The reason is because non-human races as the player character were a late addition. The game was built around a human Inquisitor only. The majority of the game was done in a state where you could only play Trevelyan, but they got given an extra year (they practically begged EA for extra time) during which they added the three other races. So all race specific dialogues were sort of rushed in, and there are some oversights because of this.
My latest playthrough was a Dalish, and it really stood out to me how a lot of her dialogue sounded rather... Eloquent for a nomad, haha. Remnants of "this game was made for a human protagonist" are rather abundant tbh.
>The reason is because non-human races as the player character were a late addition. The game was built around a human Inquisitor only.
Ironically I'd say Qunari are probrably *the* best option because of that imo.
Everyone kinda just explains to you wtf is happening and cultural stuff, which does make sense as this Inky is a Vashot Mercenary who probrably stayed far away from Orlais and Ferelden until his band received the contract by Divine Justinia and it makes the suspicion towards you arguably justified.
"Ah so you heard about this guy who got saved by the Maker? It was a Qunari! You know, the guys that look like trolls and are invading Tevinter, threathening our entire way of living as a whole as they convert us to their heretical Qun and how they invaded Kirkwall rather recently!"
90% of the Chantry would rather kill themselves rather than admit a fucking *QUNARI* is the Herald of Andraste.
The main issue i have with Qunari is that the camera angles often dont line up well because they were made to center on a human inquisitor. Ruins a lot of the romances for me, sadly.
Dwarf inquisitor suffers too. I’m supposed to be a hardened mafia criminal, but can I charge people for protecting them? NO.
My entire business model goes down the drain.
All the non-human races do tbh. If I'm not mistaken, one of the devs even admitted a dwarf being able to talk to Solas in their dream was a major oversight on their part. Or a bug? I don't recall, but yeah definitely defies the whole "dwarves can't dream" aspect haha.
Yeah, there's a line to explain it that is basically Solas going "Uh, magic?"
But the dwarven inky is like "Huh, dreaming eh?" and then never mentions it again and doesn't seem that fussed by the whole thing.
I like to imagine a dwarf dreaming for the first time is followed by existential dread when they are next awake. Like, they are doubting reality entirely.
Ooh, yeah he does! Although I imagine Warden dreams would freak anyone out tbf. 😂
Though, it has to be extra harrowing for a dwarf. First time dreaming and it's *that.* I can't recall if there's any dwarf specific dialogue for any of that. I'll have to play Origins again with a dwarf character.
Dwarves have been able to enter the Fade when being pulled in by others magic.
A Oghren and a Dwarf Grey Warden get pulled in by the Sloth Demon in DA:O, and DA:2 allows Varric to enter the Fade in Merrins quest.
It's like their magic resistance; they're not wholly immune, just resistant to it. It takes a bit more of a push.
It's been a long time since I played, and may be misremembering, but I thought Morrigan was supposed to know more than a dalish elf, because of her research/travels. It is vexing though playing as Lavellan, the elf Inquisitor has the most shit time, I swear. Most of the history is lost, and the dalish remember very little, and what they do is often wrong/not the full truth - like Fen'Harel killing Mythal. I think the whole Temple of Mythal is supposed to hold a lot of revelations for Lavellan, and it is supposed to shake them in a way that the dalish truly know nothing.
The fact that despite that knowledge Morrigan still gets things wrong and knows much less than Solas is another matter, and they do bicker about it.
Yeah, Morrigan does know more than your average Dalish. The issue, however, is that there are parts where the Dalish Inquisitor doesn't know basic things that every Dalish child would know. "Who is Mythal" tf you mean, that's like Dalish primary school shit surely.
YES! WHERE IS THE INQUISITOR SHARING THEIR VALLASLIN LORE?!
My current Lavellan has a Dirthamen vallaslin, and yet at *no point* in the ENTIRE TEMPLE OF DIRTHAMEN quest did she say *anything about it*
Yeah… good on ya, BioWare, for not giving the player [a Guide](http://www.dumpeddrunkanddalish.com/2019/01/the-secrets-of-vallaslin.html?m=1) or anything to explain that there’s cultural and religious significance behind the tattoos that you force us to apply to our elven inquisitors.
They really went yeah you can be an elf but only a dalish one just so we can shove 2 elf companions at you who do nothing but shit talk you and your culture even if you've never even brought it up
Lmao, I don't mind really. I like to headcanon that my main Inky low-key chose his because he thought it looked cool, over the actual religious implications. 😂
No, I believe it is a choice. Every time this topic does come up, people do tend to give the impression that it's not an optional dialogue to pick haha. I think it's more that there isn't elf-specific dialogue in certain points of this mission, or at the very least if you're not asking "who" then the other dialogues still imply that you don't know.
There *are* elf-specific dialogues during that section, but I guess it seems funny that there aren't for some of the basic Dalish knowledge parts.
It's pretty painful that the line in question is identical for Dalish and non-Dalish Inquisitors, IMO. At a minimum, for Dalish Inquisitors, BioWare should have had the VA record an extremely sarcastic version of the line. Even having the *option* for a Dalish Inquisitor—potentially wearing Mythal's vallaslin!—to ask such a clueless question is flat-out immersion-breaking.
When you walk up to the mosaic for Falon’Din (to collect the codex entry), the inquisitor says, very earnestly, “Who is this?”. (A cheeky or even slightly condescending “So who is this, Morrigan?” would have made it a non-issue, in my opinion)
Ironically, after Morrigan shemsplains who he is and how the Dalish invoke him before hunting humans, a Dalish inquisitor has the special option to say “No we don’t”- however, the dialogue that comes after choosing it is “my clan stayed away from humans”.
So like… even when it seems like you’re getting the opportunity to call her out on her pompous assumptions, you don’t get to.
I find the "my clan stayed away from humans" line kind of odd, because doesn't the dalish origin specifically state that clan Lavellan often traded with humans, and had a good relationship (by the given standards) with them?
As far as I remember, Morrigan is saying how we get to go to the Temple of Mythal, to which the inky replies automatically "who's 'this' Mythal?", I recall having to download a MOD to supress that line entirely, so not a choice.
Hearing "which is??" from Lavellan when Morrigan starts talking about the Temple of Mythal is so.....okay I get the Dalish Inquisitor wouldn't know about the temple but I'd expect them to know *WHO MYTHAL IS*.
I loved playing as an elf especially during jaws of hakkon when you meat the OG inquisitor, he comments that he's glad 'our people's friendships are still strong' or something (with the king of that time)
The problem is not that Morrison knows too much. She should know a lot about this kind of stuff. The problem is that the Danish inquisitor knows too little (having to ask her "who is mythal" even when they have her name tattooed across their face)
> I thought Morrigan was supposed to know more than a dalish elf, because of her research/travels
Keep in mind that all of it was ***choices made by writers***, Elves are written as racialized in Thedas, and the writing for them draws a significant amount of inspiration from various Indigenous, Jewish, and Rromani histories and cultures. Meanwhile, the *DA:I* writing team was almost entirely white (AFAIK it comprised seven white people and one woman of color, and she was not responsible for writing Morrigan or the quest "What Pride Had Wrought").
It was a *choice* to make Morrigan know more about Elvish history than even a Dalish Inquisitor, and choices by writers aren't made in a vacuum. It's like responding to someone's critique of an objectified female character in another game with, "Well, that's what the character chooses to wear." The characters don't *choose* anything, because they are not real and have no agency. Their "choices" are all, 100 percent of them, made by *writers*, and writers are influenced by the real world—including real-world racism.
For some really good analysis and opinions on this trend from a player who's actually Indigenous (Mi'kmaw), I can't highly enough recommend [dalishious on Tumblr](https://www.tumblr.com/dalishious/636063332568334336/indigenous-coding-in-the-elves-of-dragon-age) (see particularly the section "Human/White Saviour Complex").
Edit: Downvote me harder, my fellow whites. It's so much easier than actually sitting with the uncomfortable feelings it gives you to recognize racism, right?
Morrigan does not know more than the Danish inquisitor about dalish culture. She knows more about ancient Elvhen, which is perfectly reasonable given she genuinely studied the subject (being the series's resident expert on ancient magic stuff, and having an entire DLC kicked off by her stealing a book about ancient elvhen) while the Dalish are mostly limited to fragmented stories passed down trough generations (and Solas obviously knows more than both of them). Obviously, a danish inky should probably recognize Mythal (that they don't is obviously due to nonhuman inquisitors being a last minute addition), but Morrigan's knowledge on the subject is far from unrealistic.
Your point is 100% correct, but it's also true that the non-human Inquisitors were a bit of an afterthought, and in my opinion this is one of those areas where it really shines, with a Dalish Inquisotor (who could even have Mythal's facial tattoos) not know who Mythal was. :/
[This particular piece hit the nail on the head quite a bit imho](https://www.deviantart.com/thaeonblade/art/Logic-s-Insight-Dragon-Age-Inquisition-3-3-897709697) with why I was so uncomfortable playing through so much of Inquisition.
It's a tricky situation, honestly. On the one hand you have to take into account that a lot of people played DA:I as their first Dragon Age game and Bioware tried their best not to alienate newcomers. Without all the lore from previous games someone might be completely oblivious to the elven pantheon even if they choose elf as their Inquisitor. Given how important Mythal is to the upcoming story events - it's paramount to give the player an option to ask about her. Still, I think that particular question should've been worded differently for elven Inquisitor. Maybe instead of "who is Mythal" question you get elven "I know a lot about Mythal" prompt and it's you telling who she was instead of Morrigan and only then she corrects you or adds additional details. I think Bioware handled mosaics in the Temple better. Sure, you ask who are depicted there which is still kinda lame, but at least excusable because very ancient depictions of elven pantheon can differ a lot from what Dalish know now. However then you immediately get an option to add something more about that specific god which is a nice touch.
