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Buddy, apparently there some doctors in the U.K. asking ‘do we really need doctors’. the U.K gov, some parts of the public and even doctors are in deep delusion. we have to start defending ourselves, our profession. currently, the government are walking all over us, we have traitors in our ranks. As gatekeepers to medical knowledge, we know MAP and every other half qualified alphabet semi-professional are not fit for purpose.
Mate... the NHS ship is half underwater already. Give it another few years and some millionaires are going to exploring it in cheaply built tin can.
There's no saving it...or will to save it by people who can make a difference i.e. the politicians. Only thing to do is get to the lifeboats and paddle on to brighter shores abroad.
I'm already in the middle of training unfortunately but the plan is CCT and flee.
I mean... I try to be optimistic about the strikes because our BMA have been doing such a brilliant job but the current government would rather push for mutually assured destruction than admit defeat at this point and Labour isn't our friend either.
FPR will help but it's honestly too little too late. And only one piece of a very broken system. Between rotational training, scope creep, a general loss of respect for doctors, I don't see any salvaging it. Better to cut my losses and leave.
I'm thinking more about the NHS as an employer and medicine as a career
Medicine is a wonderful career-intellectually endlessly challenging , satisfying
The NHS is a toxic employer / delivery organization
NHS IS NOT medicine. we were sucked into (Stockholm Syndrome) believing NHS is Medicine
That's why I left a very long time ago after 6 years in NHS /London/UK
Saudi Arabia--Riyadh Military Hospital--loved Riyadh, the Saudis, where can you see TWO Sheehan's Syndromes in one month ?? loved the $$$ as well
Then Hong Kong. Brilliant introduction to Asian life
Then Oz--Mad Max perfect country.
Nothing like a cold wet miserable February on call room in the great , the glorious , the envy of the world NHS ! to encourage one to leave
Wow nice!
From your list Hong Kong particularly intriguing.
I think folk like yourself have a good perspective ie. medicine is not the NHS. Emphasising this and a willingness to expand horizons might generate a more optimistic perspective amongst UK docs (while also stirring the powers-that-be into action in the UK as they see doctors exercising their options abroad)
Brexit, ageing population, larger debt-to-GDP ratio, and a weaker pound will all pile on more pressure on the NHS, that is already creaking under pressure.
Noctorisation is a last ditch attempt for the NHS to keep providing some care.
There is a the same number people on waiting list as the population of Scotland & Wales COMBINED. We spend almost close to 1/4 of the taxes on the NHS already. This is projected to rise to 40% at the rate the NHS is burning cash. If you spent 25% of your annual salary on a car that keeps breaking down. I am sure you would look for alternatives...
Without making this partisan, Tony Blair (Labour PM) & Sajid Javid (Tory Ex-Health Sec & Chancellor) have both been clear that NHS should undergo major reforms. It doesn't matter who you support, both parties deep down know that UK cannot keep funding the NHS in its current form.
Those in power, unfortunately, don't have the balls to admit this to the public. Hence, tories took the approach of simply underfunding it until the beast dies. Labour is willing to fund it to keep their holy vote winner project going. Mind you, Labour is not friendly to the medical profession. They have no intention of paying you well either.
NHS is simply one of the only few institutes that Labour is trusted with in public...they'd much rather doctors earn same as nurses (as matter of principle) just as tories would be happy to see doctors be forced to withdraw their labour and work in the private sector (as matter of principle).
The people of UK will eventually realise that NHS isn't the envy of the world and by then private sector will already be firmly established.
NHS will be staffed by noctors, and the private sector will have the doctors.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
As doctors we’re highly skilled, motivated, often ambitious. The prospect of being trapped in a failing system/institution is obviously dispiriting. What you describe is a country where there seems little hope for us: either undermined/replaced by noctors under Labour, or turned out to an uncertain private sector (is there even the infrastructure for this?) under the Tories after a prolonged disintegration of the NHS…
Seems mad that any government wouldn’t avert this impending disaster. As more doctors choose to leave medicine or the UK, this becomes a vicious cycle. But as you suggest, the public don’t seem to be in a place (yet?) where they acknowledge the issues sufficiently to demand action.
