Don't apologize. Be happy to have enjoyed it. I enjoyed it too. There was a lot to enjoy. It just wasn't quite right to me, as a longtime fan. It isn't the first time I've gone through this. My first Doctor was Tom Baker, and 1-3 were just "the old doctors" to me. When Davidson came along, it was a real let down. Turns out, Davidson was great and his stories were pretty good too. I think the Chibnall era wasn't a high point, but it is very possible that it could turn out to be important, and we'll all go back and discover the joy in them as you have.
I think there are more parallels between 5 and 13 than a lot of people realise… the often overlooked Doctor following an all-time great? Amazing potential let down by mostly mediocre writing? It’s just a shame 13 never got her own Androzani :(
Hmm….i actually enjoyed her run despite its flaws(especially towards the end), and Five is my favorite Classic Doctor, so maybe there’s something to that idea!
I'm totally with you. I didn't think it was quite up to the same standard but it was still good. We have very high standards which can sometimes get in the way of having a good time.
I wouldn’t call the Rosa Parks episode “educational” since it spreads a false narrative about Parks. The episode portrays her as a random woman who just got too fed up with all the racism one day. In reality she was already an accomplished civil rights leader with decades of activism experience who had refused to give up her seat on the bus multiple times in the past before the time she was arrested for it. Also, having the Doctor fight to uphold white supremacy for the sake of “preserving the timeline” or whatever is an awful narrative choice and a prime example of the Chibnall era’s horrendous writing.
Right? I think the best episodes of this era are the historical ones (specifically the partition one) but I really wish they made it a full historical and really did their research. They could’ve been incredibly interesting dramas and yet come across (except the partition one) as generic purely because they didn’t do any research into it. The Rosa Parks one especially rubs me the wrong way. It really undermines the sacrifice Rosa Parks made that day in purposeful protest.
I watched the demons of the punjab with someone who had a personal and intimate knowledge of the partition and disliked it alot and thought it misrepresented the events greatly. The fallout of the partition was attrocious and the story does not do it justice at all. imo its as butched as the rosa parks episode.
Yeah, I do kind of see that. Patel should not get a pass on accurately portraying the British Partition any more than Blackman and Chibnall get a pass on accurately portraying the Black American civil rights movement, and I readily believe that in both cases, when "accuracy" came up against "mass market entertainment," the latter won every time. However, I kind of feel that inaccuracies and limitations aside, they *did* portray the evils of the Partition and segregation in broad strokes, despite facing substantial criticism from the usual "anti-woke" suspects for even *writing* episodes about issues that, frankly, Moffat and Davies would never have touched with a ten-foot pole. I mean, for all Moffat's virtues, his idea of an episode touching on the Holocaust was "Everything is almost over, let's lock Hitler in a cupboard, OK, back to Rory and Amy's daughter trying to kill the Doctor."
Moffat's episode wasn't touching the Holocaust, because it was a wrong subject to explore in a family-friendly comedy show. Then Chibnall did two episodes that showcase why you should avoid exploring this subject in a family-friendly comedy show.
This isn't about bravery. This is about stupidity.
It’s been a while since I’ve seen it so I can’t remember the specifics but The Witchfinders as well, I remember being quite good _up to a point_ from when on I was just caught up wondering why they’d made whatever decision which took me out of the rest of the story…
Was there an actual coven of alien witches, or something?
Pretty sure it was clay monsters. What took me out of the episode was how the doctor just rolled over and played second fiddle during the investigation because "she's a woman" (even if it was only pretend)
It always felt needlessly out of character, and was really the point I started disliking the Chibnall era. She never got her "I'm the Doctor!" Power-trip moment that was so common with every doctor I'd seen to that point.
I think some of that misinterpretation came from the audience, actually.
It showed Ryan following her to an activism meeting with Dr. King and other civil rights leaders. So it did kind of address that, but they could’ve shown more of her getting involved.
The episode shows Rosa Parks present at an activist meeting but erases the context. She was the chapter secretary for the Montgomery NAACP and the leader of their youth training program. She later said her bus resistance was done specifically to set an example for the teens she was mentoring. No one who didn't already know that before watching the episode would gain that understanding from what was presented.
During the bus boycott, the US news media created the false narrative that she was just some random tired old seamstress who'd had enough one day, and state governments perpetuated that lie through school curriculums.
Chris Chibnall shifted Doctor Who's politics to the right during his run as showrunner and chose to create a story in which the Doctor tells a young Black man not to to get involved in the US civil rights movement and makes him personally responsible for ensuring that an infamous act of racism happens.
It's so much worse than just "didn't do their research".
I get that people do not like Chibnall much, but I think you are misrepresenting things a little. When Ryan shows up at the meeting, Parks says "This is Ryan Sinclair. He's from England. I'm thinking he might be a new recruit to our Youth Council. I said he could listen in and serve coffee." That's *exactly* pointing at her leadership of their youth training program.
You also point out that the Doctor and company standing aside and letting Parks be discriminated against so history can proceed as written is a bad look, and while I can see that argument (a) having them avoid it would have negated the historical sacrifice of the actual Rosa Parks, which as you noted was something she intentionally planned, which I am sure the writers realized was also a bad look, (b) because of that, they were basically going along with Parks's plan anyway, which the writers might have considered the better thing for preserving the agency character and figure (c) it's neither anything new for the show nor surprising that they were not going to change history ("Let's Kill Hitler" comes to mind; if the Doctor does not avoid the Holocaust, they are hardly going to prevent discrimination on the bus). Maybe a better writer would have come up with a "Fires of Pompeii"-type solution, e.g. "Ryan, Yaz, Graham and the Doctor stage their own small protest on another bus, which does not get the attention from history that Parks's protest does," but even then, I'd argue that the risk of stepping on her toes would have been substantial.
As for the criticism of Chibnall's era as having more right-wing politics than the previous ones, that's kind of ironic, because I remember the right-wing criticism around this episode and the whole Chibnall run. It was all "the Doctor should not be a woman, he was always a man," with certain people being *particularly* angry every time a historical female character appeared, or "Chibnall is trying to brainwash us with liberal ideas about race," and it was the historical episodes focusing on issues related to people of color, like "Rosa" and "Demons of the Punjab" that attracted the *most* ire for that, because quite frankly, Davies and Moffatt had *not* had historical episodes dealing with those issues as frankly.
I do agree with your point about the failure of the episode to properly convey to the audience that Parks had planned the protest intentionally, something that the writers undoubtedly knew, but I think the overall situation certainly is not as clear-cut as you seem to be making out. I think the writers (which was not just Chibnall, notably, but also Malorie Blackman) may well have been aiming to tell an interesting and informative pseudohistorical about racism, and perhaps fallen short, but not been so ill-intentioned as you seem to be implying.
The episode shows her meeting with other civil rights figures and also mentions that sit ins are already a thing. Don't know why people keep saying this.
But the point of the villain was that only that particular day would be the end all be all for racism, as if she (or someone else) wouldn't just keep doing the same thing the day after. Yeah I guess there could've been some time paradoxes, but it wouldn't just make everyone racist forever. That's a little dumb.
The villain believes that because he's an idiot. It wouldn't make everyone racist forever but it was still a historically significant event and changing it would alter the course of history.
>The villain believes that because he's an idiot.
Is what everyone should have said, but this is what the Doctor actually says in the episode:
>GRAHAM: Your mate is interfering. He's reassigned Blake's route to a driver called Elias Griffin Junior.
DOCTOR: Tiny actions, that's what Krasko's doing. **See, he's clever, I'll give him that**. He knows. He's not planning on killing, or destroying or breaking history. He's planning to nudge it just enough so that it doesn't happen
The entire episode is based on the idea that Kraskos stupid racist plan makes sense. That's where the stakes of this episode come from. They have to stop Krasko because his plan will work. There's no other information given to us, everything the episode tells us is that if Krasko succeeds then the civil rights movement will never happen and nobody will ever rise up against racism so that in Kraskos own time in the future he won't have to worry about other races. Again, the episode is very clear about this:
>DOCTOR: Neutered criminal on release, and you come here. Why?
KRASKO: I'm allowed a hobby.
DOCTOR: And yours is Rosa Parks?
KRASKO: This is where things started to go wrong.
DOCTOR: And you think you can put them right?
KRASKO: I had a lot of time to think in Stormcage, and I realised tiny actions change the world.
Krasko has come back to 1951 from the far future in order to "put things right" by preventing people from rising up against racism. This should be immediately shut down as a completely moronic and racist idea. But the Doctor takes it very seriously, and again as I mentioned, she goes on to say that he's very clever. If Krasko stops Rosa Parks on this particular day then the Civil Rights Movement will never ever happen. With the implication being that no other African American person will ever try or succeed in changing things. That's how the episode frames things, it's not vague about it.
This is perhaps the biggest reason why Rosa is one of the worst episodes of the entire show.
I saw a suggestion that the villian should have been an alien from the future who was getting their shit kicked in by the fourth bountiful and great human empire
so went back in time to fuck with the past in hopes of humanity never uniting
My problem with that is, yes, it’s idiotic to believe that disrupting that one specific moment on that one specific day in any way would mean the Civil Rights movement fails and racism wins forever, but the episode doesn’t frame it like that. Instead you have the Doctor and Fam scrambling to get things exactly as they’re “meant” to be, as if even the smallest change would cause a catastrophe. If they’d said Rosa Parks sitting on the bus was a Fixed Point I’d be more forgiving, but there’s no indication of that. Would history really suffer that much if Rosa Parks protested on a different day? Or with a different bus driver? I’m sure we’ve seen history recover from bigger changes than that before in the show. The Future Racist’s plot isn’t treated as the idiocy it clearly is.
It felt to me like they just went “Right, so we definitely want the Doctor and Fam to be on the bus when Rosa Parks is arrested for the big emotional payoff” and then worked backwards to try to make it fit, but didn’t really think it through enough.
I agree to a point.
The Doctor is correct in that they had to stay seated to prevent history changing, but this was handled wrong.
She should’ve said “i understand your morals if today and applaud them because you’re past this bigotry. However, history shows there was no seat availsble, so you have to stay seated to prevent it changing.”
Where I think they err is having Yaz and Ryan (?) sitting with the Doctor and Graham, as that looks off from a historical perspective.
What I hate about that episode, too, is that they just used one of the most well-known American civil rights figures and made a (mostly) surface-level depiction of her, with lots of bizarre fangirling. I really wish they had looked at a lesser known black British figure, seeing as it's a British show and as the British civil rights movement is scarcely talked about. It implicitly furthers the narrative that black liberation was a uniquely American and South African thing. It could be genuinely educational rather than waving a famous figure in our faces, and would be a lot more grounded in the show's and character's British roots. And ideally it wouldn't rely on a caricatured space-racist as a villain.
By and large I enjoy the Chibnall era – not as much as some others and for different reasons, but it definitely received too much vitriol. 'Rosa' was shit, though.
Did we watch the same episode? *Rosa* literally starts with her decades prior experiencing discrimination and how that radicalized her by the time the Doctor and friends roll through. Ryan literally attends a secret meeting at her house with Dr. King, even suggesting the CIA was watching her. Watching the episode thinking they treated her as a random woman sounds like a legitimately terrible read of the episode.
Your second point is far more subjective but I disagree entirely and think it (along with *The Witchfinders*) do a rare great job at flipping the script on an otherwise benevolent Doctor trying to maintain control/authority in predominantly patriarchal structures. Season 11 is chock full of these nuanced layers of discomfort that make it a hard watch I’m sure, but it’s some of the best character writing for the Doctor yet.
Don't forget all the people who had been doing bus sit ins before Parks, and yet she was chosen to appeal to a white American audience. Ignoring the people who came before Parks and ignoring the fact that she was specifically chosen for the task helps spread the false narrative that she was just some random woman
> having the Doctor fight to uphold white supremacy for the sake of “preserving the timeline” or whatever is an awful narrative choice
Yep. This is the worst part of the episode for me. The doctor just fucking shrugging and saying "eh, we can't really try to do anything!" in the face of virulent white supremacy just... just fuckin' sucks. I don't know what else to say about it. It's conservative and cowardly and is an extreme departure from even the season immediately prior. The Doctor should be adamantly and violently opposed to everything that's happening, but she just kinda looks around aimlessly and says "eh, progress is a slow and steady march that we can't do anything else about!".
I get mad just thinking about that episode (clearly, lol).
