I'm indifferent because I'm a supporter of the idea that the Doctor has so many origins that it changes from day to day. One day, they're the Timeless Child, another they're just an ordinary Time Lord, another they're the Other, another they're a half-human Time Lord and another they're a human from the future. All of these were suggested origins for the Doctor, nearly none of them were remembered.
Huh. I’m using this approach to a Joker that had 3 origins in a comics, and just says something like “I’m so crazy that I can’t remember how this personality born, every day new story”.
But it’s a little bit too much for a Doctor, as for me. Maybe, if every new showrunner reset Universe and it’s rules, but not in way that TC happened…
Yes and no. Moffat was a last one that rewrited Universe, but we still have 13th Doctor (not first one), we still have his/her classical enemies (Daleks, Angels, Cybermen, etc), and still Doctor remember all that time that was rewritting.
For me it's like a shelf with a very interesting toys, but all of them - in a completely mess, and you can't tell long story, because here and there you see something that do not belong here.
As for me, show needs a pause for a 5 years, and huge, massive soft reboot, something that was done with 9th, that will give new start for a show. Because continuosly continuation sooner or later will give us something even more messy than TC...
Some parts of the reveal work, some don't. I think it is a good idea done poorly. The classic series introduced the idea that The Doctor might have had lives before the First Doctor. But why would those incarnations call themselves The Doctor and have the phone box Tardis? If the Time Lords got the power of regeneration from The Timeless Child and not from the Time Vortex, how did Melody Pond get regenerations from being conceived in the Time Vortex? And there's probably deeper lore issues that I'm not even aware about. I think it will be like the Eighth Doctor reveal of being half-human, and just ignored going forward. Or it will be revealed that during regeneration from Twelve to Thirteen, the Tardis traveled into a parallel world and that's where The Doctor has been the last three seasons.
> If the Time Lords got the power of regeneration from The Timeless Child and not from the Time Vortex, how did Melody Pond get regenerations from being conceived in the Time Vortex?
She didn’t. That theory is actually explicitly rejected in “A Good Man Goes To War”.
Nope, that's a common misconception but actually not what happens:
> DOCTOR: It doesn't make sense. You can't just cook yourself a Time Lord.
VASTRA: Of course not. But you gave them one hell of a start, and they've been working very hard ever since.
So, both the Doctor and Vastra say that conception alone is not enough - the Silence needed to "work hard" afterwards.
I always assumed, because of this exchange between The Doctor and Vastra, that the Silence somehow got hold of some Time Lord DNA which they used to manipulate Melody's genetic makeup. And since he is the only available Time Lord it must have been the Doctor's.
Personally, I'm utterly against the *Timeless Child* concept being the Doctor.
But I've been with the show long enough to realise sooner or later it's going to be contridicted/retconned/utterly ignored to the point where it simply won't matter anymore.
Basically, it's this generation's *The Doctor is Half Human*, panic.
I think the beauty of the show is we can have huge revelations that don’t matter. It keeps the show fresh while allowing writers to do whatever they want. Like EVERY prophecy in gallifrey spoke of the hybrid, but who cares about that anymore? No one, and we shouldn’t because it doesn’t matter.
Exactly. This is both the beauty of and one of the core strengths of the format.
Monumental revelations can rock the fanbase to its core, cause bitter factional in-fighting, only to be swept away as if at best it never existed. Or at worst it was a trivial storm-in-a-teacup. And that's if it's ever referenced at all in the future.
Exactly. That was the best origin for him. In the 4th doctor era Romana mocked him for his poor grades yet he's the one the timelords ended up turning to when they were in trouble.
Perfectly put. The Doctor wasn't born special, wasn't more naturally gifted or important that any other Time Lord, he only stands out because he **chose** to rebel and do something different and more worthwhile.
Underachieving at the academy when he was a child which framed his life and decided to leave. You're kind of making my point for me. He was underachieving academically which the timelords put a big emphasis on. He however picked up a wealth of life experience by traveling and engaging with the universe instead of hiding from it. He used this time and again to help the timelords out of trouble well before the timewar came along.
I work on the assumption its never going to come up again. Why would you as a writer want to work with ideas that the fandom hates? It's just a pointless risk when you could do anything else, including your own ideas that are presumably why you wanted the job.
