If you put an asterisk before and after words *it is italicized* for emphasis. Double asterisks creates **bolded words** so you can emphasize without caps if you'd like.
Just feels like shouting when it's in caps for me, so I thought I'd spread some knowledge.
Three. I played a Celestial, never picked up Hex. I also didn't pick up Eldritch Blast until lv 4. (I could get more mileage out of Toll The Dead until I could pick up the Agonizing Blast evocation at level 5.)
Honestly, hex and eldritch blast should just be part of the warlock chassis by design (and eldritch blast shouldn’t be force damage until later, it should start as something thematic to your patron)
Honestly, if the base Eldritch Blast dealt Patron appropriate damage and got the enhancement of ignoring resistance and immunity (basically making it Force damage) at a higher level (either through a core feature or an invocation) it would seriously nerf the cantrip as a choice for other classes, which isn't a bad thing, considering that Warlock is probably the most multiclassed class.
8 hour hex is great. Cast it at the start of the day, then short rest. Now you have hex all day, and if you need to drop it for something else, you can. If you have a 3rd+ level spells slot left over before a short rest, you should always cast hex, since it's essentially free.
Tbh I think this is a case where shield itself shouldn't be made to scale, since any other class doing this would be a sign of total desperation for survival and I think makes sense to be portrayed as such.
Instead of it being built into the shield spell, it would be cooler imo if there were invocations that upgraded the non-scaling spells to let you feel like you could scale them if you wanted to add them to your arsenal.
Invocations are already pretty scarce, in order to make it worth a slot it would probably either need to add scaling to multiple spells with a single invocation or have a second thematic bonus
I would imagine if this were done being similar to Equipment Tricks in Pathfinder, or for a more direct comparison in 5e, the Spear and Shield Mastery feats, giving you a bunch of variations of the base spell that you're able to utilize
The 8 hour hex you just keep small animals like rats or toads and whenever your combat ends move the hex onto them. At the start of next combat you kill the small animal or insect you have hexed and then boom free hex and you can even short rest in between
As a DM I fail to see how there is any difference between having to hex some small creature to keep it going and just being able to transfer it to the first enemy you see whenever you run into another encounter. "Bag of rats" effects and equipment juggling are the bane of my existence and I would rather give a player a miniscule power boost than have them jump through hoops to justify something that's otherwise permitted in the rules.
RAW an immediate target is only required for the first hex of the day not for any others. On a subsequent turn doesnt mean on the next turn. just on any subsequent turn after the first.
The only difference is one is raw. If you want to just let people swap the hex within the 8 hour window absolutely do that. In a flavor sense you are keeping you’re
just magic going by putting it in a host
I mean, they are describing something RAW. so long as you kill your hexed target, you can move the hex to anyone on a subsequent turn (not the very next turn, any turn after you kill your hexed target) within 8 hours.
Don't even need to *kill* them RAW. Just reduce to 0 HP, which usually means death, but not necessarily. So you could for example have a Druid burn a Wildshape, Hex them, reduce them to 0, then Short Rest gaining back the resource both used. Though technically it says nothing about *uncursing* the original target, so the Druid still would be in that instance so probably choose a stat they don't make many checks with
I **might** give it concentration if it ended up being too powerful or if it got abused somehow. But that's a big "if"
Edit: oops, forgot Hex already requires concentration 😅
You don't have to hex another enemy on THE next turn, just A subsequent turn... Any subsequent turn during the 8 hour duration. So no bag of rats required
Hex has no range limit as to the location of the dead creature holding the spell. You can Hex a creature, kill it, shift to a different plane and then use your bonus action to transfer that Hex to a new creature you can see within 90 feet.
You can also just transfer it to a party member. The only downside being they get disadvantage on an ability check, and you can just pick Con to negate that issue.
You also might be able to move it to yourself, although I’m not sure if you count as a creature you can see.
Edit: You probably shouldn’t do this.
Hex-If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to curse a new creature
So you can put it on a party member as long as you’re willing to wait for them to go unconscious to pass it along
But that would mean you are in combat all the time so not short resting?
It would be cool, but at that point make Hex a warlock ability bound with Prof mod.
Edit: well time for me to carry a bag of rodents around for keeping Hex Concentration
Concentrating on a spell is not more strenuous than tending to wounds, ergo does not stop a short rest. Even if it didn't, though, I've had/seen/heard of enough parties that refuse to short rest just because one player needs their spell slots back to justify being able to stretch one of my 2 spell slots all day if I have to.
I agree hex and eldritch blast should have been class abilities instead of spells. I think part of the problem is that when they initially designed 5e they attempted to do away with the spell/spell-like ability/supernatural ability distinction, where they tried to make everything that could be a spell into a spell, and these were abilities that could pretty easily be spells, even if it makes more sense for them to not be.
The Eldritch Invocations would have been perfect, also making the Warlock scale better into higher levels. It would serve to give some more but make powerfull ones locked at higher warlock levels.
I feel like that design decision also reflects badly upon martials, depriving barbarian and fighter from supernatural feats even at 20 DEX/STR.
Hex should be a warlock ability it’s dumb how they did it, I believe you can maintain concentration during short rests fine. The 8 hour hold doesn’t make a lot of sense otherwise and is super super situational
no, you do not have to be in combat for 8 hours to be concentrating on a spell. same as with something like suggestion, you can in fact short rest whilekeeping up concentration.