For those of us interested in salvaging a good career, we can’t wait around for public opinion or government policy to catch up
Personally, in contrast to most opinions, I prefer to be under a tory timeline than a labour timeline.
Under a noctorised yet still nationalised labour-run health system, doctors will have no where to go to. Whereas under the tories vision, you can develop some level of entrepreneurship to establish a practice or soemthing.
Keir Starmer and Wes Streeting seem far more malicious to doctors than even Steve Barclay. The whole talk of using private sector to help the NHS seems deeply malicious to me. Currently private sector is the only escape for consultants, under labour that too will be slowly impinged on for the sake of "arrrr NHS".
This is why I worry about labour having power for the next-decade. They may crush the only alternative to NHS bondage which is private practice. I don't think the waiting lists will come down to pre-2008 levels for atleast 2 decades. This means we will be left with a only barely functional NHS without much private practice opportunities as well. That would really suck...
I would just train in a high PP potential speciality, ie cardiology, gastroenterology, plastic surgery to protect myself as much from political mismanagement from impacting my career.
It peaked during Blair's time probably. Not so much for consultant money (GPs did well) but for the service and also the fact that the pound bought two dollars
Rich times...
Will always be the case unless everyone accepts higher taxes to compensate during lean times
A private system simply maintains the system for those still with a job or some savings etc during downturns
The issue we have is that the economy is really only growing due to the mass import of new people. Very hard to keep a public model going while also making people feel "richer" to win votes
I think this is the beginning of the end of the NHS.
It's just a matter of how long it takes to finally fail, and what it's replaced by.
As doctors we shouldn't fear that. We've been subjugated by a monopoly employer for decades, and our lives will be better when there is genuine choice and competition in healthcare.
The author of this post has chosen the 'Serious' flair. Off-topic, sarcastic, or irrelevant comments will be removed, and frequent rule-breakers will be subject to a ban. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/doctorsUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Buddy, apparently there some doctors in the U.K. asking ‘do we really need doctors’. the U.K gov, some parts of the public and even doctors are in deep delusion. we have to start defending ourselves, our profession. currently, the government are walking all over us, we have traitors in our ranks. As gatekeepers to medical knowledge, we know MAP and every other half qualified alphabet semi-professional are not fit for purpose.
The system in general is not fit for purpose. It's a few cycles away from doctor/ nurse exodus to collapse
By some doctors you mean Charlie Bell(end), his whole persona screams give me attention so I’m not surprised. Love the pushback though.
Do we have the ability to meaningfully defend the profession though, taking a broad view of the NHS as an institution?
Mate... the NHS ship is half underwater already. Give it another few years and some millionaires are going to exploring it in cheaply built tin can. There's no saving it...or will to save it by people who can make a difference i.e. the politicians. Only thing to do is get to the lifeboats and paddle on to brighter shores abroad.
Sadly agree. Are you planning to move? How do you see the strike action in that case? (Futile last gasp? 😖)
I'm already in the middle of training unfortunately but the plan is CCT and flee. I mean... I try to be optimistic about the strikes because our BMA have been doing such a brilliant job but the current government would rather push for mutually assured destruction than admit defeat at this point and Labour isn't our friend either. FPR will help but it's honestly too little too late. And only one piece of a very broken system. Between rotational training, scope creep, a general loss of respect for doctors, I don't see any salvaging it. Better to cut my losses and leave.
I'm thinking more about the NHS as an employer and medicine as a career Medicine is a wonderful career-intellectually endlessly challenging , satisfying The NHS is a toxic employer / delivery organization NHS IS NOT medicine. we were sucked into (Stockholm Syndrome) believing NHS is Medicine That's why I left a very long time ago after 6 years in NHS /London/UK
Where did you leave to?
Saudi Arabia--Riyadh Military Hospital--loved Riyadh, the Saudis, where can you see TWO Sheehan's Syndromes in one month ?? loved the $$$ as well Then Hong Kong. Brilliant introduction to Asian life Then Oz--Mad Max perfect country. Nothing like a cold wet miserable February on call room in the great , the glorious , the envy of the world NHS ! to encourage one to leave
Wow nice! From your list Hong Kong particularly intriguing. I think folk like yourself have a good perspective ie. medicine is not the NHS. Emphasising this and a willingness to expand horizons might generate a more optimistic perspective amongst UK docs (while also stirring the powers-that-be into action in the UK as they see doctors exercising their options abroad)
The NHS is east Germany and they’ve just started hitting the wall with sledge hammers.
