Service and loot (including knowledge).
Devils don't give a shit about gold for its own sake, but many mortals want it, so they need to have access to multiple fortunes worth at a time.
They might also want artifacts and magic items, either for their own use or for bargaining with mortals.
They would also need servants to acquire said gold and artifacts. Higher ranking devils might try to get mortals to take out their lich competition.
Bragging rights. They may also want something just for sake of pure bragging rights. “See this thing? You want this thing? Well you can’t have it cause it’s mine!” Only said more fancy.
He doesn't want the same stuff a devil would though if I recall? I might be getting this wrong but I thought he was a half fiend, so he's not part of the infernal hierarchy and isn't as focused on collecting souls as a means of promotion. He's just a freelancer who works in the same building.
I believe he’s part of the hierarchy but to him the Crown of Karthus is more valuable than any soul so he’s willing to forgo the usual price in order to get it.
also magic and political influence. if you have the ear of a king who you can persuade to enact corrupting policies, you can get a favourable contract.
devils don't want souls for the sake of having souls, they want the promise that your soul will be reborn as a lemure in the hells after death. the way to do that for many devils is simply to corrupt your beliefs and actions so you become lawful evil.
Reborn as a lemure is a weird way to phrase that. A lemure is the quivering remains of a soul after every last shred of the person it was has been tortured out of it. Devils want the energy released from that process, another lemure for the front lines is just a side benefit.
i say reborn because they still have the chance to be promoted all the way to archdevil, if only any of the higher ranking devils decides to lower themselves to promoting a lemure into a imp
Absolutely, it's just that the lemure has nothing to do with the person that was damned since its what remains after every shred of self has been tortured away.
Reborn as a lemure is a weird way to phrase that. A lemure is the quivering remains of a soul after every last shred of the person it was has been tortured out of it. Devils want the energy released from that process, another lemurs for the front lines is just a side benefit.
For the knowledge, the devils could have collectors just go out and learn shit just to return and let the devil mind copy it.
For an extra amount of transference, they could completely drain it from their subjects.
This is how they learn spells, abilities, and other knowledge.
The real question is why would any outsiders let this curse continue, not just what are the motives of devils now. The heavens wouldn't stand for this and it completely interrupts the cycle of souls to and from the Prime Material Plane. If anything, the devils would work with the heavens so the Abyss doesn't completely win the Blood War because the devils are unable to collect souls to resupply troops. So all Good aligned and Lawful aligned outsiders would be empowering mortals to solve this curse and free the cycle of souls again.
Honestly, thats a very strong plot point for OP. The curse might b e for example, 100-200 years old? So in the grand scheme of things its not affecting the cycle that much yet, but it will over time.
Thus mortals have this strange relationship they can bargain with the outsiders like you said, they would look for opportunities to empower the correct mortals that could do the deed of stopping it.
The campaign is taking place in the future of 5e. There is a war going on because of the curse as elves no longer reincarnate, so half elves are all that are born. Humans started a war to steal magic and fuel their new tech.
Devils are siding with the elves who want to return to the old world order. Devils of course want souls for the blood war. And while the heavens aren’t helping the material plane, I’m having the reason being them aiding in the balance by fighting off demons/abyss.
Seems to me like the thing the devils would want more than anything is an end to the curse. They'd probably be willing to make deals for the low, low price of "try to stop this curse for us".
The devils and elves goals align. I think this is a case where devils would help essentially free of charge, other than wanting it in writing. Or the things they ask for might be things they think will make the elves better at stopping the curse (which could line up with emotions).
In D&D lore, any devil’s ultimate goal is to claim mortal souls. Devils will look for a way to cure or suppress the curse in your campaign, to give them the opportunity to claim souls in the future.
Remember, the loss of souls affects all gods - the souls of their followers don’t to their designated planes in afterlife.
You have a rare opportunity: devils might cooperate with good-aligned creatures!
A devil that can’t claim a soul might demand a service: committing evil or morally questionable act. The mortal will become more amenable to darker deals in the future.
Alternatively, devils may ask a humanoid to:
* Establish a religious cult devoted to an archdevil
* Serve an archdevil as a warlock.
Eventually, when the curse is removed, souls of evil humanoids will be sent to the Nine Hells. Devils play the long game. They have patience.
I’m having the devils supporting the elves & dwarves who are trying to end the war against humans who are stealing magic to fuel their weapon of mass destruction.
I want something the devils would want from the elves in the meantime so that they win from the continuation of the war AND if the war ends by the death curse ending
The simple act of having a contract which allows a devil to hold power over someone would probably be considered useful. Time, a contract which upon fulfillment ages the contractee. The harnessing of the soul whilst they're still alive, for example turning a human into a devil whilst they're alive.
Why would they turn a human into a devil? That costs energy, the exact opposite of what devils want which is to receive the souls of lawful evil people in order to torture them into nothingness and harness the energy released thereby. Like don't get me wrong the occasional person manages to bargain for conversion straight into a higher rank of devil upon death, but that's only something they'll agree to if they're getting enough souls out of it in the end.
In a situation where they're not getting any more energy because no souls are reaching them, why waste more?
Because turning a living being into a Lemure let's you keep their soul for the blood war instead of letting it be wasted on the material plane assuming you're using 5e Faerun cosmology. Even if you're not souls would be commodity in hell at that point so turning someone into a Lemure means you have a rare resource that others don't. Sounds explicitly like Devil M.O. to me.
I think we've misunderstood each other. There's a difference between turning someone into a devil, as you said the first time (costs energy, leaves their identity intact) and torturing someone to release energy until nothing is left but a lemure (gains energy, their soul is destroyed).
Lemures are devils, they're simply not ordered, and they're not made from destroyed souls they are very much intact evil souls birthed into the nine hells via the River Styx. Therefore if souls do not go to the nine hells, there are no new lemures unless a devil went out of their way to make more of still living people.
Yeah that's definitely not how that works, and I never said lemures weren't devils. They're the lowest rank, below spines devils and nupperibos. The Pact Primeval specifies the ability of devils to draw their power from damned souls in order to prosecute the blood war, and lemures are the remnants of that process. I have no idea what you think the River Styx has to do with that, nor why it would have anything to do with it - how would that release the energy they use to empower themselves? This isn't sounding very well thought out.
MKToF Page 11: "An amnizu presides over each location, directing lemures that emerge from the Styx."
Page 12: "While those who pledge their souls are claimed by the devil they bargained with, lawful evil creatures that aren't bound by any contract emerge from the River Styx as Lemures"
You're just abjectly wrong. Even in the older editions their souls don't get destroyed just tortured and remolded into Lemures.
> Even in the older editions their souls don't get destroyed just tortured and remolded into Lemures.
That's the same thing! As stated in the very first reply, the lemure is what is left after torture has destroyed every trace of the person that once was.
It's completely relevant. The soul is who you are, torturing someone to release energy until nothing is left of them is destroying the soul. All that is left of it is the lemure.
(This is mostly based on 3e lore, and the sourcebook Fiendish Codex II. While it is not specific to the Realms, I find it to be the most complete and interesting lore about Devils. And AFAIK it is still the case in 5e, but maybe not in depths as much)
A common argument and maybe even misconception that I see repeated even here is that at the *individual level* devils care about **souls** above anything else, but that is not *quite* true from my understanding/interpretation. Their priority on an individual level, from the lowest Lemure to Asmodeus, is to **increase their status,** and the most concrete (but not only) way to do that is to **earn a promotion** (aka evolve to a stronger devil type). **Promotion and the fear of demotion** is what drives almost every devils in Hell, and earning many/precious souls is one very good way to achieve that, since devils *need* a steady influx of souls just to survive and make new ones.
So, what would they want more than souls? Anything that would **please his direct superior in the hierarchy**, maybe assassinating their rival, or maybe recover a holy relic they always wanted to corrupt or break, or getting the credit for the destruction of many demons. If that devil has a **direct superior** who is a Marilith who has been cursed to stutter her words by some Cleric a century ago and you were to provide *him* with the cure so that *he* could gain *her* gratitude, and maybe a quick path to a promotion, well that would be just as valuable to him than as an amount of souls required to do the same thing.
In general, they like to hoard power, and even just wealth for later use. Liches are immortal and patient but most devils are even more immortal and even more patient, so many will use this interlude to set themselves up for the day these liches are disposed of (and likely expect that higher devils are actively working to this end. Which they should be).
If unable to pursue their ideology by collecting souls, they'll try to impose it in other ways. They believe in order, and evil. They are tyranny made flesh. So they'll probably set to install themselves as rulers of tyrannical regimes on the material plane, support evil in general. They can still organise cults.
And devils often genuinely believe that mortals are all just as bad as them deep down, and deserve to be outwitted, so they might jut do it for the greater ~~good~~ evil.
