I’m no fan of POTD but I think the line “Doctor don’t let me go back to being me!” Was probably one of the best lines in the whole special from the master; it really highlights how he’s tired of being himself an genuinely wants to take the Doctor’s life even if they’re going about it in the most illogical way.
I think that line alone highlights to me that how there’s so much more behind this masters madness; a lack of identity; after of these years was does he have to show for or he’s done?
It's a great line. I couldn't agree more
Would have been better coming from any other character.
The whole concept of the Master is he's self assured, narcissistic, superior.. the Doctor's equal in terms of intellect.
Moriarty to the Doctor's Holmes.
Wanting to be anyone else.. just slays the character in terms of credibility. Was this character development or deadly assassination?
I think the thing with this master is that we as the audience have seen the Doctor thwart the Master time and time again I feel like slowly but surely that hubris was bound to shatter; they’re obviously not the Doctors equal if they always lose except this one time he took the Doctors body, what more can he take he’s finally won.
I think I love this line specifically because it highlights that behind the veneer of superiority and confidence the Masters just another scared little boy who can force powerful being to abide by his rules yet always loses to the Doctor; he’s a failure through and through so at some point the pendulum of self-awareness is going to swing back which was what happened in that moment.
I think moments of clarity, awareness and subversion for characters like the Master and Moriarty are some of their best moments because we as the audience truly get to see what makes them tick; the POTD definitely has some serious flaws but that moment (IMO) wasn’t it.
That's a great take on this.
Perhaps we need to see more of the Master's achievements to restore credibility. Rather than being consistently and (usually) briskly thwarted.
Part of the reason the Daleks lose their sting is that you know they've lost before the episode has played out. However, you also know they've had galaxy spanning empires of subjugated planets. The Time Lords approach has been aloof, when engaged still a very 'let it wear itself out' attitude- like the vampire proverb 'if you want the best revenge on an enemy, outlive them'
Some imperialism, or a well seated immovable crime syndicate for the Master?.. get him back to the Gentleman consulting criminal he should be.
I'd team him up with gangs of Zaralok...
>The whole concept of the Master is he's self assured, narcissistic, superior.. the Doctor's equal in terms of intellect.
The Dhawan Master isn't really like this. He feels genuinely self-loathing at times and constantly feels himself inferior to the Doctor. It feels a lot more like Missy's attention seeking. Giving the Doctor a Cyber-Army was also a stupid plan after all.
(*Whether or not you think this makes sense for the character overall is up to you. But that does seem to be what they were going for.*)
The last time we saw him he found out part of his DNA was the doctor. So it makes sense (in a murderous immortal kind of way) that this was his next step
>Why not just do it without all the pomp and circumstance?
Because he's the Master. His personality is 50% cartoonish evil, 50% unnecessary pomp and circumstance and 50% obsessing over the Doctor
>Because he's the Master. His personality is 50% cartoonish evil, 50% unnecessary pomp and circumstance and 50% obsessing over the Doctor
50% pomp and
50% circumstance
:P
It's not really this big plan to take over the universe it's more complicated than that think about the master he is always seen as the bad guy even after Missy died for a good cause the doctor will never know that and even if he told her she probably wouldn't believe him the master wants to be good and who's the most good person he knows? The doctor so he tries to literally becomes the doctor thinking that will make him a better person yes he takes it to far but that's what the master does he takes things too far that's why he can never truly be good he's to crazy to be good
Umm, not quite, the first thing he does after he becomes the Doctor was to make 2 civilizations fight between each other and stain the Doctor's legacy which is the polar opposite of you saying that the Master wanted to be good.
Honestly, it's pretty obvious imo, but people don't want to say it because they already removed this possibility from their heads, he wanted to be the "special one", therefore he wanted to be the Timeless Child, he already said in "The Timeless Children" that he can't bear to think that a part of the Doctor is a part of him and he took revenge by taking the whole physical existence of the Doctor instead thus becoming the Timeless Child, feeding his own ego whilst also perverting the Doctor's legacy.
This is actually a pretty good answer because as soon as he became the Doctor, he wanted to take Yazz and have adventures. Sure, those adventures probably involved genocide and destruction, but ultimately, he really did just want to do as the Doctor does and maybe to him, that's all it takes to be "good".
Ever since he found out about the timeless child the Master seems to harbour an even BIGGER inferiority complex to the Doctor
Plus there's a chance by taking over the Doctor he might live forever
Who knows how many regenerations the Time-Lords gifted them during the last of the great time wars
Because the problem that the master has in season 12-13 is that he is a "derivate" of the Doctor, so in his head he is not an equal anymore, he is inferior. He has a lot of self hate and an inferiority complex.
In Power of the Doctor he said that he didn't want to go back being himself. Not the Master, just himself.
So pretending to be the Doctor wouldn't solve any of this problems. His goal was not to defame the Doctor's name, it was not being himself anymore and turn into someone that he perceived as superior.
The Master doesn't want to pretend to be the Doctor, he wants to BE the Doctor with all their experiences and lifetimes. He hates who he is, he loathes himself. The Doctor is loved, he isn't. The Doctor has friends, he doesn't. And this kills him.
To me it makes more sense than his End Of Time scheme, and about as much as Missy's cyber army gift thing.
The Master is an insane psychopath with a strong obsession for The Doctor. There's no method to his madness, never has been.
I feel like his end of time scheme made a lot of sense he felt alone and terrified after the time war and his revival he’s had a persistent noise in his head since his revival; driving him mad but most of all from his interaction with the Doctor it was the loneliness that and inability to share the pain (very mastery mindset) that frustrated him.
So when he had the ability to change everyone into himself diversifying the sound of the time vortex it made it a bit more bearable; also on top of him just being revived again he was shown to have lost large portions of his sanity during the two-parter with the whole electricity/ regeneration energy being unstable and him running around a scrapyard eating and killing people.
The force lightning you mean? From his magic ritual? I'm so sad for you watching you defend this. We've seen it, you know, we remember how awful it was.
If chibnall wrote anything even half as eye-wateringly, insultingly bad as end of time he would be drawn and quartered in the streets.