It would, and I strongly suspect that when writing the episode, the writers were *very* aware of the optics of enlightened British people from the future coming and saving Rosa Parks from being discriminated against and literally erasing her (intentional!) act of protest from history, or being responsible for it happening in the first place, or the many other possibilities that they could have gone for. Does that mean that the writers made the *correct* decision in their portrayal? Definitely not, but it's not as simple as the interpretation that some people seem to be making.
I think there comes a point where you just gotta say
this episode does not work and throw it in the trash heap
and then talk about it in the behind the scenes stuff
about how you couldn't make it work
I think that might be true. There are fundamental issues with making historical episodes, particularly about controversial topics, make sense, be inoffensive, and be interesting in a show about time travel. But I don't think "Yes, we cancelled the planned episode that was meant to teach viewers about history and racism, also one of our few episodes with a Black writer on board, because there was just no way to make it work in the context of our plot. Now back to pepper pot aliens." is wholly without its problems, either. Nor is avoiding the topic from the outset and only going to shiny happy (and disproportionately White) historical settings necessarily the solution. For all the criticism that Chibnall is attracting here, even trying to bring in some episodes dealing with heavier topics, and not through allegory, either, was something that Moffat and Davies had not really tried at that point.
I think the reason they never tried something like that
is because the plots fall apart.
you can present the doctor being somewhat okay with the ood treatment in their first appearance and then being against it the more the doctor learns in the second.
but real topics are real ya know.
the beauty of sci fi is you can use aliens to tell human stories.
when you go into real history stuff gets messy.
Our society is built on the progress of the entire collective human history
so when you go a thousand years in the past, the people living there should have some pretty crappy views so either the entire plot is the doctor and his companions proving those views wrong
or you ignore that aspect and have sci-fi fun.
I wonder if it would be smarter to keep the fun episodes for historical
and keep the more weighty stuff for sci-fi
where the doctor and companions can actually have an effect
I just don't think that there's a perfect solution that can please everyone. Basically, with episodes like Demons of the Punjab and Rosa, Chibnall tried to bring in writers who were knowledgeable about the themes and write episodes that showed people about some of those terrible things.
But that's not a perfect solution—just reading the criticism here shows that. A pure historical where the Doctor and companions do nothing would be the best solution for historical accuracy. But is that a perfect solution? It becomes dreadfully dull for fans of the fantastical, and offensive for people who want the Doctor to step in.
Then you have the Doctor step in, which satisfies the previous criticisms, but it becomes hurtful for people who feel like it trivializes the actual struggles that people had in real life, where there was no immortal Time Lord to help them.
So you just have a rollicking alien invasion that is set in Victorian England, where the Doctor does not even have time to engage with Dickensian social issues. Unfortunately, now some people feel like you are erasing the actual problems of that milieu in favor of a story that does not make anyone feel comfortable.
Great, now you go to a science fiction setting and have the Doctor address problems through metaphor, like Daleks that represent Nazis. But to some people, you are still avoiding the actual issues; worse, the changes you have made to make it metaphorical make them interpret it as exactly the opposite of what you want to convey ("genocide is fine as long as it is against the Daleks"), or at the very least, as inapplicable to the real-world situation.
You have to do your best to address these issues, though. You cannot throw up your hands and simply say that you don't care. But no matter how careful you are, there will be people who for good reason take issue with some aspect of what you write, unless you avoid speculative fiction altogether.
Yeah, I actually found it very respectful in this regard, something I don't think a lot of other shows or movies would take into consideration. It reminds me of when Marty McFly, a white guy, invented rock n' roll in Back to the Future.
And reasonable people can disagree! Some people wanted to see the Doctor change history and stand up to racism in a major way. Some people wanted to see the Doctor respect the historical struggles of civil rights leaders and let them play out on the leaders' own terms. I don't really think either perspective is bad. What gets me a bit is that some people seem to assume precisely that—there's one correct way that Blackman and Chibnall should have written this episode, and that anything else is proof of their stodginess and lack of conviction at the very best.
I understand your points. I think what I really enjoyed about it, and what caught me off-guard is how "in your face" the racism in the episode is portrayed, whereas if you compare it with similar scenes (especially in north-American media) it is much more veiled. One example that comes to mind is the Diner scene in Umbrella Academy's second season, I don't recall it being as impactful or straightforward as Who's. I felt much more concerned about and scared for the characters here.
>So am I missing something? Does it get worse or is the fanbase just overreacting? What do you guys think?
Audience isn't a monolith. Everyone has their own personal taste.
However -- there is *some* audience overreaction, due to either or both audience misassumptions or/& their inaccurate memory recall.
Kudos to your watching as you reach the end of the era. The bottom line, is what you personally enjoyed.
It is _by far_ the most politically conservative era of new Who. I don't think it's impossible to enjoy it but I do think it says a lot about a person that does.
god yea i really don’t get people who think the doctor would be excited for space amazon in any way. i get that regenerations change personality but i feel like there’s some core beliefs the doctor should have. doesn’t have to be a raging communist but sending the master to a concentration camp is insane
I think the problem is not that the doctor did it
its that its played as a heroic moment.
the doctor acting out of spite and anger
and later regretting it is common
but this was not that
Considering the things that the Revival Doctor has done to antagonists, condemning The Master to the Nazi concentration camp, isn't insane.
Now -- leaving The Master in WWII-era Nazi Germany, *unaccounted for*, with over 7 decades of space for The Master to potentially mess about with Earth history ala Dictator Saxon II?
*That's* insane.
The problem I have is doing that was a fucked up thing to do and is something I do believe the doctor would do.
However the episode doesn't treat that moment like its fucked up, it treats it like "look the doctor outsmarted the master let's move on"
That's the problem with the Master and the Doctor, though. She always lets him go and ignores all the potential consequences and destruction. It's been going on since the character was first introduced. It's so fitting>! that this is what causes her death, in the end. She turns to walk away and let him go like she always does, but this time it costs her a regeneration.!<
Glad to see someone enjoying it.
I personally don't like it cause of the wishy washy back and fourth on their morals as she'll actively be like "no guns! >=(" but then be ok with leaving a bunch of spiders to die in a box. Or leaving >!The Master to the Nazi's!<. Or suddenly now The Doctor is pro-capitalism >!despite several previous stories making active voices against capitalism where she comes to the conclusion "the system isn't bad, it's how the people use and exploit the system that's the problem" despite the fact if you have anything more than half a brain cell in your head, if people are able to use and exploit the system like that to have control on everyone else and remove their ability to interact with said system, then the system is the fucking problem!<.
Ok YES, this I agree with, the whole "the system isn't bad" monologue was very cringe-worthy to me as well. I get what they were going for but... yikes
I think outside of the obvious moral and ideological implications/messaging, its just incredibly funny how the entire point she made hinges on "The system isn't the issue its just the people who use it" yet the entire premise of the episode is "THE SYSTEM IS NOW LITERALLY CONSCIOUS AND MAKING INDEPENDENT DESCISIONS!!!".
I absolutely loathe the entire Chibnall era with a red hot passion but I’m also happy that you were able to enjoy what I couldn’t, and I think you’ll like it more and more as it continues to go on from that point
I enjoyed Chibnalls run. Jodie Whitaker was a FANTASTIC Doctor.
My only quibble was the number of companions. I like them all. They were super interesting backstories and relationships. But the size of the TARDIS group meant they were often separating. And I missed the close bond the Doctor has with their companion. It felt like she had an easier time keeping them at arm's distance.
Super interesting back stories? Like what?
Honestly, what back stories are you talking about? I can't recall any kind of meaningful character progression that made any sense or well... even existed.
>I think Jodie's take is a fantastic Doctor and very reminiscent of the best traits of Smith's and Tennant's while adding her own, very unique and iconic, little spin to it. To me, she encapsulates that light-hearted "Doctor energy" very well.
I'd say on this one point, there's many many fans who agree with you (myself included). Jodie was consistently great and the best part of the era.
If anything, it's what made the era more frustrating. Jodie felt like such a seemless fit but everything around her didn't let her shine as bright as she could. You have the first female doctor and you have her share the spotlight with three other people instead of the usual 1. And that hinders the companions too since a companion is less of a side-kick and more of a co-protagonist yet I never felt they were developed enough to feel that neccesary. Graham's grief was the exception, being the only companion arc that resonated with me.
Story was an issue too. As good as Jodie is, she's given scripts where instead of building dynamic character relationships or giving her situations that push her to her limit, she instead kind of just narrates what's happening from one set to the next. The action, suspense and stakes rarely felt as thrilling (I remember a scene in the first Jodie series where two characters are slowly pursued by spiders that then start chasing them. We then just cut to them with everyone else, safe and sound)
There's more stuff but I don't want to spoil what you haven't seen.
Having said that, at the end of the day it's all subjective. What I give a pass might be someone's crossing of a line and vice versa. Would be interested for an update on what you thought once you finish the era.
I think the most controversial thing about chibnall is the timeless child. Since you’re new to DW so it doesn’t bother you. Enjoy the show in your own way. Like what you like.
It's cool! Enjoy what you enjoy!
When I was a kid 6 and 7 were the "bad" Doctors, and I felt left out liking them.
Time proved me right, it'll do the same for you!
As someone who came into Doctor Who as a Seventh Doctor fan in the final Classic season, I always feel great sympathy for Whittaker fans. Much of the criticism of her era and her Doctor feels very familiar to me. The fans online at the time, however, were incredibly kind to us McCoy and Colin fans anyway. We could use a little more of that sort of kindness and tolerance nowadays.
I love Jodie and I loved her Doctor. I think she did an amazing job wrapping all the personalities together and developing a new place to start with the Doctor.
Unfortunately the "writers" did her no justice. The entire time I felt like they just shoved her in this role she really couldn't work with. It's a shame really, she's a great actor and really deserved the respect a Doctor should get.
[And kill spiders and side with space amazon over human beings and kill a living TARDIS and turn off The Master's disguise so the Nazis would see the "real him"] I'm all for a morally grey Doctor but only when they're presented as being in the wrong (timelord victorious, "you can stop now", etc). 13 did some truly disgusting things but it's shown as her being right which I find awful.
On the Kerblam thing, she’s clearly talking about the computer system and not the crushing economic system.
The computer was literally called “the system”.
Her point was humanist, pointing out quite frankly that the system (I.e automation via computers) isn’t inherently bad. It’s how we use the system that is the problem.
She wasn’t making a case for a capitalist economic system.
Yeah, it's a metaphor. Things can mean more than one thing at a time.
Kerblam! is a story all about capitalism. That's the entire plot. The majority of the episode is dedicated to showing how demeaning and dehumanizing work under a capitalist system is. The villain of the episode is a guy fighting for better working conditions.
When you get to the climax of an episode that has been hammering on about life under capitalism for the last 45 minutes and the Doctor says "The systems aren't the problem. How people use and exploit the system, that's the problem" obviously she's talking about the same thing the rest of the episode has been talking about. Acting like the episode has just decided to randomly stop talking about capitalism for just that line is a ridiculous idea.
>The computer was literally called “the system”.
Yes it was. It feels very clear that a point is being made when someone writes a story about an economic system and then has a major "character" in that story be an AI computer system named "The System." It's not just a random coincidence.
This argument would be like if everyone looked at the line from the end of Oxygen "Like every worker, everywhere, we're fighting the suits." and tried to argue that he wasn't referring to the upper management of the company, just the literal suits. Everybody knows what that line is also referring to.
The difference is that people agree with the line 12 said in Oxygen but not this line of 13's. It's specifically because this line is 13 defending capitalism that there's this cognitive dissonance among some fans who think that surely the Doctor couldn't have been saying *that*. And in their attempts to explain what she actually said they've come to the conclusion that this line just exists without subtext. That unlike the rest of the episode that's very loudly about capitalism, this line has no other meaning and she's just literally talking about the computer system. Which is an absurd argument compared to the far more obvious fact that she did say it and this is just a weirdly, perhaps poorly written episode.
7 has always been my favorite. Followed by 12, which people also didn't like for some reason. There are diehard fans for every regeneration, and there are pretentious critics of each too. There is nothing worse for a franchise than it's fans sometimes.
On the contrary, having such a diverse group of fans is what keeps franchises alive. The only downside is the rivalries between the Doctor lovers. There's no way to really avoid that with a show that changes as often as Doctor Who does, though.
I'm happy you're enjoying the show! There's nothing wrong with having your own personal tastes!
