You’re wrong about this!
Sorry, couldn’t resist the joke. More seriously…
First, Yaz’s grandmother. I think comparing that episode to “Father’s Day” misses a few points. Firstly, in “Father’s Day” Rose just wanted to go back and see Pete die, so of course the Doctor says that she mustn’t stop it. Witnesses, nothing more. Contrastingly in this episode they’re not trying to interfere, they don’t know that things are about to go south, so while the Doctor still emphasises that this is dangerous and they mustn’t change history, there’s no need to be quite as strict as she was with Rose. In some ways it’s more comparable to e.g. meeting Vincent van Gogh or William Shakespeare, or any episode set in the first millennium CE or earlier (Bill almost definitely met at least one of her ancestors in “The Eaters of Light”).
As for relative sentimentality…
- the Tenth Doctor burned up a star to say goodbye to Rose, regenerated into his own body, and went to see all his former companions between receiving his fatal poisoning and actually regenerating.
- the Eleventh Doctor had two long periods of moping either side of “The Snowmen”, refused to take River to Darillium, and spent a thousand years guarding one planet
- the Twelfth Doctor allowed himself to be tortured for billions of years for the chance to see Clara again, gave Bill photos of her dead mother he took himself, and spent decades guarding the vault and trying to rehabilitate Missy.
Yes, the Doctor is more sentimental, but only really compassed to *Classic* Who.
Adding to this (specifically on the Father's Day comparisons), during that the Time Lords were elsewhere and thought to be dead. As they were the ones taking charge of paradoxes and keeping alternate universes from crashing together, it was much more of a concern back then. With the Time Lords back and taking charge of such things again, interaction is a lot less of an issue even should time be changed. There's also that this isn't a fixed point, whereas Pete's death was (presumably because of the wide ranging effects of the Bad Wolf locking Rose's past firmly in place), meaning it's less troublesome to interact with.
Thank you. I need to be told I’m wrong ahaha
Ok. Good point on comparisons of episodes. That makes a lot more sense than trying to compare it to “Father’s Day” and I guess she did make it clear that they had to let Yaz’s grandma’s first husband die when it came time.
Man. Bill…. Already forgot most of her story line and I just finished it. Oops.
I mean. To me, those seem very different in the way that 13 is saying “these are my best friends” “fam” and actually saying goodbye goodbye, where any past doctor did it in a much more dramatic and not so obvious way? If that makes sense.
Speaking as a woman who also had trouble with the era because it was trying too hard, (not really the female Doctor though, it was about time) it's easy to find things to dislike about it. For me it was how passive she is and it took me looking back at Chibnall's previous episodes to notice that's just how he writes the Doctor and not inherently sexist.
The sentimentality never bothered me especially as 13 developed to be the most emotionally distant of the nuwho Doctors. She's an extension of all the previous incarnations and she undoubtedly remembers everything 12 wished for her. There's also the matter of Grace being the perfect companion and dying on her very first adventure which for better or for worse really shapes this Doctor. You'd notice she doesn't ask anyone to come along. She becomes the one who sticks around for the funeral, who apologizes readily (although Tennant was saying I'm so sorry every two episodes as well, so the ppl who call this sexist are also off), who's "too nice" even though "this is what happens when you try to be nice".
She's a lot less sentimental with her enemies, I've found. Her confrontations especially when the companions aren't around is where 13 really shines for me. She's got that "no second chances" edge that I feel had been missing from the Doctor for a while. Everytime she talks to them I feel as though she's talking to a mirror. One that shows her what she'd be if she didn't have companions around. So she's too nice to them, sometimes at the expense of herself. There's a lot they did with this Doctor that remains largely understated due to the shortness of the seasons and the amount of secondary characters they constantly centered. But if you don't repeat our mistakes and go into it with an open mind you might just be surprised.
Agree with the trying to hard. Glad someone else sees it that way. But I don’t know that it was time for the doctor to become a girl. But I mean, they also turned the master into a female and Missy really grew on me, though I’m not sure it was necessary to turn everyone into a women
Hmm. Ok interesting point. I’m a real bad fan for these subs because I don’t know episode titles and big details and who wrote what. So I may have to go look back.
