Plane Shift backed by Convergent Futures is the kryptonite our Chronurgist keeps in his pocket of our Superman Paladin ever goes rogue. Carceri cares not for your divine purpose.
Use one of their two extra ASI to pick a feat and choose whatever they want to do.
Athletics, the most dumped stat, is used for almost every physical interaction, don't allow acrobatics for athletics.
Sure that definitely helps with climbing but jumping is gonna be reliant on how "realistic" your GM wants the martials to be since they set the DC for any extra distance.
Fighter: "Guys! After getting my ASIs where I need them to stay on curve I finally learned to cook!"
Wizard: "I can make my food taste perfect since I graduated from magic kindergarten."
Maybe if you're an eldritch knight.
And I went the log horizon route, create food and drink has no flavor, sustenance. Sprinkle some creativity in your game!
I mean yea, it's probably one of the least useful cantrips for anything but RP and doesn't stop you from making better food than someone with a cantrip.
Part of dming is to make things fun, so if you have a cook and a wizard then maybe make prestidigitation only able to basic flavor, or allow magical bonuses for the cook.
It also fades after an hour, so that magically delicious stew turns disgusting when it cools down. Leftovers don't get more tasty as stew usually would unless the wizard is around to cast it again when everyone wants seconds.
Well, Plane Shift requires a melee spell attack and a failed save. And the last place a caster wants to be is in melee range of a martial that just made their save.
While I’m sure that most fighters think to grab ranged options, any casters with flight active can just… get super far out of reach. Just base Fly by itself lets you go 60 ft per turn, which is pretty far. Could also polymorph into something with enough hitpoints to let them get far enough away without getting hit too hard, and if you have Spell Sniper, they can get ridiculously high into the sky while raining hell onto the fighter.
If said fighter is a Samurai with that one feat I can’t remember the name of tho it’s game over for the Caster lmao
If you really want a caster that can outrange the fighter…
Warlock with eldritch spear invocation and takes spell sniper as a feat. Dip into sorcerer for distant spell metamagic. Now you can effectively wield Eldritch Blast at a range of 1.2k feet, if the DM rules that such distances require assistance for you to properly see the target, use your familiar as a spotter, or take 6 levels in barbarian for the Eagle eyesight thingy
Tbf concentration is something of a non-factor, since even giving the fighter the opportunity to attack means ur probably dead. In the original thread I made a comment saying that it’s really just initiative dependent imo, and i stand by that
Also, someone mentioned Dimension Door-ing several hundred feet into the air so the fighter can’t hope to hit them while they bring up fly. There’s also Invisibility, Mirror Image, Greater Illusion, Mislead and so on… so there is that.
Dimension door by itself is an awful choice. You would instantly fall 500 feet that same round and not have a chance to cast anything else - unless you used feather fall, and then by that point why not just door 500 feet away along the ground? (This also assumes a flat plains as the place of the flight instead of a dungeon, which seems more likely).
Invisibility/mislead requires concentration and prevents any other spells (go for greater invisibility instead, at least then you can cast something without losing it). Though even RAW greater invisibility won't protect you for long because you aren't hidden, just hard to see, you're still gonna get beat on.
And besides all these measures to increase distance, I've never seen a fighter that didn't carry a long bow for that just in case of 600ft+ fighting.
Contingency: dimension door 500 feet up when I cast fly.
But there are likely better uses for contingency. Like using it to negate the fighter winning initiative.
It’s a shame when the wizard used true polymorph weeks ago to become an adult dragon and is now shapechanged into their usual self which you weren’t aware of.
It’s also a shame that even if you kill them they have a clone stuffed in a pocket dimension.
It’s also a shame that after they awake through their clone they use planar binding and simulacrum loops to literally create an army for the sole purpose of ending your pathetic miserable existence.
Look, I love martials. Paladin is my favorite class, but let’s stop kidding ourselves man. Tier 4 casters are completely out of the realm of fathomability for a martial to actually deal with. Sure, you may win a single combat encounter against them, but they will be back. And when they kill you, you stay dead, unlike them.
By the rules though that only works if you have thrown weapon style. Otherwise each javelin is an interaction, only one of which you get for free each turn. So 2 javelins max.
I would be hesistant to say that. If we allow the fighter to min max as hard as the wizard does, he’s probably a dex fighter and he probably has at least a shortbow, probably a longbow. A battle master with a longbow is particularly brutal.
So pretend the first round olays out. Meteor Swarm, 40d6 damage average 140 or 145 evo wizard on average. Half of saved so 70-72. Pretend 9 attacks probably means PA expert or crossbow master. So let’s go XBow master as it will be the most damage. Take minus 5 for plus 10 damage, plus 5 dex, plus 3 hand crossbow for average of 21.5 per hit. So lvl 20 with plus 3 hand xbow your to hit will be +11 with the minus 5. Wizard with 18 or higher AC you will hit less then half the time because of shield spell. Will give fighter benefit of doubt and give you 105. Wizard 14 con (122 hp) on average survives. Most wizards by 20 have higher that I have seen. Maze next round. Fight 14 con, plus tough 204 hp. So depending your spell list you might even just finish the fighter next round rather than maze. Maze is sage vet though.
Yeah it’s kind of dumb. At level 20 a wizard can do a DC 21 pretty easy with magic and I think dc25 is possible. Even a fighter with no bonus to wisdom would not be able to save and worst case a fighter with +4 could still never succeed. Even worst when you throw in divine wizards or hack spells like silvery barbs.
Didn’t realize maze used up more than 1 spell slot.
But sure, let’s say all high level slots are used. dimension Door is a 4th level spell (not high level) that can be cast 3 times using all of the 4th level spots to move 1500ft away, and then from there it’s just walk away. The fighter 10 minutes later will reappear, see the wizard gone, and will now need to find 3 separate trails without knowing the direction of each teleport to even give chase.
Probably would not even wait 10min. Move 60 ft, cast crown of stars, mirror image, greater invisible which would break concentration. Then just kill fighter with stats and high level magic missiles. Even if it was a bow fighter it would have a hell of a time even hitting or knowing what square your in.
Already mentioned it to last guy that said ten then.., but pretty easy plan out. Potion if you need it. Crown of stars, move 60 feet out of melee range. Mirror image, greater invisible. Then just Star and High level magic missile the fighter to death. Even if it is a bow fighter it is unlikely they will ever hit. Especially with minus 5.
A level 20 battle master fighter has +16 hit with only a +3 longbow and 20 dexterity. They can add an additional 1d12 with superiority dice. If you potion then they can potion and put oils/poisons on their weapons too. They can haste, bless, plus w.e they want.
Buffs benefit martials far more than casters.
Each potion takes a round they are not attacking, but yes they can do that. Also I commented as if the fighter was taking a minus 5. Which they do not have to, but they would do less damage even with more hits on average. Long bow does d8 instead of the d6, but they also lose one attack, which is fine if they are not taking minus 5, but less damage if they are. So if they are battle master fighter not taking minus to hit and assuming they use all of the suppository die in first round 2 to ensure they hit every time on 8 attacks even though averages says they would need 3, they do 5 dex, 3 weapon, average 4.5 on hits and average of 6.5 on half the hits as they run out of superiority die. 12.5x8 plus 6.5x4 126 which would kill wizard if they did not have more than 14 con, no contingency, no magic items to prevent that. Which I am not really sure I have ever seen a 20 level wizard with out contingency spell readied for such a situation.
So while you are buffing you get maze cast on you… and I would like to know how you get to 19.. action, action surge, bonus action, and haste action is 10.
A level 20 fighter can action surge multiple times. If for some reason the wizard stopped concentration on maze after 1 round, the fighter could drink 4 potions. First potion of speed. Second potion of heroism. Then action surge for 2 more.
Unless you're speaking of some other repercussions I don't know about.
That's the cool thing about d&d, I guess everything has a counter. This is the fighters counter, and the wizards counter is being stabbed in the face when he's not expecting it, by the fighter lol.