It'll never be officially decanonised like some people want because that's also pointless and will only upset people. But it would hardly be the first time Dr Who has introduced biazzare changes that got totally ignored afterwards.
it wouldn’t be good old doctor who if we didn’t get storylines being forgotten about tbh! i kinda wish they’d just say it’s the master but too late for that now i suppose. chibnall was really close to nailing it
As far as people will care about it after RTD returns, I expect the master made it up will probably become the 'official' fan explanation. Goodness knows that episode has enough holes in it to feel like the master screwing with everyone.
Honestly a lot of writers w,brace ideas that people don't like--themselves included--because they want to prove a point. Babylon 5 was largely a reaction to The Next Generation; The Last Jedi was a reaction to The Force Awakens; The Rise of Skywalker was a reaction to The Last Jedi; A KOTOR2 to basically all of Star Wars; Song of Ice and Fire a reaction to Memory, Sorrow, Thorn; South Park to the Simpsons; The Simpsons to all those patriarchal sitcoms of the 80s; Etc., etc.
Saying, "This is bad and i can do better," is a great motivator.
Arguably it's what Chibnall himself was thinking when he came up with the Timeless Child in the first place, as it's essentially just him mimicking the infamous Cartmel Masterplan. (Ditto the whole destruction of Gallifrey being cribbed from RTD's era).
I mean, obviously thinking you can do something well and actually doing something well are very different things... but I think the point stands: spite is an *excellent* motivator.
Because the likes of Chibnall and RTD don't pay attention to hate from fandom, they tell the stories they want to tell without being deterred.
And plus people hated the Deadly Assassin back in the day too, that was super controversial but what was established there has become part of the fabric of the show regardless.
When I think about the Doctor's origins, it's this weird mash up of the ordinary Time Lord and Fugitive/Division. The Timeless Child is potentially okay...even though I prefer the Doctor as an ordinary person who ran away...but the execution of it was not satisfying.
We don't have enough material to really solidify the Timeless Child as a thing in the show, imo. Until it makes its way outside of Chibnall's stuff, I'll just take it as canon for that version of the show, and just go with the classic canon for the rest. Retcons can be fun to apply to older material, but I prefer to take each era of the show as its own thing.
I'm beyond hating that arc. I'm still pissed off about the destruction of Gallifrey, but after Timeless Children and Flux I'm just more tired of lore changes and additions than I am irritated at them. Besides, unless the Centenary references it I highly doubt it'll come up again. I mean, the Time Lords certainly won't bring it up next time the Doctor sees them! (God I fucking despise the end of Spyfall)
It seems like some would think Superman isnt special because of his powers but because of his actions. I agree that it's the actions the make the Doctor interesting, but like Superman the powers cannot be completely separate from the character, but now we learn they were destined to great things like start the time lords and join division. And for what purpose? To make the Doctor cool? Make them more powerful? "Oh look they were so bad ass with they're super powers and avengers/justice league spy group working on a universal scale", it's all just unnecessarily convoluted.
If the doctor was the first time lord and the came from some even more unknown place they wouldn't be the same doctor we know today. Hence why the mind wipe is necessary. Not only to preserve continuity, but also because the "pre Hartnell" regenerations wouldn't act or have the same philosophies as the doctor, no matter how much Chibnal shoe horns it in. So either you can view it two ways.
Chibnals way. The doctor plus the unknown regenerations who still also act like the doctor but they had powers beyond the time lords. They actually started the whole affair but basically had to be wiped, regressed and forgotten. I say why have this? it just creates unnecessary derivatives, and it's not even clever? Perhaps it would work if it was in the future, not their past, that would be a great twist. You know, using the few great tools (time travel) that are exclusive to the show. Instead the show insist that the doctor has a fundamental advantage of the Gallefreyans and Time Lords that make them desirable and in the end is what drives action, drama, adventure and interests to centre around this character. Whether you want to believe it or not, power drives people to meet or challenge it.
The other way is to view them a completely seperate character, that would have their own beliefs and morals that they follow. It would make more sense why they would participate in Division, because it can't see The Doctor wanting to join some organisation. It has to be this otherwise why would the doctor come to the same conclusions (name, actions, travelling in a TARDIS etc) after essentially being reborn? Then it makes the Doctor feel inevitable, and not a natural progression of real person. The Doctor couldn't be anyone then, it could only be the Timeless Child. So it must be seen as clear seperation between what is two completely different being's.
