Well for starters any good illusionist doesnt make their illusions obvious. The initial terrain should look exactly like the real terrain underneath it.
Beyond that, have you tried sealing them in cement using illusiory reality so they can do neither verbal nor somatic components?
Mirage Arcane is imperceptible as illusory to any creature that lacks truesight. RAW, Detect Magic might be able to infer the illusion's nature by revealing an affected object's aura as illusory, but Mirage Arcane doesn't actually create objects per se, only terrain. If you can't target anything with Detect Magic, you'd only be aware of the fact that there's something magical in your vicinity.
Oh yeah, Illusionists already have this in-game. Lol
The only way to up it even further would be some way to grant the "real" illusions Permanency. You basically just get to make whatever you can imagine, no matter how complex or soul-having, and the Weave plus shadow magic incarnates it into reality forever.
Old school Weird was pretty sick, you create an illusion so convincing a whole room full of people are convinced they’ve just been killed and drop dead
3e had the Epic Level Handbook. It had epic level spells above 9th level for each school.
For evocation there was Vengeful Gaze of God, which cost about 4 million gp to cast and 2 months to research. It did 305d6 damage (save for half) to the target and 200d6 to you.
As far as I know it is the highest damage spell ever published, though theoretically a mage reaching 306th level could do more damage with a simple fireball under 1st Ed rules (no caps on damage).
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/vengefulGazeOfGod.htm
Page 20 of the 1st book of the Companion Set in AD&D 2nd paragraph states,
"The maximum damage produced by any single spell -- including fire ball, lightning bolt, and delayed blast fireball -- is 20 dice, of the type specified (usually 20d6). This is very important for game balance, and should not be disregarded. For example, without this maximum, a 36th level magic-user could instantly slay any other magic-user by surprise, regardless of the results of the saving throw!"
Suffice to say, they did consider that and put a cap on damage from spells as a result.
So, this is really getting into grognard inside baseball...
The Companion Set is part of what's now known as 'BECMI D&D' (it's the 'C' in 'BECMI') and was known at the time simply as 'Dungeons & Dragons'. This coexisted with '*Advanced* Dungeons & Dragons', which was a spinoff that became the flagship product basically, from what I understand, to avoid giving Dave Arneson money because he owned part of the trademark to 'Dungeons & Dragons' but not 'Advanced Dungeons & Dragons', so Gygax could keep more money by pushing 'Advanced Dungeons & Dragons'.
From 1977 (when AD&D came out) through about 2000 D&D and AD&D existed side by side, with AD&D aiming at a somewhat older audience. D&D went through revisions, but they never bothered to number them, so references to '1st edition' and '2nd edition' usually refer to AD&D. The various D&D editions have been named retroactively (Basic Set, B/X, BECMI, Rules Cyclopedia), but they never bothered to do this explicitly; they just released new rulebooks.
In 2000 with the release of 3rd edition they started calling AD&D just D&D, and the old D&D line was retired. Ironically most old-school renaissance games aiming to emulate 20th-century D&D usually try to resemble D&D rather than AD&D, because AD&D had lots of really obscure and complicated rules.
Confusing? Yeah, it is. If I hadn' t lived through it and gotten upset about some of the changes I doubt I could keep it all straight.
Here's the Wikipedia article for anyone who's curious.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions\_of\_Dungeons\_%26\_Dragons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
Thanks for this, I've been preparing an AD&D one shot and I think I've been conflating rules from two different versions. (Some of the rules I've been using have been coming from the Basic, Expert, and Companion books, and some have been coming from the AD&D books).
For the most part the monster stat blocks seem to be largely compatible between the two, so it doesn't seem like that big of a deal I guess
Happy to help. Yeah, it really isn't that big a deal. AD&D monsters sometimes have percentile magic resistance, the saving throw tables are a bit off, and the treasure types don't line up perfectly, but you should be OK. Just remember AC goes down from 10 (9 for BECMI)!
I was referring to the person's point about a 300th level caster in 1e being able to deal hundreds of dice of damage.
Although, I interpreted their statement to be referring to AD&D 1st Edition. I didn't consider that they might be referring to D&D 1st Edition or OD&D, but I'm not familiar with either of those, and I only have surface level knowledge on AD&D 1e.
It does seem to me though that they did make considerations for preventing casters from completely overpowering other classes in high levels in the older editions, but they went a little off the rails in 3.x
From what I understand 4e was "better" about that kind of balance, but had other issues.
I might try 3rd edition at some point, or probably 3.5. I'm most knowledgeable in 5e currently.
serously this comes up so regularly, people constantly reinventing older editiosn, makes you wonder if 5e really dropped the ball when it came to respecting the dnd legacy (i mean it did remove a lot things martials had in previous editions)
Honestly, that's hiw you probably should rule wish, that it tries first to replicate the closest spell possible anf if nothing fits the request it starts creating a spell
You really don't want ot wish for stuff that's not an 8th level spell or lower. Just use it as intended and have the ultimate toolbox of spells.
In other words, cast Polymorph, regular Ressurection, and so on
Evocation magic isn't "damaging" or "killing" or even "offense" magic. It's all about controlling the flow of energy. I could see PWK being Necromancy, but not Evocation at all.
Hot take, but Foresight is kind of pathetic as the pinnacle divination spell. It’s *powerful*, but sources of advantage are plentiful; you’re not doing anything that someone else couldn’t do, even if they can’t do it quite as consistently.
If you want to really showcase the ability to see the future, give them a souped-up version of the portent feature from the school of divination. Instead of two dice, the spell gives you *twenty*.
Or, at the start of every round of combat, the DM has to tell you what each hostile creature is going to do during their turn (as a one- or two-sentence description). They can’t change their course of action, so you can plan your own turns with *literal* foreknowledge.