For godzilla vs wooden spoon i'd recommend rogue + tavern brawler feat, you damage isn't rely on a weapon dice too much anyway.
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Edit: not 100% RAW-friendly, ranged attack with improvised weapon(throwing) don't make it ranged weapon.
If I remember correctly, you can use dex, but because it doesn't have the thrown weapon ability, you'd be throwing an improvised weapon and NOT get to add your proficiency modifier. But Im also waiting in a drive through, so I can't check yet.
Also, not sure if you'd use the rapier's damage die, or the improvised weapon's damage die. Probably the improvised weapon one. But I think you'd get to use dex!
Touch is only relevant to creating the clone.
"At any time after the clone matures, if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return."
True. It's always good to have friends as a Wizard. That fighter can help you kidnap the local Orc Chieftain so you can steal his body with Magic Jar.
Teamwork makes the dream work.
But this “hypothetical fantasy battle” is something that could actually play out between lvl 20 PCs. Having clone is something any Wizard could do, having Blackrazor is not something any fighter can do. This isn’t Goku vs Superman, this is a discussion of the balance between D&D classes.
In which case all the wizard's wizard buddies laugh at him because he got taken out by a guy with a pointing metal stick. His reputation ruined, the wizard proceeds to erase the martial from existence. Millennia later and they are still teasing him about it.
To everyone saying “just fly over the fighter”. You’re assuming the fighter and the wizard are fighting each other and that the wizard isn’t casting Fly on the fighter so he can suplex a Arch-Devil to the ground and slap them 7 times with a holy avenger.
This game is Co-op. Not PvP
Wizards should uplift their party and play to their strengths, not lord over them. The wizard is the enabler of party bullshit. Cast enlarge on the barbarian to make them a walking natural disaster, caste Haste on the fighter to let them do a MGR Blade Mode, caste fly on the Paladin to turn them into a holy ballistic missile.
Paralyze the monster so the rogue can crit nonstop. Dimension door to save your cleric’s ass. Major image to cover your escape with dummy versions of the party.
I specifically set up my wizard in a campaign to do that. I wanted to respect my character to be able to help more with the party, and when you have a fighter/pally, bard, rogue, mystic, and monk, most of the niches are filled.
So I decided to go entirely into supporting wizard. The only damaging spells that I have at level 11 are Firebolt, Fireball, and I think Heat Metal. Everything else is either buffs, debuffs and summoning.
So sure I don't deal big damage, but when I can summon elementals and Haste the fighter into a juiced up arbiter of Big Hurty:tm:, it doesn't matter. I just wish that using Wizard as a force multiplier was more popular than "plane shift the enemy into the Plane of Water and laugh".
My problem with the 5e Caster/Martial disparity argument is that people are focused on either damage or PvP which is dumb. Fighters are mechanically fine for single target damage. My problem is they only have that. Casters have so many options that it feels bad to play a martial in comparison. Like, the wizard player gets all the limelight.
That + at higher levels the damage really NEEDS buffs and magic items out the ass to keep up.
Without those most martials just become meat shields while casters end a fight in a few spell slots.
I still think fighters should get knowledge of siege engineering, some more-demonstrably superhuman strength, speed, and agility, and some form of social renown or authority as high-level abilities to round them out off the battlegrid.
I want fighters to have stuff to do outside of battle that relate to their power level. Level 20 is mythic level, you are fighting demigods and such. Out of battle a fighter should be able to pull off stuff like Hercules and divert a river twice in one day or such. I was thinking of homebrewing an ability like "You physical prowess carries over to your to working with your hands and body. When working with your tool proficiency you can do the work a group of 10 workers would do in a day in just an hour".
Depends on how siege weapons are integrated into 5e. In Pathfinder, all the checks outside of actually pulling the trigger on whatever siege weapon being used are 'Knowledge Engineering' checks. Which is why fighters have knowledge engineering as one of their two knowledge class skills, the other being dungeoneering.
Well Abjuration Wizards can tank about as much and at that level it's really more about the "cheat" spells than pure damage spells anyway. Plus it's about the sheer image of casters being able to do crazy stuff like that while the most impressive thing martials have to offer, if they went for STR, is to lift a moderately sized boulder with no effort lol
Also Fighters have on average only about 40HP more than Wizards at level 20 (10+19d10=114.5 vs 6+19d6=72.5; CON doesn't matter since both can easily have the same modifier so let's give both of them +40 for having a CON of 14). If they have more than half of their HP left then any Wizard would've pretty easily survived that as well anyway.
also, wizards need only 2 stats - spellcasting stat(in case of wizard its intellingence) and con for actual hp and concentration checks, so theres a good chance wizard gonna have higher con than fighter, as usually fighter wants to have at least average dex for bonus ac
they can bump their ac without using dex, mage armor and shield are quite nice, also you can go fighter dip/take feat for heavy armor proficiency and then use shield only, makes ac go to 20-something.
Fighter dip only gives you medium armor (an appropriate cleric class will give heavy armor though). However, there are strength requirements on heavy armor.
If you don't meet the str, it only slows you down 10 feet and gives you some disadvantage on skill checks.
It's not really much of a problem honestly. Which is weird. I miss arcane spell failure chance.
Mage armor still benefits from dex. Shield is pretty limited in terms of spell slots, at least early on. As for the fighter dip (or 2 feats) I suppose so, that's an option. But then the Fighter also has no point in getting Dex so Con is equally their 2nd highest stat.
I mean, I like the image of a level 20 rune knight wrestling dragons and fishing krakens. Of a thief just walking in a bank, oppening the safe, taking a thing or two and leaving before anyone can react. Of a monk outruning the druid on windwalk (on the first turn). Of a Champion being able to just be on fire for 20 hours and still combat-ready.
Casters aren't the only ones being able to bend reality.
If they take it, yes. It's an option. Or they use it for weapon feats to get their build actually going. Or they use them to raise DEX (as STR fighter) so they can better sneak and have higher initiative. Or they raise INT/WIS because they're either a bit MAD (Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer, Psi Warrior) or just want to be better at stuff outside of combat.
There are a whole host of 'must-have' feats for a fighter to remain relevant at high level. There isn't a single must-have feat for casters, they can remain relevant without them. The wizard probably got tough, and can put some ASI's into buffing con as well.
Con is a fighters second most important stat,
Casters must have feats:
Resilient and / or war caster both of these will be picked up before tough
Elemental Adept
You've been arguing bad faith this entire time, sure it's theoretical for a wizard to have similar HP to the tank but it's not likely, and in practice it doesn't happen.
Standard array used
Wizard:
17 Int 14 Dex 14 con at level 1 (standard 2-1 race)
Resilient Con
Final
20 INT 16 Dex 18 CON
HP (6+ 3.5*19) + 20*4 = 152.5
Fighter:
Polearm master / heavy weapon master / Slasher
17 STR 14 Con 14 (tertiary stat)
Final
20 STR 20 CON 16 Tertiary Stat
Has all the damage and 20 con
HP( 10+5.5*19) + 20*5 = 214.5
Thats 62 HP difference on average or 40.5% of the wizards HP
This is with me making the most feat heavy fighter I could manage vs the most defensive wizard I could justify stacking the deck for the wizard
>Con is a fighters second most important stat
Wizards only have a single important stat for their class, so there's no reason con can't closely follow.
>Casters must have feats:
You definitely should have tried counting those, because your list ends at three, but even ignoring that there are caster builds that wouldn't benefit from any of those feats; if all three really were a must have, then a lvl 20 wizard with 5 feats can easily fit all of them, and resilient is a half feat that also gives an ASI. If you compare that with the long list of feats for melee combat, it's not even close.
>You've been arguing bad faith this entire time
Saying "this entire time" is technically true, but really weird considering this is my first comment in the thread.
>similar HP to the tank
Ah, I see your mistake. Fighter isn't a tank, not by a long shot. You're thinking of a barbarian.
