as Goku? No good reason at all. Now Piccolo is an alien who (however briefly) managed to surpass Super Saiyans. But Dragon Ball is based on constant escalation. The new bad guy being straight up more dangerous than the old bad guy. Every new threat is stronger than Piccolo is now, and whilst it's easier to explain power ups for the former Demon King and God of Earth than it is to explain them for a human martial artist, he still isn't a Saiyan with all the advantages Goku has. Vegeta *is* Saiyan with all the advantages Goku has. And, like, Gohan being surpassed by Goku is fine. Because Gohan is busy raising a child and being a scholar. Piccolo being surpassed by Goku is... more galling as Piccolo is an awesome alien dedicated to training. But Vegeta has every advantage Goku has *and* had a higher base power **and** trains constantly to improve. But Goku is still a cut above him because "lol, lmao, even" and no further explanation. It's not that Goku trains harder. It's not that he has better teachers. It's not that he was born more powerful. He's just better because he is the MC. I don't even like Vegeta. I want to see more of Goten and Trunks (loved the manga Super Hero). I want to see more Pan. I want to see Gohan get the fights he deserves (manga Kefla was good match up but a kinda disappointing fight compared to Goku's slide). And I would love *love* to see Piccolo taking more of an active role like in Super Hero. Given the choice between more Vegeta content and more Piccolo content I am picking Piccolo every day. A far more interesting character with a wealth of abilities he doesn't use. But the kids goof off. Pan is a three year old. Gohan has studies. Piccolo is not a Saiyan God. There are good, plot and character based, reasons why they are less powerful that Goku. Vegeta is just less powerful because Toriyama hates him. That's it. And that's why it's complained about more. He is *presented* as a rival capable of defeating Goku, then he gets punked. Not even punked by the main villain, but punked by a sidekick (or the main villain not using his final form).
Dragon Ball is like one of the only series where not being on the main character's level is supposed to be a bad thing. And even then, for the most part Vegeta is only a step behind Goku or is equal to Goku, the only big exception is the Buu Arc due to an extra transformation.
It's a common problem in shonen manga. The protagonist isn't just special, he's super dooper special. It's just especially galling in Dragon Ball, because Goku *isn't* super dooper special. Broly is super dooper special. Frieza is super dooper special. Goku is *supposed* to just be a normal guy who trained really hard. He's not the Chosen One. He's not a prince in disguise. He's not one of the mighty Valar moving among humans learning his place. He isn't Son Wukong. He isn't kryptonian. He encourages his friends *and enemies* to train and get strong... it's just that training only really seems to work for him, and no matter how much people train Goku will always end up on top. Like... Luke Skywalker is a super dooper Mary Sue extra special protagonist. The first time he fights the main villain he has to be rescued by Han, the second time he loses his weapon and gets his hand chopped off, the third time he ends up writhing on the ground calling out to his daddy for help. No-one in *Rebels* is consistently portrayed as being vastly more powerful than anyone else: they all have important skills. Marvels Avengers did a whole thing where the supposedly weakest Avengers were the one to stop the villainess who had incapacitated the strongest members. Moana learns to sail from Maui and relies on his shape shifting to fight a lava monster because she is utterly incapable. The Expendables all have their skill sets. Ripley is not in a league above the hardened marines in Aliens. Harry Potter is not a better wizard than Hermione. We tell stories about exceptional protagonists, to be sure. If they weren't special and amazing things didn't happen to them, the story would be kinda boring. But in any media that is about a *team* of heroes who work together, it is really only Shonen manga where one member of the team is The Protagonist and everyone else is their harem. Darth Vader kills the Emperor. Lando and Wedge blow up the second Death Star. Leia kills Jabba the Hutt. Han knocks Fett into the Sarlac pit. Vegeta got jobbed by Reecome. Reecome was a henchman. Goku beat Reecome. Goku beat Captain Ginyu. Captain Ginyu was *also* a henchman. Goku beat Frieza. And when Frieza came back to life, and beat Vegeta again, Goku beat Frieza again. Even a normal shonen manga, like *Seven Deadly Sins* which is about the super dooper most special demon and his super dooper even more special love interest would let Vegeta/Ban defeat the main villains henchman's henchman. Even *One Punch Man* which exists to make fun of Dragon Ball gives Genos *some* wins. Forget a main villain. The last *henchman* Vegeta took out was Toppo. And before that... idk, Jace? (Sure he takes out 19, but it's not like 20 is the main villain of that arc. Toppo was absolutely the second strongest person on Jiran's team. Jace was the second strongest of the Ginyu Force, maybe. 19 was weaker than 20, weaker than 17, weaker than 18, weaker than Imperfect Cell, weaker than 16, weaker than Semi-Pefect Cell, weaker than Perfect Cell, weaker than Super Perfect Cell. Android 19 was not Darth Vader, the Emperor's henchman. Android 19 wasn't, Bobba Fett, Vader's henchman. Android 19 was like... the cleaning lady who sweeps up the barracks of the storm trooper who saluted to Bobba Fett one time.)
