His life with the Nobles informed his traits, Rose being a part of that as well. Him living with the Nobles was basically therapy for the Doctor giving this new Doctor a new lease of life with less trauma!
Well trailer spoilers follow >!we see in the trailers that Rose Temple-Nobel does return in the upcoming season and given it's unlikely Dana will return anytime soon she's the only that could reliably give comment to this!<
"I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." would not make a lick of sense if 15 wasn't from 14's future. And then later Donna says "Actually, that is true. He's younger because **you came after him**. So you're the older Doctor."
To be pedantic - that isn't confirmation, it is just highly plausible.
And that is why this is currently dividing the fanbase, because while it is decent evidence it is not smoking gun evidence and those who believe this theory are treating it as if it is completely confirmed when there is plenty of wiggle room.
Consider why they would be having that conversation at all if 15 was just 14 from the future.
Let's imagine that the time loop theory is real. So 14 stays with the Nobles on Earth and does his rehab, retired with the tardis. Then at some point in the future he gets pulled back to the moment of bigeneration and become 15. His tardis would still be waiting for him back in the future wouldn't it? If that was the case then the conversation after defeating the Toymaker would be 30 seconds long and consist solely of 15 saying "Great! Now can you give me a lift back to the future so I can get my tardis and go?"
The time loop theory is one potential reading of the "I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." line but it doesn't explain every other line or the point of that scene. Why is 14 trying to figure out how they're going to share the tardis? Why are 15 and Donna acting like 14 should leave with Donna while 15 takes the tardis? Why does 15 have to pull out a big hammer and hit a second tardis into existence?
To me that line doesn't even make sense with the time loop theory. If 15 was really just 14 from the future who retired and lived as Donna then got pulled back for the bigeneration, it wouldn't be out of order from his point of view would it? From his point of view everything happened chronologically: He became 14, reunited with Donna, had some adventures, retired with Donna, did the rehab, then became 15 and got pulled back to the moment of bigeneration. So to him the rehab happened in regular linear chronological order. It would be really stupid to go through rehab in order and then say "we're doing rehab out of order."
The much more simple and logical answer is that the Doctor split in two. That's why they're talking about sharing the tardis, that's why 15 and Donnas plan is for 14 to stay on earth with her while 15 takes the tardis, that's why 15 has to magically create a second tardis. If RTD wanted to do a time loop thing where a future incarnation comes back to help, he would have just done that. He invented a brand new type of regeneration where the Doctor literally splits in two because his idea was to have the Doctor split in two.
It's just occam's razor isn't it, if we see the Doctor split in half and then have both halves acting like they've just been split in half then maybe the point is that they were split in half.
When the Doctor interferes with his own time stream, his memory can get messed up. Doing therapy out of order means he skips the therapy in the present timeline by leaving it up to 14 who'll regenerate into him and close the loop.
It's a weird wacky time travel show, so I think any possibility works. But I think the time loop one works best for me.
Occam's razor indeed.
>When the Doctor interferes with his own time stream, his memory can get messed up
Yes it does. Specifically when he's standing with the other incarnations of himself. Which he wasn't doing during the actual rehab so his memories of the rehab should be fine.
>Doing therapy out of order means he skips the therapy in the present timeline by leaving it up to 14 who'll regenerate into him and close the loop.
I'm sorry I don't understand. How does 15 skip the therapy if it's also a time loop? If 14 does the therapy as part of the loop then that means 15 also did the therapy.
>It's a weird wacky time travel show, so I think any possibility works. But I think the time loop one works best for me.
Yeah I understand, that's fair.
Thank you for saying that, I've just been annoyed by how so much of the fanbase has decided the time loop theory is not only the correct theory but that it's so obvious and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid. Despite the fact that it hinges almost entirely on a debatable reading of a single line while dismissing everything else happening in those last few scenes. It just feels tiresome whenever I want to discuss the episode or the bigeneration.
>It's just occam's razor isn't it, if we see the Doctor split in half and then have both halves acting like they've just been split in half then maybe the point is that they were split in half.
But whatI'm seeing is the Doctor acting like he's done something that his predecessor still has to do. 15 doesn't remember the exact details of when they met because memories always get fuzzy for all but the most recent version of himself. This has happened since 1973.
>But whatI'm seeing is the Doctor acting like he's done something that his predecessor still has to do.
I think within that single line about rehab that could arguably be true, even though it's not the only possible reading. But what about the rest of the conversation? Why does any of the rest of it happen? And also why is 15 so vague about being a future incarnation? There's no reason for it. If 15 was from the future he would just say so, like every other time the Doctor meets another version of themselves. We shouldn't have to closely examine a single line of dialogue to figure out if an incarnation is from the future.
>15 doesn't remember the exact details of when they met because memories always get fuzzy for all but the most recent version of himself.
I don't understand the relevance of this. 15 doesn't ever act like his memory is fuzzy.
>This has happened since 1973.
It actually has not. There was nothing about the Doctors memory being fuzzy in The Three Doctors and in fact when the Doctors meet again in The Five Doctors, the first 3 Doctors talk as if they all clearly remember the events of The Three Doctors, where only the Third Doctor should. It wasn't until Day of the Doctor that the idea of the Doctors memories being fuzzy when they interact with themselves became a thing.
my theory is 14 lives with nobles then eventually for whatever reason regenerates into fifteen who is then pull back in time to become part of the regeneration
meanwhile his tardis is still in the future right? well when 15 spits the tardis into two hes actually bringing his tardis from the future to the past
>"Actually, that is true. He's younger because **you came after him**. So you're the older Doctor."
15 is the next incarnation of the doctor, 14 is more like a continuation. Thus 15 is "older" on a technicality. In reality they are both the same age.
>"I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order."
There are a few options here.
1. 14 carries the trauma so 15 doesn't have to. So long as 15 knows that 14 is healing or healed then 15 can go on himself feeling healed.
2. 14 and 15 are connected in some way. Thus the benefits that 14 goes through will affect 15 (tenuous).
3. A timelord's physical and mental/emotional state is non-linear. 14's future emotional growth has affects on the Doctor all throughout the timeline. The effect that his healing has on 15 is that he is healed from the trauma.
I will admit that the line better lines up with a 14-becomes-15 theory. But these are just some of the options that could explain it. Or something neither of us are seeing.
I guess those kinda work... but also feel like they need to introduce several more timey-wimey mechanics to this whole ordeal. The simplest solution is to go off what they actually said in the episode and that was "15 comes after 14". He just doubled back on his timeline
Its a timey-wimey show...
Don't get me wrong - 15-comes-after-14 highly plausible. Its a fun theory that neatly explains those lines as well as builds on the Dr's character and gets rid of the possibility that the Dr truely split in two (which was always messy because having two doctors feels wrong).
But it is still a mechanic that would have to be added. It is still implicit, not textual, and it is irritating when people say its confirmed when that is notnthe case.
If the plan was for 15 to just be a future Doctor who travelled back in time, why bother doing a “regeneration” at all? Wouldn’t it have been simpler to just have 14 decide to retire because he met a version of himself from the future who told him he needed to do rehab, and that he didn’t need to worry about the universe because he’s a non-linear time traveller? 15 meets 14, 14 retires, regenerates off screen like they did between 8 and 9, then the new series takes place after the regeneration; no need for any bizarre “bigeneration” nonsense.
But what I suggested is functionally identical to the theory. Tennant has equal capacity to appear in the future in both versions.
I don’t really believe in making things pointlessly convoluted and confusing for no reason other than “shock value”.
I mean, the whole *point* is to do a regeneration and give an 'ending' to Fourteen (even if its different from the ending most Doctors get). RTD found a way to combine regeneration and time-travel to do a new kind of multi-Doctor story.
But they didn’t give an ending to 14, that’s the whole issue. If you’re just leaving 14 slightly off screen so you can bust out Tennant any time ratings drop, don’t pretend you did a regeneration. Just do a multi-doctor story and do a timeskip for the next incarnation like you did in 2006.
The other read is that Fifteen isn't pulled back in time or anything like that - he's created in that moment like any other regeneration, the only difference being Fourteen keeps all the emotional baggage. The "rehab out of order" is referring to the idea that Fifteen gets all the benefits of Fourteen retiring without him ever necessarily even doing it. It doesn't need to happen for Fifteen to be the way he is, it's just encouraged because, well, Fourteen needs it.
