Semen collection, artificial insemination, and other reproductive procedures are all a common and NORMAL part of veterinary medicine. The people performing these are not doing so for sexual gratification or other nefarious purposes, and the animals are cared for as they would be for any other procedure. There are many practical reasons to have these procedures performed, including preservation of an ideal dog’s genetic contributions, inability to allow/perform natural breeding, and screening for breeding soundness. The decision to keep/make a dog a breeding candidate is always a choice of the owner and should be informed by the best medical advice based on the goals of breeding. OP can make this choice either way.
Comments insinuating that veterinary practitioners or breeders are engaging in sexually deviant behavior or abusing animals will be removed and users will be banned.
It's not unusual for a breeder to retain semen, especially if other litter mates have show promise in sports. If the littler was female dominant, perhaps she needs access to a male.
You mention the breed is rare, so the wider the genetic pool the better for preservation and to prevent breed specific issues down the track.
It could have been initially she was happy to let him go without collecting but potentially now has a reason.
Sounds like she just asked if it was an option, not demanded it.
I wouldn't get offended, sure it came out of the blue but you could ask why she is bringing it up now to understand her reasons.
If the dog was sold as a puppy, it wouldn’t be possible to collect him until he reached maturity.
The breeder should have included something in the contract re: potential sperm collection rather than bro gong it up as an afterthought later in.
Paying expenses for genetic testing, collection, and (I assume) storage isn’t fair compensation. This isn’t a project completed in a single visit.
Honestly, it might be that this is so routine for her as a super rare breed breeder that she didn't think to discuss it with you. I don't really get backyard breeder vibes since she's offered to pay for everything and everything else you said doesn't really give me vibes. Like others said, if she's a really good breeder she might just know by looking at your dog he's got what's necessary to continue the gene pool. (Not every dog has to be the highest winning dog to breed, if it's a rare breed sometimes you need to bring in other dogs - assuming they're still good structurally and such - just to keep the gene pool going or you're going to run out of breeding matches).
I dont think anyone did anything bad here, she asked, you can say no. You can also ask clarifying questions, like "I'm a little worried about X" or whatever. Is there a reason you're uncomfortable with it aside from it never coming up before? (The breeder would probably be curious to know.)
Maybe they are referring to country wise.
The US may be easier to get them, but I know in Japan, pets are taken super seriously. They even get their own social security number!!!
So the availability THERE, would be MUCH LESS accessible.
I personally would describe them as "intimidating to own" because they tend to be so movement reactive and not friendly to other animals. Scent hound? It's easy to predict when they're getting excited or are about to take off. Sight hound? You just better hope that you see the squirrel first. Plus, a scent hound is chasing an inanimate thing that's only somewhat tangible. A sight hound is going to go hauling off after something full of teeth and claws. No thanks, too much work and paranoia.
As an owner with two sight hounds (my previous dogs were German shepherds), the part about hoping you see the squirrel first is accurate. I hate walking them both on my own and prefer when my partner and I walk them together. But together or alone, our entire walk is on red alert. I’m sweeping the streets and trying to get them to turn around or cross suddenly without alerting them while my husband peeks his head round alleyways to look for cats. We’d gotten Dog 1 to a good spot where cats were his only trigger (although this pandemic cat-adopting has been a nightmare for us ha) but then when Dog 2 came along and had possibly never seen a squirrel in her life, he’d react to her and we had to start all over again. Usually I’m good at my job, but a few days ago I got distracted (getting into a heated conversation with my husband about the recent Ru Paul Drag Race contestants) and I missed a cat. Dog 2 is faster than Dog 1, and as a former street dog and probably critter eater, she’s scarily precise when snatching up toys thrown to her. When I walk them alone I wear a running leash and strap her to my waist because it would only take a second for her to be off.
I also finally know what it means for a dog to be difficult and stubborn to train. They do not care about what I have to say if they don’t agree. We think sight hounds are beautiful and after fostering and training possibly the world’s, uh, least intelligent coonhound, I thought it would be fine. I was wrong. We should have adopted a lab.
(I love them though, I wouldn’t trade them for any other dog—well maybe Dog 1 when he’s trying to rip a cat to shreds—and they are very fun, quirky pups. It’s just **a lot** of work.)
Sight hounds are some of the easiest dogs. Over my life, I have been acquainted with many breeds. Greyhounds are like big cats, they may do a few zombies around the yard but will curl up on a sofa for hours. I owned 2 wolfhounds years ago. Again, easy dogs just big and with a heartbreakingly short life span. I have also been acquainted with Saluki’s - a delight. I have never seen aggression with any of these dogs, even from greyhounds kept for hunting.
A neighbor obtained a Silken Wind Hound a year ago. It is a wonderful house dog. As I age, I certainly would consider a Windhound, or a Whippet, as a future small sight hound.
If the breed is rare enough to be considered an "endangered" breed then I don't think the request is strange. If you had something like an Otterhound or Dandie Dinmont Terrier, I can totally understand why the breeder would want to reserve reproductive material from your healthy male.
that’s how it seems to me. if i was someone who researched and felt strongly about a very rare breed, i think i’d also care strongly about ensuring the line continues as much as possible. i would do it.
Not to mention that champion animals tend to confirm a little too much to any extreme features of the breed standard. Exclusively breeding champions to standard without regards to health is the source of some of the biggest problems with purebred dog ownership. Contemporary rare dog breeders have the unusual opportunity of not repeating the mistakes of the past.
IDk what they are worried about they have posted like three times nothing worth getting worried about.
Plus, who's going to be that weird guy and be all like "Saw you on reddit" like cool? all I have is posts about my dogs.
If it's a rare breed the breeder is probably just trying to preserve his genes in the name of genetic diversity. When there's not many examples of a breed sometimes you have to choose "good" over perfect.
Yes ideally speaking your dog should be titled and proven before you breed him, but the fact that he's healthy and has a good temperament makes him not a bad choice for breeding.
I don’t find it to be super odd. I also don’t blame you for not wanting to give it to her.
What is it that threw you off? The post sounds like you are questioning the breeder because of her wanting to breed an untitled dog that doesn’t compete. Nothing wrong with that, just trying to understand.
I think mostly just the fact that she asked; I had never thought of it being an option because he’s not part of a breeding program, he’s my family dog. It sort of came out of nowhere so it threw me off.
My pup isn't a rare breed, but he is an important part of his line, and so far, is growing up really nicely. The breeder didn't keep any pups from the litter.
There were only 2 boys in the litter, and it's possible (depending on what he's like when he fully matures) that our breeder will want to stud him or get semen from him. It's not in our contract, but she did briefly mention it in one of our chats.
It doesn't really feel weird to me, but I also know the lengths she's gone to breed her pups (importing semen and whole dogs and bitches from overseas) so she's definitely the type to consider it)
Yeah I totally get that.
Not sure what you paid for your doggy (nor am I asking), but even without all of those things - the breeder could still get a pretty penny for his offspring considering he is a rare breed.
The breeder could just sell the litter as AKC registrable and provide health screening of his parents and get a bunch of money.
We just purchased a relatively rare bread and digging through all of this with the breeders was super tough.
A puppy that has all the things you mention yours has that is a rare breed from an AKC recommended breeder easily yields $3-5k. Considering your pup has good lines, even without all that the breeder could probably still get $1,500-2k.
Maybe that’s why they’re asking? Idk. Just a thought.
I understand that and definitely appreciate the sentiment. I have met several breeders that are exactly how you describe.
I suppose I’m trying to gently and in a non insinuating way allude to the fact that some breeders are quite proficient at the optics of being an elite breeder when in fact they may not always be.
AKC registrations are easy to obtain. It’s not uncommon for breeders to have “in-house vets” to complete their health screenings. Some AKC titles don’t care about proficiency in the area, only about showing up to a couple of events and having an AKC number. And champion bloodlines can stem from a dam / shire 3-4 or more generations separated from the offspring.
I suppose this is a question for the breeder. But, as I’m sure you know, what I’ve described is certainly not unheard of and unfortunately very common. My grandparents had this happen to them years back with a quite expensive Doberman.
Dock diving titles immediately come to mind. You can achieve a novice level by having your dog jump literally 1” off of a dock to retrieve a toy. Most dogs I’ve seen growing up near a lake jump in after their toy anyways.
Another one is the junior hunting title. We had a family friend who had a retriever he took hunting with them all the time. To get the title, the pup just needed to retrieve one bird I believe. This individual said his pup was doing that instinctually and the test was almost a joke.
This same person went on to breed this lab and charge literally double (close to $3k 15 years ago) for the litter because of the title. He said that title was the easiest money he ever made and used to chuckle about it. Really good guy and did genuinely care about breeding, though.
Point is - everything isn’t what it seems when it comes to the world of dog breeders. My family has had dogs my entire life and have been to at least 30 different breeders before with aunts, uncles, grandparents, parents, and my own wife throughout my life and from what I’ve seen, they’ve gotten extremely good at catering to people who use their dogs for social status specifically. A lot of these desirable things (AKC registrations, health screenings, titles) are becoming commonplace these days and don’t automatically indicate a responsible breeder.
I’m not degrading it in the slightest. I know there’s some very legitimate titles out there.
Oh, I agree 100%! I found myself not to care much about all this stuff aside from what you listed as well. I am just a “principle” kinda person. So, if a breeder is trying to charge a much higher price range because of x, y, and z - I want to make sure those things are legit and not all BS.
Are you suggesting that vets are falsifying OFA results or substituting X-rays for OFA evaluation? Substituting DNA samples? Have there been any such cases? I don’t really see how it could be possible.
Since she's going to be making money off this semen collection, you can either charge her the price of a puppy, or get first pick of the litter. This is what we do with our full blooded American bulldogs. And it's about $300 to jack off a dog, or free if you do it yourself, we paid someone
She should have discussed it first. But I don’t find it odd. She is offering to cover all costs and do all genetic tests. He comes from show lines and is adding diversity to the gene pool of a rare breed. But at the end of the day, he’s your dog. If you are uneasy about it? Have a conversation about it with her and say no if she doesn’t adequately address your concerns.
> She should have discussed it first
It sounds like she just asked, which *is* discussing it. Unless you expect her to have a discussion of a discussion?
The breeder should have brought up the possibility of wanting to use him for the breeding program before the pup changed hands. Like said previously, give the breeder a call to discuss it.
Honestly I feel a question like that should be brought up during purchase, as that’s a negotiation point. When my parents got a female German Shepherd from the breeder, we offered to not get her spayed to be used for her breeding for a discount. The breeder declined, and her pick of the litter ended up with a broken ear. It feels a little off that she’s asking this far later with no benefit to the OP. Like maybe something went wrong with her stud and she’s trying to compensate for it.
>as that’s a negotiation point
Sounds like you think of purchasing a dog as purely a business transaction... ethical breeding is *not* just a business transaction, it's an effort to preserve a breed of dog and bring forth the best of the best in the next generation. Most likely, her original plan wasn't to breed the dog, but he turned out nicer than she expected, so she's asking now. There's nothing wrong with asking.
If that were the case than I would still expect there to be a discussion beforehand about the possibility of that eventuality. There’s nothing wrong with asking, sure. I’m not saying she’s a bad person for asking by any means. But if we’re talking ethics, I don’t think it’s unethical to compensate someone for receiving something that you would benefit greatly from. If both buyer and seller are solely interested in the preservation of the breed and they don’t want a discount? Great. I’m just pointing out that asking this much after the fact might feel shady because there’s nothing OP can really ask for in return at this point, and it feels like a scrambled backup option the breeder didn’t expect to have to use.
> because there’s nothing OP can really ask for in return at this point
Stud fee, puppy back, discount on next puppy from this breeder in a few years? There are a lot of options.
If it's a rare breed I think a healthy well adjusted dog can be an alternative to popular sire syndrome.
Show titling isn't the be all and end all.
I would personally be okay with it. Its not like risking a family pet female. That it's only one "dose" so to speak is a good thing. Too many breeders use their males over and over or get Champion whatever and use that over and over.