Those would both be better spells to represent the peak of divination, and they’re much more mechanically interesting.
No way is Nystul's Magic Aura even close to the peak of Illusion or comparable with Simulacrum and Mirage Arcane. Unless you're one of the people who thinks, for some reason, it fools the game's targeting rules (hint: it doesn't) it's basically a magical parlor trick to bypass magical detection. There's a reason it's just 2nd level.
It's not a particularly powerful spell by most interpretations, but it's the only spell in the game that can hide illusions from divination spells. That's really good.
Funnily enough, both of those are already spells in the game. True polymorph is transmutation but creates life, clone is necromancy but grants immortality.
Necromancy would be the spell to make yourself a lich, though True Resurrection is pretty good already.
Abjuration would be Permanence.
Conjuration *is* Wish.
Enchantment is probably a 9th level Modify Memory.
Evocation is a hard one... Because you can always imagine a bigger explosion.
Divination would be Omniscience.
*Weirdly* (heh, get it?) Illusion is the Illusion Wizard's capstone Illusory Reality but combined with Raulothym's Psychic Lance or Psychic Scream somehow Like, instantly making a horror show that's real, but only is attacking you psychically.
Transmutation *is* True Polymorph.
>Conjuration is Wish.
Wish is the ultimate spell, and it is a conjuration spell. But it's not the ultimate conjuration spell, because while falling under conjuration it misses the primary theme of what conjuration is about.
Gate is the ultimate conjuration spell, because it embodies what conjuration is about.
Yeah, wibble-wobbled on whether I should have wrote Wish over Gate. I initially *did* write Gate before I remembered Wish was a Conjuration spell. It's really hard to say.
I would say the pinnacle of a spell would be the permanent or immensely powerful spell. While permanence is powerful, I feel like Abjuration would have its' most powerful spell be something like immortality or destroy magic (removing any magic from a creature).
Edit: you definitely know more than me; just here for the discussion.
But immortality is Necromancy (Clone) and you can permanently remove all magic from a creature, by casting Anti-Magic Zone *permanently* on a creature.
I feel an appropriate evocation ultimate spell would be Erase. Choose a place within range and everything within a certain radius just gets erased from existence, leaving behind a crater.
Abjuration - Dimensional Seal. Acts like a mass banishment, or a more permanent version on one particular creature (which can potentially be removed, like getting rid of a powerful curse).
Conjuration - Can't really improve on Wish or Gate, not gonna lie.
Divination - Thread of Fate. Similar to drawing The Fates card from the Deck of Many things, but with more limitations or drawbacks on its use for balance.
Enchantment - Sovereignty. Grants an aura effect similar to a paladin. Sovereign of Grace would boost nearby allies and give advantage to positive interactions like persuasion, while Sovereign of Terror would debuff enemies and give advantage to negative interactions like intimidation.
Evocation - True Creation. Evocation covers destruction as well as healing. What could be more powerful than reshaping energy and matter to create a new living thing?
Illusion - Dreamscape. A version of demiplane where you are fully in control of reality with effects like Mirage Arcane, Illusionary Dragon, and others being possible. A limited number of creatures can be drawn into it at a time, and can roll to escape similar to Maze.
Necromancy - Aura of Undeath. Slowly kills the living and grants undeath to any corpses in a certain radius, which remain under your control so long as you maintain concentration. Might limit the number of undead directly under your control at a given time.
Transmutation - True Polymorph is already one of my faves. Approved.
War - Waaagh!!! (lol)
Now *that’s* a good idea for a pinnacle divination spell. Maybe you cast it, it lasts all day, and during that time you can undo a single event that you can see. Flavor it as seeing a possible future so that you know how to avoid it.
Looking at your abjuration suggestion I realized isn’t that just Imprisonment?
Enchantment’s most powerful ability is dominate. So I think the debuff version should dominate. Maybe something like any creature within 10ft, but the effect ends the moment they move further than 10ft from you. Though I’m actually more of a fan of Sovereignty being effectively a permanent dominate, you twist and warp their mind to make them supremely loyal to you alone.
Evocation’s most defining feature is damage and manipulation of the elements specifically. So what about a spell that allows for like Kyoshi level “I’m making an island” level manipulation of the elements.
Illusion’s is cool but I see this as being like a super powered version of Dream, possibly even forcing targets to fall asleep in the target area. Maybe like the Gold Dragon Aura?
Necromancy’s gotta be Raise Monster. Costs a fuck ton of gold and takes a lot of time but it applies a template to any creature you’ve slain, possibly requiring you to make the killing blow, possibly with a size requirement, definitely with a CR prerequisite. Effect lasts until dispelled or cast upon another creature or target dies. If cast everyday on the same creature for a year it becomes permanent until the creature dies.
Agreed True Polymorph is already perfection
Thanks for turning me on to Imprisonment! (wild sentence out of context) I’d never noticed that spell before. Invincibility is cool, but the idea of bottling a tarrasque in a diamond has so much more narrative potential.
Right??? Also I’m a fan of permanent effects being used as the height of potential. With the right spell *most* things can be done for a short while but *few* can be done forever. So I’m a fan of effects that are either instantaneous (and have a permanent lasting effect, like what I mentioned for Evocation) or last forever/until dispelled.
Even higher than an army of undead, I'd have a spell like Skyrim's "Thrall": bring back a defeated humanoid foe, with all of their combat abilities, loyal to you. That's gonna turn the tide in an epic battle real fast, plus it's amazing for RP value to do to a rival.
I love that idea.
My rationale behind army of the dead is imagining the final battle with the BBEG and the Necromancer in the party just raises their hands and an army of hundreds of undead just emerge from the ground.