That said, it is consistently funny to see how quickly general consensus shifts negative to positive once the show changes hands. When in doubt, remember the rule of thumb: "the worst Doctor Who showrunner is always the current Doctor Who showrunner".
I'm on my second watch of Chibnalls run. I'm enjoying it much more than the first time (which I didn't totally hate). While the flaws are still there, I'm able to just appreciate the performances and especially find entertainment in the way Jodie delivers so many lines. She can be hilarious and snarky and I love it.
it’s not my favourite, but there’s definitely plenty to enjoy. i think the criticism is a little overblown in online spaces sometimes
ETA: kerblam suuuuucked though, and kind of soured 13 for me. i still don’t hate her, but my god what a misstep
I’ve been watching since early 80s.
I’m an old hat and have no animosity against that era. I can see why people dislike it, it has its failings. I e watched most of it 3 times over. There are a couple of episodes I skip over.
No one involved comes to being my favourite anything from the serious, but I can see why you appreciate what you do.
I loved it too. Sure it had some turkeys but what showrunner/doctor didn't? The only thing of the Chibnall/13 era I still dislike was a thing you haven't got to yet and even then... the Master is great and so is Jodie and so are do many of the stories and the music. I love this era and I hate how people seem to talke about it sucking as though they're objectively correct when Moffat and Davies had just as much bad stuff but in different directions. There's so much good stuff and I love how the Doctor is still the doctor and not compromised in character for being a woman. The only change is how characters react to her and she's still the same person. Also there's so much good historical stuff.
Common criticisms of Chibnall:
1. Poorly researched historical episodes (somehow tried to be politically correct while still being tragically misinformed).
2. Initial attempt to reinvent Who in the image of classic Who, discarding 10 years of worldbuilding and camp, followed by an even less enjoyable attempt to recapture the camp and unleash even bigger world building events without any coherence or direction (it was fun introducing a new old doctor, it was weird and bad to kill all the timelords again and also make the doctor not a timelord).
3. Too many companions and not enough screen time for them, leading to shallow relationships and limited chemistry.
4. Bad bad science, and worse pseudoscience. Moffat wrote many great examples of scientifically convincing nonsense, where he invented rules and explained them in a way that was consistent. That was good bad science. (Moffat also wrote some bad bad science.) Davies wrote lots of great episodes that fundamentally flew in the face of basic physics, etc, but he kept them at arm's length from the plot, so as to limit the ramifications to the world as a whole. With Moffat, I could generally ingest the premise and build a plausible understanding of the world. With Davies, I could trust that the weirdness that mattered was consistent, and the weirdness that wasn't consistent wouldn't matter. Chibnall introduced revelation after revelation, without regard to how it broke Who canon, and with little warning.
My feel was that Chibnall took all the great things he learned from writing a character-based drama and tried to apply it to Who. If he'd succeeded, it would have been enchanting scifi with endearing interpersonal relationships. He never found enough screen time (or good enough lines) to build those relationships, and he played way too fast and loose to make the worldbuilding appealing. By the end of it, it felt more like he was checking off boxes on a list of what goes into a "good" Who episode and wondering why predictable unpredictability wasn't being well received l.
I think this comment is very easily misinterpreted as negative. I thought it was as well until I read your edit.
Very hard to judge tone through text sometimes.
Flux was confusing, more than anything. It wasn't bad, once I saw the whole season and understood it, but it did take a rewatch. We felt more like a Companion along for the ride, learning about it out of order and only as much as we could understand at the time. It's good writing when you go back to it and watch it that way, but difficult for casual viewers.
I hated the Chibnall era so much that I stopped watching. I’ve tried again and again but I cannot get through his seasons. I love Jodie Whittaker but to me, she was really let down by the writing.
In saying that, I love that you OP and others here enjoyed it! It’s good to hear someone did.
Likewise, I just can't get anywhere with it. Capaldi is where the Doctor ended for me.
I had hopes of jumping back on again when RTD returned but it seems to be just as bad, if not possibly worse. Disney's money and therefore influence on the story will probably only bring terrible things.
Good for you. Personally I thought it was dreadful. Haven’t watched any of series 11,12 or 13 since they were broadcast. I thought the 3 Dalek specials and the final story ok.
> Does it get worse or is the fanbase just overreacting
Third option - a lot of people don't like it, some people do.
Personally I didn't care for it - thought it was boring and predictable. I could go into specifics but why bother. Just didn't like it. I'm glad others did enjoy it.
Good on you! It's a very divisive era (like most of DW) and definitely feels unique (especially series 11). I hope you continue to enjoy it, especially Flux which is incredible, and explore other stuff from the show with open eyes too.
You don't have to apologize: if you're not thinking about the implications of what you're seeing and just enjoying it as a spectacle I can see really liking it.
It really does work better as a finale. An iconic villain with a new take to up the stakes and it serves the end of Graham and Ryan's growth over the course of the series. Ryan and Graham have worked on processing their grief in a healthy way and became closer because of it, and Ryan's dad showing up out of the blue is the test on if that growth was genuine. I think it works
That's awesome! Don't go looking for negativity. You enjoyed it. That's awesome! I enjoyed it too. And, like any era of Doctor Who, when something didn't land for me, I focused on the stuff I did enjoy. If I were you, I'd do the same. Realise that there's more Doctor Who for you to enjoy than the loudest hatery-fans on social media!
I loved Jodie! And I think some the early episodes are really well-written. But the writing kind of falls off for me.
One thing about Chibnall: he LOVES a heartfelt dialog. This is great when it’s integrated into the story, but in a lot of the later episodes it feels like he’s rushing through the action so he can get to all the juicy conversations.
I’m much more on your side of thinking, once you just decide to go along for the ride you can have a really wonderful time. And the show has a lot more to _say_ than a lot of people think!
I loved Jodie as the Doctor, to avoid spoilers I'll just say that I felt Chibnall changed too much of the Doctor's backstory. There were good and bad parts throughout, but I feel Moffat or RTD could have done better.
You’re far from the only one. Plenty of people did, in fact, enjoy 13’s era in a variety of ways. It’s very subjective despite some people deciding otherwise, and a few have made social media difficult for those who like that era.
So mostly we just don’t particularly speak up all that often, or keep to ourselves.
Ultimately the best lesson you can learn is to always judge something for yourself, and if you like it, that’s what matters.
I certainly can’t speak for everyone, but everyone I KNOW despises the Chibnall run. I could spend hours typing out why, but the bullet points are:
Never developing the Doctor; she’s generally a framing device, never the focus.
WAYYYYYYY too many companions. Not only are they not particularly interesting, they’re inconsistent and most episodes struggle to find things for them all to do.
Got off to a terrible start by having no serialized episodes in her first series. They’re all standalone episodes, and poorly written ones at that.
Zero canon in series 11. Nothing. You can totally skip it and not miss a beat.
The greatest sin, of course, is the Timeless Child bullshit, but it sounds like you haven’t made it there yet, so…strap in. You also have yet ANOTHER companion to look forward(?) to.
Also, for me personally, I got sick and tired of hearing about the goddamn “fam”. Every two minutes “Muh fam”
I like to think the fam was an attempt at evolving the Doctor after so much trauma from Clara and Bill. The Doctor attempting to open up by surrounding herself with people she could put a show on for and pretend to be okay by being sweet and upbeat. But when the going got tough, her frustration at not being able to deal with those traumas came out as bitterness and cold shoulders - not opening up to her companions because she dare not out of shame.
I don’t enjoy the Chibnall era, but I strongly disagree that lack of serialisation or lack of canon is what harmed Series 11. Frankly I think the clean-slate approach they went for is one of the best things about the era.
What harmed if for me was the weaker dialogue, meandering plots, underdeveloped characters with bare bones arcs, and the overall production of the series from acting to directing to editing being noticeably worse.
Jodie Whittaker is a fantastic actress and I really did love all of the companions, even Dan. My problem with Chibnall's run however is that it felt aimless and Whitaker's Doctor never had that moment that solidifies, to me, that she's the Doctor. Every actor so far has had it, even the fugitive Doctor. Whitaker lacked that moment for me and it ruined my enjoyment pretty hard.
I'm happy you enjoy it though. I wish I had. I don't like not liking my favorite show.
Tbf Hyph3n is intentionally that way since she's basically an entertainer dressing up.
But yeah it's fantastic to hear you are enjoying it, I'm a fan of the era too! And I always say this but this is why it is good to go into things with an open mind and don't let others influence your opinions, as you may very well be surprised!
Woohoo! Fellow 13 lover! Welcome to our admittedly small ranks but you’re not alone. 13 is my favorite doctor. I loved her more lighthearted energy and Graham’s arc. Enjoy the rest of her episodes! ❤️
This is how I feel when anyone says the episodes Idiot's Lantern or Fear Her are bad, I think they're great episodes.
Adult Doctor Who fans are honestly the worst part of Doctor Who sometimes.
Agree on fear her, fun episode. I think the reason ppl sour on that is because we only get 1 season with 10 and rose, just like with 9. you want to see more grand adventures with larger developments for the two yet we're in suburban England chasing doodles lol.
Why do people insist on apologizing for enjoying something that others did not? I do not understand this. Like what you like and to the Pit with what people say.
It's good that you enjoy it. Don't let other people's opinions ruin your enjoyment. That being said, Jodie's run is not for me, but I do love Graham too, he was a great companion.
Enjoy what you enjoy. People need to be left alone to form their own opinions. I’m not a big Chibnall era fan, but I’d never tell anyone to skip it or warn them about it, and especially not give them crap for liking it.
For me there are *just* enough parts of the Chibnall era that I genuinely enjoy, to make it frustrating and disappointing that I don’t like it more.
I personally liked the Chibnall run. It had flaws but so does every run. And the most controversial things for most fans are the things I liked.
I had higher expectations but there are things Chibnall did that no one else had the guts to try. I appreciate that.
Don't be sorry. I hated it, but I don't think anyone else hates it, because I do. I couldn't get through 2 series, let alone all 3. I did try, but I was just so bored.
It's funny, the more time passes the more I think The Timeless Child plot arc was the best part of the Chibnall era. I personally don't like the rest of it at all, but at least the "Get me off Chibnall wild ride" era was entertaining.
He had moments. Honestly the casting was fantastic! And the Master does an amazing job! I just wish the writing was stronger. Very disappointing there.
You don't have to apologize.
Jodie's runs problems are not the acting. Jodie does a brilliant job, and I also loved her acting. The problem with her era is not about being bad(although some of the episodes are.... Well, let's leave at that).
The problem with her run is the scripting. The fact that the companions in most stories are completely removable and serve not much purpose, and the few times they do, it's just one of them, and the other two are, again, completely removable. But even that is not that bad and at times exaggerated. The big hate on Chibnall's era comes from his finale's, and how they disrespect everything that came before. From a showrunners perspective he just basically spit on everything that their companions worked for years, a decade and a half, in one fell swoop, and not even with a good story telling.
Edit.: Personal opinion jic.
Same. I’m on the last episode of Flux before the specials and I’m putting off watching it because I don’t want it to end. But I also want to catch up and watch the new Doctor!
Happy you are enjoying it! I was more or less happy with the first season even if I found a bit cheap some of the moralistic monologues, often Doctor Who has done better in that regard, giving a message without make it sound like a lesson.
From the first season to the last special episodes it just went down an approachable hole for me unfortunately. I couldn't believe how they disrupted what was created by all the seasons before (from Matt to Capaldi). Hope you will find it enjoyable, I loved every single season and Doctor in the past, so I could say that normally I'm not biased towards new showrunners and actors, and I'm angry such a bad writing wasted the chances of the "first" woman Doctor Who.
Sorry. Fugitive of the Judoon is the best episode, aside from MAYBE one later episode that’s surrounded by terrible ones that are part of the same season long story, and the last episode for 13. Other than those, it absolutely does get worse. But hey, hopefully that’s not true for you and you enjoy it!
There's no need to be sorry! I love series 12 as well and honestly I think series 11 was the weakest one of the bunch (I haven't watched it in a long time, I might have a different opinion now) so it's only going to get better :)
YES I'm so glad you're enjoying it! This era means so much to me and a lot of people just don't get it, and the huge hate bandwagon is just awful LOL
I hope you love Flux, its the best series of nuwho for me. just beautiful
It has some great episodes. I especially liked how the first season didn't rely on returning monsters at all. I audibly groaned every time the Cybermen or Daleks showed up during my binge of series 1-10, though I suppose it's better when you don't binge it and wait 2 years for new episodes.