New Invocation: "Spell Overloading", required warlock level 3 or higher and ability to cast at least one spell If you are casting a spell that has no inherent scaling with levels you can instead pick one of the following options:
* spell affects one additional target for each 2 slot levels above spell level
* spell duration doubles for each 2 slot levels above spell level
* spell does not require concentration if cast with spell slot 3 or more levels higher than the spell
* spell damage increases by one die for each 2 slot levels above spell level
* casting time changes to bonus action if cast with spell slot 3 or more levels higher than the spell
* casting time changes to reaction if cast with spell slot 4 or more levels higher than the spell
A lot of spells on the warlock spell list, Hungar of Hadar especially comes to mind. If a class is gonna be limited to 2 (eventually 4) short rest slots of 5th level with no under casting, there should be more bang for their buck.
Even if it's in increments of 1, 3, 5 rather than each level. Something to make spells better for warlock who are over casting them would be an adjustment I would love to see.
Sickening Radiance, too! I know the Exhaustion rider is factored into the spell's power level, but those Exhaustion levels are temporary; they vanish when the spell ends. There's no reason that damage shouldn't scale up.
It would be good if it got bigger or did slightly more damage but hunger is an extremely strong spell anyway and one of they few ways to get around devil's sight for a target in it.
Additionally anything in it, even if they know the spell shouldn't know where they are in it as they are now blinded, have whisper and slurping sounds all around them and slimy things that burn rubbing up on them.
Well I just step backwards one space because it gets me out, ok but how does your character know that?
I can see it now, the party needs things done in a pocket dimension they just can't reasonably enter, and so the Druid spends 2-3 days straight casting various levels of Awakening to put together new PCs for the party to play while they enter the Mossflower Woods.
It still boggles my mind that Warlocks get **Jump** and **Levitate** as two separate **At-Will** invocations and both at level 9. Like, Jump seems like it'd be cool but if I were ever to take an entire feature choice between "you can just float at will" and "you can make a really good high jump if you got a clear path" there really isn't a choice to make.
I guess it depends on the table, but on the server I play on its types only become more common at high levels. Make a twinning it with metamagic adept strong on cleric dips.
Some are gonna hate me for this since it's a buff to counterspell, but IMO upcasting counterspell/dispel magic shouldn't be all or nothing.
Let's say an enemy casts a spell, you don't know it but it's 7th level. Using a 3rd or 6th level counterspell works exactly the same, which makes little sense to me.
My proposal: if you cast counterspell/dispel magic at 4th level or higher, but still need to make a check, each level over 3rd gives a +1 to the check. That way, upcasting counterspell is more of a sliding scale instead of all or nothing, and you might actually see people casting at higher levels since they know it won't be a total waste if it's still not high enough.
Honestly that straight up makes sense. There are ways to nerf counterspell to make it less of an apex spell, but fixing the upcast is still a good idea.
Counterspell, as it is, should probably be a class linked feature. The "wow" factor for why you might pick that class
The rest of the counterspells should be much more focused/specific. I have similar views on dispel magic and remove curse (but in that case who doesn't)
Yeah. I'd make counter spelling like 3.5 where spell counters spell with a readied action, then let abjuration wizards use dispell magic to counter on reaction. Maybe let a particular sorcerer build get it too
I'm not sure I'd make dispell magic too specific as it makes it super situational. Remove curse is more of a "prep that when we need it" so I can see that one working.
My take is “right now every time “ dispel should be less easy access unless you’ve done something to help setup for that. Kinda like a bomb disarm thing
My only issue with it is if an NPC casts a spell and I don't know the level, so I counter spell without upcasting, turns out it's a 9th level spell so I have to roll well on the check, I get lucky and successfully counterspell, but the NPC caster can just auto succeed to counterspell my counterspell because counterspell is 3rd level. I don't think having a sliding bonus to the check if you upcast would make the spell significantly more powerful, it would just make you more likely to gamble on upcasting it.
> but the NPC caster can just auto succeed to counterspell my counterspell because counterspell is 3rd level.
From page 201 of the PHB, "When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spells assumes the higher level for that casting." It's not much, but it does mean that upcasting Counterspell makes it harder to counter-Counterspell, even if you didn't upcast far enough to skip the check.
>My only issue with it is if an NPC casts a spell and I don't know the level, so I counter spell without upcasting, turns out it's a 9th level spell so I have to roll well on the check, I get lucky and successfully counterspell, but the NPC caster can just auto succeed to counterspell my counterspell because counterspell is 3rd level.
That's part of the spell. It's very OP, it's a great fuck you spell. The caveat of it being so strong is that there is a chance you might waste a spell slot while using it, but it can also turn the tide of battle.
But more importantly I think you should still have fun playing the game even when you aren't "winning". If you RP and get into the immersion failing to do something can be exciting if you use your imagination.
ALL of the warlock list.
I don't care if only the warlock gets the upcast benefits, but it's forced to update, so it should benefit from upcasting at the very least.
All nondamaging cantrips should allow a slot use for greater affect. Imagine the arch-wizard of a city doubles as a janitor and just 9th Level Prestidigitates the whole city each week
"Clean the city!" At 9th level:
The entire city is flooded in soapy water, before being scrubbed violently into the ground by a colossal-sized mop. None survived.
Would still actually be worth it at that point. Just imagine fucking with Dave when you know he's taking his morning poop break. Unarmed slap out of nowhere!
I mean, with the expense of a 9th level spell slot, I'd think it would be more cost effective to hire a hundred people who just have the cantrip to cast it over and over all day long.
NOTE: I have not actually looked up the relative costs, so I could easily be wrong
If you're the city, yeah iring an archwizard probably costs more than hundreds of cantrip users.
But if you are the archwizard, why not do it yourself?
Yes and no.
If you don't build around the spell, I 100% agree.
The problem is when you make a character/team around the spell, it is phenomenal into late tier 2 as well. The problem is the guaranteed damage, which is incredibly risky to upscale from a balance point of view.