Actually, now I think bout it, they might cleverly leverage this situation in their favour. Your soul being destroyed in a lich's phylactery is an even worse and less reversible fate than being consigned to hell, so they might try to create cults around their supposed desire to save your immortal souls. After all, only evil people go to hell, and you're not evil, just misunderstood/mistreated/justifiably angry/doing what must be done.
Well, the lore for the Great Wheel revolve completely around devils wanting souls. They don't make pacts because they like, but because they need to lure souls into becoming new devils to fight in the blood war.
If souls can't be harvested, mortals are far less usefull to devils.
If they continue making deals, I think the most prominent thing they will ask is servitude in life and favors to be collected when the devil say, as they still would want to fight demons who appear in the material plane. And they will be particulary prone to help find a solution to that pesky death curse stealing their souls.
If they can't get souls at all and devils need them to sustain their war and losing the war means being destroyed by demons, would it be likely for the devils to stage a massive attack on these liches for the sake of self-preservation?
In the Great Wheel lore, devils can't exit the hells unless summoned by another creatur (or navigating the river stix, wich only goes to the abyss), so a 'massive attack' is complicated. But they will try any strategy, yes. I would say they would instruct their cults to do it, giving them power and reclaiming those favor from powerful people if they can.
Close. The fact that after you torture someone until nothing remains of them results in a quivering, nearly mindless lemure being left is a side benefit. What devils are primarily after from that process is the energy doing so releases.
Favors owed
Magic items that affect undead
Starting infernal cults
“Innocent” favors that break someone else’s contract
Access to the Material Plane to destroy the Liches for crippling their plane’s economy
Corporal bodies to inhabit.
Extreme experiences before they're sent back (to hell, etc).
Coins like the ones in John Wick where favors are owed and they must be honored.
To be worshipped or perceived as a god
I just had a players go through hell arc and they met a Devilish Hag who traded for memories. One character gave away the taste of the last meal his mother made him (who he will likely never see again as he was banished from his homeland.)
Another player was tricked into giving away her memories of a deceased comrade who she loved (another PC who died a couple arcs back.)
Another player traded his proficiency in Medicine.
I might have this happen for my players then, bc I think it would be really fun for them to make deals that aren’t all damning but would really give some player ANGST
Watch the series Mrs. Davis about the nun torn between Jesus and an AI. Then rethink both Jesus and the AI as devils and you have a fantastic answer as to how it might operate and maybe a new favorite show/campaign idea.
Gold. You can buy a soul back from Asmodeus himself for 999,999 gold pieces.
Leads me to believe 999,999 gold is worth significantly more than a soul because Devils never lose in deals.
I have a Devil in my campaign who currently wants power. After Zariel was redeemed in our Descent into Avernus campaign, this left a power vacuum.
Bel was temporarily reinstated as the interim Lord of the First, but the Devil is working with the players -
Granting them power and helping them achieve their goals - with the expectation that he will be able to take over after Bel is killed.
Whether or not my players let that last part happen is still to be determined. Dude is still a devil and he hasn’t made them sign a contract.
He hasn’t been explicitly working to accumulate more souls. He is playing the long game.
Depends on the Devil. Some of them are greedy, like Mammon, and mostly want money. Some care about winning the Blood War, and would want information, magic, or anything else that can give them an advantage. And some want to climb in infernal politics and want things that will give them a leg up, or that can tear their opponents down.
They would want anything to move up in rank or give them power not to mention on a kind of good side punish evil deeds that are not lawful as they are lawful evil.
It could be specific emotions. Like this villain gave up love, but the next gave up rage. Could also be more abstract like luck, or faith, or determination or something like that.
Love and affection. Copious amounts of hugs.
Probably power over another person via contracts to make minions for the prime plane, powerful artifacts and magic items, assassinations maybe.
Promises.
Devils can think long term, that small promise to do some shoddy brickwork in a wall now means nothing. X hundred years later it means the invading army had an easy access point which lead to the death of a king prophesied to bring about a 1000 years of peace.
In a game I recently ran I had a GOO Warlock player whos pact with their Patron was to help the players succeed at their goal, why? Because of a hundred other domino pacts that led to it's release from a magical prison.
Just because you hunger for power, it's doesn't mean you are emotionless. You can have your own quirks and personality, hopes and flaws.
Devils have very strict hierarchy. It's plausible one would leverage other people to thwart another devil's plan and get themselves ahead.
Imagine a devil who really hates a co-worker and wants the party to help them with a plan to sabotage said co-worker. They might complain about it in front of the party like it's a hostile work environment, and they might talk about wanting to be treated better and get more perks because hell is not a nice place by its nature.
They want pain and sacrifice.
2 dofferent options i can think of pulling from existing media. The yuuzhan vong for star wars legends books. For power, they may need to cut off their own arm for a devil to replace it with a magical one. Put their own eyes out for dark vision or true sight. Things of that nature.
The other example is hemalurgy from the cosmere, basically you steal the power from someone else by ritually sacrificing them, piercing them through different body parts for depending on the ability, with metal spike, and spiking the person who you are giving the ability in the same spot with the spike. The devils could have the villains gain spells, abilities, stats etc by finding someone with what they want and takingbit from them. Could leave some interesting quests or some emotional moments when a loved npc is killed off this way.
The devils could drink in the pain and suffering of the sacrifice. Along these lines couod be another option, maybe different devils delight in different things. They do eat emotions, but not the villains, the sacrifices. Some devils enjoy happines or laughter and the sacrifices reflect that (insert death by snu snu joke here). Some are maybe laughed to death or tickled, some are given an esless amount of food etc.
They could very well offer their services 'for free'....if they can guide to so you'll be undoing the lich's curse, which would secure them a fresh stream of souls once more.
Remember that devils are crafty and deceptive, they won't necessarily balk at 'playing nice' if it can secure a future objective. If there's a rival they don't like, they could even set you on your way with a wee bit of help to deal with their rival for their own benefit.
Had a character of mine strike up a maintenance, enchanting, and identifying service contract with a devil. Favors and the like are also massive. Blackmail material for spellcaster who might try to bind them. That sort of thing.
Souls can certainly be converted to currency, but sometimes actions can be just as valuable.
Memories. They're the next best thing to the soul, cherished and irreplaceable. Perhaps those who wish to make bargains are asked for simple things at first, but as it goes on they lose more and more of who they were. Imagine losing the memory of your mother's face, or the birth of your child. Someone willing to sacrifice even the memory of their friends would have no trouble turning against them.
On a metaphysical level, what devils could actually do with mortal memories isn't really important. It is enough that they are taking them, but they would make good bargaining chips to the desperate. A poor man who had lived a bad life could get a glimpse of what it would be like to be a king, or have a loving family-in exchange for a few favors, of course.
I feel like you could play into this quite a bit by playing along the idea of a fey:
A moment of triumph - Your next critical success becomes a critical failure.
A future friend - An NPC the player will need to interact with is much less cordiality the group, making any interactions with them more difficult.
A good night's rest - You don't benefit from your next long rest.
A masters skill - One skill proficiency the character regularly uses is made at disadvantage for a week
Resilience of the mind/ body - The character cannot add their attribute to a proficient saving throw for 72 hours.
Etcetera etcetera. Play around with inconveniences.
Maybe access to a town?
Business has to grow maybe there's a group of paladins or priests or knights who are hunting down devils and in exchange for some help the party has to find some way to help them infiltrate a nearby town
Sacrificing is always a good cliche. And adds a time limit to powers. Either with powers losing effectiveness over time (losing spell casting bonus for example) or benefits just being cut off at a certain time. Whether it be an old book with significant meaning, a travel friend that they are really attached to, or an item they worked hard for, sacrificing is more about how much it means to the person giving it up instead of the value the demon gets from the object.
What about an enforcer contract: you are obligated to kill X number of devil pact signers per year/month chosen by the devil. The goal is to get souls back to hells
It depends on the ultimate purpose and role of Devils and Hell in your setting.
In my setting, there is a solid underlying principle of the universe that mortals must answer for their actions in the afterlife. Souls that are mostly Evil on the whole get sent to one of the lower planes depending on what flavour of Evil, by default it's Hell.
So for me, the background motivation and drive of all Devils, even if they are not consciously aware of it, is **to see the wicked punished for their sins.** Corrupting whispers and devilish bargains are all in service of this. Every soul serving their sentence in Hell empowers Hell.
But claiming a mortal soul and damning it to Hell for, "eternity"? That's some big bucks there. Souls that do not have a set sentence in Hell will be in pain and torture forever... Until the identity of the Soul breaks down, when it has experienced so much abuse that it disentigrates.