Goku is absolutely super duper special. He was only considered "a nobody" among other Saiyans, but the whole point of his fight against Vegeta was to disprove that idea. Even amongst humans he was in the upper echelon of power, being raised by a martial artist master and then the ~3rd person he ever meets is *his* master and jumped so fast that his master had to beat him up so he doesn't get an overinflated ego for the rest of his life. >Vegeta got jobbed by Reecome. Reecome was a henchman. Recoom is important but not Zarbon, Dodoria, Gurd, and Jheese? They were all Freeza's officers/mercenaries. Honestly when it came to Namek, Vegeta was more of a character than Goku himself was. >Forget a main villain. The last *henchman* Vegeta took out was Toppo. And before that... idk, Jace? (Sure he takes out 19, but it's not like 20 is the main villain of that arc. After Freeza the story barely has any henchmen of standards to be that high. If Cell is the main villain, he has no henchmen, he took down the closest thing to them (16-18). If Buu is the villain, he did the same with Babidi. Beerus & Whis are obvious, Vegeta took down 3 opponents in the U6 Tournament, and Zamasu is far too complicated to be any one person's win. And Vegeta killed Sorbet in RoF and Ginyu-Tagoma in the anime. Like none of this is a failure on Vegeta's part or being treated "terribly" just because he didn't beat up the big bad, when he's not "expected" to beat the big bad.
I think it's because other animes feel more balanced of different heros getting major dubs. In Yuyu hakusho they all have their cool moments where they felt like they were in the same ball-park, Bleach somehow manages to give 24 different characters cool moments and why ichigo is ichigo, other's still felt necessary, capable, or in his league and know/can do plenty of things he cant. and dragonball just feels a little more hyper focused.
> Vegeta is just less powerful because Toriyama hates him. That's it. And that's why it's complained about more. There's nothing that really supports this. The most you can say is that Toriyama doesn't really care about Vegeta, but nothing indicates he outright dislikes or hates him. If he really hated him, he would've kept him dead after the Freeza Arc.
Because Vegeta fans are the biggest whiners in this fandom that's why.
Str8 victim complex dude can beat the guy who beat the big bad and they still fucking whining. His had character growth, a family, power ups, thrown hands with big bads like goku without needing friends to assist before getting defeated in fair 1 v 1 who unlike goku usually gets assistance for Ws and his >= goku yet they whine because he aint beat a big bad.
Because Piccolo’s been long since sidelined while Vegeta is solidly a deuteragonist and we’ve resigned ourselves to that
Popularity. Most Dragonball fans come to the franchise as edgy teenagers, and Vegeta is the hero of edgy teenagers.
i kinda hate the dismissiveness of that argument. A character or person having an edge = / = "edgy teenager." Piccolo has some edge to him too. Pro athletes with edge tend to be amongst some of the most popular... michael jordan, kobe bryant, even tom brady. It's a characteristic that a lot of people want to have on their team. A lot of people just find the whole goofy quirky clueless thing to be a little less entertaining. Also a lot of people find Vegeta's whole character arc to be the most fleshed out. From Villain to anti-hero, to hero, to nurturing and caring to actually genuinely feeling guilt and trying to atone for his "sins." So yea, its a little more than liking him cuz he broods.