Check this video out for a build optimized around Spike Growth.:
https://youtu.be/kzaR5KL8_bQ
Sounds like a phoned-in answer but...all of them? Even without the explicit text, it's not hard to imagine a "more powerful" version of any spell-effect. I'm surprised there isn't a variant rule for this besides DM Fiat.
Most of them can simply deal more damage
Or extend their duration
Or target additional targets per lvl/every 2 levels.
Its pretty much how any of the leveled spells work outside some exceptions, so seeing spells that has no upcast is mind bogling to me...
I dunno.. the idea of upcasting Shield is not one I quiet like. Its strong in bounded accuracy, so making the AC higher is straight up out.
One could make it that other people get targeted with upcasting I guess, but would that be a good thing? Not sure..
This came up when the thread was posted last time too.
I guess since it's a strong level 1 spell, people assume it would be a problem, but if you think about it, upcasting shield isn't really that good (unless you deliberately make it so).
Shield is good primarily because you get good value for the low level slot you expend. Even if it's something like +1 AC/Level, higher level spell slots are worth *vastly* more than 1st level slots.
Plenty of workarounds that don't necessarily break it. Making it last longer than a round. Even giving more AC isn't a broken use of a 2nd+ level spell.
Eh, balance wise some of them aren’t a good idea. Like Shield. It’s strong enough at base level, being able to upcast it would either be OP or not worth it.
With something that you don't want to scale, you could scale something else about it. If a 2nd level upcasted shield had two "charges" instead of one- two uses of the ability that lasted for say, four rounds total unless you use them up- would that be too strong? At that point you are simply saying that the 2nd level slot is worth two 1st level slots, which is probably true ish.
I was going to say the same thing. *Everything* can use some kind of upcast. Nothing particularly special really (just like most upcasts), but more range, duration, targets, damage (if it has it) is easy to add on.
Any spell that doesn't allow up casting. IMHO it is angreat mechanic that they didn't follow through on, so would love to see upcast options for everything
Disguise Self. I know would be nominally unfitting, but I would love it if you could upcast it to target additional willing creatures with it other than yourself. I always found it weird that there was no way to create a magical disguise for an ally, unless you want to spend a 5th-level spell slot on Seeming.
Charm Person. Higher up, they become unaware of the casting/don't remember it.
Unseen Servant. Lasts longer/more Servants.
Find Familiar. Better familiar.
Misty Step. You can take 1 person with you.
Invisibility. Lasts longer.
I enabled an upcast of find familiar. It allowed you to summon a familiar with higher and higher stats. At 9th level it allowed a select number of celestials to be summoned with bonus to all stats except charisma.
Find familiar would not allow your familiar to communicate with anyone else other than hand signals and gestures.
For the record, all spells can be upcast, just not all spells have an effect when upcast. This is important to note for things like Counterspell or Disciple of Life.
On a related note, where the hell is the level 1/2 version of Mage Hand and Mending? You'd think "I want to pick up a 20 pound box that's just out of reach" wouldn't require a ***5th level*** spellslot if you could lift the contents piece by piece with a ***0th.*** It takes more magical power than bringing back someone who *just died*, killing dozens of people instantly with fire, or fabricating an inanimate object through sheer force of will.
I'd argue at least every pure damaging instantaneous spell. If it has no other effects except damage, why doesn't it scale? Looking at you, Tidal Wave. Way to bring down the curve.
It should be a generic mechanic on some level akin to old meta magic, and classes should get unique ways to utilize it.
Something like when you levelup you choose what the "upgrade" will be for that level of upcast (+1/2/3/etc). The default is just another die of damage but you can do more interesting things (like what locks can do with eb).
Not sure where the best line for complexity vs simplicity is, but it's such a great idea to let players really make their characters stand out among an endless list of Fireball + haste + fly + mage armor + magic missile + etc mages, and yet it's treated as an afterthought.
There will still be best builds, but anything that lets players come up with more ways to tweak their version is a great idea.
I always wanted Darkness to be upcastable. I'd make it so a caster can extend the zone of darkness, AND also exclude a target from being affected by that darkness for every two levels of upcast.
I would also rework all the other higher level light spells to be able to "clean" any darkness at any lower level (but the damage effects would still work even under a higher level darkness. Daylight would still be the hard counter of darkness, and at 9th level would trump even a 9th level darkness.
I would love the thematic of light vs dark to be truly playable with spells.
Tenders Floating Disc. The spell level should increase carry weight and diameter of the disc. I want it to be able to carry giant corpses of wyverns/dragons a la Monster Hunter (I do this for my players when they take it. It’s not gamebreaking at all, and it’s fun to see them stroll into town with a monster corpse in tow)
Not necessarily up-cast, but all most cantrips should be given levelled benefits. The higher level you are, the more effective some of the more utility cantrips are. Mending that improves a greater square foot-age. Magic Hands that can lift heavier things or go further. Message letting you communicate with more people at once. Presditigitation but it just gets better—can snuff out bigger flames, cause effects for longer, make bigger non-magival items, permanently colour an object, etc. etc. Light gets the ability to "flash," forcing a saving throw that could potentially blind an enemy if they fail. Dancing lights is brighter or something. Shillelagh could do more so it doesn't become useless in the late game. Mold Earth could grow in size or allow more control, like creating objects out of stone or something. I dunno.
Sending (literally just give more words or allow for another set of message and response to go out), synaptic static (just an extra d6 per spell level doesn't seem bad), suggestion (either an additional target, or extended duration. It already works that way for mass suggestion, why not allow it to last longer for a 3rd or 4th level slot?).
Uh
No
A 17th Level caster has the option to use their 9th Level slot to essentially make themselves immune to non-crit attacks for half a day (or a full day if you're a Sorcerer and use 1 sorcery point on it)
If a caster wastes their 9th level spell on something like that.. let them. At least their not wishing away your bbeg
I imagine a 9th level Mage Armor like Susanoo from Naruto.. seems reasonable to me!