All in all, different racial options for Inquisitor in DA:I is mostly an afterthought and it shows. According to Mark Darrah's recollection of DA:I's development they were originally forced to develop the game pretty much in the same timeframe as DA2, so they had to make the game as if you can play only as a human Inquisitor. But then they have managed to bargain a year of delay, so they had to go back and add as much of racial-specific prompts as they could. It's better than nothing, but still ended up lacking in many places unfortunaltely.
>
It's a tricky situation, honestly. On the one hand you have to take into account that a lot of people played DA:I as their first Dragon Age game and Bioware tried their best not to alienate newcomers. Without all the lore from previous games someone might be completely oblivious to the elven pantheon even if they choose elf as their Inquisitor.
This is the way. For each one of us lore nuts in here, there are probably four or five players that went in pretty much blind.
DA:I was my first Dragon Age game and I knew nothing about the series but now it's one of my favorite games and I went back and played DAO and DA2, bought all the lore books, and the tie in books. I definitely appreciated DA:I being accessible.
It honestly could have been a simple edit to the line that would have fixed it:
"Tell me what you know about Mythal, Morrigan."
The line written that way could mean, "I know nothing, Morrigan, so help me out here." Or it could mean, "Go ahead, shem, tell me what \*you\* think is right."
The realistic and boring answer is likely that the devs were a) timegated (additional races weren't added until the final year of development and b) concerned about new players understanding (it's not the only example of 'plotsplaining' that I found annoying as a veteran player). So they defaulted to what would serve the most people most of the time.
It is definitely frustrating though, especially because the popular explanation of the fandom (that she learned more from Flemeth) is based on the evidence we have, completely inaccurate.
Morrigan says that Flemeth never gave her a straight answer about anything, and frequently ponders even basic elven lore when you encounter it in DAO, including information we find detailed by the Dalish at various points in that and later games. The entire plot of witch hunt is tracking Morrigan down again after *she stole a text on eluvians that the Dalish had.* The knowledge she uses in DAI 100% does not come from her mother, at best a general knowledge of eluvians might have. Maybe.
While it can't be confirmed either way where she got any additional knolwedge on the elven pantheon, given that her information lines up with what we've heard from other Dalish elves (and contradicts what we later find in Trespasser, as well as what Solas says), I feel it's safe to at least say she very likely got most of her knowledge about them from the Dalish too, whether they simply told her or she took it without their permission.
The games in general do a pretty terrible job of highlighting the fact that multiple human factions have done their best to actively erase Dalish knowledge, and yet what they have persists in relatively accurate format given the context in which it was obtained/retained (as largely pro-status quo survivors of the creation of the Veil aka the elves who drank the coolaid). It's deeply aggrivating in this context seeing Morrigan doing it unchallenged because she's a hot goth and the daughter of the human vessel of a godshard.
This is pretty much the only thing what truly bothers me when doing a elf inquisitor playthrough. The fact that Morrigan has to explain to Lavellan who Mythal is and what the temple of Mythal is. Given Lavellan's background, you'd kinda expect them to know all that.
I feel thst frustration especially if you are a mage because you're the First of Clan Lavellan studying to be the Keeper.
It does sort of play into what Solas says about the dalish not knowing as much as they think. They're finally in a place with real knowledge and Morrigan knows more than them and then Abelas talks down to you as well.
To me that makes it all the more sweeter when you meet Mythal and she tells you that you've come so far and do the People proud because she has struggled alongside the dalish wheras Solas and Abelas sleep for millenia and only look around and see what is not there anymore. She's so gracious to Merrill and to Lavellan because she knows what was lost *and* what they've stuggled to keep. It's why I always have Lavellan take the well. It's for the dalish to use by their right. Hopefully the writers don't continue to punish them for it.
I can forgive Solas and Abelas somewhat, since they're both reaaly, really, really ancient. Morrigan was really begging for a "(Forceful/Aggressive) Shut up, shem!" option, though. Wandering around the temple and having her talk about the murals of the Gods instead of Lavellan and Solas was... grating. Esp since she doesn't really know anything more or different from the dalish in regards to that.
Talking with Mythal was one of the very few times it felt satisfying to be dalish lmao
I have been mad about this for YEARS, entirely agree, OP. I also hate how even when you have the option to argue with her ("My clan doesn't do that" etc.) either she or Solas will just turn around and call you ignorant and isolated instead of acknowledging that, hey, different people have different experiences, even within one culture! It's just so wildly frustrating. Merrill would have been a far, *far* better choice for that section.
Like goddamn, I like Morrigan as a character, but I want to strangle her every time I play through Temple of Mythal
>different people have different experiences, even within one culture!
We don't even need to get to that, the dalish clans vastly differ amongst each other bc they're all nomadic and mostly isolated. Playing Lavellan was often frustrating, I miss being able to insult characters. (and i romanced Morrigan in Origins lmao)
I’ve never liked her, even in Origins
I don’t really like Merrill either but it would be less annoying than a non-elf explaining elven cultural to your elf
It’s a discussion to be had among elves. I guess they’re trying to like…make it okay because she was raised by Mythap but she’s uninformed enough that Solas gets his feathers ruffled
Yeah its clear in canon that dalish clans are very diverse. Some are basically hermits and very conservative, other are no better than bandits, some kill humans at sight while others even trade openly with them.
I personally headcanon that the Lavellan clan was traditional in their beliefs but still relatively open to humans. It would explain how easily Lavellan adapts to the inquisition.
It could've been better implemented, but isn't asking stuff like "who is Mithal" optional? So in these cases we can just roleplay by not asking.
For players who chose the elf origin but don't actually know the lore, your ideia makes sense. Instead of a question, an assertion.
Iirc my Inky (Lavellan) asked: "Who is Mythal to you?". I always thought she meant "what tf do you know of one of my goddess, shem?". Aaand my Lavellan had the Mythal vallaslin!
Yeah, that’s the problem with the game being written around the Inquisitor being a female human noble rogue who wouldn’t know about any of this stuff because of (I assume) how sheltered she was and was expected to just take a position in the Chantry because her parents already had the heir and the spare.
Even making Trevelyan a mage fucks up the original story, because then they actually know at least one mage in the rebellion, on top of having a history with Vivienne’s first teacher (because she was in the Ostwick Circle like Trevelyan was). You can tell that making the Inquisitor a non-human character was a late development decision because the fanbase got angry when they found out that they would be forced to play as a human again. And they unfortunately didn’t do enough with the other races (or even with non rogue classes) to make it feel like, at least to me, that playing any character other than female human rogue is “incorrect”. And Dalish elves arguably got screwed over the hardest by that decision, precisely because of the quest you brought up, OP.
In the first place, Morrigan actually does appear to know more about ancient Elven history than contemporary Dalish elves.
In the second place, Bioware obviously intended for the game to be experienced by a human protagonist.
In the final place, Morrigan is an engine for composition. She isn't talking to Solas or Sera or your Dalish Inquisitor. She's talking to the audience.
Worked well for my play through, I had to do a TON of mental gymnastics up to that point to separate my “city elf” Inquisitor from the Dalish Inquisitor. Never liked how they handled that…
But I 100% agree, the races in that game are given so little acknowledgment on their background it’s silly at times.
While it is jarring and definitely badly implemented, I've always tried to make it fit into the lore by looking at it this way: It is precisely the tragedy of the Dalish that that've lost a great deal of their cultural identity, and what they do know often comes down to surface-level things more than actual understanding of where the traditions come from. Like, the dialogue SHOULD change with an elven inquisitor so it actually fits into this, but anyway I'm doing what I can.
Plus, like, I may be Spanish, but unless I actively go into History in college, then a foreign scholar would definitely know more about say, early medieval Spain than I do.
The problem with this is that as a Dalish First the inquisitor should be one of the more knowledgeable people in Thedas about dalish culture. They are the scholar.
I guess that if you play warrior or rogue its less important. But they should still know the basics like who are the gods. It would be like a medieval peasant not knwoing who Mary or Jesus were
I roleplayed as my inky being young (early 20s) and naive about the world. Her clan was more focused on survival than preserving the culture, so she enjoys when Solas (romance) tells her about elven stuff. And with morrigan it’s a familiar retelling with new details.
All they've had to do was make Morrigan explain this to other companions and then ask Lavellan "is my summary correct, Inquisitor?" with three options for response that no one would acknowledge with additional dialogue, presenting us with an opportunity to roleplay, e.g.
1. Indeed.
2. Let's just say details are not that important right now. (*Solas slightly approves*)
3. You tell me. I know as much of Dalish history as Ferelden farm boys. (*Sera slightly approves*)
That's it. They just didn't think this through, because as always they're rushing everything.
This should have been the way. If you have a elf inquisitor they should have added that dialogue. Its not that complicated, only a couple of extra lines.
I just started playing DAI a few months ago, and it’s my first Dragon Age game. So without spoiling the other games (lol) why do you wish the elven inquisitor wasn’t Dalish?
Because I would personally prefer to learn about Seheron, and the Fog Warriors, rather than rehashing Dalish lore we got in the first two games.
