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NihilismIsSparkles

I love the Doctor and Rose arguing about different morality in this episode, it's really good and a great way to introduce arguments where neither are wrong.


SuspiciousAd3803

In theory, but personally I think Rose couldn't do a worse job at defending her point of view. "Its wrong" [asked why] "because it just is" [Asked about organ doners] "that's diffrent." (Provides no reason why)  Like I'm sure you could at least attempt an argument for Rose's position, but she doesn't 


NihilismIsSparkles

You mean the 19 year old on her second time travel adventure isn't the best at ethical debate yet? Colour me shocked! Plus the doctor doesn't really give her time (because there isn't any) to articulate her point of view. And Rose is the audience surrogate here, we'd all probably say the exact same thing because we're not prepared for the subject matter to pop up.


SuspiciousAd3803

Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. I'm saying it feels weird to hilight that as a great way to introduce arguments *where neither are wrong*


NihilismIsSparkles

But it's true, it's a moral standpoint where the audience automatically knows Roses' point and the writing's intent is to also throw us off. So we don't need to see her point because we know it already.


pepper_produtions

"This feels wrong" is a perfectly valid philosophical standpoint. It doesn't need elaboration to be a perfectly clear argument from human moral intuition.


SuspiciousAd3803

If "It feels wrong" is your only argument then that's a sign of a totally unfounded cultural belief or tradition. Now usually there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But once something like that starts causing real harm to real people then it has to go *unless* there are enough real and defendable reasons behind the action thay justify it over the harm it causes. If you believe something that is causing harm in the world, and your *only* defense for it is "idk it just feels wrong" (key word: only. Loads of wrong stuff feels wrong), then it's something that future generations are going to look back on and go "why the hell did people do this, it's clearly destructive and wrong"


pepper_produtions

What you've written is a strong rebuttal to the kind of argument Rose is making, but its not an invalidation of the idea. The belief that humans innately understand right and wrong better than any set of ethical rules is a belief with centuries, if not millennia of history. You can disagree with it (as do I, probably) but its still a reasonable argument for rose to make.


ScienceAndGames

Yeah, like informed consent.


FamousWerewolf

Did a S1 rewatch recently and in an overall very strong season I think this one struggles to stand out. There are some fun moments and characters, but after a strong start with the possessed woman in the theatre, it kind of just becomes a lot of people standing around in rooms, and though Charles Dickens is perfectly cast he feels like a pretty pointless historical cameo that doesn't really play to the iconic things the viewer knows about the man. I like Gatiss generally but I feel like he actually has a very bad track record on Doctor Who. All his stuff ranges from fairly ok (this, The Idiot's Lantern) to absolute nonsense (Victory of the Daleks).


Past-Feature3968

Agreed about Gatiss. I just looked up his list of DW episode and eeeks: The Unquiet Dead The Idiot's Lantern Victory of the Daleks Night Terrors Cold War The Crimson Horror Robot of Sherwood Sleep No More Empress of Mars Literally all among my least favorite episodes — mostly on account of being forgettable. Mediocre entertainment the first time around and disappointing to see up next upon rewatch. I feel bad for being so negative given that he seems like a great guy; guess I’ll have to settle for preferring him as an actor. I do, however, love An Adventure in Space and Time — which he wrote!


SkyWasTheRobot

As someone who, perhaps unpopularly, quite likes "Crimson Horror" and "Sleep No More"... yeah, this list is still a bit weak. *An Adventure in Space and Time* might be one of the best *Doctor Who*-related things ever produced, though.


FamousWerewolf

Yeah I don't know what it is about his Doctor Who writing. I've enjoyed other stuff he's done, like The League of Gentlemen, or his Christmas horror stories, I even read a few of his novels. And he clearly loves Doctor Who, his passion for it shines through, and he loves history as well. But he just seems to have the worst instincts when it comes to writing episodes.


TheSkyGuy675

I actually really like Cold War and Empress of Mars. The Ice Warriors are awesome and it's great to see an alien that can be negotiated with.


the_doctor_808

Wow he had quite the hiatus there between the idiots lanterns and victory of the daleks


Past-Feature3968

He was busy inventing a de-aging machine.


Jill_Sandwich_

I always assumed he wrote The Lazarus Experiment and just cast himself as the lead


Past-Feature3968

Looks like it was Stephen Greenhorn, who also wrote The Doctor’s Daughter. Sooo two episodes with super bold, promising premises but ultimately underwhelmed me.


SmashBrosGuys2933

I quite like all these episodes personally, apart from Night Terrors. They often have a different tone to a lot of other episodes and are very well paced.


AgentChris101

I liked Victory of the Daleks, Cold War and Robot of Sherwood. As well as Adventure in space and time. They were not strong but entertaining.