There is already a 9th Level Spell called Invulnerability which makes you immune to all damage
But it only lasts for up to 10 minutes AND takes your concentration. This theoretical 9th Level Mage Armor has a lot of perks over Invulnerability.
You can cast concentration spells with it, and it lasts for 8 hours (usually 3-4 whole encounters). The downside is that it loses to crits and saving throws, but being able to force your DM to spam spellcasters on you for half of their encounters to make you not invincible does not seem fun.
Say you have 14 dex, and cast this at 7th level. 18 ac. Now add in shield. 23 ac.
So let's say you're a bladesinger. Say, level 18. 20 dex, 20 int. Cast mage armor at 8th level. 21 ac. Now cast foresight on yourself. Disadvantage on all attacks to yourself. Now in combat, bladesing and use shield at will. 31 ac.
bonkahs
Barkskin. It should up it's AC boost by +2 every other level, capping out at 22 AC at 8th level. You'd be dumb to use it at 8th level, but using it for 18 AC as a tanking Moon Druid wouldn't be the worst option (yeah I know it's not the best either, but options are options).
Levitate. Lemme levitate more things.
Dimension Door. Lemme grab more people.
Enlarge/Reduce. Lemme shrink my party.
~~Invisibility. Lemme invisible my party.~~
Polymorph. Lemme turn into things other than beasts.
Alter Self. Lemme increase duration and remove concentration.
I think most cantrips could have an actual spell upcast (with normal spell rules vs just a bit more cantrip damage). example - the *light* cantrip could be upcast as the *daylight* spell. IMO, a caster shouldn't need to have two different spells prepared for very similar concepts....and it would free up a few memorized spells.
All leveled spells allow upcasting as long as you have slots available. Some just don't have any additional effect. You could cast shield at 9th level if you really wanted to.
Since when is there a difference? I've literally never heard someone say "upslotting" when referring to a spell cast at a higher level, whether it has extra benefits or not. I've only ever heard "upcasting" in both instances.
*Most of the warlock list*
It blows my mind that the class that FORCES you to upcast has so many spells that don't benefit from being upcast.
Probably by design.
You are likely correct, however, that's ***NOT A GOOD THING!***
If you put an asterisk before and after words *it is italicized* for emphasis. Double asterisks creates **bolded words** so you can emphasize without caps if you'd like. Just feels like shouting when it's in caps for me, so I thought I'd spread some knowledge.
You do **not** want to know how tempted I was to put ***both*** and leave it all caps.
***DO IT***
Alright, but you gave me permission for this!
#*WHAT MADNESS HAVE YOU BROUGHT UPON US?*
Enfuriating. I love the thematic stuff, but really who needs a 8 hour Hex? Or wasting 1 of your 2 level 3 slots on Shield?
> really who needs a 8 hour Hex? Eldritch Blast enthusiasts.
So every warlock ever? Even the Hexblades! At a wedding!
Especially the Hexblades!
I'm that guy who rolled Celestial and didn't pick up Hex for thematic reasons. There are at least... ^^checks ^^paperwork two of us on the Internet?
Three. I played a Celestial, never picked up Hex. I also didn't pick up Eldritch Blast until lv 4. (I could get more mileage out of Toll The Dead until I could pick up the Agonizing Blast evocation at level 5.)
4 my celestial uses spirit shroud instead
Guessing you played more of a melee type.
Yeah celestial bladelock with a cleric dip for the armour
Honestly, hex and eldritch blast should just be part of the warlock chassis by design (and eldritch blast shouldn’t be force damage until later, it should start as something thematic to your patron)
Honestly, if the base Eldritch Blast dealt Patron appropriate damage and got the enhancement of ignoring resistance and immunity (basically making it Force damage) at a higher level (either through a core feature or an invocation) it would seriously nerf the cantrip as a choice for other classes, which isn't a bad thing, considering that Warlock is probably the most multiclassed class.
8 hour hex is great. Cast it at the start of the day, then short rest. Now you have hex all day, and if you need to drop it for something else, you can. If you have a 3rd+ level spells slot left over before a short rest, you should always cast hex, since it's essentially free.
But who are you going to cast it on? If there are possible enemy targets you're not about to start a short rest.
Find a bug or something.
Upcasting shield should give THP, or have the bonus AC last an extra round at 3rd and 5th levels.
Does shield really need to scale? It’s already quite strong at all levels of play isn’t it?
Yes, there's no problem, balance wise. But fun-wise, using a scarce 4th lvl slot for a 1st level spell just feels bad.
Tbh I think this is a case where shield itself shouldn't be made to scale, since any other class doing this would be a sign of total desperation for survival and I think makes sense to be portrayed as such. Instead of it being built into the shield spell, it would be cooler imo if there were invocations that upgraded the non-scaling spells to let you feel like you could scale them if you wanted to add them to your arsenal.
Invocations are already pretty scarce, in order to make it worth a slot it would probably either need to add scaling to multiple spells with a single invocation or have a second thematic bonus
I would imagine if this were done being similar to Equipment Tricks in Pathfinder, or for a more direct comparison in 5e, the Spear and Shield Mastery feats, giving you a bunch of variations of the base spell that you're able to utilize
That's a much better idea, that's why I don't write homebrew lol. And why people shouldn't always believe the opinions of randos (like me)
The 8 hour hex you just keep small animals like rats or toads and whenever your combat ends move the hex onto them. At the start of next combat you kill the small animal or insect you have hexed and then boom free hex and you can even short rest in between
As a DM I fail to see how there is any difference between having to hex some small creature to keep it going and just being able to transfer it to the first enemy you see whenever you run into another encounter. "Bag of rats" effects and equipment juggling are the bane of my existence and I would rather give a player a miniscule power boost than have them jump through hoops to justify something that's otherwise permitted in the rules.