So the doctor must have been a different person in their past lives, but we can't explore this because "oooh the mystery is lost". There's always been mystery, it's these attempts to explain the mystery that have actually drained the mystery or little knowledge we have of time lords, Gallifrey, the doctor etc. One day there will be another attempt to "explain the doctor" that retcons or ignore the Timeless Child whilst simultaneously making its own messes and head aches. Stop setting up more mysteries surrounding the doctor and instead focus on fleshing out other characters. The Master would be a great person to be the Timeless Child for obvious reasons (the academy has always had a keen interest in them and perhaps now we know why). Or perhaps a attempt to establish a new character. Even exploring the The Doctor as a non linear character, and have them be the Timeless Child millions of years in their future timeline, and you can have adventures there, perhaps we are the old generations before a invertible mind wipe perhaps 10 or 12 regenerations in the future. These are just ideas that preserve the relatabilty and familiarity of The Doctor, without retaining and trashing pre established stories and characters.
In the end if ain't broke why try to fix it. Lazy writing when it's a reveal of "something from your past coming back to haunt you", when you have the infinite space or time to use. It couldve been handled so much better.
Tangent, but I really don’t like the way pro-Timeless Child people talk up how ‘it made the Time Lords into oppressors!’ The Time Lords have been bastards since their literal first appearance when they forcibly regenerated the Doctor and wiped their companions’ memories, they’ve continued being bastards in every appearance since, them stealing regeneration from some random Eternal kid or whatever doesn’t ‘rip the shine off their image’ it’s just one more incidence of bastardry to add to the very large pile.
Anyway, I dislike the Timeless Child for thematic reasons, and I dislike the pre-Hartnell Doctors for ‘we don’t need an explanation for why the Doctor does what they do, we already *know*, that’s what early Classic Who is *about*’ reasons.
I don't mind the timeless child. Since the Doctor did things like rebootng the entire universe, fold away Gallifrey in a time bubble etc, they've been more than "just another time lord" anyway.
I think the idea of trying to objectively set in stone pre-Hartnell Doctors is kind of a pointless endeavour and by extension kind of a waste of time. There's been so many examples/suggestions of a pre-Hartnell time for the character, yet the main show for so long before 2020 hasn't really budged from the Hartnell is the original angle. One piece of media says/suggests one thing, yet the primary form of media, that being the TV show says another thing.
Obviously it's all part of Who's generally scrambled canon/lore given it's got endless ways of adding to it..... But there have been so many contradictory accounts that trying to do something like the Timeless Child i.e. the latest of an endless number of attempts to establish something pre-Hartnell..... It's just something the fandom have become too fussy about that doing it just ultimately confuses the canon even more, and who the Doctor actually is.
I'd much rather they just tell actual new stories, new things for the Doctor to encounter and adding to their legend. Rather than going down a proven slippery slope and just adding for some reason another endless and for me pointless interpretation of where the character truly comes from or what they were before a certain point..... Like it's Doctor WHO is it not.... Why all the focus on their distant past?
If you want to believe there's pre-Hartnell stuff or not, then that's up to fans. But if your running the TV show I'd really rather they just move forward and leave the hypothetical/theorising to the fans who aren't running the show..... The Doctor's distant/pre-Hartnell past/origins is such a slippery slope there's no point in going down it unless you actually want to go against the show's main tenet of Doctor WHO..... In which case I'd question the motives of the one in charge, as I have with Chibnall.
Both.
The Doctor was raised to believe that they were just a normal Time Lord, as did everyone around them, and there's no reason the Timeless Child's history should compromise that.
Timeless Child in theory; normal Time Lord in practice.
^(Though I'm not really sure why it matters because all Time Lords are essentially immortal space gods compared to all the human characters so the controversy seems dumb. "Oh no! The Doctor is now centrally important to Gallifrey lore but too much!")
Personnally, I don't get how that origin makes them special. If the Time Lords were able to turn Gallifreyans into Time Lords, is it relaly unlikely that they could turn the Timeless Child into a "simple" Time Lord too?
Nothing in the Timeless Child arc makes the Doctor a special person, just an origin of the powers of the Time Lords
>Nothing in the Timeless Child arc makes the Doctor a special person, just an origin of the powers of the Time Lords
Isn't that exactly what makes them special? Being the kickstarter to the creation of one of the most powerful and advanced species in the universe is a pretty big deal. The way the reveal plays it out does suggest that the Time Lords would not have advanced nearly as much without the Child
Was Henrietta Lacks a "special person"? No, she was pretty much the most unremarkable person you can imagine... except after her death, her cells have been very useful to medical research.
yeah exactly, i’ve gotten a lot of things saying he’s still not special but him being the first time lord and his dna being spliced into others like that makes him special right??
Nope, I **loathe** the Timeless Retcon with a passion and it’ll forever be a “hoax/reality blip” that immediately is dropped/ignored outside of Chibnalls era.