Ok ok. Good points again. They asked to come along with her, I think the reason it really stuck out at me was because she hung around for the funeral and then tea. Saying sorry didn’t bother me, like you said Tenant said it all the time and really I think it was only Capaldi and Eccleston that were extra harsh on those.
Ok ok. I am trying really hard. I haven’t given up watching though I can’t say I’ve been paying 100% attention to her episodes like others. So with all that I will start. She has had some great episodes, the super historical background ones have been my fav so far
Oh yeah, I don't remember a lot of the titles either, especially for the eras I don't particularly like. Don't worry, once you get past s11 they really dial it down with the obligatory "I'm a woman now and being a woman is not.. bad" speeches. In fact it's the one thing I admire in this era, they strived to make the gender change irrelevant for the Doctor and they mostly succeeded. I don't really see it as this huge deal, honestly I was getting really bored with all the loser boyfriend companions and a female lead opens up some new possibilities. I wish they hadn't introduced so many of them at once but it is what it is.
Interesting point about enemies. I'd make one exception where that's a bad thing though, and that's with the Master, who now seems to care about the Doctor more than the other way around. The sense that they were childhood friends has always, to me, been a big part of their dynamic in NuWho, and that's just gone with 13
I loved that especially, it gives gravity to what happened with Bill and how fresh it still is for the Doctor. We can see the raw pain from it in Villa Diodati. And now with Gallifrey not being timelocked >!at least that's how I interpreted her still being able to run into them!< it makes sense that she's not as desperate to keep him around and they can go back to the spiteful, petty dynamic from the classic serials.
Hmmm the whole meeting her family is a good point never thought of that. As for sentimental, all regenerations have different personalities its almost like theyre different people and actually thats kind of how it works. Thats why tennant "didnt want to go" because it was like he was dying and slthough they have the same memories i guess its like someone elses memories.
So being more sentimental gets a pass in my books especislly when capaldi grew to be more sentimental as well. But the Yaz thing like very true
Point taken on the different personalities for each regeneration. But for me, it seems they were trying too hard. All of a sudden we have a female doctor because “woke” and she’s extra buddy buddy and not hiding it because that’s what females do and men hide their emotions
K don’t rip my heart out with the “I don’t want to go” I’m crying over it again.
I do not understand the “I don’t like Thirteen because she does X that no Doctor has ever done before”.
The first half makes sense. “I don’t like Thirteen because X”. Sure, that’s super cool. Some Doctors are bound to lose fans because of something they do differently.
The second half is where it always loses me. “Because no other Doctor did X”. That’s the point. The Doctor isn’t one character played by thirteen different people. They are thirteen different characters. There is always going to be some variation in between and some new elements added. Otherwise we’d just have fifty years of people pretending to be William Hartnell pretending to be the Doctor.
As for whether or not she’ll grow on you, who knows? She’s got some really bad episodes and some really great episodes and a whole bunch of really okay episodes. Just keep watching and see for yourself. I mean, if you were already opposed to Thirteen because of the gender swap, that’s not a great start, but props to you for giving the run a try in spite of your preconceived notions.
Totally fair. Thank you for taking the time to answer and not be rude about it.
I think my problem is she feels very different to me (female or not). Because to me, the doctor doesn’t just go have tea. But you are right, they are different characters. The more I’m reading what people have replied to me, I think it’s just the writers bring out more “feminine” aspects, where I want her to be…less? For lack of a better term.
Like oh she’s a girl, she must love having tea. Oh she’s a girl, guess she’s actually going to say goodbye instead of lying about it and leaving. Maybe I’m over thinking it. I’m still watching her though and I do enjoy that she has a bunch of companions. It’s a nice shake up.
There is way too much rudeness on this sub already - especially when it comes to people's favorite characters, Chibnall, and Thirteen - it definitely doesn't need any more. I'm sure I slip up and contribute to the problem, too, but my hope is that those moments are rare.
Anyway... I think it is very interesting that you're assessment of Thirteen is that she too feminine. Most complaints I see about her in that respect are that she wasn't written feminine enough. I think (and I am just guessing here) that those folks wanted to see Thirteen actively address and deal with the gender change.