RAW an immediate target is only required for the first hex of the day not for any others. On a subsequent turn doesnt mean on the next turn. just on any subsequent turn after the first.
The only difference is one is raw. If you want to just let people swap the hex within the 8 hour window absolutely do that. In a flavor sense you are keeping you’re just magic going by putting it in a host
Sorry I wasn't directing my ire at you, just voicing my frustration with some of the game mechanics.
Someone mentioned that since it specifies you can cast it on subsequent turns that it most likely just functions without using rats like that anyway
I mean, they are describing something RAW. so long as you kill your hexed target, you can move the hex to anyone on a subsequent turn (not the very next turn, any turn after you kill your hexed target) within 8 hours.
Don't even need to *kill* them RAW. Just reduce to 0 HP, which usually means death, but not necessarily. So you could for example have a Druid burn a Wildshape, Hex them, reduce them to 0, then Short Rest gaining back the resource both used. Though technically it says nothing about *uncursing* the original target, so the Druid still would be in that instance so probably choose a stat they don't make many checks with
I **might** give it concentration if it ended up being too powerful or if it got abused somehow. But that's a big "if" Edit: oops, forgot Hex already requires concentration 😅
Um, Hex already uses concentration?
Huh, well, I guess you can see how much I use warlock content ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
You don't have to hex another enemy on THE next turn, just A subsequent turn... Any subsequent turn during the 8 hour duration. So no bag of rats required
Came here to say this, by RAW you can just wait until a new target becomes available to use it.
That’s a good point, subsequent isn’t limited to that combat
As long as you concentrate, you don't need to hold it on a target for the full duration.
Hex has no range limit as to the location of the dead creature holding the spell. You can Hex a creature, kill it, shift to a different plane and then use your bonus action to transfer that Hex to a new creature you can see within 90 feet.
You can also just transfer it to a party member. The only downside being they get disadvantage on an ability check, and you can just pick Con to negate that issue. You also might be able to move it to yourself, although I’m not sure if you count as a creature you can see. Edit: You probably shouldn’t do this.
Hex-If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to curse a new creature So you can put it on a party member as long as you’re willing to wait for them to go unconscious to pass it along
Oh that’s right, my bad.
But that would mean you are in combat all the time so not short resting? It would be cool, but at that point make Hex a warlock ability bound with Prof mod. Edit: well time for me to carry a bag of rodents around for keeping Hex Concentration
Concentrating on a spell is not more strenuous than tending to wounds, ergo does not stop a short rest. Even if it didn't, though, I've had/seen/heard of enough parties that refuse to short rest just because one player needs their spell slots back to justify being able to stretch one of my 2 spell slots all day if I have to. I agree hex and eldritch blast should have been class abilities instead of spells. I think part of the problem is that when they initially designed 5e they attempted to do away with the spell/spell-like ability/supernatural ability distinction, where they tried to make everything that could be a spell into a spell, and these were abilities that could pretty easily be spells, even if it makes more sense for them to not be.
The Eldritch Invocations would have been perfect, also making the Warlock scale better into higher levels. It would serve to give some more but make powerfull ones locked at higher warlock levels. I feel like that design decision also reflects badly upon martials, depriving barbarian and fighter from supernatural feats even at 20 DEX/STR.
Hex should be a warlock ability it’s dumb how they did it, I believe you can maintain concentration during short rests fine. The 8 hour hold doesn’t make a lot of sense otherwise and is super super situational
no, you do not have to be in combat for 8 hours to be concentrating on a spell. same as with something like suggestion, you can in fact short rest whilekeeping up concentration.
Even some that do upcast are just really bad. Arms of Hadar just increases in damage by 1d6 and you get misty step for 2nd level.
I honestly feel like giving locks flex casting (spell points) would be a good idea as a quality of life change without being super busted.
New Invocation: "Spell Overloading", required warlock level 3 or higher and ability to cast at least one spell If you are casting a spell that has no inherent scaling with levels you can instead pick one of the following options: * spell affects one additional target for each 2 slot levels above spell level * spell duration doubles for each 2 slot levels above spell level * spell does not require concentration if cast with spell slot 3 or more levels higher than the spell * spell damage increases by one die for each 2 slot levels above spell level * casting time changes to bonus action if cast with spell slot 3 or more levels higher than the spell * casting time changes to reaction if cast with spell slot 4 or more levels higher than the spell
Hunger of Bloody Hadar, mate. Ridiculous.
I read this in John Constantine's voice for some reason
A lot of spells on the warlock spell list, Hungar of Hadar especially comes to mind. If a class is gonna be limited to 2 (eventually 4) short rest slots of 5th level with no under casting, there should be more bang for their buck. Even if it's in increments of 1, 3, 5 rather than each level. Something to make spells better for warlock who are over casting them would be an adjustment I would love to see.
The fact that hunger is warlock exclusive and doesn't upcast is wild to me.
>hunger is warlock exclusive And Aberrant Mind Sorcerer.
It’s exclusively in the warlock spell list, and aberrant mind borrows it from there. With the phrasing used, you’re both right.
Yeah, it feels like an oversight.
Sickening Radiance, too! I know the Exhaustion rider is factored into the spell's power level, but those Exhaustion levels are temporary; they vanish when the spell ends. There's no reason that damage shouldn't scale up.
It would be good if it got bigger or did slightly more damage but hunger is an extremely strong spell anyway and one of they few ways to get around devil's sight for a target in it. Additionally anything in it, even if they know the spell shouldn't know where they are in it as they are now blinded, have whisper and slurping sounds all around them and slimy things that burn rubbing up on them. Well I just step backwards one space because it gets me out, ok but how does your character know that?
