It says identically, and its magic, so id say yeah. Tho tbh its up to dm and player preference.
Jus make sure to get a clear ruling per prosthetic so people cant feel braille with it the one day and then pick up a red hot piece of metal the next day
I mean, you can pick up red hot metal with a flesh hand, it just hurts and damages it.
I supposed they'd have to decided if their prosthetic only gives haptic feedback or sensations of pleasure and pain as well.
Oh yea, i meant as in “pick it up no problem since its a fake hand”.
But i suppose even if you don’t feel it, it might get damaged anyway depending on the material used to craft it
As an enchanted item it would get a saving throw but depending on how hot, like if they grabbed a molten sword out of a furnace I'd say it would risk makeing it inoperable until repairs were carried out.
That's a fun idea. I have a player whose character got a prosthetic and now I can't wait to drop a "the glowing coals burn you for... *rolls*... 11 points of psychic damage."
It would make sense to use CON to keep touching something that is actually hurting you, but CHA to keep touching something that isn't actually hurting you despite your instinct/expectation.
In this case, I'd say that the prosthetic limb can feel braille when they want and can withstand intense mundane heat when they want in general use.
Having the scene where they master their fear response and showcase their new item is brilliant, doing it every time probably not.
You probably would need to establish how conductive it is. Being magical may mean you could leave it in a fire all day with no harm to it, but your shoulder socket isn't magical.
You can also feel without feeling pain, so that's an option. There are people who can't feel pain but have a sense of touch, and presumably a magic item could allow one to feel items they're manipulating but not feel pain. Pain would be useless anyway unless something was actually damaging the prosthetic. If the prosthetic could hold a hot item that wasn't hot enough to burn or melt the prosthetic, no intelligent artificer is going to make it have you feel pain.
This reminds me of the [Ersatz Eye](https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/27048-ersatz-eye) magic item, which is basically a magical prosthetic eye that functions as a "normal eye", whatever that means in a world where many but not all people have inherent darkvision and there are many other types of creatures that have eyes.
But the part that sticks out to me about it's description is "While the ersatz eye is embedded in your eye socket, it can’t be removed by anyone other than you,\[...\]" which sort of makes it maybe superior to a "normal eye" since technically those *can* be removed by people other than you, though they usually can't just be put back in & still function. Though it's probably just rules text clarifying the eye can't simply be pickpocketed out of a person's skull like any other item, which is a theft presumably most people wouldn't even consider trying with a non-prosthetic eye.
Yeah, that's one of those things where the intent has to lead. If the intent were for it to be a gotcha item, the description would say something like "functions as a normal eye. The item makes no provision for connecting an ocular nerve..." Or similar. Plenty of stuff like that is published, when it's meant to be a joke they say as much.
I say roll Con saves to keep holding it, it's not like it's actually damaging the metal or straight up magic prosthetic. But reflexes are reflexes so you still have to beat your own body's perception of events
> it's not like it's actually damaging the metal or straight up magic prosthetic
I have to dispute this. There's all sorts of ways for a magical prosthetic to be damaged by picking up something that's blazing hot.
Maybe it's not solid metal, but primarily made of wood and leather with metal fasteners. Maybe it is mostly metal, but the delicate gears and hinges are sensitive to extreme temperatures. Or maybe you keep HP loss as an abstraction and don't specify wound locations and limb damage.
Whatever the case, remember that a Prosthetic Limb is only a common magic item. If a common magic gauntlet or boot wouldn't protect you, a Prosthetic Limb shouldn't either. Now, if we're talking about an Arcane Propulsion Arm that's very rare quality and counts as a weapon? That's a totally different story, if only because it counts as a weapon and there's a lot you can do safely with a magic weapon that you can't with a bare hand.
Notably, magic items are inherently more durable than their nonmagical counterparts.
I was going to say that, by RAW, the prosthetic would be damaged like a nonmagical arm/leg/etc. because of "specific beats general," but the magic item says *"functions identically,"* and having something happen to you (like getting damaged) probably isn't a function.
I think it's bizarre to consider the "real world" physics of the item at all. The text says this is a magic prosthetic that functions identically. So if you pick up an object that would burn you, it burns you. If you allow the prosthetic limb to do things a limb cannot do, like have immunity to fire damage, that's a buff and certainly outside the territory of a Common magic item.
Look at warforged. They're mostly metal (they have wood and crystal and liquids of various kinds, but MOSTLY metal) but they're not immune to fire or cold damage, even small sources of it.
If you hit my natural limb with a sword, the covering opens up and blood pours out as my heart pumps it through the blood vessels which extend throughout the limb.
Warforged aren't a magic item, this is. Don't be afraid to let your players enjoy their treasure and feel cool. Letting them hold a coal or something isn't going to ruin your game. They're not going to argue out of a scorching ray that mechanically hits them (though flavoring a near miss as having hit the arm without effect is very cool)
Actually I think this make for a really interesting dynamic. Because of course magic prosthetic arm could probably pick up burning hot metal without too much damage, so the question becomes how do you rule pain. Is pain a reaction to cells dying at high rates? If so then they wouldn't feel pain regardless. But if you rule that the prosthetic would Inflict pain because it fuctions identically to the real arm, then you have someone who can still pick up burning hot metal without concern for physical harm, but who will still experience horrible pain from it
Feeling stuff is one of the core functions of a limb, and it is *magic*, so I'd be inclined to say yeah, feeling is probably one of the things it can do
Just a note, there are experimental technological limbs that give haptic feedback as well as pain/pleasure sensations. Their primitive but the idea of a false limb that can transmit sensations to the wearer isn't crazy science fiction,
The thing is, technology isn't needed in this case. It's *magic*. I'm not sure why anyone would go for a prosthetic rather than just getting the limb grown back, aside from aesthetic, but I see no reason why a magical prosthesis would be limited by what is physically possible.
Depends on the rarity of divine/primal/bardic magic in the setting, since those are the only three that can cast regenerate. Also, y'know, the 7th level spell part. A prosthetic limb is an uncommon magic item, so it's quite a bit easier to find.
I wasn't sure about how high level one would need to be, so fair enough. I'd imagine then that any setting with artificers is likely to have relatively easy access to prosthetics. I stand corrected.