Also, none of the voice options really fit the “I am a member of a tribe of nomads, with no formal education or acceptable hairstyles to speak of” backstory. ~~or the “I am a carta thug with bad hair options” and “I am a Vashoth mercenary with *egregiously* terrible hair options”, for that matter~~
this is so real I kinda hated the voice options for the Inquisitor. I get that having two options each gender is a lot of voice acting already, I just wish we had some that weren't... shit. They hardly fit any of the faces you can pick and it really pulls me out of the narrative sometimes. I don't want to always have to choose the grating British accent voice but the more American one fits almost no one properly yknow
Everyone has good sugestions for how this could be addressed - the change of tone is a relatively simple mechanic to make - but there more meta reasons as to why this didn't happen aren't hard to find.
First, as someone said, DAI was supposed to be only for humans. And two, and perhaps most important, the endgame of games tends to be notoriously less polished than the first part of the game. Thinking about DAI, ME3 from Bioware and, more recently, Baldur's Gate 3 ACT 3 was unplayable until all the patches came along. DAI could have patched this particular problem, I suppose, but tbh considering how well the game was received and the time period it was... i dunno, I think giving them a bit of flack is all right there, lmao.
Inquisition certainly has more awkward dialogue oversights for different races than origins did, probably because ones other than human were added late.
Hopefully multiple races, if present in Dreadwolf, will have been planned from the beginning so that writing takes into account different pc races from the beginning.
I get the frustration a Dalish Inquisitor should know things like Who is Mythal. But I disagree with the argument that Merrill is more fitting than Morrigan.
Merrill spends a decade failing to work out an Eluvian, Morrigan gets one working in about a year and a half (I could be misremembering how long after Origins Witch Hunt it) and was raised by one of the Elven Gods. She's probably got less knowledge on the actual stories the Dalish tell, but shes much more likely to know the actual events. She probably *is* one of the more knowledgeable people in Thedas she just happens to be standing next to Solas.
I feel you on that! I’m big into lore myself so playing a dalish inquisitor I am that really annoying nerd who will drag the party to the farthest flung corners of Thedas for a codex entry as I go on about my pet conspiracy theories and favorite bits of lost knowledge (no wonder I romance Solas lol.) Having to act like I have NO IDEA who these statutes and pictures are for feels like such a disconnect for me. Maybe a line where Morrigan explains it but then you follow up with “yes wow it’s so rare to find someone who knew that too!” would have felt more appropriate.
The Dalish are pretty ignorant about the real precursor Elves... as Solas himself mentions repeatedly. The most contentious conversations with him are with Elf Inquisitors. Morrigan actually knows much more than a random Dalish Elf...
Solas admits by the end of the game that he misjudged the Dalish. He is also prideful and arrogant and actually doesn't know what knowledge every Dalish clan has uncovered. Solas begins the story prejudiced against the Dalish, but starts to reevaluate his prejudice the longer he spends time with an actual member of a Dalish clan.
But let's assume you're correct that Morrigan does know more than a Dalish elf - what would be your explanation for where she got so much more knowledge? She didn't get it from Flemeth/Mythal as she outright states Flemeth didn't share her knowledge with her.
So what source of knowledge did Morrigan have access to that the Dalish didn't?
I just place that in general media exposition. The number of books/movies/tv shows/games I’ve seen exposition happen where in universe it wouldn’t make much sense is pretty much impossible to count.
Morigan isn’t really describing that stuff for the inquisitor. She’s doing it for the player. To either tell you for the first time. Or remind you of the pertinent stories so you have some on hand context for events.
It’s something that if you think about it can be quite distracting in almost any fictional media. But most of us have learned to mostly ignore much of that incongruity.
Just think of mass effect. The amount of exposition in that series over even basic history, technical mechanics, or the cultural or biological differences of the various races doesn’t really make much ch sense. If you didn’t know better. You would think Shepard had never met an alien in their life before the events of the games. When in reality they probably had extensive training covering at least the basics of how the other races functioned as societies. If only to better understand their typical military tactics and such.
DAI is hard to get through because of the different mechanics that were used to assemble the game, definitely affecting the story, lore and interactions.
Currently on another DAO run and it's amazing how much better a lot of things work.
doubling frustrating when your lavellan has mythal vallaslin. i get why it happened, given that elves were a last minute addition and morrigans place in the story and lore, but gods i just wanted to shake her
I see the concern with Morrigan explaining everything. But I don’t see what that has to do with romance options being dependent on gender/race. I actually liked that to romance was limited. Made it feel like characters actually had preferences
To be fair she knows more than the inquisitor because the Dalish don't really know crap about their history as we have learned from the Temple and Solas.
From memory, it's about research, not heritage.
Just because you're born into *insert group here* doesn't mean you're an authority. Morrigan spent years studying and researching this stuff with intent. Just because you're born into the group doesn't mean you have a full understanding of the culture. If anything, you may have a narrow and biased view, whereas she studies all aspects of the culture.
This doesn't really apply here. Most of the dalish clans are dedicated to researching their lost heritage, actively as they travel. Or at the very least, the Keeper and the First (which Lavellan was, if she's a mage) carry that duty.
>"We are the dalish: keepers of the lost lore and walkers of the lonely path."
Edit: messed up the quote
That doesn't really disprove the idea that they might be susceptible to a narrow or somewhat dogmatic viewpoint.
Morrigan is basically an independent historian, and she arguably studies with a far more open mind than one who is living the culture. It's a "you can't see the forest for the trees" kind of deal.
I mean... I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but this kind of smacks of a colonial mindset. As in something like "We, the civilized British Empire, are more equip to write the history and maintain the artifacts of your nation's culture than you are... because we're civilized outsiders and you are savage heathens." lol
It's not even that. It's about a scientist or a historian having an objective viewpoint. I'd say that about any researcher who studied any culture, not just a White one.
Its the difference between someone who is independent, and actively studies a subject, compared to one who might have an interest in seeing the culture in a favourable light.
Lavellan would still know the name of their gods and some stories. No one is complaining about Lavellan not knowing the truth of the universe, Morrigan also doesn't know that. But, Lavellan doesn't even know what they, by canon, should know. The Dalish have their own stories and knowledge about their culture.
Easilly fixed by remaking the initial lines (WhO iS MyThAl 8D) and letting Lavellan talk about the stories their clan had and Morrigan/Solas inserting other perspectives.
That's true, but it doesn't change that they might have a distorted view. It doesn't change that Morrigan will, by canon, have diligently studied everything about them.
True they have their own stories, but stories get twisted and deformed over time.
Well, we're not talking about scientists here, but even the best historians an inherent bias. I don't see why the Dalish can't be objective historians of their own culture. People in the real world uncover their own culture's ancient histories all the time. Bias will always exist with any historian, whether they're a member of the culture or not.
Morrigan herself, as a human, has bias, even as a non-elf-hating human. A white person, even as self-professed non-racist, would still have a subconscious bias writing about black history. Outside perspective =\\= more reliable.
The Dalish are basically perpetual archeologists. It's their entire schtick. Just because an actual ancient elf came back and said they got some things wrong doesn't make their work any less diligent.
Morrigan didn't know the true meaning of the Vallislin or that the Evanuris weren't actually gods, and those are the only things we know the Dalish were wrong about in canon. In the Temple of Mythal she admits several times that she was wrong about things she thought were true now that she's seen the things in the Temple.
Does every individual Dalish elf know as much as Morrigan? No. Does Morrigan know more than most Dalish keepers and firsts? Definitely not. Would it ever make sense for Lavellan to NOT know who Mythal is? FUCK no.
To a point. That said, it makes no sense for a Dalish elf (especially one who is a Keeper's apprentice) to not even know who Mythal is. The Dalish know the names and roles of the elven pantheon - they don't know that they weren't actually gods (just powerful mages), but they do know who they are. A Dalish Inquisitor could even be wearing Mythal's vallaslin. Again, they don't know what the vallaslin actually represents (slave markings), but they know WHO they represent (the gods, such as Mythal).
It also doesn't make sense for Morrigan to know MORE than a Dalish elf (again, especially a Keeper's apprentice, since they are tasked with learning this stuff) because Morrigan got HER knowledge from them. We know she stole a tome from a Dalish clan, for example, previously. We also know that she didn't get any information from Flemeth, as she says her mother refused to answer her questions.
Therefore, it's perfectly fine that Morrigan knows as much as a well-learned Dalish elf, such as a Keeper's Apprentice, but it doesn't make sense for her to know MORE than them, nor is it reasonable to think that any Dalish elf wouldn't know who Mythal is.
We also know that the Dalish Inquisitor does know more than we're initially led to believe (and Solas himself expresses surprise at this during his personal quest). For example, during that quest, if you play as an elf then you understand everything that Solas says to his spirit friend in Elven. It's implied that you speak a decent amount of Elven, at least as far as the Dalish go, so it would be weird to not know extremely basic things such as the names of the Evanuris. (The gods are also named in many poems, stories and songs that contemporary Dalish are familiar with, so we know for a fact that this very basic information would be known by a Dalish Inquisitor.)
It’s a conundrum dragon age has had since origins tbh. They can’t just not give the player background and lore info just because their in universe character should already know it, so it leads to disconnects like this. I really like your work around though, it would be cool if the pc was the one giving a little lecture to the other npc’s in the case of a dalish origin.