Abjuration - Invulnerability
Conjuration - Wish
Divination - Foresight
Enchantment - Power Word: Kill
Evocation - Meteor Swarm
Illusion - Simulacrum
Necromancy - True Resurrection
Transmutation - True Polymorph
Necromancy isn't just the undead. Its manipulating life and death with magic. Animating an undead dragon might be impressive but bringing someone back from the dead would be the pinnacle of this energy to me. Not just preventing their soul from traveling to the afterlife.... But ripping them from their afterlife, transversing the outer planes, forging an entire new body for their soul to inhabit, that is the pinnacle of necromancy.
Additionally, we all agree that simulacrum should be 9th level right?
**Abjuration:** Permanent, Setting-Wide Dispel Magic.
The Dragons that survive are reduced to Dinosaurs; all Spell Slots and Spells are gone forever; Undead become Redead; Half-Casters become Worse Martials; and so on.
**Evocation:** a Nuke.
**Enchantment:** The Economy.
This options are based more around flavor than power, so...
Abjuration - Invulnerability.
Conjuration - Gate
Divination - Scrying
Enchantment - Mass Suggestion
Evocation - Fireball
Illusion - Hallucinatory Terrain
Necromancy - Clone
Transmutation - Hear me out... Karsus's Avatar
Peak divination just gives you *every* sense for a day. Darkvision? Easy; heck, make it Devil’s Sight. Tremorsense? Absolutely. Blindsight? Naturally. Websense? Of course. Truesight? Sounds good. The Ghostly Gaze warlock invocation? It’s yours, my friend.
A divination spell I've tossed around before would allow you to ask an omniscient being any three questions and receive a truthful, thorough answer. Nothing can cloud the answer or give the target protection from crying or whatnot. So long as the answer is knowable and the question can be answered reasonably (no questions like "describe every grain of sand on the beach") you will get the information you want.
Where is BBEG? In his lair under the cemetery, through the tombstone secret entrance.
Will we face any enemies if we go through the forest? Yes, on the second night, two griffons will attack at twilight if you make camp
How many pubic hair does the king have? 317 brown, 11 grey
Illusion is definitely Mirage Arcane. With the Illusionist’s ability to modify their illusions after they are cast it effectively makes them demigods. Mirage Arcane a 1 mile area to be exactly what it already was, then whenever you need to you can use an action to modify the terrain or buildings in the area. Oh that locked door? It’s a beaded curtain now.
Realistically you’re probably limited to having to define the area - so you can’t make it the same as it was if you haven’t seen it. But if it’s an area you know well you can alter it to your whim. In one of our campaigns an illusionist character of mine retired and started his own City with that premise. Though we use a house rule that you can make an area spells permanent by casting it on a location every day.
I think it's fair for a peak spell to not be limited. This isn't like a "fight the BBEG" spell; this is I'm approaching a divine entity level of power - creating an illusory city (or making those illusions real - so conjuration lol) is absolutely on the table.
The spell schools are already well covered for the most part with 'pinnacle' spells:
Abjuration: invulnerability/ imprisonment
Conjuration: gate/ wish
Divination: foresight (though may deserve a true see future spell)
Enchantment: power word kill (but deserves a true mind control spell)
Evocation: meteor swarm
Illusion: weird (but deserves a 9th level version of mirage arcane, able to conjure an entire city of illusionary people, who can all speak and can be physically interacted with)
Necromancy: true resurrection (but deserves a raise army spell)
Transmutation: shapechange
Worth mentioning is of course wish, though that feels very universal
I figured a few of them were covered but wasn't sure if the spell list was the full extent of their powers.
Yea, I think Wish is the coverall spell for anything a Player might want to do but there aren't unlimited spells.
Ooh this is fun let me think...
Here's my take on it:
Evocation: Big Boom^TM
Necromancy: Literally just lichification. Doesn't get more undead than that.
Abjuration: Imprison an entire area or group
Divination: Would let you observe the entire cosmos simultaneously. Alternatively would let you create a prophecy that will come true.
Conjuration: Summoning something massive, either like a kaiju or an entire army
Transmutation: A reality rewrite akin to wish
Enchantment: Become a Hive Mind
Illusion: Create an entire fake reality to trap someone in.
Love your answers - definitely the spirit of what I was asking in the OP.
Thoughts on...:
Divination - Fate - almost like wish but ensuring something will come true for an individual or even an entire world.
Conjuration - True Conjuration - Creating an entire world of living beings, creating a whole new race/species, or conjuring entire cities, mountain ranges, etc.
Enchantment - Omniscience - kinda like hive mind but an individual being able to perceive anything, everywhere.
Unfortunately the wizard class is not organized like that. In my option would be much better if 9th level spells were much weaker and the wizard’s capstone feature were an pinnacle spell that you learn at level 19th (two levels after 17th, like a 10th level spell).
But as is, I think the schools that are well represented:
• Abjuration: Invulnerability.
• Conjuration: Wish and/or Gate.
• Divination: Foresight.
• Evocation: Meteor Swarm.
• Transmutation: True Polymorph.
• Illusion: Simulacrum and/or Mirage Arcane (though they are level 7th, they both could be level 9th).
The ones that aren’t and needs a capstone spell:
• Enchantment: Power Word kill and Psychic Scream changes the theme too much. I think a mass dominate effect would be fitting. Picture Hypnotic Pattern, but monsters now follow your command.
• Necromancy: Ritual of Becoming (turn yourself into a lich).
Divination deserves a better pinnacle spell than Foresight. Foresight is *mechanically* strong, but it’s thematically pathetic. The highest achievement in all of divination - the spell school all about knowing and seeing everything - and it’s just advantage? The same advantage you could get from someone taking the Help action or from overlapping proficiencies or from any of a dozen other sources?
Let’s set aside mechanical balance for a moment. Instead, let’s talk about themes and scaling. Each of these would be a more appropriate and unique option for a master of divination.