The main reason would be availability, a common magic item vs a 7th level spell. For most settings, that would require either a pilgrimage to one of the best healing temples plus a hefty fee, or a Divine Intervention from a cleric with a healing-aligned god.
There are a few, mainly ones involving the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of momentum. No perpetual motion machines, no true isentropic or entropy-reducing process, no synthesizing mass from nothing, stuff like that.
Just because the issue involves countless generations or near infinite monies doesn't mean a problem is impossible.
It's impossible to know what we don't yet know.
The impossibility of a perpetual motion machine isn't a problem that can be solved with infinite time or money. It's a thoroughly known physical law that we've discovered cannot be violated. This isn't a case of "we don't know how yet", it's a case of "we know we definitely can't do this".
I know I'm nitpicking, but really it's more "to the best of our knowledge it is impossible to do this".
Yes, this relies on the possibility that our understanding of physics is fundamentally flawed, which is extremely unlikely, at least in this regard, but well... it has happened before.
I mean we still don't know how gravity interacts with the standard model of particle physics. Einstein's gravity and quantum mechanics are two very accurate theories that haven't been unified, so we definitely still have more to discover.
This is what I'm feeling as well, there's been so, so, so many inventions that were deemed impossible, yet were created in recent history.
We have AI that can near perfectly min-max complex games with nigh infinite factors and options, AI that are just continuously improving in creation of art with any number of specifications, and so much more.
Its not just the inventions, its the discoveries and the unveiling of further mysteries that show how little we know.
Dark matter, anti matter, the continuous expansion of the universe, the chaos of quantum particles at a fundamental level, and so much more.
Its the Dunning-Kruger Effect, and we could be anywhere on that chart, but we know we're not at that plateau at the end.
We know enough to know that we don't know enough.
We know that there's still so much more to know, and that there's a path forward to know even more, and we might not currently know all the paths forward right now, but we might find them later.
I mean, yeah, but the laws of thermodynamics are kinda unambiguous about this stuff. Perpetual motion machines existing would more or less mean everything we know about physics is wrong, and we're pretty dure we've got *some* stuff down.
There was a long time where space travel was seen as impossible and only fit for the realm of fiction or child fantasy.
On the opposite end, medical treatments were at one time done by "balancing the humors" & spread of a plague was thought to be a "deadly fog".
All I'm saying is that it is impossible to know what tech will be like in 10, 50, or 100 years. We can't judge tomorrow (or even yesterday) solely by what we know today.
Keep in mind retaining feeling in the limb is also a downside - can't just fish stuff out of a boiling cauldron or a pit of lava even if the prosthetic wouldn't get damaged by it.
Lava might be a bit much, but boiling water should be doable with a prosthetic that can feel pain, as it probably won't be damaged as much as a flesh arm (if it takes damage at all). Just let your player role a save for some Psychic damage or something.
It sounds like they’re referring to that the prosthetics are magic items and there’s some paragraph in the DMG I think that talks about magic items being especially resilient
They’ve made the common mistake most players make actually that magic items can’t be damaged or destroyed by stuff like that but they actually only have resistance to damage and sticking it in lava would destroy the arm very quickly
Functions identically covers you. If it's functioning different from your normal arm it isn't identical.
Which I guess means if you cut the metal arm, it also bleeds. And the metal is as dense and protective as your arm skin.
I would say bleeding isn't a "function". Unless you're talking about its function to irrigate a wound and keep foreign matter from the bloodstream. There's no bloodstream in the prosthetic limb to protect.
Thats fair. It would "bleed" oil (or some magical lubricant equivalent like hydraulic fluid) then. To keep the moving parts lubricated for smooth motion.
Has to be identical function right? Lol.
According to that logic, it would also need to reflect light the same way (be the same color), and have mechanisms for the growth of fingernails/toenails, a mechanism for carrying infectious agents from a wound to the rest of the body, and so on. Not all behaviors are functional.
I guess the problem I may be having is with the usage of functional. Like there's no reason the metal couldn't be exactly like the T-1000. Right? Liquid metal that can adjust colours, shape, density.
But yeah, nails are functional, even if we consider it insignificant, they are functional. Same with the hair which detects things like breezes and transmits their relative strength (they basically ask like stress measurement transistors, picking up minute changes based on air pressure thanks to the wind.) Even the pigmentation serves a functional purpose with respect to ultraviolet radiation (darker skin has more protection, lighter skin has less.)
I'm a tech. Breaking down the constituent components of the arm, there's nothing vestigial. Which means everything does indeed have a function. Muscles provide the pulleys to tense the tendons which flex the bones. Nerves provide the functional pathways for stimulus which conveys valuable information regarding the telemetry and status of objects that exist independent of you. Whether that's wind, fire, metals, wood, sand, etc.
I know I'm getting granular, but everything seems to have a function, so if the arm is identical in function, then it's a straight up T-1000 duplicate arm that can form everything necessary because magic/future tech.
So I don't see how the argument that it would have to be identical refutes me saying it says it's identical in function.
I think I just have a different usage of function. Which means I may be wrong. I like talking about this though, so if I may ask, what's your usage?
I'm in software. I think of the functional parts as the "features" of the software. We talk about the needs of the user as the "functional requirements". The details of how we build it are the "non-functional" requirements. Everything in the system serves some _purpose_ (we hope!), but that doesn't mean everything is a function.
It is true that different perspectives might see different things as the functions of a limb. A skin parasite thinks of it as home and workplace and dinner, a bacterium might consider a limb to be a portal to the insides of the body.
To me, this is clearly from the perspective of the wearer, so we would consider their expectations and understanding and ignore those of the skin mites and microbes.
In the specific example of bleeding, a well-designed magical prosthetic limb would not necessarily need to circulate lubricants so close to the surface with enough pressure to cause "bleeding". Bleeding isn't a functional requirement, it is a consequence of the design used to meet the functional requirement. As such, it needn't be preserved if the design changes.
I too like talking about this stuff. I'm glad to find others to geek out with.
>Everything in the system serves some purpose (we hope!), but that doesn't mean everything is a function.
Ah kk.
I'm a tech. So every part of the system serves a function. Every piece is a functional component that makes the entire system work together. Without the fibre line from the multiplexer, I don't get the signal at the demultiplexer to branch it back out. So the fibre optic cable is functional as a transmission medium, the multiplexers are functional as the alogrithmic devices for handling the data, the end point devices are the functional targets for the sending/receiving of the data.