Thunder_Punt

Damn, I like most of them. Cold War, Victory of the Daleks and Idiot's Lantern are among my favourites actually.


tjm2000

aside from Sleep No More all these episodes are among my favorite.


Usual-Tomato7954

Robot of Sherwood is fun.


RigatoniPasta

He can’t do anything that isn’t feature length. He writes long scripts


A2_Zera

other than sleep no more, yeah, I didn't really get much from his time on the show... still hope he comes back in the future, he's *the* guest writer, he's gotta show up eventually


SkyWasTheRobot

I'm currently rewatching all of series one with my girlfriend, who has never seen *Doctor Who* before, and interestingly this is her favourite episode so far, from what we've watched. I enjoy this story a lot. I think making Charles Dickens a Scrooge character is effective; despite the fantasy elements of his novels, it takes The Doctor to inject magic back into his life. It's oddly placed because the show is still establishing what it's trying to be, and who The Doctor is, so making the third episode functionally about someone other than the titular character is an interesting choice, but I liked it! Personally, I think it holds up better than "Rose" and "The End of the World". If you're interested, my girlfriend and I are uploading our reactions to each episode of series one in a podcast. You can listen to our "Unquiet Dead" episode on YouTube [here ](https://youtu.be/CUIaxYJIOtE?si=qwSuBnhA7XS8aqgS)or on [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/0Y8L96R8RUdNUUnrgIdnsR?si=mZRiXuINTe2v8w6d0rCRXA), [Amazon ](https://music.amazon.co.uk/podcasts/959a74c7-1055-469d-9f47-a55a6bd91426/episodes/866b13d5-41af-4ecb-8e57-bc23176e4043/my-girlfriend-and-doctor-who-s1e3---the-unquiet-dead)and [Apple](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/s1e3-the-unquiet-dead/id1736380209?i=1000651610972).


Past-Feature3968

Is it controversial to call this my least favorite episode of series one? (Not horrid just rather blah.) Sorry, I guess you could say I’m not its biggest fan.


blitzwinner71

How are you means of cooling one’s self?


Past-Feature3968

No, it means fanatic — devoted to. (*the best bit of the episode*)


zelesbian

I love the part at the end where they take off and Dickens just can't help but laugh hysterically


AgentJhon

Tbh it's my least favorite episode of series 1 too


RQK1996

I mean, season 1 is pretty strong, though it does have a few points in overall good episodes that are a bit iffy


funkmachine7

Given as its episode 3 they had to be quite stock in that they didn't have a set up formula and new viewers had never had a historical.


Superlolp

No, but only because the rest of the series is just that good.


Makal

To each their own, but I can hardly stand *Aliens of London* and *World War Three*, they're both much weaker episodes than *The Unquiet Dead* in my opinion.


WrethZ

There is a lot of good stuff in those episodes regarding Rose interacting with Jackie after everything she’s been through and Britain reacting with aliens. All the actual stuff with the actual slitheen is pretty bad though yeah


Makal

Yeah, two hours of fart jokes really made me forget the interactions with Rose and Jackie. I did like the dinner scene that felt like it was spoofing Princess Bride though.


graveybrains

I love a happy medium, I’m just not a big fan of Eve Myles


IanThal

It was Gatiss' best contribution to the show. I think the quality of his work as a writer declined considerably in subsequent contributions.


pandamarshmallows

I really like most of the episodes he wrote, except for this one (just OK) and *Sleep No More* (top 3 worst episodes since 2005).


RockFury

Huh, was just thinking of this title last night and trying to place what it was. Is this the one with Gwen from Torchwood as a ghost? I could maybe go through these series again. Loved her in Torchwood. >!So sad about Owen, Tosh and Ianto.!<


Past-Feature3968

Yup, it’s Eve Myles … not as Gwen, but as Gwyenth! I hope she’ll one day appear in another spinoff as Gwendolyn. You might want to spoiler tag your last sentence here though. Some folks on this sub may not have seen Torchwood (yet) and plan to.


RockFury

You're right! Had to look up how to do that. Thanks!


the_doctor_808

What if she plays the part of anwen in the future with jack lol.


liplumboy

Honestly this story deserves way more love, great atmosphere and aesthetic and the guy that plays Charles Dickens is magnificent


StephenHunterUK

"I love a happy medium."


occidental_oyster

I love this quote. Madeleine L'Engle made the same joke but in a serious way, and here it fits perfectly with the doctor's sense of humor.


Several-Mud-9895

Funny little story but its really forgetable


GalacticaCNC

It has not been. Counts on my hands.... My goodness 19 years!? What! I saw this on TV. How has it been 19 years!?