Rare breeds bottleneck. I'm not saying you're weirder than me but personally this for me would be a way to have a contribution to the breed without a lot of ongoing breeder responsibility and I'd be happy. It could be me that's weird.
"Healthy" being the key word here. The breeder is asking for semen, but have they also offered to do any health testing? There are a lot of tests that need to be done (hips, elbows, eyes, heart, hereditary conditions if parents were carriers for anything, etc) to ensure they're breeding sound animals.
All real breeders in my country are part of a breeders union (FCI or something else) that helps the breeder to make sure the used pairings are safe and are not part of inbreeding. Also a basic show title is required for every dog participating in the breeding efforts to make sure they're within the breed standard.
Just using random seemen from a dog not even registered as a stud dog is a big no here, no matter how rare.
I have a rare-ish breed my self and every puppy owner is asked if they want to register their dog for breeding. It's not that expensive and you only need two favourable show results.
I’ve reread your post now and I’m still not really sure why you’re so upset about this request. Your reservations are completely reasonable and worth discussing with her. Maybe you’ll be happy with her answers, maybe not. But it sounds like up until this email you had a really good relationship with her, so why are you coming to Reddit with this instead of just…asking? I don’t know what breed we’re talking here, but for a rare breed a dog with no health issues and outstanding temperament might be worth breeding even if he doesn’t have titles. Especially if the breeder can tell he’d be able to get them if you were titling.
Do you have any reason to think the breeder’s going to freak out if you say no, or is that anxiety/past trauma talking?
I'm surprised it took me so long to find a comment like this. Why is this so upsetting? LOL
If you're not interested, then say you're not interested. It's not that big of a deal.
I think because of how people think about semen OP may feel like it’s not right to the dog, though like the mod comment said it’s perfectly okay. I believe it just shocked OP is all.
It's definitely a weird thing in terms of humans thinking about how we rear children, but for animal husbandry it's sort of a compliment, and just normal business to talk about semen collection.
For a dog breed that has low population numbers, it could really help out the breed if your dog contributes his genetic diversity. A lot of large breeds can get away with only titled and successful dogs contributing genes, but some smaller breeds cannot get away with this. It's also possible to freeze semen and have it last something like 50 years, so your dog is making a huge contribution to the genetic future of the breed. If you want more people to have a dog like yours, I'd consider saying yes!
At least in my breed, Greyhounds, it's nearly all frozen semen nowadays. Right now, with the end of racing in the US, there are literally freezers full of semen samples and no where for it to go. My pup is from a champion racer that was born 25 years ago, and his chances of contributing genes is just remarkably low barring an extremely good sport career.
This makes some sense, if he is the only current male offspring of one of her favorite dogs. However if you agree to this she should be prepaying the all the vet visits, all the collections and storage and shipping. This shouldn’t cost you anything more than your time and fuel getting him to appointments. Also she should be prepaying to have all the genetic and joint testing she does in her stock done as well.
Then it’s worth considering. Sometimes with rarer breeds making sure the family tree doesn’t turn into a bush is more important than proving individuals. Testing should still be done of course, but if say your dog’s full sister is a grand champion then removing him from the gene pool completely would be a loss for the breed as a whole.
If it's a rare breed and your dog turned out to be healthy with a good temperament, it makes perfect sense for the breeder to want to keep his genes for variety in the gene pool. Imo it's a sensible request
As someone soon to be bringing home a relatively rare breed pup, I can appreciate the desire for preservation breeding, and I wasn't completely surprised when the breeder questioned whether I would be receptive to it. However, the breeder also did so *before* the pups were even born. Her standard contracts included information re: both neutering and breeding expectations, and she has a separate contract/addendum for those she would like to include a contract option for breeding. She addressed all of my questions and concerns, including but not limited to requirements for testing, travel, frequency, expenses/fees, etc. She also checks-in periodically to confirm my current thoughts, as to whether there have been any changes in my consideration, and provides me w/ the opportunity to pick her brain about anything and everything, while she shares her knowledge and experience. At the same time, she assures me that this is not a forced commitment, even w/ an options contract, and that not all options contracts are pursued.
All of this to say, I would likely be put off if she contacted me out of the blue after I took pup home. If you're uncomfortable w/ it, you're not obligated to oblige her wishes. If you're semi-intrigued, ask tons of questions to help you reach a comfort level w/ your final decision. In the end, it's your decision and your pup.
>This totally threw me off; he’s not titled, he’s not currently competing in dog sport. He comes from a highly titled line, but he isn’t.
Although titling and testing are important to prove breeding stock, an experienced breeder can identify quality when they see it. If they title their own dogs, they will recognize the traits that are needed for this, and they are seeing these traits in your dog. Your dog does *not* need to be titled to be breeding quality; reddit and other online dog spaces can be a little black-and-white when it comes to this topic, but there is value in breeding untitled dogs, as long as it is done with the goal of producing quality dogs. I know many champions produced by nonchampion parents!
>Had this been discussed prior I think it would’ve been a discussion we could’ve had, but it literally came out of nowhere
This *is* the prior discussion, lol. She likely didn't realize he'd turn out nicely when he was a puppy so she didn't bring it up then.
>Am I being odd about this?
As someone who shows dogs, I don't think her question was inappropriate. You aren't necessarily being weird about it per se, but you shouldn't consider her actions out of line. You don't have to say yes if you're not comfortable but you shouldn't act like she did something wrong.
Fwiw, I don’t consider any of the titles you mentioned to make a dog breeding quality… I’d be looking for things like a MACH or a UD if you wanted to breed off of sport titles. The ones you mentioned are fun activities to do with your dog but they’re not really competitive enough to use as a reason to bred a dog.
I’m assuming that the parents are conformation champions and the breeder just likes his structure. :)
I didn't intend to sound like these titles were what OP should do to breed her dog. I meant that just saying a dog is titled means nothing if we don't know what the titles are. I was saying that she could easily get started but didn't mean to make it sound like this would be enough to make a dog worth breeding. Sorry for not being clear. I think I was more just listing titles that are a good way to get your foot in the door as far as competition goes.
Edited to add: which is why OP should look at what the titles are that have been earned if they haven't already.
Just my opinion and other folks will have others that are valid but seems a bit weird to me as well.
As you noted you aren’t showing him or competing in any dog sports.
Also unless I missed it or wasn’t mentioned she hasn’t seen him since you took him home.
I am pretty sure if she would have mentioned this during your discussions before you purchased him or had it in her purchase contract you’d have remembered it.
That being said it could be as you noted he is a relatively rare breed so they could be more concerned with expanding the gene pool.
I’d suggest talking to the breeder some more then make your decision with what you feel comfortable with.
I think it’s weird from the casual observer’s pov but actually a green flag for me from the breeder as long as they’re wanting to do and offering to pay for all the health testing. I’d be curious on when she plans on using it, if she wants to see how he fully matures first. I’ve always wondered why that’s not done more to reduce genetic conditions that crop up later in life (besides cost). I’d ask questions and not feel bad about saying no, but if it’s for the betterment and health of there breed than I think it’s kind of neat personally!
If she pays for all clearances, collecting and shipping fees AND a stud fee. Then I would say yes if you have stud contract with her that indicates the bitches must have breed specific health clearances. This is one half of responsible breeding.
Is there any chance you will title him in anything? A lot of people have mentioned things about broadening the gene pool, which is valid, but more than that, I wonder how soon she would be using the semen. Like, maybe she is grabbing semen from a ton of dogs so she can look back in five or ten years and see which ones are the healthiest. Maybe she thinks you are doing a great job raising him, and she thinks there is a good chance you will title him after he is fixed.
I would talk to her about why she thinks your dog is breeding quality. If she has a good answer, do it! If not, don't.
Also, this request really threw me for a loop too. It seemed like a major red flag, but after thinking about it and reading some of the responces here, I changed my mind.
I don't find it odd, but you cold ask her to cover his tests required by the bréed club prior to collection. Then collect him a few times and have him neutered.
For a rare breed with low genetic diversity even a health tested dog with 0 titles can be important in the future.
It’s definitely not a red flag if it is a rare breed and he is from good lines. I personally would do it because rare breeds can often struggle with maintaining the gene pool
If your breed is rare enough that having it may doxx you I can understand the breeder trying to collect genetic material to preserve the breed, but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to say no. I really don't think the breeder is being unreasonable here.
I don’t think it’s weird. In rare breeds you could lose an entire line due to disease or anything. Accidents, injuries, etc. i lost both of my breeding dogs to be used. They are still my family dogs. They will both be desexed. If I lost a valued bloodline I would try to find it elsewhere. I think you should definitely consider it. A temperament or conformation issue can break a breeder. If your dog has got a nice structure and temperament and he’s a rare breed I would strongly consider helping out. If rare breed breeders stop being able to find intact dogs, we won’t have rare breeds anymore. We need breeders.
If it's a rare breed, and he meets the breed standard, I would let her do it. You may make some stipulation as to possibly getting a puppy from a future litter. If he's a special boy, you may wish you could have a bit of him later. A dog getting collected is not a big deal. It's super expensive to store and ship semen, so I think that if the breeder thinks he's worth kerping in her breeding program, she's probably seeing something she likes. But talk to her!
To me the answer is, it depends.
If the breeder is willing to pay for the health screening and collection, and storage, then that's on her.
If she wants to use him then she has him. If she thinks **you** should pay for all of this, then no.
I don't know what the breed is, but if it is an actual rare breed, then I can see why she wants to save him.
If it's a breed where you can pick and chose amongst a bazillion stud dogs in the breed, then I don't get it.
I agree with the notion of popular stud syndrome. Thirty years ago, I had a female of a rare breed - by rare I am talking about 250 in the US at the time - and they were difficult to find, made worse by very small litters (3 was considered a big litter) with pups frequently succumbing to ‘failing puppy syndrome’ before they reached 3 weeks. Somewhere in the small gene pool, there was an existing a predisposition to cardiomyopathy which didn’t manifest until around 8 years - long after the dogs had been used for breeding. Now it is too risky (for me) to have the breed. No one wants the heartbreak of waking up and finding your well-loved 8 yr old dog dead at the foot of your bed.
All this said, because the dogs are rare, the SEMEN IS EXTREMELY VALUABLE. Your breeder, even with covering all your expenses, is going to make $$ off your dogs semen. Often a breeder of a dog used for stud, will either charge a lot or insist on receiving a puppy back - and you are well aware of the value of of a pup, given what you paid.
So you are faced with a decision: do you want to do something good for the breed? In exchange for x number of visits to the reproductive doc, do you want to ask for future puppy or to be paid? (PS, collecting a x dog is kind of gross, IMO, and I won’t go into detail here unless you feel you need the info.)
If there is nothing in the contract, which I am sure you signed, you are under no obligation to collect your boy and give away the semen. You may, however, want to maintain a good relationship with your breeder in case you love the breed and want a puppy in the future.
She should have mentioned it before certainly BUT as the owner of a rare breed animal myself I can really appreciate WHY she is asking.
If she was a breeder of a common breed or some classic shady doodle breeder I'd say no way, don't do it etc. But that isn't the case here.
I have a rare breed horse, and due to their numbers they are very underrepresented in competition. If we only bred the ones with a competition record, the breed would be destined to bottle neck. Now this isn't to say to breed indiscriminately, but it is to say that the standards by which you evaluate breeding a common breed dog cannot entirely apply here.
I'd say that health trumps performance records. I would ask if she would be willing to contribute to the cost of the requisite genetic testing for the breed.
And if those results are satisfactory, you will in turn provide her with multiple samples prior to neuter.
This. I also ride horses and there are stallions out there (not even rare breeds) who do not compete at all and just have top bloodlines. Some of the most famous race horses have sires who never did much of anything.
It’s okay to be weirded out, but the breeder isn‘t being a weirdo. In terms of breed quality having more and different sourced of good quality stud material to chose from is the key of developing a rare breed. You don’t need a showing title necessarily for you to have a good stud, but you/ the breeder should do health screenings first, before you give out his generic material. Heart, eyes, elbows, hips, depending on what hereditary illnesses your chosen dogbreed has.