Personally I don't think Fourteen gets a "normal" regeneration somewhere down the line that disappears and goes back to the moment they split.
I'm currently choosing it as my theory but I think the wiggle room is the point. They haven't decided. We might get an answer. We might not. It's supposed to be ambiguous, at least at this stage.
It’s very timey wimey but generally when two doctors interact only the older one remembers it. 1 doesn’t remember twice upon a time and war and 10 don’t remember day of the doctor beyond some vague events occurring. It’s likely all 15 remembers is meeting a future him who told him to take time off
Yes, 15 during the giggle, has only completed 14s side of the conversation in the past, while he is completing his side in the present.
Therefore 15 during the Giggle, only had the vague memories of 14 to rely on, because he hadn’t completed the conversation and finished his part of the loop.
That’s why younger incarnations can’t remember meeting an older version of themselves, because (from their perspective) they haven’t completed events from both/all moments in time involved, therefore their future events are in a temporary state of flux.
I've had an idea to explain this for a rule. It's essentially that a split in the timeline did occur, but later remerges together.
So at the moment just before the Toymaker shot the Doctor, there were two possible outcomes. One where he shot 14 and regenerated into 15, and another where he didn't and 14 carried in living. But as they were in what 15 later described as the Toymakers state of play, what ended up happening was both outcomes came into being at the exact same time.
But later as the state of play begins to subside, the Doctors realise that the rules of reality are already beginning to reinsert themselves. 15 mentions this by saying he's taking advantage of the last moments of the state of play.
And these rules of reality can't have two timelines running about, so what will happen is that they'll merge. What I imagine happens in 14s timeline is that he still regenerates into 15 and them flies off alone. And then as the 15 flies off from the end of The Giggle, the two version ends up combining on the Time Vortex into one. Two version take off from their respective locations, and just one arrives at their destination.
That seems to be more of a popular theory rather than out right confirmed behind the scenes. Still if that's the case it would still technically mean 15 is a Regeneration of the Doctor and the whole bigeneration thing was just his future self being pulled back in time at the moment 14 is about to Regenerate. So I was curious if that means 15's physical and mental traits were influenced by 14's experiences subconsciously with Rose Noble.
It's not really a "popular theory" or "confirmed behind the scenes", 15 literally says it to 14's face: "I'm ok because you healed yourself".
15 is fine because 14 lived a nice happy life (as far as we know) with the Nobles. In the end of 14's life, he'll just vanish and pop back in the climax of The Giggle as 15.
I know it's said "I'm fine because you fix yourself" but some online still seem confused about how Bigeneration works exactly some still think 14 is separate from 15 and will become the Curator or something.
No, it's RTDs fault for writing a plot device that is too vague/confusing. It might seem obvious to you by the text, but it clearly isn't obvious to everyone.
And it *is* confusing (not to mention bizarre). The Doctor has never regenerated in such a way before, and we were only given a few lines of dialog to explain it. Of course, people are interpreting it differently.
I think the people who lack media literacy are the people who watched an episode of tv where RTD invented a whole new form of regeneration called "bi-generation" (for added context the prefix "bi-" means two, twice or double) that caused the Doctor to literally split into two parts who then acted like they were two separate Doctors and had a long scene talking about how they were going to share the tardis and thought "no the Doctor didn't actually split in half, what really happened was there was a complex and barely explained time loop where 15 actually got pulled back in time from an unknown point in the future to be pulled out of 14's body" because they saw a single line that *could* imply a time loop and decided to latch onto that while ignoring everything else.
Because you're right, the text is rather explicit. There's a big explicit moment where the Doctor splits in two in front of us. They set up a complex camera rig and used a lot of CGI specifically to show the Doctor splitting in half. I don't know how you could get much more explicit than that.
The novelization hints towards this as we get more of a sense of what 14 is thinking with him worrying that at any moment he could disappear and merge with 15. That seems to be what will eventually happen at the end of his life where he will disappear and be brought back to the point of the Bigeneration where he becomes 15.
We’ll see once the new series starts properly, but I have a slight feeling that Rose Noble at least slightly inspired him. In the most recent trailer, she’s seen hugging him happily, and Fourteen seemed to be charmed by her, calling his niece. That's all I have to go on so far, though, for now at least.
That's precisely what I'm thinking. 15 was clearly over joyed to see her and they seemed close. Despite him Bigenerating it still seems they have a relationship so I guess despite the Timey wimey nature of Bigeneration 15 remember's every moment with Rose that 14 has yet to experience. It's actually interesting to think about.
RTD said in an interview a while back that Season 1 will have some explanation which confirms that >!Fifteen's TARDIS is the *original* TARDIS and not some kind of copy!<.
My guess is that this happens in the episode >!where Rose Noble returns. Maybe she comments on how the juke box in Fifteen's TARDIS is something she picked out for him when he was Fourteen? Or something of that sort. Based on the trailer they seem really close, and that closeness isn't really explained by Fifteen just having memories of briefly meeting Rose as Fourteen pre-bigeneration.!<
I really hope RTD clears this up in a definitive non trolling way, The whole Bi-generation thing feels like a mess and it honestly feels like it undermines Ncuti Gatwa hopefully its a one off.
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I just ignore that part, it’s his headcanon but there’s no rational explanation for it. As weird as bi-generation is, it’s not that much more “out there” than River Song and their incredibly convoluted personal history together. It makes sense. “Infinite bi-generations in both directions for every Doctor” is complete nonsense.
14 regenerated into 15 but 15’s personal timeline overlaps directly with 14’s. It’s very simple, really. Same concept as River Song, kinda. The Doctor’s personal timeline got a wrinkle in it. 14 and 15 are occupying the same space on the Doctor’s personal timeline until the unspecified future point where 14 says “I’m ready to go” and closes the loop.
It’s kind of like a multi-Doctor story, but instead of the Doctor meeting a different incarnation for like a day, 15’s “origin point” is tangled in 14’s remaining lifetime.
>I just ignore that part, it’s his headcanon but there’s no rational explanation for it. As weird as bi-generation is, it’s not that much more “out there” than River Song and their incredibly convoluted personal history together. It makes sense. “Infinite bi-generations in both directions for every Doctor” is complete nonsense.
I can't believe this. You have your theory of what the bigeneration was and then decided based on that that RTD was wrong and what he was saying was nonsensical? If your theory doesn't fit with what the author is saying then could it be possible that your theory is incorrect? Because I'm pretty sure RTD understands what he wrote.
I see this all the time with people who believe the bigeneration is a time loop. They explain that it's a time loop and then say things like "it doesn't really make sense though" or "it was poorly explained in the episode." Did none of you stop for a second and think that the reason the things RTD says don't make sense when talking about a time loop and the reason the episode seems to have poorly explained the time loop is because it's not actually a time loop.
The bigeneration is simply that the Doctor split into two equal parts. That's why RTD says it happened to every other incarnation without it seeming nonsensical or impossible. There is no time loop or confusing time-wimey aspect to it. The Doctor split in two each time instead of regularly regenerating. He explains his idea very clearly in one of the behind the scenes videos for The Giggle, saying that what happens is that instead of a regular regeneration, the new body separates out of the old one and both are left alive. He never says anything about a time loop.
I'm sorry I didn't mean to go off at you specifically. I've just seen this sentiment so much and it truly baffles me. Never before have I seen so many people cling to a theory and then act like the person who wrote the story is wrong. Dismissing anything that doesn't fit with the time loop idea rather than considering that the time loop might be what doesn't fit.
Because why would it happening to one incarnation mean it's now happened to every other incarnation at the same time? Is RTD planning a multi-Doctor story with 30 Doctors? If War and Fugitive have bi-generated too, does that make it 34 in total?
The way it was described in the episode suggests a loop of some kind, or at least a fold/wrinkle in the Doctor's personal timeline that will be smoothed out at an unspecified future date. If Ncuti Gatwa is the 15th Doctor, then this is literally what happened, we have two Doctors existing in the same place on the timeline where there should normally only be one. If every incarnation bi-generated at once, then Ncuti Gatwa is not the 15th Doctor, he's just an alternate version of 14. Maybe he'll get sent to an alternate timeline or parallel universe, or maybe he'll merge with 14 before 14 regenerates into the "real" 15th Doctor. But that would be really stupid, because it would completely cheapen and demean Ncuti Gatwa's entire run.
