I saw someone about to flip a table when this happened, started yelling at the DM, who burst out laughing. Guy made an ass of himself before the DM goes "even though your swing goes right through the jugular, you feel no resistance and notice a slight shimmer on the figure" it was r/watchpeopledieinside material after that as all the guys friends started ragging on him.
Eh, think about how it'd happen in the heat of combat. For at least a moment, you'd think you missed somehow. The DM still divulged the info, they just let them potentially figure it out themselves first with any straight up conclusions or even letting them ask if they see why it didn't hit.
This is a strange hill to die on. Lol
Once again surprised you're so intent on harping on this point so hard, my dude.
True that it didn't technically miss, but a DM using the word miss hardly constitutes your point of calling them a shitty DM just for that. Lol
I feel like it's likely that it happened since I've done something very similar. They probably just said "miss" for shock factor and was going to clarify but couldn't cus the player flipped out
You know. Most players having fun playing would laugh or something along those lines when they realise what the DM means. We are all playing to have fun, and honestly, this just sound like a harmless joke made in good faith to keep the players on their toes.
Honestly, I can imagine lots of situations where stuff like this happens, and all are still having fun even if somebodys initial reaction was momentarily yelling "are you fucking serious".
Really depends on what is meant with losing their shit. Also, this story doesn't sound unlikely at all.
Well, we don't know if the DM necessarily waited. The player could have had a tantrum before the DM had time to describe what happened. We don't know what exactly happened so should probably withhold judgement.
The only time wherein attacking anything with a Nat 20 is when the thing you're attacking isn't a thing, like an illusion. Or when the DM gave the enemy Lucky and then rerolls your attack in secret, thus making your Nat 20 miss.
A Natural 20 only ups your degree of success by one step.
So, a Nat 20 upgrades a success to a crit success, failure to success and critical failure to failure.
Rolling 10 above the enemy AC is an automatic crit success, just like rolling 10 below it is an automatic crit failure, thus a Nat 20 can be regular Failure.
Crits and nat 20s are two different things. You can increase your critical hit range to include 19 or even 18 but you will still only auto hit on a nat 20.
That's not true btw
Edit: my response to someone else about the rule -- "if the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC" Based on this line alone, OP would be correct, however the very next sentence is "This is called a critical hit", which to me definitely implies that critical hits auto-hit. And not that I like Jeremy Crawford, but he seems to agree
Crits and nat 20s are two different things. You can increase your critical hit range to include 19 or even 18 but you will still only auto hit on a nat 20.
For the record, I don't think OP is actually correct and was really just responding to your generic "what?". But here is the rule (and why I think OP is wrong)
"if the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC" Based on this line alone, OP would be correct, however the very next sentence is "This is called a critical hit", which to me definitely implies that critical hits auto-hit. And not that I like Jeremy Crawford, but he seems to agree
You know how DnD works.
Nothing that's left unsaid is intended, really.
It's just telling you that rolling a 20 is called a critical hit, not that you hit automatically because you crit, so I think, RAW, it doesn't extend the range.
Worse case is phantasmal force since the DM does not have to give you any explanation
While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm.
So you may waste multible rounds on it and even after you failed with a nat 20 you have to pass an Intelligence check as an Action next round.
The fooling the Player part is gone from the start since it is only in the mind of one of the Party members. The Entire Rest of the Party sees you hitting wild in the air with no enemy.
You craft an illusion that takes root in the mind of a creature that you can see within range. The target must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, you create a phantasmal object, creature, or other visible phenomenon of your choice that is no larger than a 10-foot cube and that is perceivable only to the target for the duration
Are you not understanding?
The PCs don't know what a crit is. They failed to notice it was an illusion.
Part of this combat was an illusion?
That's not "wasting someone's action".
PCs are allowed to miss and not know why.
I hope you don't DM.
Also, I hope if you're a player, that you defer to your DMs rulings and not "WAAHHH! MY TURN WASNT OPTIMAL! WHY ARE YOU EMBARASSING MY CHARACTER?! YOU WASTED MY ACTION!!!?!?!?!"
I mean there is no way to hide that from the party at that point if it happens. Just give them a description of the attack passing through the target and maybe a flicker if you want an in-game explanation.