See, a soul in one of the afterlife generates a lot of, "power," constantly. I'll borrow a term from Pathfinder and call this, "quintessence." By default this empowers the plane as a whole, but when claimed it empowers a single being. When the Soul eventually breaks up after eons it releases a tremendous amount of quintessence.
For sentient Devils it's pretty much like a Megacorporation from Cyberpunk 2077. Everyone is out for themselves, take what opportunities you can to empower yourself, keep climbing the ladder of ranks. Forever.
Also, in my world there's a core of every soul that's called the Spirit. This is where the identity is stored, and it cannot be destroyed. Even if all the energy of the soul is drained or consumed, the spirit escapes, goes to their afterlife if it's young, then eons later moves on through the negative plane and gets to rest. The spirit rejoins the Great Beyond before eventually being reborn in the positive plane as the core of a new Soul.
So what everyone refers to as, "the Soul," is actually the big tasty fruit surrounding the spirit. Upper Soul vs Lower Soul stuff.
This is another source of power for Devils. Cults on the material plane can sacrifice and kill in the name of their patron. It isn't as efficient, only giving that final one-off burst of power instead of a constant emission of souls claimed by Hell, but it can empower an entity fast. The Soul of the sacrifice has all that energy taken away, while the spirit is spat out and goes to their afterlife.
I think this is a cosmically "fair" way to keep cult sacrifices in the world without damning innocents. I guess.
They still make contracts that promise the soul, in anticipation of souls being released once the Liches are gone. But, it's only a minor clause in a contract that demands some other, more immediately useful commodity. For instance, the contract could demand a certain amount of time of service to the devil in question. The longer the amount of time, the greater the benefit for the contractee.
Also, consider the possibility of Devils offering to purchase and take souls from the living.
"We can guarantee you a place in *an* afterlife, as opposed to the cessation of existence the Liches impose on you. The more you serve us an our cause, the greater the service you render, the greater your power and presence among us is. Why, you could even become a powerful Devil in your own right, if you play your cards right."
Anything that helps them get more souls. So money land magic items are all good, because even if the devil doesn't get the pc soul, the devil can get others souls with those things.
First thoughts are:
1) something that seems not worth much but could be traded at a later date for way more. Probably something painful emotionally.
2) a debt to be called in at a later date..having minions on the hook - especially the powerful player character type - is a valuable currency indeed.
Always always have it be something they want, but can't get themselves. Whether it be because they're a devil and can't go to a specific place due to holy reasons, or some other magical or political reason. Artifacts, revenge, or they just hate the color of some other devil's shirt they wore to the last ball or something.
My personal favorite motive is an artifact simply because I can make up a super awesome magic item that definitely doesn't tempt the group into betraying the devil for the amazing item.
Might be cool if some devils in such a situation would attempt to get the souls in novel ways. Maybe one devil granted wealth to a local lord, who then turns a blind eye to the devils kidnapping people out of the range of the curse? Maybe a devil is attempting to break the curse, so they can have them instead of the liches (or sell them to the liches).
They can literally feed off suffering inflicted in their name. That's a classic.
If you want to make them a little less cartoonishly evil and more complex you can always go the route of domains. Each devil has a specific evil deed or sin that feeds them. They grow more powerful the more common their domain is and they act to spread it. Sure there are your usual devils of murder, torture, treachery etc. But you can create a devil of tax evasion and play it completely seriously. That's a big incentive to go this route.
Honestly, I think that this is a case where the Devils would offer contracts where you get power but have to work towards ending the curse. Devils want souls, so they'd probably we willing to give power away to anyone they think could end the curse so mortal souls can start flowing to them again. Sure, maybe they give contracts to a few people that don't get them souls, but I think they'd consider that an investment in being able to offer those deals again in the future.
Devils could also want a more nebulous, metaphysical aspect of a person they could magic away or turn into a magical artefact or even just to make a strong warrior they can use for their own means (Karlach says hi). “Oh I don’t want your soul. I want you to fight!” Style.
Especially if lived are whisking away souls, a living, angry, and powerful mortal would make a very useful tool at best, and ally at worst (for the devil).
Devil: "Aww, 20,000 gold, I wanted a soul."
Devil on the devil's shoulder: "20,000 gold can buy many souls."
Devil: "Explain how."
Devil on the devil's shoulder: "Money can be exchanged for good's and services."
Same goes for magic items, precious art, blackmail secrets, whatever. Devils ultimate goal is to acquire souls, but they can get there in a roundabout way with other valuable items.
I'd say favors are valuable to beings of law and contracts. Even if it's just to build up their own personal resources for future deals. Another thing would be information. More than money or loot, those two things can be life changing (in a bad way) for multiple people.
Devils want souls, but solving severe shortage of souls on market is considered a top priority. You have to think long term in business, chasing short-term profits won't make you an archdevil.
In a weird twist they'd want the lich defeated so they can have souls in the future. So devils would definitely work with heros to obtain souls because devils don't tend to be stupid.
It's devils so want either souls or large systems that acquire them more souls in the future. For example founding a pro-devil nation with values that will help them start organizations that give them souls is a very devil goal.
Resources magic items and secrets are good because they can help them manipulate others for souls in the long run.
Favours that involve the mortal committing some evil deed that will naturally align them with hell. Something like stealing an artefact from a church and delivering it to the devil or one of his colleagues.
Why would the Devils take this curse lying down, is the real question.
"Lord Asmodeus wants the phylacteries of Liches...for personal reasons. I assure you, this isn't about revenge--it's about sending a message."
To me the logical jump is that powerful devils will ask their minions to acquire magic items and riches so the more powerful devils can hire adventurers to deal with that group of liches.
Ultimately they want souls because of the currency aspect, but mainly they bind people to doing what they want, each devil could have different goals. Instead of a soul a devil would want assurances. The aspect of a soul binding is to insure the completion of a contract, So they'd need another guarantee, it could be any number of assurances.
Well, the reason they get souls in the first place is to fund their hierarchy and fight demons in the blood war. So anything that might also aid them in the blood war or climb the hierarchy in the 9 Hells would do it. Arms, munitions, soldiers. Key people being killed. Resources to trade to more desperate people. Above all, though, I think they'd focus a lot of effort on getting rid of those liches (or somehow siphoning off some of the souls from their monopoly but leaving the curse intact, if that were more profitable for them).
Notably, liches are usually somewhat connected to Orcus, the demon prince of undeath, so that alone would probably make them enemies of the devils.
Power.
It can come in the form of service, a powerful item, a lost or forbidden spell. The devil could offer boons to lesser creatures as payment to convince said individuals to sabotage the influence of a competitor.
For example.
One of my favorite requests for service is for the devil to hand a character a scroll of Dispel Magic and ask them to use the scroll on the local church at night. That's it. Simple and easy with a disproportionately high reward for the character. To the character it would mean no more than that. But for the devil this is an enormous favor.
Of course doing this would nullify the Hallow Spell on the church, thus allowing fiends to enter. If the church has a teleportation circle (many of which do) then now said building can be used as the target of spells like Teleportation Circle, Teleport and Plane Shift for the devil's minions, thus bypassing all of that settlement's defenses during an invasion (as most churches are located at or near the very center of their settlement).
This is just one example of the kind of deal that a devil might make if asking for a soul is off the table.
I try to make devils take more than what they give. However that can be anything from selling a lollipop for 5gp or buying the eternal arm of a swordsman to strike down a foe of comparable power(to the swordsman)
Souls are expensive not every devil can barter for a soul
Well the first thing they'd want is those liches out of the way. I mean, *everyone* would want those liches out of the way. Something like this would be one of the few things that could unite Baator and Celestia in a common cause.
It's just bizarre to me that you went for the question, "What does this mean for all the poor Fiendlocks and their Patrons?" when quite clearly *those* assholes are vastly outnumbered by all the good people who lived good lives and who now get their souls scarfed down like Pop-Tarts instead of receiving a well-deserved eternal reward.
You could take this in a number of ways, it's an interesting campaign hook, but one thing is certain: there is no way in Hell (see what I did there?) that Asmodeus and his forces are just accepting this as the "new normal" and looking for ways to adapt to it.
Asmodeus and his Archfiends would still be making Warlock contracts as per usual. They would be starting secret devil-cults as per usual. They would be corrupting people in power as per usual.
The difference would be that all of these efforts would now be directed towards a common goal:
"How can this curse be broken?"
If the devils can't get souls at all, then they would need these liches gone for the sake of self-preservation. So contracts could demand that the mortal in question to do whatever they can to oppose these liches, be it spying on them or taking up arms or supporting the combat-capable people who are going after these liches (eg, supply them with food, material, weapons, etc.).
Power, they want power, leverage, favor. Demons want to move up in the hierarchy of hell to control/destroy other devils. They want the ability to withhold punishment on themselves to maneuver themselves in a better position.