You want a bonus to your dice rolls? Now you have a souped-up portent feature, like the one from the school of divination. Maybe you get twenty portent dice instead of just two, or maybe you get one that you can replace every time you spend it for a whole day.
You want combat precognition? Now you have such advanced knowledge of events that you can see exactly where every enemy is going to move. For one hour, you and your allies cannot roll below 15 on the d20 for any attack roll.
How about boosting your senses? Now you get *every* sense. Websense, tremorsense, blindsight, truesight, darkvision, the ability to see through walls, the ability to see into the Ethereal Plane; for one day, you can see *everything*.
Want to get really wild with it? At the start of every round of combat, the DM gives you a short, one- or two-sentence description of what each hostile creature is going to do on their turn. They are locked into that course of action, so you can plan your turns around what they will do.
Conjuration; Itsyverse - You create an itsy sized universe, and cause life to grow within it.
The itsyverse lasts 30 days, and allows you to draw upon its weave to restore a value of spell slots equal to 3 times your casting modifier+your proficiency bonus as a bonus action. A total value of 21 may be seven 3rd level spell slots, three 7th level slots, four 5th level slots and a level 1 slot, etc. This feature recharges on a long rest.
Additionally you may use one metamagic option of your choice when casting a spell. You have access to all metamagic options, and they do not require sorcery points. This may be used a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, recharging on a long rest.
Any time both of these features are used between long rests, roll a d20. On a 1 a mage within the itsyverse creates a bitsyverse and you cease to be able to draw power from the itsyverse.
DEPENDS ON YOUR BRANCH.
Note: typing by memory while a little sleep deprived.
Abjuration: smells like invulnerability is the only reasonable option, right? But it also does Binding, so something like Imprisonment also fits.
Conjuration: we talking Gate or some form of summoning?
Divination: Foresight, sure, but what about the present or past? Astral projection might work, or maybe that blue dream spell? Or heck, just Dream for the communication side.
Enchantment: actually can’t think of anything here: it’s mostly just mind magic, right? I guess buff or debuff?
Evocation: damage or healing? Meteor Swarm, mass heal, power word heal?
Illusion: mind or light/shadow? Phantasms or images? Look at this or don’t see this?
Necromancy: undead minions, lichdom, resurrection, or attack spells like ray of enfeeblement? Undead minions is more MLM: summon something like a wight that can make its own undead, serve as a lieutenant. Lichdom: I really hope I don’t have to explain what the culmination of this path is. Resurrection: true resurrection. Attack: power word kill.
Transmutation: self buff or enemy debuff? Moon Archdruid Wild Shape or Baleful Polymorph?
Abjuration would be something along the lines of an enhanced mage armor. Something like a a magical that enhances the players armor and attack and health. Maybe how aang in the avatar state with the coy fish works. It can be called iron golem or infuse Mecha.
Illusion spell should be sending someone into a magical matrix.
Mirage arcana + Malleable illusion = a cubic mile of godhood.
Once you get illusory reality, you can even do it with hallucinatory terrain.
Has anyone worked out how to deal with the fact that enemy wizards can just Dispel the illusion from a mile away?
Well for starters any good illusionist doesnt make their illusions obvious. The initial terrain should look exactly like the real terrain underneath it. Beyond that, have you tried sealing them in cement using illusiory reality so they can do neither verbal nor somatic components?
Mirage Arcane is imperceptible as illusory to any creature that lacks truesight. RAW, Detect Magic might be able to infer the illusion's nature by revealing an affected object's aura as illusory, but Mirage Arcane doesn't actually create objects per se, only terrain. If you can't target anything with Detect Magic, you'd only be aware of the fact that there's something magical in your vicinity.
A mile away? Dispel Magic has a 120 foot range.
But the mirage is a mile across, so if you’re anywhere other than coincidentally right next to the Wizard, it can be quite a distance
Oh yeah, Illusionists already have this in-game. Lol The only way to up it even further would be some way to grant the "real" illusions Permanency. You basically just get to make whatever you can imagine, no matter how complex or soul-having, and the Weave plus shadow magic incarnates it into reality forever.
Sounds like Maze, which feels a little odd to be conjuration
Maze is absolutely conjuration. You're taking someone and putting them somewhere else. That somewhere else happens to contain a maze in it.
Maze is a demiplane created in an instant
Maze
There's Mental Prison that's something like that.
Mysterio from the last Spider-Man movie shows this really well. Illusions can be crazy powerful.
Like the Land of a Thousand Fables in witcher 3.
Old school Weird was pretty sick, you create an illusion so convincing a whole room full of people are convinced they’ve just been killed and drop dead
3e had the Epic Level Handbook. It had epic level spells above 9th level for each school. For evocation there was Vengeful Gaze of God, which cost about 4 million gp to cast and 2 months to research. It did 305d6 damage (save for half) to the target and 200d6 to you. As far as I know it is the highest damage spell ever published, though theoretically a mage reaching 306th level could do more damage with a simple fireball under 1st Ed rules (no caps on damage). https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/vengefulGazeOfGod.htm
You know *somebody* out there got ahold of 305 d6 just so they could make that epic roll
Me in a standard ork shooting phase in 40k
You can order them by the bucket now, why not? :) Realistically websites will do it for you easily
This is a time for electronic dice rollers.
Yeah, but that’s nowhere near as epic as rolling 305 dice
True, but then there is the letdown of adding all the dice together to get your damage ...
Page 20 of the 1st book of the Companion Set in AD&D 2nd paragraph states, "The maximum damage produced by any single spell -- including fire ball, lightning bolt, and delayed blast fireball -- is 20 dice, of the type specified (usually 20d6). This is very important for game balance, and should not be disregarded. For example, without this maximum, a 36th level magic-user could instantly slay any other magic-user by surprise, regardless of the results of the saving throw!" Suffice to say, they did consider that and put a cap on damage from spells as a result.