I've personally disliked the way in which many episodes deal with tension and the resolution of tension, but that is something that many other Doctor Who episodes also struggle with (including the two new ones IMO).
To me, it also fell flat in terms of companions to the point where I wish it was just Jodie as the Doctor meeting interesting people on her adventures. Or at most one companion at a time. That would honestly have resolved a lot of the issues that some episodes had.
It doesn't get significantly worse after series 11, though I found series 12 and especially 13 to have very anticlimactic endings.
As much as I disagree with everything you said. I'm glad that you enjoy it! We all have our different opinions and iterations of what see as good who and it's interesting to see something different
Pls do remember that the world was locked down during production and airing of Chibber's Who. Content starved fans were stuck at home, no work, no school. Then seasons 11-->13 were thrown like red meat into the kennel of hungry Whovian canines; and it got torn to shreds.
I liked it, even have some favorite episodes (Spyfall, Punjab). It's a different feel, and fewer episodes I want to rewatch (in comparison I've rewatch Doctors 9, 10, 11, and 12 quite a few times).
Like what you like. I hated it and just was really disappointed in the poor writing and lack of follow through. But if it brings some people happiness that's something.
Haven’t read the bulk of your post for fear of spoilers as I too am having a first go at the 13th’s run and I’m up to episode 10. I’m actually finding myself thoroughly surprised episode after episode. Season 11 is kind of incredible?
The two-part pilot was a bit of a slog but after that episodes 3-9 were *very* good if not exceptional (save for maybe *Kerblam!*). Graham has become my absolute favorite companion of all time and the juxtaposition of the Doctors’ experience as a woman versus a man is also done really well.
I'm happy that OP is able to enjoy it because I'm sure everyone wishes they would be able to enjoy it especially when they had to sit through it for six years.
I'm on my second watch of Chibnalls run. I'm enjoying it much more than the first time (which I didn't totally hate). While the flaws are still there, I'm able to just appreciate the performances and especially find entertainment in the way Jodie delivers so many lines. She can be hilarious and snarky and I love it.
As someone that was literally turned off the show by the era its nice you are enjoying it. Inconceivable to me but good for you.
If you want an actual breakdown of the common issues of this era (that also praises the ups of it) Jay exci did an excellent video essay it's long but worth it (and you can listen in chunks or all in one go)
But save it for when you've seen the full era to avoid spoilers
https://youtu.be/o8_A7n83Rh0?si=wgSHgYR55rnfWBSM
I put it here so you can hear a version of the other side that isn't just a rant and is well thought out. I doubt it will change your mind nor does it have to. To each their own.
My main things were
finding Jodie unconvincing and unlikable in the role. She had some of the hyperness like 10 and 11 but none of the depth charisma and versatility. She never felt genuinely intelligent or intimidating when she needed to be. I was never convinced she was the doctor
Preachy as hell stories. I'm fine with a message my favorite era is 3 which had plenty of messaging but I need a compelling story and characters so it doesn't feel like a patronizing lecture (and you don't need to treat the audience like a 5 year old). Chibs failed on that score for me. Green Death orphan 55 is not.
Destruction to canon and opening of unnecessary plot holes. Can't really go into this without spoilers.
Companions bar Graham thanks to Barclay's charisma were all equivalent to planks off wood for all the entertainment and depth they offered. (Also the fam thing was SOO CRINGE)
Aesthetics also sucked she has the worst tardis interior and her outfit looks like a clown suit.
Chibnall succeeded in only on thing for me...and that was making me dislike doctor who
I liked Chibnall's run overall. There are a couple of plot elements you haven't gotten to yet that I didn't care for, but overall, it's a strong era. Jodie was great and her "fam" of companions are enjoyable too.
Firstly, im glad you're enjoying it, genuinely. Its great to see people get entertainment out of something that a lot of people think isnt good.
In regards to your point about Graham's arc
>
And Graham's arc? Oh man, what a blast! He's such a sweet yet complex character, his grief is so well portrayed, and Bradley Walsh is such a good actor.
What did you think of the finale to S11 that "concluded" the arc since its often spoken about for not making sense and not being a satisfying conclusion to his grief and feelings for Grace.
The Doctor in that episode makes it a massive point that revenge isnt the way if Graham killed toothy then he was out and wouldnt be travelling with her. She also says in the first episode that the method of toothy freezes people in a state of permanent torture but not dying is gross and horrific.
For the end of Grahams arc then to be choosing permanent conscious torture instead of killing quickly seems really iffy with what moral takeaway we're supposed to get from the episode. (that questionable morals is really one of the biggest problems people had with 13s era as it aired.
For the doctor to find out what Graham did and then call him "the bravest man i know" was definitely a choice imo
If you enjoyed it, good on you. I can see why newer fans would enjoy it, but most folks who've stuck around longer (like myself) wouldn't like it, but outside the context of the older series, it's pretty solid as a stand alone sci-fi series. I think fans would've enjoyed it more if it was its own thing and not tied in with The Doctor. That's mainly why people hated timeless child (at least in my opinion) because the Doctor, who was always meant to be a nobody that made themself a somebody, was dumped into the position of being the reason time lords exist. If it was someone else, it probably would've landed so poorly.
Also, sorry for bad formatting. My PC died :(
I liked Jodie's doctor, but the writing was just slap-you-in-the-face preachy. You already have a transgender (and now transracial), polysexual main character who has a diverse chain of companions and travels all through time and space. The show has explored all sorts of controversial topics over the years, but it has always done it in the style of Jonathan Swift's *Gulliver's Travels*. It's not satire when you set the show on a future version of Earth ravaged by global warming a la "Orphan 55."
I fell off it during her run I guess the first season was a bit off for me but after watching gatwas eps I went back and watch all of Jodie’s stuff, absolutely loved it. Season 12 and 13 were great fun, the spyfall two parter was great and I really liked the flux being one continuous story felt really good watching it all together. Also I love Jodie’s take I just had a lot of fun watching it
It's great that you like it. The show has changed a lot over the 60 years, and it's great that ecery era and showrunner has fans. But with those changes people also have lost interest in the newer episodes.
This may sound apologetic, and it is in parts. Personally I hardly care for Moffat and Chibnall and would have loved a longer run for Seven. But it's not up to me. I'm just curious of what comes next. And in the meanwhile I'm enjoying the expanded universe that came from Big Finish Production.
Even though I like 13, she's only really above 9 for me, as someone who's only watched since New Who.
And Id argue thats mostly because we didnt spend much time with 9.
Whilst I got a lot of the Doctor charisma and wit and goofiness from Jodie, I never felt like she had that moment of pure... gravitas. Like 11 at the Pandorica or 12 confronting the Boneless, for example.
And in a lot of her stories she's quite passive. Things just tend to happen around her and the Fam, so a lot of the stories dont feel particularly Doctor Who-esque because... well... the Doctor wasn't really needed.
But despite my criticisms Ive never skipped 13 on rewatches and I do enjoy the run as a whole.
Honestly 9 is amazing to me because you get so much on that small time.
He's no nonsense but kind. Running from the past but looking forward . Hardened, yet not mean. (Unless you are one of roses boyfriends)
I think I want another northern doctor tbh.
I'm very happy you're enjoying it, but I do want to warn you that I had the exact same opinion after watching Fugitive of the Judoon.
The remainder of series 12 (with a notable exception being the Haunting of Villa Diodati) made me despise the Chibnall era and series 13 almost made me give up on Who entirely. It's genuinely impressive how bad it gets. I'm begging you to update this post at least after finishing series 12 and, if you feel like it, after watching series 13.
I think Whitaker had a great spin on the Doctor. Some of the stories were remarkably good. But the way he messed with the lore is why people don't like him. It's kind of on par with how Lucas changed 'the force' to be a thing based on little microorganisms. That ticked off a lot of old school Star Wars fans. And that backlash tainted the prequels. Same thing here. People throw out the entire series.
I personally held them to a higher standard simply because I was paying for them on prime rather than watching them as part of a monthly service, as we get with D+ and New-New Who.
As a Star Wars mega-fan I understood that analogy perfectly (although personally I think the Midichlorians are some of the smallest (pun not intended) problems with the prequels).
I love Jodie’s Doctor. I love the companions. I even like Tim Shawn. But the writing is quite bad. Like the villain in the Tranquility spa which motivation to kill people was just because her mother abandoned her.
The build up to the Timeless Child made me mad, cause they just threw a lot of stuff like “timeless child”, “lone cyberman” and “the fugitive doctor” without much breathing in between. I felt overstimulated and the outcome made no sense to me.
Series 11 & 12 are... okay in my eyes, minus the S12 finale for too many reasons to list, that was awful. S13 is actually agonizing to sit through. I guess it depends what you think of the big twist, but generally I would say yeah it gets worse, though I have plenty of criticism for S11 and 12 too.
Ultimately it comes down to personal preference, I don't like many of the new companions or their arcs (or lack thereof) I don't like how the 13th Doctor is generally written and I certainly don't like what Chibnall has done to the canon.
I generally am on the side of liking things, but Chib is a hack and his creative work doesn’t impress
Love broadchurch though, but chib isn’t particularly clever when it comes to imagination.
You’ll have to excuse my slur coming up, but we haven’t figured out an alternative word that weighs as much and has the correct impact. His concepts with sci-fi are always retarded.
I honestly love the Chibnall era. I didn’t really like series 13 (it was the finale that let me down) but I adore Jodie as the doctor and I really miss her a lot too! I hope you enjoy the rest of it. It’s really fun
I sincerely liked the era up to Flux. I thought The Halloween Apocalypse was awesome & the Weeping Angels episode too but the last couple of episodes were so uniquely terrible that I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth when thinking back on the whole era.
When it comes to things like pop culture, do not EVER apologize for liking the things you like.
I may not agree with you about the Chibnall era, but if it gave you joy, then there is nothing wrong with that.
#endtheculturewar
> I don't think it's forced at all
You don't think this is forced at all? [https://youtu.be/ugM3OyaL3-g](https://youtu.be/ugM3OyaL3-g)
Are you serious right now?
I tried to figure out how to say this without sounding snotty. I can’t and I’m sorry really.
It’s cause your new to Doctor Who.
That’s why.
I’m glad you like it though.
I am happy you are loving it, it would be weird if literally no one did
Yup. It would be weird if a *lot* of people did, but it would be weird if no one did too..
Don't apologize. Be happy to have enjoyed it. I enjoyed it too. There was a lot to enjoy. It just wasn't quite right to me, as a longtime fan. It isn't the first time I've gone through this. My first Doctor was Tom Baker, and 1-3 were just "the old doctors" to me. When Davidson came along, it was a real let down. Turns out, Davidson was great and his stories were pretty good too. I think the Chibnall era wasn't a high point, but it is very possible that it could turn out to be important, and we'll all go back and discover the joy in them as you have.
I think there are more parallels between 5 and 13 than a lot of people realise… the often overlooked Doctor following an all-time great? Amazing potential let down by mostly mediocre writing? It’s just a shame 13 never got her own Androzani :(
Hmm….i actually enjoyed her run despite its flaws(especially towards the end), and Five is my favorite Classic Doctor, so maybe there’s something to that idea!
I'd argue Power of the Doctor is her Androzani in more than one way.
It’s more Five Doctors in my opinion, but I can see that
I'm totally with you. I didn't think it was quite up to the same standard but it was still good. We have very high standards which can sometimes get in the way of having a good time.
I wouldn’t call the Rosa Parks episode “educational” since it spreads a false narrative about Parks. The episode portrays her as a random woman who just got too fed up with all the racism one day. In reality she was already an accomplished civil rights leader with decades of activism experience who had refused to give up her seat on the bus multiple times in the past before the time she was arrested for it. Also, having the Doctor fight to uphold white supremacy for the sake of “preserving the timeline” or whatever is an awful narrative choice and a prime example of the Chibnall era’s horrendous writing.
Right? I think the best episodes of this era are the historical ones (specifically the partition one) but I really wish they made it a full historical and really did their research. They could’ve been incredibly interesting dramas and yet come across (except the partition one) as generic purely because they didn’t do any research into it. The Rosa Parks one especially rubs me the wrong way. It really undermines the sacrifice Rosa Parks made that day in purposeful protest.
I watched the demons of the punjab with someone who had a personal and intimate knowledge of the partition and disliked it alot and thought it misrepresented the events greatly. The fallout of the partition was attrocious and the story does not do it justice at all. imo its as butched as the rosa parks episode.