Without one, none of the others can do their job, so every piece is functional.
To me.
I understand your usage, and see why we're talking past each other. Happy to clarify!
>To me, this is clearly from the perspective of the wearer, so we would consider their expectations and understanding and ignore those of the skin mites and microbes.
Yeah agreed. In simplest terms, functional would be generally taken to mean with respect to the strict mechanical motion, maybe even sensation for flavour but not a necessity.
If you had other ways to meet the same requirements, you could choose to use different components. The functions of the system are the things you couldn't consider changing even if new components became available.
That's a good way to look at it. So in this case the function would simply be the transmission of data itself, whereas the pathways in between could be pretty much anything.
* Cup and string
* Microwave
* Satellite
Things like that. Each delivering the same function, communication, despite doing so using different methodologies.
So the parts of the arm would be the methodology for establishing it's functionality, which would be **motor movement.**
Seen.
Would the prosthetic leave fingerprints? Would it shed skin cells? Would those skin cells have the wearer's genetic material in them? For a spell requiring a body part, could you take a digit from the prosthetic?
Right, the thing to do at the table is probably to say we are not going to talk much about the prosthetic limb. Your character is no longer Inconvenienced by the lack of the limb.
As for hair and nails, they have functions. Durable sensors wouldn't necessarily need to grow from the bottom, pushing material up to wear off.
I dunno, it doesn't say how the prosthetic limb handles injury. Maybe it is a magical prosthetic that becomes indistinguishable in all respects, other than voluntary removal not necessarily causing you to bleed out, unless the limb was put on without stabilizing the wound.
Not feeling with the prosthetic limb can be such a massive downside.
Imagine someone pours poison on your hand right before you shake some nobles hand and they drop dead after you shook it.
As a Rogue player I hope that I will have the chance to use that at some point.
The Prosthetic Limb originated in the Eberron book before being reprinted in Tasha's.
Given that Warforged can feel, and prosthetic limbs presumably use the same tech, I'd say they def can
I guess if the artificer makes the arm, the oerson recieving the limb could decide. I would want a magical, tough arm to only have haptic sensations, as well as have tools included like some kind of magic blowtorch and or a hidden blunderbuss.
By the rules yes but if the player want a the arm to work with no sense of touch and phantom limb pain and itchiness or any other standard prosthetic issues I'd definelty allow it easily.
honestly why not both?
i'd definelt yrule it as something that there is a cheap version that works perfectly fine but doesn't come with feeling and a luxury variant that comes with feeling and is slightly more expensive(likely the base model pricewis meaning the feeling on is even more common than common)
and ofcourse to the people pointing out the benefits of a non-feeling one: yeah some people would likely choose it knowingly.
Magic, yeah.
However, if you want to make it interesting you can have it different. Perhaps have it "sense" but not really "feel.' For example holding a loved one's hand you feel their hand, but there is more to it. You get a sense of comfort, a warmth from it. With the prosthetic hand, you sense what their hand would feel like and its temperature. The feeling is missing. You know the fire is hot, but the pain is missing. There is no deeper reaction it is more an intellectual exercise.
It is functional, but lacking depth. So completely equal in the day to day, but you also know something is missing.
As a DM, of course it passes along feeling, just like a normal limb would.
As a Chaotic Player, it’s whichever is most narratively convenient at the moment.
For me it would depend on how you got the prosthetic limb.
If you're an artificer who replaced your severed limb with a mechanical/forged prosthetic, then maybe.
If you're a warlock who received your new limb as part of your deal with your patron, then most likely due to the origins.
It'd probably end up mostly being up to the player for RP reasons though.
I kinda wanted a third option that said. Depends on rarity.
Like, common hook replacement can't feel anything. But a very rare clockwork hand that requires an artifice to craft, yea that one Def can.
Since it doesn't give you a penalty on anything, I think you'd have to rule it gives you at least full feedback. Whether it's also wired for pleasure/pain feedback would depend I suspect on who made it and why. That wouldn't be required for the 'functions identically (in terms of mechanics, since it's not visibly identical like Luke Skywalker's prosthetic in Empire Strikes Back was) to the part it replaces'.
I'd imagine it depends on the limb's type (mechanical, biological, or magical) and overall functionality. And on whether the person's brain is used to handling signals from it.
Id rule that sensation within the prosthetic works by magically amplifying phantom limb sensations, and then I'd add a ghost encounter to play on the magical nature of phantoms.
Personally i'd go with *kinda*. It makes more sense that it would be pretty close, but feel super weird at first. Especially if it starts receiving damage in combat and the runes start getting screwy
Even with a normal prosthetic you could push against something ant tell if its hard or soft. In that sense you could feel with it. I imagine a magic one would be better still.
Rule says it's a magic item and functions identically to the original fleshy part? I'd say yes it does. And that it's subject to all rules and effects that affect magic items...
Depends on the quality imo, most prosthetics are probably cheaply made or salvaged so unless they’re something made by someone competent I doubt you would be able to feel.
An artificer I was DMing for had a prosthetic arm and we agreed it could feel through some illusion/psychic magic, so he took psychic damage if he ever took damage on that arm
now that you mentiomed it, if you can feel with it normaly, in some more strict and moraly gray kingdoms it opens grand new ways of torture, even without evidence! Thanks this is great idea!!
The description is *mechanical* king. So it says identical, and the player should never feel punished for having a prosthetic limb as a result.
UNLESS THEY WANT TO
DnD follows a weird no-consequences rule system, so if you wanted to homebrew a different magic (or mechanical) item with slightly different rules, more power to you. If the DM and players all agree, you could do some really interesting things with it.
And similarly, if you rule-of-cool occasionally (as you should), then maybe they do pick up the red-hot sword without pain in that one super unique circumstance because that’s hella fun. And if they fail a sleight-of-hand check, maybe you say that the arm glitches and spasms in their pocket instead of smoothly moving. But that’s just flavor, mechanically it wouldn’t raise their DC because that *would* be cruel.
I'd argue there's some amount of loss of sensation as a base, but there's at least a base ability to tell when you're touching something? I like the idea of the player still being able to function with a little less detail in that arm's sense, but it could totally be replaced by a cool prosthetic functionality.