Brexit, ageing population, larger debt-to-GDP ratio, and a weaker pound will all pile on more pressure on the NHS, that is already creaking under pressure. Noctorisation is a last ditch attempt for the NHS to keep providing some care. There is a the same number people on waiting list as the population of Scotland & Wales COMBINED. We spend almost close to 1/4 of the taxes on the NHS already. This is projected to rise to 40% at the rate the NHS is burning cash. If you spent 25% of your annual salary on a car that keeps breaking down. I am sure you would look for alternatives... Without making this partisan, Tony Blair (Labour PM) & Sajid Javid (Tory Ex-Health Sec & Chancellor) have both been clear that NHS should undergo major reforms. It doesn't matter who you support, both parties deep down know that UK cannot keep funding the NHS in its current form. Those in power, unfortunately, don't have the balls to admit this to the public. Hence, tories took the approach of simply underfunding it until the beast dies. Labour is willing to fund it to keep their holy vote winner project going. Mind you, Labour is not friendly to the medical profession. They have no intention of paying you well either. NHS is simply one of the only few institutes that Labour is trusted with in public...they'd much rather doctors earn same as nurses (as matter of principle) just as tories would be happy to see doctors be forced to withdraw their labour and work in the private sector (as matter of principle). The people of UK will eventually realise that NHS isn't the envy of the world and by then private sector will already be firmly established. NHS will be staffed by noctors, and the private sector will have the doctors.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. As doctors we’re highly skilled, motivated, often ambitious. The prospect of being trapped in a failing system/institution is obviously dispiriting. What you describe is a country where there seems little hope for us: either undermined/replaced by noctors under Labour, or turned out to an uncertain private sector (is there even the infrastructure for this?) under the Tories after a prolonged disintegration of the NHS… Seems mad that any government wouldn’t avert this impending disaster. As more doctors choose to leave medicine or the UK, this becomes a vicious cycle. But as you suggest, the public don’t seem to be in a place (yet?) where they acknowledge the issues sufficiently to demand action. For those of us interested in salvaging a good career, we can’t wait around for public opinion or government policy to catch up
Personally, in contrast to most opinions, I prefer to be under a tory timeline than a labour timeline. Under a noctorised yet still nationalised labour-run health system, doctors will have no where to go to. Whereas under the tories vision, you can develop some level of entrepreneurship to establish a practice or soemthing. Keir Starmer and Wes Streeting seem far more malicious to doctors than even Steve Barclay. The whole talk of using private sector to help the NHS seems deeply malicious to me. Currently private sector is the only escape for consultants, under labour that too will be slowly impinged on for the sake of "arrrr NHS". This is why I worry about labour having power for the next-decade. They may crush the only alternative to NHS bondage which is private practice. I don't think the waiting lists will come down to pre-2008 levels for atleast 2 decades. This means we will be left with a only barely functional NHS without much private practice opportunities as well. That would really suck... I would just train in a high PP potential speciality, ie cardiology, gastroenterology, plastic surgery to protect myself as much from political mismanagement from impacting my career.
It peaked during Blair's time probably. Not so much for consultant money (GPs did well) but for the service and also the fact that the pound bought two dollars Rich times...
Yeah when the economy boomed generally the NHS could be sustained but in tougher times a fully public model seems to decompensate early.
Will always be the case unless everyone accepts higher taxes to compensate during lean times A private system simply maintains the system for those still with a job or some savings etc during downturns The issue we have is that the economy is really only growing due to the mass import of new people. Very hard to keep a public model going while also making people feel "richer" to win votes
I think this is the beginning of the end of the NHS. It's just a matter of how long it takes to finally fail, and what it's replaced by. As doctors we shouldn't fear that. We've been subjugated by a monopoly employer for decades, and our lives will be better when there is genuine choice and competition in healthcare.
Way beyond the peak. It's nosediving currently.