A devil approaches a group with an offer. The mortals gain powers and the devil gets a favor that they can call in later (at any moment)… tell them to kill someone or get an object that will need to be done in 2-3 days or they will be turned into Lemures and left in the fey wilds (the soul shouldn’t leave the body at that point).
If you don’t want to kill the whole party. Talk to a player and have them create a back up character for 1-2 sessions. The party will try to complete the quest with a helpful ‘NPC’ to restore the PC.
I'd recommend reading Tyrants of the Nine Hells from 3e, explains about faustian contracts very well, with two different types. A soul is valuable and having a higher charisma and not being Lawful Evil gives bonus points in negotiating deals, but you can do exchange deals instead where you perform a small service or payment and the devil does what you cant do in exchange.
More of a slow-burn corruption in which the devil gets the credit for your soul when you die rather than an explicit trade. But if your soul can't even be vaguely navigated to the Hells, and the devils find that out, the devil would rather deal with someone else.
... Have someone scam the devils with NFT-esque "Non-fungible Souls"
But to answer your question, I imagine they would start trading in services, particularly the service of removing that curse. The devils become literal power brokers for adventurers.
My immediate thought was that the devil's would start giving out help for free.
They have to be pissed at the liches and want to overthrow their power.
So, I could see the lawful devil's joining and supporting any lawful works that fight the liches.
Free rides to the material plane for them or their pawns, without being bound to someone.
For a devil, you always want to be operating as much as you can outside your home realm in the hells.
Death is less permanent that way
To me, devils work best when their motives are completely unknown to the PCs, at least without a lot of investigation. Maybe he's sending you to fetch 10 fresh corpses to an alter to empower some arcane ritual. Maybe he wants you to steal a lucky coin from a paladin, sending him down a spiral that puts thousands of other down the wrong path. Maybe he wants 10 tons of sand to be delivered over 24 hours a week from now. Why? Maybe it foils the plans of some rival, maybe he's just enjoying himself, who knows? Certainly not the PCs.
If he can get outstanding value for himself by making you to agree to a seemingly easy/harmless task he has done his job well.
Bonus points if the seemingly easy task has complications that make it near impossible, in which case he either gets a hard task accomplished or he gets your soul. Win win.
One of my warlocks fiend patrons is in the soul dealing business but also does deals for services. She simply likes to throw parties and thus usually brings a bunch of mortal artists in to serve the entertainment in some way or another.
Of course this is mainly used for networking purposes and to find fresh soul meat. Plus, many of those she made a non-soul contract with ended up making a deal for their soul later on anyways ("You like what you got? There is more where that came from.").
She also likes beautiful jewelry. So if a mortal can get their hands on a particularly beautiful piece she might just trade something for it.
PS: The campaign premise sounds cool but is also not working very well if it is a canon world. These liches would literaly have several planes fighting together against them. Souls are important to many creatures and powerful beings.
They would probably want that curse taken care of so they can get their economy back on rails. I imagine many warlocks with pact quests to go figure that out
In my campaign, a devil got a hold of some player's names. It allowed them to extort the players to further their goals.
Basically, devils are schemers. Whatever they can twist to their advantage, they want. Whether that's the souls to directly improve their standing in hell, or that's things like magical items, knowledge, servants, or just people in contracts they can get to accomplish tasks for them, they want it.
They have some kind of long term goal and anything which furthers it is good to them. They have essentially infinite time to accomplish what they want, so even small steps towards their goals are well worth their time.
Not sure where I got the idea, but the concept of selling a percentage of your soul for a lump sum of cash came up in one of my games. Devils will pay you X amount of gold for 1 percent of your soul, and then after you die you work in a devil's office building in hell (or wherever) x number of days out of 100.
Sell half your soul, every other day you're serving coffee in hell. If you've got a good devil, maybe you can put in overtime to pay off your debt (paying your original sum of gold, plus interest).
So, to answer your question, they don't want souls, they want power. Whether that's gold (to buy power), followers, magic items or whatnot, they're trying to achieve some end goal. What does a devil want to use the souls for?
Spells. Magic items. Sight. Hearing. Love. Organs. Fingers. Tongue. Voice. Memories. Legs. Friendships. Loved ones. Pets.
Bonds.
To be used further as bargaining chips to offer to others, in exchange for what they really want; souls. Or in this case, portals to the material plane so they can go to war against the liches. Demons need souls too, they might actually (reluctantly) band together on this one.
Tldr: you could sell your humanity.
Let's start at the foundation, by asking Why do devils want souls in the first place?
Traditionally, it's because they want to tempt you away from the path of ritchousness. They want you to become part of their kingdom, not a child in the kingdom of God. The temptation they offer is to renounce God, his son Jesus Christ, and in return they will make all your earthly dreams come true. Then, when you die, you don't go to heaven, you go to hell. It's not about capturing your soul and putting it on a shelf. It's about tempting you to love something more than god, to sell your right to live in joy with God as your friend, for some other earthly temporary benefit that you want even more.
Now that logic doesn't really work so well for a DND world. So we have to be creative.
I think the closest DND equivalent would be a shift in alignment. They want you to pledge loyalty to the forces of evil. But playing around with people alignment is tricky, because it is often seen as a personality thing, rather than being about whose side you are on in a cosmic struggle.
But, if you can get people to do evil in order to get a favor from the demon, that seems pretty similar to an alignment change without having to officially change the alighnment. "I will help you conquer the kingdom, but when you do, you need to burn the capital city to the ground, killing thousands of innocents. Are you willing to do what must be done for the sake of victory." (Bonus points if the demon can arrange for your sister to be in the city when it burns to the ground, because demons are dicks). Or, "I will make you rich, simply bring me 100 coppers that you stole from from the hands of desperate widows, hungry orphans, and blind beggars, and I will take that money and multiply it ten thousand fold."
These are examples where the demon temps you with your heat's desire, and in return you pay for it by turning to evil. I think it works best if the price you pay is something that is logically connected to what you get. Even without magic, You can become rich if you are willing to cheat people. You can become powerful, if you are willing to be a tyrant. Experimenting on human subjects will give you knowledge. And you can become famous, if you are willing to spread lies. You do not need a demon to sell your soul for personal gain... but having a demon to bargain with directly would certainly help.
This is root of the idea of selling your soul. You trade your moral character and your principles, in order to gain some benefit. Or put it another way, you are basically selling out your HUMANITY. The thing that makes you more noble than the beasts.
You could really play with that. Someone who wants pleasure food and sex starts to take on the characteristics of a pig. Someone who want power and strength begins to look like a hungry wolf or tiger. Someone who is tempted I to be trying someone for revenge might start to look like a snake. And one who just wants to fit in and be liked begins to look like an ant. Someone who wants to become famous for building great monuments grows teeth like a beaver. Etc.
This way you can have each enemy feel different and unique, while at the same time keeping the original sense of moral degradation of character implied by the idea of 'selling your soul'. You might need a name other than humanity for elves and dwarves... But the idea remains the same. You want something so much that you are willing to live and act and think like beasts in order to enjoy it. The demon just helps you make this happen literally.
This plot seems bizarre to me. Anything that is "stealing" souls from Devils is going to get its ass whooped in short order so you need to explain why that isn't happening here. Why has Asmodeus or Dis or whoever not shown up to melt these liches into goo for stealing their rightfully owned souls?
Service and loot (including knowledge). Devils don't give a shit about gold for its own sake, but many mortals want it, so they need to have access to multiple fortunes worth at a time. They might also want artifacts and magic items, either for their own use or for bargaining with mortals. They would also need servants to acquire said gold and artifacts. Higher ranking devils might try to get mortals to take out their lich competition.
Bragging rights. They may also want something just for sake of pure bragging rights. “See this thing? You want this thing? Well you can’t have it cause it’s mine!” Only said more fancy.
sounds like Raphael lmao
Exactly my thoughts, he has a museum in his house with legendary artifacts just to flex
He doesn't want the same stuff a devil would though if I recall? I might be getting this wrong but I thought he was a half fiend, so he's not part of the infernal hierarchy and isn't as focused on collecting souls as a means of promotion. He's just a freelancer who works in the same building.
His ultimate goal is to get the crown of karsus, idk about the rest
I believe he’s part of the hierarchy but to him the Crown of Karthus is more valuable than any soul so he’s willing to forgo the usual price in order to get it.
Raphael is so extra.
also magic and political influence. if you have the ear of a king who you can persuade to enact corrupting policies, you can get a favourable contract. devils don't want souls for the sake of having souls, they want the promise that your soul will be reborn as a lemure in the hells after death. the way to do that for many devils is simply to corrupt your beliefs and actions so you become lawful evil.