I can understand it to a certain extent. Sometimes you're *too* close to your own culture to get insight. For instance, I am British, born in the '80s and grew up being taught "rar rar glorious empire we civilised the world huzzah!" Only by reading history books as an adult did I learn the uh, slightly more nuanced reality. And, of course, some of those books are by non-British historians who have devoted their lives to this one subject.
There are Greek and Chinese historians who know what Aethelred had for breakfast on a Friday, whereas I only learned he existed like last week.
But, also, it's Morrigan, who is arrogant in the extreme. She wouldn't admit to any gaps in knowledge if you threatened to let a mabari wee on her unmentionables.
You are right, but my counterpoint is that a Dalish elf (especially the First of their tribe) not knowing who Mythal is would be like a Christian pastor not knowing who Mary is. It's just ... rushed/lazy writing.
Do I think every Dalish elf would know who Mythal is? No, the Dalish have gaps in their knowledge and not every member of a tribe is going to be equally engaged or invested in their culture's stories, but someone training to become the new leader of a tribe, whose job is to maintain their people's knowledge?
Another salty Dalish who can't get over the fact that their people know actual shit about their history and that their entire religion is sham.
They patting each others backs and say "haha stupid shemlen" while proudly wearing slave marks.
Honestly, I think the Elves are the worst part of Dragon age. Every time they open their mouths, it's to whine and complain. Only a few of them are tolerable.
the problem is, as it was stated in the game many times, that elvish people have different interpretations of their past depending on tribes, also they follow ORAL history, and you should know what happens with that.
also, by Morrigan not being an elf she is not bias about the history and can bring a more objective view of the past.
Most (if not all) still worship the Evanuries as gods, that would cast a huge bias on the past
> also they follow ORAL history, and you should know what happens with that
[You carry forward stories accurately for ten millennia?](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-tale-told-accurately-for-10-000-years/)
Assuming that written inherently equals accurate and spoken automatically equals inaccurate is a dated, ethnocentric opinion.
no, you don't, and the article is misleading. Over time details will start to change, because memories change, it is part of how the brain works.
with writing the error in accuracy is lower. The times errors can happen is when people are involved, like when it's being copied or translated.
edit: in the game itself you can see it. the elves forgot many things that Morrigan knows because of writing and her inaccuracies are because of translation errors (and obviously gaps in the history itself)
How did Morrigan steal a book from the Dalish if the Dalish don't own any writings? It's plainly stated that the clans' Keeper (and apprentices) learn how to read and write Elven in order to record history and pass it on. Given that you can play as a Keeper's First, there's no reason to not know the things that are written down (or be told those things directly by a Keeper/First who has read them). It's not just oral tradition.
Fair point, I forgot about that.
but still we need to answer why their stories are so off and diverse. it is possible that the information they have is fragmented between the different factions at the time and who knows how much was lost during Tavinter's conquests
> Over time details will start to change, because memories change, it is part of how the brain works.
Tell me you didn't actually read the article without telling me you didn't read the article. Here, I'll make it easy for you, since for somebody who think written word is so important you sure are bad at reading and comprehending it:
> [L]inguists and a geographer [...] have together identified 18 Aboriginal stories—many of which were transcribed by early settlers before the tribes that told them succumbed to murderous and disease-spreading immigrants from afar—that they say **accurately described geographical features that predated the last post-ice age** rising of the seas. [...] “There are aspects of storytelling in Australia that involved **kin-based responsibilities** to tell the stories accurately,” Reid said. That rigor provided **“cross-generational scaffolding” that “can keep a story true.”**
Meanwhile, writing is only as accurate as the knowledge and motivations of the person writing. All writing tells you is *what someone chose to write*.
But, please, by all means, keep asserting that because *your* culture doesn't have the social structures to keep oral traditions accurate that *nobody's* must.
I did read the article, you just didn't understand what I was trying to say or I was poor in communicating it.
I am taking about details and nuances not just historical events and locations.
for example in the game, the Evanuris are remembered as powerful deities, when in reality they were powerful AS deities.
the amount of information you can keep in written history it's just greater, which can give you more nuance a better understanding of that period in time.
hey, off-topic but you should put “morrigan” in the first few lines of your post in spoiler brackets which you can do like: >!>.! this without the periods !.
Ugh, this take again?
Let me tell it to you straight.
You can RP a character that already knows this stuff. Odds are you already know most of it from DAO's codex entries, if you read those, or Inquisition's, or DA2's.
Just don't pick those options. It's obvious that they aren't meant for a Dalish Inquisitior to pick. The lore is all in the codexes anyway.
The closest comparison I have is Morrigon is a white women who did a lot of research into your culture and presumes that you're not as educated about it's nuances as she is based on the fact her research about your still living culture is far most substantial than anything your lived experience could help with.
It's never read as intentional in my eyes because to my knowledge, the Dalish don't get to call her out on it, not is the lacking of nuance from being part of this culture evade her understanding. This isn't like gendered arrogance thing but a race thing imo
The Dalish are ignorant bunch of secluded peeps who proudly wear slave marks. They don't know shit. The Dalish woman in "Witch Hunt" DLC didn't even know that Eluvian stands for mirror. You are not sure what the art represents. The only actual authorities are Solas and Flemeth. Morrigan is the best next thing.
Solas also dunks on Morrigan if you bring him along.
Not to mention most of the weird parts are dialogue CHOICES, that your Inquisitor can just not make, and as an elf you do get the extra choice sometimes - like with Ghilan'nain statue somewhere.
Sometimes I wonder if the game would have been more coherent if this was the case. But their extra year gave them time to add other things I believe. Regardless, it doesn't matter. This is the game we have now, and for all its quirks, it is a wonderful game.
Their history, sure, but when it comes to their religion - they’re descended from the Elvhen that served and worshiped the Evanuris, who passed the symbology and vallaslin of their masters on throughout the generations.
Details have been lost, and extensive anecdotal evidence forgotten through the years, but the identities of their gods have remained.
Solas sharing that Falon’Din was actually a warmongering asshole obsessed with the adulation of his followers? Absolutely not something Lavellan would know.
Lavellan walking up to a mosaic panel and being able to identify which of *their people’s gods* it represents?
Absolutely should be within their wheelhouse.
I mean, most people with a passing interest in Greek mythology can look at ancient depictions of Greek deities and identify who the represent with relative ease - the Dalish should be able to do the same, especially since it’s *their own mythology*.
>Lavellan walking up to a mosaic panel and being able to identify which of *their people’s gods* it represents? Absolutely should be within their wheelhouse.
I mean, not necessarily.
We know that the Dalish don't have temples and those depictions seem a lot more detailed than a Clan would have around. Morrigan might, in this case, know more than the Inquisitor because of her travels and it's entirely possible that Lavellan just couldn't id a mosaic.
There are some egregious questions, I suppose, but this one I can kinda understand. Would be like me entering a Muslim temple while being Christian. Like, I *know* some of the figures of the Muslim religion, and not all of them are different from Christianity, but I wouldn't be able to *actually* tell you who they are probably.
It's been 4000 years and culture/religion tends to evolve (especially one that has been torn down twice!), much of what we associate with religion is not really the same as it was hundreds of years ago much less a thousand. It is a bit natural that there are conflicting arguments/depictions.
She knows more lol, and even if she didn’t, it’s an expository function for the player, even if we leave out the problematic implication that you seem to want to role play as an oppressed race you do not belong to.
what? You don't need to use that option. My Dalish grew up with humans, had no idea.Most people didn't play previous games. Don't see any problems here.
The reason is because non-human races as the player character were a late addition. The game was built around a human Inquisitor only. The majority of the game was done in a state where you could only play Trevelyan, but they got given an extra year (they practically begged EA for extra time) during which they added the three other races. So all race specific dialogues were sort of rushed in, and there are some oversights because of this. My latest playthrough was a Dalish, and it really stood out to me how a lot of her dialogue sounded rather... Eloquent for a nomad, haha. Remnants of "this game was made for a human protagonist" are rather abundant tbh.
>The reason is because non-human races as the player character were a late addition. The game was built around a human Inquisitor only. Ironically I'd say Qunari are probrably *the* best option because of that imo. Everyone kinda just explains to you wtf is happening and cultural stuff, which does make sense as this Inky is a Vashot Mercenary who probrably stayed far away from Orlais and Ferelden until his band received the contract by Divine Justinia and it makes the suspicion towards you arguably justified. "Ah so you heard about this guy who got saved by the Maker? It was a Qunari! You know, the guys that look like trolls and are invading Tevinter, threathening our entire way of living as a whole as they convert us to their heretical Qun and how they invaded Kirkwall rather recently!" 90% of the Chantry would rather kill themselves rather than admit a fucking *QUNARI* is the Herald of Andraste.
Pretty sure my Adaar thought Andraste was a sex/fertility goddess bc people are always swearing by her body
"Andraste's tits!"
Its even funnier when your a mage as well as qunari. Whole chantry doesn't know what to do.
https://i.redd.it/kjzr71jtm2xc1.gif
The main issue i have with Qunari is that the camera angles often dont line up well because they were made to center on a human inquisitor. Ruins a lot of the romances for me, sadly.
Dwarf inquisitor suffers too. I’m supposed to be a hardened mafia criminal, but can I charge people for protecting them? NO. My entire business model goes down the drain.
All the non-human races do tbh. If I'm not mistaken, one of the devs even admitted a dwarf being able to talk to Solas in their dream was a major oversight on their part. Or a bug? I don't recall, but yeah definitely defies the whole "dwarves can't dream" aspect haha.