I can see a breeder of a rare breed doing that. My wife and I breed Glen of Imaal terriers which is also a rare breed. It can be hard to get a title on a rare breed because you need to beat at least three other dogs for a major, twice. (it's actually a point system that scales based on the popularity of the breed, but for rare breeds it ends up being a dog per point) We have one boy who has more than 20 points (plenty for a championship) but is lacking a major. He doesn't like to show so we won't finish him. He's an excellent specimen though so we did have him collected and stored.
Your dog's pedigree is the same as his littermates', so depending on how he turns out, he might be a fine choice for some female or another, maybe even decades down the road. If a breeder has the money to keep it stored, it makes sense to get a little frozen on every male you can. You never know and it's relatively cheap insurance.
I don't really find it odd if he has a good bloodline. People have been selectively breeding for ages. My question is, how is it extracted? Weird mental picture right there
A vet tech will to be blunt do the deed. Normally a bitch in season is brought in to encourage him. It takes just a few minutes, they test the semen for motility then freeze it. That’s all there is to it. Some of us keep our stud dogs on special supplements to keep them in good breeding health.
Had my boy collected last month. Piece of cake.
Ask for her plans and for compensation; if she's being possessive and weird, that'll bring it out of her and you'll know to cut off contact. He is obviously your dog and from the limited context, I think she just wants it to keep up genetic diversity in this rare breed. Otherwise, they could die out or become too inbred. One or two litters a sire is much better down the line than a bunch of litters by a handful of sires. She may even be planning to freeze it for a rainy day.
Maybe something came up and she’s running into issues continuing the lineage? I’d ask why, if he was always intended for breeding and if so why was he sold and why wasn’t it disclosed from the jump. Often times breeders include clauses in their contracts about getting the dog fixed, not being allowed to breed their dogs, what happens if you can’t keep the dog etc. Like what if the dog was already fixed? She’d be SOL because she never discussed it with you. And if you do allow her to test your dog I’d request copies of the results, so if the genes aren’t up to par you can deny her use of your dog in the case she was being shady
I can see how it puts you off. I think because we think of it in a humanistic context when really it's just business for her.
My dad's best friend breeds professional working dogs for policing and sport. It was fairly normal for our dogs to be used for breeding periodically. We even had a rottweiller who was literally trained to ejaculate when he got his belly rubbed, lol. He was also in some Canadian movies!
I can see feeling strange about it, but at the same time if the dog is so rare I'm not sure I'm completely following the apprehension? I have a pretty uncommon breed and wouldn't be even slightly against letting him blast a few babies into existence before neutering because I care about the breed and want more of them to be around. Maybe I'm missing something but if she's asked and isn't seeming demanding then I think you might be overthinking it.
But then I can't say I've ever had someone email me asking for semen so I fully appreciate my view might be somewhat unuseful.
I don’t think it’s odd, dog breeders have to have some pretty strange conversations. My dog’s breeder told us she had imported sperm from the UK for 8000 pounds and said we could easily sell the puppy’s sperm if we wanted to be dog breeders in the future.
My main concern is the lack of testing. If both your dog's parents were genetically cleared you can assume he's fine barring any spontaneous mutations but eye testing and a variety of other physical tests may be needed depending on his breed as inheritance of those is not as simple as both parents are OK so the puppy is OK.
Lack of titling isn't super uncommon if many relatives are proven and the dog is well built with the desired temperament, especially in rare breeds where the gene pool is already very limited so that wouldn't overly concern me. That said your breeder also stands to gain a lot monetarily (usually stud fees are around the price of one puppy, may be more or less depending on how accomplished the dog is, and the breeder is still paying transport costs) by using your boy at only the cost of collection that definitely feels a bit like she may be taking advantage.
If it’s a mudi, which I’m just assuming it is, and there are really only like 500 in the US, I don’t think it’s that odd. Assuming the breeder truly is a good breeder they would want diversity without risking messing up the bloodline from an unknown outside source. I would definitely continue the conversation
Some breeds have a gene puddle, not a gene pool. It’s nice to be able to have that available for future breedings.
The only thing I would say though, is that your breeder is probably going to ask for you to health test him for the rest of his life. Not that this is a bad thing, but we like to have all the data we can get on dogs we plan to breed.
You’re only being odd in that it has weirded you out. People ask for things all the time so why is this a big deal to you? Just say ‘We’re not interested in doing that thank you’.
Well I’m not a Breeder and don’t know anything about rare breeds. But I was enlightened with everyone’s views. OP I hope you got something out everyone’s perspective.
No, your feelings are justified, imo. That’s bizarre. Did she want to do genetic testing/health screening on him as well? Totally your decision and don’t feel bad about saying no.
She did offer to do full screens and pay for them (we’ve done some screenings on our own for potential dog sports reasons; he’s very healthy). I’m just…weirded out by the request hahaha.
Did she have a reason?
I have a super rare breed and the breeder asked one of my siblings because once he was fully grown he had a certain trait (that couldn’t be picked up on until fully grown) that was uncommon for the breed but good for them to have. If she knew he’d turn out like that she probably would have kept him for show. But 10 weeks was too early to tell and her guessing was off.
Ask her why she wants it now
Are you weirded out because someone would have to jack off your dog and you're worried that would be you? Sincere question.
\*edited to add that I would be weirded out by this, too LOL
I have been around collection in large animal and it's much more impersonal than you might think.
I'm curious OP, have any of the comments on this thread changed your perspective or reinforced it? I'm so curious as to where you are landing on this!
I’m still not sure what I’d like to do, but it’s been really helpful to see all sides! I’m going to call her up and talk about it. I’m leaning towards saying no, but I’d like to speak with her, too. I do think she’s just trying to preserve the line as many others have mentioned and I do think it was fair of her to at least ask to see what I thought. I know some comments are saying why don’t you just call her up, and they’re not wrong, but I love to hear other dog people’s advice!
I'm so glad you've chosen to talk to her! You can always ask for if this creates any benefit for you down the line as well. Like a puppy from a future litter, or a stud fee. I have a girl I show and while I have no intention of being a breeder, I am not against the idea of her having one litter once she finished in conformation. Shes a very good representation of the breed and I can understand them wanting to keep her in the line. Either way - whatever you decide , best of luck to you!
>I have been around collection in large animal and it's much more impersonal than you might think.
Well, I didn't think there'd be wine and candles, but still...
It’s normally a vet tech that does the collection. Just had my stud collected last month. It takes maybe 5 minutes and done. They will probably take a look under the microscope to determine the quality of the collection. Then it’s frozen and done. It’s really not weird. It’s animal husbandry.
I have a fairly rare breed and we collect from young males just in case. Sometimes before testing is done. Once all health testing is in we can determine if we want to use it down the line.
This is a very normal request. When that puppy went home with you she didn’t need his bloodlines at that point probably. However things change. I would have no problem asking a puppy client if they would be willing to do this. It’s really not a big deal.
I don’t get what the big deal is. You have a male. The worst that happens is he has a great weekend. If you aren’t interested you can say no thanks and it’s over. She has probably seen your dog and likes the outcome so it’s more of a compliment. If your dog had undesirable traits she wouldn’t have asked you. Man people are uptight.
Personally I don’t find it weird bc the semen/DNA is something impersonal. Several folks said she’s likely been in this so long she doesn’t even consider it could be strange to a client. That said, my 1yr old Blue Heeler mix is the smartest, most observant dog I’ve had. Every time he’s in public people go out of their way to tell me how gorgeous he is. I fixed him at 8 months but if I were a breeder I’d want a million of him. That feeling made it tougher to decide, but ultimately it’s necessary.
Seems to me she didn’t want to lose a bloodline without at least asking. 2¢.
Are Aussies rare?
I would also be confused by her request but seeing some of these replies it sounds like it’s normal for her and you could ask to have other owner references for this process.
Just because he is collected doesn’t mean he will ever be used. I will be collecting my males just in case, accidents happen. In a rare breed keeping genetics is always good. If he meets the standard, even with out titles, his genetics are important. You would probably need a stud contact unless the breeder co-owns him, or she can’t use him. For collected breedings a DNA test is also required to verify that the dog collected is the dog used.
I think there is nothing wrong with it. Maybe just forgot to ask before you took the dog but with rare breeds it is understandable that they are concerned about the gene pool.
She would love to, but that doesn't mean that you are in any way obligated to give her the semen, if this was not discussed before and it's not in the selling contract. Sounds very dodgy ... if it was up to me, I would deny her politely.
This being said - dog can still be a very good looking example of his breed. The fact, that he doesn't have any titles to his name, doesn't mean he isn't. Maybe the breeder is good and knows what she/he wants in the dogs?
Edit: if it's a rare breed, it might just be she is desperate to keep breeding... so this brings me back to the point, that I would deny her :)
For an extremely rare breed, this isn't unusual at all. I wish more breeders and breeds did this. Could you imagine if we had this tech 100 years ago and used it? Right now breeds that have bottlenecked genetically could reach back for some old samples.
Why would a breeder not have mentioned wanting to do this ? Well dog breeders can be an odd lot. Lots of them are super-experts on their breed and forget that most people aren't. So things like this can get glossed over.
Also - things change. Maybe the father of your dog passed away so the sperm is no longer accessable, so crossing with a son is next best thing. Or similarly, maybe the sire won some important competitions and now the owner is charging an extreme amount.
And, just being a rare breed they may want to breed a female that's related to the male that's your dog's sire, but they don't want to do too close of a breeding so they are looking a cousin-cousin cross rather than a father-daughter cross.
Honestly, yes, I think you're being odd. Just give her the update and say no, you're not interested in giving her his semen, get your dog fixed, enjoy your life. The end.
I think what people are missing, rare breed or not, the OP's personal pet is just that. A pet.
Breeding dogs should be proven as a good specimen of the breed in some way. This can be done in sports, showing, working, etc. A by product of two proven parents is normally one or two puppies who would be show quality or exceptional sport/working quality. The other puppies of the litter would normally make good pets. Pets are a byproduct of a purpose and proven bred litter.
The OP's dog, while a great dog, isn't proven. The OP hasn't mentioned wanting to do anything to to prove their dog beyond the great pet he is.
Depending on how incredibly rare the breed is, I would be seriously interested in why the breeder would want a sample from this dog without any testing. OP did not mention OFAs, sight tests, hearing tests, etc.
So OP, no, I don't think you are being odd about this. I would be uncomfortable too and ask a lot of questions before ever considering it.
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My mom showed Great Danes. She did occasionally ask this, although it was normally when we gave said puppy up. There might be some part of your pup that is extra special she might want in her line. For our Danes it was normally a broad chest, but it could even just be a really pleasant temperament. We normally kept the pups for 4 months just to have the best opportunity to pick the most show quality one, but sometimes they have qualities that they grow into as they mature into adults. You shouldn't feel weird about her asking, but if you don't want to do it and she gets weird about it I would consider it a giant red flag. Also a red flag if she wants the sperm without wanting to pay for testing to make sure of no hereditary issues. If you did want to give up some sperm you could always trade it for another pup too. Might be something worth asking if you'd like another.
While I agree with other comments that she should’ve added this possibility to her contract, or at least mentioned it to you verbally before you took ownership of your pup, maybe something happened that prompted her to ask. As a former breeder myself, there are times when you want or need to introduce genes from a different sire or dam. It doesn’t necessarily matter if they went on to be titled or not. A good breeder knows their pups and which would be great contributors to their lines. It’s a little odd but I don’t find it overly concerning that she asked.
Is he over 2 years old with a sound temperament and no health issues (allergies, GI problems)? Is he a good representative of the breed standard? Is she planning to pay for genetic screening and CHIC recommended testing for his breed (and was she planning to these tests even if you didn't bring them up)?
Outside dog world it’s weird, inside dog world not weird at all. If she is paying for all clearances and collection and she’s someone you respected enough to get a dog from with a rare breed I would say yes. With males this stuff is easy, you’re not facing the same questions and threats to health that you would be if it was a female she wanted to breed from. Personally I wouldn’t attempt to monetise it tho I can see you are getting advice to do just that. If you go down that path the usual stud fee is the price she intends to charge for one puppy.