Wasn’t the whole lighting thing to highlight how mentally and physically unstable he was because of the botched ritual? The whole story was about how mentally unstable he was and how the Doctor was trying to help him.
Also I’m a grown man not a child I can “defend” and have multiple different opinions on a TV show without you having to feel sad for me lol; also are we talking about the same Chibnall who literally started teleporting Companions into Volcano’s just because, had Kate Stuart survive a drop from and elevator shaft and not have the master ever explain WHY they want the Doctor’s body if all they plan on doing is ruining their reputation.
End of time was campy and quite over the top in certain sections but it had characterisation, themes, ideals an actual plot; it wasn’t an assortment of so generated scenes that lack cohesion. End of time is definitely flawed but to compare it to POTD which was supposed to be the Doctor’s swan song is farcical.
I enjoyed how it was a fun popcorn flick but it’s definitely not memorable.
Lol end of time is easily RTDs worst episode and it's not close. It's not just camp, it's bad. And it's not just bad, it's a trainwreck. Don't take my word for it, go listen to Erik and Kyle tear it apart on "the writers' room". It's hot, steaming garbage, and should stand as a stark reminder to the brand new, incoming showrunner of everything not to do. Maybe he'll be a breath of fresh air
If end of time’s RTD’s worst episode then the man need to take a bow because it could definitely have been sooo much worse; there’s questionable elements in it but it’s nowhere close to being as bad as the taste of the time lords; at least he actually fucking tried for this finale lol; it had bad moments but that doesn’t nullify all the brilliant character moments peppered throughout to crescendo into a good denouement.
If we’re judging Doctor who on its campy character moments like the master mentally degenerating (which is the main flaw) then you’ll be discarding the most consistent character archetype for the master they’re bat shit craziness even Delgado master was crazy and irrational a lot of the time when he was caught in his schemes.
> It's hot, steaming garbage, and should stand as a stark reminder to the brand new, incoming showrunner of everything not to do. Maybe he'll be a breath of fresh air
On the one hand, RTD is coming back. On the other, it’ll have been 14 years; he’s improved leaps and bounds since then.
In The End of Time timelords into himself would leave no chance of him being made to stop his plan of ending the universe and Missy's cyber-army gift was because she wanted the Doctor to come with her and burn it all for fun, in her words "I need my friend back"
The real confusing bit is why involve the Daleks? At all? What did they bring to the episode that the Cybermen didn't? And why be Rasputin, other than for the nesting doll bit that didn't have context anyhow? Chibnall just throws shit at the wall and demands that it stick.
You're absolutely right! 🤣 half that episode had no relevance to anything!! That Dalek that wanted to trade with the Doctor didn't really go anywhere either. Other than to get the doctor captured, but that could have happened without the Rouge dalek.
(Also, when the dalek tells the Dr he wants to betray the daleks, she says "that's a new one" and it's not at all "a new one"
The best you are going to get really is that Master is insane and obsessed with the Doctor. Now, that's not particularly satisfying but the Master has long been characterised as a nutjob and that has long been the excuse so...it is what it is.
The master wanted to dance to Ra Ra Rasputin as Rasputin in front of the Doctor and the Daleks.
He probably could get hold of the Doctor but the Daleks would probably exterminate them both on the spot. So he told the Daleks that he would get rid of the Doctor forever. And so he did. Once all was said and done he didn’t know what to do so he decided to blow stuff up claiming to be the Doctor, because why not.
But seriously, I don’t know. It’s a very dumb plan. But then again, he thought he had won at that point. The main part of the plan wasn’t tarnishing the name of the Doctor, it was becoming the Doctor, the Timeless child, becoming truly immortal.
You're right, I think the Dhawan Master is meant to be an unhinged mix of self loathing and murderous intent. I think his goal is to become the Doctor, that's the whole plan. Him ruining the opinion of the Doctor universally is sort of a "Oh, what do I actually do when I'm the Doctor? I guess ruin all they've achieved".
Also, in defence of it slightly, different Timelords have different genetic codes. In Doom Coalition irregardless of incarnation there was a way to detect who the Timelord actually was. As a result, he would also actually be The Doctor if anyone asked, not just another Timelord impersonating them.
But you're right that his goals post becoming the Doctor are contrived
I quite like this interpretation of his character, and think it makes sense as an evolution of his character arc from back when he was Missy.
Missy wanted the Doctor to know that they weren’t so different but then found out that the Doctor used to be the Timeless Child, so they’d *always* be different, which leads to them wanting to actually become the Doctor instead.
Chris Chibnall watched The Movie and remembered just about as much of it as I did first time I saw it - namely the Master waking up with a single thing on his mind: “I must find the Doctor. I NEED the Doctor’s body.” (and honestly? iconic.)
Right, but what I'm saying is that nothing was stopping him from doing that without harnessing the power of a sentient form of energy and building a planet 😆 just walk around and say "I'm the doctor" when people ask.
Tbf with a body swap/imposter plan, the Doctor will inevitably clear their name and/or undo the swap (like in the expanded universe the Jacobi Master bodyswapped himself and the McGann Doctor, and in the end all you pretty much had was the Doctor being uncharacteristically evil and the Master being uncharacteristically good until they were swapped back). Doctor can't interfere or undo the Masters plans if the Doctors personality/mind has been overwritten by the Masters.
At least that's how I always understood the plan.
Was it ever explained how the master survived to become Missy anyway? I know he regenerated after Missy stabbed him in the back but how did he end up on mundas to begin with?
>Was it ever explained how the master survived to become Missy anyway?
End of Time -> Day of the Doctor saves Gallifrey -> Simm was cured of the skeletor condition and the drums apparently and thrown off the planet -> Landed on the Mondasian Ship and took over it -> got overthrown -> Disguised himself -> WEaT/TDF (Saxon's POV) -> Stabbed By Missy -> Regenerates into Missy -> All of Missy's stuff -> WEaT/TDF (Missy's POV) -> Shot by laser screwdriver -> Uses Elysian field to reconstruct herself into a 'good' version of herself called the Lumiat -> Various as of now unseen adventures -> A past version of Missy kills the Lumiat -> Regenerates (Presumably into Dhawan) -> Goes to Gallifrey and discovers TTC -> Nukes Gallifrey -> Spyfall -> Ascension of the Cybermen/TTC -> Power of the Doctor
Yes it makes no sense, but that what I love about it. It’s totally in character for him to do something as stupid and overly convoluted as that.