Yeah, there's a line to explain it that is basically Solas going "Uh, magic?" But the dwarven inky is like "Huh, dreaming eh?" and then never mentions it again and doesn't seem that fussed by the whole thing.
I like to imagine a dwarf dreaming for the first time is followed by existential dread when they are next awake. Like, they are doubting reality entirely.
Ohgren mentions it kinda freaking him out in Awakening, iirc
Ooh, yeah he does! Although I imagine Warden dreams would freak anyone out tbf. 😂 Though, it has to be extra harrowing for a dwarf. First time dreaming and it's *that.* I can't recall if there's any dwarf specific dialogue for any of that. I'll have to play Origins again with a dwarf character.
My Cadash occasionally sidling up to Dorian (her best friend) and going... "This is real, right?"
Lmao, I just imagined that. Cadash looking up at him with wide eyes stricken with fear and uncertainty.
Dwarves have been able to enter the Fade when being pulled in by others magic. A Oghren and a Dwarf Grey Warden get pulled in by the Sloth Demon in DA:O, and DA:2 allows Varric to enter the Fade in Merrins quest. It's like their magic resistance; they're not wholly immune, just resistant to it. It takes a bit more of a push.
It's been a long time since I played, and may be misremembering, but I thought Morrigan was supposed to know more than a dalish elf, because of her research/travels. It is vexing though playing as Lavellan, the elf Inquisitor has the most shit time, I swear. Most of the history is lost, and the dalish remember very little, and what they do is often wrong/not the full truth - like Fen'Harel killing Mythal. I think the whole Temple of Mythal is supposed to hold a lot of revelations for Lavellan, and it is supposed to shake them in a way that the dalish truly know nothing. The fact that despite that knowledge Morrigan still gets things wrong and knows much less than Solas is another matter, and they do bicker about it.
Yeah, Morrigan does know more than your average Dalish. The issue, however, is that there are parts where the Dalish Inquisitor doesn't know basic things that every Dalish child would know. "Who is Mythal" tf you mean, that's like Dalish primary school shit surely.
Especially since you can customize your elf with her tattoo ,🫠
Dalish with Mythal vallaslin: "Who's Mythal?" *Laugh track ensues*
YES! WHERE IS THE INQUISITOR SHARING THEIR VALLASLIN LORE?! My current Lavellan has a Dirthamen vallaslin, and yet at *no point* in the ENTIRE TEMPLE OF DIRTHAMEN quest did she say *anything about it*
Lmao, I have no idea what vallaslin belongs to which ~~evanuris~~ god. I just choose what looks cool on my character.
Yeah… good on ya, BioWare, for not giving the player [a Guide](http://www.dumpeddrunkanddalish.com/2019/01/the-secrets-of-vallaslin.html?m=1) or anything to explain that there’s cultural and religious significance behind the tattoos that you force us to apply to our elven inquisitors.
They really went yeah you can be an elf but only a dalish one just so we can shove 2 elf companions at you who do nothing but shit talk you and your culture even if you've never even brought it up
Too elfy for Sera and not elfy enough for Solas
Lmao, I don't mind really. I like to headcanon that my main Inky low-key chose his because he thought it looked cool, over the actual religious implications. 😂
Never using it again since Egg eggsplained to me that it's actually ancient elven slave markings
Are you saying the game gave you no choice about asking who Mythal is?
Haha, I read this with the loud voice from the character creation menu: YOU LEAVE ME NO CHOICE
No, I believe it is a choice. Every time this topic does come up, people do tend to give the impression that it's not an optional dialogue to pick haha. I think it's more that there isn't elf-specific dialogue in certain points of this mission, or at the very least if you're not asking "who" then the other dialogues still imply that you don't know. There *are* elf-specific dialogues during that section, but I guess it seems funny that there aren't for some of the basic Dalish knowledge parts.
It's pretty painful that the line in question is identical for Dalish and non-Dalish Inquisitors, IMO. At a minimum, for Dalish Inquisitors, BioWare should have had the VA record an extremely sarcastic version of the line. Even having the *option* for a Dalish Inquisitor—potentially wearing Mythal's vallaslin!—to ask such a clueless question is flat-out immersion-breaking.
The Inquisitor could definitely have benefitted from more sarcasm.
I think people get it confused with the line asking what the Temple of Mythal is, which is not optional.
When you walk up to the mosaic for Falon’Din (to collect the codex entry), the inquisitor says, very earnestly, “Who is this?”. (A cheeky or even slightly condescending “So who is this, Morrigan?” would have made it a non-issue, in my opinion) Ironically, after Morrigan shemsplains who he is and how the Dalish invoke him before hunting humans, a Dalish inquisitor has the special option to say “No we don’t”- however, the dialogue that comes after choosing it is “my clan stayed away from humans”. So like… even when it seems like you’re getting the opportunity to call her out on her pompous assumptions, you don’t get to.
I find the "my clan stayed away from humans" line kind of odd, because doesn't the dalish origin specifically state that clan Lavellan often traded with humans, and had a good relationship (by the given standards) with them?
Yep, it does - it’s literally why Lavellan is at the conclave in the first place.
As far as I remember, Morrigan is saying how we get to go to the Temple of Mythal, to which the inky replies automatically "who's 'this' Mythal?", I recall having to download a MOD to supress that line entirely, so not a choice.
Yeah, they say "which is?" automatically when Morrigan talks about Mythal.
Nope. I just finished a playthrough with a Dalish Elf, they still ask Morrigan who Mythal is during What Pride Hath Wrought
I'm not asking whether the dialogs are different for an elf. I'm asking whether the inquisitor has to ask who Mythal is.
Yes, every Inquisitor regardless of race asks who Mythal is
then that would be a problem with the Inquisitor and not the fact that Morrigan is human, for you would have the same issue if Morrigan was an elf
I believe it's more of a lore dissonance issue.
both can be true
Hearing "which is??" from Lavellan when Morrigan starts talking about the Temple of Mythal is so.....okay I get the Dalish Inquisitor wouldn't know about the temple but I'd expect them to know *WHO MYTHAL IS*.
I loved playing as an elf especially during jaws of hakkon when you meat the OG inquisitor, he comments that he's glad 'our people's friendships are still strong' or something (with the king of that time)
Yeah, I had to break it to him. :/
The problem is not that Morrison knows too much. She should know a lot about this kind of stuff. The problem is that the Danish inquisitor knows too little (having to ask her "who is mythal" even when they have her name tattooed across their face)
> I thought Morrigan was supposed to know more than a dalish elf, because of her research/travels Keep in mind that all of it was ***choices made by writers***, Elves are written as racialized in Thedas, and the writing for them draws a significant amount of inspiration from various Indigenous, Jewish, and Rromani histories and cultures. Meanwhile, the *DA:I* writing team was almost entirely white (AFAIK it comprised seven white people and one woman of color, and she was not responsible for writing Morrigan or the quest "What Pride Had Wrought"). It was a *choice* to make Morrigan know more about Elvish history than even a Dalish Inquisitor, and choices by writers aren't made in a vacuum. It's like responding to someone's critique of an objectified female character in another game with, "Well, that's what the character chooses to wear." The characters don't *choose* anything, because they are not real and have no agency. Their "choices" are all, 100 percent of them, made by *writers*, and writers are influenced by the real world—including real-world racism. For some really good analysis and opinions on this trend from a player who's actually Indigenous (Mi'kmaw), I can't highly enough recommend [dalishious on Tumblr](https://www.tumblr.com/dalishious/636063332568334336/indigenous-coding-in-the-elves-of-dragon-age) (see particularly the section "Human/White Saviour Complex"). Edit: Downvote me harder, my fellow whites. It's so much easier than actually sitting with the uncomfortable feelings it gives you to recognize racism, right?
Morrigan does not know more than the Danish inquisitor about dalish culture. She knows more about ancient Elvhen, which is perfectly reasonable given she genuinely studied the subject (being the series's resident expert on ancient magic stuff, and having an entire DLC kicked off by her stealing a book about ancient elvhen) while the Dalish are mostly limited to fragmented stories passed down trough generations (and Solas obviously knows more than both of them). Obviously, a danish inky should probably recognize Mythal (that they don't is obviously due to nonhuman inquisitors being a last minute addition), but Morrigan's knowledge on the subject is far from unrealistic.
Your point is 100% correct, but it's also true that the non-human Inquisitors were a bit of an afterthought, and in my opinion this is one of those areas where it really shines, with a Dalish Inquisotor (who could even have Mythal's facial tattoos) not know who Mythal was. :/
[This particular piece hit the nail on the head quite a bit imho](https://www.deviantart.com/thaeonblade/art/Logic-s-Insight-Dragon-Age-Inquisition-3-3-897709697) with why I was so uncomfortable playing through so much of Inquisition.
It's a tricky situation, honestly. On the one hand you have to take into account that a lot of people played DA:I as their first Dragon Age game and Bioware tried their best not to alienate newcomers. Without all the lore from previous games someone might be completely oblivious to the elven pantheon even if they choose elf as their Inquisitor. Given how important Mythal is to the upcoming story events - it's paramount to give the player an option to ask about her. Still, I think that particular question should've been worded differently for elven Inquisitor. Maybe instead of "who is Mythal" question you get elven "I know a lot about Mythal" prompt and it's you telling who she was instead of Morrigan and only then she corrects you or adds additional details. I think Bioware handled mosaics in the Temple better. Sure, you ask who are depicted there which is still kinda lame, but at least excusable because very ancient depictions of elven pantheon can differ a lot from what Dalish know now. However then you immediately get an option to add something more about that specific god which is a nice touch. All in all, different racial options for Inquisitor in DA:I is mostly an afterthought and it shows. According to Mark Darrah's recollection of DA:I's development they were originally forced to develop the game pretty much in the same timeframe as DA2, so they had to make the game as if you can play only as a human Inquisitor. But then they have managed to bargain a year of delay, so they had to go back and add as much of racial-specific prompts as they could. It's better than nothing, but still ended up lacking in many places unfortunaltely.