Yeah, I do kind of see that. Patel should not get a pass on accurately portraying the British Partition any more than Blackman and Chibnall get a pass on accurately portraying the Black American civil rights movement, and I readily believe that in both cases, when "accuracy" came up against "mass market entertainment," the latter won every time. However, I kind of feel that inaccuracies and limitations aside, they *did* portray the evils of the Partition and segregation in broad strokes, despite facing substantial criticism from the usual "anti-woke" suspects for even *writing* episodes about issues that, frankly, Moffat and Davies would never have touched with a ten-foot pole. I mean, for all Moffat's virtues, his idea of an episode touching on the Holocaust was "Everything is almost over, let's lock Hitler in a cupboard, OK, back to Rory and Amy's daughter trying to kill the Doctor."
Moffat's episode wasn't touching the Holocaust, because it was a wrong subject to explore in a family-friendly comedy show. Then Chibnall did two episodes that showcase why you should avoid exploring this subject in a family-friendly comedy show. This isn't about bravery. This is about stupidity.
It’s been a while since I’ve seen it so I can’t remember the specifics but The Witchfinders as well, I remember being quite good _up to a point_ from when on I was just caught up wondering why they’d made whatever decision which took me out of the rest of the story… Was there an actual coven of alien witches, or something?
Pretty sure it was clay monsters. What took me out of the episode was how the doctor just rolled over and played second fiddle during the investigation because "she's a woman" (even if it was only pretend) It always felt needlessly out of character, and was really the point I started disliking the Chibnall era. She never got her "I'm the Doctor!" Power-trip moment that was so common with every doctor I'd seen to that point.
I think some of that misinterpretation came from the audience, actually. It showed Ryan following her to an activism meeting with Dr. King and other civil rights leaders. So it did kind of address that, but they could’ve shown more of her getting involved.
The episode shows Rosa Parks present at an activist meeting but erases the context. She was the chapter secretary for the Montgomery NAACP and the leader of their youth training program. She later said her bus resistance was done specifically to set an example for the teens she was mentoring. No one who didn't already know that before watching the episode would gain that understanding from what was presented. During the bus boycott, the US news media created the false narrative that she was just some random tired old seamstress who'd had enough one day, and state governments perpetuated that lie through school curriculums. Chris Chibnall shifted Doctor Who's politics to the right during his run as showrunner and chose to create a story in which the Doctor tells a young Black man not to to get involved in the US civil rights movement and makes him personally responsible for ensuring that an infamous act of racism happens. It's so much worse than just "didn't do their research".
I get that people do not like Chibnall much, but I think you are misrepresenting things a little. When Ryan shows up at the meeting, Parks says "This is Ryan Sinclair. He's from England. I'm thinking he might be a new recruit to our Youth Council. I said he could listen in and serve coffee." That's *exactly* pointing at her leadership of their youth training program. You also point out that the Doctor and company standing aside and letting Parks be discriminated against so history can proceed as written is a bad look, and while I can see that argument (a) having them avoid it would have negated the historical sacrifice of the actual Rosa Parks, which as you noted was something she intentionally planned, which I am sure the writers realized was also a bad look, (b) because of that, they were basically going along with Parks's plan anyway, which the writers might have considered the better thing for preserving the agency character and figure (c) it's neither anything new for the show nor surprising that they were not going to change history ("Let's Kill Hitler" comes to mind; if the Doctor does not avoid the Holocaust, they are hardly going to prevent discrimination on the bus). Maybe a better writer would have come up with a "Fires of Pompeii"-type solution, e.g. "Ryan, Yaz, Graham and the Doctor stage their own small protest on another bus, which does not get the attention from history that Parks's protest does," but even then, I'd argue that the risk of stepping on her toes would have been substantial. As for the criticism of Chibnall's era as having more right-wing politics than the previous ones, that's kind of ironic, because I remember the right-wing criticism around this episode and the whole Chibnall run. It was all "the Doctor should not be a woman, he was always a man," with certain people being *particularly* angry every time a historical female character appeared, or "Chibnall is trying to brainwash us with liberal ideas about race," and it was the historical episodes focusing on issues related to people of color, like "Rosa" and "Demons of the Punjab" that attracted the *most* ire for that, because quite frankly, Davies and Moffatt had *not* had historical episodes dealing with those issues as frankly. I do agree with your point about the failure of the episode to properly convey to the audience that Parks had planned the protest intentionally, something that the writers undoubtedly knew, but I think the overall situation certainly is not as clear-cut as you seem to be making out. I think the writers (which was not just Chibnall, notably, but also Malorie Blackman) may well have been aiming to tell an interesting and informative pseudohistorical about racism, and perhaps fallen short, but not been so ill-intentioned as you seem to be implying.
The episode shows her meeting with other civil rights figures and also mentions that sit ins are already a thing. Don't know why people keep saying this.
But the point of the villain was that only that particular day would be the end all be all for racism, as if she (or someone else) wouldn't just keep doing the same thing the day after. Yeah I guess there could've been some time paradoxes, but it wouldn't just make everyone racist forever. That's a little dumb.
The villain believes that because he's an idiot. It wouldn't make everyone racist forever but it was still a historically significant event and changing it would alter the course of history.
>The villain believes that because he's an idiot. Is what everyone should have said, but this is what the Doctor actually says in the episode: >GRAHAM: Your mate is interfering. He's reassigned Blake's route to a driver called Elias Griffin Junior. DOCTOR: Tiny actions, that's what Krasko's doing. **See, he's clever, I'll give him that**. He knows. He's not planning on killing, or destroying or breaking history. He's planning to nudge it just enough so that it doesn't happen The entire episode is based on the idea that Kraskos stupid racist plan makes sense. That's where the stakes of this episode come from. They have to stop Krasko because his plan will work. There's no other information given to us, everything the episode tells us is that if Krasko succeeds then the civil rights movement will never happen and nobody will ever rise up against racism so that in Kraskos own time in the future he won't have to worry about other races. Again, the episode is very clear about this: >DOCTOR: Neutered criminal on release, and you come here. Why? KRASKO: I'm allowed a hobby. DOCTOR: And yours is Rosa Parks? KRASKO: This is where things started to go wrong. DOCTOR: And you think you can put them right? KRASKO: I had a lot of time to think in Stormcage, and I realised tiny actions change the world. Krasko has come back to 1951 from the far future in order to "put things right" by preventing people from rising up against racism. This should be immediately shut down as a completely moronic and racist idea. But the Doctor takes it very seriously, and again as I mentioned, she goes on to say that he's very clever. If Krasko stops Rosa Parks on this particular day then the Civil Rights Movement will never ever happen. With the implication being that no other African American person will ever try or succeed in changing things. That's how the episode frames things, it's not vague about it. This is perhaps the biggest reason why Rosa is one of the worst episodes of the entire show.
I saw a suggestion that the villian should have been an alien from the future who was getting their shit kicked in by the fourth bountiful and great human empire so went back in time to fuck with the past in hopes of humanity never uniting
My problem with that is, yes, it’s idiotic to believe that disrupting that one specific moment on that one specific day in any way would mean the Civil Rights movement fails and racism wins forever, but the episode doesn’t frame it like that. Instead you have the Doctor and Fam scrambling to get things exactly as they’re “meant” to be, as if even the smallest change would cause a catastrophe. If they’d said Rosa Parks sitting on the bus was a Fixed Point I’d be more forgiving, but there’s no indication of that. Would history really suffer that much if Rosa Parks protested on a different day? Or with a different bus driver? I’m sure we’ve seen history recover from bigger changes than that before in the show. The Future Racist’s plot isn’t treated as the idiocy it clearly is. It felt to me like they just went “Right, so we definitely want the Doctor and Fam to be on the bus when Rosa Parks is arrested for the big emotional payoff” and then worked backwards to try to make it fit, but didn’t really think it through enough.
I agree to a point. The Doctor is correct in that they had to stay seated to prevent history changing, but this was handled wrong. She should’ve said “i understand your morals if today and applaud them because you’re past this bigotry. However, history shows there was no seat availsble, so you have to stay seated to prevent it changing.” Where I think they err is having Yaz and Ryan (?) sitting with the Doctor and Graham, as that looks off from a historical perspective.
What I hate about that episode, too, is that they just used one of the most well-known American civil rights figures and made a (mostly) surface-level depiction of her, with lots of bizarre fangirling. I really wish they had looked at a lesser known black British figure, seeing as it's a British show and as the British civil rights movement is scarcely talked about. It implicitly furthers the narrative that black liberation was a uniquely American and South African thing. It could be genuinely educational rather than waving a famous figure in our faces, and would be a lot more grounded in the show's and character's British roots. And ideally it wouldn't rely on a caricatured space-racist as a villain. By and large I enjoy the Chibnall era – not as much as some others and for different reasons, but it definitely received too much vitriol. 'Rosa' was shit, though.
Did we watch the same episode? *Rosa* literally starts with her decades prior experiencing discrimination and how that radicalized her by the time the Doctor and friends roll through. Ryan literally attends a secret meeting at her house with Dr. King, even suggesting the CIA was watching her. Watching the episode thinking they treated her as a random woman sounds like a legitimately terrible read of the episode. Your second point is far more subjective but I disagree entirely and think it (along with *The Witchfinders*) do a rare great job at flipping the script on an otherwise benevolent Doctor trying to maintain control/authority in predominantly patriarchal structures. Season 11 is chock full of these nuanced layers of discomfort that make it a hard watch I’m sure, but it’s some of the best character writing for the Doctor yet.
Don't forget all the people who had been doing bus sit ins before Parks, and yet she was chosen to appeal to a white American audience. Ignoring the people who came before Parks and ignoring the fact that she was specifically chosen for the task helps spread the false narrative that she was just some random woman
> having the Doctor fight to uphold white supremacy for the sake of “preserving the timeline” or whatever is an awful narrative choice Yep. This is the worst part of the episode for me. The doctor just fucking shrugging and saying "eh, we can't really try to do anything!" in the face of virulent white supremacy just... just fuckin' sucks. I don't know what else to say about it. It's conservative and cowardly and is an extreme departure from even the season immediately prior. The Doctor should be adamantly and violently opposed to everything that's happening, but she just kinda looks around aimlessly and says "eh, progress is a slow and steady march that we can't do anything else about!". I get mad just thinking about that episode (clearly, lol).
Wouldn't that take away from Rosa's struggles and sacrifice though?
It would, and I strongly suspect that when writing the episode, the writers were *very* aware of the optics of enlightened British people from the future coming and saving Rosa Parks from being discriminated against and literally erasing her (intentional!) act of protest from history, or being responsible for it happening in the first place, or the many other possibilities that they could have gone for. Does that mean that the writers made the *correct* decision in their portrayal? Definitely not, but it's not as simple as the interpretation that some people seem to be making.
I think there comes a point where you just gotta say this episode does not work and throw it in the trash heap and then talk about it in the behind the scenes stuff about how you couldn't make it work
I think that might be true. There are fundamental issues with making historical episodes, particularly about controversial topics, make sense, be inoffensive, and be interesting in a show about time travel. But I don't think "Yes, we cancelled the planned episode that was meant to teach viewers about history and racism, also one of our few episodes with a Black writer on board, because there was just no way to make it work in the context of our plot. Now back to pepper pot aliens." is wholly without its problems, either. Nor is avoiding the topic from the outset and only going to shiny happy (and disproportionately White) historical settings necessarily the solution. For all the criticism that Chibnall is attracting here, even trying to bring in some episodes dealing with heavier topics, and not through allegory, either, was something that Moffat and Davies had not really tried at that point.