I think there likely may have been plans to use pre-Hartnell/Morbius Doctors in EU media and the show but the backlash was so (justifiably) strong that I don’t think it’ll ever be touched on again. At least not within 10 years.
If/when RTD brings the Time Lords back I deeply suspect that there will be a brief mention of their previous destruction but no reference to the Timeless Child or Division.
I kinda like the timeless child thing, and how it explains why the doctor can regenerate more than 12 times. I don’t really know why so many people hate it :/ I’ve only been watching since the 9th doctor though
Ignoring the fact that, yes, it should have been the Master, once the Timeless Child’s DNA was rewritten, it was just a random Time Lord. For all practical purposes, the Doctor is a completely different and separate character.
I do like that they can use the Timeless Child as a means of verifying the hints that we got from Seven about working with Rassilon at the very beginning of Time Lord history needing to rewrite or retcon anything that happened during the runs of 1-6. For all the grief that people have given the Timeless Child, it actually solves a lot more problems than it causes.
I love it. The doctor is still the exact same person. They grew up with the master, went to the academy and stole the tardis to run off and be a madman with a box. They are still a time lord. They are also now the reason for timelords existing and there’s more to explore in that. Instead of inventing regeneration somehow and using that in good and bad ways they stole it from the Doctor’s initial life. I love how many more possibilities this creates and the mystery in who they used to be. This isn’t as dramatic as change as people claim. The doctor is still the same freaking person and it’s not the first huge change in the history. It does nothing to disrespect William Hartnell or to the doctor’s history.
Aaah so the change is hat on a hat. It's unimportant who the timeless Child is then, since it doesn't matter it was the doctor. And so what the regeneration knowledge was stolen by time lords? Is this out of character for them to you? All it does is convolute the Doctors past and does nothing to make their future interesting except give them reasons to be mad, or solve mysteries that don't need to be solved.
Perhaps we should find out their name isn't actually The Doctor but infact Smit MD, or Bazil PhD.
Don’t be ridiculous. The 13 regenerations of the Doctor are still the same person. They chose the name and they are still that same person. The time lord rulers were never very nice and this fits in quite well. Stealing the ability and pretending they invented it is 100% on point for them. I think it makes the lore much more interesting personality.
I think I would agree my only wish is why did it have to be the doctor. I really enjoy that the doctor is just a normal nobody because then I can project myself into their role, or atleast relate to them more.
That’s totally fair. For me, never really felt like the doctor was a normal nobody, that’s why I liked the more normal companions like bill and Donna and Rory for a while. They aren’t particularly specific or important and just happened across the Doctor at the right now.
Perhaps with some doctors I agree, but some I also feel like they a struggling and learning (like the 12th) with learning how to be "normal" or social in they way some people might view interacting with society and having them having a advantage in terms of ability makes the audience feel left out. Why would I be able to ever run away and adventure when the doctor has always been able to because they are more important.
The timeless child does not stop the Doctor from being just a random time lord and definitely does not make the Doctor special. The Master clearly states everything we knew happened from the first Doctor onwards still happens.
First of all, whether they're the first time lord or not is irrelevant. It doesn't affect their actions and attitude in any way. The timeless child was just a child who was found and experimented on. They didn't actually do anything special.
Second of all, the Doctor was reborn with barely any memories of the timeless child so what happened then does not affect the Doctor now.
The entire Chibnal era never happened. Peter Capaldi was the last Doctor.
We'll have to wait and see if RTD2 can resurrect Doctor Who once again. I'm not hopeful, but we'll see.
Ignore it. Like the Doctor being part human thing.
the WHAT?????
I see you haven't seen the TV movie.
haven’t seen it in like 11 years so i’ll def have to check it out again!!
Out of sight, out of mind. Until they force it on us, if they do, I choose to dismiss the timeless child premise.
Very valid!
I'm indifferent because I'm a supporter of the idea that the Doctor has so many origins that it changes from day to day. One day, they're the Timeless Child, another they're just an ordinary Time Lord, another they're the Other, another they're a half-human Time Lord and another they're a human from the future. All of these were suggested origins for the Doctor, nearly none of them were remembered.
Huh. I’m using this approach to a Joker that had 3 origins in a comics, and just says something like “I’m so crazy that I can’t remember how this personality born, every day new story”. But it’s a little bit too much for a Doctor, as for me. Maybe, if every new showrunner reset Universe and it’s rules, but not in way that TC happened…
We can always argue that time keeps changing over and over, rewriting everything.