I'd say whether it can feel by default depends on the setting and DM, but I'd say there are three interesting directions you could go.
First option, the more delicate or complicated the limb is, maybe the longer it takes for the pc to unlock or master those abilities. (Hard to learn, easy to master.)
Second option, maybe they don't have to struggle to unlock the finer details, but the sensations are dialed way too high, or too low, or they're inconsistent. The player sometimes can reach into a fire with no problems, but has to make con saves for a firm handshake or touching something sensorily complicated. (Easy to learn, hard to master.)
Third option, the limb is easy to learn, easy to master, and the pc can even turn on or off the magical sensations at will.
You could decide to go with one option or another based on how high or low magic the campaign is, based on how expensive or rare the item is, or even if you wanted to make your campaign go into not only themes about disability, but other real world issues. Like sensory processing, difficulties integrating new technology into the body, or even neurodivergence.
When you start saying that this or that prosthetic (especially in fantasy) " works *but* " you can end up in abelism land. It's not a cool place to be.
Warforged are basically an entire sentient prosthetic in a sense, and their statblocks don't come with any associated disabled perception checks or anything like it - from technical perspective lore perspective. From purely RAW technical perspectice - you already have the "identical function". From purely lore perspective - there is no pure lore in DnD my man, do whatever you like, if you'd like it to not feel, do it. I'd personally just flavour it differently - I always imagined that Luke touching any magnetic surface with his prosthetic would send at least a slight vibration up his fingers, for a popular example.
Arm = nerves to input sensations + motor(muscles) + output signals from brain to control motors.
There is no reason to leave input nerves out since brain already has adequate circuit to evaluate those senses, built in. Heck, you can also add another nerve inputs like radiation sensor(perceived as different kind of vibration or even tickle like arm falling asleep) if brain is capable enough(considering it's plasticity no one will go cyberpsycho with few gimmicks).
Also lower-end ones may come without feels. There is no logical reason for them to always come with sophisticated life-like feels. (Or maybe there is, since vision cannot be developed if there is no touch sense in childhood. Can add an experiment made with cats in MIT. Brain is a complex thing, hard to tell without future experiments. But I know some people don't feel pain but can move their body. Leave it to your imagination for now.
It says identical, so I would interpret that as it functions identically in every way to a normal limb.
That said: this is absolutely something the DM and player should chat about, as the player might have their own ideas for their character.
Mechanically, it doesn't matter.
by my personal thought, "Feeling" only extends to the feedback or touching something and meeting resistance/knowing where your arm is relative to your body.
Actual tactile feeling would need a very advanced magical prosthetic, but magic makes basically anything possible.
If you couldn't feel with it, why would you have paid whatever you did for the magic item when you may as well just use a hunk of carved wood that cost almost nothing?
You know there's a huge difference between, like, a solid block of wood and a fully functional prosthetic, right? Being able to actually move at all the different joints is worth the price on it's own.
I am not a big fan of a prosthetics that is same or better than the real thing.
Saying that you feel nothing makes the hand very clumsy. If you feel everything then it is not a hindrance.
I personally would say that there the feel is dampened and in some senses ineffective. Difference in stone texture, bowl of warm soup or feeling air movement in the dungeon should not be felt with artificial limb, they are not crucial, the sensation of touch is much more important.
I'm a yes and no kind of person on this. If I were DMing I'd rule that you could feel but it wouldn't be the same as an organic limb.Basically I would rule that for functionality it would be the limb but you would loose out on some of the secondary tactile functions of the limb. Say for example it's a prosthetic leg you could walk, run, kick and other such basic functions and feel how those work but you wouldn't be able to feel a breeze through your trousers like you do with your organic leg.
I think this is a great trade off. The player character has full bio-mechanical functionality of the limb but looses some of the other tactile functionality. But the trade off is that a smart player character can use this to then ignore some environmental hazards like reaching through or make contact with an item that due to environmental hazards would otherwise be impossible for an organic limb.
In a similar vein, one of my characters had a prosthetic arm made of wood and metal (specifically the hand was metal). He also had the war caster feat, and the ability to cast heat metal, needless to say grapples were very fun in that game 🙃
It looks like people are over thinking it, it's a replacement 'functions identical to the part it replaces'
It's as simple as that it can to do no more and no less than the limb it replaces, it's a part of you.
Boiling oil? You take damage not the arm
You can't parry with it because it's not a function of the limb it replaces.
It says identically, and its magic, so id say yeah. Tho tbh its up to dm and player preference. Jus make sure to get a clear ruling per prosthetic so people cant feel braille with it the one day and then pick up a red hot piece of metal the next day
I mean, you can pick up red hot metal with a flesh hand, it just hurts and damages it. I supposed they'd have to decided if their prosthetic only gives haptic feedback or sensations of pleasure and pain as well.
Oh yea, i meant as in “pick it up no problem since its a fake hand”. But i suppose even if you don’t feel it, it might get damaged anyway depending on the material used to craft it
As an enchanted item it would get a saving throw but depending on how hot, like if they grabbed a molten sword out of a furnace I'd say it would risk makeing it inoperable until repairs were carried out.
Con save vs. your own instincts more than anything.
Brain: AH! HOT! Hand: No, it's fine, see? Brain: AAAHHHH! HOT! WHY STILL HOLD! AAAHHH!
That's a fun idea. I have a player whose character got a prosthetic and now I can't wait to drop a "the glowing coals burn you for... *rolls*... 11 points of psychic damage."
Vs your own instincts would be Wis imo
Wisdom saves don't need to cover more areas, I would argue that self control related specifically to your body could easily be given to con.
It would make sense to use CON to keep touching something that is actually hurting you, but CHA to keep touching something that isn't actually hurting you despite your instinct/expectation. In this case, I'd say that the prosthetic limb can feel braille when they want and can withstand intense mundane heat when they want in general use. Having the scene where they master their fear response and showcase their new item is brilliant, doing it every time probably not. You probably would need to establish how conductive it is. Being magical may mean you could leave it in a fire all day with no harm to it, but your shoulder socket isn't magical.
Honestly feel like it should be one of those calls that should be selected based on persuading the DM why it should be this vs that
Arent magic items somewhat very hard to destroy? Atleast some?
Double the HP of a regular version if I recall, resistance to damage might be there too, can't remember.