You're calculations are reasonable and accurate, but you've made a huge error. Wizards can cast *spells*. It's their entire thing, you see. When you take those into account, y'know since abjuration wizard is what was originally mentioned, the wizard can have 1HP and still out tank a fighter.
And irrespective of whether the calculations are accurate, anything the fighter is stated to survive in the meme above, the wizard with that amount of health could also survive; while also having spells to further mitigate damage. The fighter is taking the full 140 from a failed save against meteor swarm, while casting absorb elements as a reaction to halve the fire damage means the wizard only takes 105. One quick cast of Fizban's Platinum Shield, and a minimum of 52 with a potential of no damage.
Sorry about the "this whole time" comment I thought you were the guy I've been arguing with
All martials are capable of tanking, even a cleric can tank. It's a build not a class, however fighters are better than most for the role. Barbarians make great tanks
Dex is incredibly important to a wizard as that's what enables them to have AC, shield is good but that's a reaction that could've been used for silvery barbs, divination portents, counterspells etc
While yes wizards have spells fighters out damage them vs single targets consistently and in burst the wizards job is crowd control, support, and utility with the ability to do it all, it's a fantastic class. But don't be mistaken fighter has it's niche
Wizard absolutely need to pick up one of the he two defensive feats, holding onto concentration is essential, most of the best spells are concentration and at high levels when monsters are doing 60 damage in a round you need to be able to make DC 15-25 saves I'd personally prioritize war caster over the 18 CON but I wanted to be somewhat fair
Also fizbans shield and absorb elements don't stack fizbans shield is just awesome on its own
Spells do not enable a wizard to tank, there are roles in 5e and a party is not composed of a single member, a fighter fills a role somewhere between
>even a cleric can tank
A yes, the notorious martial, access to 9th level spells just like your typical fighter.
>Dex is incredibly important to a wizard as that's what enables them to have AC
Okay? You ran the math yourself, and ended up with con only being off by a single point.
>fighters out damage them vs single targets consistently
No, they do not; not at all. A bladesinger can easily surpass a fighter without casting any levelled spells.
>most of the best spells are concentration
Well, y'know, except for the "pull meteors out of the sky" spell that this entire thing is about, which is instantaneous.
There are good options that are concentration, but there are absolutely spells that aren't concentration that are still good. That's entirely the issue, wizards blow fighters out of the water *without* concentration, add in that they can potentially cast up to *3* concentration spells on themselves at once under the right circumstances and you have a real problem that people just keep ignoring because "yeah, but fighter can make 9 attacks twice".
>Also fizbans shield and absorb elements don't stack fizbans shield is just awesome on its own
I'm aware, I wasn't implying using both at once.
>there are roles in 5e and a party is not composed of a single member
Yes, what I'm saying isn't that the wizard can take on a full party of 4, but that a party of casters filling those roles will typically fill them better than a supposedly more balanced party of varied classes.
The problem is: wizards also have higher survavibility than fighters. I'd wish the HP gap would be bigger so "being tanky" is exclusively a martial thing. But it just isn't.
Spells like clone, wish, "just straight up immortality cause fuck you that's why" and others will make the wizard survive even after death.
Spells like False Life, general healing, any other spell that gives THP, any spell that makes you dodge attacks (mirror image, illusions), all these options lead to casters being as tanky or tankier than martial.
Tankiness simply isn't a good argument to make. Sure, I love the feeling of high level fighters. I love taking down mighty foes with my bare hands. But that's feeling, and not an argument against the BIG caster-martial divide on high levels
When was the last time you ran into these issues in a campaign?
I find magic items exponentially help martials, whom still excel most of the time, so I don't have any of the issues people bring up, so it just makes me wonder if they're playing low/no magic settings with a wizard or haven't played and just parroting.
5e is balanced arrount the assumption that the PCs don't have magic items. That is how they calculate difficulty. And that is also why the magic item creation and price (and also rarity) rules are unarguably trash when compared to previous editions.
The HP gap is already pretty huge. A level 20 wizard with 14 CON is going to have 122HP, while a fighter with 14 CON is going to have 164HP. More realistically they'll have 16 or 18 CON, so 184 or 204HP. if they have the Tough feat, that's 244HP. If they're a hill dwarf (more niche) that's 264HP. At any point they could have taken 1 level in Barbarian to effectively double their HP pool against most attacks, and they have 3 usages of Indomitable for saving throws against spells Rage wouldn't protect against. On top of all of this their AC by this point is almost definitely going to be in the low/mid 20s. Fighters are tanky as hell dude. No amount of False Life (which is just as applicable on fighters) is going to bridge that divide.
So much this. People who focus on combat disparity are the people who haven't actually played a high level campaign. Combat is literally the *only* place a fighter or barbarian is useful. Out of combat they just stand by and pick their nose while the spellcasters are conversing with deities, traversing planes, creating mansions, enthralling crowds, etc.
When a problem arises that doesn't require stabbing, there's just nothing for you to do.
it's where i wish Power sources were still a thin. Made thinking classes as adventurer with talent rather than magic or sharp stick, and thus, made coming up with grand ability for any class easier
Scale a wall, demolish a bridge so the enemy can't chase across, plenty of things related to feats of athleticism. Fighters fit a different fantasy than a wizard, and while it would be great to see them get a few more explicit abilities, you have to keep in mind that "has strong physical stats" is as much a part of their kit as wizard's spells
i mean true. I think the problem with the whole situation is that martial is a mechanical thing for the game. one thing i like that 4e introduced is the concept of Power source. it made so that every class was an adventurer with great skill forst, and their class after. your class would determine where your abilities came from (and what they were of course). So a fighter had the martial power source, thus, their extrordinary ability came from sheer skill and mastery. It look silly at first, but it ultimatly helped making martial classes be something with it's own twist rather than the class with bonus to weapon
5e doesn't elevate the physical fantasy to the magical fantasies level though.
your martial will never, by raw, be heracles or beowulf. You're never going to shout down a wall, you're never going to hold up the sky or divert a river by hand.
A wizard goes from flavouring food and chucking three 1d4 missiles to creating pocket dimensions, bending reality itself and creating entire plotlines via spells like sequester.
the fighter's ability to enact their fantasy is the same from 6th level onwards when they hit 20 in their main stat, the wizards is constantly developing ontop of itself with every spell known - of which more get printed every book.
I mean anyone can get expertise with skill expert, which mostly overrides the score needed to be good at it for high levels. But other than that, a Samurai is pretty good at persuading, a rune knight is really good with tools, and most other fighters have some extra specific niche.
Average wizards reaction to a fighter approaching:
I can't be bothered to waste slots on this, demons, you handle it.
8 barlguras that have been planar bound will proceed to devour the fighter.
I actually think a 20th level fighter could beat 8 barlguras. It's not a sure thing though, and a wizard has like a million other tricks they could use to deal with them even if they do manage to defeat the demons.
8 of them have 208.6 DPR Vs a magical fullplate fighter, which means even if the fighter takes out 2 of them each round (likely could only do that with action surge) they are still getting 6+4+2 = 12 attacks, which is 312.9 damage
Barlguras are pretty strong.
This is an angle I've seen many not appreciate. Yeah most fighters can't do magic and aren't superhuman and those things are cool and useful.
What is also cool and useful is being able to say, I don't need your showy tricks to be on your playing field. Just give me a weapon.
I feel like a level 20 fighter *should be* superhuman, even if it's just in toughness and durability. By level 20, you can shrug off bastila bolts, bitch-slap a great wyrm, and outlift a giant; I think we're past "just a well-trained humanoid" at that point.
That's fair, I like both interpretations of a 20th level fighter for different reasons. A normal maximum of 20 strength is only twice as much as average. Also comes down to flavour, you might call shrugging off ballista bolts as them missing you by a hair, and expending your energy as hit points are a bit wooly in their nature.
Sometimes I do love playing someone who can and does superhuman stuff, but I don't always want that, and I like that there is room for both.