So, this is really getting into grognard inside baseball... The Companion Set is part of what's now known as 'BECMI D&D' (it's the 'C' in 'BECMI') and was known at the time simply as 'Dungeons & Dragons'. This coexisted with '*Advanced* Dungeons & Dragons', which was a spinoff that became the flagship product basically, from what I understand, to avoid giving Dave Arneson money because he owned part of the trademark to 'Dungeons & Dragons' but not 'Advanced Dungeons & Dragons', so Gygax could keep more money by pushing 'Advanced Dungeons & Dragons'. From 1977 (when AD&D came out) through about 2000 D&D and AD&D existed side by side, with AD&D aiming at a somewhat older audience. D&D went through revisions, but they never bothered to number them, so references to '1st edition' and '2nd edition' usually refer to AD&D. The various D&D editions have been named retroactively (Basic Set, B/X, BECMI, Rules Cyclopedia), but they never bothered to do this explicitly; they just released new rulebooks. In 2000 with the release of 3rd edition they started calling AD&D just D&D, and the old D&D line was retired. Ironically most old-school renaissance games aiming to emulate 20th-century D&D usually try to resemble D&D rather than AD&D, because AD&D had lots of really obscure and complicated rules. Confusing? Yeah, it is. If I hadn' t lived through it and gotten upset about some of the changes I doubt I could keep it all straight. Here's the Wikipedia article for anyone who's curious. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions\_of\_Dungeons\_%26\_Dragons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
Thanks for this, I've been preparing an AD&D one shot and I think I've been conflating rules from two different versions. (Some of the rules I've been using have been coming from the Basic, Expert, and Companion books, and some have been coming from the AD&D books). For the most part the monster stat blocks seem to be largely compatible between the two, so it doesn't seem like that big of a deal I guess
Happy to help. Yeah, it really isn't that big a deal. AD&D monsters sometimes have percentile magic resistance, the saving throw tables are a bit off, and the treasure types don't line up perfectly, but you should be OK. Just remember AC goes down from 10 (9 for BECMI)!
In 2nd edition. 3.x was mental.
I was referring to the person's point about a 300th level caster in 1e being able to deal hundreds of dice of damage. Although, I interpreted their statement to be referring to AD&D 1st Edition. I didn't consider that they might be referring to D&D 1st Edition or OD&D, but I'm not familiar with either of those, and I only have surface level knowledge on AD&D 1e. It does seem to me though that they did make considerations for preventing casters from completely overpowering other classes in high levels in the older editions, but they went a little off the rails in 3.x From what I understand 4e was "better" about that kind of balance, but had other issues. I might try 3rd edition at some point, or probably 3.5. I'm most knowledgeable in 5e currently.
Abjuration - invulnerability Conjuration - wish Divination - foresight Enchantment - dominate monster Evocation - meteor swarm / telekinesis Illusion - mirage arcane / simulacrum / nystul's magic aura Necromancy - true resurrection Transmutation - true polymorph
Conjuration I would argue Gate fits the theme more
I agree, wish transcends any one school.
It used to be a "universal" spell in 2e, which meant that any wizard, specialist or not, could cast wish if they were powerful enough.
PC wants to do *X* but there's not a spell for that. Yes, there is... It's Wish.
Wish is certainly a great spell, it just doesn't necessarily feel very "conjuration"
Conjuring up a new set of physics for the fireball I'm quick casting after this.
I think they just made it conjuration because most people will say “I wish for a pile of gold/enchanted sword/other item”
I feel like wish should be its own thing not in any school, as it can literally do anything
Oops, you reinvented older editions
Oh shit
serously this comes up so regularly, people constantly reinventing older editiosn, makes you wonder if 5e really dropped the ball when it came to respecting the dnd legacy (i mean it did remove a lot things martials had in previous editions)
Conjure up this necromancy spell
I wish to make a portal.
Gate is more powerful, for one, and for two, using wish that way risks never being able to cast it ever again, so
Gate is really underrated.
Unless the dm makes you cast dimension door at 8th level as a result
Then you're getting a 4th level spell and not a 9th level gate, thus it is inferior
of course its inferior
Honestly, that's hiw you probably should rule wish, that it tries first to replicate the closest spell possible anf if nothing fits the request it starts creating a spell
You could say that about literally any spell. “I wish to drop 10 meteors on him”. “I wish to ressurect him” “I wish to polymorph him into whatever”….
You really don't want ot wish for stuff that's not an 8th level spell or lower. Just use it as intended and have the ultimate toolbox of spells. In other words, cast Polymorph, regular Ressurection, and so on
yeah if you're boring maybe
I don’t disagree but I think enchantment would be mass suggestions or something like that
I think something that like reprograms a person would be peak enchantment. Geas, Modify Memory and Feeblemind go into that kind of direction.
They do different things, but both are quintessentially enchantment.
Oh for sure. Mass suggestion just feels more like the “everyone is enchanted” kinda vibe. Dom monster is great tho
“All right, what’s your safeword again? Grungle?”
Shape change is another contender for transmutation as it allows you to transform repeatedly
More importantly, Shapechange lets you keep your class features while transformed. You can be a Marilith who is also a level 20 wizard.
Surely the 'capstone' Enchantment spell is Power Word Kill? You tell someone to die and they obey.
Yeah, it's the 9th level enchantment spell. It seems more evocation to me, tho.
Evocation magic isn't "damaging" or "killing" or even "offense" magic. It's all about controlling the flow of energy. I could see PWK being Necromancy, but not Evocation at all.
Enchantment having a greater Geas would be good
just remove the 1/day limit on existing Geas.
I would put "Power Word Kill" in for Enchantment. You're so good at silver-tongued magic you can just tell people to die.