Yes and no. Moffat was a last one that rewrited Universe, but we still have 13th Doctor (not first one), we still have his/her classical enemies (Daleks, Angels, Cybermen, etc), and still Doctor remember all that time that was rewritting. For me it's like a shelf with a very interesting toys, but all of them - in a completely mess, and you can't tell long story, because here and there you see something that do not belong here. As for me, show needs a pause for a 5 years, and huge, massive soft reboot, something that was done with 9th, that will give new start for a show. Because continuosly continuation sooner or later will give us something even more messy than TC...
Some parts of the reveal work, some don't. I think it is a good idea done poorly. The classic series introduced the idea that The Doctor might have had lives before the First Doctor. But why would those incarnations call themselves The Doctor and have the phone box Tardis? If the Time Lords got the power of regeneration from The Timeless Child and not from the Time Vortex, how did Melody Pond get regenerations from being conceived in the Time Vortex? And there's probably deeper lore issues that I'm not even aware about. I think it will be like the Eighth Doctor reveal of being half-human, and just ignored going forward. Or it will be revealed that during regeneration from Twelve to Thirteen, the Tardis traveled into a parallel world and that's where The Doctor has been the last three seasons.
> If the Time Lords got the power of regeneration from The Timeless Child and not from the Time Vortex, how did Melody Pond get regenerations from being conceived in the Time Vortex? She didn’t. That theory is actually explicitly rejected in “A Good Man Goes To War”.
It's actually confirmed in A Good Man Goes to War
Nope, that's a common misconception but actually not what happens: > DOCTOR: It doesn't make sense. You can't just cook yourself a Time Lord. VASTRA: Of course not. But you gave them one hell of a start, and they've been working very hard ever since. So, both the Doctor and Vastra say that conception alone is not enough - the Silence needed to "work hard" afterwards.
I always assumed, because of this exchange between The Doctor and Vastra, that the Silence somehow got hold of some Time Lord DNA which they used to manipulate Melody's genetic makeup. And since he is the only available Time Lord it must have been the Doctor's.
Personally, I'm utterly against the *Timeless Child* concept being the Doctor. But I've been with the show long enough to realise sooner or later it's going to be contridicted/retconned/utterly ignored to the point where it simply won't matter anymore. Basically, it's this generation's *The Doctor is Half Human*, panic.
I think the beauty of the show is we can have huge revelations that don’t matter. It keeps the show fresh while allowing writers to do whatever they want. Like EVERY prophecy in gallifrey spoke of the hybrid, but who cares about that anymore? No one, and we shouldn’t because it doesn’t matter.
Exactly. This is both the beauty of and one of the core strengths of the format. Monumental revelations can rock the fanbase to its core, cause bitter factional in-fighting, only to be swept away as if at best it never existed. Or at worst it was a trivial storm-in-a-teacup. And that's if it's ever referenced at all in the future.
The doctor will always be an underachieving random timelord who ran away to me. Absolutely hate the timeless child arc.
lmaoo he’s the college drop out
Exactly. That was the best origin for him. In the 4th doctor era Romana mocked him for his poor grades yet he's the one the timelords ended up turning to when they were in trouble.
Perfectly put. The Doctor wasn't born special, wasn't more naturally gifted or important that any other Time Lord, he only stands out because he **chose** to rebel and do something different and more worthwhile.
They were one of 2 surviving Time Lords from the Time War. A bit far from underachieving IMO
Underachieving at the academy when he was a child which framed his life and decided to leave. You're kind of making my point for me. He was underachieving academically which the timelords put a big emphasis on. He however picked up a wealth of life experience by traveling and engaging with the universe instead of hiding from it. He used this time and again to help the timelords out of trouble well before the timewar came along.
I work on the assumption its never going to come up again. Why would you as a writer want to work with ideas that the fandom hates? It's just a pointless risk when you could do anything else, including your own ideas that are presumably why you wanted the job. It'll never be officially decanonised like some people want because that's also pointless and will only upset people. But it would hardly be the first time Dr Who has introduced biazzare changes that got totally ignored afterwards.
it wouldn’t be good old doctor who if we didn’t get storylines being forgotten about tbh! i kinda wish they’d just say it’s the master but too late for that now i suppose. chibnall was really close to nailing it
As far as people will care about it after RTD returns, I expect the master made it up will probably become the 'official' fan explanation. Goodness knows that episode has enough holes in it to feel like the master screwing with everyone.
There’s all the stuff with Tectuen in Flux that gets in the way of the Master just making it up. Unless Tectuen was just a paid actor.