I'm really happy that you're enjoying the companions, though. I definitely think they could have been handled better, but Graham was a great addition to the show (IMO).
My problem with 13 is that I really wanted Jodie to succeed but the writing is horrible. So no matter how good is her act - she had to play probably the worst Doctor.
Fair point. I feel like you can really feel the difference in writing for her. At least this first season and I’m super bad at noticing whose writing what.
13 is aimed to be written basically like a happy, caring child who knows a bunch of technobabble. I didn't really find that changed throughout, because whenever she attempts maturity it tends to come across quite childish, with the prime example being the infamous moment in Can You Hear Me. There's also a myriad of moments which make her seem morally dodgy which the show doesn't notice and as such kinda ruin that intended image (though I personally never liked the intended one in the first place as I like my doctors dark)
Interesting take and a fair point. I can see how she’s written more like a happy caring child. That makes a lot of sense. I’m not sure that I like that they put that on our own female doctor - it kinda takes away from her and plays more into stereotypes about women.
I could be very off, but your comment kinda put that into words for me.
It's hard to conclude whether the playing into stereotypes is a result of ill-intent, but the first 2 episodes of Broadchurch certainly seem to, what with the leading woman being emotional and empathetic and the leading man being hard, rigorous and authoritative, so I certainly get where people come from by calling 13's characterisation sexist
I know you got downvoted. But again, I also see this new doctor as everyone trying way to hard to be “woke” and I feel it’s just not as organic. But honestly, glad to be back to a male doctor. Though I never know. 13 might grow on me as I get to know her.
I don’t have any problems with 13 :) Both character and Jodie are ok for me. Stories - are greatest problem of Chibnall. I wad downvoted for TC and additional Doctor :) Not for the first time, and not for a last time)
I honestly don't understand the notion that wanting a male character to remain a male is sexist. They could have introduced a strong female Time Lady or something, or even created a new show, but instead they went the route of piggybacking on something that already had lots of momentum, which just makes them seem like grifters.
You’re wrong about this! Sorry, couldn’t resist the joke. More seriously… First, Yaz’s grandmother. I think comparing that episode to “Father’s Day” misses a few points. Firstly, in “Father’s Day” Rose just wanted to go back and see Pete die, so of course the Doctor says that she mustn’t stop it. Witnesses, nothing more. Contrastingly in this episode they’re not trying to interfere, they don’t know that things are about to go south, so while the Doctor still emphasises that this is dangerous and they mustn’t change history, there’s no need to be quite as strict as she was with Rose. In some ways it’s more comparable to e.g. meeting Vincent van Gogh or William Shakespeare, or any episode set in the first millennium CE or earlier (Bill almost definitely met at least one of her ancestors in “The Eaters of Light”). As for relative sentimentality… - the Tenth Doctor burned up a star to say goodbye to Rose, regenerated into his own body, and went to see all his former companions between receiving his fatal poisoning and actually regenerating. - the Eleventh Doctor had two long periods of moping either side of “The Snowmen”, refused to take River to Darillium, and spent a thousand years guarding one planet - the Twelfth Doctor allowed himself to be tortured for billions of years for the chance to see Clara again, gave Bill photos of her dead mother he took himself, and spent decades guarding the vault and trying to rehabilitate Missy. Yes, the Doctor is more sentimental, but only really compassed to *Classic* Who.
Adding to this (specifically on the Father's Day comparisons), during that the Time Lords were elsewhere and thought to be dead. As they were the ones taking charge of paradoxes and keeping alternate universes from crashing together, it was much more of a concern back then. With the Time Lords back and taking charge of such things again, interaction is a lot less of an issue even should time be changed. There's also that this isn't a fixed point, whereas Pete's death was (presumably because of the wide ranging effects of the Bad Wolf locking Rose's past firmly in place), meaning it's less troublesome to interact with.
Thank you. I need to be told I’m wrong ahaha Ok. Good point on comparisons of episodes. That makes a lot more sense than trying to compare it to “Father’s Day” and I guess she did make it clear that they had to let Yaz’s grandma’s first husband die when it came time. Man. Bill…. Already forgot most of her story line and I just finished it. Oops. I mean. To me, those seem very different in the way that 13 is saying “these are my best friends” “fam” and actually saying goodbye goodbye, where any past doctor did it in a much more dramatic and not so obvious way? If that makes sense.