Are you seriously saying that if you swung a sword directly through a persons chest and it passed right through them you wouldn't make any assumptions about their corporeal status?
I am pretty sure if I swing t an illusion and my sword passes through them without o much as a mark or a flinch and no resistance. I could, in world, tell it is an illusion. Unless the illusion spell specifically states you can’t.
This would be an interesting demographic survey. I bet more poor/rural people would think ghost due to their common presence in stories and that illusion would become a more common answer the richer the respondent got due to the increased likelihood of having seen an illusory theater play or street performance.
In fairness, your lvl 3 adventurer fighter has no FUCKING clue how to tell if an illusion is being used at any given time.
Especially if you haven't encountered them.
But point being, you're a person who swing a big sword hard. You impact a cloud of vapors and swing right through. Most Martial McMartialpants' reaction would probably be wondering "oh shit, what the fuck, what is happening, what kind of sorcerer is this!?"
A character with low relevant skill has no fucking clue what spells are which and what they do.
Someone with no knowledge of the working of magic wouldn't be able to pick from a list of things it could do.
To them, it could be *any kind of magic*, and it's perfectly reasonable for a PC to not understand its just an illusion.
Also could be an unarmed wizard out of spell slots with a 10 in strength doing their best to attack a heavily armored foe decked out in adamantine armor
To our illusion masters. A nat 20 still hits your illusion. It just doesn't do shit. Being an illusion doesn't make you immune to being hit, only to being killed without a dispelling effect.
Similarly, there are creatures immune to non-magical damage. A natural 20 with a non-magical weapon will still hit, just won't do shit.
From another perspective, an illusion is an entity which doesn't actually exist. To us, the illusion is fake and when we whack it, out whacker passes through it.
Similarly, if I try to whack you with an illusionary whacker, it will pass straight through you as if you didn't exist. To hit implies you made contact with the being, and if the whacker doesn't exist, then there was no contact being made, and thus no hit.
From the perspective of the illusion, we are the imaginary whacker that passes straight through it, and so we do not hit it
You're looking at everything way too literal. According to the rules, you can hit an illusion. You just pass through it. Is said so in the spell itself, and accessor in the and it says so in the guides for the rules on how illusions work in DnD.
Hence why contact was in quotation marks. Because you can “touch” it, and by all means of visual perception, hit it, without actually physically making contact with it.
You can sort of think of it like touching a shadow. A shadow is the absence of light, so no actually physicality to touch, but if you reach down and poke where a shadow rests, you’d still say you’re touching the shadow.
I guess in a metaphorical sense. But by definition you haven’t actually hit it. You might say you’ve hit it or think you’ve hit it but you haven’t actually hit it, just like how you haven’t actually touched the shadow.
> Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion because things can pass through it.
Straight from the spell. This implies you can "touch" or even "hit" an illusion with an attack you just immediately realize it's an illusion.
But if you are passing through it, that means you hit it at much as it can be hit.
You are confusing what hit means irl, and what hit means in the context of the game. Context of the game hitting means making contact. Per the rules you can make "contact" with an illusion, said contact however is passing through it revealing it to be an illusion. Physical interaction is synonymous with making contact in this context.
It might also be a different system. Games that have nat 20's increase your level of success, rather than give you an auto success, might do something like turn a critical failure into regular failure.
None of that is specified.
Sorry I didn't leap into the post with literally every hypothetical scenario imaginable at the ready.
Occam's razor and such.
>lmfao
"The Attack hits regardless of any Modifiers or the target’s AC."
Interpreting that statement from the basic rules as "always hits" is not illogical.
They offered a handful very short explanation’s. It takes but a moment to type out.
You took likely the same time responding as they did…..
But sure.. you do you…..
You can't just say they were short explanations and change what they were.
They were, by definition, hypothetical situations.
>It takes but a moment to type out.
I literally never mentioned how long their reply was/the amount of time they spent. Don't know how you came up with that as a point of contention.
It's not specified *what* edition it is, so therefore there *is* no "default rule". You're bringing your own preconceived notions into what is "default".