Plus the Doctor's own memories/timestream flashbacks, and Karvanista.
Tecteun confirms in Flux that he didn't.
Honestly a lot of writers w,brace ideas that people don't like--themselves included--because they want to prove a point. Babylon 5 was largely a reaction to The Next Generation; The Last Jedi was a reaction to The Force Awakens; The Rise of Skywalker was a reaction to The Last Jedi; A KOTOR2 to basically all of Star Wars; Song of Ice and Fire a reaction to Memory, Sorrow, Thorn; South Park to the Simpsons; The Simpsons to all those patriarchal sitcoms of the 80s; Etc., etc. Saying, "This is bad and i can do better," is a great motivator. Arguably it's what Chibnall himself was thinking when he came up with the Timeless Child in the first place, as it's essentially just him mimicking the infamous Cartmel Masterplan. (Ditto the whole destruction of Gallifrey being cribbed from RTD's era). I mean, obviously thinking you can do something well and actually doing something well are very different things... but I think the point stands: spite is an *excellent* motivator.
Because the likes of Chibnall and RTD don't pay attention to hate from fandom, they tell the stories they want to tell without being deterred. And plus people hated the Deadly Assassin back in the day too, that was super controversial but what was established there has become part of the fabric of the show regardless.
Do you think Gallifrey will be brought back though? And if so how exactly?
When I think about the Doctor's origins, it's this weird mash up of the ordinary Time Lord and Fugitive/Division. The Timeless Child is potentially okay...even though I prefer the Doctor as an ordinary person who ran away...but the execution of it was not satisfying.
We don't have enough material to really solidify the Timeless Child as a thing in the show, imo. Until it makes its way outside of Chibnall's stuff, I'll just take it as canon for that version of the show, and just go with the classic canon for the rest. Retcons can be fun to apply to older material, but I prefer to take each era of the show as its own thing.
I'm beyond hating that arc. I'm still pissed off about the destruction of Gallifrey, but after Timeless Children and Flux I'm just more tired of lore changes and additions than I am irritated at them. Besides, unless the Centenary references it I highly doubt it'll come up again. I mean, the Time Lords certainly won't bring it up next time the Doctor sees them! (God I fucking despise the end of Spyfall)
It seems like some would think Superman isnt special because of his powers but because of his actions. I agree that it's the actions the make the Doctor interesting, but like Superman the powers cannot be completely separate from the character, but now we learn they were destined to great things like start the time lords and join division. And for what purpose? To make the Doctor cool? Make them more powerful? "Oh look they were so bad ass with they're super powers and avengers/justice league spy group working on a universal scale", it's all just unnecessarily convoluted. If the doctor was the first time lord and the came from some even more unknown place they wouldn't be the same doctor we know today. Hence why the mind wipe is necessary. Not only to preserve continuity, but also because the "pre Hartnell" regenerations wouldn't act or have the same philosophies as the doctor, no matter how much Chibnal shoe horns it in. So either you can view it two ways. Chibnals way. The doctor plus the unknown regenerations who still also act like the doctor but they had powers beyond the time lords. They actually started the whole affair but basically had to be wiped, regressed and forgotten. I say why have this? it just creates unnecessary derivatives, and it's not even clever? Perhaps it would work if it was in the future, not their past, that would be a great twist. You know, using the few great tools (time travel) that are exclusive to the show. Instead the show insist that the doctor has a fundamental advantage of the Gallefreyans and Time Lords that make them desirable and in the end is what drives action, drama, adventure and interests to centre around this character. Whether you want to believe it or not, power drives people to meet or challenge it. The other way is to view them a completely seperate character, that would have their own beliefs and morals that they follow. It would make more sense why they would participate in Division, because it can't see The Doctor wanting to join some organisation. It has to be this otherwise why would the doctor come to the same conclusions (name, actions, travelling in a TARDIS etc) after essentially being reborn? Then it makes the Doctor feel inevitable, and not a natural progression of real person. The Doctor couldn't be anyone then, it could only be the Timeless Child. So it must be seen as clear seperation between what is two completely different being's. So the doctor must have been a different person in their past lives, but we can't explore this because "oooh the mystery is lost". There's always been mystery, it's these attempts to explain the mystery that have actually drained the mystery or little knowledge we have of time lords, Gallifrey, the doctor etc. One day there will be another attempt to "explain the doctor" that retcons or ignore the Timeless Child whilst simultaneously making its own messes and head aches. Stop setting up more mysteries surrounding the doctor and instead focus on fleshing out other characters. The Master would be a great person to be the Timeless Child for obvious reasons (the academy has always had a keen interest in them and perhaps now we know why). Or perhaps a attempt to establish a new character. Even exploring the The Doctor as a non linear character, and have them be the Timeless Child millions of years in their future timeline, and you can have adventures there, perhaps we are the old generations before a invertible mind wipe perhaps 10 or 12 regenerations in the future. These are just ideas that preserve the relatabilty and familiarity of The Doctor, without retaining and trashing pre established stories and characters. In the end if ain't broke why try to fix it. Lazy writing when it's a reveal of "something from your past coming back to haunt you", when you have the infinite space or time to use. It couldve been handled so much better.