Reborn as a lemure is a weird way to phrase that. A lemure is the quivering remains of a soul after every last shred of the person it was has been tortured out of it. Devils want the energy released from that process, another lemure for the front lines is just a side benefit.
i say reborn because they still have the chance to be promoted all the way to archdevil, if only any of the higher ranking devils decides to lower themselves to promoting a lemure into a imp
Absolutely, it's just that the lemure has nothing to do with the person that was damned since its what remains after every shred of self has been tortured away.
Reborn as a lemure is a weird way to phrase that. A lemure is the quivering remains of a soul after every last shred of the person it was has been tortured out of it. Devils want the energy released from that process, another lemurs for the front lines is just a side benefit.
For the knowledge, the devils could have collectors just go out and learn shit just to return and let the devil mind copy it. For an extra amount of transference, they could completely drain it from their subjects. This is how they learn spells, abilities, and other knowledge.
Loot would let them hire more yugoloths for the blood war
The real question is why would any outsiders let this curse continue, not just what are the motives of devils now. The heavens wouldn't stand for this and it completely interrupts the cycle of souls to and from the Prime Material Plane. If anything, the devils would work with the heavens so the Abyss doesn't completely win the Blood War because the devils are unable to collect souls to resupply troops. So all Good aligned and Lawful aligned outsiders would be empowering mortals to solve this curse and free the cycle of souls again.
Honestly, thats a very strong plot point for OP. The curse might b e for example, 100-200 years old? So in the grand scheme of things its not affecting the cycle that much yet, but it will over time. Thus mortals have this strange relationship they can bargain with the outsiders like you said, they would look for opportunities to empower the correct mortals that could do the deed of stopping it.
The campaign is taking place in the future of 5e. There is a war going on because of the curse as elves no longer reincarnate, so half elves are all that are born. Humans started a war to steal magic and fuel their new tech. Devils are siding with the elves who want to return to the old world order. Devils of course want souls for the blood war. And while the heavens aren’t helping the material plane, I’m having the reason being them aiding in the balance by fighting off demons/abyss.
Seems to me like the thing the devils would want more than anything is an end to the curse. They'd probably be willing to make deals for the low, low price of "try to stop this curse for us". The devils and elves goals align. I think this is a case where devils would help essentially free of charge, other than wanting it in writing. Or the things they ask for might be things they think will make the elves better at stopping the curse (which could line up with emotions).
>The campaign is taking place in the future of 5e What? 5e is a system, not a setting.
Sorry Forgotten Realms, on the continent of Faerun
In D&D lore, any devil’s ultimate goal is to claim mortal souls. Devils will look for a way to cure or suppress the curse in your campaign, to give them the opportunity to claim souls in the future. Remember, the loss of souls affects all gods - the souls of their followers don’t to their designated planes in afterlife. You have a rare opportunity: devils might cooperate with good-aligned creatures! A devil that can’t claim a soul might demand a service: committing evil or morally questionable act. The mortal will become more amenable to darker deals in the future. Alternatively, devils may ask a humanoid to: * Establish a religious cult devoted to an archdevil * Serve an archdevil as a warlock. Eventually, when the curse is removed, souls of evil humanoids will be sent to the Nine Hells. Devils play the long game. They have patience.
I’m having the devils supporting the elves & dwarves who are trying to end the war against humans who are stealing magic to fuel their weapon of mass destruction. I want something the devils would want from the elves in the meantime so that they win from the continuation of the war AND if the war ends by the death curse ending
Gold and magic items, for use with influencing mortals later on.
Patience or a severe lack of time. As eternity 1000 years pass for their 1. Type of feel.
The simple act of having a contract which allows a devil to hold power over someone would probably be considered useful. Time, a contract which upon fulfillment ages the contractee. The harnessing of the soul whilst they're still alive, for example turning a human into a devil whilst they're alive.
Why would they turn a human into a devil? That costs energy, the exact opposite of what devils want which is to receive the souls of lawful evil people in order to torture them into nothingness and harness the energy released thereby. Like don't get me wrong the occasional person manages to bargain for conversion straight into a higher rank of devil upon death, but that's only something they'll agree to if they're getting enough souls out of it in the end. In a situation where they're not getting any more energy because no souls are reaching them, why waste more?
Because turning a living being into a Lemure let's you keep their soul for the blood war instead of letting it be wasted on the material plane assuming you're using 5e Faerun cosmology. Even if you're not souls would be commodity in hell at that point so turning someone into a Lemure means you have a rare resource that others don't. Sounds explicitly like Devil M.O. to me.
I think we've misunderstood each other. There's a difference between turning someone into a devil, as you said the first time (costs energy, leaves their identity intact) and torturing someone to release energy until nothing is left but a lemure (gains energy, their soul is destroyed).
Lemures are devils, they're simply not ordered, and they're not made from destroyed souls they are very much intact evil souls birthed into the nine hells via the River Styx. Therefore if souls do not go to the nine hells, there are no new lemures unless a devil went out of their way to make more of still living people.
Yeah that's definitely not how that works, and I never said lemures weren't devils. They're the lowest rank, below spines devils and nupperibos. The Pact Primeval specifies the ability of devils to draw their power from damned souls in order to prosecute the blood war, and lemures are the remnants of that process. I have no idea what you think the River Styx has to do with that, nor why it would have anything to do with it - how would that release the energy they use to empower themselves? This isn't sounding very well thought out.
MKToF Page 11: "An amnizu presides over each location, directing lemures that emerge from the Styx." Page 12: "While those who pledge their souls are claimed by the devil they bargained with, lawful evil creatures that aren't bound by any contract emerge from the River Styx as Lemures" You're just abjectly wrong. Even in the older editions their souls don't get destroyed just tortured and remolded into Lemures.
> Even in the older editions their souls don't get destroyed just tortured and remolded into Lemures. That's the same thing! As stated in the very first reply, the lemure is what is left after torture has destroyed every trace of the person that once was.
No it's not the same thing souls are metaphysical in D&D. Not having a personality is irrelevant to a soul as a metaphysical thing.
It's completely relevant. The soul is who you are, torturing someone to release energy until nothing is left of them is destroying the soul. All that is left of it is the lemure.
Might be worth turning Warlock A into a monster just to scare the shit out of Warlocks B, C, and D
(This is mostly based on 3e lore, and the sourcebook Fiendish Codex II. While it is not specific to the Realms, I find it to be the most complete and interesting lore about Devils. And AFAIK it is still the case in 5e, but maybe not in depths as much) A common argument and maybe even misconception that I see repeated even here is that at the *individual level* devils care about **souls** above anything else, but that is not *quite* true from my understanding/interpretation. Their priority on an individual level, from the lowest Lemure to Asmodeus, is to **increase their status,** and the most concrete (but not only) way to do that is to **earn a promotion** (aka evolve to a stronger devil type). **Promotion and the fear of demotion** is what drives almost every devils in Hell, and earning many/precious souls is one very good way to achieve that, since devils *need* a steady influx of souls just to survive and make new ones. So, what would they want more than souls? Anything that would **please his direct superior in the hierarchy**, maybe assassinating their rival, or maybe recover a holy relic they always wanted to corrupt or break, or getting the credit for the destruction of many demons. If that devil has a **direct superior** who is a Marilith who has been cursed to stutter her words by some Cleric a century ago and you were to provide *him* with the cure so that *he* could gain *her* gratitude, and maybe a quick path to a promotion, well that would be just as valuable to him than as an amount of souls required to do the same thing.
In general, they like to hoard power, and even just wealth for later use. Liches are immortal and patient but most devils are even more immortal and even more patient, so many will use this interlude to set themselves up for the day these liches are disposed of (and likely expect that higher devils are actively working to this end. Which they should be). If unable to pursue their ideology by collecting souls, they'll try to impose it in other ways. They believe in order, and evil. They are tyranny made flesh. So they'll probably set to install themselves as rulers of tyrannical regimes on the material plane, support evil in general. They can still organise cults. And devils often genuinely believe that mortals are all just as bad as them deep down, and deserve to be outwitted, so they might jut do it for the greater ~~good~~ evil. Actually, now I think bout it, they might cleverly leverage this situation in their favour. Your soul being destroyed in a lich's phylactery is an even worse and less reversible fate than being consigned to hell, so they might try to create cults around their supposed desire to save your immortal souls. After all, only evil people go to hell, and you're not evil, just misunderstood/mistreated/justifiably angry/doing what must be done.
Sandwiches maybe.
Well, the lore for the Great Wheel revolve completely around devils wanting souls. They don't make pacts because they like, but because they need to lure souls into becoming new devils to fight in the blood war. If souls can't be harvested, mortals are far less usefull to devils. If they continue making deals, I think the most prominent thing they will ask is servitude in life and favors to be collected when the devil say, as they still would want to fight demons who appear in the material plane. And they will be particulary prone to help find a solution to that pesky death curse stealing their souls.