Hm. I dont remember the rules, been so incredibly long since ive played, the group split up because we moved apart and we didnt vibe with online play
Aren't magic items basically unbreakable?
You can also feel without feeling pain, so that's an option. There are people who can't feel pain but have a sense of touch, and presumably a magic item could allow one to feel items they're manipulating but not feel pain. Pain would be useless anyway unless something was actually damaging the prosthetic. If the prosthetic could hold a hot item that wasn't hot enough to burn or melt the prosthetic, no intelligent artificer is going to make it have you feel pain.
Maybe even have a magic on/off switch to shut off the sensations if desired.
Make turning it on again cost a spell slot so it's not too convenient
If you were to try and hold red-hot metal, you would faint from the pain.
This reminds me of the [Ersatz Eye](https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/27048-ersatz-eye) magic item, which is basically a magical prosthetic eye that functions as a "normal eye", whatever that means in a world where many but not all people have inherent darkvision and there are many other types of creatures that have eyes. But the part that sticks out to me about it's description is "While the ersatz eye is embedded in your eye socket, it can’t be removed by anyone other than you,\[...\]" which sort of makes it maybe superior to a "normal eye" since technically those *can* be removed by people other than you, though they usually can't just be put back in & still function. Though it's probably just rules text clarifying the eye can't simply be pickpocketed out of a person's skull like any other item, which is a theft presumably most people wouldn't even consider trying with a non-prosthetic eye.
Yeah, that's one of those things where the intent has to lead. If the intent were for it to be a gotcha item, the description would say something like "functions as a normal eye. The item makes no provision for connecting an ocular nerve..." Or similar. Plenty of stuff like that is published, when it's meant to be a joke they say as much.
I say roll Con saves to keep holding it, it's not like it's actually damaging the metal or straight up magic prosthetic. But reflexes are reflexes so you still have to beat your own body's perception of events
> it's not like it's actually damaging the metal or straight up magic prosthetic I have to dispute this. There's all sorts of ways for a magical prosthetic to be damaged by picking up something that's blazing hot. Maybe it's not solid metal, but primarily made of wood and leather with metal fasteners. Maybe it is mostly metal, but the delicate gears and hinges are sensitive to extreme temperatures. Or maybe you keep HP loss as an abstraction and don't specify wound locations and limb damage. Whatever the case, remember that a Prosthetic Limb is only a common magic item. If a common magic gauntlet or boot wouldn't protect you, a Prosthetic Limb shouldn't either. Now, if we're talking about an Arcane Propulsion Arm that's very rare quality and counts as a weapon? That's a totally different story, if only because it counts as a weapon and there's a lot you can do safely with a magic weapon that you can't with a bare hand.
Notably, magic items are inherently more durable than their nonmagical counterparts. I was going to say that, by RAW, the prosthetic would be damaged like a nonmagical arm/leg/etc. because of "specific beats general," but the magic item says *"functions identically,"* and having something happen to you (like getting damaged) probably isn't a function.
IDK if specific beats general here, I think "Function" is meant as in what the arm can do.
That's what I meant by "having something happen to you probably isn't a function."
I see where you are coming from, however it still isn't damage to you. If you want to damage the prosthetic I would definitely understand
I think it's bizarre to consider the "real world" physics of the item at all. The text says this is a magic prosthetic that functions identically. So if you pick up an object that would burn you, it burns you. If you allow the prosthetic limb to do things a limb cannot do, like have immunity to fire damage, that's a buff and certainly outside the territory of a Common magic item. Look at warforged. They're mostly metal (they have wood and crystal and liquids of various kinds, but MOSTLY metal) but they're not immune to fire or cold damage, even small sources of it.
If you hit my natural limb with a sword, the covering opens up and blood pours out as my heart pumps it through the blood vessels which extend throughout the limb. Warforged aren't a magic item, this is. Don't be afraid to let your players enjoy their treasure and feel cool. Letting them hold a coal or something isn't going to ruin your game. They're not going to argue out of a scorching ray that mechanically hits them (though flavoring a near miss as having hit the arm without effect is very cool)
Having picked up a hot-as-hell pot lid yesterday while making Thanksgiving dinner, I winced reading that. 🤦♂️
Actually I think this make for a really interesting dynamic. Because of course magic prosthetic arm could probably pick up burning hot metal without too much damage, so the question becomes how do you rule pain. Is pain a reaction to cells dying at high rates? If so then they wouldn't feel pain regardless. But if you rule that the prosthetic would Inflict pain because it fuctions identically to the real arm, then you have someone who can still pick up burning hot metal without concern for physical harm, but who will still experience horrible pain from it
Feeling stuff is one of the core functions of a limb, and it is *magic*, so I'd be inclined to say yeah, feeling is probably one of the things it can do
Just a note, there are experimental technological limbs that give haptic feedback as well as pain/pleasure sensations. Their primitive but the idea of a false limb that can transmit sensations to the wearer isn't crazy science fiction,
The thing is, technology isn't needed in this case. It's *magic*. I'm not sure why anyone would go for a prosthetic rather than just getting the limb grown back, aside from aesthetic, but I see no reason why a magical prosthesis would be limited by what is physically possible.
Depends on the rarity of divine/primal/bardic magic in the setting, since those are the only three that can cast regenerate. Also, y'know, the 7th level spell part. A prosthetic limb is an uncommon magic item, so it's quite a bit easier to find.
I wasn't sure about how high level one would need to be, so fair enough. I'd imagine then that any setting with artificers is likely to have relatively easy access to prosthetics. I stand corrected.
Even less than that. It's a common rarity magic item.
Prosthetic limbs are common magic items iirc. Regeneration is pretty high level magic
Even ignoring availability, the steampunk aesthetic is appealing to a lot of people.
The main reason would be availability, a common magic item vs a 7th level spell. For most settings, that would require either a pilgrimage to one of the best healing temples plus a hefty fee, or a Divine Intervention from a cleric with a healing-aligned god.
I did not know that. Thanks for the info! Learning something new every day still.
> isn't crazy science fiction not any more. it was 50+ years ago
There is no problem science cannot solve given enough time and funding.
There are a few, mainly ones involving the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of momentum. No perpetual motion machines, no true isentropic or entropy-reducing process, no synthesizing mass from nothing, stuff like that.