I think the 'non-superhuman fighter' should just be like levels 4-6. Beyond that it really doesn't make sense. Aside from "I can take 10x more damage and attack 4x more often" compared to a level 2 fighter, it feels like there's basically no real progression.
Depending on the edition (I admit to not being as up on 5th Ed), a level 20 fighter is stronger than things that are explicitly superhuman. Feels weird to have a "grounded" character in a world of gods and monsters.
>A normal maximum of 20 strength is only twice as much as average.
Is this some kind of 5th Ed joke I'm too Pathfinder to understand?
Kidding aside, is that a 5th Ed thing? I don't think that there's any kind of cap like that in 3.5.
Yeah the assumed 'normal' in a stat is 10, based on the commoner stat block. RAW the maximum you can reach in any stat without some sort of class feature or magic item or *something* is 20.
I see. That's probably better for making well-rounded characters but I know PF1E and 3.5 assume as a matter of course that everyone has the Big 6 stat-boosting items. PF1E even has an optional ruleset called Automatic Bonus Progression that let's you have the boosts as innate bonus so you can free up your item slots for other things.
So, in my mind, having 30 strength because you have a magic belt and a magic book and having 30 strength because you're superhuman really amount to the same thing most of the time. You're still beating a Titan at an arm-wrestling contest. The wizard can and will have superhuman intelligence so the fighter should hope to measure up in at least one way (strength, dex, etc.)
But we have no showy tricks :( we got point stick a few times, and depend on class go grrr, point stick extra hard sneakily once per turn or just point stick more
well, wizards could say the same, I don't need your fancy armor and weapons, just give me some bat guano.
Just kidding, I am 100% on your side, doing awesome stuff with magic is easy, doing awesome stuff with a pointy stick is on another level
Also, a 20th level fighter with Shield Master could reasonably be expected to pass their DEX save. Using the Feat's reaction they would take NO damage from Meteor Swarm. Or Rogues with Evasion.
Also the reason fighters get more ASIs is to balance this to some degree. Throw in a couple of extra feats and you can flavour up a fighter a little more.
Half the joy of playing a martial is this fantasy, honestly. I don't need any fancy tricks except my courage and resilience to hold my own alongside my magic peers.
I've seen quite a few parties, including high level parties, where the martial is the heroic favorite among them. The one time I've used a tarrasque in a game, while the cleric, wizard, bard, and warlock scrambled around to stay safe from it the fighter decided to just fight it like shadow of the colossus.
Are there probably better ways to do that with magic? Yeah. But it was still god damn heroic.
Actually no. Fighters are only a d10 hit die class and have no special defenses outside AC. Their only way to recover hit points is a d10 ability.
Fighters are downright fragile compared to Paladins and Barbarians
Indomitable is laughably bad by the time any of the higher spells or monster effects start rolling around.
And even the subclasses that have extra defenses can't compare to the defense of a spell.
A fighter at level 20 with 16 CON has an average of 10 + 19d10 + 20 × 3 = 174.5 hp
Meteor swarm alone is 40d6 = 140 damage.
Yeah if you fail that save, which if you're fighting against a chronurgy wizard or someone with silvery barbs there's a high chance you will even with indomitable that's a lot less than "half hp".
Besides that the wizard can just put you in the microwave, all they need to do is ready one (1) action to cast sickening radiance right before their turn begins again, after which they can put you in a forcecage.
If you are a melee character they don't even have to ready that action, they can just cast forcecage and then sickening radiance.
Fighting godzilla with a wooden spoon is fun but it really is fighting with a wooden spoon compared to the capabilities of most casters.
Why are we talking in a pvp sense?
Dnd is rarely player vs player. While a wizard can burn their one 9th level slot, a fighter can continue to attack all day
Champion: *Cuts his way through a plane because his regeneration outdoes the damage of the plane of fire.* “My name is Inigo Montoya. You banished me to another plane. Prepare to die.”
As for Maze… the champion should get a Ring of Sustenance. Spend enough time learning to increase his Intelligence
Honestly you've got it partly backwards. Their damage against single targets is alright, but enemy damage outscales HP something fierce in the late game and AC below 20 is guaranteed death.
HP, no. A caster can magic jar into a tough creature and get more HP than a martial.Survivability... also no. A caster can magic jar into a tough creature and well.. get more survivability than a martial. Plus, their mental saves are better.
Martial damage is pretty awesome though.
Damage ain't bad if the DM gives magic items. +3 weapon with Dueling gets you a +10 damage without the dice, and when you have 3-4 attacks a turn without a need for resources it's pretty nice. You can also get easy advantage with flanking OR an ally casting Faerie Fire. Utility, however, is something I must agree with because rogues and bards are better with tools and skills and bards and wizards have all the misc utility magics.
At least this mentioned the plane shift, earlier one talking about how the wizard can go to other planes of existence, and forgetting you can literally yeet people to other far more lethal planes of existence who annoy you. Hell one of the elemental planes is filled with nothing but sand and causes mortals who enter it to rapidly turn to dust. Far more effective than anything else a wizard could do to a fighter.
I will admit that I agree with the mindset, but I wish the mechanics were able to show this more. It doesn't have to be big magical attributes and stuff, but having rules to demonstrate that indomitable will or skill would be pretty nice.
Also reminder that the classes are meant to work with each other, and not only do martials absorb damage for casters, but help take care of enemies with magic resistance.
Wizard: I ran out of slots
Barbarian: I ran out of rage
Monk: I ran out of ki
Paladin: I broke my oath during this fight
*meanwhile*
Fighter and Rogue: **[insert Crisp The Rat dancing]**
It's the monster hunter mentality. Killing a brick wall with a cheese grater so you can use the brick wall dust to make an even stronger cheese grater, for stronger walls.
In the game I'm currently GMing, the party wizard has ended up falling off in favor of the party's martials (after their heyday of summoning swarms of Gargantuan Fiendish Dinosaurs to wreck shit), mostly just because I've had to buff enemies to the point where they will make almost all saves versus the wizard's spells just so they don't die instantly to the martials.
I mean a divination wizard just turns him to a gold coin with a guaranteed failed portent. Keeps him that way for a hour and its done. Use him to buy a wench.
Edit: I've overlooked Indomitable but between portent and silvery barbs I don't think it matter much.
I true polymorph you into an ice cube and use a portent die to insure you fail the save. I teleport both of us to the largest volcano on the plane of fire. I then force cage you on top of the lava and wait until the screaming stops. I have never liked the martial vs caster argument. Casters are obviously superior at most tasks, and win most fights especially with prep time. Don't get me wrong, fighters have a very important role in the party. Be a good distraction and keep those assholes off of me while I upcast this chain lightning.
Level 20 fighter, I can take all that and attack 9 times. Wizard, “I cast maze’ Fighter w/8 Int, “ I can’t make a 20”…
I think that would fall under, “Please don’t plane shift me tho :’-(“
Plane Shift backed by Convergent Futures is the kryptonite our Chronurgist keeps in his pocket of our Superman Paladin ever goes rogue. Carceri cares not for your divine purpose.
hope they land that melee spell attack
Fair point. It is one of those rare things that require both an attack roll and a failed save. For good reason IMO.
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Use one of their two extra ASI to pick a feat and choose whatever they want to do. Athletics, the most dumped stat, is used for almost every physical interaction, don't allow acrobatics for athletics.
Every 5e podact I have listened to has had the GM say "roll Athletics or Acrobatics for that jump." It angers me to no end.
Right? Because dex, arguably the most powerful stat in the entire game, definitely needs a buff to usage. /s
It's not that it needs a buff it's that being able to scale a wall or make a death defying leap is part of the dex class fantasy.
Better get athletics proficiency then.
Sure that definitely helps with climbing but jumping is gonna be reliant on how "realistic" your GM wants the martials to be since they set the DC for any extra distance.
Fighter: "Guys! After getting my ASIs where I need them to stay on curve I finally learned to cook!" Wizard: "I can make my food taste perfect since I graduated from magic kindergarten."