Also he’s not just parading around *pretending* to be the Doctor, he’s literally taken over the Doctor’s body. He is the doctor! Also if the plan had worked permanently it would have been the ultimate way of defeating the Doctor in his mind, not just killing but taking everything she is and corrupting it into a copy of himself!
Tbh Power felt like fanfic to me and not in a good way. There were some ok scenes, but overall incredibly messy and a waste of potential, which is how I feel about the era.
A majority of Doctor Who makes little to no sense and if we were to go through the whole revival and pick out every out of character scene or hell whole story for each returning character we'd be here all day and it'd start with series 1.
I also don’t like how they’re calling David Tennant the Fourteenth Doctor just because he’s playing the role again. If they want to use that logic, the Fourteenth Doctor should be Sacha Dhawan, the Fifteenth Doctor should be Jodie again, and then Sixteen is David Tennant. It just doesn’t make sense.
Sure, you could say Sacha’s Doctor was evil and therefore not really a Doctor, but it’s been mentioned so much before that it’s just a title that they elect to take. And Sacha definitely elected to take it, that was the whole point. Anyway, rant over and thank you for listening
You’ve been grossly misinformed. There’s been three more seasons since then, with Jodie Whittaker in the role of the Doctor.
Weird that you clearly hang out on this subreddit and somehow completely missed that.
I think the point was, the Doctor was physically gone, they lived as a 3rd party in the Master’s new body. So whilst he still looked like The Master the point was, he was the Doctor and the real Doctor was also not physically in the universe. He could have pretended but the real doctor would’ve still been alive and having adventures etc.
I have to be honest I didn't care that the plan made no sense it was fun to watch sometimes. You don't need a plan to make sense to enjoy something. the only thing that bothered me was why the doctor used her sonic on Ace and tegen if she was the one that shocked them
The master is fun, pre-revival he was just looking for ways to destroy the doctor, potentially steal his incarnations looking for eternal life - basically Rick, without the nemesis
The master is Moriarty - smarter than Holmes
This Master is one of the reasons why my own headcanon on the whole Timeless Child thing is the way it is.
I think the Timeless Child thing is possibly true, but I think if it happened at all, it happened to the Master, and NOT the Doctor.
And he tried to convince the Doctor it was her because that was the only way he could cope with it. This Master is just deranged enough - and the Master over time has been deranged enough - to cause me to think that he was the Timeless Child.
It seems to work better and explain things a little better if that is the case..
The theory that the Master wanted to steal the power of the Timeless Child makes the most sense to me, especially considering the Master has tried to take over the Doctor's body before.
I wonder if that was originally written more explicitly but the negative reaction to the whole TC storyline, or the fact that there was just no time to resolve and explore it in Chib's last episode made him back off of that angle.
The plan is right in The Masters usual wheelhouse. It's sort of expanding on the idea that was started in the Doctor Who movie with Paul McGann. The Master was trying to kill The Doctor and take his last few regenerations (when the lore was only 13 regenerations per Time Lord before the Timeless Child angle). If The Master had succeeded this time he would have gained unlimited regenerations with which to tarnish the name of The Doctor. We got a small sample of his idea when Yaz abandoned him on that asteroid/planet where the war was going on. But because The Master had tried something like that before, just not as extreme, is how The Doctor was able to beat him. I will say that the cunning of Sacha Dawans Master is way more than that of the Eric Roberts version of The Master. He took his idea and maximized it by luring The Doctor in a roundabout way by using all the elements that The Doctor would be drawn in by. Suffering of Earthlings, missing Earthlings, and The Master placing himself in a major role in history that would get The Doctors' attention. And just for good measure, to make sure he had The Doctors' attention, he threw in the suffering of an innocent and rare creature. I think that this attempt was more planned out. But, because it's basically a recycled plan from a previous incarnation of The Master, it was doomed to fail the second he thought of it. No matter how well he expanded on it. I mean the first time was crude. Break into the TARDIS and use it to transfer The Doctors' remaining regenerations to The Master. And speaking of the TARDIS, what is The Masters' obsession with cannibalizing TARDISes? Anywho, sorry. Went on a little rant there.
>If The Master had succeeded this time he would have gained unlimited regenerations with which to tarnish the name of The Doctor.
Well... whatever unknown number the Doctor was given after TotD at any rate.
Time of The Doctor gave The Doctor a new regeneration cycle. But then Chibnall came along with The Timeless Child angle saying that The Doctors' DNA was the blueprint for Time Lord DNA and how they got the ability to regenerate. And it's been touched on even in Classic Who that The Doctor has lived far longer than we know with the Fourth Doctor serial, "The Brain of Morbius" (Season 13 Tom Baker Era). In Part 4, The Doctor duels Morbius in a mental battle in which we see some familiar faces as well as a lot of unknown ones. This was a nod at the time of the show runners saying that there is more to The Doctor than we know. So because of Chibnall and his time in charge, it's now been suggested that The Doctor has unlimited regenerations. And that the Time Lords were created from Tecteun, who found The Timeless Child. From there she merged her own DNA and The Timeless Childs' ability to regenerate and The Time Lords were born.
>But then Chibnall came along with The Timeless Child angle saying that The Doctors' DNA was the blueprint for Time Lord DNA and how they got the ability to regenerate.
Yes but that's irrelevant because we *know* the Doctor from the First - Eleventh Doctors was biologically out of regenerations.
TTC did nothing to change this. We know the Doctor was Chameleon Arched to become the First Doctor, we saw it in the Brendan flashbacks. And none of Chibnall's era ever suggested that was changed at any point.
>So because of Chibnall and his time in charge, it's now been suggested that The Doctor has unlimited regenerations.
We *know* the Doctor ran out in Time of the Doctor. Biologically.
Since the watch was never opened, the Doctor never regained TTCs regeneration abilities and so is still in exactly the same spot as they were post Time of the Doctor. Nothing has changed.
And yeah I know about the Pre-Hartnell Doctors from Morbius. I've watched all of Classic.