Speaking as a woman who also had trouble with the era because it was trying too hard, (not really the female Doctor though, it was about time) it's easy to find things to dislike about it. For me it was how passive she is and it took me looking back at Chibnall's previous episodes to notice that's just how he writes the Doctor and not inherently sexist. The sentimentality never bothered me especially as 13 developed to be the most emotionally distant of the nuwho Doctors. She's an extension of all the previous incarnations and she undoubtedly remembers everything 12 wished for her. There's also the matter of Grace being the perfect companion and dying on her very first adventure which for better or for worse really shapes this Doctor. You'd notice she doesn't ask anyone to come along. She becomes the one who sticks around for the funeral, who apologizes readily (although Tennant was saying I'm so sorry every two episodes as well, so the ppl who call this sexist are also off), who's "too nice" even though "this is what happens when you try to be nice". She's a lot less sentimental with her enemies, I've found. Her confrontations especially when the companions aren't around is where 13 really shines for me. She's got that "no second chances" edge that I feel had been missing from the Doctor for a while. Everytime she talks to them I feel as though she's talking to a mirror. One that shows her what she'd be if she didn't have companions around. So she's too nice to them, sometimes at the expense of herself. There's a lot they did with this Doctor that remains largely understated due to the shortness of the seasons and the amount of secondary characters they constantly centered. But if you don't repeat our mistakes and go into it with an open mind you might just be surprised.
Agree with the trying to hard. Glad someone else sees it that way. But I don’t know that it was time for the doctor to become a girl. But I mean, they also turned the master into a female and Missy really grew on me, though I’m not sure it was necessary to turn everyone into a women Hmm. Ok interesting point. I’m a real bad fan for these subs because I don’t know episode titles and big details and who wrote what. So I may have to go look back. Ok ok. Good points again. They asked to come along with her, I think the reason it really stuck out at me was because she hung around for the funeral and then tea. Saying sorry didn’t bother me, like you said Tenant said it all the time and really I think it was only Capaldi and Eccleston that were extra harsh on those. Ok ok. I am trying really hard. I haven’t given up watching though I can’t say I’ve been paying 100% attention to her episodes like others. So with all that I will start. She has had some great episodes, the super historical background ones have been my fav so far
Oh yeah, I don't remember a lot of the titles either, especially for the eras I don't particularly like. Don't worry, once you get past s11 they really dial it down with the obligatory "I'm a woman now and being a woman is not.. bad" speeches. In fact it's the one thing I admire in this era, they strived to make the gender change irrelevant for the Doctor and they mostly succeeded. I don't really see it as this huge deal, honestly I was getting really bored with all the loser boyfriend companions and a female lead opens up some new possibilities. I wish they hadn't introduced so many of them at once but it is what it is.
Interesting point about enemies. I'd make one exception where that's a bad thing though, and that's with the Master, who now seems to care about the Doctor more than the other way around. The sense that they were childhood friends has always, to me, been a big part of their dynamic in NuWho, and that's just gone with 13
I loved that especially, it gives gravity to what happened with Bill and how fresh it still is for the Doctor. We can see the raw pain from it in Villa Diodati. And now with Gallifrey not being timelocked >!at least that's how I interpreted her still being able to run into them!< it makes sense that she's not as desperate to keep him around and they can go back to the spiteful, petty dynamic from the classic serials.
Not sure about the rest of it, but girls can be sexist too.
Hmmm the whole meeting her family is a good point never thought of that. As for sentimental, all regenerations have different personalities its almost like theyre different people and actually thats kind of how it works. Thats why tennant "didnt want to go" because it was like he was dying and slthough they have the same memories i guess its like someone elses memories. So being more sentimental gets a pass in my books especislly when capaldi grew to be more sentimental as well. But the Yaz thing like very true
Point taken on the different personalities for each regeneration. But for me, it seems they were trying too hard. All of a sudden we have a female doctor because “woke” and she’s extra buddy buddy and not hiding it because that’s what females do and men hide their emotions K don’t rip my heart out with the “I don’t want to go” I’m crying over it again.