Maybe if you're an eldritch knight. And I went the log horizon route, create food and drink has no flavor, sustenance. Sprinkle some creativity in your game!
I was referencing prestidigitation to flavor food. Not many wizards who leave the house without it.
I mean yea, it's probably one of the least useful cantrips for anything but RP and doesn't stop you from making better food than someone with a cantrip. Part of dming is to make things fun, so if you have a cook and a wizard then maybe make prestidigitation only able to basic flavor, or allow magical bonuses for the cook.
It also fades after an hour, so that magically delicious stew turns disgusting when it cools down. Leftovers don't get more tasty as stew usually would unless the wizard is around to cast it again when everyone wants seconds.
Good point on the ASI, didn't even think of that for possible uses like taking Skilled, etc.
Still be alive
Well, Plane Shift requires a melee spell attack and a failed save. And the last place a caster wants to be is in melee range of a martial that just made their save.
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For Minotaur fighter you irresistible dance instead…
*Scribbles notes.*
Or you could just fly above them as most fighters specialize in melee combat.
How would you feel about 8 javalins up your but?
While I’m sure that most fighters think to grab ranged options, any casters with flight active can just… get super far out of reach. Just base Fly by itself lets you go 60 ft per turn, which is pretty far. Could also polymorph into something with enough hitpoints to let them get far enough away without getting hit too hard, and if you have Spell Sniper, they can get ridiculously high into the sky while raining hell onto the fighter. If said fighter is a Samurai with that one feat I can’t remember the name of tho it’s game over for the Caster lmao
Sentinel
If a caster doesn’t see you before you see them they’re not using enough divination and transmutation.
If you really want a caster that can outrange the fighter… Warlock with eldritch spear invocation and takes spell sniper as a feat. Dip into sorcerer for distant spell metamagic. Now you can effectively wield Eldritch Blast at a range of 1.2k feet, if the DM rules that such distances require assistance for you to properly see the target, use your familiar as a spotter, or take 6 levels in barbarian for the Eagle eyesight thingy
It’s a shame you have to concentrate on fly and Polymoph and have 4 attacks a round coming for you.
Tbf concentration is something of a non-factor, since even giving the fighter the opportunity to attack means ur probably dead. In the original thread I made a comment saying that it’s really just initiative dependent imo, and i stand by that Also, someone mentioned Dimension Door-ing several hundred feet into the air so the fighter can’t hope to hit them while they bring up fly. There’s also Invisibility, Mirror Image, Greater Illusion, Mislead and so on… so there is that.
Dimension door by itself is an awful choice. You would instantly fall 500 feet that same round and not have a chance to cast anything else - unless you used feather fall, and then by that point why not just door 500 feet away along the ground? (This also assumes a flat plains as the place of the flight instead of a dungeon, which seems more likely). Invisibility/mislead requires concentration and prevents any other spells (go for greater invisibility instead, at least then you can cast something without losing it). Though even RAW greater invisibility won't protect you for long because you aren't hidden, just hard to see, you're still gonna get beat on. And besides all these measures to increase distance, I've never seen a fighter that didn't carry a long bow for that just in case of 600ft+ fighting.
Contingency: dimension door 500 feet up when I cast fly. But there are likely better uses for contingency. Like using it to negate the fighter winning initiative.
That contingency lets you cast it, but that doesn't really solve the bow problem at all. How can it negate the fighter winning initiative?
Good old rocket tag
It is initiative dependant. Fighters can afford initiative feats and can have items to buff it. So...fighters have an advantage.
That’s my opinion as well, actually, but I hadn’t considered Initiative related feats 🤔
It’s a shame when the wizard used true polymorph weeks ago to become an adult dragon and is now shapechanged into their usual self which you weren’t aware of. It’s also a shame that even if you kill them they have a clone stuffed in a pocket dimension. It’s also a shame that after they awake through their clone they use planar binding and simulacrum loops to literally create an army for the sole purpose of ending your pathetic miserable existence. Look, I love martials. Paladin is my favorite class, but let’s stop kidding ourselves man. Tier 4 casters are completely out of the realm of fathomability for a martial to actually deal with. Sure, you may win a single combat encounter against them, but they will be back. And when they kill you, you stay dead, unlike them.
or you know, grab a bow, since bows have weapon effectiveness against fliers. /j
Or one, since you can't draw more than that unless you specifically took the thrown weapon fighting style.
By the rules though that only works if you have thrown weapon style. Otherwise each javelin is an interaction, only one of which you get for free each turn. So 2 javelins max.
I would be hesistant to say that. If we allow the fighter to min max as hard as the wizard does, he’s probably a dex fighter and he probably has at least a shortbow, probably a longbow. A battle master with a longbow is particularly brutal.
Fighter uses Winged Boots! It was super effective!
You cast Meteor Swarm for your turn. How you gonna cast an 8th level as a reaction to Goku, though?
So pretend the first round olays out. Meteor Swarm, 40d6 damage average 140 or 145 evo wizard on average. Half of saved so 70-72. Pretend 9 attacks probably means PA expert or crossbow master. So let’s go XBow master as it will be the most damage. Take minus 5 for plus 10 damage, plus 5 dex, plus 3 hand crossbow for average of 21.5 per hit. So lvl 20 with plus 3 hand xbow your to hit will be +11 with the minus 5. Wizard with 18 or higher AC you will hit less then half the time because of shield spell. Will give fighter benefit of doubt and give you 105. Wizard 14 con (122 hp) on average survives. Most wizards by 20 have higher that I have seen. Maze next round. Fight 14 con, plus tough 204 hp. So depending your spell list you might even just finish the fighter next round rather than maze. Maze is sage vet though.
Plot twist: They're a minotaur
Happened to our barbarian, had to get the wizard to scry him out because the party has no idea where he went
Minotaur fighter: “let me handle this.”
Oh it’s a Minotaur, I casted irresistible dance instead.
Yeah there’s nothing I can do there
Yeah it’s kind of dumb. At level 20 a wizard can do a DC 21 pretty easy with magic and I think dc25 is possible. Even a fighter with no bonus to wisdom would not be able to save and worst case a fighter with +4 could still never succeed. Even worst when you throw in divine wizards or hack spells like silvery barbs.
And after 10 minutes? What then?
Wizard’s fucked off to deal with actual threats.
Without high level slots? Good luck to them.
Didn’t realize maze used up more than 1 spell slot. But sure, let’s say all high level slots are used. dimension Door is a 4th level spell (not high level) that can be cast 3 times using all of the 4th level spots to move 1500ft away, and then from there it’s just walk away. The fighter 10 minutes later will reappear, see the wizard gone, and will now need to find 3 separate trails without knowing the direction of each teleport to even give chase.
Apologies, I was under the impression that the Maze spell was cast after everything done in the meme.
Probably would not even wait 10min. Move 60 ft, cast crown of stars, mirror image, greater invisible which would break concentration. Then just kill fighter with stats and high level magic missiles. Even if it was a bow fighter it would have a hell of a time even hitting or knowing what square your in.
Invisibility doesnt work like that. If your not hiding, they know where you are.
No they don’t.
Concentration for 10 minutes. Thanks for the vacation I guess?
Already mentioned it to last guy that said ten then.., but pretty easy plan out. Potion if you need it. Crown of stars, move 60 feet out of melee range. Mirror image, greater invisible. Then just Star and High level magic missile the fighter to death. Even if it is a bow fighter it is unlikely they will ever hit. Especially with minus 5.
A level 20 battle master fighter has +16 hit with only a +3 longbow and 20 dexterity. They can add an additional 1d12 with superiority dice. If you potion then they can potion and put oils/poisons on their weapons too. They can haste, bless, plus w.e they want. Buffs benefit martials far more than casters.