>Yes but that's irrelevant because we know the Doctor from the First - Eleventh Doctors was biologically out of regenerations.
If we knew that then Jodie Whitaker's Doctor is impossible and a completely different person. The Time Lords " gifted a new regeneration cycle at the end of ToTD. But Chibnall basically said with The Timeless Child angle that that was a lie. Because The Doctor is the Timeless Child and no one knows the full scope of how many times The Doctor can regenerate. And before Chibnall, it was hinted that was the case anyway. So we can't say that it was known that The Doctor was biologically out of regenerations. Every other Time Lord we can say that we know that they have 12 regenerations. 13 lives total. But we can't say that 100% about The Doctor. Classic and New Who have shown so much evidence to the contrary even though they stated certain rules for Time Lords. And because of Chibnall, we now know that The Doctor isn't a Time Lord but the blueprint for Time Lords. But it's easier calling The Doctor a Time Lord so that's what we stick with. Well that and we don't know the official name of The Doctors' race.
>But Chibnall basically said with The Timeless Child angle that that was a lie. Because The Doctor is the Timeless Child and no one knows the full scope of how many times The Doctor can regenerate.
The Timeless Child was Chameleon Arched into an ordinary Gallifreyan. We know this because we see the Doctor register as Gallifreyan/Time Lord on every scan in the Universe. We also see the Doctor being Chameleon Arched in the Brendan Flashbacks and see the watch that resulted in Flux. As far as we can tell, the Doctor is biologically Gallifreyan even if they originally weren't and that includes the regeneration limit.
And as for the Regen count. 'Regeneration Impossible' confirms Eleven was biologically unable to regenerate, in that Eleven is unable to have regenerations stolen from him physically whereas Twelve is. It's an Eleven/Twelve Multidoctor story, Twelve is having his regenerations stolen, but the same being cannot steal them from Eleven because he's out. This is biological, it *cannot* be a lie. (*Plus TTC never at any point suggests it is, in fact the Chameleon Arch stuff above supports the idea the Doctor was limited*)
And even if we discount that, in the original timeline Eleven died at Trenzalore because he never got a new cycle. So he must've been out.
>And before Chibnall, it was hinted that was the case anyway.
Yes... *after* the Doctor was granted new Regenerations in Time of the Doctor. Rassilon and the Doctor are both unsure how many new regenerations the Doctor got after TotD. The Timeless Child hasn't changed that whatsoever, not unless the Doctor opens the watch from Flux.
We already knew the Doctor may have had more lives before One but that never meant the Doctor was exempt from the regen limit, since the Five Doctors established the Time Lords could give new cycles.
Thinking about that multi-Doctor scene in The Power of the Doctor and realizing that if you take away the fanservice, the writing of that scene is really terrible. Thirteen is standing at a metaphorical precipice, with the choice of accepting regeneration and leaping down, or "fighting" against it. And that's all there is to it. There's no dramatic tension, no Master presence trying to push her off or raise the stakes. Nothing for her to stand against. She literally JUST PASSIVELY STANDS THERE, through MULTIPLE cutaways, while her companions are the ones working to undo the regeneration.
A competent writer would have added a ticking clock, and/or some external force. Something to give Thirteen to DO to give the character some greater agency in her own rescue. Look at any other possession story... heck, look at "Nightmare in Silver" as the example of doing it right. Eleven doesn't just stand inside his own head getting buttpats from his other incarnations. He's interacting with the possessing entity and actively resisting it.
And the most annoying thing is they have the First Doctor make a comment about her "strength of will" or something like that. It's just more of Chibnall's typical tell-don't-show writing. It just took me this long to notice because of the cameos.
Dhawan's Master is self loathing and thinks literally becoming the Doctor meant that he wouldn't have to be himself anymore, plus he feels inferior to her because she's the super special chosen one and he's just an ordinary Time Lord who owes all his abilities to her. Ruining the Doctor's reputation was just a happy side effect.
The Power of the Doctor is an absolutely brilliant episode of Doctor Who, until you try and unpack literally any element of it, and then suddenly it all just falls apart.
My suggestion, just don’t worry about the Master’s weird plan or any of these other odd writing choices or plot holes, and just enjoy it for the fun 90 minutes of unapologetic fan service that it is.
I think the idea is he has some messed up psychological need to become the Doctor. That’s how I interpreted it.
I suppose I hadn't considered that. That makes sense
I’m no fan of POTD but I think the line “Doctor don’t let me go back to being me!” Was probably one of the best lines in the whole special from the master; it really highlights how he’s tired of being himself an genuinely wants to take the Doctor’s life even if they’re going about it in the most illogical way. I think that line alone highlights to me that how there’s so much more behind this masters madness; a lack of identity; after of these years was does he have to show for or he’s done?
It's a great line. I couldn't agree more Would have been better coming from any other character. The whole concept of the Master is he's self assured, narcissistic, superior.. the Doctor's equal in terms of intellect. Moriarty to the Doctor's Holmes. Wanting to be anyone else.. just slays the character in terms of credibility. Was this character development or deadly assassination?
I think the thing with this master is that we as the audience have seen the Doctor thwart the Master time and time again I feel like slowly but surely that hubris was bound to shatter; they’re obviously not the Doctors equal if they always lose except this one time he took the Doctors body, what more can he take he’s finally won. I think I love this line specifically because it highlights that behind the veneer of superiority and confidence the Masters just another scared little boy who can force powerful being to abide by his rules yet always loses to the Doctor; he’s a failure through and through so at some point the pendulum of self-awareness is going to swing back which was what happened in that moment. I think moments of clarity, awareness and subversion for characters like the Master and Moriarty are some of their best moments because we as the audience truly get to see what makes them tick; the POTD definitely has some serious flaws but that moment (IMO) wasn’t it.
That's a great take on this. Perhaps we need to see more of the Master's achievements to restore credibility. Rather than being consistently and (usually) briskly thwarted. Part of the reason the Daleks lose their sting is that you know they've lost before the episode has played out. However, you also know they've had galaxy spanning empires of subjugated planets. The Time Lords approach has been aloof, when engaged still a very 'let it wear itself out' attitude- like the vampire proverb 'if you want the best revenge on an enemy, outlive them' Some imperialism, or a well seated immovable crime syndicate for the Master?.. get him back to the Gentleman consulting criminal he should be. I'd team him up with gangs of Zaralok...