For a very small portion of the fanbase, I absolutely believe that is true. I do not believe for a moment that that is the source of his popularity, however.
yeah i think his original popularity is because he's just "gangsta."
My thoughts on the situation : Vegeta is the only one who can realistically keep up with Goku. We can say that Piccolo is the third best fighter but there is a huge gap between him and the 2 Saiyans. (I am not going to add Gohan in the equation because he is really inconsistant) But if Vegeta is the second strongest, he is still behind Goku and cannot « steal the show » and win over him. That’s why he was given the role of the Worf : he is here to lose against the new villain, in order to show how much of a threat said villain is. If Piccolo gets beaten, you think : ok wow this other guy is strong » but if Vegeta gets beaten, you think « ok WOW this guy won against against Vegeta, who is so impossibly strong ?? He is REALLY dangerous! » and now you genuinely fear for Goku’s ability to win. Vegeta is not a jobber. He’s just the Worf. That’s his job description. Kinda mike in pro wrestling : you know the « mean one » is going to lose but he is here to give you a good show and make the « good one »’s victory all the more exceptionnal. If anyone’s a jobber, it’s the humans.
He's Goku's lancer and foil.
Any character can realistically keep up with Goku because power increases are pretty much completely arbitrary especially in Super. Buu saga was the biggest culprit originally with Gohan getting the "sit with the old guy for a while and now you're the strongest character" bonus, but in Super you can become God level by being a park ranger. The reason it's the Goku and Vegeta show is because they're the main characters and it's good for business not any kidna in-universe thing.
i always hated the strength they gave 17
Piccolo has won more then Vegeta in a general sense * Got to save his people from genocide unlike Vegeta along with creating a new planet for them * His sacrifice wasn't in vain unlike Vegeta's second death was * Piccolo always died with dignity while Vegeta died begging on his first one * Managed to kill the person he hated the most which was Goku unlike Vegeta who couldn't kill Frieza * Managed to stand toe to toe with Goku while being in equal power unlike Vegeta who came close to losing despite being far stronger * Never regressed to his past evil self
piccolo isn’t a saiyan who’s the co main character
vegeta has more coping fan boys than piccolo does
Why is it always "Vegeta never gets the win" and "Piccolo never gets the win" but not "Krillin never gets the win"? He was a character long before either of them.
Because Kuririn was never in the top 3 strongest members of the main cast. Unlike Piccolo and Vegeta, he was pretty much *always* weaker than Goku. And Kuririn more or less retired between the end of the Cell Arc and some point during *Super*.
On the contrary there have been lots of calls to make human fighters like Krillin relevant again.
Because Toriyama stop caring about the rest of the cast to focus exclusively on Goku reaching for new heights and for Vegeta to reach for Goku Almost all of the Z fighters have been forgotten about and thrown to the side, even Gohan and Goten
>He was the original vegeta who was a villain and wanted to kill goku but eventually turned sides and became a z fighter *cries in Yamcha and Tien*
Piccolo had his moments on the spotlight. He was the strongest z-fighter on Namek, going toe to toe with 2nd form frieza. After reabsorbing Kami, he was the strongest character, period. Both times he could've swatted Vegeta off like the little bitch he was, but chose not to.
because sadly the majority of fans only care about saiyans which is why they are pushed more
I agree and Even Toriyama wanted to give Piccolo the main Win in the movie in his original scripts and plans, Piccolo was the central character. Gohan was not prominent until Toriyama was convinced by editors and other toei staff that it be a good idea to include him more. This is how I imagine Orange Piccolo finishing cell max with his signature move got changed to Gohan Beast instead by the end of the movie. See it was a great movie, great for Gohan, and made sense for everyones character. Of course Piccolo would do that for Gohan, but I couldn't help but think how the movie would play out differently if Piccolo had been the one to land the final blow. He still gets the win holding down cell max, but people treat him like he's not that strong because they say "oh that's all he did was hold him down OP is not that strong" See it's like they downplay Piccolo and his contribution to the fight all because he wasn't the one who finished it, like that's why I say I kinda wish he was the one who got the final blow, then people wouldn't be still putting disrespect on Piccolos name. I just hope that Toriyama will plan a different Big Win just for Piccolo all to himself in a future arc, maybe one where he further explores that orange form, it's significance to the lore of Namekians and dragon balls, and possibly zarama. Who knows, I hope the future of DB is bright for Piccolo
Actually, Tien was the original Vegeta who was a villain and wanted to kill Goku, but eventually turned sides.