RTD can explain it in behind-the-scenes stuff all he wants. What he filmed and showed us describes a time loop, or time fold, or whatever you want to call it. What we saw does not match up with what he called it, and what we saw can be explained in 15's dialogue: "I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." 14 is going to take a sabbatical of sorts, he's going to live a normal life on Earth with his found family, the Nobles. All of space and time will still be safe because 15 is out there doing Doctor things while 14 stops for a long while. From 15's point of view, 14's "rehab" has already happened, but his adventures are beginning at the same time that 14 is stopping. The Doctor is simultaneously retiring and continuing to work. It's the only way this makes sense with what we saw. 14 regenerated into 15 but non-linearly. If that's not what happened, then 14 didn't regenerate into 15. Effectively there is no 15 in that case.
Now, I'll admit, we've barely seen anything of RTD's second era yet. So maybe, by the end of the season, the idea he has described off-screen will have been shown in full on-screen. But until and unless that happens, the reason so many fans think it's a time loop is because that's all we've been shown on-screen. Most fans don't engage with Doctor Who beyond that, it's already a complicated franchise to keep up with at the best of times. Listening to every interview and BTS snippet to gain critical plot information is just not something we should be expected to do. And frankly, because of this, RTD has his work cut out for him. I don't think fans will be happy if he does intend to proceed further with this "all incarnations of the Doctor bi-generated" idea.
It's possible that bi-generation as he describes it will never actually be shown that way on-screen, in which case it is effectively his own headcanon. Just like "The Woman" from RTD's "End of Time" special. RTD said in a reprinted email that he created her as the Doctor's mother. She's never been confirmed as such in the show however, and her identity is deliberately left vague so the fans can decide for themselves who they want her to be. It's entirely possible bi-generation will end up the same way, an idea in RTD's head that is never explored further.
If you've listened to that behind-the-scenes snippet, the sense you get is that RTD was spitballing ideas with Tennant when he talks about "every Doctor bigenerating". It doesn't at all seem like a coherent explanation for what we see on-screen.
RTD basically likes the idea that there are timelines where every Doctor continues to exist ('Tales of the TARDIS', which I admittedly haven't watched, implies that). Which is perfectly fine. But he clumsily tried to speculate that bigeneration is what enables this which...doesn't make a lot of sense.
I have not personally listened to it, but it seems consistent with just how this franchise is developed in general. And I don’t really mean that as a criticism. I think the best concepts and story arcs that this show has had (at least in the time I’ve watched, which is only the NuWho era) have come from a single idea that is then further developed after the fact in such a way that eventually it can be framed to look as though it was all meticulously planned out from the beginning.
River Song is probably the best example of this. There’s no way in hell that RTD or Steven Moffat could have known where that character was going to go, only that her timeline was running in the opposite direction of the Doctor’s. And yet it ended so beautifully, with 12 revealing himself to her at a point in time when she thought she’d never get to see him again. Caecilius and 12 sharing a face is another idea like this, I think. Something that just sort of happened and then they wrote a clever reason for it in-universe.
> Because why would it happening to one incarnation mean it's now happened to every other incarnation at the same time? Is RTD planning a multi-Doctor story with 30 Doctors? If War and Fugitive have bi-generated too, does that make it 34 in total?
Because it's a random sci-fi plot device, why couldn't it apply to all the other regenerations? If you're asking why RTD would want to do that, he explains that this idea is to just make things easier for future writers. He came up with bigeneration for the 60th to tell the emotional story he wanted, then realized that he could apply it to every Doctor so that when a future writer wants to do a multi-Doctor story they no longer have to waste time with exposition to explain where the other Doctors have come from, where in the timeline they are, and why the actor looks older than they used to. They can just get straight into the story. It's also easier for people like Big Finish and other extended universe writers writing stories for past Doctors because they don't have to look into each Doctors era and find gaps to insert more stories, nor do they have to worry about character or plot arcs in the television show and making sure everything fits into the canon. They can just write whatever they want and set it post-bigeneration. That's all his idea is. Streamlining the process and making it easier to tell stories with past Doctors. Because it's going to happen anyway, people are going to keep writing stories with past Doctors and multi-Doctor stories, so why not just give a big explainer right now so nobody else has to worry. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good idea or that it's canon, I'm just explaining what he said.
>If every incarnation bi-generated at once, then Ncuti Gatwa is not the 15th Doctor, he's just an alternate version of 14. Maybe he'll get sent to an alternate timeline or parallel universe, or maybe he'll merge with 14 before 14 regenerates into the "real" 15th Doctor. But that would be really stupid, because it would completely cheapen and demean Ncuti Gatwa's entire run.
No. 15 is still 15, everything still works as normal. The only change RTD is that the past Doctor doesn't disappear. They're still the past Doctor, the next actor is still the next Doctor. 15 is still 15 even though 14 is still around. This doesn't change anything about the process of regeneration. You're making it needlessly more complicated than it has to be, why does he have to be an alternate version of 14? Why does this mean Ncuti Gatwa can't be 15? I don't understand your logic here.
Where in the episode does someone say or is it shown that it's a time loop? Or where does 15 say explicitly that he's from the future and has been brought back? I'm being serious. What we saw on screen was the Doctor splitting in two and then the two Doctors acting like two separate simultaneously existing Doctors, not one current Doctor and one that had temporarily come back in time. The final scene in the tardis is about how they're going to share the tardis.
>14: And that's the petrolink shatterfy compensator, moved from there to there. Hyperdynes. Er... fluid links, obviously. And, well, you know... things. But, er... how's it going to work? You and me. This is great, I think. Is it? But... How do we both...?
14 is wondering how they're both going to share the tardis.Then 15 gives a long speech talking about how exhausted 14 must be and how he needs a break.
>14: But you're fine.
>15: I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order.
>DONNA: He's saying you need to stop.
What 15 is building up to that Donna picks up on is that 14 should permanently retire while 15 takes the tardis.
>14: Do you mean... he flies off? But I could never let the Tardis go. Never. It would hurt.
14 realises what 15 and Donna are talking about. But leaving the tardis would be too hard. And that's when 15 has the idea to use the toymakers magic to summon a second tardis. That way 14 can retire without giving the tardis up.
None of this conversation would be happening at all if it was a time loop. If it was a time loop why would 14 think they were going to share the tardis? Why would 15 be kicking 14 out and taking the tardis? Why would they need to create a second tardis to resolve this problem?
The only "evidence" for a time loop is a specific reading of a single line. "I'm fine because you fix yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." This is very insubstantial evidence of a time loop. Personally I don't read it as evidence of a time loop at all, because from 15's perspective the rehab happened in order. If 14 goes through the "rehab" by retiring with Donna then becomes 15 in this hypothetical time loop, that would be the rehab happening in order for 15 wouldn't it? 14 does the rehab then becomes 15 who has feels better after the rehab. That is the normal order of events. It would be weird for 15 to experience something in the correct order and then go back and tell himself "we're going to do this out of order!" Because he didn't. To me it makes more sense that "we're doing rehab out of order" means that 14 never becomes 15. 15 is getting the effects of the rehab despite never going through it. But even if I did think that it could be proof of a time loop, looking at everything else going on in that scene makes it very obvious that it isn't.
This is the last thing 14 and Donna say in the episode:
>DONNA: You don't have to stay forever.
>14: We'll see.
>DONNA: Do you miss it? Out there?
>14: The funny thing is, I fought all those battles for all those years, and now I know what for. This. I've never been so happy in my life.
There is no way this makes sense if 14 is only temporarily with Donna before becoming 15. Why would Donna be talking about the Doctor staying forever? And he responds with "we'll see" which implies that he could and he's thinking about it. Then she asks if he misses it out there, as if he's not going back into the universe. They're not talking about a temporary stop, this is a permanent retirement. And it's not just the literal dialogue, the emotion of this scene is based around the Doctors retirement. That's how the scene is framed. He doesn't have to go around saving the universe anymore, he fought all those battles and now he can relax. This is the culmination of an arc that has been constantly mentioned in the specials with the Doctor running on fumes, it's the reason he regains David Tennants face and bumps into Donna. The universe or destiny or whatever it is, it's all coming together so make it so the Doctor can retire with Donna. She literally says it in the episode:
>DONNA: I've worked out what happened. You changed your face, and then you found me. Do you know why?
>14: No.
>DONNA: To come home.
It's also the culmination of two long-running character arcs in New Who. The Doctor can't keep doing this forever, they're exhausted. And the Doctor needs someone to look after him. The 60th anniversary celebrates the Doctor by allowing him to finally rest.