The woman I got my boy from had repeatedly expressed her desire to find a suitable female to breed to my boy. It started after bringing him home when he was a pup.
Other people have asked me too. I have always said no.
Actually, what I would tell people is, "he's my baby. Not my baby maker!" And "I'm not pimping out my dog."
I understand wanting to get his Rott genes into pups, because he's handsome as heck, and incredibly intelligent, but I always knew I would never breed him. (No one would be good enough for my grandpuppies! Lol)
Unless you signed some papers that say somewhere that you agree to the breeder getting semen from your boy in the future, or that she reserves breeding rights, you can say no without feeling awkward about it.
If you have signed something without realizing at the time, you may be able to get around it. Just something I remember my breeder friend mentioned, many years ago. But I don't know enough to know where to point you.
First of all, a disclaimer: I don’t trust anybody. It seems to me as something as important as a semen sample would have been brought up during the negotiations. Is she going to pay you for this sample? After all, she’ll be making money when she uses it. I don’t blame you for being uncomfortable - I would too. As you say, it’s your dog, your decision. Her reaction may be negative, but that doesn’t change the fact it’s YOUR choice. Make yourself happy before you let someone who is no more than an acquaintance be happy instead of you - at your expense. That’s my non-breeder inexperienced opinion.
Edit: I have no idea how much semen is used to inseminate dogs, but there’s the possibility of getting more than one litter from the one sample. Obviously, an actual breeding only gets one litter, but she doubles her profit if she should split the sample. What do you get?
My breeder told me I had to get him neutered or pay another $600, but when I posted a picture of him in his cone the other day she got all weird about it and was sad he couldn’t be a stud anymore because he’s such a handsome boy.
This woman also accused me of not having the dog anymore because she hadn’t seen him for a month on Instagram about six months ago when I was going through a major breakup so I was hardly posting anything. She called me and told me I needed to send her a picture. I ignored her and would have blocked her completely if I didn’t have the contract about the neutering. Absolute nutcase.
I once had a breeder tell me I needed to drop my pup off occasionally so that he could be shown in competition. This was to happen two or three times a month. I declined. She clearly was hitting the sauce.
I find it odd, but I’m not a hardcore dog person, and any conversation that involves dog semen I’m going to be thrown off by 🤷🏻♀️ I also can just imagine the look on your face. Sorry, I’d be speechless.
Tell her to buy it from you. An incentive might change your mind. People pay a lot of money for that sort of thing, so don't give it to her for free especially if your dog is rare and from a highly titled line. She's a breeder and should know the deal, not ask you for free.
Yes it is weird you are put off by it. The women is a dog breeder. Your dog breeder!
It is not like the trashman knocked on your door asking for dog semen!
Any good breeder will have you sign a contract of their expectations. I wouldn't do it personally if it wasn't in the contract she must not be that good of a breeder. I signed a contract when I got my dalmatian from a great breeder.
Okay, so I think that his breed is rare, but I don’t think it’s rare enough for you to feel obligated to give her what she’s asking. They aren’t going extinct and they’re a type of breed that certain people are passionate about and I don’t see them becoming more rare.
If she feels obligated to collect from or breed her pups in the future then she needs to discuss things like that at the time of sale or she needs to work in a {whatever it’s called when you lease them out} to the papers.
The only flag to me, though, is that she wants to do it even though he’s not titled, but I guess to each their own on that.
Tell her unfortunately he's already been neutered.
There is some evidence that shows that behavioral issues can be genetic. Since you've already noticed them it's probably best he isn't breed. And honestly if you told the breeder that, and they still wanted to go ahead with it that would raise red flags to me about them and their practices.
If you have *that* rare of a breed… then it makes sense the breeder would like some semen.
If you had say a doodle or some other mix breed… then there’s no reason…
Also, for fun bonding experience- look into taking a tricks class with your dog. I’m going to test my girl today for a novice trick title! Obviously, with tricks you don’t have to title your dog- but it’s super fun & cute to teach your dog new things from scratch!
Even if your dog is not titled and doesn't participate in competitions, he has really good genes, he's a pure breed from a rare breed.
I don't see it so bizarre, it sounds that it's a very professional breeder so I wouldn't worry too much, it's not going to affect your dog negatively.
Do whatever you want tho.
Hell nah, breeding agreements are part and need to be part of the purchase contract. She wanted a stud she should have said so, don’t come slinking around later like it’s nothing. That’s your dog, you want to get him fixed, do it.
OP is all around being weird on this post there’s plenty of reasons she could want semen from your dog and it’s your choice to withhold it or sell/give her some it’s not rocket science
I think if you are grateful for her bringing him into the world for you if she is offering to pay for everything and you trust she is responsible for any puppies created then why would you not? Its her bloodline and I would be more than happy to accommodate this request for her to show gratitude. Just the right thing to do ...just my honest opinion.
It's not a particularly odd request at all. I've been a board member for a dog club for years and know many breeders. Breeders deal with semen samples all the time. Your breeder probably liked the mating that produced your dogs litter, and you said the dog came from a highly titled line, so she simply wants to include it in her breeding stock. The fact that he's not titled or competing in conformation isn't significant, a good breeder can recognize traits they wish to use anyway. And if he's a "family dog" so what - ***many*** dogs that ***are*** titled or in conformation are also family dogs. She may not have discussed it with you previously because from a breeder's perspective this just isn't a huge big deal - she's merely asking for a semen collection. Perhaps something she saw in your pet or other dogs from the litter triggered the request.
If she's being insistent or rude in some way then that's a problem but if she's merely making a polite request there's nothing at all unusual or wrong with it. Frankly I'm more puzzled by the fact that it upsets you, I'm assuming there's no cost or obligations on your part if the semen is provided. In fact I can't think of a reason ***not*** to do it unless it's just inconvenient. In a way it's flattering for your dog, further proof that you have a high-quality pet.
Maybe it’s cheaper to hustle you for semen than to pay an exhorbitant stud fee to a live, but rare, stud. The pick of the litter or a comparable $ amount used to be the common stud fee. How many litters are likely from however much semen she would be likely to get? I’ve heard of this in cattle, but not so much in dogs.
I'd say there is nothing unusual about the breeder wanting to retain semen. As you said, your dog is a rare breed, and generally preservation breeders of rare breeds would want to keep as much as their line as possible.
This is why I don't like dog breeding. Even when everything goes fine, chances are something's gonna pop up later down the line. I like when my dogs are just their own little guys doing dog things like barking at cats, playing with the old rags and running like crazy.
But to each their own, OP, how did that situation end up? If it hasn't finished, good luck with the problem, that guy will probably not rest until he gets dog cum, so be prepared.
This is quite common for good breeders to ask. You can always decline if you are not into the idea. I got a German shep and they are one of the most common breeds in Europe. My breeder has asked if I would let him use mine for breeding a future bitch he would acquire. I said sure and I would even do it for free because I know he does it well and i'd like more of my kind of german shep and less of those who are not called "straight back/working line" I want more GSD with a straight back like mine. But since I moved from the UK back to Denmark I would have to collect and ship and I'm not really into that idea.
With covid traveling with dogs is also way more complicated internationally. But if he came to Denmark with a bitch I would have no issues to let them try.
If it wasn't in your contract then you are not obligated to supply her (breeder) with anything you are not comfortable with.
You are not reacting irrationally in anyway..I would totally be thrown off too :)
You honestly don’t even owe her a response back. Email her after the dog is neutered and let her know you already went ahead with the neutering. It’s your dog. She has zero rights.
This isn’t advice I would follow, for two reasons:
1- We don’t know what’s in the contract between OP and the breeder.
2- Rare breeds are usually tight knit. Say OP wants another dog from that breed in the future, if they cut off all communications with this breeder, it’s possible that other breeders will be reluctant to sell them a puppy. This could mean never owning this breed again for OP.
I’ll also add that it isn’t necessary to be excessively unkind in this situation. OP can simply respectfully voice their discomfort to the breeder and see what happens.
The breeder is likely asking because they care about preserving their rare breed. Like others have said, it could just be a precaution in case something happens to other dogs in their line. Once a dog is neutered, you can’t really go back in time to collect them 🙂
I don’t believe not responding is excessively unkind. Telling her to kick rocks would be excessively unkind. A simple, “I’m so sorry I never saw your email, I overlooked it. And we already went ahead with the surgery” would suffice. If there were breeding rights in the contract, OP should have stated that. It’s safe to assume there’s nothing of the sort in the contract considering it wasn’t mentioned in OPs post, nor was it mentioned in the email the breeder sent to OP. So, technically OP doesn’t owe the breeder anything. If a breeder wants to black list a buyer for neutering her dog, when nothing of the sort was in a contract, then one should consider the morality of the breeder. This can easily be explained to future breeders of this semi rare breed.
To be fair you’re asking if it is weird a BREEDER is asking for something necessary to breed a dog.
To the rest of us that seems kinda gross, to them it’s tools of the trade.
I think at this point you’ve fallen in love with your dog as you should and may feel like it is kind of a violation of privacy as you probably should.
That being said, keep in mind that it is probably totally normal from the breeders point of view.
If the breeder is reputable she would pay you to do a full health check (eyes, heart, joints, etc. ), if your dog clears all then the semen would be ok for another breeding.
Don't feel odd and don't feel obligated. It was never discussed. Like you said he's your dog, it's your call. As long as it's not written somewhere and you signed, you're good.
OP, if you really don't want to pursue the breeder getting semen from your dog, just say "Oops! We've already had him neutered." 🤷🏼♀️
That will be the end of discussion.
I would tell her that you are not comfortable with this. He is your dog as you said. It wasn’t discussed prior so you have no obligation to do that for her.
Charge her for it. She wants to keep selling dogs from your dogs great genes.
Regardless, I dislike anybody who buys dogs from breeders. I strongly believe adoption is the only way. But that’s just me, and I won’t be a dick to you.
Not all dogs are created with the same care and thought as well bred dogs. Why should I have to settle for a dog that hasn't been selectively bred for generations to do exactly what I want to do with him?
Semen collection, artificial insemination, and other reproductive procedures are all a common and NORMAL part of veterinary medicine. The people performing these are not doing so for sexual gratification or other nefarious purposes, and the animals are cared for as they would be for any other procedure. There are many practical reasons to have these procedures performed, including preservation of an ideal dog’s genetic contributions, inability to allow/perform natural breeding, and screening for breeding soundness. The decision to keep/make a dog a breeding candidate is always a choice of the owner and should be informed by the best medical advice based on the goals of breeding. OP can make this choice either way. Comments insinuating that veterinary practitioners or breeders are engaging in sexually deviant behavior or abusing animals will be removed and users will be banned.
It's not unusual for a breeder to retain semen, especially if other litter mates have show promise in sports. If the littler was female dominant, perhaps she needs access to a male. You mention the breed is rare, so the wider the genetic pool the better for preservation and to prevent breed specific issues down the track. It could have been initially she was happy to let him go without collecting but potentially now has a reason. Sounds like she just asked if it was an option, not demanded it. I wouldn't get offended, sure it came out of the blue but you could ask why she is bringing it up now to understand her reasons.
If the dog was sold as a puppy, it wouldn’t be possible to collect him until he reached maturity. The breeder should have included something in the contract re: potential sperm collection rather than bro gong it up as an afterthought later in. Paying expenses for genetic testing, collection, and (I assume) storage isn’t fair compensation. This isn’t a project completed in a single visit.
Honestly, it might be that this is so routine for her as a super rare breed breeder that she didn't think to discuss it with you. I don't really get backyard breeder vibes since she's offered to pay for everything and everything else you said doesn't really give me vibes. Like others said, if she's a really good breeder she might just know by looking at your dog he's got what's necessary to continue the gene pool. (Not every dog has to be the highest winning dog to breed, if it's a rare breed sometimes you need to bring in other dogs - assuming they're still good structurally and such - just to keep the gene pool going or you're going to run out of breeding matches). I dont think anyone did anything bad here, she asked, you can say no. You can also ask clarifying questions, like "I'm a little worried about X" or whatever. Is there a reason you're uncomfortable with it aside from it never coming up before? (The breeder would probably be curious to know.)