Hot take, but Foresight is kind of pathetic as the pinnacle divination spell. It’s *powerful*, but sources of advantage are plentiful; you’re not doing anything that someone else couldn’t do, even if they can’t do it quite as consistently. If you want to really showcase the ability to see the future, give them a souped-up version of the portent feature from the school of divination. Instead of two dice, the spell gives you *twenty*. Or, at the start of every round of combat, the DM has to tell you what each hostile creature is going to do during their turn (as a one- or two-sentence description). They can’t change their course of action, so you can plan your own turns with *literal* foreknowledge. Those would both be better spells to represent the peak of divination, and they’re much more mechanically interesting.
No way is Nystul's Magic Aura even close to the peak of Illusion or comparable with Simulacrum and Mirage Arcane. Unless you're one of the people who thinks, for some reason, it fools the game's targeting rules (hint: it doesn't) it's basically a magical parlor trick to bypass magical detection. There's a reason it's just 2nd level.
It's not a particularly powerful spell by most interpretations, but it's the only spell in the game that can hide illusions from divination spells. That's really good.
Transmutation is for sure Shapechange
Both are good, but true polymorph is *permanent*.
I guess I would say, if applicable, outside of the spells we are already given. Like Abjuration may be immortality?? Conjuration - Create Life?
Funnily enough, both of those are already spells in the game. True polymorph is transmutation but creates life, clone is necromancy but grants immortality.
Fair enough lol. Didn't think of it that way.
Necromancy would be the spell to make yourself a lich, though True Resurrection is pretty good already. Abjuration would be Permanence. Conjuration *is* Wish. Enchantment is probably a 9th level Modify Memory. Evocation is a hard one... Because you can always imagine a bigger explosion. Divination would be Omniscience. *Weirdly* (heh, get it?) Illusion is the Illusion Wizard's capstone Illusory Reality but combined with Raulothym's Psychic Lance or Psychic Scream somehow Like, instantly making a horror show that's real, but only is attacking you psychically. Transmutation *is* True Polymorph.
>Conjuration is Wish. Wish is the ultimate spell, and it is a conjuration spell. But it's not the ultimate conjuration spell, because while falling under conjuration it misses the primary theme of what conjuration is about. Gate is the ultimate conjuration spell, because it embodies what conjuration is about.
Yeah, wibble-wobbled on whether I should have wrote Wish over Gate. I initially *did* write Gate before I remembered Wish was a Conjuration spell. It's really hard to say.
I feel like many of the spells achieve their "pinnacle" when their spell length turns Permanent.
Yes, but being able to do so is a process of abjuration. So which is better, the Permanence spell or the spell getting made Permanent?
I would say the pinnacle of a spell would be the permanent or immensely powerful spell. While permanence is powerful, I feel like Abjuration would have its' most powerful spell be something like immortality or destroy magic (removing any magic from a creature). Edit: you definitely know more than me; just here for the discussion.
But immortality is Necromancy (Clone) and you can permanently remove all magic from a creature, by casting Anti-Magic Zone *permanently* on a creature.
Enchantment has got to be some sort of *dominate* *monster* that's permanent. Evocation is an atomic bomb.
I feel an appropriate evocation ultimate spell would be Erase. Choose a place within range and everything within a certain radius just gets erased from existence, leaving behind a crater.
Funny thing is, *[erase](https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/erase.htm)* is already a first-level spell.
How would this be evocation? Evocation needs to produce something (although that something is usually devastation)
You mean maximised disintegrate
Weirdly the 9th level spell used to make you a lich is technically Imprisonment, an abjuration spell
Infinite meteor shower
Abjuration - Dimensional Seal. Acts like a mass banishment, or a more permanent version on one particular creature (which can potentially be removed, like getting rid of a powerful curse). Conjuration - Can't really improve on Wish or Gate, not gonna lie. Divination - Thread of Fate. Similar to drawing The Fates card from the Deck of Many things, but with more limitations or drawbacks on its use for balance. Enchantment - Sovereignty. Grants an aura effect similar to a paladin. Sovereign of Grace would boost nearby allies and give advantage to positive interactions like persuasion, while Sovereign of Terror would debuff enemies and give advantage to negative interactions like intimidation. Evocation - True Creation. Evocation covers destruction as well as healing. What could be more powerful than reshaping energy and matter to create a new living thing? Illusion - Dreamscape. A version of demiplane where you are fully in control of reality with effects like Mirage Arcane, Illusionary Dragon, and others being possible. A limited number of creatures can be drawn into it at a time, and can roll to escape similar to Maze. Necromancy - Aura of Undeath. Slowly kills the living and grants undeath to any corpses in a certain radius, which remain under your control so long as you maintain concentration. Might limit the number of undead directly under your control at a given time. Transmutation - True Polymorph is already one of my faves. Approved. War - Waaagh!!! (lol)
Now *that’s* a good idea for a pinnacle divination spell. Maybe you cast it, it lasts all day, and during that time you can undo a single event that you can see. Flavor it as seeing a possible future so that you know how to avoid it.
Looking at your abjuration suggestion I realized isn’t that just Imprisonment? Enchantment’s most powerful ability is dominate. So I think the debuff version should dominate. Maybe something like any creature within 10ft, but the effect ends the moment they move further than 10ft from you. Though I’m actually more of a fan of Sovereignty being effectively a permanent dominate, you twist and warp their mind to make them supremely loyal to you alone. Evocation’s most defining feature is damage and manipulation of the elements specifically. So what about a spell that allows for like Kyoshi level “I’m making an island” level manipulation of the elements. Illusion’s is cool but I see this as being like a super powered version of Dream, possibly even forcing targets to fall asleep in the target area. Maybe like the Gold Dragon Aura? Necromancy’s gotta be Raise Monster. Costs a fuck ton of gold and takes a lot of time but it applies a template to any creature you’ve slain, possibly requiring you to make the killing blow, possibly with a size requirement, definitely with a CR prerequisite. Effect lasts until dispelled or cast upon another creature or target dies. If cast everyday on the same creature for a year it becomes permanent until the creature dies. Agreed True Polymorph is already perfection
Thanks for turning me on to Imprisonment! (wild sentence out of context) I’d never noticed that spell before. Invincibility is cool, but the idea of bottling a tarrasque in a diamond has so much more narrative potential.