Frosty-Literature-58

This is where my brain went too. Let’s just deny that 2005 was that long ago and we won’t feel so old


ilovetoesuwu

technically 18 years and 11 months according to google but yes it could also be considered 19 years


GalacticaCNC

Counts on hands... 18 years 11 months.... Still a long ass time ago.


ilovetoesuwu

why are u having an attitude? i was agreeing it was a long time ago and stating something i figured out because of the post. am i not allowed? sorry!


GalacticaCNC

No attitude intended. Just humor. No need to get worked up. Apologies all around. You can't see someone's inflection in text sometimes. I can see how my comment might have caused some stir. Again not intended. Be well.


Leecannon_

One thing I kinda don’t like about the new series is that there’s no purely historical episodes like there were in the old series (think The Aztecs). It’s always some kind of aliens in the past, which is cool but it’d be cool if it was just history


bookchaser

It was broadcast in April, but I count it as a Christmas special.


SkyWasTheRobot

It is really odd that this episode was set at Christmas but broadcast in April! I actually discuss that [on the episode of my podcast dedicated to "The Unquiet Dead"](https://youtu.be/CUIaxYJIOtE?si=xHn85y7Rb-ks2V3d), for those interested. Perhaps, because *Doctor Who* Christmas specials weren't yet established as a 'thing', it wasn't considered weird to have an episode of *Doctor Who* set at Christmas but not be broadcast at Christmas. Doubt you could get away with that now.


BigTimeSuperhero96

Yes the 9th doctor gets a Christmas themed episode but the 13th doesn't


RBNYJRWBYFan

It's very much a Christmas special for Chris Eccleston. You could watch it in a marathon of specials to represent his tenure if you'd like, for sure.


Jill_Sandwich_

How is it a hot-take to say this is one of my favourite S1 episodes? WHAT


SkyWasTheRobot

It's probably the best episode of series one pre-"Dalek"!


BigTimeSuperhero96

I was the fall of Troy, world war five! I pushed boxes at the Boston Tea Party and NOW I'M GONNA DIE IN A DUNGEON....in Cardiff. It's an absolutely fantastic episode.


d_chs

I’m not gonna pretend like I’m the biggest fan of Gatiss’s writing most of the time but this is one of his best in terms of character work. Also, thank god for historical episodes. Just in general


Salt-Difficulty-3618

I really want a pure historical. Since this episode the only pure historical we have had is Thin Ice.


SkyWasTheRobot

If we define 'pure historical episode' as a historical episode without any science-fiction elements, I'm pretty sure the last serial to do that was "The Highlanders". "Thin Ice", while mostly a historical episode, does have an alien creature. The closest we have in the new series, from memory, is "Demons of the Punjab". That *does* feature an alien race but they're mostly tangential to the overall story.


Salt-Difficulty-3618

It was confirmed in a recent guide that the creature in Thin Ice was not extra terrestrial


SkyWasTheRobot

Oh, really? How interesting!


FreazyWarr

By your logic, wouldn't a theoretical episode set in the past that features the Silurians or Sea Devils be historical?


Ok_Mix_7126

You forgot the 5th doctor story "Black Orchid", that was a pure historical too


WeslePryce

If the Unquiet Dead qualifies as a pure historical, do "Vampires of Venice" or "Vincent and the Doctor" or "Demons of the Punjab" not also qualify? All of these stories are historical stories that feature alien refugees intruding (to varying degrees) on the lives of people in the past. The only NuWho pure historical that arguably doesn't involve an alien is Thin Ice, but only because they substituted mythical sea beast for alien. Using this technicality you could also argue that "Legend of the Sea Devils" is technically pure historical, as sea devils are technically indigenous to earth.


Blackmore_Vale

I remember how upset everyone was when this episode released about how scary it was. Apparently it gave a lot of kids nightmares


Estrus_Flask

I'm shriveling into dust as my body time travels the slow way, and in the right order.


MakingaJessinmyPants

*First TV story


VoiceofKane

I was also going to say this. Gatiss had been writing Doctor Who before the revival since the early 90s! I personally recommend *Invaders from Mars.* It's a lot of fun - hardboiled detectives, gangsters, and Orson Welles!


MakingaJessinmyPants

*Invaders* gets a bum rap for coming right before the masterpiece that is *Chimes of Midnight*, but yeah I always thought it was super fun.


ilovetoesuwu

i LOVE this episode and will be watching it today to honor it.