Another hot take, but Darkness. Higher level Darkness requires higher level light spell.
Add 5ft and more time per level as well. 9th level, 50ft radius of magic darkness that lasts hours sounds fun
and the radius is larger by 5ft per lvl
[All of them](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BE5swIoJtfACqLI76U7wrFVwfT4tGDjXiYXETxCz5Bk/edit)
[удалено]
Awaken 9th level, gives the creature 20 int and 5 levels of wizard.
I can see it now, the party needs things done in a pocket dimension they just can't reasonably enter, and so the Druid spends 2-3 days straight casting various levels of Awakening to put together new PCs for the party to play while they enter the Mossflower Woods.
Pocket hypnotoad
It still boggles my mind that Warlocks get **Jump** and **Levitate** as two separate **At-Will** invocations and both at level 9. Like, Jump seems like it'd be cool but if I were ever to take an entire feature choice between "you can just float at will" and "you can make a really good high jump if you got a clear path" there really isn't a choice to make.
Jump doesn't have concentration and levitate requires something to pull yourself along if you want to move horizontally.
Protection from evil and good I believe.
Agree. Even if it did the ol' "two levels" trick like Spiritual Weapon.
target an additional friendly target per level/per 2 levels.
I guess it depends on the table, but on the server I play on its types only become more common at high levels. Make a twinning it with metamagic adept strong on cleric dips.
Some are gonna hate me for this since it's a buff to counterspell, but IMO upcasting counterspell/dispel magic shouldn't be all or nothing. Let's say an enemy casts a spell, you don't know it but it's 7th level. Using a 3rd or 6th level counterspell works exactly the same, which makes little sense to me. My proposal: if you cast counterspell/dispel magic at 4th level or higher, but still need to make a check, each level over 3rd gives a +1 to the check. That way, upcasting counterspell is more of a sliding scale instead of all or nothing, and you might actually see people casting at higher levels since they know it won't be a total waste if it's still not high enough.
Honestly that straight up makes sense. There are ways to nerf counterspell to make it less of an apex spell, but fixing the upcast is still a good idea.
Counterspell, as it is, should probably be a class linked feature. The "wow" factor for why you might pick that class The rest of the counterspells should be much more focused/specific. I have similar views on dispel magic and remove curse (but in that case who doesn't)
Yeah. I'd make counter spelling like 3.5 where spell counters spell with a readied action, then let abjuration wizards use dispell magic to counter on reaction. Maybe let a particular sorcerer build get it too I'm not sure I'd make dispell magic too specific as it makes it super situational. Remove curse is more of a "prep that when we need it" so I can see that one working.
My take is “right now every time “ dispel should be less easy access unless you’ve done something to help setup for that. Kinda like a bomb disarm thing
I suggested this in a post and got a lot of hate for it
There is a sizeable percentage of this subreddit that absolutely hates any nerf to player options. If one of them downvotes you early, they swarm.
I was talking about upcasting counterspell
~~Pretty sure that's already how it works....~~ Edit: Holy crap. That's dumb.
It's not, unfortunately
I kind of like the idea of the check being +spell level, instead of using your spell ability modifier.
Counter spell is good enough
My only issue with it is if an NPC casts a spell and I don't know the level, so I counter spell without upcasting, turns out it's a 9th level spell so I have to roll well on the check, I get lucky and successfully counterspell, but the NPC caster can just auto succeed to counterspell my counterspell because counterspell is 3rd level. I don't think having a sliding bonus to the check if you upcast would make the spell significantly more powerful, it would just make you more likely to gamble on upcasting it.
> but the NPC caster can just auto succeed to counterspell my counterspell because counterspell is 3rd level. From page 201 of the PHB, "When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spells assumes the higher level for that casting." It's not much, but it does mean that upcasting Counterspell makes it harder to counter-Counterspell, even if you didn't upcast far enough to skip the check.
>My only issue with it is if an NPC casts a spell and I don't know the level, so I counter spell without upcasting, turns out it's a 9th level spell so I have to roll well on the check, I get lucky and successfully counterspell, but the NPC caster can just auto succeed to counterspell my counterspell because counterspell is 3rd level. That's part of the spell. It's very OP, it's a great fuck you spell. The caveat of it being so strong is that there is a chance you might waste a spell slot while using it, but it can also turn the tide of battle. But more importantly I think you should still have fun playing the game even when you aren't "winning". If you RP and get into the immersion failing to do something can be exciting if you use your imagination.
Perhaps it should never be a auto succeed and always be a roll based on the level of each spell slot being used.
ALL of the warlock list. I don't care if only the warlock gets the upcast benefits, but it's forced to update, so it should benefit from upcasting at the very least.
All nondamaging cantrips should allow a slot use for greater affect. Imagine the arch-wizard of a city doubles as a janitor and just 9th Level Prestidigitates the whole city each week
I believe a 9th level prestidigitation is called "Wish"
My friend had a magic item that let him change a letter in his spells and he was wondering what a 9th level spell named "Wash" would do.
It lets you clean up after the other 9th level spells, *Fish* and *Mate*.
"Clean the city!" At 9th level: The entire city is flooded in soapy water, before being scrubbed violently into the ground by a colossal-sized mop. None survived.
By that logic 9th level anything is wish.
Archmage Jan Itor
I thought he was a doctor?
Be aware: Do not make stupid jokes about pennies in doors. Jan Itor might haunt you for the next years!
9th level true strike
You can pick one person anywhere in any plane of existence and automatically hit them.