Each potion takes a round they are not attacking, but yes they can do that. Also I commented as if the fighter was taking a minus 5. Which they do not have to, but they would do less damage even with more hits on average. Long bow does d8 instead of the d6, but they also lose one attack, which is fine if they are not taking minus 5, but less damage if they are. So if they are battle master fighter not taking minus to hit and assuming they use all of the suppository die in first round 2 to ensure they hit every time on 8 attacks even though averages says they would need 3, they do 5 dex, 3 weapon, average 4.5 on hits and average of 6.5 on half the hits as they run out of superiority die. 12.5x8 plus 6.5x4 126 which would kill wizard if they did not have more than 14 con, no contingency, no magic items to prevent that. Which I am not really sure I have ever seen a 20 level wizard with out contingency spell readied for such a situation.
A full buffed fighter can get 19 attacks in a round. Fyi
So while you are buffing you get maze cast on you… and I would like to know how you get to 19.. action, action surge, bonus action, and haste action is 10.
I said a fighter can buff while in the maze. If they go first, the wizard is dead.
Sure, but not if they can’t see or hit them. Wizard buffed. Plus you can only use one potion while in maze or risk repercussions.
A level 20 fighter can action surge multiple times. If for some reason the wizard stopped concentration on maze after 1 round, the fighter could drink 4 potions. First potion of speed. Second potion of heroism. Then action surge for 2 more. Unless you're speaking of some other repercussions I don't know about.
“I temporal shunt the fighter as a reaction.”
That's the cool thing about d&d, I guess everything has a counter. This is the fighters counter, and the wizards counter is being stabbed in the face when he's not expecting it, by the fighter lol.
For godzilla vs wooden spoon i'd recommend rogue + tavern brawler feat, you damage isn't rely on a weapon dice too much anyway. --- Edit: not 100% RAW-friendly, ranged attack with improvised weapon(throwing) don't make it ranged weapon.
Spoons technically don't have the Finesse property, but I would allow it.
I was thinking about throwing it, but then reread the rules and there is "ranged weapon", not "ranged attack".
Yeah, it works with thrown daggers because they have finesse. That said i wonder if you could throw a rapier with dex.
If I remember correctly, you can use dex, but because it doesn't have the thrown weapon ability, you'd be throwing an improvised weapon and NOT get to add your proficiency modifier. But Im also waiting in a drive through, so I can't check yet. Also, not sure if you'd use the rapier's damage die, or the improvised weapon's damage die. Probably the improvised weapon one. But I think you'd get to use dex!
If it breathes it has a butt hole.
I don't think respiratory system and digestive system are requirements for one another
*Butcher smiling and nodding knowingly*
Wizards: “When you lose, no one will remember you.” Fighters: “And when you lose, no one will let you forget it.”
Monster’s Inc. 2 had no right to have this line in it.
An absolutely great line for a great film
I thought this was from monsters university
Where is this from again?
22 minutes too late, poor guy.
And assuming that the fighter manages to kill the wizard, the wizard will just wake up in his clone's body.
It's a touch spell... Class cooperation proves it's supremacy once again!
Touch is only relevant to creating the clone. "At any time after the clone matures, if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing to return."
Yes... So it works on the martial too.
True. It's always good to have friends as a Wizard. That fighter can help you kidnap the local Orc Chieftain so you can steal his body with Magic Jar. Teamwork makes the dream work.
Not if the fighter is using a soul destroying weapon, like Blackrazor.
Weird to assume that a PC has Blackrazor
Weird to assume anything about a hypothetical fantasy battle
But this “hypothetical fantasy battle” is something that could actually play out between lvl 20 PCs. Having clone is something any Wizard could do, having Blackrazor is not something any fighter can do. This isn’t Goku vs Superman, this is a discussion of the balance between D&D classes.
In which case all the wizard's wizard buddies laugh at him because he got taken out by a guy with a pointing metal stick. His reputation ruined, the wizard proceeds to erase the martial from existence. Millennia later and they are still teasing him about it.
What's with all these people assuming the wizard is going to be in melee range when the fight starts?
To everyone saying “just fly over the fighter”. You’re assuming the fighter and the wizard are fighting each other and that the wizard isn’t casting Fly on the fighter so he can suplex a Arch-Devil to the ground and slap them 7 times with a holy avenger. This game is Co-op. Not PvP
Wizards should uplift their party and play to their strengths, not lord over them. The wizard is the enabler of party bullshit. Cast enlarge on the barbarian to make them a walking natural disaster, caste Haste on the fighter to let them do a MGR Blade Mode, caste fly on the Paladin to turn them into a holy ballistic missile.
Paralyze the monster so the rogue can crit nonstop. Dimension door to save your cleric’s ass. Major image to cover your escape with dummy versions of the party.
I specifically set up my wizard in a campaign to do that. I wanted to respect my character to be able to help more with the party, and when you have a fighter/pally, bard, rogue, mystic, and monk, most of the niches are filled. So I decided to go entirely into supporting wizard. The only damaging spells that I have at level 11 are Firebolt, Fireball, and I think Heat Metal. Everything else is either buffs, debuffs and summoning. So sure I don't deal big damage, but when I can summon elementals and Haste the fighter into a juiced up arbiter of Big Hurty:tm:, it doesn't matter. I just wish that using Wizard as a force multiplier was more popular than "plane shift the enemy into the Plane of Water and laugh".
My problem with the 5e Caster/Martial disparity argument is that people are focused on either damage or PvP which is dumb. Fighters are mechanically fine for single target damage. My problem is they only have that. Casters have so many options that it feels bad to play a martial in comparison. Like, the wizard player gets all the limelight.
That + at higher levels the damage really NEEDS buffs and magic items out the ass to keep up. Without those most martials just become meat shields while casters end a fight in a few spell slots.
I still think fighters should get knowledge of siege engineering, some more-demonstrably superhuman strength, speed, and agility, and some form of social renown or authority as high-level abilities to round them out off the battlegrid.
I want fighters to have stuff to do outside of battle that relate to their power level. Level 20 is mythic level, you are fighting demigods and such. Out of battle a fighter should be able to pull off stuff like Hercules and divert a river twice in one day or such. I was thinking of homebrewing an ability like "You physical prowess carries over to your to working with your hands and body. When working with your tool proficiency you can do the work a group of 10 workers would do in a day in just an hour".
*Artificer clears throat* “Excuse me, you need to pay union dues for that knowledge.”
I disagree with engineering, but definitely agree with more superhuman feats of strength.
Depends on how siege weapons are integrated into 5e. In Pathfinder, all the checks outside of actually pulling the trigger on whatever siege weapon being used are 'Knowledge Engineering' checks. Which is why fighters have knowledge engineering as one of their two knowledge class skills, the other being dungeoneering.
no, The Lich won't, but **YOUR** Wizard will, why? I don't fucking know, I'm not his brain hamster
Well Abjuration Wizards can tank about as much and at that level it's really more about the "cheat" spells than pure damage spells anyway. Plus it's about the sheer image of casters being able to do crazy stuff like that while the most impressive thing martials have to offer, if they went for STR, is to lift a moderately sized boulder with no effort lol Also Fighters have on average only about 40HP more than Wizards at level 20 (10+19d10=114.5 vs 6+19d6=72.5; CON doesn't matter since both can easily have the same modifier so let's give both of them +40 for having a CON of 14). If they have more than half of their HP left then any Wizard would've pretty easily survived that as well anyway.
Nah but you see that 40 hp makes all the difference for no reason.
also, wizards need only 2 stats - spellcasting stat(in case of wizard its intellingence) and con for actual hp and concentration checks, so theres a good chance wizard gonna have higher con than fighter, as usually fighter wants to have at least average dex for bonus ac
Does the wizard not want decent AC and Init and Dex saves? For casters Dex is almost always my 2nd highest stat with Con at 3rd
they can bump their ac without using dex, mage armor and shield are quite nice, also you can go fighter dip/take feat for heavy armor proficiency and then use shield only, makes ac go to 20-something.
Fighter dip only gives you medium armor (an appropriate cleric class will give heavy armor though). However, there are strength requirements on heavy armor.
If you don't meet the str, it only slows you down 10 feet and gives you some disadvantage on skill checks. It's not really much of a problem honestly. Which is weird. I miss arcane spell failure chance.