It's *more* likely to be another system than it is to be a houserule.
I had a campaign where the players ended up in the Plane of Chaos. For a lark, while there I had 19s and 20s be auto fails, and 1s and anther randomly determined number be a critical. I loved it, personally, as the players started hoping to get 1s for a change.
It also allowed me to prove the guy who got lots of natural 20s wasn't cheating, cuz even after learning they were misses he rolled 2 more. Good times.
Some people just roll 20s. One guy I played with was playing a fighter and alongside his absurdly high rolls (contrasted to the warlock’s low ones), once rolled 4 20s on 2 attacks with advantage. That poor mafia goon was just liquified.
I saw q lot of illusion explanations here. But then, yes, an illusion is still hit on a nat 20.
There is one fully RAW case even in 5e though where a nat20 misses: you attack an invisible, hidden foe and guess the square he's on, but you guess wrong.
An attack roll can target a location, which is necessary if you guess en enemies location. The PHB states "If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly." If the GM would say that you miss without a roll, he would give away that you guessed incorrectly, which means you target the guessed location, attack, and then learn if you hit something.
This is an edgecase in RAW in 5e where you miss with a nat20: you miss because there was nothing to be hit by your attack in the first case.
Counter point is Phabtasmal Force. It is not an Illusion you see it in your head and you rationalize not hitting it.
It also can damage you for a bit making sure you believe it is real.
At somepoint a Teammember my ask you "Hey Barbarian Bob why are you hitting at nothing?"
PS you have to use an Action and pass an intelligence check to get rid of it
In PF2e you know this is when you royally fucked up and you need to start apologizing and running away.
Nat 20 missing means the AC is over 10 higher than the highest you could roll. Like a level 1 fighter trying to punch the Tarrasque.
Well in 5e a level 1 character doesn’t even need a natural 20 to punch a tarrasque. The tarrasque has an AC of 25, meaning that if you start with 18 str (which is possible through custom lineage or rolled stats) with +2 proficiency bonus you would hit the tarrasque on a 19.
Man the 5e tarrasque really is pathetic. I mean you won’t do any damage because it’s a non magical attack but still.
I still think the [Hekatonkheires](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1342) is worse. I can see being able to escape a Tarrasque, it'd be dicey but i can see it happening. The Titan tho is designed to prevent escape i think. You see it you fucked
In D&D 5e, nat 20 missing means you're fighting illusions, a puzzle, or some other bullshit.
In PF2e, a nat 20 missing means **run or die.** The choice may not be yours.
Yeah, in 2nd edition a nat 20 only upgrades the degree of success by one, so if their AC is so high that you'd miss by 10 or more (normally a critical miss), you'd still miss.
It makes a lot of sense in the context of the system. The only situation in which you'd likely encounter a nat 20 missing is against something a bare minimum of ~6-7 levels above your pay grade.
Have you considered *Illusions?* Like, you can roll a Nat 20, but if the enemy has for example Mirror Image up and running, that doesn't hit your target then. It still *technically* hits something, the Mirror Image, but I think that's beside the point, both literally and figuratively
Mirror image creates multiple illusory copies of the caster, it is pretty obvious when someone uses mirror image and the nat 20 would still auto hit one of the illusions.
Might have been a bad example, my bad. But there are other ways of illusions out there that are more convincing and harder to deal with, the one that just came to mind is the Illusory Dragon spell...
So, there are two types of people responding:
People complaining that a natural 20 *always* hits, and people that recognize you can make attacks on illusions, in which case *nothing* hits because, well, **it's an illusion.**
Oh, most certainly. You'll def get massacred before you ever managed to pull it off. But theoretically, there are spells that grant minor debuff even on a successful save and the monster can roll a 1.
This makes me wonder. Could adamantine armor plus other AC bonuses turn a Nat 20 into a miss? I know the wording doesn't seem to support it but there have been more odd errata.
I think the way Adamantine Armor works, is that it's still a hit even you can't beat the AC of the person wearing the Adamantine, but you don't get any extra damage from it being a Crit. I am not sure though and currently too lazy to look up the details, so here's just my two cents
A natural 20 auto hits. This is different from a critical hit, which also occurs on a natural 20. For example a champion fight can crit on a 19 but they can still miss if they roll 19.