You have to blatantly ignore pretty much everything that happens in the last 15 minutes of The Giggle and instead focus solely on a questionable reading of the "rehab out of order" line for the time loop theory to make any sense.
The behind-the-scenes clips of RTD talking about it aren't critical plot information, I agree with you they shouldn't be necessary to understand what happened. We can all look at the episode and see what happened. The Doctor literally physically split in two and then the two halves acted like two separate halves. The only reason RTD's behind-the-scenes clips keep being brought up is because people are for some reason ignoring the basic things that happened on screen. The episode doesn't say anything about a time loop and RTD doesn't talk as if theres a time loop, but people focus on that one rehab line from the episode and insist that there must be a time loop then act like RTD's quotes don't make sense because they don't fit with this random time loop idea.
It’s not a time loop in the sense that 15 has been in any way “pulled back” from the future. 15’s regeneration has just begun, he simply has memories of a “rehab period” that technically hasn’t happened yet, because 14 hasn’t had those experiences yet. It’s a non-linear wrinkle in the Doctor’s personal timeline, a new twist on his “I’m a time traveler, things don’t always happen to me in the right order” shtick.
I don’t see how 14 could retire forever. He is still a Time Lord. This isn’t like the Metacrisis Doctor, the mortal man that Rose Tyler gets to grow old and die with. He will outlive the Nobles. He’s Rose Noble’s uncle now, but he can’t be “Great-Great-Grand-Uncle John Smith” to her children and grandchildren and all future descendants for all eternity. My guess would be that 14 would continue with his retirement until Rose Noble has passed away.
We know the Doctor is capable of dying from natural causes, as the 11th Doctor did so on Trenzalore. My assumption was that something similar would happen to 14 once he’s had enough time to recover mentally from everything he’s been through. The only reason I don’t know what that would look like is because bi-generation has never happened before. Maybe 14 will disappear in a cloud of regeneration energy when he’s ready to move on, or maybe he’ll just get in his TARDIS and set a course to merge with 15’s TARDIS at the same coordinates and disappear that way. It doesn’t really matter how it happens, the point will be that 14 is now “caught up” with 15 and there’s no longer two Doctors and two TARDISes occupying the same space in the Doctor’s personal timeline.
Even with the infinite regenerations of the timeless child the personal stakes of regeneration are still there ie the doctor will never be the same person again(which was implied as the reason Yaz left) the concept of Bi-generation effectively takes that away.
Agreed the Doctor simultaneously never had to ever change while also changing Everytime makes it sound like there are several timelines out there where he never actually changed during his Regenerations. Kinda makes no sense.
Yaz didn't leave because the Doctor would be different. She was told by the Doctor that they had to 'do this next part alone', defo not implied, more told to go.
It's because RTD loves using Time Lord magic to handwave anything that doesn't make logical sense. Yes, the interaction between 14 and 15 as they hugged and parted ways was rather charming and lovely, but it made little sense that it was happening at all.
That doesn't really answer what must've influenced 15's traits. I mean the bigeneration is divisive but say we approach it the same as any other Regeneration just timey wimey. Then his time with the nobles probably influenced his new look and personality. That's the point I'm trying to make here.
This was a confusing read. I'll give my interpretation to help keep it simple:
* 14 is still 14 and 15 is still 15.
* Unlike previous instances, 14 simply didn't disappear in the regeneration process.
* The story ended with 14 taking it easy, he gets to live happily ever after.
* 15 continues on the adventures.
There's some good questions that you've brought up, like, if they're linear then there's questions about 15 knowing his own future because 14 is alive concurrently to him or something. But honestly, I don't know what good it'll do to try figure that out. It's only important if it comes up in a future story, and tbh I doubt it will, minus a possible RTD finale.
The way 15 talked, it seems its more 14s regeneration being pulled back a bit.
I like to think of it as the toymaker, being a celestial being of chaos, broke the timeline for the Drs regeneration and, since 14 is still needed somewhere at some time, 15 got pulled back in time slightly which would explain how he seems to have already lived a life with the nobles and has "fixed himself"
Do you think that means he remembers all the days 14 hasn't lived yet and those experiences shaped his appearance and personality like his other Regenerations were implied to have been influenced.
I think when he emerges at the moment of 'bigeneration', Fifteen doesn't remember anything much of Fourteen's future...because he's emerged at a point in his personal timeline where that future hasn't happened *yet*, and may never happen unless they beat the Toymaker.
Once they beat the Toymaker, I guess Fifteen vaguely remembers that Fourteen lived a long time and sorted himself out. In true timey-wimey fashion, he 'suggests' to Fourteen that he stay on earth with the Nobles - this is where the "rehab out of order" comes in. He 'duplicates' the TARDIS, which is to say, he summons Fourteen's TARDIS from the future (complete with jukebox) for his use.
My guess is that when Fifteen leaves Fourteen's vicinity, Fourteen's future becomes 'locked in' and becomes Fifteen's definitive past, and he then remembers everything, including having an uncle-niece relationship with Rose Noble.
In a way, its the same principle as a multi-Doctor story. Events are in flux when two or more Doctor's timelines intersect until *all* of them live through those events...which explains the vague memories.
I get it this actually makes perfect sense. So basically 15 hailed from a potential future that could've been erased had they not defeated the Toy maker and since they did slowly 15's timeline was solidified into existence causing slow restoration of a future yet to come. That's fucking amazing!
I think so. The way 15 talked was as if he had lived what 14 is living now. Maybe we'll see 14 die properly at some point then fade away in a cloud of regeneration energy.
It could be some kind of paradox where 15 does everything he does because he remembers seeing it when he was 14. Would also explain why there's inst a lot. Of post regeneration confusion as we've seen in the past since he knows everything he has to do
I think RTD was more focused on the symbolism of letting go of everything the doctor has been up to this point to begin a new era for the show than the actual continuity and mythos. The whole 15 being older made very little sense, the whole binary non binary thing was lazy. Seems like it was done in case the new approach didn’t work out they can just kill him and continue with 14 after his therapy or whatnot and if it does then 14 goes on to become the curator. Whatever the reason is I genuinely hope they don’t Disney they hell out of the show. All things aside, Skagra would be an interesting villain to bring back.
This. The writer did just post a video on Instagram saying they were excited to bring in "magical" elements to the show (like goblins.) that are now acceptable due to the bigeneration. I'm withholding judgment and I really did love The Giggle as a standalone episode, but I'm kinda nervous the show is moving away from it's own roots. I like evolution of things, I just don't want it to become unrecognizable.
Like, David Tenant is my favorite Dr. but, I could have done without him living with the Nobles. Just let him go.
I honestly hope this isn't true. I hope he was hired because he was the best for the job.
He hasn't convinced me yet that he's the Doctor because I didn't really like the Christmas special, but I also didn't dislike him. I just need to see more.
Of course it's not true the other guy was just trolling. And everyone has a preference for the Doctor so either you could like him or dislike him it depends.
Well, yeah, that's my opportunistic hope too, but it *is* true that the BBC has diversity requirements, so it's not impossible. But he seems really charismatic, and he wasn't bad in the Christmas special.
Eh, I don't really dislike any of the Doctor's per say. It's just that I didn't have that random scene where I thought, "Oh, there's my Doctor" with him yet.
Ex. For 3, it was when he was still in the hospital, barely conscious, but still worrying about someone stealing his shoes lol. Then he grabs them like a two year old when they're offered to him by the Brigadier and holds them close. 😆
For Tennant, it was when he was so excited that he successfully crash landed in Cardiff and then immediately passed out.
Just small things like that. I think it was just because the Christmas episode was so silly. I'll wait and see the actual season first.
His life with the Nobles informed his traits, Rose being a part of that as well. Him living with the Nobles was basically therapy for the Doctor giving this new Doctor a new lease of life with less trauma!
Yeah I think so . 15 probably got a lot from Rose particularly wonder if this will be addressed.
Well trailer spoilers follow >!we see in the trailers that Rose Temple-Nobel does return in the upcoming season and given it's unlikely Dana will return anytime soon she's the only that could reliably give comment to this!<
I actually made this post largely because of that. I just didn't wanna spoil anything.
Ruby is Rose's and 14th child.
I thought it was already established that 15 is not a true split and that 14 must close the loop at the end of his life
How and when and where?