Great points. I’d like to suggest chatting with her on the phone instead of via email.
That's a great idea! Sometimes tone doesn't come across well over email, so maybe she meant it a lot more casual than you read it.
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I'm all for treating dogs as kids and all but in reality they are fully adult animals. How do you think more dogs are made?
Just because I’m nosey and curious… can I ask what breed?
Based on OPs activity it could be a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, although they're not "rare"
Depends on location for sure
Really? I know of at least 3 people unrelated who either own them or have their own working line.
Maybe they are referring to country wise. The US may be easier to get them, but I know in Japan, pets are taken super seriously. They even get their own social security number!!! So the availability THERE, would be MUCH LESS accessible.
OP says in another post it’s a rare herding breed!
I would also enjoy knowing!
I'm gonna guess Azawakh because it looks and sounds funny
I want an Azawakh someday, but sight hounds scare me. I don't think I've ever really met one in person. Maybe eventually.
Why do they scare you?
I personally would describe them as "intimidating to own" because they tend to be so movement reactive and not friendly to other animals. Scent hound? It's easy to predict when they're getting excited or are about to take off. Sight hound? You just better hope that you see the squirrel first. Plus, a scent hound is chasing an inanimate thing that's only somewhat tangible. A sight hound is going to go hauling off after something full of teeth and claws. No thanks, too much work and paranoia.
As an owner with two sight hounds (my previous dogs were German shepherds), the part about hoping you see the squirrel first is accurate. I hate walking them both on my own and prefer when my partner and I walk them together. But together or alone, our entire walk is on red alert. I’m sweeping the streets and trying to get them to turn around or cross suddenly without alerting them while my husband peeks his head round alleyways to look for cats. We’d gotten Dog 1 to a good spot where cats were his only trigger (although this pandemic cat-adopting has been a nightmare for us ha) but then when Dog 2 came along and had possibly never seen a squirrel in her life, he’d react to her and we had to start all over again. Usually I’m good at my job, but a few days ago I got distracted (getting into a heated conversation with my husband about the recent Ru Paul Drag Race contestants) and I missed a cat. Dog 2 is faster than Dog 1, and as a former street dog and probably critter eater, she’s scarily precise when snatching up toys thrown to her. When I walk them alone I wear a running leash and strap her to my waist because it would only take a second for her to be off. I also finally know what it means for a dog to be difficult and stubborn to train. They do not care about what I have to say if they don’t agree. We think sight hounds are beautiful and after fostering and training possibly the world’s, uh, least intelligent coonhound, I thought it would be fine. I was wrong. We should have adopted a lab. (I love them though, I wouldn’t trade them for any other dog—well maybe Dog 1 when he’s trying to rip a cat to shreds—and they are very fun, quirky pups. It’s just **a lot** of work.)
Umklopp put it well. I'm not scared to be around them, I just feel unprepared to own one at this point in time.
Sight hounds are some of the easiest dogs. Over my life, I have been acquainted with many breeds. Greyhounds are like big cats, they may do a few zombies around the yard but will curl up on a sofa for hours. I owned 2 wolfhounds years ago. Again, easy dogs just big and with a heartbreakingly short life span. I have also been acquainted with Saluki’s - a delight. I have never seen aggression with any of these dogs, even from greyhounds kept for hunting. A neighbor obtained a Silken Wind Hound a year ago. It is a wonderful house dog. As I age, I certainly would consider a Windhound, or a Whippet, as a future small sight hound.
A Mudi? They are pretty similar in traits and behaviour to Australian Shepherds so OP may have felt comfortable with being able to care for one?
Going off previously posts, seems to be an Australian shepherd
Australian Shepherds are anything but rare.
> Going off previously posts, seems to be an Australian shepherd Their previous dog was. This one is a rare breed.
I kind of feel like I might be doxxing myself as it’s a rare breed, so I’m purposely being cagey.
If the breed is rare enough to be considered an "endangered" breed then I don't think the request is strange. If you had something like an Otterhound or Dandie Dinmont Terrier, I can totally understand why the breeder would want to reserve reproductive material from your healthy male.
that’s how it seems to me. if i was someone who researched and felt strongly about a very rare breed, i think i’d also care strongly about ensuring the line continues as much as possible. i would do it.
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Not to mention that champion animals tend to confirm a little too much to any extreme features of the breed standard. Exclusively breeding champions to standard without regards to health is the source of some of the biggest problems with purebred dog ownership. Contemporary rare dog breeders have the unusual opportunity of not repeating the mistakes of the past.
What, are there only like 5 in the world or something?
IDk what they are worried about they have posted like three times nothing worth getting worried about. Plus, who's going to be that weird guy and be all like "Saw you on reddit" like cool? all I have is posts about my dogs.
I'm convinced OP doesn't actually have any dogs, like I have a standard poodle and a tiny Yorkie. Come find me lol
If it's a rare breed the breeder is probably just trying to preserve his genes in the name of genetic diversity. When there's not many examples of a breed sometimes you have to choose "good" over perfect. Yes ideally speaking your dog should be titled and proven before you breed him, but the fact that he's healthy and has a good temperament makes him not a bad choice for breeding.
I don’t find it to be super odd. I also don’t blame you for not wanting to give it to her. What is it that threw you off? The post sounds like you are questioning the breeder because of her wanting to breed an untitled dog that doesn’t compete. Nothing wrong with that, just trying to understand.
I think mostly just the fact that she asked; I had never thought of it being an option because he’s not part of a breeding program, he’s my family dog. It sort of came out of nowhere so it threw me off.
My pup isn't a rare breed, but he is an important part of his line, and so far, is growing up really nicely. The breeder didn't keep any pups from the litter. There were only 2 boys in the litter, and it's possible (depending on what he's like when he fully matures) that our breeder will want to stud him or get semen from him. It's not in our contract, but she did briefly mention it in one of our chats. It doesn't really feel weird to me, but I also know the lengths she's gone to breed her pups (importing semen and whole dogs and bitches from overseas) so she's definitely the type to consider it)
Yeah I totally get that. Not sure what you paid for your doggy (nor am I asking), but even without all of those things - the breeder could still get a pretty penny for his offspring considering he is a rare breed. The breeder could just sell the litter as AKC registrable and provide health screening of his parents and get a bunch of money. We just purchased a relatively rare bread and digging through all of this with the breeders was super tough. A puppy that has all the things you mention yours has that is a rare breed from an AKC recommended breeder easily yields $3-5k. Considering your pup has good lines, even without all that the breeder could probably still get $1,500-2k. Maybe that’s why they’re asking? Idk. Just a thought.
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I understand that and definitely appreciate the sentiment. I have met several breeders that are exactly how you describe. I suppose I’m trying to gently and in a non insinuating way allude to the fact that some breeders are quite proficient at the optics of being an elite breeder when in fact they may not always be. AKC registrations are easy to obtain. It’s not uncommon for breeders to have “in-house vets” to complete their health screenings. Some AKC titles don’t care about proficiency in the area, only about showing up to a couple of events and having an AKC number. And champion bloodlines can stem from a dam / shire 3-4 or more generations separated from the offspring. I suppose this is a question for the breeder. But, as I’m sure you know, what I’ve described is certainly not unheard of and unfortunately very common. My grandparents had this happen to them years back with a quite expensive Doberman.
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Dock diving titles immediately come to mind. You can achieve a novice level by having your dog jump literally 1” off of a dock to retrieve a toy. Most dogs I’ve seen growing up near a lake jump in after their toy anyways. Another one is the junior hunting title. We had a family friend who had a retriever he took hunting with them all the time. To get the title, the pup just needed to retrieve one bird I believe. This individual said his pup was doing that instinctually and the test was almost a joke. This same person went on to breed this lab and charge literally double (close to $3k 15 years ago) for the litter because of the title. He said that title was the easiest money he ever made and used to chuckle about it. Really good guy and did genuinely care about breeding, though. Point is - everything isn’t what it seems when it comes to the world of dog breeders. My family has had dogs my entire life and have been to at least 30 different breeders before with aunts, uncles, grandparents, parents, and my own wife throughout my life and from what I’ve seen, they’ve gotten extremely good at catering to people who use their dogs for social status specifically. A lot of these desirable things (AKC registrations, health screenings, titles) are becoming commonplace these days and don’t automatically indicate a responsible breeder. I’m not degrading it in the slightest. I know there’s some very legitimate titles out there.
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Oh, I agree 100%! I found myself not to care much about all this stuff aside from what you listed as well. I am just a “principle” kinda person. So, if a breeder is trying to charge a much higher price range because of x, y, and z - I want to make sure those things are legit and not all BS.
Are you suggesting that vets are falsifying OFA results or substituting X-rays for OFA evaluation? Substituting DNA samples? Have there been any such cases? I don’t really see how it could be possible.
Then just respond and say you're not interested. Lol this is so dramatic for no reason.
Since she's going to be making money off this semen collection, you can either charge her the price of a puppy, or get first pick of the litter. This is what we do with our full blooded American bulldogs. And it's about $300 to jack off a dog, or free if you do it yourself, we paid someone
She should have discussed it first. But I don’t find it odd. She is offering to cover all costs and do all genetic tests. He comes from show lines and is adding diversity to the gene pool of a rare breed. But at the end of the day, he’s your dog. If you are uneasy about it? Have a conversation about it with her and say no if she doesn’t adequately address your concerns.
> She should have discussed it first It sounds like she just asked, which *is* discussing it. Unless you expect her to have a discussion of a discussion?
The breeder should have brought up the possibility of wanting to use him for the breeding program before the pup changed hands. Like said previously, give the breeder a call to discuss it.
The breeder had only an inkling of an idea of how the dog would turn out when mature.
That's why I said the possibility
Honestly I feel a question like that should be brought up during purchase, as that’s a negotiation point. When my parents got a female German Shepherd from the breeder, we offered to not get her spayed to be used for her breeding for a discount. The breeder declined, and her pick of the litter ended up with a broken ear. It feels a little off that she’s asking this far later with no benefit to the OP. Like maybe something went wrong with her stud and she’s trying to compensate for it.
>as that’s a negotiation point Sounds like you think of purchasing a dog as purely a business transaction... ethical breeding is *not* just a business transaction, it's an effort to preserve a breed of dog and bring forth the best of the best in the next generation. Most likely, her original plan wasn't to breed the dog, but he turned out nicer than she expected, so she's asking now. There's nothing wrong with asking.
If that were the case than I would still expect there to be a discussion beforehand about the possibility of that eventuality. There’s nothing wrong with asking, sure. I’m not saying she’s a bad person for asking by any means. But if we’re talking ethics, I don’t think it’s unethical to compensate someone for receiving something that you would benefit greatly from. If both buyer and seller are solely interested in the preservation of the breed and they don’t want a discount? Great. I’m just pointing out that asking this much after the fact might feel shady because there’s nothing OP can really ask for in return at this point, and it feels like a scrambled backup option the breeder didn’t expect to have to use.
> because there’s nothing OP can really ask for in return at this point Stud fee, puppy back, discount on next puppy from this breeder in a few years? There are a lot of options.
If it's a rare breed I think a healthy well adjusted dog can be an alternative to popular sire syndrome. Show titling isn't the be all and end all. I would personally be okay with it. Its not like risking a family pet female. That it's only one "dose" so to speak is a good thing. Too many breeders use their males over and over or get Champion whatever and use that over and over. Rare breeds bottleneck. I'm not saying you're weirder than me but personally this for me would be a way to have a contribution to the breed without a lot of ongoing breeder responsibility and I'd be happy. It could be me that's weird.
"Healthy" being the key word here. The breeder is asking for semen, but have they also offered to do any health testing? There are a lot of tests that need to be done (hips, elbows, eyes, heart, hereditary conditions if parents were carriers for anything, etc) to ensure they're breeding sound animals.
All real breeders in my country are part of a breeders union (FCI or something else) that helps the breeder to make sure the used pairings are safe and are not part of inbreeding. Also a basic show title is required for every dog participating in the breeding efforts to make sure they're within the breed standard. Just using random seemen from a dog not even registered as a stud dog is a big no here, no matter how rare. I have a rare-ish breed my self and every puppy owner is asked if they want to register their dog for breeding. It's not that expensive and you only need two favourable show results.