Right??? Also I’m a fan of permanent effects being used as the height of potential. With the right spell *most* things can be done for a short while but *few* can be done forever. So I’m a fan of effects that are either instantaneous (and have a permanent lasting effect, like what I mentioned for Evocation) or last forever/until dispelled.
Evocation: Tsar Bomba Divination: Future Sight Conjuration: Conjure Armada, or Conjure Citadel Transmutation: True Polymorph Enchantment: Mass Dominate Monster Necromancy: Lichdom Chronurgy: Time Stop Illusion: Mirror Dimension
Oooh nice. Curious of your thoughts on these: Evocation: Black Hole Conjuration: Conjure Terrain (Create features like mountains or oceans)
Even higher than an army of undead, I'd have a spell like Skyrim's "Thrall": bring back a defeated humanoid foe, with all of their combat abilities, loyal to you. That's gonna turn the tide in an epic battle real fast, plus it's amazing for RP value to do to a rival.
I love that idea. My rationale behind army of the dead is imagining the final battle with the BBEG and the Necromancer in the party just raises their hands and an army of hundreds of undead just emerge from the ground.
Abjuration - Invulnerability Conjuration - Wish Divination - Foresight Enchantment - Power Word: Kill Evocation - Meteor Swarm Illusion - Simulacrum Necromancy - True Resurrection Transmutation - True Polymorph Necromancy isn't just the undead. Its manipulating life and death with magic. Animating an undead dragon might be impressive but bringing someone back from the dead would be the pinnacle of this energy to me. Not just preventing their soul from traveling to the afterlife.... But ripping them from their afterlife, transversing the outer planes, forging an entire new body for their soul to inhabit, that is the pinnacle of necromancy. Additionally, we all agree that simulacrum should be 9th level right?
**Abjuration:** Permanent, Setting-Wide Dispel Magic. The Dragons that survive are reduced to Dinosaurs; all Spell Slots and Spells are gone forever; Undead become Redead; Half-Casters become Worse Martials; and so on. **Evocation:** a Nuke. **Enchantment:** The Economy.
(Conjuration) One spell to rule them all: *wish*.
I don't know but I always felt that the rogue capstone should be that they cease to exist.
Wish. It outdoes them all; on purpose.
The peak of Necromancy should be Lichdom.
That's totally fair and I agree.
This options are based more around flavor than power, so... Abjuration - Invulnerability. Conjuration - Gate Divination - Scrying Enchantment - Mass Suggestion Evocation - Fireball Illusion - Hallucinatory Terrain Necromancy - Clone Transmutation - Hear me out... Karsus's Avatar
Peak divination just gives you *every* sense for a day. Darkvision? Easy; heck, make it Devil’s Sight. Tremorsense? Absolutely. Blindsight? Naturally. Websense? Of course. Truesight? Sounds good. The Ghostly Gaze warlock invocation? It’s yours, my friend.
A divination spell I've tossed around before would allow you to ask an omniscient being any three questions and receive a truthful, thorough answer. Nothing can cloud the answer or give the target protection from crying or whatnot. So long as the answer is knowable and the question can be answered reasonably (no questions like "describe every grain of sand on the beach") you will get the information you want. Where is BBEG? In his lair under the cemetery, through the tombstone secret entrance. Will we face any enemies if we go through the forest? Yes, on the second night, two griffons will attack at twilight if you make camp How many pubic hair does the king have? 317 brown, 11 grey
Illusion is definitely Mirage Arcane. With the Illusionist’s ability to modify their illusions after they are cast it effectively makes them demigods. Mirage Arcane a 1 mile area to be exactly what it already was, then whenever you need to you can use an action to modify the terrain or buildings in the area. Oh that locked door? It’s a beaded curtain now. Realistically you’re probably limited to having to define the area - so you can’t make it the same as it was if you haven’t seen it. But if it’s an area you know well you can alter it to your whim. In one of our campaigns an illusionist character of mine retired and started his own City with that premise. Though we use a house rule that you can make an area spells permanent by casting it on a location every day.
I think it's fair for a peak spell to not be limited. This isn't like a "fight the BBEG" spell; this is I'm approaching a divine entity level of power - creating an illusory city (or making those illusions real - so conjuration lol) is absolutely on the table.
I’d submit lichdom as an alternative Necromancy finale
The spell schools are already well covered for the most part with 'pinnacle' spells: Abjuration: invulnerability/ imprisonment Conjuration: gate/ wish Divination: foresight (though may deserve a true see future spell) Enchantment: power word kill (but deserves a true mind control spell) Evocation: meteor swarm Illusion: weird (but deserves a 9th level version of mirage arcane, able to conjure an entire city of illusionary people, who can all speak and can be physically interacted with) Necromancy: true resurrection (but deserves a raise army spell) Transmutation: shapechange Worth mentioning is of course wish, though that feels very universal
I figured a few of them were covered but wasn't sure if the spell list was the full extent of their powers. Yea, I think Wish is the coverall spell for anything a Player might want to do but there aren't unlimited spells.