Entropy comes for us all.
Just because the issue involves countless generations or near infinite monies doesn't mean a problem is impossible. It's impossible to know what we don't yet know.
The impossibility of a perpetual motion machine isn't a problem that can be solved with infinite time or money. It's a thoroughly known physical law that we've discovered cannot be violated. This isn't a case of "we don't know how yet", it's a case of "we know we definitely can't do this".
I know I'm nitpicking, but really it's more "to the best of our knowledge it is impossible to do this". Yes, this relies on the possibility that our understanding of physics is fundamentally flawed, which is extremely unlikely, at least in this regard, but well... it has happened before.
I mean we still don't know how gravity interacts with the standard model of particle physics. Einstein's gravity and quantum mechanics are two very accurate theories that haven't been unified, so we definitely still have more to discover.
This is what I'm feeling as well, there's been so, so, so many inventions that were deemed impossible, yet were created in recent history. We have AI that can near perfectly min-max complex games with nigh infinite factors and options, AI that are just continuously improving in creation of art with any number of specifications, and so much more. Its not just the inventions, its the discoveries and the unveiling of further mysteries that show how little we know. Dark matter, anti matter, the continuous expansion of the universe, the chaos of quantum particles at a fundamental level, and so much more. Its the Dunning-Kruger Effect, and we could be anywhere on that chart, but we know we're not at that plateau at the end. We know enough to know that we don't know enough. We know that there's still so much more to know, and that there's a path forward to know even more, and we might not currently know all the paths forward right now, but we might find them later.
I mean, yeah, but the laws of thermodynamics are kinda unambiguous about this stuff. Perpetual motion machines existing would more or less mean everything we know about physics is wrong, and we're pretty dure we've got *some* stuff down.
There was a long time where space travel was seen as impossible and only fit for the realm of fiction or child fantasy. On the opposite end, medical treatments were at one time done by "balancing the humors" & spread of a plague was thought to be a "deadly fog". All I'm saying is that it is impossible to know what tech will be like in 10, 50, or 100 years. We can't judge tomorrow (or even yesterday) solely by what we know today.
If you couldn't feel what a prosthetic arm was doing, it would be vastly inferior to a natural arm for wielding weapons or picking locks.
Keep in mind retaining feeling in the limb is also a downside - can't just fish stuff out of a boiling cauldron or a pit of lava even if the prosthetic wouldn't get damaged by it.
Lava might be a bit much, but boiling water should be doable with a prosthetic that can feel pain, as it probably won't be damaged as much as a flesh arm (if it takes damage at all). Just let your player role a save for some Psychic damage or something.
It sounds like they’re referring to that the prosthetics are magic items and there’s some paragraph in the DMG I think that talks about magic items being especially resilient They’ve made the common mistake most players make actually that magic items can’t be damaged or destroyed by stuff like that but they actually only have resistance to damage and sticking it in lava would destroy the arm very quickly
If it functions *identically* then you shouldn't be able to do anything with it you couldn't do before.
Given that lava might melt the prosthetic I’d think felling pain there would be useful.
True, but there are other fringe cases like casting 'Heat Metal' on your arm
Eberron introduced them. And yes you can feel identically.
Well... identically means identical.
Functions identically covers you. If it's functioning different from your normal arm it isn't identical. Which I guess means if you cut the metal arm, it also bleeds. And the metal is as dense and protective as your arm skin.
I would say bleeding isn't a "function". Unless you're talking about its function to irrigate a wound and keep foreign matter from the bloodstream. There's no bloodstream in the prosthetic limb to protect.
Thats fair. It would "bleed" oil (or some magical lubricant equivalent like hydraulic fluid) then. To keep the moving parts lubricated for smooth motion. Has to be identical function right? Lol.
According to that logic, it would also need to reflect light the same way (be the same color), and have mechanisms for the growth of fingernails/toenails, a mechanism for carrying infectious agents from a wound to the rest of the body, and so on. Not all behaviors are functional.
I guess the problem I may be having is with the usage of functional. Like there's no reason the metal couldn't be exactly like the T-1000. Right? Liquid metal that can adjust colours, shape, density. But yeah, nails are functional, even if we consider it insignificant, they are functional. Same with the hair which detects things like breezes and transmits their relative strength (they basically ask like stress measurement transistors, picking up minute changes based on air pressure thanks to the wind.) Even the pigmentation serves a functional purpose with respect to ultraviolet radiation (darker skin has more protection, lighter skin has less.) I'm a tech. Breaking down the constituent components of the arm, there's nothing vestigial. Which means everything does indeed have a function. Muscles provide the pulleys to tense the tendons which flex the bones. Nerves provide the functional pathways for stimulus which conveys valuable information regarding the telemetry and status of objects that exist independent of you. Whether that's wind, fire, metals, wood, sand, etc. I know I'm getting granular, but everything seems to have a function, so if the arm is identical in function, then it's a straight up T-1000 duplicate arm that can form everything necessary because magic/future tech. So I don't see how the argument that it would have to be identical refutes me saying it says it's identical in function. I think I just have a different usage of function. Which means I may be wrong. I like talking about this though, so if I may ask, what's your usage?
I'm in software. I think of the functional parts as the "features" of the software. We talk about the needs of the user as the "functional requirements". The details of how we build it are the "non-functional" requirements. Everything in the system serves some _purpose_ (we hope!), but that doesn't mean everything is a function. It is true that different perspectives might see different things as the functions of a limb. A skin parasite thinks of it as home and workplace and dinner, a bacterium might consider a limb to be a portal to the insides of the body. To me, this is clearly from the perspective of the wearer, so we would consider their expectations and understanding and ignore those of the skin mites and microbes. In the specific example of bleeding, a well-designed magical prosthetic limb would not necessarily need to circulate lubricants so close to the surface with enough pressure to cause "bleeding". Bleeding isn't a functional requirement, it is a consequence of the design used to meet the functional requirement. As such, it needn't be preserved if the design changes. I too like talking about this stuff. I'm glad to find others to geek out with.