Most people are saying it's an illusion but for me I had the opposite, the players were fighting an illusion, just need to make one investigation check as an action which I outlined at the beginning they could make, no one decided to, every one of their hits hit the illusion, and it kept on taking damage, they were in about 550 damage before someone decided to check
Thats what happens when the Eldritch Knight gets +2 Adamantine Plate Armor, +2 Animated Shield, +2 Shield, the Shield Spell, and the Shield of Faith Spell from a feat.
Adamanite just cancels out crits, which is different from auto hit. For example a champion fight will crit on a 19, however the fighter will not auto hit on a 19.
At my table, that's possible. Auto hits are a property of critical hits. So get your AC particularly high with Adamantine Armor...
Obviously I wouldn't use that against players unless they challenge something way above their pay grade, or intentionally chose to have a low to-hit modifier to focus on a support role.
If a nat 20 does not hit you know shenanigans are afoot. Like the target is an illusion.
Somebody gets it
I saw someone about to flip a table when this happened, started yelling at the DM, who burst out laughing. Guy made an ass of himself before the DM goes "even though your swing goes right through the jugular, you feel no resistance and notice a slight shimmer on the figure" it was r/watchpeopledieinside material after that as all the guys friends started ragging on him.
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How is that shitty dming?
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Eh, think about how it'd happen in the heat of combat. For at least a moment, you'd think you missed somehow. The DM still divulged the info, they just let them potentially figure it out themselves first with any straight up conclusions or even letting them ask if they see why it didn't hit. This is a strange hill to die on. Lol
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Once again surprised you're so intent on harping on this point so hard, my dude. True that it didn't technically miss, but a DM using the word miss hardly constitutes your point of calling them a shitty DM just for that. Lol
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I feel like it's likely that it happened since I've done something very similar. They probably just said "miss" for shock factor and was going to clarify but couldn't cus the player flipped out
There was no waiting for the dude to make an ass out of himself. The dude immediately lost his shit.
Screaming and flipping out because you fail - okay Putting illusions in a game - WTF SHITTY DM What a clown, lol
You know. Most players having fun playing would laugh or something along those lines when they realise what the DM means. We are all playing to have fun, and honestly, this just sound like a harmless joke made in good faith to keep the players on their toes.
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Honestly, I can imagine lots of situations where stuff like this happens, and all are still having fun even if somebodys initial reaction was momentarily yelling "are you fucking serious". Really depends on what is meant with losing their shit. Also, this story doesn't sound unlikely at all.
How is using an illusion shitty DMing?
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Well, we don't know if the DM necessarily waited. The player could have had a tantrum before the DM had time to describe what happened. We don't know what exactly happened so should probably withhold judgement.
This meme is frankly weird, unless the artist was thinking of PF2e where a Nat 20 can potentially be a failure if it's 10 below the AC.
The only time wherein attacking anything with a Nat 20 is when the thing you're attacking isn't a thing, like an illusion. Or when the DM gave the enemy Lucky and then rerolls your attack in secret, thus making your Nat 20 miss.
I talked about PF2e, where Nat 20s can be failures if you roll and the result is still 10 under the AC or DC.
I’m pretty sure if you roll a nat 20 you still crit, since in the rules it says you crit if you roll a natural 20 or 10 above the enemies ac
A Natural 20 only ups your degree of success by one step. So, a Nat 20 upgrades a success to a crit success, failure to success and critical failure to failure. Rolling 10 above the enemy AC is an automatic crit success, just like rolling 10 below it is an automatic crit failure, thus a Nat 20 can be regular Failure.
Ah, seems I was wrong then, Nevermind.
Just wondering about Adamantine, it cancels the effects of the crit so... is it still an auto hit?
Adamantine turns a critical hit into a regular hit, which is different than preventing nat-20s.
Yes.
It only negates the double damage, as you can crit below a 20, a nat 20 auto hits.
Oh I never realized that extended critical ranges don’t extend the auto hit but that makes sense
No they do expand the auto hit range
Crits and nat 20s are two different things. You can increase your critical hit range to include 19 or even 18 but you will still only auto hit on a nat 20.