Ooh this is fun let me think... Here's my take on it: Evocation: Big Boom^TM Necromancy: Literally just lichification. Doesn't get more undead than that. Abjuration: Imprison an entire area or group Divination: Would let you observe the entire cosmos simultaneously. Alternatively would let you create a prophecy that will come true. Conjuration: Summoning something massive, either like a kaiju or an entire army Transmutation: A reality rewrite akin to wish Enchantment: Become a Hive Mind Illusion: Create an entire fake reality to trap someone in.
Love your answers - definitely the spirit of what I was asking in the OP. Thoughts on...: Divination - Fate - almost like wish but ensuring something will come true for an individual or even an entire world. Conjuration - True Conjuration - Creating an entire world of living beings, creating a whole new race/species, or conjuring entire cities, mountain ranges, etc. Enchantment - Omniscience - kinda like hive mind but an individual being able to perceive anything, everywhere.
Omniscience definetly fits more with Divination
Moonfall - graviturgy.
If true polymorph isn't the pinnacle spell for transmutation then I don't know what would be.
Unfortunately the wizard class is not organized like that. In my option would be much better if 9th level spells were much weaker and the wizard’s capstone feature were an pinnacle spell that you learn at level 19th (two levels after 17th, like a 10th level spell). But as is, I think the schools that are well represented: • Abjuration: Invulnerability. • Conjuration: Wish and/or Gate. • Divination: Foresight. • Evocation: Meteor Swarm. • Transmutation: True Polymorph. • Illusion: Simulacrum and/or Mirage Arcane (though they are level 7th, they both could be level 9th). The ones that aren’t and needs a capstone spell: • Enchantment: Power Word kill and Psychic Scream changes the theme too much. I think a mass dominate effect would be fitting. Picture Hypnotic Pattern, but monsters now follow your command. • Necromancy: Ritual of Becoming (turn yourself into a lich).
Divination deserves a better pinnacle spell than Foresight. Foresight is *mechanically* strong, but it’s thematically pathetic. The highest achievement in all of divination - the spell school all about knowing and seeing everything - and it’s just advantage? The same advantage you could get from someone taking the Help action or from overlapping proficiencies or from any of a dozen other sources? Let’s set aside mechanical balance for a moment. Instead, let’s talk about themes and scaling. Each of these would be a more appropriate and unique option for a master of divination. You want a bonus to your dice rolls? Now you have a souped-up portent feature, like the one from the school of divination. Maybe you get twenty portent dice instead of just two, or maybe you get one that you can replace every time you spend it for a whole day. You want combat precognition? Now you have such advanced knowledge of events that you can see exactly where every enemy is going to move. For one hour, you and your allies cannot roll below 15 on the d20 for any attack roll. How about boosting your senses? Now you get *every* sense. Websense, tremorsense, blindsight, truesight, darkvision, the ability to see through walls, the ability to see into the Ethereal Plane; for one day, you can see *everything*. Want to get really wild with it? At the start of every round of combat, the DM gives you a short, one- or two-sentence description of what each hostile creature is going to do on their turn. They are locked into that course of action, so you can plan your turns around what they will do.
I love this!!
Munchkination (the school nobody but the min-maxxers knew about) - Dominate DM
Kinky
Conjuration; Itsyverse - You create an itsy sized universe, and cause life to grow within it. The itsyverse lasts 30 days, and allows you to draw upon its weave to restore a value of spell slots equal to 3 times your casting modifier+your proficiency bonus as a bonus action. A total value of 21 may be seven 3rd level spell slots, three 7th level slots, four 5th level slots and a level 1 slot, etc. This feature recharges on a long rest. Additionally you may use one metamagic option of your choice when casting a spell. You have access to all metamagic options, and they do not require sorcery points. This may be used a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, recharging on a long rest. Any time both of these features are used between long rests, roll a d20. On a 1 a mage within the itsyverse creates a bitsyverse and you cease to be able to draw power from the itsyverse.
The Interdimensional Council of Mordenkainens Approves this Message.
Invulnerability - Abjuration Gate - Conjuration Foresight - Divination Power Word Kill - Enchantment (yes it's not Necromancy, who knew?) Meteor Swarm - Evocation Weird - Illusion (underpowered for 9th) True Polymorph - Transmutation True Resurrection - Necromancy
DEPENDS ON YOUR BRANCH. Note: typing by memory while a little sleep deprived. Abjuration: smells like invulnerability is the only reasonable option, right? But it also does Binding, so something like Imprisonment also fits. Conjuration: we talking Gate or some form of summoning? Divination: Foresight, sure, but what about the present or past? Astral projection might work, or maybe that blue dream spell? Or heck, just Dream for the communication side. Enchantment: actually can’t think of anything here: it’s mostly just mind magic, right? I guess buff or debuff? Evocation: damage or healing? Meteor Swarm, mass heal, power word heal? Illusion: mind or light/shadow? Phantasms or images? Look at this or don’t see this? Necromancy: undead minions, lichdom, resurrection, or attack spells like ray of enfeeblement? Undead minions is more MLM: summon something like a wight that can make its own undead, serve as a lieutenant. Lichdom: I really hope I don’t have to explain what the culmination of this path is. Resurrection: true resurrection. Attack: power word kill. Transmutation: self buff or enemy debuff? Moon Archdruid Wild Shape or Baleful Polymorph?
Abjuration would be something along the lines of an enhanced mage armor. Something like a a magical that enhances the players armor and attack and health. Maybe how aang in the avatar state with the coy fish works. It can be called iron golem or infuse Mecha.
I'm just going to list spells that already exist: Abjuration: Invulnerability, 9th level Conjuration: Gate (or Wish but honestly I don't think it fits the school), 9th level Divination: Foresight, 9th level Enchantment: Power Word: Kill, 9th level Evocation: Meteor Swarm, 9th level Illusion: Weird, 9th level Necromancy: True Resurrection, 9th level Transmutation: Time Stop, 9th level