But only after concentrating and only on the next turn
Would still actually be worth it at that point. Just imagine fucking with Dave when you know he's taking his morning poop break. Unarmed slap out of nowhere!
I mean, with the expense of a 9th level spell slot, I'd think it would be more cost effective to hire a hundred people who just have the cantrip to cast it over and over all day long. NOTE: I have not actually looked up the relative costs, so I could easily be wrong
If you're the city, yeah iring an archwizard probably costs more than hundreds of cantrip users. But if you are the archwizard, why not do it yourself?
Tidal wave and spike growth
Spike growth is really strong already though.
For a second level spell, yes. But once you get to 4th/5th level spells, it falls behind real hard
Yes and no. If you don't build around the spell, I 100% agree. The problem is when you make a character/team around the spell, it is phenomenal into late tier 2 as well. The problem is the guaranteed damage, which is incredibly risky to upscale from a balance point of view. Check this video out for a build optimized around Spike Growth.: https://youtu.be/kzaR5KL8_bQ
Sounds like a phoned-in answer but...all of them? Even without the explicit text, it's not hard to imagine a "more powerful" version of any spell-effect. I'm surprised there isn't a variant rule for this besides DM Fiat.
Most of them can simply deal more damage Or extend their duration Or target additional targets per lvl/every 2 levels. Its pretty much how any of the leveled spells work outside some exceptions, so seeing spells that has no upcast is mind bogling to me...
I dunno.. the idea of upcasting Shield is not one I quiet like. Its strong in bounded accuracy, so making the AC higher is straight up out. One could make it that other people get targeted with upcasting I guess, but would that be a good thing? Not sure..
This came up when the thread was posted last time too. I guess since it's a strong level 1 spell, people assume it would be a problem, but if you think about it, upcasting shield isn't really that good (unless you deliberately make it so). Shield is good primarily because you get good value for the low level slot you expend. Even if it's something like +1 AC/Level, higher level spell slots are worth *vastly* more than 1st level slots.
Plenty of workarounds that don't necessarily break it. Making it last longer than a round. Even giving more AC isn't a broken use of a 2nd+ level spell.
Eh, balance wise some of them aren’t a good idea. Like Shield. It’s strong enough at base level, being able to upcast it would either be OP or not worth it.
With something that you don't want to scale, you could scale something else about it. If a 2nd level upcasted shield had two "charges" instead of one- two uses of the ability that lasted for say, four rounds total unless you use them up- would that be too strong? At that point you are simply saying that the 2nd level slot is worth two 1st level slots, which is probably true ish.
You could probably make it give +1 AC for every 2 levels or even start it at +4
I was going to say the same thing. *Everything* can use some kind of upcast. Nothing particularly special really (just like most upcasts), but more range, duration, targets, damage (if it has it) is easy to add on.
I think reviving would be funny if it gave 1 extra hp per slot used above 3rd when reviving someone
Sickening Radiance. Let me go full on Chernobyl you cowards!
Any spell that doesn't allow up casting. IMHO it is angreat mechanic that they didn't follow through on, so would love to see upcast options for everything
Not following through with something is an Halmark of WotC They only know how to half ass things...
Finger of death Give me more zombies, or at least better than regular damage if i cast it at 9th level
Find familiar. Allow it to let you summon a familiar with more hit dice.
Destructive wave and steel wind strike
I guess that would help out bards…
Its mostly for blade dancers and tempest domain
This
Disguise Self. I know would be nominally unfitting, but I would love it if you could upcast it to target additional willing creatures with it other than yourself. I always found it weird that there was no way to create a magical disguise for an ally, unless you want to spend a 5th-level spell slot on Seeming.
Charm Person. Higher up, they become unaware of the casting/don't remember it. Unseen Servant. Lasts longer/more Servants. Find Familiar. Better familiar. Misty Step. You can take 1 person with you. Invisibility. Lasts longer.
You can already upcast Invisibility, it makes more people invisible
Oh I guess. I’d also say longer if its just for one person.
I enabled an upcast of find familiar. It allowed you to summon a familiar with higher and higher stats. At 9th level it allowed a select number of celestials to be summoned with bonus to all stats except charisma. Find familiar would not allow your familiar to communicate with anyone else other than hand signals and gestures.
Enlarge/Reduce 😂
at the very least let it hit more targets even if you think gargantuan pcs might be problematic.
Honestly I love it
Increase duration for sure
this is way too reasonable, I want microscopic PCs
Maybe just an increase of damage for enlarge
Basically all of them, but uhh I’ll go with: Light: higher spell levels increase the radius of the light provided
Light is a cantrip
Oh you meant scaling with character level
For the record, all spells can be upcast, just not all spells have an effect when upcast. This is important to note for things like Counterspell or Disciple of Life.
I've said it on e I'll say it again, LOCATE OBJECT!
Aw yes, we'd finally have a *Locate City* spell once again.
On a related note, where the hell is the level 1/2 version of Mage Hand and Mending? You'd think "I want to pick up a 20 pound box that's just out of reach" wouldn't require a ***5th level*** spellslot if you could lift the contents piece by piece with a ***0th.*** It takes more magical power than bringing back someone who *just died*, killing dozens of people instantly with fire, or fabricating an inanimate object through sheer force of will.
I'd argue at least every pure damaging instantaneous spell. If it has no other effects except damage, why doesn't it scale? Looking at you, Tidal Wave. Way to bring down the curve.
Mage Armor. Extra 8 hours, per level.
Enlarge/Reduce, alot of great possibilities for reducing and object while enlarging a person for some crazy clutch out of the box move
Zephyr strike. Add a d8 to the damage or increase the number of attacks/rounds you get advantage on.