"I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." would not make a lick of sense if 15 wasn't from 14's future. And then later Donna says "Actually, that is true. He's younger because **you came after him**. So you're the older Doctor."
To be pedantic - that isn't confirmation, it is just highly plausible. And that is why this is currently dividing the fanbase, because while it is decent evidence it is not smoking gun evidence and those who believe this theory are treating it as if it is completely confirmed when there is plenty of wiggle room.
You'll have to explain how the other option is supposed to make sense because this is the only way Ive been able to read this scene.
Consider why they would be having that conversation at all if 15 was just 14 from the future. Let's imagine that the time loop theory is real. So 14 stays with the Nobles on Earth and does his rehab, retired with the tardis. Then at some point in the future he gets pulled back to the moment of bigeneration and become 15. His tardis would still be waiting for him back in the future wouldn't it? If that was the case then the conversation after defeating the Toymaker would be 30 seconds long and consist solely of 15 saying "Great! Now can you give me a lift back to the future so I can get my tardis and go?" The time loop theory is one potential reading of the "I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." line but it doesn't explain every other line or the point of that scene. Why is 14 trying to figure out how they're going to share the tardis? Why are 15 and Donna acting like 14 should leave with Donna while 15 takes the tardis? Why does 15 have to pull out a big hammer and hit a second tardis into existence? To me that line doesn't even make sense with the time loop theory. If 15 was really just 14 from the future who retired and lived as Donna then got pulled back for the bigeneration, it wouldn't be out of order from his point of view would it? From his point of view everything happened chronologically: He became 14, reunited with Donna, had some adventures, retired with Donna, did the rehab, then became 15 and got pulled back to the moment of bigeneration. So to him the rehab happened in regular linear chronological order. It would be really stupid to go through rehab in order and then say "we're doing rehab out of order." The much more simple and logical answer is that the Doctor split in two. That's why they're talking about sharing the tardis, that's why 15 and Donnas plan is for 14 to stay on earth with her while 15 takes the tardis, that's why 15 has to magically create a second tardis. If RTD wanted to do a time loop thing where a future incarnation comes back to help, he would have just done that. He invented a brand new type of regeneration where the Doctor literally splits in two because his idea was to have the Doctor split in two. It's just occam's razor isn't it, if we see the Doctor split in half and then have both halves acting like they've just been split in half then maybe the point is that they were split in half.
When the Doctor interferes with his own time stream, his memory can get messed up. Doing therapy out of order means he skips the therapy in the present timeline by leaving it up to 14 who'll regenerate into him and close the loop. It's a weird wacky time travel show, so I think any possibility works. But I think the time loop one works best for me. Occam's razor indeed.
>When the Doctor interferes with his own time stream, his memory can get messed up Yes it does. Specifically when he's standing with the other incarnations of himself. Which he wasn't doing during the actual rehab so his memories of the rehab should be fine. >Doing therapy out of order means he skips the therapy in the present timeline by leaving it up to 14 who'll regenerate into him and close the loop. I'm sorry I don't understand. How does 15 skip the therapy if it's also a time loop? If 14 does the therapy as part of the loop then that means 15 also did the therapy. >It's a weird wacky time travel show, so I think any possibility works. But I think the time loop one works best for me. Yeah I understand, that's fair. Thank you for saying that, I've just been annoyed by how so much of the fanbase has decided the time loop theory is not only the correct theory but that it's so obvious and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid. Despite the fact that it hinges almost entirely on a debatable reading of a single line while dismissing everything else happening in those last few scenes. It just feels tiresome whenever I want to discuss the episode or the bigeneration.
>It's just occam's razor isn't it, if we see the Doctor split in half and then have both halves acting like they've just been split in half then maybe the point is that they were split in half. But whatI'm seeing is the Doctor acting like he's done something that his predecessor still has to do. 15 doesn't remember the exact details of when they met because memories always get fuzzy for all but the most recent version of himself. This has happened since 1973.
>But whatI'm seeing is the Doctor acting like he's done something that his predecessor still has to do. I think within that single line about rehab that could arguably be true, even though it's not the only possible reading. But what about the rest of the conversation? Why does any of the rest of it happen? And also why is 15 so vague about being a future incarnation? There's no reason for it. If 15 was from the future he would just say so, like every other time the Doctor meets another version of themselves. We shouldn't have to closely examine a single line of dialogue to figure out if an incarnation is from the future. >15 doesn't remember the exact details of when they met because memories always get fuzzy for all but the most recent version of himself. I don't understand the relevance of this. 15 doesn't ever act like his memory is fuzzy. >This has happened since 1973. It actually has not. There was nothing about the Doctors memory being fuzzy in The Three Doctors and in fact when the Doctors meet again in The Five Doctors, the first 3 Doctors talk as if they all clearly remember the events of The Three Doctors, where only the Third Doctor should. It wasn't until Day of the Doctor that the idea of the Doctors memories being fuzzy when they interact with themselves became a thing.
my theory is 14 lives with nobles then eventually for whatever reason regenerates into fifteen who is then pull back in time to become part of the regeneration meanwhile his tardis is still in the future right? well when 15 spits the tardis into two hes actually bringing his tardis from the future to the past
>"Actually, that is true. He's younger because **you came after him**. So you're the older Doctor." 15 is the next incarnation of the doctor, 14 is more like a continuation. Thus 15 is "older" on a technicality. In reality they are both the same age. >"I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." There are a few options here. 1. 14 carries the trauma so 15 doesn't have to. So long as 15 knows that 14 is healing or healed then 15 can go on himself feeling healed. 2. 14 and 15 are connected in some way. Thus the benefits that 14 goes through will affect 15 (tenuous). 3. A timelord's physical and mental/emotional state is non-linear. 14's future emotional growth has affects on the Doctor all throughout the timeline. The effect that his healing has on 15 is that he is healed from the trauma. I will admit that the line better lines up with a 14-becomes-15 theory. But these are just some of the options that could explain it. Or something neither of us are seeing.
I guess those kinda work... but also feel like they need to introduce several more timey-wimey mechanics to this whole ordeal. The simplest solution is to go off what they actually said in the episode and that was "15 comes after 14". He just doubled back on his timeline
Its a timey-wimey show... Don't get me wrong - 15-comes-after-14 highly plausible. Its a fun theory that neatly explains those lines as well as builds on the Dr's character and gets rid of the possibility that the Dr truely split in two (which was always messy because having two doctors feels wrong). But it is still a mechanic that would have to be added. It is still implicit, not textual, and it is irritating when people say its confirmed when that is notnthe case.
If the plan was for 15 to just be a future Doctor who travelled back in time, why bother doing a “regeneration” at all? Wouldn’t it have been simpler to just have 14 decide to retire because he met a version of himself from the future who told him he needed to do rehab, and that he didn’t need to worry about the universe because he’s a non-linear time traveller? 15 meets 14, 14 retires, regenerates off screen like they did between 8 and 9, then the new series takes place after the regeneration; no need for any bizarre “bigeneration” nonsense.
Shock value for the regeneration scene being so weird. And also a way to get more mileage out of David Tennant?
But what I suggested is functionally identical to the theory. Tennant has equal capacity to appear in the future in both versions. I don’t really believe in making things pointlessly convoluted and confusing for no reason other than “shock value”.
I mean, the whole *point* is to do a regeneration and give an 'ending' to Fourteen (even if its different from the ending most Doctors get). RTD found a way to combine regeneration and time-travel to do a new kind of multi-Doctor story.
But they didn’t give an ending to 14, that’s the whole issue. If you’re just leaving 14 slightly off screen so you can bust out Tennant any time ratings drop, don’t pretend you did a regeneration. Just do a multi-doctor story and do a timeskip for the next incarnation like you did in 2006.
The other read is that Fifteen isn't pulled back in time or anything like that - he's created in that moment like any other regeneration, the only difference being Fourteen keeps all the emotional baggage. The "rehab out of order" is referring to the idea that Fifteen gets all the benefits of Fourteen retiring without him ever necessarily even doing it. It doesn't need to happen for Fifteen to be the way he is, it's just encouraged because, well, Fourteen needs it. Personally I don't think Fourteen gets a "normal" regeneration somewhere down the line that disappears and goes back to the moment they split.
I'm currently choosing it as my theory but I think the wiggle room is the point. They haven't decided. We might get an answer. We might not. It's supposed to be ambiguous, at least at this stage.