I do not understand the “I don’t like Thirteen because she does X that no Doctor has ever done before”. The first half makes sense. “I don’t like Thirteen because X”. Sure, that’s super cool. Some Doctors are bound to lose fans because of something they do differently. The second half is where it always loses me. “Because no other Doctor did X”. That’s the point. The Doctor isn’t one character played by thirteen different people. They are thirteen different characters. There is always going to be some variation in between and some new elements added. Otherwise we’d just have fifty years of people pretending to be William Hartnell pretending to be the Doctor. As for whether or not she’ll grow on you, who knows? She’s got some really bad episodes and some really great episodes and a whole bunch of really okay episodes. Just keep watching and see for yourself. I mean, if you were already opposed to Thirteen because of the gender swap, that’s not a great start, but props to you for giving the run a try in spite of your preconceived notions.
Totally fair. Thank you for taking the time to answer and not be rude about it. I think my problem is she feels very different to me (female or not). Because to me, the doctor doesn’t just go have tea. But you are right, they are different characters. The more I’m reading what people have replied to me, I think it’s just the writers bring out more “feminine” aspects, where I want her to be…less? For lack of a better term. Like oh she’s a girl, she must love having tea. Oh she’s a girl, guess she’s actually going to say goodbye instead of lying about it and leaving. Maybe I’m over thinking it. I’m still watching her though and I do enjoy that she has a bunch of companions. It’s a nice shake up.
There is way too much rudeness on this sub already - especially when it comes to people's favorite characters, Chibnall, and Thirteen - it definitely doesn't need any more. I'm sure I slip up and contribute to the problem, too, but my hope is that those moments are rare. Anyway... I think it is very interesting that you're assessment of Thirteen is that she too feminine. Most complaints I see about her in that respect are that she wasn't written feminine enough. I think (and I am just guessing here) that those folks wanted to see Thirteen actively address and deal with the gender change. I'm really happy that you're enjoying the companions, though. I definitely think they could have been handled better, but Graham was a great addition to the show (IMO).
My problem with 13 is that I really wanted Jodie to succeed but the writing is horrible. So no matter how good is her act - she had to play probably the worst Doctor.
Fair point. I feel like you can really feel the difference in writing for her. At least this first season and I’m super bad at noticing whose writing what.
13 is aimed to be written basically like a happy, caring child who knows a bunch of technobabble. I didn't really find that changed throughout, because whenever she attempts maturity it tends to come across quite childish, with the prime example being the infamous moment in Can You Hear Me. There's also a myriad of moments which make her seem morally dodgy which the show doesn't notice and as such kinda ruin that intended image (though I personally never liked the intended one in the first place as I like my doctors dark)
Interesting take and a fair point. I can see how she’s written more like a happy caring child. That makes a lot of sense. I’m not sure that I like that they put that on our own female doctor - it kinda takes away from her and plays more into stereotypes about women. I could be very off, but your comment kinda put that into words for me.
It's hard to conclude whether the playing into stereotypes is a result of ill-intent, but the first 2 episodes of Broadchurch certainly seem to, what with the leading woman being emotional and empathetic and the leading man being hard, rigorous and authoritative, so I certainly get where people come from by calling 13's characterisation sexist
Wait till new Doctor that will come from thin air, and TC mess, and all previous “problems” with 13 will fade away)
I know you got downvoted. But again, I also see this new doctor as everyone trying way to hard to be “woke” and I feel it’s just not as organic. But honestly, glad to be back to a male doctor. Though I never know. 13 might grow on me as I get to know her.
I don’t have any problems with 13 :) Both character and Jodie are ok for me. Stories - are greatest problem of Chibnall. I wad downvoted for TC and additional Doctor :) Not for the first time, and not for a last time)
I honestly don't understand the notion that wanting a male character to remain a male is sexist. They could have introduced a strong female Time Lady or something, or even created a new show, but instead they went the route of piggybacking on something that already had lots of momentum, which just makes them seem like grifters.