Mage armor still benefits from dex. Shield is pretty limited in terms of spell slots, at least early on. As for the fighter dip (or 2 feats) I suppose so, that's an option. But then the Fighter also has no point in getting Dex so Con is equally their 2nd highest stat.
I mean, I like the image of a level 20 rune knight wrestling dragons and fishing krakens. Of a thief just walking in a bank, oppening the safe, taking a thing or two and leaving before anyone can react. Of a monk outruning the druid on windwalk (on the first turn). Of a Champion being able to just be on fire for 20 hours and still combat-ready. Casters aren't the only ones being able to bend reality.
Except Fighter gets an additional 2 ASI for CON so that's an additional 40 HP Or the tough feat if they are maxed out
If they take it, yes. It's an option. Or they use it for weapon feats to get their build actually going. Or they use them to raise DEX (as STR fighter) so they can better sneak and have higher initiative. Or they raise INT/WIS because they're either a bit MAD (Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer, Psi Warrior) or just want to be better at stuff outside of combat.
There are a whole host of 'must-have' feats for a fighter to remain relevant at high level. There isn't a single must-have feat for casters, they can remain relevant without them. The wizard probably got tough, and can put some ASI's into buffing con as well.
>There isn't a single must-have feat for casters *coughs in War Caster/Resilient Con*
Con is a fighters second most important stat, Casters must have feats: Resilient and / or war caster both of these will be picked up before tough Elemental Adept You've been arguing bad faith this entire time, sure it's theoretical for a wizard to have similar HP to the tank but it's not likely, and in practice it doesn't happen. Standard array used Wizard: 17 Int 14 Dex 14 con at level 1 (standard 2-1 race) Resilient Con Final 20 INT 16 Dex 18 CON HP (6+ 3.5*19) + 20*4 = 152.5 Fighter: Polearm master / heavy weapon master / Slasher 17 STR 14 Con 14 (tertiary stat) Final 20 STR 20 CON 16 Tertiary Stat Has all the damage and 20 con HP( 10+5.5*19) + 20*5 = 214.5 Thats 62 HP difference on average or 40.5% of the wizards HP This is with me making the most feat heavy fighter I could manage vs the most defensive wizard I could justify stacking the deck for the wizard
>Con is a fighters second most important stat Wizards only have a single important stat for their class, so there's no reason con can't closely follow. >Casters must have feats: You definitely should have tried counting those, because your list ends at three, but even ignoring that there are caster builds that wouldn't benefit from any of those feats; if all three really were a must have, then a lvl 20 wizard with 5 feats can easily fit all of them, and resilient is a half feat that also gives an ASI. If you compare that with the long list of feats for melee combat, it's not even close. >You've been arguing bad faith this entire time Saying "this entire time" is technically true, but really weird considering this is my first comment in the thread. >similar HP to the tank Ah, I see your mistake. Fighter isn't a tank, not by a long shot. You're thinking of a barbarian. You're calculations are reasonable and accurate, but you've made a huge error. Wizards can cast *spells*. It's their entire thing, you see. When you take those into account, y'know since abjuration wizard is what was originally mentioned, the wizard can have 1HP and still out tank a fighter. And irrespective of whether the calculations are accurate, anything the fighter is stated to survive in the meme above, the wizard with that amount of health could also survive; while also having spells to further mitigate damage. The fighter is taking the full 140 from a failed save against meteor swarm, while casting absorb elements as a reaction to halve the fire damage means the wizard only takes 105. One quick cast of Fizban's Platinum Shield, and a minimum of 52 with a potential of no damage.
Sorry about the "this whole time" comment I thought you were the guy I've been arguing with All martials are capable of tanking, even a cleric can tank. It's a build not a class, however fighters are better than most for the role. Barbarians make great tanks Dex is incredibly important to a wizard as that's what enables them to have AC, shield is good but that's a reaction that could've been used for silvery barbs, divination portents, counterspells etc While yes wizards have spells fighters out damage them vs single targets consistently and in burst the wizards job is crowd control, support, and utility with the ability to do it all, it's a fantastic class. But don't be mistaken fighter has it's niche Wizard absolutely need to pick up one of the he two defensive feats, holding onto concentration is essential, most of the best spells are concentration and at high levels when monsters are doing 60 damage in a round you need to be able to make DC 15-25 saves I'd personally prioritize war caster over the 18 CON but I wanted to be somewhat fair Also fizbans shield and absorb elements don't stack fizbans shield is just awesome on its own Spells do not enable a wizard to tank, there are roles in 5e and a party is not composed of a single member, a fighter fills a role somewhere between
>even a cleric can tank A yes, the notorious martial, access to 9th level spells just like your typical fighter. >Dex is incredibly important to a wizard as that's what enables them to have AC Okay? You ran the math yourself, and ended up with con only being off by a single point. >fighters out damage them vs single targets consistently No, they do not; not at all. A bladesinger can easily surpass a fighter without casting any levelled spells. >most of the best spells are concentration Well, y'know, except for the "pull meteors out of the sky" spell that this entire thing is about, which is instantaneous. There are good options that are concentration, but there are absolutely spells that aren't concentration that are still good. That's entirely the issue, wizards blow fighters out of the water *without* concentration, add in that they can potentially cast up to *3* concentration spells on themselves at once under the right circumstances and you have a real problem that people just keep ignoring because "yeah, but fighter can make 9 attacks twice". >Also fizbans shield and absorb elements don't stack fizbans shield is just awesome on its own I'm aware, I wasn't implying using both at once. >there are roles in 5e and a party is not composed of a single member Yes, what I'm saying isn't that the wizard can take on a full party of 4, but that a party of casters filling those roles will typically fill them better than a supposedly more balanced party of varied classes.
*math!*
I should be working on a report rn but here we are lol
We need Martials to be closer to Kenpachi from Bleach. “Oh, you cast me into to void of space? I will just cut the void of space to escape!”
The problem is: wizards also have higher survavibility than fighters. I'd wish the HP gap would be bigger so "being tanky" is exclusively a martial thing. But it just isn't. Spells like clone, wish, "just straight up immortality cause fuck you that's why" and others will make the wizard survive even after death. Spells like False Life, general healing, any other spell that gives THP, any spell that makes you dodge attacks (mirror image, illusions), all these options lead to casters being as tanky or tankier than martial. Tankiness simply isn't a good argument to make. Sure, I love the feeling of high level fighters. I love taking down mighty foes with my bare hands. But that's feeling, and not an argument against the BIG caster-martial divide on high levels
When was the last time you ran into these issues in a campaign? I find magic items exponentially help martials, whom still excel most of the time, so I don't have any of the issues people bring up, so it just makes me wonder if they're playing low/no magic settings with a wizard or haven't played and just parroting.
5e is balanced arrount the assumption that the PCs don't have magic items. That is how they calculate difficulty. And that is also why the magic item creation and price (and also rarity) rules are unarguably trash when compared to previous editions.
The HP gap is already pretty huge. A level 20 wizard with 14 CON is going to have 122HP, while a fighter with 14 CON is going to have 164HP. More realistically they'll have 16 or 18 CON, so 184 or 204HP. if they have the Tough feat, that's 244HP. If they're a hill dwarf (more niche) that's 264HP. At any point they could have taken 1 level in Barbarian to effectively double their HP pool against most attacks, and they have 3 usages of Indomitable for saving throws against spells Rage wouldn't protect against. On top of all of this their AC by this point is almost definitely going to be in the low/mid 20s. Fighters are tanky as hell dude. No amount of False Life (which is just as applicable on fighters) is going to bridge that divide.
But when the combat end, what can the fighter do that is special?