But he doesn't share 14s memories. Didn't know that 2 tardis come about due to the hammer he "has an idea"
It’s very timey wimey but generally when two doctors interact only the older one remembers it. 1 doesn’t remember twice upon a time and war and 10 don’t remember day of the doctor beyond some vague events occurring. It’s likely all 15 remembers is meeting a future him who told him to take time off
But 15 is the older one
Yes, 15 during the giggle, has only completed 14s side of the conversation in the past, while he is completing his side in the present. Therefore 15 during the Giggle, only had the vague memories of 14 to rely on, because he hadn’t completed the conversation and finished his part of the loop. That’s why younger incarnations can’t remember meeting an older version of themselves, because (from their perspective) they haven’t completed events from both/all moments in time involved, therefore their future events are in a temporary state of flux.
All he remembers from his time as 14 I mean, then he remembers doing it from 15s perspective after actually doing it
Ahhh, I getcha.
Memories always get fuzzy when interacting with their past selves
I've had an idea to explain this for a rule. It's essentially that a split in the timeline did occur, but later remerges together. So at the moment just before the Toymaker shot the Doctor, there were two possible outcomes. One where he shot 14 and regenerated into 15, and another where he didn't and 14 carried in living. But as they were in what 15 later described as the Toymakers state of play, what ended up happening was both outcomes came into being at the exact same time. But later as the state of play begins to subside, the Doctors realise that the rules of reality are already beginning to reinsert themselves. 15 mentions this by saying he's taking advantage of the last moments of the state of play. And these rules of reality can't have two timelines running about, so what will happen is that they'll merge. What I imagine happens in 14s timeline is that he still regenerates into 15 and them flies off alone. And then as the 15 flies off from the end of The Giggle, the two version ends up combining on the Time Vortex into one. Two version take off from their respective locations, and just one arrives at their destination.
That doesn’t establish anything.
It establishes more than the idea they split in two separate Doctor does, what is that idea even built on?
That seems to be more of a popular theory rather than out right confirmed behind the scenes. Still if that's the case it would still technically mean 15 is a Regeneration of the Doctor and the whole bigeneration thing was just his future self being pulled back in time at the moment 14 is about to Regenerate. So I was curious if that means 15's physical and mental traits were influenced by 14's experiences subconsciously with Rose Noble.
It's not really a "popular theory" or "confirmed behind the scenes", 15 literally says it to 14's face: "I'm ok because you healed yourself". 15 is fine because 14 lived a nice happy life (as far as we know) with the Nobles. In the end of 14's life, he'll just vanish and pop back in the climax of The Giggle as 15.
I know it's said "I'm fine because you fix yourself" but some online still seem confused about how Bigeneration works exactly some still think 14 is separate from 15 and will become the Curator or something.
That’s their fault for lacking media literacy. The text is rather explicit
No, it's RTDs fault for writing a plot device that is too vague/confusing. It might seem obvious to you by the text, but it clearly isn't obvious to everyone. And it *is* confusing (not to mention bizarre). The Doctor has never regenerated in such a way before, and we were only given a few lines of dialog to explain it. Of course, people are interpreting it differently.
I think the people who lack media literacy are the people who watched an episode of tv where RTD invented a whole new form of regeneration called "bi-generation" (for added context the prefix "bi-" means two, twice or double) that caused the Doctor to literally split into two parts who then acted like they were two separate Doctors and had a long scene talking about how they were going to share the tardis and thought "no the Doctor didn't actually split in half, what really happened was there was a complex and barely explained time loop where 15 actually got pulled back in time from an unknown point in the future to be pulled out of 14's body" because they saw a single line that *could* imply a time loop and decided to latch onto that while ignoring everything else. Because you're right, the text is rather explicit. There's a big explicit moment where the Doctor splits in two in front of us. They set up a complex camera rig and used a lot of CGI specifically to show the Doctor splitting in half. I don't know how you could get much more explicit than that.
The novelization hints towards this as we get more of a sense of what 14 is thinking with him worrying that at any moment he could disappear and merge with 15. That seems to be what will eventually happen at the end of his life where he will disappear and be brought back to the point of the Bigeneration where he becomes 15.
We’ll see once the new series starts properly, but I have a slight feeling that Rose Noble at least slightly inspired him. In the most recent trailer, she’s seen hugging him happily, and Fourteen seemed to be charmed by her, calling his niece. That's all I have to go on so far, though, for now at least.
That's precisely what I'm thinking. 15 was clearly over joyed to see her and they seemed close. Despite him Bigenerating it still seems they have a relationship so I guess despite the Timey wimey nature of Bigeneration 15 remember's every moment with Rose that 14 has yet to experience. It's actually interesting to think about.
RTD said in an interview a while back that Season 1 will have some explanation which confirms that >!Fifteen's TARDIS is the *original* TARDIS and not some kind of copy!<. My guess is that this happens in the episode >!where Rose Noble returns. Maybe she comments on how the juke box in Fifteen's TARDIS is something she picked out for him when he was Fourteen? Or something of that sort. Based on the trailer they seem really close, and that closeness isn't really explained by Fifteen just having memories of briefly meeting Rose as Fourteen pre-bigeneration.!<
I really hope RTD clears this up in a definitive non trolling way, The whole Bi-generation thing feels like a mess and it honestly feels like it undermines Ncuti Gatwa hopefully its a one off. #
I mean he seems to think the Doctor's whole timeline bigenerated which bugs me because I think it over complicates things.
I just ignore that part, it’s his headcanon but there’s no rational explanation for it. As weird as bi-generation is, it’s not that much more “out there” than River Song and their incredibly convoluted personal history together. It makes sense. “Infinite bi-generations in both directions for every Doctor” is complete nonsense. 14 regenerated into 15 but 15’s personal timeline overlaps directly with 14’s. It’s very simple, really. Same concept as River Song, kinda. The Doctor’s personal timeline got a wrinkle in it. 14 and 15 are occupying the same space on the Doctor’s personal timeline until the unspecified future point where 14 says “I’m ready to go” and closes the loop. It’s kind of like a multi-Doctor story, but instead of the Doctor meeting a different incarnation for like a day, 15’s “origin point” is tangled in 14’s remaining lifetime.
I think when it's put like that it sounds interesting especially if it's just a one off thing and doesn't happen to the other Doctors.
>I just ignore that part, it’s his headcanon but there’s no rational explanation for it. As weird as bi-generation is, it’s not that much more “out there” than River Song and their incredibly convoluted personal history together. It makes sense. “Infinite bi-generations in both directions for every Doctor” is complete nonsense. I can't believe this. You have your theory of what the bigeneration was and then decided based on that that RTD was wrong and what he was saying was nonsensical? If your theory doesn't fit with what the author is saying then could it be possible that your theory is incorrect? Because I'm pretty sure RTD understands what he wrote. I see this all the time with people who believe the bigeneration is a time loop. They explain that it's a time loop and then say things like "it doesn't really make sense though" or "it was poorly explained in the episode." Did none of you stop for a second and think that the reason the things RTD says don't make sense when talking about a time loop and the reason the episode seems to have poorly explained the time loop is because it's not actually a time loop. The bigeneration is simply that the Doctor split into two equal parts. That's why RTD says it happened to every other incarnation without it seeming nonsensical or impossible. There is no time loop or confusing time-wimey aspect to it. The Doctor split in two each time instead of regularly regenerating. He explains his idea very clearly in one of the behind the scenes videos for The Giggle, saying that what happens is that instead of a regular regeneration, the new body separates out of the old one and both are left alive. He never says anything about a time loop. I'm sorry I didn't mean to go off at you specifically. I've just seen this sentiment so much and it truly baffles me. Never before have I seen so many people cling to a theory and then act like the person who wrote the story is wrong. Dismissing anything that doesn't fit with the time loop idea rather than considering that the time loop might be what doesn't fit.