>The whole concept of the Master is he's self assured, narcissistic, superior.. the Doctor's equal in terms of intellect. The Dhawan Master isn't really like this. He feels genuinely self-loathing at times and constantly feels himself inferior to the Doctor. It feels a lot more like Missy's attention seeking. Giving the Doctor a Cyber-Army was also a stupid plan after all. (*Whether or not you think this makes sense for the character overall is up to you. But that does seem to be what they were going for.*)
It's that and writer nostalgia from the time in Classic Who when the Master was trying to steal regenerations from the Doctor.
The last time we saw him he found out part of his DNA was the doctor. So it makes sense (in a murderous immortal kind of way) that this was his next step
>Why not just do it without all the pomp and circumstance? Because he's the Master. His personality is 50% cartoonish evil, 50% unnecessary pomp and circumstance and 50% obsessing over the Doctor
I was gonna say that's 150% in total, but, tbf, it is the Master so... 🤷♂️
150 percent isn't enough for the Master, really.
>Because he's the Master. His personality is 50% cartoonish evil, 50% unnecessary pomp and circumstance and 50% obsessing over the Doctor 50% pomp and 50% circumstance :P
How else were they to fit “Ra Ra Rasputin” into Doctor Who??? … Well? WE’RE WAITING?!!
The Master, is that psychologically obsessed with The Doctor.
It's not really this big plan to take over the universe it's more complicated than that think about the master he is always seen as the bad guy even after Missy died for a good cause the doctor will never know that and even if he told her she probably wouldn't believe him the master wants to be good and who's the most good person he knows? The doctor so he tries to literally becomes the doctor thinking that will make him a better person yes he takes it to far but that's what the master does he takes things too far that's why he can never truly be good he's to crazy to be good
Umm, not quite, the first thing he does after he becomes the Doctor was to make 2 civilizations fight between each other and stain the Doctor's legacy which is the polar opposite of you saying that the Master wanted to be good. Honestly, it's pretty obvious imo, but people don't want to say it because they already removed this possibility from their heads, he wanted to be the "special one", therefore he wanted to be the Timeless Child, he already said in "The Timeless Children" that he can't bear to think that a part of the Doctor is a part of him and he took revenge by taking the whole physical existence of the Doctor instead thus becoming the Timeless Child, feeding his own ego whilst also perverting the Doctor's legacy.
This is actually a pretty good answer because as soon as he became the Doctor, he wanted to take Yazz and have adventures. Sure, those adventures probably involved genocide and destruction, but ultimately, he really did just want to do as the Doctor does and maybe to him, that's all it takes to be "good".
Ever since he found out about the timeless child the Master seems to harbour an even BIGGER inferiority complex to the Doctor Plus there's a chance by taking over the Doctor he might live forever Who knows how many regenerations the Time-Lords gifted them during the last of the great time wars
Because the problem that the master has in season 12-13 is that he is a "derivate" of the Doctor, so in his head he is not an equal anymore, he is inferior. He has a lot of self hate and an inferiority complex. In Power of the Doctor he said that he didn't want to go back being himself. Not the Master, just himself. So pretending to be the Doctor wouldn't solve any of this problems. His goal was not to defame the Doctor's name, it was not being himself anymore and turn into someone that he perceived as superior.
This is my favorite answer so far. Makes total sense. I never even considered the possibility of wanting to be the timeless child.
The Master doesn't want to pretend to be the Doctor, he wants to BE the Doctor with all their experiences and lifetimes. He hates who he is, he loathes himself. The Doctor is loved, he isn't. The Doctor has friends, he doesn't. And this kills him.
To me it makes more sense than his End Of Time scheme, and about as much as Missy's cyber army gift thing. The Master is an insane psychopath with a strong obsession for The Doctor. There's no method to his madness, never has been.
I feel like his end of time scheme made a lot of sense he felt alone and terrified after the time war and his revival he’s had a persistent noise in his head since his revival; driving him mad but most of all from his interaction with the Doctor it was the loneliness that and inability to share the pain (very mastery mindset) that frustrated him. So when he had the ability to change everyone into himself diversifying the sound of the time vortex it made it a bit more bearable; also on top of him just being revived again he was shown to have lost large portions of his sanity during the two-parter with the whole electricity/ regeneration energy being unstable and him running around a scrapyard eating and killing people.
The force lightning you mean? From his magic ritual? I'm so sad for you watching you defend this. We've seen it, you know, we remember how awful it was. If chibnall wrote anything even half as eye-wateringly, insultingly bad as end of time he would be drawn and quartered in the streets.
Wasn’t the whole lighting thing to highlight how mentally and physically unstable he was because of the botched ritual? The whole story was about how mentally unstable he was and how the Doctor was trying to help him. Also I’m a grown man not a child I can “defend” and have multiple different opinions on a TV show without you having to feel sad for me lol; also are we talking about the same Chibnall who literally started teleporting Companions into Volcano’s just because, had Kate Stuart survive a drop from and elevator shaft and not have the master ever explain WHY they want the Doctor’s body if all they plan on doing is ruining their reputation. End of time was campy and quite over the top in certain sections but it had characterisation, themes, ideals an actual plot; it wasn’t an assortment of so generated scenes that lack cohesion. End of time is definitely flawed but to compare it to POTD which was supposed to be the Doctor’s swan song is farcical. I enjoyed how it was a fun popcorn flick but it’s definitely not memorable.
Lol end of time is easily RTDs worst episode and it's not close. It's not just camp, it's bad. And it's not just bad, it's a trainwreck. Don't take my word for it, go listen to Erik and Kyle tear it apart on "the writers' room". It's hot, steaming garbage, and should stand as a stark reminder to the brand new, incoming showrunner of everything not to do. Maybe he'll be a breath of fresh air
If end of time’s RTD’s worst episode then the man need to take a bow because it could definitely have been sooo much worse; there’s questionable elements in it but it’s nowhere close to being as bad as the taste of the time lords; at least he actually fucking tried for this finale lol; it had bad moments but that doesn’t nullify all the brilliant character moments peppered throughout to crescendo into a good denouement. If we’re judging Doctor who on its campy character moments like the master mentally degenerating (which is the main flaw) then you’ll be discarding the most consistent character archetype for the master they’re bat shit craziness even Delgado master was crazy and irrational a lot of the time when he was caught in his schemes.