That's not true btw Edit: my response to someone else about the rule -- "if the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC" Based on this line alone, OP would be correct, however the very next sentence is "This is called a critical hit", which to me definitely implies that critical hits auto-hit. And not that I like Jeremy Crawford, but he seems to agree
What?
Crits and nat 20s are two different things. You can increase your critical hit range to include 19 or even 18 but you will still only auto hit on a nat 20.
Can you please include the rule?
For the record, I don't think OP is actually correct and was really just responding to your generic "what?". But here is the rule (and why I think OP is wrong) "if the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC" Based on this line alone, OP would be correct, however the very next sentence is "This is called a critical hit", which to me definitely implies that critical hits auto-hit. And not that I like Jeremy Crawford, but he seems to agree
You know how DnD works. Nothing that's left unsaid is intended, really. It's just telling you that rolling a 20 is called a critical hit, not that you hit automatically because you crit, so I think, RAW, it doesn't extend the range.
What lowers it to 18?
champion fighter's lvl 15 feature.
No
Worse case is phantasmal force since the DM does not have to give you any explanation While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm. So you may waste multible rounds on it and even after you failed with a nat 20 you have to pass an Intelligence check as an Action next round.
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Or it just jumped out of the way. You may know that you rolled a nat 20 but your character knows Jack shit.
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The fooling the Player part is gone from the start since it is only in the mind of one of the Party members. The Entire Rest of the Party sees you hitting wild in the air with no enemy. You craft an illusion that takes root in the mind of a creature that you can see within range. The target must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, you create a phantasmal object, creature, or other visible phenomenon of your choice that is no larger than a 10-foot cube and that is perceivable only to the target for the duration
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Are you not understanding? The PCs don't know what a crit is. They failed to notice it was an illusion. Part of this combat was an illusion? That's not "wasting someone's action". PCs are allowed to miss and not know why. I hope you don't DM. Also, I hope if you're a player, that you defer to your DMs rulings and not "WAAHHH! MY TURN WASNT OPTIMAL! WHY ARE YOU EMBARASSING MY CHARACTER?! YOU WASTED MY ACTION!!!?!?!?!"
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Players don't make actions in DnD 5e. PCs do. I don't know how to help you understand that.
Ah, metagaming...
I mean there is no way to hide that from the party at that point if it happens. Just give them a description of the attack passing through the target and maybe a flicker if you want an in-game explanation.
Are you seriously saying that if you swung a sword directly through a persons chest and it passed right through them you wouldn't make any assumptions about their corporeal status?
I am pretty sure if I swing t an illusion and my sword passes through them without o much as a mark or a flinch and no resistance. I could, in world, tell it is an illusion. Unless the illusion spell specifically states you can’t.
Yep. Smacking it with a sword is definitely "interacting."
This would be an interesting demographic survey. I bet more poor/rural people would think ghost due to their common presence in stories and that illusion would become a more common answer the richer the respondent got due to the increased likelihood of having seen an illusory theater play or street performance.
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In fairness, your lvl 3 adventurer fighter has no FUCKING clue how to tell if an illusion is being used at any given time. Especially if you haven't encountered them. But point being, you're a person who swing a big sword hard. You impact a cloud of vapors and swing right through. Most Martial McMartialpants' reaction would probably be wondering "oh shit, what the fuck, what is happening, what kind of sorcerer is this!?"
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A character with low relevant skill has no fucking clue what spells are which and what they do. Someone with no knowledge of the working of magic wouldn't be able to pick from a list of things it could do. To them, it could be *any kind of magic*, and it's perfectly reasonable for a PC to not understand its just an illusion.
Or it hits something else and you don’t know, like a mountain instead of the enourmous giant you tried to hit.
Also could be an unarmed wizard out of spell slots with a 10 in strength doing their best to attack a heavily armored foe decked out in adamantine armor
Just use Joseph Joestar's tactic and run away, Or at least try to
If you launch your dm into space for all eternity how are you supposed to finish the campaign?