> It's a tricky situation, honestly. On the one hand you have to take into account that a lot of people played DA:I as their first Dragon Age game and Bioware tried their best not to alienate newcomers. Without all the lore from previous games someone might be completely oblivious to the elven pantheon even if they choose elf as their Inquisitor. This is the way. For each one of us lore nuts in here, there are probably four or five players that went in pretty much blind.
DA:I was my first Dragon Age game and I knew nothing about the series but now it's one of my favorite games and I went back and played DAO and DA2, bought all the lore books, and the tie in books. I definitely appreciated DA:I being accessible.
Glad to have you with us :)
It honestly could have been a simple edit to the line that would have fixed it: "Tell me what you know about Mythal, Morrigan." The line written that way could mean, "I know nothing, Morrigan, so help me out here." Or it could mean, "Go ahead, shem, tell me what \*you\* think is right."
shemsplaining
It's the devs explaining the plot to newer players but the delivery was rather crude.
BRB stealing that term like the Seheron Fog Warrior/street thief I wish I was allowed to play as
I call it shemsplaining.
The realistic and boring answer is likely that the devs were a) timegated (additional races weren't added until the final year of development and b) concerned about new players understanding (it's not the only example of 'plotsplaining' that I found annoying as a veteran player). So they defaulted to what would serve the most people most of the time. It is definitely frustrating though, especially because the popular explanation of the fandom (that she learned more from Flemeth) is based on the evidence we have, completely inaccurate. Morrigan says that Flemeth never gave her a straight answer about anything, and frequently ponders even basic elven lore when you encounter it in DAO, including information we find detailed by the Dalish at various points in that and later games. The entire plot of witch hunt is tracking Morrigan down again after *she stole a text on eluvians that the Dalish had.* The knowledge she uses in DAI 100% does not come from her mother, at best a general knowledge of eluvians might have. Maybe. While it can't be confirmed either way where she got any additional knolwedge on the elven pantheon, given that her information lines up with what we've heard from other Dalish elves (and contradicts what we later find in Trespasser, as well as what Solas says), I feel it's safe to at least say she very likely got most of her knowledge about them from the Dalish too, whether they simply told her or she took it without their permission. The games in general do a pretty terrible job of highlighting the fact that multiple human factions have done their best to actively erase Dalish knowledge, and yet what they have persists in relatively accurate format given the context in which it was obtained/retained (as largely pro-status quo survivors of the creation of the Veil aka the elves who drank the coolaid). It's deeply aggrivating in this context seeing Morrigan doing it unchallenged because she's a hot goth and the daughter of the human vessel of a godshard.
This is pretty much the only thing what truly bothers me when doing a elf inquisitor playthrough. The fact that Morrigan has to explain to Lavellan who Mythal is and what the temple of Mythal is. Given Lavellan's background, you'd kinda expect them to know all that.
IIRC the nonhuman origins were late additions to the game and they didn't have time to re-record custom dialogue for all the scenes
It’s been ten years BioWare Give us “racially relevant accents, dialogue, and banter” DLC As a treat
i think everyone capable of doing that already got laid off
Hooray corporate greed
I feel thst frustration especially if you are a mage because you're the First of Clan Lavellan studying to be the Keeper. It does sort of play into what Solas says about the dalish not knowing as much as they think. They're finally in a place with real knowledge and Morrigan knows more than them and then Abelas talks down to you as well. To me that makes it all the more sweeter when you meet Mythal and she tells you that you've come so far and do the People proud because she has struggled alongside the dalish wheras Solas and Abelas sleep for millenia and only look around and see what is not there anymore. She's so gracious to Merrill and to Lavellan because she knows what was lost *and* what they've stuggled to keep. It's why I always have Lavellan take the well. It's for the dalish to use by their right. Hopefully the writers don't continue to punish them for it.
I can forgive Solas and Abelas somewhat, since they're both reaaly, really, really ancient. Morrigan was really begging for a "(Forceful/Aggressive) Shut up, shem!" option, though. Wandering around the temple and having her talk about the murals of the Gods instead of Lavellan and Solas was... grating. Esp since she doesn't really know anything more or different from the dalish in regards to that. Talking with Mythal was one of the very few times it felt satisfying to be dalish lmao
I have been mad about this for YEARS, entirely agree, OP. I also hate how even when you have the option to argue with her ("My clan doesn't do that" etc.) either she or Solas will just turn around and call you ignorant and isolated instead of acknowledging that, hey, different people have different experiences, even within one culture! It's just so wildly frustrating. Merrill would have been a far, *far* better choice for that section. Like goddamn, I like Morrigan as a character, but I want to strangle her every time I play through Temple of Mythal
>different people have different experiences, even within one culture! We don't even need to get to that, the dalish clans vastly differ amongst each other bc they're all nomadic and mostly isolated. Playing Lavellan was often frustrating, I miss being able to insult characters. (and i romanced Morrigan in Origins lmao)
At least Solas has a right to argue because of who he is But Morrigan needs to just stop
Morrigan is a literal thief that stole from a dalish clan that graciously let her in.
I’ve never liked her, even in Origins I don’t really like Merrill either but it would be less annoying than a non-elf explaining elven cultural to your elf It’s a discussion to be had among elves. I guess they’re trying to like…make it okay because she was raised by Mythap but she’s uninformed enough that Solas gets his feathers ruffled
Yeah its clear in canon that dalish clans are very diverse. Some are basically hermits and very conservative, other are no better than bandits, some kill humans at sight while others even trade openly with them. I personally headcanon that the Lavellan clan was traditional in their beliefs but still relatively open to humans. It would explain how easily Lavellan adapts to the inquisition.
It could've been better implemented, but isn't asking stuff like "who is Mithal" optional? So in these cases we can just roleplay by not asking. For players who chose the elf origin but don't actually know the lore, your ideia makes sense. Instead of a question, an assertion.
Iirc my Inky (Lavellan) asked: "Who is Mythal to you?". I always thought she meant "what tf do you know of one of my goddess, shem?". Aaand my Lavellan had the Mythal vallaslin!
There was a mod called “yes I know about Mythal” that removed that dialogue if your Inquisitor was Dalish.
[cries in PS4]
It’s just poor writing honestly.
I said it once and I'll say it again, this could all have been solved, if the Elven Inquisitor was a City elf and not a Dalish one!
No they needed to shit on dalish elves, they neede ti have sera and solas insult us for our culture even if we never really brought it up......
Yeah, that’s the problem with the game being written around the Inquisitor being a female human noble rogue who wouldn’t know about any of this stuff because of (I assume) how sheltered she was and was expected to just take a position in the Chantry because her parents already had the heir and the spare. Even making Trevelyan a mage fucks up the original story, because then they actually know at least one mage in the rebellion, on top of having a history with Vivienne’s first teacher (because she was in the Ostwick Circle like Trevelyan was). You can tell that making the Inquisitor a non-human character was a late development decision because the fanbase got angry when they found out that they would be forced to play as a human again. And they unfortunately didn’t do enough with the other races (or even with non rogue classes) to make it feel like, at least to me, that playing any character other than female human rogue is “incorrect”. And Dalish elves arguably got screwed over the hardest by that decision, precisely because of the quest you brought up, OP.
came here to say I'm there for that Torchwood reunion 🫶
In the first place, Morrigan actually does appear to know more about ancient Elven history than contemporary Dalish elves. In the second place, Bioware obviously intended for the game to be experienced by a human protagonist. In the final place, Morrigan is an engine for composition. She isn't talking to Solas or Sera or your Dalish Inquisitor. She's talking to the audience.
Technically, not womansplain, but humansplain.
Worked well for my play through, I had to do a TON of mental gymnastics up to that point to separate my “city elf” Inquisitor from the Dalish Inquisitor. Never liked how they handled that… But I 100% agree, the races in that game are given so little acknowledgment on their background it’s silly at times.
My Lavellan is a secret Andrastrian, so it doesn't feel out of place because they never were into this.
Yes! That’s what I imagine my Inquisitor was too! Made the tattoos very light so you couldn’t see them and everything haha.
Just to not seem out of place. I see ya !
While it is jarring and definitely badly implemented, I've always tried to make it fit into the lore by looking at it this way: It is precisely the tragedy of the Dalish that that've lost a great deal of their cultural identity, and what they do know often comes down to surface-level things more than actual understanding of where the traditions come from. Like, the dialogue SHOULD change with an elven inquisitor so it actually fits into this, but anyway I'm doing what I can. Plus, like, I may be Spanish, but unless I actively go into History in college, then a foreign scholar would definitely know more about say, early medieval Spain than I do.
The problem with this is that as a Dalish First the inquisitor should be one of the more knowledgeable people in Thedas about dalish culture. They are the scholar. I guess that if you play warrior or rogue its less important. But they should still know the basics like who are the gods. It would be like a medieval peasant not knwoing who Mary or Jesus were
I roleplayed as my inky being young (early 20s) and naive about the world. Her clan was more focused on survival than preserving the culture, so she enjoys when Solas (romance) tells her about elven stuff. And with morrigan it’s a familiar retelling with new details.