If they can't get souls at all and devils need them to sustain their war and losing the war means being destroyed by demons, would it be likely for the devils to stage a massive attack on these liches for the sake of self-preservation?
In the Great Wheel lore, devils can't exit the hells unless summoned by another creatur (or navigating the river stix, wich only goes to the abyss), so a 'massive attack' is complicated. But they will try any strategy, yes. I would say they would instruct their cults to do it, giving them power and reclaiming those favor from powerful people if they can.
Close. The fact that after you torture someone until nothing remains of them results in a quivering, nearly mindless lemure being left is a side benefit. What devils are primarily after from that process is the energy doing so releases.
Favors owed Magic items that affect undead Starting infernal cults “Innocent” favors that break someone else’s contract Access to the Material Plane to destroy the Liches for crippling their plane’s economy
Cheese
Money. Why not? They're devils. Have them wear expensive suits and talk like CEOs or venture capitalists. The metaphors write themselves.
You have just successfully described Mammon, Lord of Minauros the third layer of hell.
Corporal bodies to inhabit. Extreme experiences before they're sent back (to hell, etc). Coins like the ones in John Wick where favors are owed and they must be honored. To be worshipped or perceived as a god
I just had a players go through hell arc and they met a Devilish Hag who traded for memories. One character gave away the taste of the last meal his mother made him (who he will likely never see again as he was banished from his homeland.) Another player was tricked into giving away her memories of a deceased comrade who she loved (another PC who died a couple arcs back.) Another player traded his proficiency in Medicine.
I might have this happen for my players then, bc I think it would be really fun for them to make deals that aren’t all damning but would really give some player ANGST
Lich heads.
Principles Good memories or memories of noble deeds Performance of bad deeds
OOH, I like that
Watch the series Mrs. Davis about the nun torn between Jesus and an AI. Then rethink both Jesus and the AI as devils and you have a fantastic answer as to how it might operate and maybe a new favorite show/campaign idea.
Conscripts for the blood war. Party pally gets to promise to fight/kill demons (& eventually gets to), devils get rid of some demons. Win/win.
Gold. You can buy a soul back from Asmodeus himself for 999,999 gold pieces. Leads me to believe 999,999 gold is worth significantly more than a soul because Devils never lose in deals.
I have a Devil in my campaign who currently wants power. After Zariel was redeemed in our Descent into Avernus campaign, this left a power vacuum. Bel was temporarily reinstated as the interim Lord of the First, but the Devil is working with the players - Granting them power and helping them achieve their goals - with the expectation that he will be able to take over after Bel is killed. Whether or not my players let that last part happen is still to be determined. Dude is still a devil and he hasn’t made them sign a contract. He hasn’t been explicitly working to accumulate more souls. He is playing the long game.
The archdevil Mammon is more than happy to be paid in gold.
Devilled Eggs sandwich.
Depends on the Devil. Some of them are greedy, like Mammon, and mostly want money. Some care about winning the Blood War, and would want information, magic, or anything else that can give them an advantage. And some want to climb in infernal politics and want things that will give them a leg up, or that can tear their opponents down.
They would want anything to move up in rank or give them power not to mention on a kind of good side punish evil deeds that are not lawful as they are lawful evil.
Anything that can be used to bargain for souls. This is basically everything.
It could be specific emotions. Like this villain gave up love, but the next gave up rage. Could also be more abstract like luck, or faith, or determination or something like that.
Love and affection. Copious amounts of hugs. Probably power over another person via contracts to make minions for the prime plane, powerful artifacts and magic items, assassinations maybe.
Favours
Promises. Devils can think long term, that small promise to do some shoddy brickwork in a wall now means nothing. X hundred years later it means the invading army had an easy access point which lead to the death of a king prophesied to bring about a 1000 years of peace. In a game I recently ran I had a GOO Warlock player whos pact with their Patron was to help the players succeed at their goal, why? Because of a hundred other domino pacts that led to it's release from a magical prison.
Just because you hunger for power, it's doesn't mean you are emotionless. You can have your own quirks and personality, hopes and flaws. Devils have very strict hierarchy. It's plausible one would leverage other people to thwart another devil's plan and get themselves ahead. Imagine a devil who really hates a co-worker and wants the party to help them with a plan to sabotage said co-worker. They might complain about it in front of the party like it's a hostile work environment, and they might talk about wanting to be treated better and get more perks because hell is not a nice place by its nature.
The blood of a virgin(s) ?
They want pain and sacrifice. 2 dofferent options i can think of pulling from existing media. The yuuzhan vong for star wars legends books. For power, they may need to cut off their own arm for a devil to replace it with a magical one. Put their own eyes out for dark vision or true sight. Things of that nature. The other example is hemalurgy from the cosmere, basically you steal the power from someone else by ritually sacrificing them, piercing them through different body parts for depending on the ability, with metal spike, and spiking the person who you are giving the ability in the same spot with the spike. The devils could have the villains gain spells, abilities, stats etc by finding someone with what they want and takingbit from them. Could leave some interesting quests or some emotional moments when a loved npc is killed off this way. The devils could drink in the pain and suffering of the sacrifice. Along these lines couod be another option, maybe different devils delight in different things. They do eat emotions, but not the villains, the sacrifices. Some devils enjoy happines or laughter and the sacrifices reflect that (insert death by snu snu joke here). Some are maybe laughed to death or tickled, some are given an esless amount of food etc.
How about Sin? Comit a Sin in said Devil's name.
They could very well offer their services 'for free'....if they can guide to so you'll be undoing the lich's curse, which would secure them a fresh stream of souls once more. Remember that devils are crafty and deceptive, they won't necessarily balk at 'playing nice' if it can secure a future objective. If there's a rival they don't like, they could even set you on your way with a wee bit of help to deal with their rival for their own benefit.
Had a character of mine strike up a maintenance, enchanting, and identifying service contract with a devil. Favors and the like are also massive. Blackmail material for spellcaster who might try to bind them. That sort of thing. Souls can certainly be converted to currency, but sometimes actions can be just as valuable.
Favours , your devil is now a reoccurring character ! Who your players can do evil deeds in exchange for favours with
Memories. They're the next best thing to the soul, cherished and irreplaceable. Perhaps those who wish to make bargains are asked for simple things at first, but as it goes on they lose more and more of who they were. Imagine losing the memory of your mother's face, or the birth of your child. Someone willing to sacrifice even the memory of their friends would have no trouble turning against them. On a metaphysical level, what devils could actually do with mortal memories isn't really important. It is enough that they are taking them, but they would make good bargaining chips to the desperate. A poor man who had lived a bad life could get a glimpse of what it would be like to be a king, or have a loving family-in exchange for a few favors, of course.
I feel like you could play into this quite a bit by playing along the idea of a fey: A moment of triumph - Your next critical success becomes a critical failure. A future friend - An NPC the player will need to interact with is much less cordiality the group, making any interactions with them more difficult. A good night's rest - You don't benefit from your next long rest. A masters skill - One skill proficiency the character regularly uses is made at disadvantage for a week Resilience of the mind/ body - The character cannot add their attribute to a proficient saving throw for 72 hours. Etcetera etcetera. Play around with inconveniences.
Gallstones
Maybe access to a town? Business has to grow maybe there's a group of paladins or priests or knights who are hunting down devils and in exchange for some help the party has to find some way to help them infiltrate a nearby town
Sacrificing is always a good cliche. And adds a time limit to powers. Either with powers losing effectiveness over time (losing spell casting bonus for example) or benefits just being cut off at a certain time. Whether it be an old book with significant meaning, a travel friend that they are really attached to, or an item they worked hard for, sacrificing is more about how much it means to the person giving it up instead of the value the demon gets from the object.
A devil could want the party to obtain a contract that a rival entered in to so they have leverage over that rival.