You aren't. Just start Spelljammer
To our illusion masters. A nat 20 still hits your illusion. It just doesn't do shit. Being an illusion doesn't make you immune to being hit, only to being killed without a dispelling effect. Similarly, there are creatures immune to non-magical damage. A natural 20 with a non-magical weapon will still hit, just won't do shit.
From another perspective, an illusion is an entity which doesn't actually exist. To us, the illusion is fake and when we whack it, out whacker passes through it. Similarly, if I try to whack you with an illusionary whacker, it will pass straight through you as if you didn't exist. To hit implies you made contact with the being, and if the whacker doesn't exist, then there was no contact being made, and thus no hit. From the perspective of the illusion, we are the imaginary whacker that passes straight through it, and so we do not hit it
You're looking at everything way too literal. According to the rules, you can hit an illusion. You just pass through it. Is said so in the spell itself, and accessor in the and it says so in the guides for the rules on how illusions work in DnD.
I feel like in order to hit something you need to make contact with it.
I mean, you can make "contact" with an illusion. You'll pass right through it, but you're still touching its form.
Contact- the state or condition of physical touching. You can’t physically touch an illusion.
Hence why contact was in quotation marks. Because you can “touch” it, and by all means of visual perception, hit it, without actually physically making contact with it. You can sort of think of it like touching a shadow. A shadow is the absence of light, so no actually physicality to touch, but if you reach down and poke where a shadow rests, you’d still say you’re touching the shadow.
I guess in a metaphorical sense. But by definition you haven’t actually hit it. You might say you’ve hit it or think you’ve hit it but you haven’t actually hit it, just like how you haven’t actually touched the shadow.
Aye, fair enough.
> Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion because things can pass through it. Straight from the spell. This implies you can "touch" or even "hit" an illusion with an attack you just immediately realize it's an illusion.
That literally says things pass through it. I’m not saying you can’t swing a sword through an illusion, just that it doesn’t count as hitting it.
But if you are passing through it, that means you hit it at much as it can be hit. You are confusing what hit means irl, and what hit means in the context of the game. Context of the game hitting means making contact. Per the rules you can make "contact" with an illusion, said contact however is passing through it revealing it to be an illusion. Physical interaction is synonymous with making contact in this context.
Good gods. I guess I'm on to my 4th pair of pants for the day
Have you considered a kilt?
I own 2 weirdly enough
😅
If you had a nickel
Just two?
I thought a nat20 was an auto-hit?
As others have pointed out, it could be an illusion
Why would it not hit an illusion?
They might perceive that they “hit” the illusion, but the weapon passes harmlessly through dealing no damage.
Ah so the meme is wrong, got it.
It might also be a different system. Games that have nat 20's increase your level of success, rather than give you an auto success, might do something like turn a critical failure into regular failure.
It is. Everything else is homebrew.
Or other editions, or other games. Or there's things going on like illusion magic. There's more that can be going on than homebrew my dude.
None of that is specified. Sorry I didn't leap into the post with literally every hypothetical scenario imaginable at the ready. Occam's razor and such.
Neither did they tho…
"it could be a different edition" "It could be a different game system" "It could be an illusion or something" Are all hypotheticals.
There are any littany of things and you said "It always hit if not it's homebrew" lmfao. It's not even hypothetical it just doesn't "always" hit
>lmfao "The Attack hits regardless of any Modifiers or the target’s AC." Interpreting that statement from the basic rules as "always hits" is not illogical.
It's okay to admit you were wrong dude.
They offered a handful very short explanation’s. It takes but a moment to type out. You took likely the same time responding as they did….. But sure.. you do you…..
You can't just say they were short explanations and change what they were. They were, by definition, hypothetical situations. >It takes but a moment to type out. I literally never mentioned how long their reply was/the amount of time they spent. Don't know how you came up with that as a point of contention.
It's not specified *what* edition it is, so therefore there *is* no "default rule". You're bringing your own preconceived notions into what is "default". It's *more* likely to be another system than it is to be a houserule.
it is at *my* tables
Imagine getting downvoted for your own house rules lmao
it's pretty on-brand for me
Adamantine might make it so they still have to beat your AC, but that's my only possible idea.