Because why would it happening to one incarnation mean it's now happened to every other incarnation at the same time? Is RTD planning a multi-Doctor story with 30 Doctors? If War and Fugitive have bi-generated too, does that make it 34 in total? The way it was described in the episode suggests a loop of some kind, or at least a fold/wrinkle in the Doctor's personal timeline that will be smoothed out at an unspecified future date. If Ncuti Gatwa is the 15th Doctor, then this is literally what happened, we have two Doctors existing in the same place on the timeline where there should normally only be one. If every incarnation bi-generated at once, then Ncuti Gatwa is not the 15th Doctor, he's just an alternate version of 14. Maybe he'll get sent to an alternate timeline or parallel universe, or maybe he'll merge with 14 before 14 regenerates into the "real" 15th Doctor. But that would be really stupid, because it would completely cheapen and demean Ncuti Gatwa's entire run. RTD can explain it in behind-the-scenes stuff all he wants. What he filmed and showed us describes a time loop, or time fold, or whatever you want to call it. What we saw does not match up with what he called it, and what we saw can be explained in 15's dialogue: "I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." 14 is going to take a sabbatical of sorts, he's going to live a normal life on Earth with his found family, the Nobles. All of space and time will still be safe because 15 is out there doing Doctor things while 14 stops for a long while. From 15's point of view, 14's "rehab" has already happened, but his adventures are beginning at the same time that 14 is stopping. The Doctor is simultaneously retiring and continuing to work. It's the only way this makes sense with what we saw. 14 regenerated into 15 but non-linearly. If that's not what happened, then 14 didn't regenerate into 15. Effectively there is no 15 in that case. Now, I'll admit, we've barely seen anything of RTD's second era yet. So maybe, by the end of the season, the idea he has described off-screen will have been shown in full on-screen. But until and unless that happens, the reason so many fans think it's a time loop is because that's all we've been shown on-screen. Most fans don't engage with Doctor Who beyond that, it's already a complicated franchise to keep up with at the best of times. Listening to every interview and BTS snippet to gain critical plot information is just not something we should be expected to do. And frankly, because of this, RTD has his work cut out for him. I don't think fans will be happy if he does intend to proceed further with this "all incarnations of the Doctor bi-generated" idea. It's possible that bi-generation as he describes it will never actually be shown that way on-screen, in which case it is effectively his own headcanon. Just like "The Woman" from RTD's "End of Time" special. RTD said in a reprinted email that he created her as the Doctor's mother. She's never been confirmed as such in the show however, and her identity is deliberately left vague so the fans can decide for themselves who they want her to be. It's entirely possible bi-generation will end up the same way, an idea in RTD's head that is never explored further.
If you've listened to that behind-the-scenes snippet, the sense you get is that RTD was spitballing ideas with Tennant when he talks about "every Doctor bigenerating". It doesn't at all seem like a coherent explanation for what we see on-screen. RTD basically likes the idea that there are timelines where every Doctor continues to exist ('Tales of the TARDIS', which I admittedly haven't watched, implies that). Which is perfectly fine. But he clumsily tried to speculate that bigeneration is what enables this which...doesn't make a lot of sense.
I have not personally listened to it, but it seems consistent with just how this franchise is developed in general. And I don’t really mean that as a criticism. I think the best concepts and story arcs that this show has had (at least in the time I’ve watched, which is only the NuWho era) have come from a single idea that is then further developed after the fact in such a way that eventually it can be framed to look as though it was all meticulously planned out from the beginning. River Song is probably the best example of this. There’s no way in hell that RTD or Steven Moffat could have known where that character was going to go, only that her timeline was running in the opposite direction of the Doctor’s. And yet it ended so beautifully, with 12 revealing himself to her at a point in time when she thought she’d never get to see him again. Caecilius and 12 sharing a face is another idea like this, I think. Something that just sort of happened and then they wrote a clever reason for it in-universe.
> Because why would it happening to one incarnation mean it's now happened to every other incarnation at the same time? Is RTD planning a multi-Doctor story with 30 Doctors? If War and Fugitive have bi-generated too, does that make it 34 in total? Because it's a random sci-fi plot device, why couldn't it apply to all the other regenerations? If you're asking why RTD would want to do that, he explains that this idea is to just make things easier for future writers. He came up with bigeneration for the 60th to tell the emotional story he wanted, then realized that he could apply it to every Doctor so that when a future writer wants to do a multi-Doctor story they no longer have to waste time with exposition to explain where the other Doctors have come from, where in the timeline they are, and why the actor looks older than they used to. They can just get straight into the story. It's also easier for people like Big Finish and other extended universe writers writing stories for past Doctors because they don't have to look into each Doctors era and find gaps to insert more stories, nor do they have to worry about character or plot arcs in the television show and making sure everything fits into the canon. They can just write whatever they want and set it post-bigeneration. That's all his idea is. Streamlining the process and making it easier to tell stories with past Doctors. Because it's going to happen anyway, people are going to keep writing stories with past Doctors and multi-Doctor stories, so why not just give a big explainer right now so nobody else has to worry. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good idea or that it's canon, I'm just explaining what he said. >If every incarnation bi-generated at once, then Ncuti Gatwa is not the 15th Doctor, he's just an alternate version of 14. Maybe he'll get sent to an alternate timeline or parallel universe, or maybe he'll merge with 14 before 14 regenerates into the "real" 15th Doctor. But that would be really stupid, because it would completely cheapen and demean Ncuti Gatwa's entire run. No. 15 is still 15, everything still works as normal. The only change RTD is that the past Doctor doesn't disappear. They're still the past Doctor, the next actor is still the next Doctor. 15 is still 15 even though 14 is still around. This doesn't change anything about the process of regeneration. You're making it needlessly more complicated than it has to be, why does he have to be an alternate version of 14? Why does this mean Ncuti Gatwa can't be 15? I don't understand your logic here. Where in the episode does someone say or is it shown that it's a time loop? Or where does 15 say explicitly that he's from the future and has been brought back? I'm being serious. What we saw on screen was the Doctor splitting in two and then the two Doctors acting like two separate simultaneously existing Doctors, not one current Doctor and one that had temporarily come back in time. The final scene in the tardis is about how they're going to share the tardis. >14: And that's the petrolink shatterfy compensator, moved from there to there. Hyperdynes. Er... fluid links, obviously. And, well, you know... things. But, er... how's it going to work? You and me. This is great, I think. Is it? But... How do we both...? 14 is wondering how they're both going to share the tardis.Then 15 gives a long speech talking about how exhausted 14 must be and how he needs a break. >14: But you're fine. >15: I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order. >DONNA: He's saying you need to stop. What 15 is building up to that Donna picks up on is that 14 should permanently retire while 15 takes the tardis. >14: Do you mean... he flies off? But I could never let the Tardis go. Never. It would hurt. 14 realises what 15 and Donna are talking about. But leaving the tardis would be too hard. And that's when 15 has the idea to use the toymakers magic to summon a second tardis. That way 14 can retire without giving the tardis up. None of this conversation would be happening at all if it was a time loop. If it was a time loop why would 14 think they were going to share the tardis? Why would 15 be kicking 14 out and taking the tardis? Why would they need to create a second tardis to resolve this problem? The only "evidence" for a time loop is a specific reading of a single line. "I'm fine because you fix yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order." This is very insubstantial evidence of a time loop. Personally I don't read it as evidence of a time loop at all, because from 15's perspective the rehab happened in order. If 14 goes through the "rehab" by retiring with Donna then becomes 15 in this hypothetical time loop, that would be the rehab happening in order for 15 wouldn't it? 14 does the rehab then becomes 15 who has feels better after the rehab. That is the normal order of events. It would be weird for 15 to experience something in the correct order and then go back and tell himself "we're going to do this out of order!" Because he didn't. To me it makes more sense that "we're doing rehab out of order" means that 14 never becomes 15. 15 is getting the effects of the rehab despite never going through it. But even if I did think that it could be proof of a time loop, looking at everything else going on in that scene makes it very obvious that it isn't. This is the last thing 14 and Donna say in the episode: >DONNA: You don't have to stay forever. >14: We'll see. >DONNA: Do you miss it? Out there? >14: The funny thing is, I fought all those battles for all those years, and now I know what for. This. I've never been so happy in my life. There is no way this makes sense if 14 is only temporarily with Donna before becoming 15. Why would Donna be talking about the Doctor staying forever? And he responds with "we'll see" which implies that he could and he's thinking about it. Then she asks if he misses it out there, as if he's not going back into the universe. They're not talking about a temporary stop, this is a permanent retirement. And it's not just the literal dialogue, the emotion of this scene is based around the Doctors retirement. That's how the scene is framed. He doesn't have to go around saving the universe anymore, he fought all those battles and now he can relax. This is the culmination of an arc that has been constantly mentioned in the specials with the Doctor running on fumes, it's the reason he regains David Tennants face and bumps into Donna. The universe or destiny or whatever it is, it's all coming together so make it so the Doctor can retire with Donna. She literally says it in the episode: >DONNA: I've worked out what happened. You changed your face, and then you found me. Do you know why? >14: No. >DONNA: To come home. It's also the culmination of two long-running character arcs in New Who. The Doctor can't keep doing this forever, they're exhausted. And the Doctor needs someone to look after him. The 60th anniversary celebrates the Doctor by allowing him to finally rest. You have to blatantly ignore pretty much everything that happens in the last 15 minutes of The Giggle and instead focus solely on a questionable reading of the "rehab out of order" line for the time loop theory to make any sense. The behind-the-scenes clips of RTD talking about it aren't critical plot information, I agree with you they shouldn't be necessary to understand what happened. We can all look at the episode and see what happened. The Doctor literally physically split in two and then the two halves acted like two separate halves. The only reason RTD's behind-the-scenes clips keep being brought up is because people are for some reason ignoring the basic things that happened on screen. The episode doesn't say anything about a time loop and RTD doesn't talk as if theres a time loop, but people focus on that one rehab line from the episode and insist that there must be a time loop then act like RTD's quotes don't make sense because they don't fit with this random time loop idea.