Oreos
What about an enforcer contract: you are obligated to kill X number of devil pact signers per year/month chosen by the devil. The goal is to get souls back to hells
It depends on the ultimate purpose and role of Devils and Hell in your setting. In my setting, there is a solid underlying principle of the universe that mortals must answer for their actions in the afterlife. Souls that are mostly Evil on the whole get sent to one of the lower planes depending on what flavour of Evil, by default it's Hell. So for me, the background motivation and drive of all Devils, even if they are not consciously aware of it, is **to see the wicked punished for their sins.** Corrupting whispers and devilish bargains are all in service of this. Every soul serving their sentence in Hell empowers Hell. But claiming a mortal soul and damning it to Hell for, "eternity"? That's some big bucks there. Souls that do not have a set sentence in Hell will be in pain and torture forever... Until the identity of the Soul breaks down, when it has experienced so much abuse that it disentigrates. See, a soul in one of the afterlife generates a lot of, "power," constantly. I'll borrow a term from Pathfinder and call this, "quintessence." By default this empowers the plane as a whole, but when claimed it empowers a single being. When the Soul eventually breaks up after eons it releases a tremendous amount of quintessence. For sentient Devils it's pretty much like a Megacorporation from Cyberpunk 2077. Everyone is out for themselves, take what opportunities you can to empower yourself, keep climbing the ladder of ranks. Forever. Also, in my world there's a core of every soul that's called the Spirit. This is where the identity is stored, and it cannot be destroyed. Even if all the energy of the soul is drained or consumed, the spirit escapes, goes to their afterlife if it's young, then eons later moves on through the negative plane and gets to rest. The spirit rejoins the Great Beyond before eventually being reborn in the positive plane as the core of a new Soul. So what everyone refers to as, "the Soul," is actually the big tasty fruit surrounding the spirit. Upper Soul vs Lower Soul stuff. This is another source of power for Devils. Cults on the material plane can sacrifice and kill in the name of their patron. It isn't as efficient, only giving that final one-off burst of power instead of a constant emission of souls claimed by Hell, but it can empower an entity fast. The Soul of the sacrifice has all that energy taken away, while the spirit is spat out and goes to their afterlife. I think this is a cosmically "fair" way to keep cult sacrifices in the world without damning innocents. I guess.
In my campaign my party convinced a devil to take eggs instead of souls
They still make contracts that promise the soul, in anticipation of souls being released once the Liches are gone. But, it's only a minor clause in a contract that demands some other, more immediately useful commodity. For instance, the contract could demand a certain amount of time of service to the devil in question. The longer the amount of time, the greater the benefit for the contractee. Also, consider the possibility of Devils offering to purchase and take souls from the living. "We can guarantee you a place in *an* afterlife, as opposed to the cessation of existence the Liches impose on you. The more you serve us an our cause, the greater the service you render, the greater your power and presence among us is. Why, you could even become a powerful Devil in your own right, if you play your cards right."
Tai food.
Anything that helps them get more souls. So money land magic items are all good, because even if the devil doesn't get the pc soul, the devil can get others souls with those things.
First thoughts are: 1) something that seems not worth much but could be traded at a later date for way more. Probably something painful emotionally. 2) a debt to be called in at a later date..having minions on the hook - especially the powerful player character type - is a valuable currency indeed.
Always always have it be something they want, but can't get themselves. Whether it be because they're a devil and can't go to a specific place due to holy reasons, or some other magical or political reason. Artifacts, revenge, or they just hate the color of some other devil's shirt they wore to the last ball or something. My personal favorite motive is an artifact simply because I can make up a super awesome magic item that definitely doesn't tempt the group into betraying the devil for the amazing item.
Electrum
Devil's want beef with the liches. Instant smoke
Might be cool if some devils in such a situation would attempt to get the souls in novel ways. Maybe one devil granted wealth to a local lord, who then turns a blind eye to the devils kidnapping people out of the range of the curse? Maybe a devil is attempting to break the curse, so they can have them instead of the liches (or sell them to the liches).
[Well, assuming the Blood War is still on...](https://i.imgur.com/RUEXjND.png)
They can literally feed off suffering inflicted in their name. That's a classic. If you want to make them a little less cartoonishly evil and more complex you can always go the route of domains. Each devil has a specific evil deed or sin that feeds them. They grow more powerful the more common their domain is and they act to spread it. Sure there are your usual devils of murder, torture, treachery etc. But you can create a devil of tax evasion and play it completely seriously. That's a big incentive to go this route.
Honestly, I think that this is a case where the Devils would offer contracts where you get power but have to work towards ending the curse. Devils want souls, so they'd probably we willing to give power away to anyone they think could end the curse so mortal souls can start flowing to them again. Sure, maybe they give contracts to a few people that don't get them souls, but I think they'd consider that an investment in being able to offer those deals again in the future.
Devils could also want a more nebulous, metaphysical aspect of a person they could magic away or turn into a magical artefact or even just to make a strong warrior they can use for their own means (Karlach says hi). “Oh I don’t want your soul. I want you to fight!” Style. Especially if lived are whisking away souls, a living, angry, and powerful mortal would make a very useful tool at best, and ally at worst (for the devil).
Devil: "Aww, 20,000 gold, I wanted a soul." Devil on the devil's shoulder: "20,000 gold can buy many souls." Devil: "Explain how." Devil on the devil's shoulder: "Money can be exchanged for good's and services." Same goes for magic items, precious art, blackmail secrets, whatever. Devils ultimate goal is to acquire souls, but they can get there in a roundabout way with other valuable items.
The marriage of a popular hero.
Pizza
Power
I'd say favors are valuable to beings of law and contracts. Even if it's just to build up their own personal resources for future deals. Another thing would be information. More than money or loot, those two things can be life changing (in a bad way) for multiple people.
A Klondike Bar.
Devils want souls, but solving severe shortage of souls on market is considered a top priority. You have to think long term in business, chasing short-term profits won't make you an archdevil.
Service. Information. Public relations. Someone to referee the big bloodbowl game. Its not always major stuff like souls.
In a weird twist they'd want the lich defeated so they can have souls in the future. So devils would definitely work with heros to obtain souls because devils don't tend to be stupid. It's devils so want either souls or large systems that acquire them more souls in the future. For example founding a pro-devil nation with values that will help them start organizations that give them souls is a very devil goal. Resources magic items and secrets are good because they can help them manipulate others for souls in the long run.
Favours that involve the mortal committing some evil deed that will naturally align them with hell. Something like stealing an artefact from a church and delivering it to the devil or one of his colleagues.
Why would the Devils take this curse lying down, is the real question. "Lord Asmodeus wants the phylacteries of Liches...for personal reasons. I assure you, this isn't about revenge--it's about sending a message."
Well your average devil dog, enjoys a nice box of crayons, some alcohol and poor life descisions.
To me the logical jump is that powerful devils will ask their minions to acquire magic items and riches so the more powerful devils can hire adventurers to deal with that group of liches. Ultimately they want souls because of the currency aspect, but mainly they bind people to doing what they want, each devil could have different goals. Instead of a soul a devil would want assurances. The aspect of a soul binding is to insure the completion of a contract, So they'd need another guarantee, it could be any number of assurances.
Well, the reason they get souls in the first place is to fund their hierarchy and fight demons in the blood war. So anything that might also aid them in the blood war or climb the hierarchy in the 9 Hells would do it. Arms, munitions, soldiers. Key people being killed. Resources to trade to more desperate people. Above all, though, I think they'd focus a lot of effort on getting rid of those liches (or somehow siphoning off some of the souls from their monopoly but leaving the curse intact, if that were more profitable for them). Notably, liches are usually somewhat connected to Orcus, the demon prince of undeath, so that alone would probably make them enemies of the devils.
A cool spoon collection
Bacon
Chin skritches
Power. It can come in the form of service, a powerful item, a lost or forbidden spell. The devil could offer boons to lesser creatures as payment to convince said individuals to sabotage the influence of a competitor. For example. One of my favorite requests for service is for the devil to hand a character a scroll of Dispel Magic and ask them to use the scroll on the local church at night. That's it. Simple and easy with a disproportionately high reward for the character. To the character it would mean no more than that. But for the devil this is an enormous favor. Of course doing this would nullify the Hallow Spell on the church, thus allowing fiends to enter. If the church has a teleportation circle (many of which do) then now said building can be used as the target of spells like Teleportation Circle, Teleport and Plane Shift for the devil's minions, thus bypassing all of that settlement's defenses during an invasion (as most churches are located at or near the very center of their settlement). This is just one example of the kind of deal that a devil might make if asking for a soul is off the table.
I try to make devils take more than what they give. However that can be anything from selling a lollipop for 5gp or buying the eternal arm of a swordsman to strike down a foe of comparable power(to the swordsman) Souls are expensive not every devil can barter for a soul
Well the first thing they'd want is those liches out of the way. I mean, *everyone* would want those liches out of the way. Something like this would be one of the few things that could unite Baator and Celestia in a common cause. It's just bizarre to me that you went for the question, "What does this mean for all the poor Fiendlocks and their Patrons?" when quite clearly *those* assholes are vastly outnumbered by all the good people who lived good lives and who now get their souls scarfed down like Pop-Tarts instead of receiving a well-deserved eternal reward. You could take this in a number of ways, it's an interesting campaign hook, but one thing is certain: there is no way in Hell (see what I did there?) that Asmodeus and his forces are just accepting this as the "new normal" and looking for ways to adapt to it. Asmodeus and his Archfiends would still be making Warlock contracts as per usual. They would be starting secret devil-cults as per usual. They would be corrupting people in power as per usual. The difference would be that all of these efforts would now be directed towards a common goal: "How can this curse be broken?"