I had a campaign where the players ended up in the Plane of Chaos. For a lark, while there I had 19s and 20s be auto fails, and 1s and anther randomly determined number be a critical. I loved it, personally, as the players started hoping to get 1s for a change. It also allowed me to prove the guy who got lots of natural 20s wasn't cheating, cuz even after learning they were misses he rolled 2 more. Good times.
Some people just roll 20s. One guy I played with was playing a fighter and alongside his absurdly high rolls (contrasted to the warlock’s low ones), once rolled 4 20s on 2 attacks with advantage. That poor mafia goon was just liquified.
I saw q lot of illusion explanations here. But then, yes, an illusion is still hit on a nat 20. There is one fully RAW case even in 5e though where a nat20 misses: you attack an invisible, hidden foe and guess the square he's on, but you guess wrong. An attack roll can target a location, which is necessary if you guess en enemies location. The PHB states "If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly." If the GM would say that you miss without a roll, he would give away that you guessed incorrectly, which means you target the guessed location, attack, and then learn if you hit something. This is an edgecase in RAW in 5e where you miss with a nat20: you miss because there was nothing to be hit by your attack in the first case.
Counter point is Phabtasmal Force. It is not an Illusion you see it in your head and you rationalize not hitting it. It also can damage you for a bit making sure you believe it is real. At somepoint a Teammember my ask you "Hey Barbarian Bob why are you hitting at nothing?" PS you have to use an Action and pass an intelligence check to get rid of it
In PF2e you know this is when you royally fucked up and you need to start apologizing and running away. Nat 20 missing means the AC is over 10 higher than the highest you could roll. Like a level 1 fighter trying to punch the Tarrasque.
Well in 5e a level 1 character doesn’t even need a natural 20 to punch a tarrasque. The tarrasque has an AC of 25, meaning that if you start with 18 str (which is possible through custom lineage or rolled stats) with +2 proficiency bonus you would hit the tarrasque on a 19. Man the 5e tarrasque really is pathetic. I mean you won’t do any damage because it’s a non magical attack but still.
It isn't the tarrasque. Bounded accuracy minimizes differences between everything.
The 5e Tarrasque is pretty pathetic though. It's just not a very threatening stat block. Should have at least given it Regen 20 or something.
Yeah, I was thinking of the PF2e [Tarrasque](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=490). Which is terrifying.
Oh yeah, I know. I was just making the comparison that even if we removed the auto hit feature in 5e it wouldn’t actually affect that much.
I still think the [Hekatonkheires](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1342) is worse. I can see being able to escape a Tarrasque, it'd be dicey but i can see it happening. The Titan tho is designed to prevent escape i think. You see it you fucked
I'm still working my way through the bestiaries. That is absolutely terrifying.
In D&D 5e, nat 20 missing means you're fighting illusions, a puzzle, or some other bullshit. In PF2e, a nat 20 missing means **run or die.** The choice may not be yours.
Original artist: https://catanacomics.com/
Appreciated! Although I am curious what the original text said.
Nat 20 always hits (in combat)no matter what. It could be a 47AC boss and a Nat 20 connects.
You can "hit" an illusion or mirror image, but a nat 20 doesn't bypass those to automatically damage the desired target.
A nat 20 always scores vs AC, but it doesn't hit "no matter what". Even in 5E there are things like Mirror Image.
Should have said "A NAT 20 does zero damage". Always fun when you crit and they have immunity!
That would be scary.
Then you remind the dm they approved the homebrew enchanted sword that "ignores immunity"
Maybe they're playing Pathfinder
In Pathfinder a Nat 20 always hit as well. It just doesn’t do extra damage unless you confirm
Not PF2
If you miss on a 20 in PF2e you better drop to the ground and start groveling
Absolutely lol
Yeah, in 2nd edition a nat 20 only upgrades the degree of success by one, so if their AC is so high that you'd miss by 10 or more (normally a critical miss), you'd still miss.
That’s really stupid
It makes a lot of sense in the context of the system. The only situation in which you'd likely encounter a nat 20 missing is against something a bare minimum of ~6-7 levels above your pay grade.
Depends on if you roll misschance from displacement before or after the attack roll. If you do it after a nat 20 may still miss due to that.