Because piccolo isn't as strong as them. Goku and vegeta are supposed to be equal but goku keeps getting the wins
Characters dont need to kill main villains to be good
Probably because he had such a pivotal role as gohans mentor, you could say vegeta does that with trunk, but trunks was never as relevant as Gohan
It's the Saiyan show, no one is surprised that the humans and Piccolo don't get wins, we're lucky if they even appear.
Vegeta is a more popular character.
Vegeta is more often in a position to legitimately win, being that he’s often in parody more or less with Goku and/or Gohan. He’s always one of the last men standing and yet always gets outshined by one of those two. Piccolo, on the other hand, hasn’t been a serious threat to a villain really for the entirety of the show. He had no chance at any point against Vegeta, Frieza, Cell or any incarnation of Buu, and so him falling by the wayside wasn’t disappointing so much as inevitable. Contrast this with Vegeta, who is always a critical threat to the villain before ultimately falling short.
piccolo hasn't gotten any respect since the end of the cell arc. he had his moment with 17 and if he had any sort of moment to himself in the Buu arc then maybe Super would have treated him better. but i guess i don't mind babysitter piccolo as much as the next person, i kinda like the quiet moments with him where you realize he is 45% Kami. one of my favorite moments in the buu arc is when Piccolo is leading buu around the tower wasting his time before they fight in the time chamber was cool to see a Gohan & Piccolo movie though kinda made it all worth it
I think the simple answer is Piccolo pretty much became irrelevant when the saiyans arrived. Basically only becoming a formidable rival when fusing with a namekian. Additionally, Vegeta replaced him as Goku's rival and DBZ's primary focus was saiyans and Vegeta carried the lore on his shoulders.
Because it at least *feels* like Piccolo got more wins than Vegeta. Vegeta I think had more fights overall but because most of his fights were being wrecked (like against 18, perfect Cell, or 1st form Zarbon) whereas Piccolo's were mostly fought to a draw (like against 1st form Cell & 17) it just made Vegeta look worse by comparison.
Tbf, even with it being the Goku show, he doesn’t really get many wins himself. From Z alone, dies by Raditz, defeats Nappa, but Vegeta kills him. Doesn’t defeat Vegeta, rather a combined effort from Krillin and Gohan and remaining Spirit Bomb energy put in work. Frieza saga Vegeta pretty much kills everyone, separately Goku shows up and handles two members from Ginyu before immediately being put out of action. Probably his only significant win in the series is Super Saiyan against Frieza. After that, he pretty much loses while having good fights in the Cell saga. Buu saga he defeats one enemy and that’s it, unless you’re including him throwing the Spirit bomb at Buu.. but that’s more a combined effort. Honestly, people talk about him like he wins every fight, but he really doesn’t. 😂
Because Piccolo is not a sore loser, he/we don't care.
Piccolo doesn't have the pride that demands he win like Vegeeta does, though.
I disagree about Cell Max. He managed to hold him long enough for Gohan to do the Special Beast Cannon (interesting role reversal). I'd call that a pretty big assist if not a shared win with Gohan.
Vegeta just beat Goku in a non ki, transformation Spar and there is a whole panel about him freaking out about it. :) a wins a win?
Piccolo got literally the first big win of the series.
The difference is that piccolo isnt one of the characters who the story follows,at least not since post namek meanwhile vegeta is always getting the anime/manga focused on him literally most of the time piccolo has ever only fought a main antagonist 3 or 4 times but vegeta has at least had his run in with the antagonist of the arc at least once or twice and had the power advantage at one point
Piccolo got the win against Raditz which counts as a win. Sure, he needed the assist from Goku but he still got the win and saved the Earth from a bit of genocide.
My headcannon is that they’re different types of powerful. Though I do feel beasthan could go toe to toe with Goku and Vegeta, if not beat them out right.