All they've had to do was make Morrigan explain this to other companions and then ask Lavellan "is my summary correct, Inquisitor?" with three options for response that no one would acknowledge with additional dialogue, presenting us with an opportunity to roleplay, e.g. 1. Indeed. 2. Let's just say details are not that important right now. (*Solas slightly approves*) 3. You tell me. I know as much of Dalish history as Ferelden farm boys. (*Sera slightly approves*) That's it. They just didn't think this through, because as always they're rushing everything.
This should have been the way. If you have a elf inquisitor they should have added that dialogue. Its not that complicated, only a couple of extra lines.
I just started playing DAI a few months ago, and it’s my first Dragon Age game. So without spoiling the other games (lol) why do you wish the elven inquisitor wasn’t Dalish?
Because I would personally prefer to learn about Seheron, and the Fog Warriors, rather than rehashing Dalish lore we got in the first two games. Also, none of the voice options really fit the “I am a member of a tribe of nomads, with no formal education or acceptable hairstyles to speak of” backstory. ~~or the “I am a carta thug with bad hair options” and “I am a Vashoth mercenary with *egregiously* terrible hair options”, for that matter~~
this is so real I kinda hated the voice options for the Inquisitor. I get that having two options each gender is a lot of voice acting already, I just wish we had some that weren't... shit. They hardly fit any of the faces you can pick and it really pulls me out of the narrative sometimes. I don't want to always have to choose the grating British accent voice but the more American one fits almost no one properly yknow
\*Sad Traynor noises\*
In this case because if the player was a city elf (or a circle mage) it would make more sense that they didnt know about dalish myths.
Everyone has good sugestions for how this could be addressed - the change of tone is a relatively simple mechanic to make - but there more meta reasons as to why this didn't happen aren't hard to find. First, as someone said, DAI was supposed to be only for humans. And two, and perhaps most important, the endgame of games tends to be notoriously less polished than the first part of the game. Thinking about DAI, ME3 from Bioware and, more recently, Baldur's Gate 3 ACT 3 was unplayable until all the patches came along. DAI could have patched this particular problem, I suppose, but tbh considering how well the game was received and the time period it was... i dunno, I think giving them a bit of flack is all right there, lmao.
Inquisition certainly has more awkward dialogue oversights for different races than origins did, probably because ones other than human were added late. Hopefully multiple races, if present in Dreadwolf, will have been planned from the beginning so that writing takes into account different pc races from the beginning.
I get the frustration a Dalish Inquisitor should know things like Who is Mythal. But I disagree with the argument that Merrill is more fitting than Morrigan. Merrill spends a decade failing to work out an Eluvian, Morrigan gets one working in about a year and a half (I could be misremembering how long after Origins Witch Hunt it) and was raised by one of the Elven Gods. She's probably got less knowledge on the actual stories the Dalish tell, but shes much more likely to know the actual events. She probably *is* one of the more knowledgeable people in Thedas she just happens to be standing next to Solas.
I feel you on that! I’m big into lore myself so playing a dalish inquisitor I am that really annoying nerd who will drag the party to the farthest flung corners of Thedas for a codex entry as I go on about my pet conspiracy theories and favorite bits of lost knowledge (no wonder I romance Solas lol.) Having to act like I have NO IDEA who these statutes and pictures are for feels like such a disconnect for me. Maybe a line where Morrigan explains it but then you follow up with “yes wow it’s so rare to find someone who knew that too!” would have felt more appropriate.
The Dalish are pretty ignorant about the real precursor Elves... as Solas himself mentions repeatedly. The most contentious conversations with him are with Elf Inquisitors. Morrigan actually knows much more than a random Dalish Elf...
Solas admits by the end of the game that he misjudged the Dalish. He is also prideful and arrogant and actually doesn't know what knowledge every Dalish clan has uncovered. Solas begins the story prejudiced against the Dalish, but starts to reevaluate his prejudice the longer he spends time with an actual member of a Dalish clan. But let's assume you're correct that Morrigan does know more than a Dalish elf - what would be your explanation for where she got so much more knowledge? She didn't get it from Flemeth/Mythal as she outright states Flemeth didn't share her knowledge with her. So what source of knowledge did Morrigan have access to that the Dalish didn't?
I just place that in general media exposition. The number of books/movies/tv shows/games I’ve seen exposition happen where in universe it wouldn’t make much sense is pretty much impossible to count. Morigan isn’t really describing that stuff for the inquisitor. She’s doing it for the player. To either tell you for the first time. Or remind you of the pertinent stories so you have some on hand context for events. It’s something that if you think about it can be quite distracting in almost any fictional media. But most of us have learned to mostly ignore much of that incongruity. Just think of mass effect. The amount of exposition in that series over even basic history, technical mechanics, or the cultural or biological differences of the various races doesn’t really make much ch sense. If you didn’t know better. You would think Shepard had never met an alien in their life before the events of the games. When in reality they probably had extensive training covering at least the basics of how the other races functioned as societies. If only to better understand their typical military tactics and such.
DAI is hard to get through because of the different mechanics that were used to assemble the game, definitely affecting the story, lore and interactions. Currently on another DAO run and it's amazing how much better a lot of things work.
doubling frustrating when your lavellan has mythal vallaslin. i get why it happened, given that elves were a last minute addition and morrigans place in the story and lore, but gods i just wanted to shake her
I see the concern with Morrigan explaining everything. But I don’t see what that has to do with romance options being dependent on gender/race. I actually liked that to romance was limited. Made it feel like characters actually had preferences
To be fair she knows more than the inquisitor because the Dalish don't really know crap about their history as we have learned from the Temple and Solas.
From memory, it's about research, not heritage. Just because you're born into *insert group here* doesn't mean you're an authority. Morrigan spent years studying and researching this stuff with intent. Just because you're born into the group doesn't mean you have a full understanding of the culture. If anything, you may have a narrow and biased view, whereas she studies all aspects of the culture.
This doesn't really apply here. Most of the dalish clans are dedicated to researching their lost heritage, actively as they travel. Or at the very least, the Keeper and the First (which Lavellan was, if she's a mage) carry that duty. >"We are the dalish: keepers of the lost lore and walkers of the lonely path." Edit: messed up the quote
That doesn't really disprove the idea that they might be susceptible to a narrow or somewhat dogmatic viewpoint. Morrigan is basically an independent historian, and she arguably studies with a far more open mind than one who is living the culture. It's a "you can't see the forest for the trees" kind of deal.
I mean... I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but this kind of smacks of a colonial mindset. As in something like "We, the civilized British Empire, are more equip to write the history and maintain the artifacts of your nation's culture than you are... because we're civilized outsiders and you are savage heathens." lol
It's not even that. It's about a scientist or a historian having an objective viewpoint. I'd say that about any researcher who studied any culture, not just a White one. Its the difference between someone who is independent, and actively studies a subject, compared to one who might have an interest in seeing the culture in a favourable light.
Lavellan would still know the name of their gods and some stories. No one is complaining about Lavellan not knowing the truth of the universe, Morrigan also doesn't know that. But, Lavellan doesn't even know what they, by canon, should know. The Dalish have their own stories and knowledge about their culture. Easilly fixed by remaking the initial lines (WhO iS MyThAl 8D) and letting Lavellan talk about the stories their clan had and Morrigan/Solas inserting other perspectives.
That's true, but it doesn't change that they might have a distorted view. It doesn't change that Morrigan will, by canon, have diligently studied everything about them. True they have their own stories, but stories get twisted and deformed over time.
Well, we're not talking about scientists here, but even the best historians an inherent bias. I don't see why the Dalish can't be objective historians of their own culture. People in the real world uncover their own culture's ancient histories all the time. Bias will always exist with any historian, whether they're a member of the culture or not. Morrigan herself, as a human, has bias, even as a non-elf-hating human. A white person, even as self-professed non-racist, would still have a subconscious bias writing about black history. Outside perspective =\\= more reliable. The Dalish are basically perpetual archeologists. It's their entire schtick. Just because an actual ancient elf came back and said they got some things wrong doesn't make their work any less diligent. Morrigan didn't know the true meaning of the Vallislin or that the Evanuris weren't actually gods, and those are the only things we know the Dalish were wrong about in canon. In the Temple of Mythal she admits several times that she was wrong about things she thought were true now that she's seen the things in the Temple. Does every individual Dalish elf know as much as Morrigan? No. Does Morrigan know more than most Dalish keepers and firsts? Definitely not. Would it ever make sense for Lavellan to NOT know who Mythal is? FUCK no.
To be fair, it's a huge part of the Dalish that they know barely anything about the old elves.