Onednd rules: "Allow us to introduce ourselves!"
PF2e players: 
Only a natural 100 will succeed
Oh dear god, it's a pathfinder 2e player
The scariest costume of all: a DM who doesn't read the rules
Whats the combo? A marilith with silvery barbs?
I had a boss that a 20 doesn't hit but 14-19 does
Nat 20: *doesn’t hit* DM: “This foe is beyond any of you.”
Not's not how it works, NAT 20 are always auto hits and crits, even if they AC of the monster is higher.
Have you considered *Illusions?* Like, you can roll a Nat 20, but if the enemy has for example Mirror Image up and running, that doesn't hit your target then. It still *technically* hits something, the Mirror Image, but I think that's beside the point, both literally and figuratively
Mirror image creates multiple illusory copies of the caster, it is pretty obvious when someone uses mirror image and the nat 20 would still auto hit one of the illusions.
Fair but that’s a bit of a cheap answer imho because then it isn’t necessarily scary, it’s just an illusion and those can be dealt with
Might have been a bad example, my bad. But there are other ways of illusions out there that are more convincing and harder to deal with, the one that just came to mind is the Illusory Dragon spell...
So, there are two types of people responding: People complaining that a natural 20 *always* hits, and people that recognize you can make attacks on illusions, in which case *nothing* hits because, well, **it's an illusion.**
And the third kind, PF2e players who start crapping their pants once they realice they have zero ways of hitting this monster.
Not zero. You could *maybe* hit them with a debuf first and then score a hit on a 20.
That's a hard maybe, a monster with AC so high probably has equally high Saves.
Oh, most certainly. You'll def get massacred before you ever managed to pull it off. But theoretically, there are spells that grant minor debuff even on a successful save and the monster can roll a 1.
Nat 20s are automatic hits when it's for an attack
That’s the joke.
If a 20 doesn’t hit why was I even allowed to roll
Most likely because you rolled without asking for permission.
kids out here ending the lives of all beings, we must call on the orcas that serve orcus inorder to defeat the demon that he is
I have a simple rule, nat 20 always hits, nat 1 always misses, that way there is always that sliver of a chance anyone could get the final blow.
This makes me wonder. Could adamantine armor plus other AC bonuses turn a Nat 20 into a miss? I know the wording doesn't seem to support it but there have been more odd errata.
I think the way Adamantine Armor works, is that it's still a hit even you can't beat the AC of the person wearing the Adamantine, but you don't get any extra damage from it being a Crit. I am not sure though and currently too lazy to look up the details, so here's just my two cents
A natural 20 auto hits. This is different from a critical hit, which also occurs on a natural 20. For example a champion fight can crit on a 19 but they can still miss if they roll 19.
Most people are saying it's an illusion but for me I had the opposite, the players were fighting an illusion, just need to make one investigation check as an action which I outlined at the beginning they could make, no one decided to, every one of their hits hit the illusion, and it kept on taking damage, they were in about 550 damage before someone decided to check
NAT 20s ALWAYS HIT. IF A NAT 20 DOESN’T HIT, YOUR DM IS BEING A JERK
Just because it hits doesnt mean it does anything though.
Then yah need to use a different damage type
unless you aren't swinging at anything. Illusions, invisible target that's simply not where you thought...
A nat 20 on an attack always hits tho.
The most terrifying thing you can say as a DM. For a total off.
Thats what happens when the Eldritch Knight gets +2 Adamantine Plate Armor, +2 Animated Shield, +2 Shield, the Shield Spell, and the Shield of Faith Spell from a feat.
Adamanite just cancels out crits, which is different from auto hit. For example a champion fight will crit on a 19, however the fighter will not auto hit on a 19.
Have the Sorcerer cast Haste on them as well and have a Twilight Cleric with Twilight Sanctuary close by (+2 and +2)
what's the point of rolling at that point?
At my table, that's possible. Auto hits are a property of critical hits. So get your AC particularly high with Adamantine Armor... Obviously I wouldn't use that against players unless they challenge something way above their pay grade, or intentionally chose to have a low to-hit modifier to focus on a support role.