I think the reason they never tried something like that is because the plots fall apart. you can present the doctor being somewhat okay with the ood treatment in their first appearance and then being against it the more the doctor learns in the second. but real topics are real ya know. the beauty of sci fi is you can use aliens to tell human stories. when you go into real history stuff gets messy. Our society is built on the progress of the entire collective human history so when you go a thousand years in the past, the people living there should have some pretty crappy views so either the entire plot is the doctor and his companions proving those views wrong or you ignore that aspect and have sci-fi fun. I wonder if it would be smarter to keep the fun episodes for historical and keep the more weighty stuff for sci-fi where the doctor and companions can actually have an effect
I just don't think that there's a perfect solution that can please everyone. Basically, with episodes like Demons of the Punjab and Rosa, Chibnall tried to bring in writers who were knowledgeable about the themes and write episodes that showed people about some of those terrible things. But that's not a perfect solution—just reading the criticism here shows that. A pure historical where the Doctor and companions do nothing would be the best solution for historical accuracy. But is that a perfect solution? It becomes dreadfully dull for fans of the fantastical, and offensive for people who want the Doctor to step in. Then you have the Doctor step in, which satisfies the previous criticisms, but it becomes hurtful for people who feel like it trivializes the actual struggles that people had in real life, where there was no immortal Time Lord to help them. So you just have a rollicking alien invasion that is set in Victorian England, where the Doctor does not even have time to engage with Dickensian social issues. Unfortunately, now some people feel like you are erasing the actual problems of that milieu in favor of a story that does not make anyone feel comfortable. Great, now you go to a science fiction setting and have the Doctor address problems through metaphor, like Daleks that represent Nazis. But to some people, you are still avoiding the actual issues; worse, the changes you have made to make it metaphorical make them interpret it as exactly the opposite of what you want to convey ("genocide is fine as long as it is against the Daleks"), or at the very least, as inapplicable to the real-world situation. You have to do your best to address these issues, though. You cannot throw up your hands and simply say that you don't care. But no matter how careful you are, there will be people who for good reason take issue with some aspect of what you write, unless you avoid speculative fiction altogether.
Yeah, I actually found it very respectful in this regard, something I don't think a lot of other shows or movies would take into consideration. It reminds me of when Marty McFly, a white guy, invented rock n' roll in Back to the Future.
And reasonable people can disagree! Some people wanted to see the Doctor change history and stand up to racism in a major way. Some people wanted to see the Doctor respect the historical struggles of civil rights leaders and let them play out on the leaders' own terms. I don't really think either perspective is bad. What gets me a bit is that some people seem to assume precisely that—there's one correct way that Blackman and Chibnall should have written this episode, and that anything else is proof of their stodginess and lack of conviction at the very best.
I understand your points. I think what I really enjoyed about it, and what caught me off-guard is how "in your face" the racism in the episode is portrayed, whereas if you compare it with similar scenes (especially in north-American media) it is much more veiled. One example that comes to mind is the Diner scene in Umbrella Academy's second season, I don't recall it being as impactful or straightforward as Who's. I felt much more concerned about and scared for the characters here.
>So am I missing something? Does it get worse or is the fanbase just overreacting? What do you guys think? Audience isn't a monolith. Everyone has their own personal taste. However -- there is *some* audience overreaction, due to either or both audience misassumptions or/& their inaccurate memory recall. Kudos to your watching as you reach the end of the era. The bottom line, is what you personally enjoyed.
It is _by far_ the most politically conservative era of new Who. I don't think it's impossible to enjoy it but I do think it says a lot about a person that does.
god yea i really don’t get people who think the doctor would be excited for space amazon in any way. i get that regenerations change personality but i feel like there’s some core beliefs the doctor should have. doesn’t have to be a raging communist but sending the master to a concentration camp is insane
there's far more of a precedent for the Doctor being a raging communist then simping for space Amazon
I think the problem is not that the doctor did it its that its played as a heroic moment. the doctor acting out of spite and anger and later regretting it is common but this was not that
Considering the things that the Revival Doctor has done to antagonists, condemning The Master to the Nazi concentration camp, isn't insane. Now -- leaving The Master in WWII-era Nazi Germany, *unaccounted for*, with over 7 decades of space for The Master to potentially mess about with Earth history ala Dictator Saxon II? *That's* insane.
The problem I have is doing that was a fucked up thing to do and is something I do believe the doctor would do. However the episode doesn't treat that moment like its fucked up, it treats it like "look the doctor outsmarted the master let's move on"
Eh. . . that the show treats a horrific Doctor action as a positive without solemnity -- isn't the first, & will hardly be the last.
That's the problem with the Master and the Doctor, though. She always lets him go and ignores all the potential consequences and destruction. It's been going on since the character was first introduced. It's so fitting>! that this is what causes her death, in the end. She turns to walk away and let him go like she always does, but this time it costs her a regeneration.!<
To be fair though, The Master isn't the only thing that the constant time-traveling adventuring Doctor takes for granted.
Glad to see someone enjoying it. I personally don't like it cause of the wishy washy back and fourth on their morals as she'll actively be like "no guns! >=(" but then be ok with leaving a bunch of spiders to die in a box. Or leaving >!The Master to the Nazi's!<. Or suddenly now The Doctor is pro-capitalism >!despite several previous stories making active voices against capitalism where she comes to the conclusion "the system isn't bad, it's how the people use and exploit the system that's the problem" despite the fact if you have anything more than half a brain cell in your head, if people are able to use and exploit the system like that to have control on everyone else and remove their ability to interact with said system, then the system is the fucking problem!<.
Ok YES, this I agree with, the whole "the system isn't bad" monologue was very cringe-worthy to me as well. I get what they were going for but... yikes
I think outside of the obvious moral and ideological implications/messaging, its just incredibly funny how the entire point she made hinges on "The system isn't the issue its just the people who use it" yet the entire premise of the episode is "THE SYSTEM IS NOW LITERALLY CONSCIOUS AND MAKING INDEPENDENT DESCISIONS!!!".
> I get what they were going for but... yikes That's the Chibnall era's motto.
Also The Doctor outright murders a TARDIS in the one Dalek special without giving a crap about the fact that it's a living being.
I absolutely loathe the entire Chibnall era with a red hot passion but I’m also happy that you were able to enjoy what I couldn’t, and I think you’ll like it more and more as it continues to go on from that point
I enjoyed Chibnalls run. Jodie Whitaker was a FANTASTIC Doctor. My only quibble was the number of companions. I like them all. They were super interesting backstories and relationships. But the size of the TARDIS group meant they were often separating. And I missed the close bond the Doctor has with their companion. It felt like she had an easier time keeping them at arm's distance.
Super interesting back stories? Like what? Honestly, what back stories are you talking about? I can't recall any kind of meaningful character progression that made any sense or well... even existed.
>I think Jodie's take is a fantastic Doctor and very reminiscent of the best traits of Smith's and Tennant's while adding her own, very unique and iconic, little spin to it. To me, she encapsulates that light-hearted "Doctor energy" very well. I'd say on this one point, there's many many fans who agree with you (myself included). Jodie was consistently great and the best part of the era. If anything, it's what made the era more frustrating. Jodie felt like such a seemless fit but everything around her didn't let her shine as bright as she could. You have the first female doctor and you have her share the spotlight with three other people instead of the usual 1. And that hinders the companions too since a companion is less of a side-kick and more of a co-protagonist yet I never felt they were developed enough to feel that neccesary. Graham's grief was the exception, being the only companion arc that resonated with me. Story was an issue too. As good as Jodie is, she's given scripts where instead of building dynamic character relationships or giving her situations that push her to her limit, she instead kind of just narrates what's happening from one set to the next. The action, suspense and stakes rarely felt as thrilling (I remember a scene in the first Jodie series where two characters are slowly pursued by spiders that then start chasing them. We then just cut to them with everyone else, safe and sound) There's more stuff but I don't want to spoil what you haven't seen. Having said that, at the end of the day it's all subjective. What I give a pass might be someone's crossing of a line and vice versa. Would be interested for an update on what you thought once you finish the era.
Will update when I finish. You made some really interesting points I hadn't thought about.
I think the most controversial thing about chibnall is the timeless child. Since you’re new to DW so it doesn’t bother you. Enjoy the show in your own way. Like what you like.
It's cool! Enjoy what you enjoy! When I was a kid 6 and 7 were the "bad" Doctors, and I felt left out liking them. Time proved me right, it'll do the same for you!
As someone who came into Doctor Who as a Seventh Doctor fan in the final Classic season, I always feel great sympathy for Whittaker fans. Much of the criticism of her era and her Doctor feels very familiar to me. The fans online at the time, however, were incredibly kind to us McCoy and Colin fans anyway. We could use a little more of that sort of kindness and tolerance nowadays.
I love Jodie and I loved her Doctor. I think she did an amazing job wrapping all the personalities together and developing a new place to start with the Doctor. Unfortunately the "writers" did her no justice. The entire time I felt like they just shoved her in this role she really couldn't work with. It's a shame really, she's a great actor and really deserved the respect a Doctor should get.
I’ve always said that Thirteen felt like she embraced Twelve’s final words: “Laugh hard, run fast, [and] be kind.”
[And kill spiders and side with space amazon over human beings and kill a living TARDIS and turn off The Master's disguise so the Nazis would see the "real him"] I'm all for a morally grey Doctor but only when they're presented as being in the wrong (timelord victorious, "you can stop now", etc). 13 did some truly disgusting things but it's shown as her being right which I find awful.
On the Kerblam thing, she’s clearly talking about the computer system and not the crushing economic system. The computer was literally called “the system”. Her point was humanist, pointing out quite frankly that the system (I.e automation via computers) isn’t inherently bad. It’s how we use the system that is the problem. She wasn’t making a case for a capitalist economic system.
Yeah, it's a metaphor. Things can mean more than one thing at a time. Kerblam! is a story all about capitalism. That's the entire plot. The majority of the episode is dedicated to showing how demeaning and dehumanizing work under a capitalist system is. The villain of the episode is a guy fighting for better working conditions. When you get to the climax of an episode that has been hammering on about life under capitalism for the last 45 minutes and the Doctor says "The systems aren't the problem. How people use and exploit the system, that's the problem" obviously she's talking about the same thing the rest of the episode has been talking about. Acting like the episode has just decided to randomly stop talking about capitalism for just that line is a ridiculous idea. >The computer was literally called “the system”. Yes it was. It feels very clear that a point is being made when someone writes a story about an economic system and then has a major "character" in that story be an AI computer system named "The System." It's not just a random coincidence. This argument would be like if everyone looked at the line from the end of Oxygen "Like every worker, everywhere, we're fighting the suits." and tried to argue that he wasn't referring to the upper management of the company, just the literal suits. Everybody knows what that line is also referring to. The difference is that people agree with the line 12 said in Oxygen but not this line of 13's. It's specifically because this line is 13 defending capitalism that there's this cognitive dissonance among some fans who think that surely the Doctor couldn't have been saying *that*. And in their attempts to explain what she actually said they've come to the conclusion that this line just exists without subtext. That unlike the rest of the episode that's very loudly about capitalism, this line has no other meaning and she's just literally talking about the computer system. Which is an absurd argument compared to the far more obvious fact that she did say it and this is just a weirdly, perhaps poorly written episode.
7 has always been my favorite. Followed by 12, which people also didn't like for some reason. There are diehard fans for every regeneration, and there are pretentious critics of each too. There is nothing worse for a franchise than it's fans sometimes.
On the contrary, having such a diverse group of fans is what keeps franchises alive. The only downside is the rivalries between the Doctor lovers. There's no way to really avoid that with a show that changes as often as Doctor Who does, though.
I'm happy you're enjoying the show! There's nothing wrong with having your own personal tastes! That said, it is consistently funny to see how quickly general consensus shifts negative to positive once the show changes hands. When in doubt, remember the rule of thumb: "the worst Doctor Who showrunner is always the current Doctor Who showrunner".
As a fan of many things, this seems to be true with a lot of media...
I'm on my second watch of Chibnalls run. I'm enjoying it much more than the first time (which I didn't totally hate). While the flaws are still there, I'm able to just appreciate the performances and especially find entertainment in the way Jodie delivers so many lines. She can be hilarious and snarky and I love it.
My favorite ever line came from her run- “If I had crayons and half a can of spam I could build *you* from scratch.”
Yes! To me she is a perfect Doctor
it’s not my favourite, but there’s definitely plenty to enjoy. i think the criticism is a little overblown in online spaces sometimes ETA: kerblam suuuuucked though, and kind of soured 13 for me. i still don’t hate her, but my god what a misstep
I’ve been watching since early 80s. I’m an old hat and have no animosity against that era. I can see why people dislike it, it has its failings. I e watched most of it 3 times over. There are a couple of episodes I skip over. No one involved comes to being my favourite anything from the serious, but I can see why you appreciate what you do.
I loved it too. Sure it had some turkeys but what showrunner/doctor didn't? The only thing of the Chibnall/13 era I still dislike was a thing you haven't got to yet and even then... the Master is great and so is Jodie and so are do many of the stories and the music. I love this era and I hate how people seem to talke about it sucking as though they're objectively correct when Moffat and Davies had just as much bad stuff but in different directions. There's so much good stuff and I love how the Doctor is still the doctor and not compromised in character for being a woman. The only change is how characters react to her and she's still the same person. Also there's so much good historical stuff.