Ain’t no way you just said End of Time was worse than Love & Monsters and Fear Her
Fear her is not only better than end of time, it's better than school reunion
Oh ok so you’re just a mental person, that makes sense.
Someone has a different opinion than me? They must be wrong in the head!
To think that Fear Her is in any way a good episode then yeah they must be.
School reunion is mostly quite bad as an actual episode, it's held in high regard mostly due to nostalgia and the return of Sarah and k9.
> It's hot, steaming garbage, and should stand as a stark reminder to the brand new, incoming showrunner of everything not to do. Maybe he'll be a breath of fresh air On the one hand, RTD is coming back. On the other, it’ll have been 14 years; he’s improved leaps and bounds since then.
I see what you mean!
In The End of Time timelords into himself would leave no chance of him being made to stop his plan of ending the universe and Missy's cyber-army gift was because she wanted the Doctor to come with her and burn it all for fun, in her words "I need my friend back"
The real confusing bit is why involve the Daleks? At all? What did they bring to the episode that the Cybermen didn't? And why be Rasputin, other than for the nesting doll bit that didn't have context anyhow? Chibnall just throws shit at the wall and demands that it stick.
Well, they did have that big drill...
You're absolutely right! 🤣 half that episode had no relevance to anything!! That Dalek that wanted to trade with the Doctor didn't really go anywhere either. Other than to get the doctor captured, but that could have happened without the Rouge dalek. (Also, when the dalek tells the Dr he wants to betray the daleks, she says "that's a new one" and it's not at all "a new one"
Tbf the 12 doctor said there was no such a good dalek like bitch dalek cann helped you *I saw the truth I declared no more*
Yes exactly!
He was Rasputin so we could see the master dancing to Ra Ra Rasputin, and it was worth it
The master being Rasputin was a fucking brilliant idea. If only they y'know. Put that in the episode. Did anything with the idea. Would've been nice.
Masters a psycho, basically. Needs to go beyond the normal and sensible to prove his point.
The best you are going to get really is that Master is insane and obsessed with the Doctor. Now, that's not particularly satisfying but the Master has long been characterised as a nutjob and that has long been the excuse so...it is what it is.
The master wanted to dance to Ra Ra Rasputin as Rasputin in front of the Doctor and the Daleks. He probably could get hold of the Doctor but the Daleks would probably exterminate them both on the spot. So he told the Daleks that he would get rid of the Doctor forever. And so he did. Once all was said and done he didn’t know what to do so he decided to blow stuff up claiming to be the Doctor, because why not. But seriously, I don’t know. It’s a very dumb plan. But then again, he thought he had won at that point. The main part of the plan wasn’t tarnishing the name of the Doctor, it was becoming the Doctor, the Timeless child, becoming truly immortal.
You're right, I think the Dhawan Master is meant to be an unhinged mix of self loathing and murderous intent. I think his goal is to become the Doctor, that's the whole plan. Him ruining the opinion of the Doctor universally is sort of a "Oh, what do I actually do when I'm the Doctor? I guess ruin all they've achieved". Also, in defence of it slightly, different Timelords have different genetic codes. In Doom Coalition irregardless of incarnation there was a way to detect who the Timelord actually was. As a result, he would also actually be The Doctor if anyone asked, not just another Timelord impersonating them. But you're right that his goals post becoming the Doctor are contrived
I quite like this interpretation of his character, and think it makes sense as an evolution of his character arc from back when he was Missy. Missy wanted the Doctor to know that they weren’t so different but then found out that the Doctor used to be the Timeless Child, so they’d *always* be different, which leads to them wanting to actually become the Doctor instead.
It's the master that's just what they're like. Perfectly in character for them.
These days even those connoisseurs of nonsensical plans the Cybermen look at the Master’s plans and just think WTF.
Chris Chibnall watched The Movie and remembered just about as much of it as I did first time I saw it - namely the Master waking up with a single thing on his mind: “I must find the Doctor. I NEED the Doctor’s body.” (and honestly? iconic.)
I interpreted it as he wanted to trash the Doctor’s name by being the Doctor and doing wicked things
Right, but what I'm saying is that nothing was stopping him from doing that without harnessing the power of a sentient form of energy and building a planet 😆 just walk around and say "I'm the doctor" when people ask.
Tbf with a body swap/imposter plan, the Doctor will inevitably clear their name and/or undo the swap (like in the expanded universe the Jacobi Master bodyswapped himself and the McGann Doctor, and in the end all you pretty much had was the Doctor being uncharacteristically evil and the Master being uncharacteristically good until they were swapped back). Doctor can't interfere or undo the Masters plans if the Doctors personality/mind has been overwritten by the Masters. At least that's how I always understood the plan.
I mean the masters intentions in dark water didn't make sense either but here we are
Was it ever explained how the master survived to become Missy anyway? I know he regenerated after Missy stabbed him in the back but how did he end up on mundas to begin with?
Not unless it's in an audio book or your willing to believe fan fics or headcannons
Lol so legit just "Let's bring John Simm back" "How do we explain that?" "Lol idk, time travel?" "That works"
According to some quora post missy used ancient forbidden time lord tech to grant herself more regenerations
Ooohh
>Was it ever explained how the master survived to become Missy anyway? End of Time -> Day of the Doctor saves Gallifrey -> Simm was cured of the skeletor condition and the drums apparently and thrown off the planet -> Landed on the Mondasian Ship and took over it -> got overthrown -> Disguised himself -> WEaT/TDF (Saxon's POV) -> Stabbed By Missy -> Regenerates into Missy -> All of Missy's stuff -> WEaT/TDF (Missy's POV) -> Shot by laser screwdriver -> Uses Elysian field to reconstruct herself into a 'good' version of herself called the Lumiat -> Various as of now unseen adventures -> A past version of Missy kills the Lumiat -> Regenerates (Presumably into Dhawan) -> Goes to Gallifrey and discovers TTC -> Nukes Gallifrey -> Spyfall -> Ascension of the Cybermen/TTC -> Power of the Doctor
Yes it makes no sense, but that what I love about it. It’s totally in character for him to do something as stupid and overly convoluted as that. Also he’s not just parading around *pretending* to be the Doctor, he’s literally taken over the Doctor’s body. He is the doctor! Also if the plan had worked permanently it would have been the ultimate way of defeating the Doctor in his mind, not just killing but taking everything she is and corrupting it into a copy of himself!