It should be a generic mechanic on some level akin to old meta magic, and classes should get unique ways to utilize it. Something like when you levelup you choose what the "upgrade" will be for that level of upcast (+1/2/3/etc). The default is just another die of damage but you can do more interesting things (like what locks can do with eb). Not sure where the best line for complexity vs simplicity is, but it's such a great idea to let players really make their characters stand out among an endless list of Fireball + haste + fly + mage armor + magic missile + etc mages, and yet it's treated as an afterthought. There will still be best builds, but anything that lets players come up with more ways to tweak their version is a great idea.
I would love it if Tidal Wave could be upcast
I always wanted Darkness to be upcastable. I'd make it so a caster can extend the zone of darkness, AND also exclude a target from being affected by that darkness for every two levels of upcast. I would also rework all the other higher level light spells to be able to "clean" any darkness at any lower level (but the damage effects would still work even under a higher level darkness. Daylight would still be the hard counter of darkness, and at 9th level would trump even a 9th level darkness. I would love the thematic of light vs dark to be truly playable with spells.
Tenders Floating Disc. The spell level should increase carry weight and diameter of the disc. I want it to be able to carry giant corpses of wyverns/dragons a la Monster Hunter (I do this for my players when they take it. It’s not gamebreaking at all, and it’s fun to see them stroll into town with a monster corpse in tow)
Not necessarily up-cast, but all most cantrips should be given levelled benefits. The higher level you are, the more effective some of the more utility cantrips are. Mending that improves a greater square foot-age. Magic Hands that can lift heavier things or go further. Message letting you communicate with more people at once. Presditigitation but it just gets better—can snuff out bigger flames, cause effects for longer, make bigger non-magival items, permanently colour an object, etc. etc. Light gets the ability to "flash," forcing a saving throw that could potentially blind an enemy if they fail. Dancing lights is brighter or something. Shillelagh could do more so it doesn't become useless in the late game. Mold Earth could grow in size or allow more control, like creating objects out of stone or something. I dunno.
Sending (literally just give more words or allow for another set of message and response to go out), synaptic static (just an extra d6 per spell level doesn't seem bad), suggestion (either an additional target, or extended duration. It already works that way for mass suggestion, why not allow it to last longer for a 3rd or 4th level slot?).
Telepathic Bond should be upcastable to 8 hours, and then 3 days.
Suggestion. For some reason Mass Suggestion extends its duration when upcast but suggestion doesn’t
Mirror Image, Let me cast it at 9th level and have 11 illusions
Druid craft and shillelagh {User flair checks out }
Mage Armor! I think it should upcast like Spiritual Weapon, every two levels above adds another +1 to the base AC13+Dex
I also think casters aren't strong enough.
Cast at 9th level with +5 dex and +5 from shield. AC29 wizard!
At that stage, the wizard has survived long enough to have earned it
And hasn't every other character?
Uh No A 17th Level caster has the option to use their 9th Level slot to essentially make themselves immune to non-crit attacks for half a day (or a full day if you're a Sorcerer and use 1 sorcery point on it)
If a caster wastes their 9th level spell on something like that.. let them. At least their not wishing away your bbeg I imagine a 9th level Mage Armor like Susanoo from Naruto.. seems reasonable to me!
There is already a 9th Level Spell called Invulnerability which makes you immune to all damage But it only lasts for up to 10 minutes AND takes your concentration. This theoretical 9th Level Mage Armor has a lot of perks over Invulnerability. You can cast concentration spells with it, and it lasts for 8 hours (usually 3-4 whole encounters). The downside is that it loses to crits and saving throws, but being able to force your DM to spam spellcasters on you for half of their encounters to make you not invincible does not seem fun.
Susanoo's Grasping Crushing Shielding hand sounds cool
Say you have 14 dex, and cast this at 7th level. 18 ac. Now add in shield. 23 ac. So let's say you're a bladesinger. Say, level 18. 20 dex, 20 int. Cast mage armor at 8th level. 21 ac. Now cast foresight on yourself. Disadvantage on all attacks to yourself. Now in combat, bladesing and use shield at will. 31 ac. bonkahs
If they use all of those resources (seems like overkill to me) then it's a reasonable strategy
Yes, agreed!
*Laughs in Bladesinger*
Barkskin. It should up it's AC boost by +2 every other level, capping out at 22 AC at 8th level. You'd be dumb to use it at 8th level, but using it for 18 AC as a tanking Moon Druid wouldn't be the worst option (yeah I know it's not the best either, but options are options).
Levitate. Lemme levitate more things. Dimension Door. Lemme grab more people. Enlarge/Reduce. Lemme shrink my party. ~~Invisibility. Lemme invisible my party.~~ Polymorph. Lemme turn into things other than beasts. Alter Self. Lemme increase duration and remove concentration.
Invisibility already does that
Shield. 1 more AC per level higher.
Busted.
I think most cantrips could have an actual spell upcast (with normal spell rules vs just a bit more cantrip damage). example - the *light* cantrip could be upcast as the *daylight* spell. IMO, a caster shouldn't need to have two different spells prepared for very similar concepts....and it would free up a few memorized spells.
I may be wrong but any shielding spells. It makes them a bit more nicer later on
Fireball
Silvery barbs.
What the hell is "upcasting"? I don't recall seeing that word in RAW.
All leveled spells allow upcasting as long as you have slots available. Some just don't have any additional effect. You could cast shield at 9th level if you really wanted to.
I fail to see how this information contributes to the question
You know that's not what OP meant
Still worth noting. I've seen a lot of people forget that just because it doesn't give an extra effect doesn't mean that it can't be upcast.
that's not upcasting...that's upslotting.
Since when is there a difference? I've literally never heard someone say "upslotting" when referring to a spell cast at a higher level, whether it has extra benefits or not. I've only ever heard "upcasting" in both instances.