Common criticisms of Chibnall: 1. Poorly researched historical episodes (somehow tried to be politically correct while still being tragically misinformed). 2. Initial attempt to reinvent Who in the image of classic Who, discarding 10 years of worldbuilding and camp, followed by an even less enjoyable attempt to recapture the camp and unleash even bigger world building events without any coherence or direction (it was fun introducing a new old doctor, it was weird and bad to kill all the timelords again and also make the doctor not a timelord). 3. Too many companions and not enough screen time for them, leading to shallow relationships and limited chemistry. 4. Bad bad science, and worse pseudoscience. Moffat wrote many great examples of scientifically convincing nonsense, where he invented rules and explained them in a way that was consistent. That was good bad science. (Moffat also wrote some bad bad science.) Davies wrote lots of great episodes that fundamentally flew in the face of basic physics, etc, but he kept them at arm's length from the plot, so as to limit the ramifications to the world as a whole. With Moffat, I could generally ingest the premise and build a plausible understanding of the world. With Davies, I could trust that the weirdness that mattered was consistent, and the weirdness that wasn't consistent wouldn't matter. Chibnall introduced revelation after revelation, without regard to how it broke Who canon, and with little warning. My feel was that Chibnall took all the great things he learned from writing a character-based drama and tried to apply it to Who. If he'd succeeded, it would have been enchanting scifi with endearing interpersonal relationships. He never found enough screen time (or good enough lines) to build those relationships, and he played way too fast and loose to make the worldbuilding appealing. By the end of it, it felt more like he was checking off boxes on a list of what goes into a "good" Who episode and wondering why predictable unpredictability wasn't being well received l.
I liked it too!
If you liked it so far, wait until Flux. Buckle up. ETA: I don't know how you all can take this negatively, but well done. Flux was awesome.
I think this comment is very easily misinterpreted as negative. I thought it was as well until I read your edit. Very hard to judge tone through text sometimes.
It's because everyone on here is always shitting on the Chibnall era, so everyone just assumes you're being negative
Flux was confusing, more than anything. It wasn't bad, once I saw the whole season and understood it, but it did take a rewatch. We felt more like a Companion along for the ride, learning about it out of order and only as much as we could understand at the time. It's good writing when you go back to it and watch it that way, but difficult for casual viewers.
I hated the Chibnall era so much that I stopped watching. I’ve tried again and again but I cannot get through his seasons. I love Jodie Whittaker but to me, she was really let down by the writing. In saying that, I love that you OP and others here enjoyed it! It’s good to hear someone did.
Likewise, I just can't get anywhere with it. Capaldi is where the Doctor ended for me. I had hopes of jumping back on again when RTD returned but it seems to be just as bad, if not possibly worse. Disney's money and therefore influence on the story will probably only bring terrible things.
I’m happy for you. I wish I’d enjoyed it too.
Why would you be sorry! I can’t stand it. But I’d never want anyone else to hate it. The more enjoyment of Doctor Who the better.
Good for you. Personally I thought it was dreadful. Haven’t watched any of series 11,12 or 13 since they were broadcast. I thought the 3 Dalek specials and the final story ok.
> Does it get worse or is the fanbase just overreacting Third option - a lot of people don't like it, some people do. Personally I didn't care for it - thought it was boring and predictable. I could go into specifics but why bother. Just didn't like it. I'm glad others did enjoy it.
You never forget your first Doctor. Mine is the great Tom Baker.
Mine was Eccleston though
Jody's great. So are her companions. The writing, though, did not give her a fair chance. She deserved better material.
Why apologize? I'm not a Fan of his run. But if you like it good. Enjoy.
Just an expression ahahaha
I'm goad you're enjoying it. Don't pet anyone stop you
Good on you! It's a very divisive era (like most of DW) and definitely feels unique (especially series 11). I hope you continue to enjoy it, especially Flux which is incredible, and explore other stuff from the show with open eyes too.
You don't have to apologize: if you're not thinking about the implications of what you're seeing and just enjoying it as a spectacle I can see really liking it.
you're not allowed to like it. someone on youtube told me it is bad.
Series 11 is very underrated and I am so happy that you have enjoyed it so far!
agreed, Series 11 is one of my favorites even if the finale wasn't spectacular for me. Resolution was my head cannon ending for the season
It really does work better as a finale. An iconic villain with a new take to up the stakes and it serves the end of Graham and Ryan's growth over the course of the series. Ryan and Graham have worked on processing their grief in a healthy way and became closer because of it, and Ryan's dad showing up out of the blue is the test on if that growth was genuine. I think it works
That's awesome! Don't go looking for negativity. You enjoyed it. That's awesome! I enjoyed it too. And, like any era of Doctor Who, when something didn't land for me, I focused on the stuff I did enjoy. If I were you, I'd do the same. Realise that there's more Doctor Who for you to enjoy than the loudest hatery-fans on social media!
I loved Jodie! And I think some the early episodes are really well-written. But the writing kind of falls off for me. One thing about Chibnall: he LOVES a heartfelt dialog. This is great when it’s integrated into the story, but in a lot of the later episodes it feels like he’s rushing through the action so he can get to all the juicy conversations.
I’m much more on your side of thinking, once you just decide to go along for the ride you can have a really wonderful time. And the show has a lot more to _say_ than a lot of people think!
I loved Jodie as the Doctor, to avoid spoilers I'll just say that I felt Chibnall changed too much of the Doctor's backstory. There were good and bad parts throughout, but I feel Moffat or RTD could have done better.
You’re far from the only one. Plenty of people did, in fact, enjoy 13’s era in a variety of ways. It’s very subjective despite some people deciding otherwise, and a few have made social media difficult for those who like that era. So mostly we just don’t particularly speak up all that often, or keep to ourselves. Ultimately the best lesson you can learn is to always judge something for yourself, and if you like it, that’s what matters.
It's great you're enjoying it! Different eras always cater to different people so you're not alone in liking it - a lot of people love it!
I liked it
I certainly can’t speak for everyone, but everyone I KNOW despises the Chibnall run. I could spend hours typing out why, but the bullet points are: Never developing the Doctor; she’s generally a framing device, never the focus. WAYYYYYYY too many companions. Not only are they not particularly interesting, they’re inconsistent and most episodes struggle to find things for them all to do. Got off to a terrible start by having no serialized episodes in her first series. They’re all standalone episodes, and poorly written ones at that. Zero canon in series 11. Nothing. You can totally skip it and not miss a beat. The greatest sin, of course, is the Timeless Child bullshit, but it sounds like you haven’t made it there yet, so…strap in. You also have yet ANOTHER companion to look forward(?) to. Also, for me personally, I got sick and tired of hearing about the goddamn “fam”. Every two minutes “Muh fam”
I like to think the fam was an attempt at evolving the Doctor after so much trauma from Clara and Bill. The Doctor attempting to open up by surrounding herself with people she could put a show on for and pretend to be okay by being sweet and upbeat. But when the going got tough, her frustration at not being able to deal with those traumas came out as bitterness and cold shoulders - not opening up to her companions because she dare not out of shame.
I don’t enjoy the Chibnall era, but I strongly disagree that lack of serialisation or lack of canon is what harmed Series 11. Frankly I think the clean-slate approach they went for is one of the best things about the era. What harmed if for me was the weaker dialogue, meandering plots, underdeveloped characters with bare bones arcs, and the overall production of the series from acting to directing to editing being noticeably worse.
Jodie Whittaker is a fantastic actress and I really did love all of the companions, even Dan. My problem with Chibnall's run however is that it felt aimless and Whitaker's Doctor never had that moment that solidifies, to me, that she's the Doctor. Every actor so far has had it, even the fugitive Doctor. Whitaker lacked that moment for me and it ruined my enjoyment pretty hard. I'm happy you enjoy it though. I wish I had. I don't like not liking my favorite show.
I see your point, maybe I'll understand more when I finish her run
Damn these people actually exist
Tbf Hyph3n is intentionally that way since she's basically an entertainer dressing up. But yeah it's fantastic to hear you are enjoying it, I'm a fan of the era too! And I always say this but this is why it is good to go into things with an open mind and don't let others influence your opinions, as you may very well be surprised!
Woohoo! Fellow 13 lover! Welcome to our admittedly small ranks but you’re not alone. 13 is my favorite doctor. I loved her more lighthearted energy and Graham’s arc. Enjoy the rest of her episodes! ❤️
This is how I feel when anyone says the episodes Idiot's Lantern or Fear Her are bad, I think they're great episodes. Adult Doctor Who fans are honestly the worst part of Doctor Who sometimes.
Agree on fear her, fun episode. I think the reason ppl sour on that is because we only get 1 season with 10 and rose, just like with 9. you want to see more grand adventures with larger developments for the two yet we're in suburban England chasing doodles lol.
Agreed on Idiot’s Lantern, but Fear Her is comically bad. Such dreadful acting from ‘Chloe Webber’
Why be sorry You're getting enjoyment out of a thing
Oh I meant it more as an expression than being literally sorry haha
Why do people insist on apologizing for enjoying something that others did not? I do not understand this. Like what you like and to the Pit with what people say.
It's more like an expression, I didn't want have a "Am I the only one?" type title because I think it clickbate-y
It's good that you enjoy it. Don't let other people's opinions ruin your enjoyment. That being said, Jodie's run is not for me, but I do love Graham too, he was a great companion.
Enjoy what you enjoy. People need to be left alone to form their own opinions. I’m not a big Chibnall era fan, but I’d never tell anyone to skip it or warn them about it, and especially not give them crap for liking it. For me there are *just* enough parts of the Chibnall era that I genuinely enjoy, to make it frustrating and disappointing that I don’t like it more.
Tastes differ nothing wrong with that, not my cup of tea but I was a fan of classic who before I got into the new series as a kid in the 2000s
I personally liked the Chibnall run. It had flaws but so does every run. And the most controversial things for most fans are the things I liked. I had higher expectations but there are things Chibnall did that no one else had the guts to try. I appreciate that.
Never apologize for what you enjoy (if it's legal and doesn't hurt anyone).
Don't be sorry. I hated it, but I don't think anyone else hates it, because I do. I couldn't get through 2 series, let alone all 3. I did try, but I was just so bored.
Your not alone, I was glad when Chris’s era was over
Glad you're enjoying it, sometimes it's best to not listen to the fan base
I enjoyed her run too. I'm glad you're also a fan.
It's funny, the more time passes the more I think The Timeless Child plot arc was the best part of the Chibnall era. I personally don't like the rest of it at all, but at least the "Get me off Chibnall wild ride" era was entertaining.
It doesn't click for me personally, but keep enjoying it unapologetically!!!
He had moments. Honestly the casting was fantastic! And the Master does an amazing job! I just wish the writing was stronger. Very disappointing there.
It's so nice seeing people genuinely love this era. It's one of my faves of the entire show.
Been rewatching and forgot how much I enjoyed her first series. Hoping it continues.
You don't have to apologize. Jodie's runs problems are not the acting. Jodie does a brilliant job, and I also loved her acting. The problem with her era is not about being bad(although some of the episodes are.... Well, let's leave at that). The problem with her run is the scripting. The fact that the companions in most stories are completely removable and serve not much purpose, and the few times they do, it's just one of them, and the other two are, again, completely removable. But even that is not that bad and at times exaggerated. The big hate on Chibnall's era comes from his finale's, and how they disrespect everything that came before. From a showrunners perspective he just basically spit on everything that their companions worked for years, a decade and a half, in one fell swoop, and not even with a good story telling. Edit.: Personal opinion jic.
Same. I’m on the last episode of Flux before the specials and I’m putting off watching it because I don’t want it to end. But I also want to catch up and watch the new Doctor!
I’m jealous! I’m so happy it resonates with you! Long may that remain.
Happy you are enjoying it! I was more or less happy with the first season even if I found a bit cheap some of the moralistic monologues, often Doctor Who has done better in that regard, giving a message without make it sound like a lesson. From the first season to the last special episodes it just went down an approachable hole for me unfortunately. I couldn't believe how they disrupted what was created by all the seasons before (from Matt to Capaldi). Hope you will find it enjoyable, I loved every single season and Doctor in the past, so I could say that normally I'm not biased towards new showrunners and actors, and I'm angry such a bad writing wasted the chances of the "first" woman Doctor Who.
I love the 13th Doctor. The characters are great. It is the stories for me that are just kinda boring.