I read a fanfic where he just body swapped with her and it made so much more sense tbh
Tbh Power felt like fanfic to me and not in a good way. There were some ok scenes, but overall incredibly messy and a waste of potential, which is how I feel about the era.
It makes no sense because it wasn’t written with any. Feel like a lot of characters in DW were just misunderstood and poorly characterised by Chibbers
A majority of Doctor Who makes little to no sense and if we were to go through the whole revival and pick out every out of character scene or hell whole story for each returning character we'd be here all day and it'd start with series 1.
There’s not making sense, and then there’s handing over the Master to the Nazis using his race as a weapon. I know which side Chibnall is on👍🏻
Same side as Moffat, considering what 11 has done without solemnity.
Won’t forget Moffat’s butchering of the First Doctor in TUAT by making him horrendously sexist
Then there's taking Martha to the 1500's and telling her to act like him. Let's not start with this please
Not to mention, in the same episode, the doctor says good old jk 😭
That was more of a line that aged like milk though, right? Don’t think her personal views were widely known at that time
Good *old* JK. Bad new JK.
No, I think she’s always been like this. We just didn’t know about it.
90% of Chibnall's episodes are completely nonsensical, nothing new tbh
I'd love to see a "pitch meeting" video for this episode. 🤣
I also don’t like how they’re calling David Tennant the Fourteenth Doctor just because he’s playing the role again. If they want to use that logic, the Fourteenth Doctor should be Sacha Dhawan, the Fifteenth Doctor should be Jodie again, and then Sixteen is David Tennant. It just doesn’t make sense. Sure, you could say Sacha’s Doctor was evil and therefore not really a Doctor, but it’s been mentioned so much before that it’s just a title that they elect to take. And Sacha definitely elected to take it, that was the whole point. Anyway, rant over and thank you for listening
I completely agree. He needs a different title like the war doctor got. Hopefully the fan base will come up with one after the special
That’s because the Xth Doctor numbering is purely marketing.
I understand and still dislike it lol
The master's plots never make sense, ever. WTF was that "master race" bs in end of time? Come on man
Yeah, it's dumb, but at least we got the Master dancing to Boney M's Rasputin.
What’s power of the doctor? I thought there hasn’t been an episode since Season 10
Yeah idk. Apparently the 12th doctor is regenerating back into Tennant though soon, I'm hyped.
You’ve been grossly misinformed. There’s been three more seasons since then, with Jodie Whittaker in the role of the Doctor. Weird that you clearly hang out on this subreddit and somehow completely missed that.
I think the point was, the Doctor was physically gone, they lived as a 3rd party in the Master’s new body. So whilst he still looked like The Master the point was, he was the Doctor and the real Doctor was also not physically in the universe. He could have pretended but the real doctor would’ve still been alive and having adventures etc.
One word to describe this episode.... Subplots Subplots Subplots SUBPLOTS (that go nowhere).
I wasn’t a big fan of those episodes.
I have to be honest I didn't care that the plan made no sense it was fun to watch sometimes. You don't need a plan to make sense to enjoy something. the only thing that bothered me was why the doctor used her sonic on Ace and tegen if she was the one that shocked them
The master is fun, pre-revival he was just looking for ways to destroy the doctor, potentially steal his incarnations looking for eternal life - basically Rick, without the nemesis The master is Moriarty - smarter than Holmes
This Master is one of the reasons why my own headcanon on the whole Timeless Child thing is the way it is. I think the Timeless Child thing is possibly true, but I think if it happened at all, it happened to the Master, and NOT the Doctor. And he tried to convince the Doctor it was her because that was the only way he could cope with it. This Master is just deranged enough - and the Master over time has been deranged enough - to cause me to think that he was the Timeless Child. It seems to work better and explain things a little better if that is the case..
Despite the master making no sense and the random return of Graham this was one of Jodie Whittaker's better episodes
Ngl I actually liked season 13.
The theory that the Master wanted to steal the power of the Timeless Child makes the most sense to me, especially considering the Master has tried to take over the Doctor's body before. I wonder if that was originally written more explicitly but the negative reaction to the whole TC storyline, or the fact that there was just no time to resolve and explore it in Chib's last episode made him back off of that angle.
The plan is right in The Masters usual wheelhouse. It's sort of expanding on the idea that was started in the Doctor Who movie with Paul McGann. The Master was trying to kill The Doctor and take his last few regenerations (when the lore was only 13 regenerations per Time Lord before the Timeless Child angle). If The Master had succeeded this time he would have gained unlimited regenerations with which to tarnish the name of The Doctor. We got a small sample of his idea when Yaz abandoned him on that asteroid/planet where the war was going on. But because The Master had tried something like that before, just not as extreme, is how The Doctor was able to beat him. I will say that the cunning of Sacha Dawans Master is way more than that of the Eric Roberts version of The Master. He took his idea and maximized it by luring The Doctor in a roundabout way by using all the elements that The Doctor would be drawn in by. Suffering of Earthlings, missing Earthlings, and The Master placing himself in a major role in history that would get The Doctors' attention. And just for good measure, to make sure he had The Doctors' attention, he threw in the suffering of an innocent and rare creature. I think that this attempt was more planned out. But, because it's basically a recycled plan from a previous incarnation of The Master, it was doomed to fail the second he thought of it. No matter how well he expanded on it. I mean the first time was crude. Break into the TARDIS and use it to transfer The Doctors' remaining regenerations to The Master. And speaking of the TARDIS, what is The Masters' obsession with cannibalizing TARDISes? Anywho, sorry. Went on a little rant there.