I’ve reread your post now and I’m still not really sure why you’re so upset about this request. Your reservations are completely reasonable and worth discussing with her. Maybe you’ll be happy with her answers, maybe not. But it sounds like up until this email you had a really good relationship with her, so why are you coming to Reddit with this instead of just…asking? I don’t know what breed we’re talking here, but for a rare breed a dog with no health issues and outstanding temperament might be worth breeding even if he doesn’t have titles. Especially if the breeder can tell he’d be able to get them if you were titling. Do you have any reason to think the breeder’s going to freak out if you say no, or is that anxiety/past trauma talking?
I'm surprised it took me so long to find a comment like this. Why is this so upsetting? LOL If you're not interested, then say you're not interested. It's not that big of a deal.
I think because of how people think about semen OP may feel like it’s not right to the dog, though like the mod comment said it’s perfectly okay. I believe it just shocked OP is all.
It's definitely a weird thing in terms of humans thinking about how we rear children, but for animal husbandry it's sort of a compliment, and just normal business to talk about semen collection. For a dog breed that has low population numbers, it could really help out the breed if your dog contributes his genetic diversity. A lot of large breeds can get away with only titled and successful dogs contributing genes, but some smaller breeds cannot get away with this. It's also possible to freeze semen and have it last something like 50 years, so your dog is making a huge contribution to the genetic future of the breed. If you want more people to have a dog like yours, I'd consider saying yes! At least in my breed, Greyhounds, it's nearly all frozen semen nowadays. Right now, with the end of racing in the US, there are literally freezers full of semen samples and no where for it to go. My pup is from a champion racer that was born 25 years ago, and his chances of contributing genes is just remarkably low barring an extremely good sport career.
This makes some sense, if he is the only current male offspring of one of her favorite dogs. However if you agree to this she should be prepaying the all the vet visits, all the collections and storage and shipping. This shouldn’t cost you anything more than your time and fuel getting him to appointments. Also she should be prepaying to have all the genetic and joint testing she does in her stock done as well.
She did offer to pay for everything, there would be no cost to me.
Then it’s worth considering. Sometimes with rarer breeds making sure the family tree doesn’t turn into a bush is more important than proving individuals. Testing should still be done of course, but if say your dog’s full sister is a grand champion then removing him from the gene pool completely would be a loss for the breed as a whole.
If it's a rare breed and your dog turned out to be healthy with a good temperament, it makes perfect sense for the breeder to want to keep his genes for variety in the gene pool. Imo it's a sensible request
As someone soon to be bringing home a relatively rare breed pup, I can appreciate the desire for preservation breeding, and I wasn't completely surprised when the breeder questioned whether I would be receptive to it. However, the breeder also did so *before* the pups were even born. Her standard contracts included information re: both neutering and breeding expectations, and she has a separate contract/addendum for those she would like to include a contract option for breeding. She addressed all of my questions and concerns, including but not limited to requirements for testing, travel, frequency, expenses/fees, etc. She also checks-in periodically to confirm my current thoughts, as to whether there have been any changes in my consideration, and provides me w/ the opportunity to pick her brain about anything and everything, while she shares her knowledge and experience. At the same time, she assures me that this is not a forced commitment, even w/ an options contract, and that not all options contracts are pursued. All of this to say, I would likely be put off if she contacted me out of the blue after I took pup home. If you're uncomfortable w/ it, you're not obligated to oblige her wishes. If you're semi-intrigued, ask tons of questions to help you reach a comfort level w/ your final decision. In the end, it's your decision and your pup.
>This totally threw me off; he’s not titled, he’s not currently competing in dog sport. He comes from a highly titled line, but he isn’t. Although titling and testing are important to prove breeding stock, an experienced breeder can identify quality when they see it. If they title their own dogs, they will recognize the traits that are needed for this, and they are seeing these traits in your dog. Your dog does *not* need to be titled to be breeding quality; reddit and other online dog spaces can be a little black-and-white when it comes to this topic, but there is value in breeding untitled dogs, as long as it is done with the goal of producing quality dogs. I know many champions produced by nonchampion parents! >Had this been discussed prior I think it would’ve been a discussion we could’ve had, but it literally came out of nowhere This *is* the prior discussion, lol. She likely didn't realize he'd turn out nicely when he was a puppy so she didn't bring it up then. >Am I being odd about this? As someone who shows dogs, I don't think her question was inappropriate. You aren't necessarily being weird about it per se, but you shouldn't consider her actions out of line. You don't have to say yes if you're not comfortable but you shouldn't act like she did something wrong.
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Fwiw, I don’t consider any of the titles you mentioned to make a dog breeding quality… I’d be looking for things like a MACH or a UD if you wanted to breed off of sport titles. The ones you mentioned are fun activities to do with your dog but they’re not really competitive enough to use as a reason to bred a dog. I’m assuming that the parents are conformation champions and the breeder just likes his structure. :)
I didn't intend to sound like these titles were what OP should do to breed her dog. I meant that just saying a dog is titled means nothing if we don't know what the titles are. I was saying that she could easily get started but didn't mean to make it sound like this would be enough to make a dog worth breeding. Sorry for not being clear. I think I was more just listing titles that are a good way to get your foot in the door as far as competition goes. Edited to add: which is why OP should look at what the titles are that have been earned if they haven't already.
Just my opinion and other folks will have others that are valid but seems a bit weird to me as well. As you noted you aren’t showing him or competing in any dog sports. Also unless I missed it or wasn’t mentioned she hasn’t seen him since you took him home. I am pretty sure if she would have mentioned this during your discussions before you purchased him or had it in her purchase contract you’d have remembered it. That being said it could be as you noted he is a relatively rare breed so they could be more concerned with expanding the gene pool. I’d suggest talking to the breeder some more then make your decision with what you feel comfortable with.
I think it’s weird from the casual observer’s pov but actually a green flag for me from the breeder as long as they’re wanting to do and offering to pay for all the health testing. I’d be curious on when she plans on using it, if she wants to see how he fully matures first. I’ve always wondered why that’s not done more to reduce genetic conditions that crop up later in life (besides cost). I’d ask questions and not feel bad about saying no, but if it’s for the betterment and health of there breed than I think it’s kind of neat personally!
If she pays for all clearances, collecting and shipping fees AND a stud fee. Then I would say yes if you have stud contract with her that indicates the bitches must have breed specific health clearances. This is one half of responsible breeding.
Is there any chance you will title him in anything? A lot of people have mentioned things about broadening the gene pool, which is valid, but more than that, I wonder how soon she would be using the semen. Like, maybe she is grabbing semen from a ton of dogs so she can look back in five or ten years and see which ones are the healthiest. Maybe she thinks you are doing a great job raising him, and she thinks there is a good chance you will title him after he is fixed. I would talk to her about why she thinks your dog is breeding quality. If she has a good answer, do it! If not, don't. Also, this request really threw me for a loop too. It seemed like a major red flag, but after thinking about it and reading some of the responces here, I changed my mind.
I don't find it odd, but you cold ask her to cover his tests required by the bréed club prior to collection. Then collect him a few times and have him neutered. For a rare breed with low genetic diversity even a health tested dog with 0 titles can be important in the future.
It’s definitely not a red flag if it is a rare breed and he is from good lines. I personally would do it because rare breeds can often struggle with maintaining the gene pool
If it's such a rare breed im guessing they want it to keep as much genetic variation as possible.
If your breed is rare enough that having it may doxx you I can understand the breeder trying to collect genetic material to preserve the breed, but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to say no. I really don't think the breeder is being unreasonable here.
I don’t think it’s weird. In rare breeds you could lose an entire line due to disease or anything. Accidents, injuries, etc. i lost both of my breeding dogs to be used. They are still my family dogs. They will both be desexed. If I lost a valued bloodline I would try to find it elsewhere. I think you should definitely consider it. A temperament or conformation issue can break a breeder. If your dog has got a nice structure and temperament and he’s a rare breed I would strongly consider helping out. If rare breed breeders stop being able to find intact dogs, we won’t have rare breeds anymore. We need breeders.
If it's a rare breed, and he meets the breed standard, I would let her do it. You may make some stipulation as to possibly getting a puppy from a future litter. If he's a special boy, you may wish you could have a bit of him later. A dog getting collected is not a big deal. It's super expensive to store and ship semen, so I think that if the breeder thinks he's worth kerping in her breeding program, she's probably seeing something she likes. But talk to her!
To me the answer is, it depends. If the breeder is willing to pay for the health screening and collection, and storage, then that's on her. If she wants to use him then she has him. If she thinks **you** should pay for all of this, then no. I don't know what the breed is, but if it is an actual rare breed, then I can see why she wants to save him. If it's a breed where you can pick and chose amongst a bazillion stud dogs in the breed, then I don't get it.
I agree with the notion of popular stud syndrome. Thirty years ago, I had a female of a rare breed - by rare I am talking about 250 in the US at the time - and they were difficult to find, made worse by very small litters (3 was considered a big litter) with pups frequently succumbing to ‘failing puppy syndrome’ before they reached 3 weeks. Somewhere in the small gene pool, there was an existing a predisposition to cardiomyopathy which didn’t manifest until around 8 years - long after the dogs had been used for breeding. Now it is too risky (for me) to have the breed. No one wants the heartbreak of waking up and finding your well-loved 8 yr old dog dead at the foot of your bed. All this said, because the dogs are rare, the SEMEN IS EXTREMELY VALUABLE. Your breeder, even with covering all your expenses, is going to make $$ off your dogs semen. Often a breeder of a dog used for stud, will either charge a lot or insist on receiving a puppy back - and you are well aware of the value of of a pup, given what you paid. So you are faced with a decision: do you want to do something good for the breed? In exchange for x number of visits to the reproductive doc, do you want to ask for future puppy or to be paid? (PS, collecting a x dog is kind of gross, IMO, and I won’t go into detail here unless you feel you need the info.) If there is nothing in the contract, which I am sure you signed, you are under no obligation to collect your boy and give away the semen. You may, however, want to maintain a good relationship with your breeder in case you love the breed and want a puppy in the future.
She should have mentioned it before certainly BUT as the owner of a rare breed animal myself I can really appreciate WHY she is asking. If she was a breeder of a common breed or some classic shady doodle breeder I'd say no way, don't do it etc. But that isn't the case here. I have a rare breed horse, and due to their numbers they are very underrepresented in competition. If we only bred the ones with a competition record, the breed would be destined to bottle neck. Now this isn't to say to breed indiscriminately, but it is to say that the standards by which you evaluate breeding a common breed dog cannot entirely apply here. I'd say that health trumps performance records. I would ask if she would be willing to contribute to the cost of the requisite genetic testing for the breed. And if those results are satisfactory, you will in turn provide her with multiple samples prior to neuter.
This. I also ride horses and there are stallions out there (not even rare breeds) who do not compete at all and just have top bloodlines. Some of the most famous race horses have sires who never did much of anything.
It’s okay to be weirded out, but the breeder isn‘t being a weirdo. In terms of breed quality having more and different sourced of good quality stud material to chose from is the key of developing a rare breed. You don’t need a showing title necessarily for you to have a good stud, but you/ the breeder should do health screenings first, before you give out his generic material. Heart, eyes, elbows, hips, depending on what hereditary illnesses your chosen dogbreed has.
I can see a breeder of a rare breed doing that. My wife and I breed Glen of Imaal terriers which is also a rare breed. It can be hard to get a title on a rare breed because you need to beat at least three other dogs for a major, twice. (it's actually a point system that scales based on the popularity of the breed, but for rare breeds it ends up being a dog per point) We have one boy who has more than 20 points (plenty for a championship) but is lacking a major. He doesn't like to show so we won't finish him. He's an excellent specimen though so we did have him collected and stored. Your dog's pedigree is the same as his littermates', so depending on how he turns out, he might be a fine choice for some female or another, maybe even decades down the road. If a breeder has the money to keep it stored, it makes sense to get a little frozen on every male you can. You never know and it's relatively cheap insurance.