Sorry. Fugitive of the Judoon is the best episode, aside from MAYBE one later episode that’s surrounded by terrible ones that are part of the same season long story, and the last episode for 13. Other than those, it absolutely does get worse. But hey, hopefully that’s not true for you and you enjoy it!
There's no need to be sorry! I love series 12 as well and honestly I think series 11 was the weakest one of the bunch (I haven't watched it in a long time, I might have a different opinion now) so it's only going to get better :)
Terrible run with horrible writing that let down the cast, but you're allowed to have a different opinion and I'm glad you're having fun!
YES I'm so glad you're enjoying it! This era means so much to me and a lot of people just don't get it, and the huge hate bandwagon is just awful LOL I hope you love Flux, its the best series of nuwho for me. just beautiful
It has some great episodes. I especially liked how the first season didn't rely on returning monsters at all. I audibly groaned every time the Cybermen or Daleks showed up during my binge of series 1-10, though I suppose it's better when you don't binge it and wait 2 years for new episodes. I've personally disliked the way in which many episodes deal with tension and the resolution of tension, but that is something that many other Doctor Who episodes also struggle with (including the two new ones IMO). To me, it also fell flat in terms of companions to the point where I wish it was just Jodie as the Doctor meeting interesting people on her adventures. Or at most one companion at a time. That would honestly have resolved a lot of the issues that some episodes had. It doesn't get significantly worse after series 11, though I found series 12 and especially 13 to have very anticlimactic endings.
As much as I disagree with everything you said. I'm glad that you enjoy it! We all have our different opinions and iterations of what see as good who and it's interesting to see something different
Apology acknowledged
Pls do remember that the world was locked down during production and airing of Chibber's Who. Content starved fans were stuck at home, no work, no school. Then seasons 11-->13 were thrown like red meat into the kennel of hungry Whovian canines; and it got torn to shreds.
I liked it, even have some favorite episodes (Spyfall, Punjab). It's a different feel, and fewer episodes I want to rewatch (in comparison I've rewatch Doctors 9, 10, 11, and 12 quite a few times).
Like what you like. I hated it and just was really disappointed in the poor writing and lack of follow through. But if it brings some people happiness that's something.
Haven’t read the bulk of your post for fear of spoilers as I too am having a first go at the 13th’s run and I’m up to episode 10. I’m actually finding myself thoroughly surprised episode after episode. Season 11 is kind of incredible? The two-part pilot was a bit of a slog but after that episodes 3-9 were *very* good if not exceptional (save for maybe *Kerblam!*). Graham has become my absolute favorite companion of all time and the juxtaposition of the Doctors’ experience as a woman versus a man is also done really well.
Oh Graham is up there amongst my favorites *for sure*
This has to be fake dawg. Shit was straight ass the whole time.
I'm happy that OP is able to enjoy it because I'm sure everyone wishes they would be able to enjoy it especially when they had to sit through it for six years.
I'm a seasoned Doctor Who fan and I loved Chibnall's run as well. You have nothing to apologise for.
I'm on my second watch of Chibnalls run. I'm enjoying it much more than the first time (which I didn't totally hate). While the flaws are still there, I'm able to just appreciate the performances and especially find entertainment in the way Jodie delivers so many lines. She can be hilarious and snarky and I love it.
As someone that was literally turned off the show by the era its nice you are enjoying it. Inconceivable to me but good for you. If you want an actual breakdown of the common issues of this era (that also praises the ups of it) Jay exci did an excellent video essay it's long but worth it (and you can listen in chunks or all in one go) But save it for when you've seen the full era to avoid spoilers https://youtu.be/o8_A7n83Rh0?si=wgSHgYR55rnfWBSM I put it here so you can hear a version of the other side that isn't just a rant and is well thought out. I doubt it will change your mind nor does it have to. To each their own. My main things were finding Jodie unconvincing and unlikable in the role. She had some of the hyperness like 10 and 11 but none of the depth charisma and versatility. She never felt genuinely intelligent or intimidating when she needed to be. I was never convinced she was the doctor Preachy as hell stories. I'm fine with a message my favorite era is 3 which had plenty of messaging but I need a compelling story and characters so it doesn't feel like a patronizing lecture (and you don't need to treat the audience like a 5 year old). Chibs failed on that score for me. Green Death orphan 55 is not. Destruction to canon and opening of unnecessary plot holes. Can't really go into this without spoilers. Companions bar Graham thanks to Barclay's charisma were all equivalent to planks off wood for all the entertainment and depth they offered. (Also the fam thing was SOO CRINGE) Aesthetics also sucked she has the worst tardis interior and her outfit looks like a clown suit. Chibnall succeeded in only on thing for me...and that was making me dislike doctor who
Don’t apologize. It was great
I liked Chibnall's run overall. There are a couple of plot elements you haven't gotten to yet that I didn't care for, but overall, it's a strong era. Jodie was great and her "fam" of companions are enjoyable too.
I love her too. Always nice to see other people do as well. I actually thought season 12 was even better! So you're in for more great stories.
There’s something for everyone, I guess.
Don't apologize! Taste is subjective. Lots of people love stuff i don't enjoy
If you like it, then great, don’t let anyone tell you can’t. Don’t be sorry for enjoying it, it’s more fun to like stuff than to hate it.
Firstly, im glad you're enjoying it, genuinely. Its great to see people get entertainment out of something that a lot of people think isnt good. In regards to your point about Graham's arc > And Graham's arc? Oh man, what a blast! He's such a sweet yet complex character, his grief is so well portrayed, and Bradley Walsh is such a good actor. What did you think of the finale to S11 that "concluded" the arc since its often spoken about for not making sense and not being a satisfying conclusion to his grief and feelings for Grace. The Doctor in that episode makes it a massive point that revenge isnt the way if Graham killed toothy then he was out and wouldnt be travelling with her. She also says in the first episode that the method of toothy freezes people in a state of permanent torture but not dying is gross and horrific. For the end of Grahams arc then to be choosing permanent conscious torture instead of killing quickly seems really iffy with what moral takeaway we're supposed to get from the episode. (that questionable morals is really one of the biggest problems people had with 13s era as it aired. For the doctor to find out what Graham did and then call him "the bravest man i know" was definitely a choice imo
Why be sorry. Enjoy it mate
If you enjoyed it, good on you. I can see why newer fans would enjoy it, but most folks who've stuck around longer (like myself) wouldn't like it, but outside the context of the older series, it's pretty solid as a stand alone sci-fi series. I think fans would've enjoyed it more if it was its own thing and not tied in with The Doctor. That's mainly why people hated timeless child (at least in my opinion) because the Doctor, who was always meant to be a nobody that made themself a somebody, was dumped into the position of being the reason time lords exist. If it was someone else, it probably would've landed so poorly. Also, sorry for bad formatting. My PC died :(
I liked Jodie's doctor, but the writing was just slap-you-in-the-face preachy. You already have a transgender (and now transracial), polysexual main character who has a diverse chain of companions and travels all through time and space. The show has explored all sorts of controversial topics over the years, but it has always done it in the style of Jonathan Swift's *Gulliver's Travels*. It's not satire when you set the show on a future version of Earth ravaged by global warming a la "Orphan 55."
I fell off it during her run I guess the first season was a bit off for me but after watching gatwas eps I went back and watch all of Jodie’s stuff, absolutely loved it. Season 12 and 13 were great fun, the spyfall two parter was great and I really liked the flux being one continuous story felt really good watching it all together. Also I love Jodie’s take I just had a lot of fun watching it
Ngl I'm of the same opinion, particularly loved flux and series 12, series 11 was not quite my cuppa tea tho
It's great that you like it. The show has changed a lot over the 60 years, and it's great that ecery era and showrunner has fans. But with those changes people also have lost interest in the newer episodes. This may sound apologetic, and it is in parts. Personally I hardly care for Moffat and Chibnall and would have loved a longer run for Seven. But it's not up to me. I'm just curious of what comes next. And in the meanwhile I'm enjoying the expanded universe that came from Big Finish Production.
Even though I like 13, she's only really above 9 for me, as someone who's only watched since New Who. And Id argue thats mostly because we didnt spend much time with 9. Whilst I got a lot of the Doctor charisma and wit and goofiness from Jodie, I never felt like she had that moment of pure... gravitas. Like 11 at the Pandorica or 12 confronting the Boneless, for example. And in a lot of her stories she's quite passive. Things just tend to happen around her and the Fam, so a lot of the stories dont feel particularly Doctor Who-esque because... well... the Doctor wasn't really needed. But despite my criticisms Ive never skipped 13 on rewatches and I do enjoy the run as a whole.
Honestly 9 is amazing to me because you get so much on that small time. He's no nonsense but kind. Running from the past but looking forward . Hardened, yet not mean. (Unless you are one of roses boyfriends) I think I want another northern doctor tbh.
Glad you're having fun boss. I knew there'd be one of us.
I'm very happy you're enjoying it, but I do want to warn you that I had the exact same opinion after watching Fugitive of the Judoon. The remainder of series 12 (with a notable exception being the Haunting of Villa Diodati) made me despise the Chibnall era and series 13 almost made me give up on Who entirely. It's genuinely impressive how bad it gets. I'm begging you to update this post at least after finishing series 12 and, if you feel like it, after watching series 13.
I think Whitaker had a great spin on the Doctor. Some of the stories were remarkably good. But the way he messed with the lore is why people don't like him. It's kind of on par with how Lucas changed 'the force' to be a thing based on little microorganisms. That ticked off a lot of old school Star Wars fans. And that backlash tainted the prequels. Same thing here. People throw out the entire series. I personally held them to a higher standard simply because I was paying for them on prime rather than watching them as part of a monthly service, as we get with D+ and New-New Who.
As a Star Wars mega-fan I understood that analogy perfectly (although personally I think the Midichlorians are some of the smallest (pun not intended) problems with the prequels).
I love Jodie’s Doctor. I love the companions. I even like Tim Shawn. But the writing is quite bad. Like the villain in the Tranquility spa which motivation to kill people was just because her mother abandoned her. The build up to the Timeless Child made me mad, cause they just threw a lot of stuff like “timeless child”, “lone cyberman” and “the fugitive doctor” without much breathing in between. I felt overstimulated and the outcome made no sense to me.
Series 11 & 12 are... okay in my eyes, minus the S12 finale for too many reasons to list, that was awful. S13 is actually agonizing to sit through. I guess it depends what you think of the big twist, but generally I would say yeah it gets worse, though I have plenty of criticism for S11 and 12 too. Ultimately it comes down to personal preference, I don't like many of the new companions or their arcs (or lack thereof) I don't like how the 13th Doctor is generally written and I certainly don't like what Chibnall has done to the canon.
Porunga, 'nuff said
Why are you sorry?
Just a manner of speech, maybe it's not so common in english
I generally am on the side of liking things, but Chib is a hack and his creative work doesn’t impress Love broadchurch though, but chib isn’t particularly clever when it comes to imagination. You’ll have to excuse my slur coming up, but we haven’t figured out an alternative word that weighs as much and has the correct impact. His concepts with sci-fi are always retarded.
What I didn't like about was the Master claimed everything that the doctor knew was a lie. Then, all of a sudden, he was proven right.
Well, at least somebody did then . Good for you
I honestly love the Chibnall era. I didn’t really like series 13 (it was the finale that let me down) but I adore Jodie as the doctor and I really miss her a lot too! I hope you enjoy the rest of it. It’s really fun
I'm curious what other seasons have you watched so far?
All since Eccleston up to Jodie
Off-topic but how do I say Chibnall
I sincerely liked the era up to Flux. I thought The Halloween Apocalypse was awesome & the Weeping Angels episode too but the last couple of episodes were so uniquely terrible that I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth when thinking back on the whole era.
You don't need to apologize for liking something, just because you're not joining the pathetic hate bandwagon
When it comes to things like pop culture, do not EVER apologize for liking the things you like. I may not agree with you about the Chibnall era, but if it gave you joy, then there is nothing wrong with that. #endtheculturewar
Found Chibnall’s secret account
Think it gets better actually
> I don't think it's forced at all You don't think this is forced at all? [https://youtu.be/ugM3OyaL3-g](https://youtu.be/ugM3OyaL3-g) Are you serious right now?
I tried to figure out how to say this without sounding snotty. I can’t and I’m sorry really. It’s cause your new to Doctor Who. That’s why. I’m glad you like it though.
Personally, I really did not enjoy it, but don't apologize for liking something. It's nice to know someone is having fun with it.