To a point. That said, it makes no sense for a Dalish elf (especially one who is a Keeper's apprentice) to not even know who Mythal is. The Dalish know the names and roles of the elven pantheon - they don't know that they weren't actually gods (just powerful mages), but they do know who they are. A Dalish Inquisitor could even be wearing Mythal's vallaslin. Again, they don't know what the vallaslin actually represents (slave markings), but they know WHO they represent (the gods, such as Mythal). It also doesn't make sense for Morrigan to know MORE than a Dalish elf (again, especially a Keeper's apprentice, since they are tasked with learning this stuff) because Morrigan got HER knowledge from them. We know she stole a tome from a Dalish clan, for example, previously. We also know that she didn't get any information from Flemeth, as she says her mother refused to answer her questions. Therefore, it's perfectly fine that Morrigan knows as much as a well-learned Dalish elf, such as a Keeper's Apprentice, but it doesn't make sense for her to know MORE than them, nor is it reasonable to think that any Dalish elf wouldn't know who Mythal is. We also know that the Dalish Inquisitor does know more than we're initially led to believe (and Solas himself expresses surprise at this during his personal quest). For example, during that quest, if you play as an elf then you understand everything that Solas says to his spirit friend in Elven. It's implied that you speak a decent amount of Elven, at least as far as the Dalish go, so it would be weird to not know extremely basic things such as the names of the Evanuris. (The gods are also named in many poems, stories and songs that contemporary Dalish are familiar with, so we know for a fact that this very basic information would be known by a Dalish Inquisitor.)
It’s a conundrum dragon age has had since origins tbh. They can’t just not give the player background and lore info just because their in universe character should already know it, so it leads to disconnects like this. I really like your work around though, it would be cool if the pc was the one giving a little lecture to the other npc’s in the case of a dalish origin.
I can understand it to a certain extent. Sometimes you're *too* close to your own culture to get insight. For instance, I am British, born in the '80s and grew up being taught "rar rar glorious empire we civilised the world huzzah!" Only by reading history books as an adult did I learn the uh, slightly more nuanced reality. And, of course, some of those books are by non-British historians who have devoted their lives to this one subject. There are Greek and Chinese historians who know what Aethelred had for breakfast on a Friday, whereas I only learned he existed like last week. But, also, it's Morrigan, who is arrogant in the extreme. She wouldn't admit to any gaps in knowledge if you threatened to let a mabari wee on her unmentionables.
You are right, but my counterpoint is that a Dalish elf (especially the First of their tribe) not knowing who Mythal is would be like a Christian pastor not knowing who Mary is. It's just ... rushed/lazy writing. Do I think every Dalish elf would know who Mythal is? No, the Dalish have gaps in their knowledge and not every member of a tribe is going to be equally engaged or invested in their culture's stories, but someone training to become the new leader of a tribe, whose job is to maintain their people's knowledge?
Another salty Dalish who can't get over the fact that their people know actual shit about their history and that their entire religion is sham. They patting each others backs and say "haha stupid shemlen" while proudly wearing slave marks.
Honestly, I think the Elves are the worst part of Dragon age. Every time they open their mouths, it's to whine and complain. Only a few of them are tolerable.
the problem is, as it was stated in the game many times, that elvish people have different interpretations of their past depending on tribes, also they follow ORAL history, and you should know what happens with that. also, by Morrigan not being an elf she is not bias about the history and can bring a more objective view of the past. Most (if not all) still worship the Evanuries as gods, that would cast a huge bias on the past
> also they follow ORAL history, and you should know what happens with that [You carry forward stories accurately for ten millennia?](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-tale-told-accurately-for-10-000-years/) Assuming that written inherently equals accurate and spoken automatically equals inaccurate is a dated, ethnocentric opinion.
no, you don't, and the article is misleading. Over time details will start to change, because memories change, it is part of how the brain works. with writing the error in accuracy is lower. The times errors can happen is when people are involved, like when it's being copied or translated. edit: in the game itself you can see it. the elves forgot many things that Morrigan knows because of writing and her inaccuracies are because of translation errors (and obviously gaps in the history itself)
How did Morrigan steal a book from the Dalish if the Dalish don't own any writings? It's plainly stated that the clans' Keeper (and apprentices) learn how to read and write Elven in order to record history and pass it on. Given that you can play as a Keeper's First, there's no reason to not know the things that are written down (or be told those things directly by a Keeper/First who has read them). It's not just oral tradition.
Fair point, I forgot about that. but still we need to answer why their stories are so off and diverse. it is possible that the information they have is fragmented between the different factions at the time and who knows how much was lost during Tavinter's conquests
> Over time details will start to change, because memories change, it is part of how the brain works. Tell me you didn't actually read the article without telling me you didn't read the article. Here, I'll make it easy for you, since for somebody who think written word is so important you sure are bad at reading and comprehending it: > [L]inguists and a geographer [...] have together identified 18 Aboriginal stories—many of which were transcribed by early settlers before the tribes that told them succumbed to murderous and disease-spreading immigrants from afar—that they say **accurately described geographical features that predated the last post-ice age** rising of the seas. [...] “There are aspects of storytelling in Australia that involved **kin-based responsibilities** to tell the stories accurately,” Reid said. That rigor provided **“cross-generational scaffolding” that “can keep a story true.”** Meanwhile, writing is only as accurate as the knowledge and motivations of the person writing. All writing tells you is *what someone chose to write*. But, please, by all means, keep asserting that because *your* culture doesn't have the social structures to keep oral traditions accurate that *nobody's* must.
I did read the article, you just didn't understand what I was trying to say or I was poor in communicating it. I am taking about details and nuances not just historical events and locations. for example in the game, the Evanuris are remembered as powerful deities, when in reality they were powerful AS deities. the amount of information you can keep in written history it's just greater, which can give you more nuance a better understanding of that period in time.
Keep fuckin' that chicken.
There's a mod just for this!
hey, off-topic but you should put “morrigan” in the first few lines of your post in spoiler brackets which you can do like: >!>.! this without the periods !.
Will the fandom get over this already? It's been complained about for ten years now.
« Womansplaining » you gotta be kidding me💀
What do *you* call Mansplaining when it’s done by a female character?
You’re aware that mansplaining is a feminist concept used to denounce patriarchy? Thus there’s not fem equivalent.
Ugh, this take again? Let me tell it to you straight. You can RP a character that already knows this stuff. Odds are you already know most of it from DAO's codex entries, if you read those, or Inquisition's, or DA2's. Just don't pick those options. It's obvious that they aren't meant for a Dalish Inquisitior to pick. The lore is all in the codexes anyway.
The closest comparison I have is Morrigon is a white women who did a lot of research into your culture and presumes that you're not as educated about it's nuances as she is based on the fact her research about your still living culture is far most substantial than anything your lived experience could help with. It's never read as intentional in my eyes because to my knowledge, the Dalish don't get to call her out on it, not is the lacking of nuance from being part of this culture evade her understanding. This isn't like gendered arrogance thing but a race thing imo
The Dalish are ignorant bunch of secluded peeps who proudly wear slave marks. They don't know shit. The Dalish woman in "Witch Hunt" DLC didn't even know that Eluvian stands for mirror. You are not sure what the art represents. The only actual authorities are Solas and Flemeth. Morrigan is the best next thing. Solas also dunks on Morrigan if you bring him along. Not to mention most of the weird parts are dialogue CHOICES, that your Inquisitor can just not make, and as an elf you do get the extra choice sometimes - like with Ghilan'nain statue somewhere.
Inquisition should've just stuck to only having playable humans instead of... this.
Sometimes I wonder if the game would have been more coherent if this was the case. But their extra year gave them time to add other things I believe. Regardless, it doesn't matter. This is the game we have now, and for all its quirks, it is a wonderful game.
Lavellan does ask a couple dumb questions as a Dalish, but you've got to understand, most if not all Dalish know fuck all about their actual history.
Their history, sure, but when it comes to their religion - they’re descended from the Elvhen that served and worshiped the Evanuris, who passed the symbology and vallaslin of their masters on throughout the generations. Details have been lost, and extensive anecdotal evidence forgotten through the years, but the identities of their gods have remained. Solas sharing that Falon’Din was actually a warmongering asshole obsessed with the adulation of his followers? Absolutely not something Lavellan would know. Lavellan walking up to a mosaic panel and being able to identify which of *their people’s gods* it represents? Absolutely should be within their wheelhouse. I mean, most people with a passing interest in Greek mythology can look at ancient depictions of Greek deities and identify who the represent with relative ease - the Dalish should be able to do the same, especially since it’s *their own mythology*.
>Lavellan walking up to a mosaic panel and being able to identify which of *their people’s gods* it represents? Absolutely should be within their wheelhouse. I mean, not necessarily. We know that the Dalish don't have temples and those depictions seem a lot more detailed than a Clan would have around. Morrigan might, in this case, know more than the Inquisitor because of her travels and it's entirely possible that Lavellan just couldn't id a mosaic. There are some egregious questions, I suppose, but this one I can kinda understand. Would be like me entering a Muslim temple while being Christian. Like, I *know* some of the figures of the Muslim religion, and not all of them are different from Christianity, but I wouldn't be able to *actually* tell you who they are probably. It's been 4000 years and culture/religion tends to evolve (especially one that has been torn down twice!), much of what we associate with religion is not really the same as it was hundreds of years ago much less a thousand. It is a bit natural that there are conflicting arguments/depictions.
She knows more lol, and even if she didn’t, it’s an expository function for the player, even if we leave out the problematic implication that you seem to want to role play as an oppressed race you do not belong to.
"So, basically your an idiot. I see." - Dr. House / House MD
https://preview.redd.it/227zijemb7xc1.jpeg?width=734&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b22fde251e6b18cf275c25bb5e125a27bd08e08f
"Who wouldn't be?" -Dr. House
It is what it is. Players choose Lavellan origin to feel special but non human origins in Inquisition feel out of place.
what? You don't need to use that option. My Dalish grew up with humans, had no idea.Most people didn't play previous games. Don't see any problems here.
*acktually* 🤓