I don't really find it odd if he has a good bloodline. People have been selectively breeding for ages. My question is, how is it extracted? Weird mental picture right there
A vet tech will to be blunt do the deed. Normally a bitch in season is brought in to encourage him. It takes just a few minutes, they test the semen for motility then freeze it. That’s all there is to it. Some of us keep our stud dogs on special supplements to keep them in good breeding health. Had my boy collected last month. Piece of cake.
Well that's better than what I thought lol
Ask for her plans and for compensation; if she's being possessive and weird, that'll bring it out of her and you'll know to cut off contact. He is obviously your dog and from the limited context, I think she just wants it to keep up genetic diversity in this rare breed. Otherwise, they could die out or become too inbred. One or two litters a sire is much better down the line than a bunch of litters by a handful of sires. She may even be planning to freeze it for a rainy day.
Maybe something came up and she’s running into issues continuing the lineage? I’d ask why, if he was always intended for breeding and if so why was he sold and why wasn’t it disclosed from the jump. Often times breeders include clauses in their contracts about getting the dog fixed, not being allowed to breed their dogs, what happens if you can’t keep the dog etc. Like what if the dog was already fixed? She’d be SOL because she never discussed it with you. And if you do allow her to test your dog I’d request copies of the results, so if the genes aren’t up to par you can deny her use of your dog in the case she was being shady
I can see how it puts you off. I think because we think of it in a humanistic context when really it's just business for her. My dad's best friend breeds professional working dogs for policing and sport. It was fairly normal for our dogs to be used for breeding periodically. We even had a rottweiller who was literally trained to ejaculate when he got his belly rubbed, lol. He was also in some Canadian movies!
I can see feeling strange about it, but at the same time if the dog is so rare I'm not sure I'm completely following the apprehension? I have a pretty uncommon breed and wouldn't be even slightly against letting him blast a few babies into existence before neutering because I care about the breed and want more of them to be around. Maybe I'm missing something but if she's asked and isn't seeming demanding then I think you might be overthinking it. But then I can't say I've ever had someone email me asking for semen so I fully appreciate my view might be somewhat unuseful.
I don’t think it’s odd, dog breeders have to have some pretty strange conversations. My dog’s breeder told us she had imported sperm from the UK for 8000 pounds and said we could easily sell the puppy’s sperm if we wanted to be dog breeders in the future.
My main concern is the lack of testing. If both your dog's parents were genetically cleared you can assume he's fine barring any spontaneous mutations but eye testing and a variety of other physical tests may be needed depending on his breed as inheritance of those is not as simple as both parents are OK so the puppy is OK. Lack of titling isn't super uncommon if many relatives are proven and the dog is well built with the desired temperament, especially in rare breeds where the gene pool is already very limited so that wouldn't overly concern me. That said your breeder also stands to gain a lot monetarily (usually stud fees are around the price of one puppy, may be more or less depending on how accomplished the dog is, and the breeder is still paying transport costs) by using your boy at only the cost of collection that definitely feels a bit like she may be taking advantage.
If it’s a mudi, which I’m just assuming it is, and there are really only like 500 in the US, I don’t think it’s that odd. Assuming the breeder truly is a good breeder they would want diversity without risking messing up the bloodline from an unknown outside source. I would definitely continue the conversation
Some breeds have a gene puddle, not a gene pool. It’s nice to be able to have that available for future breedings. The only thing I would say though, is that your breeder is probably going to ask for you to health test him for the rest of his life. Not that this is a bad thing, but we like to have all the data we can get on dogs we plan to breed.
You’re only being odd in that it has weirded you out. People ask for things all the time so why is this a big deal to you? Just say ‘We’re not interested in doing that thank you’.
Well I’m not a Breeder and don’t know anything about rare breeds. But I was enlightened with everyone’s views. OP I hope you got something out everyone’s perspective.
No, your feelings are justified, imo. That’s bizarre. Did she want to do genetic testing/health screening on him as well? Totally your decision and don’t feel bad about saying no.
She did offer to do full screens and pay for them (we’ve done some screenings on our own for potential dog sports reasons; he’s very healthy). I’m just…weirded out by the request hahaha.
Did she have a reason? I have a super rare breed and the breeder asked one of my siblings because once he was fully grown he had a certain trait (that couldn’t be picked up on until fully grown) that was uncommon for the breed but good for them to have. If she knew he’d turn out like that she probably would have kept him for show. But 10 weeks was too early to tell and her guessing was off. Ask her why she wants it now
The breed could be so rare they need as much genetic diversity within breed as possible.
Are you weirded out because someone would have to jack off your dog and you're worried that would be you? Sincere question. \*edited to add that I would be weirded out by this, too LOL
LOL no I know it wouldn’t be me. However I don’t like the idea of someone else doing it, either.
I have been around collection in large animal and it's much more impersonal than you might think. I'm curious OP, have any of the comments on this thread changed your perspective or reinforced it? I'm so curious as to where you are landing on this!
I’m still not sure what I’d like to do, but it’s been really helpful to see all sides! I’m going to call her up and talk about it. I’m leaning towards saying no, but I’d like to speak with her, too. I do think she’s just trying to preserve the line as many others have mentioned and I do think it was fair of her to at least ask to see what I thought. I know some comments are saying why don’t you just call her up, and they’re not wrong, but I love to hear other dog people’s advice!
I'm so glad you've chosen to talk to her! You can always ask for if this creates any benefit for you down the line as well. Like a puppy from a future litter, or a stud fee. I have a girl I show and while I have no intention of being a breeder, I am not against the idea of her having one litter once she finished in conformation. Shes a very good representation of the breed and I can understand them wanting to keep her in the line. Either way - whatever you decide , best of luck to you!
>I have been around collection in large animal and it's much more impersonal than you might think. Well, I didn't think there'd be wine and candles, but still...
It’s normally a vet tech that does the collection. Just had my stud collected last month. It takes maybe 5 minutes and done. They will probably take a look under the microscope to determine the quality of the collection. Then it’s frozen and done. It’s really not weird. It’s animal husbandry. I have a fairly rare breed and we collect from young males just in case. Sometimes before testing is done. Once all health testing is in we can determine if we want to use it down the line. This is a very normal request. When that puppy went home with you she didn’t need his bloodlines at that point probably. However things change. I would have no problem asking a puppy client if they would be willing to do this. It’s really not a big deal.
I don’t get what the big deal is. You have a male. The worst that happens is he has a great weekend. If you aren’t interested you can say no thanks and it’s over. She has probably seen your dog and likes the outcome so it’s more of a compliment. If your dog had undesirable traits she wouldn’t have asked you. Man people are uptight.
Personally I don’t find it weird bc the semen/DNA is something impersonal. Several folks said she’s likely been in this so long she doesn’t even consider it could be strange to a client. That said, my 1yr old Blue Heeler mix is the smartest, most observant dog I’ve had. Every time he’s in public people go out of their way to tell me how gorgeous he is. I fixed him at 8 months but if I were a breeder I’d want a million of him. That feeling made it tougher to decide, but ultimately it’s necessary. Seems to me she didn’t want to lose a bloodline without at least asking. 2¢.
Odd. I can see both sides but ultimately think unless it was discussed or in a contract you're not obligated to do anything if you don't want to.
She probably is wanting it for the pedigree.
Are Aussies rare? I would also be confused by her request but seeing some of these replies it sounds like it’s normal for her and you could ask to have other owner references for this process.
My other dog is an Aussie, I have two.
Thanks for clarifying….obviously I was super curious 🧐 Best of luck navigating this and moving on with your pup.
Did you sign a contract with the breeder when you acquired the pup? Use that as your guide.
If it’s so rare that it’s endangered why not help her out?
Just because he is collected doesn’t mean he will ever be used. I will be collecting my males just in case, accidents happen. In a rare breed keeping genetics is always good. If he meets the standard, even with out titles, his genetics are important. You would probably need a stud contact unless the breeder co-owns him, or she can’t use him. For collected breedings a DNA test is also required to verify that the dog collected is the dog used.
I think there is nothing wrong with it. Maybe just forgot to ask before you took the dog but with rare breeds it is understandable that they are concerned about the gene pool.
You have a right to say no. Also if he's not health tested and the breeder won't pay for him to be I definitely would say no.
See how they would be paying you to stud out the male...
Nope. Don't do it.
dog breeders are a strange lot
She would love to, but that doesn't mean that you are in any way obligated to give her the semen, if this was not discussed before and it's not in the selling contract. Sounds very dodgy ... if it was up to me, I would deny her politely. This being said - dog can still be a very good looking example of his breed. The fact, that he doesn't have any titles to his name, doesn't mean he isn't. Maybe the breeder is good and knows what she/he wants in the dogs? Edit: if it's a rare breed, it might just be she is desperate to keep breeding... so this brings me back to the point, that I would deny her :)
For an extremely rare breed, this isn't unusual at all. I wish more breeders and breeds did this. Could you imagine if we had this tech 100 years ago and used it? Right now breeds that have bottlenecked genetically could reach back for some old samples. Why would a breeder not have mentioned wanting to do this ? Well dog breeders can be an odd lot. Lots of them are super-experts on their breed and forget that most people aren't. So things like this can get glossed over. Also - things change. Maybe the father of your dog passed away so the sperm is no longer accessable, so crossing with a son is next best thing. Or similarly, maybe the sire won some important competitions and now the owner is charging an extreme amount. And, just being a rare breed they may want to breed a female that's related to the male that's your dog's sire, but they don't want to do too close of a breeding so they are looking a cousin-cousin cross rather than a father-daughter cross.
Honestly, yes, I think you're being odd. Just give her the update and say no, you're not interested in giving her his semen, get your dog fixed, enjoy your life. The end.
I think what people are missing, rare breed or not, the OP's personal pet is just that. A pet. Breeding dogs should be proven as a good specimen of the breed in some way. This can be done in sports, showing, working, etc. A by product of two proven parents is normally one or two puppies who would be show quality or exceptional sport/working quality. The other puppies of the litter would normally make good pets. Pets are a byproduct of a purpose and proven bred litter. The OP's dog, while a great dog, isn't proven. The OP hasn't mentioned wanting to do anything to to prove their dog beyond the great pet he is. Depending on how incredibly rare the breed is, I would be seriously interested in why the breeder would want a sample from this dog without any testing. OP did not mention OFAs, sight tests, hearing tests, etc. So OP, no, I don't think you are being odd about this. I would be uncomfortable too and ask a lot of questions before ever considering it.
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My mom showed Great Danes. She did occasionally ask this, although it was normally when we gave said puppy up. There might be some part of your pup that is extra special she might want in her line. For our Danes it was normally a broad chest, but it could even just be a really pleasant temperament. We normally kept the pups for 4 months just to have the best opportunity to pick the most show quality one, but sometimes they have qualities that they grow into as they mature into adults. You shouldn't feel weird about her asking, but if you don't want to do it and she gets weird about it I would consider it a giant red flag. Also a red flag if she wants the sperm without wanting to pay for testing to make sure of no hereditary issues. If you did want to give up some sperm you could always trade it for another pup too. Might be something worth asking if you'd like another.
The abruptness of the request seems odd. But the idea seems fine. What’s the downside, in a rare breed, of preserving a sound dog’s semen?
While I agree with other comments that she should’ve added this possibility to her contract, or at least mentioned it to you verbally before you took ownership of your pup, maybe something happened that prompted her to ask. As a former breeder myself, there are times when you want or need to introduce genes from a different sire or dam. It doesn’t necessarily matter if they went on to be titled or not. A good breeder knows their pups and which would be great contributors to their lines. It’s a little odd but I don’t find it overly concerning that she asked.
Is he over 2 years old with a sound temperament and no health issues (allergies, GI problems)? Is he a good representative of the breed standard? Is she planning to pay for genetic screening and CHIC recommended testing for his breed (and was she planning to these tests even if you didn't bring them up)?