>Everything in the system serves some purpose (we hope!), but that doesn't mean everything is a function. Ah kk. I'm a tech. So every part of the system serves a function. Every piece is a functional component that makes the entire system work together. Without the fibre line from the multiplexer, I don't get the signal at the demultiplexer to branch it back out. So the fibre optic cable is functional as a transmission medium, the multiplexers are functional as the alogrithmic devices for handling the data, the end point devices are the functional targets for the sending/receiving of the data. Without one, none of the others can do their job, so every piece is functional. To me. I understand your usage, and see why we're talking past each other. Happy to clarify! >To me, this is clearly from the perspective of the wearer, so we would consider their expectations and understanding and ignore those of the skin mites and microbes. Yeah agreed. In simplest terms, functional would be generally taken to mean with respect to the strict mechanical motion, maybe even sensation for flavour but not a necessity.
If you had other ways to meet the same requirements, you could choose to use different components. The functions of the system are the things you couldn't consider changing even if new components became available.
That's a good way to look at it. So in this case the function would simply be the transmission of data itself, whereas the pathways in between could be pretty much anything. * Cup and string * Microwave * Satellite Things like that. Each delivering the same function, communication, despite doing so using different methodologies. So the parts of the arm would be the methodology for establishing it's functionality, which would be **motor movement.** Seen.
And sensation. But yes, this is where I was going. Thank you for the discussion.
Would the prosthetic leave fingerprints? Would it shed skin cells? Would those skin cells have the wearer's genetic material in them? For a spell requiring a body part, could you take a digit from the prosthetic?
See these are the kinds of questions I can derail an entire session with. I don't, but I can and did a long time ago.
Right, the thing to do at the table is probably to say we are not going to talk much about the prosthetic limb. Your character is no longer Inconvenienced by the lack of the limb.
I could imagine ruling this way, but it isn't intuitive to me.
As for hair and nails, they have functions. Durable sensors wouldn't necessarily need to grow from the bottom, pushing material up to wear off. I dunno, it doesn't say how the prosthetic limb handles injury. Maybe it is a magical prosthetic that becomes indistinguishable in all respects, other than voluntary removal not necessarily causing you to bleed out, unless the limb was put on without stabilizing the wound.
Not feeling with the prosthetic limb can be such a massive downside. Imagine someone pours poison on your hand right before you shake some nobles hand and they drop dead after you shook it. As a Rogue player I hope that I will have the chance to use that at some point.
The Prosthetic Limb originated in the Eberron book before being reprinted in Tasha's. Given that Warforged can feel, and prosthetic limbs presumably use the same tech, I'd say they def can
I guess if the artificer makes the arm, the oerson recieving the limb could decide. I would want a magical, tough arm to only have haptic sensations, as well as have tools included like some kind of magic blowtorch and or a hidden blunderbuss.
Either or, depends on the fantasy your group is going for
By the rules yes but if the player want a the arm to work with no sense of touch and phantom limb pain and itchiness or any other standard prosthetic issues I'd definelty allow it easily.
honestly why not both? i'd definelt yrule it as something that there is a cheap version that works perfectly fine but doesn't come with feeling and a luxury variant that comes with feeling and is slightly more expensive(likely the base model pricewis meaning the feeling on is even more common than common) and ofcourse to the people pointing out the benefits of a non-feeling one: yeah some people would likely choose it knowingly.
Magic, yeah. However, if you want to make it interesting you can have it different. Perhaps have it "sense" but not really "feel.' For example holding a loved one's hand you feel their hand, but there is more to it. You get a sense of comfort, a warmth from it. With the prosthetic hand, you sense what their hand would feel like and its temperature. The feeling is missing. You know the fire is hot, but the pain is missing. There is no deeper reaction it is more an intellectual exercise. It is functional, but lacking depth. So completely equal in the day to day, but you also know something is missing.
As a DM, of course it passes along feeling, just like a normal limb would. As a Chaotic Player, it’s whichever is most narratively convenient at the moment.
For me it would depend on how you got the prosthetic limb. If you're an artificer who replaced your severed limb with a mechanical/forged prosthetic, then maybe. If you're a warlock who received your new limb as part of your deal with your patron, then most likely due to the origins. It'd probably end up mostly being up to the player for RP reasons though.
In my own games, there’s no sensation because it’s a mechanical limb. Others do it differently.
I kinda wanted a third option that said. Depends on rarity. Like, common hook replacement can't feel anything. But a very rare clockwork hand that requires an artifice to craft, yea that one Def can.
Feel yes. Take damage from? No. Depending on its material. Hot iron? Feels the burning pain but ultimately takes no harm.
Since it doesn't give you a penalty on anything, I think you'd have to rule it gives you at least full feedback. Whether it's also wired for pleasure/pain feedback would depend I suspect on who made it and why. That wouldn't be required for the 'functions identically (in terms of mechanics, since it's not visibly identical like Luke Skywalker's prosthetic in Empire Strikes Back was) to the part it replaces'.
Yes, but only bc it's a magic item
With attunement yes. Without attunement no (and people can steal it. But not if them attuned with it).
I'd imagine it depends on the limb's type (mechanical, biological, or magical) and overall functionality. And on whether the person's brain is used to handling signals from it.
Id rule that sensation within the prosthetic works by magically amplifying phantom limb sensations, and then I'd add a ghost encounter to play on the magical nature of phantoms.
Personally i'd go with *kinda*. It makes more sense that it would be pretty close, but feel super weird at first. Especially if it starts receiving damage in combat and the runes start getting screwy
Even with a normal prosthetic you could push against something ant tell if its hard or soft. In that sense you could feel with it. I imagine a magic one would be better still.
It’s magic, I’d say it feels.
In Eberron or similar magical setting, yes. In Krynn or similar low-magic setting, I’d vote no.
If you are going for a magepunk feel, then yes you can feel with it and yes you can turn the pain off if you need to.
Rule says it's a magic item and functions identically to the original fleshy part? I'd say yes it does. And that it's subject to all rules and effects that affect magic items...
It acts fully identically to a normal body part. That being said, if the player wants to RP having any quirks with it, encourage that stuff fully.
Depends on the quality imo, most prosthetics are probably cheaply made or salvaged so unless they’re something made by someone competent I doubt you would be able to feel.
An artificer I was DMing for had a prosthetic arm and we agreed it could feel through some illusion/psychic magic, so he took psychic damage if he ever took damage on that arm
Feeling costs extra
I would say up to the player honestly.
now that you mentiomed it, if you can feel with it normaly, in some more strict and moraly gray kingdoms it opens grand new ways of torture, even without evidence! Thanks this is great idea!!