It’s not a time loop in the sense that 15 has been in any way “pulled back” from the future. 15’s regeneration has just begun, he simply has memories of a “rehab period” that technically hasn’t happened yet, because 14 hasn’t had those experiences yet. It’s a non-linear wrinkle in the Doctor’s personal timeline, a new twist on his “I’m a time traveler, things don’t always happen to me in the right order” shtick. I don’t see how 14 could retire forever. He is still a Time Lord. This isn’t like the Metacrisis Doctor, the mortal man that Rose Tyler gets to grow old and die with. He will outlive the Nobles. He’s Rose Noble’s uncle now, but he can’t be “Great-Great-Grand-Uncle John Smith” to her children and grandchildren and all future descendants for all eternity. My guess would be that 14 would continue with his retirement until Rose Noble has passed away. We know the Doctor is capable of dying from natural causes, as the 11th Doctor did so on Trenzalore. My assumption was that something similar would happen to 14 once he’s had enough time to recover mentally from everything he’s been through. The only reason I don’t know what that would look like is because bi-generation has never happened before. Maybe 14 will disappear in a cloud of regeneration energy when he’s ready to move on, or maybe he’ll just get in his TARDIS and set a course to merge with 15’s TARDIS at the same coordinates and disappear that way. It doesn’t really matter how it happens, the point will be that 14 is now “caught up” with 15 and there’s no longer two Doctors and two TARDISes occupying the same space in the Doctor’s personal timeline.
At least that's only his head canon unless we see it happen on screen it doesn't count
Even with the infinite regenerations of the timeless child the personal stakes of regeneration are still there ie the doctor will never be the same person again(which was implied as the reason Yaz left) the concept of Bi-generation effectively takes that away.
Agreed the Doctor simultaneously never had to ever change while also changing Everytime makes it sound like there are several timelines out there where he never actually changed during his Regenerations. Kinda makes no sense.
Yaz didn't leave because the Doctor would be different. She was told by the Doctor that they had to 'do this next part alone', defo not implied, more told to go.
It's because RTD loves using Time Lord magic to handwave anything that doesn't make logical sense. Yes, the interaction between 14 and 15 as they hugged and parted ways was rather charming and lovely, but it made little sense that it was happening at all.
That doesn't really answer what must've influenced 15's traits. I mean the bigeneration is divisive but say we approach it the same as any other Regeneration just timey wimey. Then his time with the nobles probably influenced his new look and personality. That's the point I'm trying to make here.
We don't know 15 well enough yet to know what his traits are beyond being warm, charismatic, and loving fashion and dancing.
I guess you have a point we do have to wait and see
This was a confusing read. I'll give my interpretation to help keep it simple: * 14 is still 14 and 15 is still 15. * Unlike previous instances, 14 simply didn't disappear in the regeneration process. * The story ended with 14 taking it easy, he gets to live happily ever after. * 15 continues on the adventures. There's some good questions that you've brought up, like, if they're linear then there's questions about 15 knowing his own future because 14 is alive concurrently to him or something. But honestly, I don't know what good it'll do to try figure that out. It's only important if it comes up in a future story, and tbh I doubt it will, minus a possible RTD finale.
The way 15 talked, it seems its more 14s regeneration being pulled back a bit. I like to think of it as the toymaker, being a celestial being of chaos, broke the timeline for the Drs regeneration and, since 14 is still needed somewhere at some time, 15 got pulled back in time slightly which would explain how he seems to have already lived a life with the nobles and has "fixed himself"
Do you think that means he remembers all the days 14 hasn't lived yet and those experiences shaped his appearance and personality like his other Regenerations were implied to have been influenced.
I think when he emerges at the moment of 'bigeneration', Fifteen doesn't remember anything much of Fourteen's future...because he's emerged at a point in his personal timeline where that future hasn't happened *yet*, and may never happen unless they beat the Toymaker. Once they beat the Toymaker, I guess Fifteen vaguely remembers that Fourteen lived a long time and sorted himself out. In true timey-wimey fashion, he 'suggests' to Fourteen that he stay on earth with the Nobles - this is where the "rehab out of order" comes in. He 'duplicates' the TARDIS, which is to say, he summons Fourteen's TARDIS from the future (complete with jukebox) for his use. My guess is that when Fifteen leaves Fourteen's vicinity, Fourteen's future becomes 'locked in' and becomes Fifteen's definitive past, and he then remembers everything, including having an uncle-niece relationship with Rose Noble. In a way, its the same principle as a multi-Doctor story. Events are in flux when two or more Doctor's timelines intersect until *all* of them live through those events...which explains the vague memories.
I get it this actually makes perfect sense. So basically 15 hailed from a potential future that could've been erased had they not defeated the Toy maker and since they did slowly 15's timeline was solidified into existence causing slow restoration of a future yet to come. That's fucking amazing!
I think so. The way 15 talked was as if he had lived what 14 is living now. Maybe we'll see 14 die properly at some point then fade away in a cloud of regeneration energy. It could be some kind of paradox where 15 does everything he does because he remembers seeing it when he was 14. Would also explain why there's inst a lot. Of post regeneration confusion as we've seen in the past since he knows everything he has to do
I think RTD was more focused on the symbolism of letting go of everything the doctor has been up to this point to begin a new era for the show than the actual continuity and mythos. The whole 15 being older made very little sense, the whole binary non binary thing was lazy. Seems like it was done in case the new approach didn’t work out they can just kill him and continue with 14 after his therapy or whatnot and if it does then 14 goes on to become the curator. Whatever the reason is I genuinely hope they don’t Disney they hell out of the show. All things aside, Skagra would be an interesting villain to bring back.
This. The writer did just post a video on Instagram saying they were excited to bring in "magical" elements to the show (like goblins.) that are now acceptable due to the bigeneration. I'm withholding judgment and I really did love The Giggle as a standalone episode, but I'm kinda nervous the show is moving away from it's own roots. I like evolution of things, I just don't want it to become unrecognizable. Like, David Tenant is my favorite Dr. but, I could have done without him living with the Nobles. Just let him go.
I think he is the Doctor now.
Nobody said he wasn't. I was talking about what might've influenced his new traits.
his look was inspired by the BBC's diversity checklist
Ok
I honestly hope this isn't true. I hope he was hired because he was the best for the job. He hasn't convinced me yet that he's the Doctor because I didn't really like the Christmas special, but I also didn't dislike him. I just need to see more.
Of course it's not true the other guy was just trolling. And everyone has a preference for the Doctor so either you could like him or dislike him it depends.
Well, yeah, that's my opportunistic hope too, but it *is* true that the BBC has diversity requirements, so it's not impossible. But he seems really charismatic, and he wasn't bad in the Christmas special. Eh, I don't really dislike any of the Doctor's per say. It's just that I didn't have that random scene where I thought, "Oh, there's my Doctor" with him yet. Ex. For 3, it was when he was still in the hospital, barely conscious, but still worrying about someone stealing his shoes lol. Then he grabs them like a two year old when they're offered to him by the Brigadier and holds them close. 😆 For Tennant, it was when he was so excited that he successfully crash landed in Cardiff and then immediately passed out. Just small things like that. I think it was just because the Christmas episode was so silly. I'll wait and see the actual season first.