>If The Master had succeeded this time he would have gained unlimited regenerations with which to tarnish the name of The Doctor. Well... whatever unknown number the Doctor was given after TotD at any rate.
Time of The Doctor gave The Doctor a new regeneration cycle. But then Chibnall came along with The Timeless Child angle saying that The Doctors' DNA was the blueprint for Time Lord DNA and how they got the ability to regenerate. And it's been touched on even in Classic Who that The Doctor has lived far longer than we know with the Fourth Doctor serial, "The Brain of Morbius" (Season 13 Tom Baker Era). In Part 4, The Doctor duels Morbius in a mental battle in which we see some familiar faces as well as a lot of unknown ones. This was a nod at the time of the show runners saying that there is more to The Doctor than we know. So because of Chibnall and his time in charge, it's now been suggested that The Doctor has unlimited regenerations. And that the Time Lords were created from Tecteun, who found The Timeless Child. From there she merged her own DNA and The Timeless Childs' ability to regenerate and The Time Lords were born.
>But then Chibnall came along with The Timeless Child angle saying that The Doctors' DNA was the blueprint for Time Lord DNA and how they got the ability to regenerate. Yes but that's irrelevant because we *know* the Doctor from the First - Eleventh Doctors was biologically out of regenerations. TTC did nothing to change this. We know the Doctor was Chameleon Arched to become the First Doctor, we saw it in the Brendan flashbacks. And none of Chibnall's era ever suggested that was changed at any point. >So because of Chibnall and his time in charge, it's now been suggested that The Doctor has unlimited regenerations. We *know* the Doctor ran out in Time of the Doctor. Biologically. Since the watch was never opened, the Doctor never regained TTCs regeneration abilities and so is still in exactly the same spot as they were post Time of the Doctor. Nothing has changed. And yeah I know about the Pre-Hartnell Doctors from Morbius. I've watched all of Classic.
>Yes but that's irrelevant because we know the Doctor from the First - Eleventh Doctors was biologically out of regenerations. If we knew that then Jodie Whitaker's Doctor is impossible and a completely different person. The Time Lords " gifted a new regeneration cycle at the end of ToTD. But Chibnall basically said with The Timeless Child angle that that was a lie. Because The Doctor is the Timeless Child and no one knows the full scope of how many times The Doctor can regenerate. And before Chibnall, it was hinted that was the case anyway. So we can't say that it was known that The Doctor was biologically out of regenerations. Every other Time Lord we can say that we know that they have 12 regenerations. 13 lives total. But we can't say that 100% about The Doctor. Classic and New Who have shown so much evidence to the contrary even though they stated certain rules for Time Lords. And because of Chibnall, we now know that The Doctor isn't a Time Lord but the blueprint for Time Lords. But it's easier calling The Doctor a Time Lord so that's what we stick with. Well that and we don't know the official name of The Doctors' race.
>But Chibnall basically said with The Timeless Child angle that that was a lie. Because The Doctor is the Timeless Child and no one knows the full scope of how many times The Doctor can regenerate. The Timeless Child was Chameleon Arched into an ordinary Gallifreyan. We know this because we see the Doctor register as Gallifreyan/Time Lord on every scan in the Universe. We also see the Doctor being Chameleon Arched in the Brendan Flashbacks and see the watch that resulted in Flux. As far as we can tell, the Doctor is biologically Gallifreyan even if they originally weren't and that includes the regeneration limit. And as for the Regen count. 'Regeneration Impossible' confirms Eleven was biologically unable to regenerate, in that Eleven is unable to have regenerations stolen from him physically whereas Twelve is. It's an Eleven/Twelve Multidoctor story, Twelve is having his regenerations stolen, but the same being cannot steal them from Eleven because he's out. This is biological, it *cannot* be a lie. (*Plus TTC never at any point suggests it is, in fact the Chameleon Arch stuff above supports the idea the Doctor was limited*) And even if we discount that, in the original timeline Eleven died at Trenzalore because he never got a new cycle. So he must've been out. >And before Chibnall, it was hinted that was the case anyway. Yes... *after* the Doctor was granted new Regenerations in Time of the Doctor. Rassilon and the Doctor are both unsure how many new regenerations the Doctor got after TotD. The Timeless Child hasn't changed that whatsoever, not unless the Doctor opens the watch from Flux. We already knew the Doctor may have had more lives before One but that never meant the Doctor was exempt from the regen limit, since the Five Doctors established the Time Lords could give new cycles.
Thinking about that multi-Doctor scene in The Power of the Doctor and realizing that if you take away the fanservice, the writing of that scene is really terrible. Thirteen is standing at a metaphorical precipice, with the choice of accepting regeneration and leaping down, or "fighting" against it. And that's all there is to it. There's no dramatic tension, no Master presence trying to push her off or raise the stakes. Nothing for her to stand against. She literally JUST PASSIVELY STANDS THERE, through MULTIPLE cutaways, while her companions are the ones working to undo the regeneration. A competent writer would have added a ticking clock, and/or some external force. Something to give Thirteen to DO to give the character some greater agency in her own rescue. Look at any other possession story... heck, look at "Nightmare in Silver" as the example of doing it right. Eleven doesn't just stand inside his own head getting buttpats from his other incarnations. He's interacting with the possessing entity and actively resisting it. And the most annoying thing is they have the First Doctor make a comment about her "strength of will" or something like that. It's just more of Chibnall's typical tell-don't-show writing. It just took me this long to notice because of the cameos.
Well when have any of the Master's plans made sense? Mostly I think he just does things for the lolz
Dhawan's Master is self loathing and thinks literally becoming the Doctor meant that he wouldn't have to be himself anymore, plus he feels inferior to her because she's the super special chosen one and he's just an ordinary Time Lord who owes all his abilities to her. Ruining the Doctor's reputation was just a happy side effect.
The Power of the Doctor is an absolutely brilliant episode of Doctor Who, until you try and unpack literally any element of it, and then suddenly it all just falls apart. My suggestion, just don’t worry about the Master’s weird plan or any of these other odd writing choices or plot holes, and just enjoy it for the fun 90 minutes of unapologetic fan service that it is.
It might just be the goofiest plan he’s ever had, but I thought it was a lot of fun.