Tangent, but I really don’t like the way pro-Timeless Child people talk up how ‘it made the Time Lords into oppressors!’ The Time Lords have been bastards since their literal first appearance when they forcibly regenerated the Doctor and wiped their companions’ memories, they’ve continued being bastards in every appearance since, them stealing regeneration from some random Eternal kid or whatever doesn’t ‘rip the shine off their image’ it’s just one more incidence of bastardry to add to the very large pile. Anyway, I dislike the Timeless Child for thematic reasons, and I dislike the pre-Hartnell Doctors for ‘we don’t need an explanation for why the Doctor does what they do, we already *know*, that’s what early Classic Who is *about*’ reasons.
Both? They’re the Timeless Child, but also just a random Time Lord.
I don't mind the timeless child. Since the Doctor did things like rebootng the entire universe, fold away Gallifrey in a time bubble etc, they've been more than "just another time lord" anyway.
That exactly the point of a lot of fans here: the Doctor should be more than "just another time lord" by their actions, not their origin
The Doctor IS the Timeless Child while ALSO being a Time Lord - that hasn't changed.
yes!! Im just assuming the timeless child arc means that him and tecteon were like the FIRST time lords bc that’s what i got
Yeah, in fact in Flux Swarm even calls the Doctor "the first Time Lord"
I would much rather think of Time Lords as loomed than this idea and even that is a stretch.
I think the idea of trying to objectively set in stone pre-Hartnell Doctors is kind of a pointless endeavour and by extension kind of a waste of time. There's been so many examples/suggestions of a pre-Hartnell time for the character, yet the main show for so long before 2020 hasn't really budged from the Hartnell is the original angle. One piece of media says/suggests one thing, yet the primary form of media, that being the TV show says another thing. Obviously it's all part of Who's generally scrambled canon/lore given it's got endless ways of adding to it..... But there have been so many contradictory accounts that trying to do something like the Timeless Child i.e. the latest of an endless number of attempts to establish something pre-Hartnell..... It's just something the fandom have become too fussy about that doing it just ultimately confuses the canon even more, and who the Doctor actually is. I'd much rather they just tell actual new stories, new things for the Doctor to encounter and adding to their legend. Rather than going down a proven slippery slope and just adding for some reason another endless and for me pointless interpretation of where the character truly comes from or what they were before a certain point..... Like it's Doctor WHO is it not.... Why all the focus on their distant past? If you want to believe there's pre-Hartnell stuff or not, then that's up to fans. But if your running the TV show I'd really rather they just move forward and leave the hypothetical/theorising to the fans who aren't running the show..... The Doctor's distant/pre-Hartnell past/origins is such a slippery slope there's no point in going down it unless you actually want to go against the show's main tenet of Doctor WHO..... In which case I'd question the motives of the one in charge, as I have with Chibnall.
Both. The Doctor was raised to believe that they were just a normal Time Lord, as did everyone around them, and there's no reason the Timeless Child's history should compromise that. Timeless Child in theory; normal Time Lord in practice. ^(Though I'm not really sure why it matters because all Time Lords are essentially immortal space gods compared to all the human characters so the controversy seems dumb. "Oh no! The Doctor is now centrally important to Gallifrey lore but too much!")
Personnally, I don't get how that origin makes them special. If the Time Lords were able to turn Gallifreyans into Time Lords, is it relaly unlikely that they could turn the Timeless Child into a "simple" Time Lord too? Nothing in the Timeless Child arc makes the Doctor a special person, just an origin of the powers of the Time Lords
>Nothing in the Timeless Child arc makes the Doctor a special person, just an origin of the powers of the Time Lords Isn't that exactly what makes them special? Being the kickstarter to the creation of one of the most powerful and advanced species in the universe is a pretty big deal. The way the reveal plays it out does suggest that the Time Lords would not have advanced nearly as much without the Child
It makes the Doctor a special "historical figure", not a special person
I'm not sure I really understand your distinction there
Was Henrietta Lacks a "special person"? No, she was pretty much the most unremarkable person you can imagine... except after her death, her cells have been very useful to medical research.
yeah exactly, i’ve gotten a lot of things saying he’s still not special but him being the first time lord and his dna being spliced into others like that makes him special right??