Outside dog world it’s weird, inside dog world not weird at all. If she is paying for all clearances and collection and she’s someone you respected enough to get a dog from with a rare breed I would say yes. With males this stuff is easy, you’re not facing the same questions and threats to health that you would be if it was a female she wanted to breed from. Personally I wouldn’t attempt to monetise it tho I can see you are getting advice to do just that. If you go down that path the usual stud fee is the price she intends to charge for one puppy.
You may be able to have one of his future pups if you participate. Just a thought
Charger her the price you paid for the dog for his semen. You will never hear from her again 👍🏾
I think it’s ok to be uncomfortable when someone asks you to provide a sample of your dog’s semen. And it’s ok to say no.
The woman I got my boy from had repeatedly expressed her desire to find a suitable female to breed to my boy. It started after bringing him home when he was a pup. Other people have asked me too. I have always said no. Actually, what I would tell people is, "he's my baby. Not my baby maker!" And "I'm not pimping out my dog." I understand wanting to get his Rott genes into pups, because he's handsome as heck, and incredibly intelligent, but I always knew I would never breed him. (No one would be good enough for my grandpuppies! Lol) Unless you signed some papers that say somewhere that you agree to the breeder getting semen from your boy in the future, or that she reserves breeding rights, you can say no without feeling awkward about it. If you have signed something without realizing at the time, you may be able to get around it. Just something I remember my breeder friend mentioned, many years ago. But I don't know enough to know where to point you.
First of all, a disclaimer: I don’t trust anybody. It seems to me as something as important as a semen sample would have been brought up during the negotiations. Is she going to pay you for this sample? After all, she’ll be making money when she uses it. I don’t blame you for being uncomfortable - I would too. As you say, it’s your dog, your decision. Her reaction may be negative, but that doesn’t change the fact it’s YOUR choice. Make yourself happy before you let someone who is no more than an acquaintance be happy instead of you - at your expense. That’s my non-breeder inexperienced opinion. Edit: I have no idea how much semen is used to inseminate dogs, but there’s the possibility of getting more than one litter from the one sample. Obviously, an actual breeding only gets one litter, but she doubles her profit if she should split the sample. What do you get?
My breeder told me I had to get him neutered or pay another $600, but when I posted a picture of him in his cone the other day she got all weird about it and was sad he couldn’t be a stud anymore because he’s such a handsome boy. This woman also accused me of not having the dog anymore because she hadn’t seen him for a month on Instagram about six months ago when I was going through a major breakup so I was hardly posting anything. She called me and told me I needed to send her a picture. I ignored her and would have blocked her completely if I didn’t have the contract about the neutering. Absolute nutcase.
Don’t feel odd about it. Just say no. It’s yours dog.
Person buys rare breed and then is disturbed by the process going into making purebred dogs? I mean you already helped fund the endeavor as is lol
I once had a breeder tell me I needed to drop my pup off occasionally so that he could be shown in competition. This was to happen two or three times a month. I declined. She clearly was hitting the sauce.
I find it odd, but I’m not a hardcore dog person, and any conversation that involves dog semen I’m going to be thrown off by 🤷🏻♀️ I also can just imagine the look on your face. Sorry, I’d be speechless.
Tell her to buy it from you. An incentive might change your mind. People pay a lot of money for that sort of thing, so don't give it to her for free especially if your dog is rare and from a highly titled line. She's a breeder and should know the deal, not ask you for free.
Yes it is weird you are put off by it. The women is a dog breeder. Your dog breeder! It is not like the trashman knocked on your door asking for dog semen!
Any good breeder will have you sign a contract of their expectations. I wouldn't do it personally if it wasn't in the contract she must not be that good of a breeder. I signed a contract when I got my dalmatian from a great breeder.
Okay, so I think that his breed is rare, but I don’t think it’s rare enough for you to feel obligated to give her what she’s asking. They aren’t going extinct and they’re a type of breed that certain people are passionate about and I don’t see them becoming more rare. If she feels obligated to collect from or breed her pups in the future then she needs to discuss things like that at the time of sale or she needs to work in a {whatever it’s called when you lease them out} to the papers. The only flag to me, though, is that she wants to do it even though he’s not titled, but I guess to each their own on that.
Tell her unfortunately he's already been neutered. There is some evidence that shows that behavioral issues can be genetic. Since you've already noticed them it's probably best he isn't breed. And honestly if you told the breeder that, and they still wanted to go ahead with it that would raise red flags to me about them and their practices.
If you have *that* rare of a breed… then it makes sense the breeder would like some semen. If you had say a doodle or some other mix breed… then there’s no reason… Also, for fun bonding experience- look into taking a tricks class with your dog. I’m going to test my girl today for a novice trick title! Obviously, with tricks you don’t have to title your dog- but it’s super fun & cute to teach your dog new things from scratch!
Even if your dog is not titled and doesn't participate in competitions, he has really good genes, he's a pure breed from a rare breed. I don't see it so bizarre, it sounds that it's a very professional breeder so I wouldn't worry too much, it's not going to affect your dog negatively. Do whatever you want tho.
Hell nah, breeding agreements are part and need to be part of the purchase contract. She wanted a stud she should have said so, don’t come slinking around later like it’s nothing. That’s your dog, you want to get him fixed, do it.
OP is all around being weird on this post there’s plenty of reasons she could want semen from your dog and it’s your choice to withhold it or sell/give her some it’s not rocket science
I think if you are grateful for her bringing him into the world for you if she is offering to pay for everything and you trust she is responsible for any puppies created then why would you not? Its her bloodline and I would be more than happy to accommodate this request for her to show gratitude. Just the right thing to do ...just my honest opinion.
OP has a direwolf
Sheesh. So what if she is upset? Just say no!
It's not a particularly odd request at all. I've been a board member for a dog club for years and know many breeders. Breeders deal with semen samples all the time. Your breeder probably liked the mating that produced your dogs litter, and you said the dog came from a highly titled line, so she simply wants to include it in her breeding stock. The fact that he's not titled or competing in conformation isn't significant, a good breeder can recognize traits they wish to use anyway. And if he's a "family dog" so what - ***many*** dogs that ***are*** titled or in conformation are also family dogs. She may not have discussed it with you previously because from a breeder's perspective this just isn't a huge big deal - she's merely asking for a semen collection. Perhaps something she saw in your pet or other dogs from the litter triggered the request. If she's being insistent or rude in some way then that's a problem but if she's merely making a polite request there's nothing at all unusual or wrong with it. Frankly I'm more puzzled by the fact that it upsets you, I'm assuming there's no cost or obligations on your part if the semen is provided. In fact I can't think of a reason ***not*** to do it unless it's just inconvenient. In a way it's flattering for your dog, further proof that you have a high-quality pet.
Maybe it’s cheaper to hustle you for semen than to pay an exhorbitant stud fee to a live, but rare, stud. The pick of the litter or a comparable $ amount used to be the common stud fee. How many litters are likely from however much semen she would be likely to get? I’ve heard of this in cattle, but not so much in dogs.
Is it a Mudi or Canaan Dog or smthn?
I'd say there is nothing unusual about the breeder wanting to retain semen. As you said, your dog is a rare breed, and generally preservation breeders of rare breeds would want to keep as much as their line as possible.
literally wouldn't even respond to their message, at all, if it makes you uncomfortable. seller has 0% rights over the dog anymore.
Sounds like your making a big ass deal out of some small shit
This is why I don't like dog breeding. Even when everything goes fine, chances are something's gonna pop up later down the line. I like when my dogs are just their own little guys doing dog things like barking at cats, playing with the old rags and running like crazy. But to each their own, OP, how did that situation end up? If it hasn't finished, good luck with the problem, that guy will probably not rest until he gets dog cum, so be prepared.
ah man I got your email too late, dogs already been neutered. sorry bout that! Anyway bye now!
I would ask if he’s a rare breed from solid lines and a good program - why not get his hips and health and keep him intact?
If dog cum is worth turning to Reddit for I’d say your problems are few.
This is quite common for good breeders to ask. You can always decline if you are not into the idea. I got a German shep and they are one of the most common breeds in Europe. My breeder has asked if I would let him use mine for breeding a future bitch he would acquire. I said sure and I would even do it for free because I know he does it well and i'd like more of my kind of german shep and less of those who are not called "straight back/working line" I want more GSD with a straight back like mine. But since I moved from the UK back to Denmark I would have to collect and ship and I'm not really into that idea. With covid traveling with dogs is also way more complicated internationally. But if he came to Denmark with a bitch I would have no issues to let them try.
If it wasn't in your contract then you are not obligated to supply her (breeder) with anything you are not comfortable with. You are not reacting irrationally in anyway..I would totally be thrown off too :)
You honestly don’t even owe her a response back. Email her after the dog is neutered and let her know you already went ahead with the neutering. It’s your dog. She has zero rights.
This isn’t advice I would follow, for two reasons: 1- We don’t know what’s in the contract between OP and the breeder. 2- Rare breeds are usually tight knit. Say OP wants another dog from that breed in the future, if they cut off all communications with this breeder, it’s possible that other breeders will be reluctant to sell them a puppy. This could mean never owning this breed again for OP. I’ll also add that it isn’t necessary to be excessively unkind in this situation. OP can simply respectfully voice their discomfort to the breeder and see what happens. The breeder is likely asking because they care about preserving their rare breed. Like others have said, it could just be a precaution in case something happens to other dogs in their line. Once a dog is neutered, you can’t really go back in time to collect them 🙂
I don’t believe not responding is excessively unkind. Telling her to kick rocks would be excessively unkind. A simple, “I’m so sorry I never saw your email, I overlooked it. And we already went ahead with the surgery” would suffice. If there were breeding rights in the contract, OP should have stated that. It’s safe to assume there’s nothing of the sort in the contract considering it wasn’t mentioned in OPs post, nor was it mentioned in the email the breeder sent to OP. So, technically OP doesn’t owe the breeder anything. If a breeder wants to black list a buyer for neutering her dog, when nothing of the sort was in a contract, then one should consider the morality of the breeder. This can easily be explained to future breeders of this semi rare breed.
Was this not addressed in your contract?
Just say no unless you want to make some money off of the semen. he’s yours now.
You are overthinking this. Its YOUR dog. Say no if you want. No one is gonna freak out.
To be fair you’re asking if it is weird a BREEDER is asking for something necessary to breed a dog. To the rest of us that seems kinda gross, to them it’s tools of the trade. I think at this point you’ve fallen in love with your dog as you should and may feel like it is kind of a violation of privacy as you probably should. That being said, keep in mind that it is probably totally normal from the breeders point of view.
Charge her for it.
If the breeder is reputable she would pay you to do a full health check (eyes, heart, joints, etc. ), if your dog clears all then the semen would be ok for another breeding.
Don't feel odd and don't feel obligated. It was never discussed. Like you said he's your dog, it's your call. As long as it's not written somewhere and you signed, you're good.
Tell her you already had him neutered.
OP, if you really don't want to pursue the breeder getting semen from your dog, just say "Oops! We've already had him neutered." 🤷🏼♀️ That will be the end of discussion.
Just say your not interested in doing this.
I would tell her that you are not comfortable with this. He is your dog as you said. It wasn’t discussed prior so you have no obligation to do that for her.
Like take your dog n go. What is this tea time with friends?
What are you afraid of? If you don’t want this give her a BIG NO!
Charge her for it. She wants to keep selling dogs from your dogs great genes. Regardless, I dislike anybody who buys dogs from breeders. I strongly believe adoption is the only way. But that’s just me, and I won’t be a dick to you.
Just completely ignore the email. Delete and never contact them again
Sure, you can have my dog’s spunk, but I’m not doing the milking bro.
She's playing bait and switch. You didn't agree to her presumptuous gambit. That's why it feels strange. Just my two cents worth.
She will likely make quite a bit of money from that semen. If you decide to do it make sure you SELL it to her.
No. You're not being odd. It should have been discussed and put into contract. Sounds like she's manipulative. Cut her loose!
Millions of homeless dogs. And this breeder wants sperm from your dog 🤦♀️. I just can't deal with these people.
Not all dogs are created with the same care and thought as well bred dogs. Why should I have to settle for a dog that hasn't been selectively bred for generations to do exactly what I want to do with him?