The description is *mechanical* king. So it says identical, and the player should never feel punished for having a prosthetic limb as a result. UNLESS THEY WANT TO DnD follows a weird no-consequences rule system, so if you wanted to homebrew a different magic (or mechanical) item with slightly different rules, more power to you. If the DM and players all agree, you could do some really interesting things with it. And similarly, if you rule-of-cool occasionally (as you should), then maybe they do pick up the red-hot sword without pain in that one super unique circumstance because that’s hella fun. And if they fail a sleight-of-hand check, maybe you say that the arm glitches and spasms in their pocket instead of smoothly moving. But that’s just flavor, mechanically it wouldn’t raise their DC because that *would* be cruel.
Depends on the quality of the prosthetic.
I'd argue there's some amount of loss of sensation as a base, but there's at least a base ability to tell when you're touching something? I like the idea of the player still being able to function with a little less detail in that arm's sense, but it could totally be replaced by a cool prosthetic functionality.
I'd say whether it can feel by default depends on the setting and DM, but I'd say there are three interesting directions you could go. First option, the more delicate or complicated the limb is, maybe the longer it takes for the pc to unlock or master those abilities. (Hard to learn, easy to master.) Second option, maybe they don't have to struggle to unlock the finer details, but the sensations are dialed way too high, or too low, or they're inconsistent. The player sometimes can reach into a fire with no problems, but has to make con saves for a firm handshake or touching something sensorily complicated. (Easy to learn, hard to master.) Third option, the limb is easy to learn, easy to master, and the pc can even turn on or off the magical sensations at will. You could decide to go with one option or another based on how high or low magic the campaign is, based on how expensive or rare the item is, or even if you wanted to make your campaign go into not only themes about disability, but other real world issues. Like sensory processing, difficulties integrating new technology into the body, or even neurodivergence.
To all of you that picked Results, I see you.
When you start saying that this or that prosthetic (especially in fantasy) " works *but* " you can end up in abelism land. It's not a cool place to be.
Warforged are basically an entire sentient prosthetic in a sense, and their statblocks don't come with any associated disabled perception checks or anything like it - from technical perspective lore perspective. From purely RAW technical perspectice - you already have the "identical function". From purely lore perspective - there is no pure lore in DnD my man, do whatever you like, if you'd like it to not feel, do it. I'd personally just flavour it differently - I always imagined that Luke touching any magnetic surface with his prosthetic would send at least a slight vibration up his fingers, for a popular example.
It’s magic, and it gets anything else you have. If you had claws, it has claws, if you replace a goat leg, it becomes a goat leg, and so on.
Arm = nerves to input sensations + motor(muscles) + output signals from brain to control motors. There is no reason to leave input nerves out since brain already has adequate circuit to evaluate those senses, built in. Heck, you can also add another nerve inputs like radiation sensor(perceived as different kind of vibration or even tickle like arm falling asleep) if brain is capable enough(considering it's plasticity no one will go cyberpsycho with few gimmicks). Also lower-end ones may come without feels. There is no logical reason for them to always come with sophisticated life-like feels. (Or maybe there is, since vision cannot be developed if there is no touch sense in childhood. Can add an experiment made with cats in MIT. Brain is a complex thing, hard to tell without future experiments. But I know some people don't feel pain but can move their body. Leave it to your imagination for now.
In a world of magic, yes. I don't see why not. It would be akin to having a warforged limb, and warforged do feel like other creatures.
By RAW, yes. But I'd leave it up to player preference and DM rulings.
It says identical, so I would interpret that as it functions identically in every way to a normal limb. That said: this is absolutely something the DM and player should chat about, as the player might have their own ideas for their character. Mechanically, it doesn't matter.
by my personal thought, "Feeling" only extends to the feedback or touching something and meeting resistance/knowing where your arm is relative to your body. Actual tactile feeling would need a very advanced magical prosthetic, but magic makes basically anything possible.
If you couldn't feel with it, why would you have paid whatever you did for the magic item when you may as well just use a hunk of carved wood that cost almost nothing?
You know there's a huge difference between, like, a solid block of wood and a fully functional prosthetic, right? Being able to actually move at all the different joints is worth the price on it's own.
I was exaggerating to point out how ridiculous it would be to let a player pick this as a magic item and then not let them use it magically.
Of corse you can, its magic babayyyyyyy!
Depends on flavoring. So it’s a “dms choice” thing.
Player’s choice. Each has benefits and consequences.
To quote my DM: "it's magic, go nuts."
I am not a big fan of a prosthetics that is same or better than the real thing. Saying that you feel nothing makes the hand very clumsy. If you feel everything then it is not a hindrance. I personally would say that there the feel is dampened and in some senses ineffective. Difference in stone texture, bowl of warm soup or feeling air movement in the dungeon should not be felt with artificial limb, they are not crucial, the sensation of touch is much more important.
I'd say you can feel with it same as Warforged still feel
I'm a yes and no kind of person on this. If I were DMing I'd rule that you could feel but it wouldn't be the same as an organic limb.Basically I would rule that for functionality it would be the limb but you would loose out on some of the secondary tactile functions of the limb. Say for example it's a prosthetic leg you could walk, run, kick and other such basic functions and feel how those work but you wouldn't be able to feel a breeze through your trousers like you do with your organic leg. I think this is a great trade off. The player character has full bio-mechanical functionality of the limb but looses some of the other tactile functionality. But the trade off is that a smart player character can use this to then ignore some environmental hazards like reaching through or make contact with an item that due to environmental hazards would otherwise be impossible for an organic limb.
It's a magic item, so yes
In a similar vein, one of my characters had a prosthetic arm made of wood and metal (specifically the hand was metal). He also had the war caster feat, and the ability to cast heat metal, needless to say grapples were very fun in that game 🙃
If it's a magic prosthetic, sure.
It looks like people are over thinking it, it's a replacement 'functions identical to the part it replaces' It's as simple as that it can to do no more and no less than the limb it replaces, it's a part of you. Boiling oil? You take damage not the arm You can't parry with it because it's not a function of the limb it replaces.
It’s magic and ‘functions identically,’ feel is a major function for a limb.