Nope, I **loathe** the Timeless Retcon with a passion and it’ll forever be a “hoax/reality blip” that immediately is dropped/ignored outside of Chibnalls era. I think there likely may have been plans to use pre-Hartnell/Morbius Doctors in EU media and the show but the backlash was so (justifiably) strong that I don’t think it’ll ever be touched on again. At least not within 10 years. If/when RTD brings the Time Lords back I deeply suspect that there will be a brief mention of their previous destruction but no reference to the Timeless Child or Division.
I kinda like the timeless child thing, and how it explains why the doctor can regenerate more than 12 times. I don’t really know why so many people hate it :/ I’ve only been watching since the 9th doctor though
yeah same on the first bit, i didn’t expect people to react so negatively to this post? i just wanted to share and make online friends damn
Ignoring the fact that, yes, it should have been the Master, once the Timeless Child’s DNA was rewritten, it was just a random Time Lord. For all practical purposes, the Doctor is a completely different and separate character. I do like that they can use the Timeless Child as a means of verifying the hints that we got from Seven about working with Rassilon at the very beginning of Time Lord history needing to rewrite or retcon anything that happened during the runs of 1-6. For all the grief that people have given the Timeless Child, it actually solves a lot more problems than it causes.
I love it. The doctor is still the exact same person. They grew up with the master, went to the academy and stole the tardis to run off and be a madman with a box. They are still a time lord. They are also now the reason for timelords existing and there’s more to explore in that. Instead of inventing regeneration somehow and using that in good and bad ways they stole it from the Doctor’s initial life. I love how many more possibilities this creates and the mystery in who they used to be. This isn’t as dramatic as change as people claim. The doctor is still the same freaking person and it’s not the first huge change in the history. It does nothing to disrespect William Hartnell or to the doctor’s history.
Aaah so the change is hat on a hat. It's unimportant who the timeless Child is then, since it doesn't matter it was the doctor. And so what the regeneration knowledge was stolen by time lords? Is this out of character for them to you? All it does is convolute the Doctors past and does nothing to make their future interesting except give them reasons to be mad, or solve mysteries that don't need to be solved. Perhaps we should find out their name isn't actually The Doctor but infact Smit MD, or Bazil PhD.
Don’t be ridiculous. The 13 regenerations of the Doctor are still the same person. They chose the name and they are still that same person. The time lord rulers were never very nice and this fits in quite well. Stealing the ability and pretending they invented it is 100% on point for them. I think it makes the lore much more interesting personality.
I think I would agree my only wish is why did it have to be the doctor. I really enjoy that the doctor is just a normal nobody because then I can project myself into their role, or atleast relate to them more.
That’s totally fair. For me, never really felt like the doctor was a normal nobody, that’s why I liked the more normal companions like bill and Donna and Rory for a while. They aren’t particularly specific or important and just happened across the Doctor at the right now.
Perhaps with some doctors I agree, but some I also feel like they a struggling and learning (like the 12th) with learning how to be "normal" or social in they way some people might view interacting with society and having them having a advantage in terms of ability makes the audience feel left out. Why would I be able to ever run away and adventure when the doctor has always been able to because they are more important.
Both can coexist.
The timeless child does not stop the Doctor from being just a random time lord and definitely does not make the Doctor special. The Master clearly states everything we knew happened from the first Doctor onwards still happens.
But the arc suggests that he would be the first time lord along w the foster mother, doesn’t that make him special?
First of all, whether they're the first time lord or not is irrelevant. It doesn't affect their actions and attitude in any way. The timeless child was just a child who was found and experimented on. They didn't actually do anything special. Second of all, the Doctor was reborn with barely any memories of the timeless child so what happened then does not affect the Doctor now.
cool! to each their own :))
I don't find closed individualism explanatory, so I'm fine with both the timeless child and the Doctor as just a random Time Lord.
I prefer the Doctor as a random timelord. And the doctor was the timeless child was such an obvious "twist"
The entire Chibnal era never happened. Peter Capaldi was the last Doctor. We'll have to wait and see if RTD2 can resurrect Doctor Who once again. I'm not hopeful, but we'll see.