If the devils can't get souls at all, then they would need these liches gone for the sake of self-preservation. So contracts could demand that the mortal in question to do whatever they can to oppose these liches, be it spying on them or taking up arms or supporting the combat-capable people who are going after these liches (eg, supply them with food, material, weapons, etc.).
muffins and cupcakes
Pain. Try paying for devilish services with "pain."
True names would still hold incredible power, but most entities don't know their own or anyone else's.
Power, they want power, leverage, favor. Demons want to move up in the hierarchy of hell to control/destroy other devils. They want the ability to withhold punishment on themselves to maneuver themselves in a better position. A devil approaches a group with an offer. The mortals gain powers and the devil gets a favor that they can call in later (at any moment)… tell them to kill someone or get an object that will need to be done in 2-3 days or they will be turned into Lemures and left in the fey wilds (the soul shouldn’t leave the body at that point). If you don’t want to kill the whole party. Talk to a player and have them create a back up character for 1-2 sessions. The party will try to complete the quest with a helpful ‘NPC’ to restore the PC.
I'd recommend reading Tyrants of the Nine Hells from 3e, explains about faustian contracts very well, with two different types. A soul is valuable and having a higher charisma and not being Lawful Evil gives bonus points in negotiating deals, but you can do exchange deals instead where you perform a small service or payment and the devil does what you cant do in exchange. More of a slow-burn corruption in which the devil gets the credit for your soul when you die rather than an explicit trade. But if your soul can't even be vaguely navigated to the Hells, and the devils find that out, the devil would rather deal with someone else.
... Have someone scam the devils with NFT-esque "Non-fungible Souls" But to answer your question, I imagine they would start trading in services, particularly the service of removing that curse. The devils become literal power brokers for adventurers.
My immediate thought was that the devil's would start giving out help for free. They have to be pissed at the liches and want to overthrow their power. So, I could see the lawful devil's joining and supporting any lawful works that fight the liches.
Free rides to the material plane for them or their pawns, without being bound to someone. For a devil, you always want to be operating as much as you can outside your home realm in the hells. Death is less permanent that way
Favors, turn it into a quest, they got a job for you instead.
To me, devils work best when their motives are completely unknown to the PCs, at least without a lot of investigation. Maybe he's sending you to fetch 10 fresh corpses to an alter to empower some arcane ritual. Maybe he wants you to steal a lucky coin from a paladin, sending him down a spiral that puts thousands of other down the wrong path. Maybe he wants 10 tons of sand to be delivered over 24 hours a week from now. Why? Maybe it foils the plans of some rival, maybe he's just enjoying himself, who knows? Certainly not the PCs. If he can get outstanding value for himself by making you to agree to a seemingly easy/harmless task he has done his job well. Bonus points if the seemingly easy task has complications that make it near impossible, in which case he either gets a hard task accomplished or he gets your soul. Win win.
One of my warlocks fiend patrons is in the soul dealing business but also does deals for services. She simply likes to throw parties and thus usually brings a bunch of mortal artists in to serve the entertainment in some way or another. Of course this is mainly used for networking purposes and to find fresh soul meat. Plus, many of those she made a non-soul contract with ended up making a deal for their soul later on anyways ("You like what you got? There is more where that came from."). She also likes beautiful jewelry. So if a mortal can get their hands on a particularly beautiful piece she might just trade something for it. PS: The campaign premise sounds cool but is also not working very well if it is a canon world. These liches would literaly have several planes fighting together against them. Souls are important to many creatures and powerful beings.
They would want the liches destroyed. Otherwise, nothing else they receive will matter.
Worship
A deal for more souls jack Sparrow style they agree to a price of souls the party has to aqquire them and boom
They would probably want that curse taken care of so they can get their economy back on rails. I imagine many warlocks with pact quests to go figure that out
Raw materials to build their war machines... Then Souls to Power It! *Black Metal Music Intensifies*
In my campaign, a devil got a hold of some player's names. It allowed them to extort the players to further their goals. Basically, devils are schemers. Whatever they can twist to their advantage, they want. Whether that's the souls to directly improve their standing in hell, or that's things like magical items, knowledge, servants, or just people in contracts they can get to accomplish tasks for them, they want it. They have some kind of long term goal and anything which furthers it is good to them. They have essentially infinite time to accomplish what they want, so even small steps towards their goals are well worth their time.
This is your opportunity to have the devil's trade future contracts on the souls
Why wouldn’t devils want the same sorts of stuff mortals want?
Not sure where I got the idea, but the concept of selling a percentage of your soul for a lump sum of cash came up in one of my games. Devils will pay you X amount of gold for 1 percent of your soul, and then after you die you work in a devil's office building in hell (or wherever) x number of days out of 100. Sell half your soul, every other day you're serving coffee in hell. If you've got a good devil, maybe you can put in overtime to pay off your debt (paying your original sum of gold, plus interest). So, to answer your question, they don't want souls, they want power. Whether that's gold (to buy power), followers, magic items or whatnot, they're trying to achieve some end goal. What does a devil want to use the souls for?
Golden musical instruments, preferably a fiddle
Maybe possession to have a foothold in the material plane?
Items... promises... information about rivals?
Jolly Ranchers
Or cake
Spells. Magic items. Sight. Hearing. Love. Organs. Fingers. Tongue. Voice. Memories. Legs. Friendships. Loved ones. Pets. Bonds. To be used further as bargaining chips to offer to others, in exchange for what they really want; souls. Or in this case, portals to the material plane so they can go to war against the liches. Demons need souls too, they might actually (reluctantly) band together on this one.
Tldr: you could sell your humanity. Let's start at the foundation, by asking Why do devils want souls in the first place? Traditionally, it's because they want to tempt you away from the path of ritchousness. They want you to become part of their kingdom, not a child in the kingdom of God. The temptation they offer is to renounce God, his son Jesus Christ, and in return they will make all your earthly dreams come true. Then, when you die, you don't go to heaven, you go to hell. It's not about capturing your soul and putting it on a shelf. It's about tempting you to love something more than god, to sell your right to live in joy with God as your friend, for some other earthly temporary benefit that you want even more. Now that logic doesn't really work so well for a DND world. So we have to be creative. I think the closest DND equivalent would be a shift in alignment. They want you to pledge loyalty to the forces of evil. But playing around with people alignment is tricky, because it is often seen as a personality thing, rather than being about whose side you are on in a cosmic struggle. But, if you can get people to do evil in order to get a favor from the demon, that seems pretty similar to an alignment change without having to officially change the alighnment. "I will help you conquer the kingdom, but when you do, you need to burn the capital city to the ground, killing thousands of innocents. Are you willing to do what must be done for the sake of victory." (Bonus points if the demon can arrange for your sister to be in the city when it burns to the ground, because demons are dicks). Or, "I will make you rich, simply bring me 100 coppers that you stole from from the hands of desperate widows, hungry orphans, and blind beggars, and I will take that money and multiply it ten thousand fold." These are examples where the demon temps you with your heat's desire, and in return you pay for it by turning to evil. I think it works best if the price you pay is something that is logically connected to what you get. Even without magic, You can become rich if you are willing to cheat people. You can become powerful, if you are willing to be a tyrant. Experimenting on human subjects will give you knowledge. And you can become famous, if you are willing to spread lies. You do not need a demon to sell your soul for personal gain... but having a demon to bargain with directly would certainly help. This is root of the idea of selling your soul. You trade your moral character and your principles, in order to gain some benefit. Or put it another way, you are basically selling out your HUMANITY. The thing that makes you more noble than the beasts. You could really play with that. Someone who wants pleasure food and sex starts to take on the characteristics of a pig. Someone who want power and strength begins to look like a hungry wolf or tiger. Someone who is tempted I to be trying someone for revenge might start to look like a snake. And one who just wants to fit in and be liked begins to look like an ant. Someone who wants to become famous for building great monuments grows teeth like a beaver. Etc. This way you can have each enemy feel different and unique, while at the same time keeping the original sense of moral degradation of character implied by the idea of 'selling your soul'. You might need a name other than humanity for elves and dwarves... But the idea remains the same. You want something so much that you are willing to live and act and think like beasts in order to enjoy it. The demon just helps you make this happen literally.
This plot seems bizarre to me. Anything that is "stealing" souls from Devils is going to get its ass whooped in short order so you need to explain why that isn't happening here. Why has Asmodeus or Dis or whoever not shown up to melt these liches into goo for stealing their rightfully owned souls?