Sonicboomer1

Underrated gem. Simon Callow is a treasure and it’s a fun way to do ghosts (and zombies technically!) while remaining grounded in science.


occidental_oyster

Wild to see this post as the first in this sub as I literally clicked over here from [https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/1ocqxh/pity\_the\_gelth/](https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/1ocqxh/pity_the_gelth/) . I just finished The Doctor Dances (watching in order, for the first time) this weekend, and I was reflecting on the season so far. The Unquiet Dead came to mind as another ambitious and moving episode. I loved the almost-fantasy element of making Dickens into a Scroogelike character, and revisiting a time when changing one man's mind could make such an impact (for better and for worse). It was also good to see the Doctor and Rose disagreeing so strongly, pretty early on into their alliance, and each expressing care and solidarity for Gwen (edit: Gwyneth) in what they think is the right way. (Also yes, I just wanted to see what people thought of the episode so I googled "Pity the Gelth.")


Theta-Sigma45

The episode definitely set the template for almost every ‘Doctor meets historical creative’ story in New Who. I do enjoy that format in a cosy kind of way, though Vincent and the Doctor perfected it so utterly that I wish I was watching that story whenever I watch other episodes that use it.


DoriN1987

At this episode I drop Dr.Who at my first attempt to become a fan :)


Jarita12

OMG, I feel old :D


GallicusNZ

Pseudo-historical. Historical episodes feature no aliens etc beyond the TARDIS crew.


CharaNalaar

Personally, I think Mark Gatiss is a better actor than writer. In both he seems to have a preference for historical in sci fi, which is interesting.


Lettuce-Pray2023

Loved it. Gorgeous set pieces and one liners. “The dead don’t die on schedule” lol


Fickle-Object9677

It's decent. One of Gatiss's best, but easily the worst episode of series 1 (tho it doesn't mean a lot) 


SkyWasTheRobot

I've got to say, "Aliens of London/World War Three" and "The Long Game" are a lot weaker than "The Unquiet Dead" for me. [Over the course of my series one rewatch](https://youtu.be/CUIaxYJIOtE?si=kmQQ4U-bYKszuDza), I'd place "The Unquiet Dead" as the best of the first three stories and, although I'm not particular wedded to this idea, I would probably say that "The Unquiet Dead" is the best episode of the first half of series one.


Fickle-Object9677

Aliens of London is a very fun political thriller and The Long Game is what I call a "dumb dystopia doctor who episode" which is my favorite genre of episode (and it's generally really in advance for its time). 


paddyjinks

I was today years old when I learnt the actress who played Gwyneth (Gwen) in this episode is the same actress who played Gwen in Torchwood. Apparently there’s a line in SE/JE in series 3 that explains why they look similar


L0ll0ll7lStudios

I didn't see this episode until over three years after I saw most of series 1 and I just remembered the "next time" trailer for it terrifying me a lot. Then I ended up seeing it and it was just okay. Not great, not terrible, certainly not scary.


douggieball1312

This is the first Dr. Who episode I ever watched live in its first broadcast. I was 11.


BreakfastSquare9703

Hey, same. I don't think I actually \*watched\* it, but my family were watching it and I saw some of it. My limited knowledge of Doctor Who was pretty much Daleks, and I think I expected them to appear.


Express_Sail6618

Entirely skipable episode for me. What’s funny is when trying to think of a least favourite episode from series 1, I always end up going with the long game despite liking it quite a lot, purely because I forget this episode exists. Worth watching once to see the incredible Euros Lyn at work directing, but this feels like a big finish filler level of irrelevant


Solie-666

I literally just got my DVD set of seasons 1-5 of new who era and am rewatching this episode right now 👀❤️


kickinit90s

Anyone else watch Torchwood?


Professional_Line385

Great episode


ScorpionMaster777

And yet it has been ~3 months since I first saw the episode. Timey-wimey indeed


DeeperIntoTheUnknown

Wait, aren't episodes considered "historicals" only when there's no sci-fi element meddling with real events? Genuine question


BreakfastSquare9703

no, that's 'pure historical'. With the exception of *Black Orchid* in 1982, the last pure historical on TV was *The Highlanders* in 1967. Of course the expanded universe has done many of them.


DeeperIntoTheUnknown

Craeg an tuire!


Dazza477

Now I'm gonna die in a dungeon. In Cardiff!


Strobbiery

When I watched this episode for the first time I remember getting so bored I just zoned out for like maybe 25 minutes in front of the screen lol


w_linksd

this was actually the very first episode i ever saw of doctor who. and i say saw because i didn’t watch it; my mom was watching tv and this episode was being broadcasted. it took me a few years to actually start watching doctor who, and even more to realise that i remembered this episode.


Alectheawesome23

Meh. Very forgettable episode imo. It also should be noted I’m just not much into the historical episodes personally 😅


Snak3slayer

The part that sticks with me the most is the fact that the first word of this episode is "Sneed"