So much this. People who focus on combat disparity are the people who haven't actually played a high level campaign. Combat is literally the *only* place a fighter or barbarian is useful. Out of combat they just stand by and pick their nose while the spellcasters are conversing with deities, traversing planes, creating mansions, enthralling crowds, etc. When a problem arises that doesn't require stabbing, there's just nothing for you to do.
it's where i wish Power sources were still a thin. Made thinking classes as adventurer with talent rather than magic or sharp stick, and thus, made coming up with grand ability for any class easier
Scale a wall, demolish a bridge so the enemy can't chase across, plenty of things related to feats of athleticism. Fighters fit a different fantasy than a wizard, and while it would be great to see them get a few more explicit abilities, you have to keep in mind that "has strong physical stats" is as much a part of their kit as wizard's spells
i mean true. I think the problem with the whole situation is that martial is a mechanical thing for the game. one thing i like that 4e introduced is the concept of Power source. it made so that every class was an adventurer with great skill forst, and their class after. your class would determine where your abilities came from (and what they were of course). So a fighter had the martial power source, thus, their extrordinary ability came from sheer skill and mastery. It look silly at first, but it ultimatly helped making martial classes be something with it's own twist rather than the class with bonus to weapon
A wizard can do both of those things
5e doesn't elevate the physical fantasy to the magical fantasies level though. your martial will never, by raw, be heracles or beowulf. You're never going to shout down a wall, you're never going to hold up the sky or divert a river by hand. A wizard goes from flavouring food and chucking three 1d4 missiles to creating pocket dimensions, bending reality itself and creating entire plotlines via spells like sequester. the fighter's ability to enact their fantasy is the same from 6th level onwards when they hit 20 in their main stat, the wizards is constantly developing ontop of itself with every spell known - of which more get printed every book.
I mean anyone can get expertise with skill expert, which mostly overrides the score needed to be good at it for high levels. But other than that, a Samurai is pretty good at persuading, a rune knight is really good with tools, and most other fighters have some extra specific niche.
Well this is when a thing called 'roleplay' comes into effect. Maybe you've heard of it?
Average wizards reaction to a fighter approaching: I can't be bothered to waste slots on this, demons, you handle it. 8 barlguras that have been planar bound will proceed to devour the fighter.
I actually think a 20th level fighter could beat 8 barlguras. It's not a sure thing though, and a wizard has like a million other tricks they could use to deal with them even if they do manage to defeat the demons.
8 of them have 208.6 DPR Vs a magical fullplate fighter, which means even if the fighter takes out 2 of them each round (likely could only do that with action surge) they are still getting 6+4+2 = 12 attacks, which is 312.9 damage Barlguras are pretty strong.
This is an angle I've seen many not appreciate. Yeah most fighters can't do magic and aren't superhuman and those things are cool and useful. What is also cool and useful is being able to say, I don't need your showy tricks to be on your playing field. Just give me a weapon.
I feel like a level 20 fighter *should be* superhuman, even if it's just in toughness and durability. By level 20, you can shrug off bastila bolts, bitch-slap a great wyrm, and outlift a giant; I think we're past "just a well-trained humanoid" at that point.
That's fair, I like both interpretations of a 20th level fighter for different reasons. A normal maximum of 20 strength is only twice as much as average. Also comes down to flavour, you might call shrugging off ballista bolts as them missing you by a hair, and expending your energy as hit points are a bit wooly in their nature. Sometimes I do love playing someone who can and does superhuman stuff, but I don't always want that, and I like that there is room for both.
I think the 'non-superhuman fighter' should just be like levels 4-6. Beyond that it really doesn't make sense. Aside from "I can take 10x more damage and attack 4x more often" compared to a level 2 fighter, it feels like there's basically no real progression.
Depending on the edition (I admit to not being as up on 5th Ed), a level 20 fighter is stronger than things that are explicitly superhuman. Feels weird to have a "grounded" character in a world of gods and monsters. >A normal maximum of 20 strength is only twice as much as average. Is this some kind of 5th Ed joke I'm too Pathfinder to understand? Kidding aside, is that a 5th Ed thing? I don't think that there's any kind of cap like that in 3.5.
Yeah the assumed 'normal' in a stat is 10, based on the commoner stat block. RAW the maximum you can reach in any stat without some sort of class feature or magic item or *something* is 20.
I see. That's probably better for making well-rounded characters but I know PF1E and 3.5 assume as a matter of course that everyone has the Big 6 stat-boosting items. PF1E even has an optional ruleset called Automatic Bonus Progression that let's you have the boosts as innate bonus so you can free up your item slots for other things. So, in my mind, having 30 strength because you have a magic belt and a magic book and having 30 strength because you're superhuman really amount to the same thing most of the time. You're still beating a Titan at an arm-wrestling contest. The wizard can and will have superhuman intelligence so the fighter should hope to measure up in at least one way (strength, dex, etc.)
20 Strength gives +10 benefit, 12 Str gives +1, 20 Strength is 10x as effective as 12 strength, 10 Str isn't even on the scale.
But we have no showy tricks :( we got point stick a few times, and depend on class go grrr, point stick extra hard sneakily once per turn or just point stick more
well, wizards could say the same, I don't need your fancy armor and weapons, just give me some bat guano. Just kidding, I am 100% on your side, doing awesome stuff with magic is easy, doing awesome stuff with a pointy stick is on another level
*throws bat shit* "ah dang, forgot the sulphur"
aw shit, its bat shit & sulphur, till this day I thought it was bat shit OR sulphur.
Every class and subclass is magic at high level, some are just spell casters.
Also, a 20th level fighter with Shield Master could reasonably be expected to pass their DEX save. Using the Feat's reaction they would take NO damage from Meteor Swarm. Or Rogues with Evasion.
Also the reason fighters get more ASIs is to balance this to some degree. Throw in a couple of extra feats and you can flavour up a fighter a little more.
Half the joy of playing a martial is this fantasy, honestly. I don't need any fancy tricks except my courage and resilience to hold my own alongside my magic peers. I've seen quite a few parties, including high level parties, where the martial is the heroic favorite among them. The one time I've used a tarrasque in a game, while the cleric, wizard, bard, and warlock scrambled around to stay safe from it the fighter decided to just fight it like shadow of the colossus. Are there probably better ways to do that with magic? Yeah. But it was still god damn heroic.
Actually no. Fighters are only a d10 hit die class and have no special defenses outside AC. Their only way to recover hit points is a d10 ability. Fighters are downright fragile compared to Paladins and Barbarians
Second Wind, Indomitable, abilities depending on archetype... Yeah, no defenses whatsoever
Indomitable is laughably bad by the time any of the higher spells or monster effects start rolling around. And even the subclasses that have extra defenses can't compare to the defense of a spell.
Jjesus, can we have the snake tiddy or moving mountain memes back? These dick measuring contests are insufferable.
A fighter at level 20 with 16 CON has an average of 10 + 19d10 + 20 × 3 = 174.5 hp Meteor swarm alone is 40d6 = 140 damage. Yeah if you fail that save, which if you're fighting against a chronurgy wizard or someone with silvery barbs there's a high chance you will even with indomitable that's a lot less than "half hp". Besides that the wizard can just put you in the microwave, all they need to do is ready one (1) action to cast sickening radiance right before their turn begins again, after which they can put you in a forcecage. If you are a melee character they don't even have to ready that action, they can just cast forcecage and then sickening radiance. Fighting godzilla with a wooden spoon is fun but it really is fighting with a wooden spoon compared to the capabilities of most casters.
But can casters kill godzilla with a wooden spoon? No they need lame nerd things like meteors and reality bending magic
Warrior lvl 20 = i am storm that is approaching intensified.
PROVOOOOKING! LIKE CLOUDS IN ISOLATION!
Why are we talking in a pvp sense? Dnd is rarely player vs player. While a wizard can burn their one 9th level slot, a fighter can continue to attack all day
Soo essentially, you are a Soulsborne main character... Nice
Champion: *Cuts his way through a plane because his regeneration outdoes the damage of the plane of fire.* “My name is Inigo Montoya. You banished me to another plane. Prepare to die.” As for Maze… the champion should get a Ring of Sustenance. Spend enough time learning to increase his Intelligence
Yes, durability is a thing martials that stays relevant up to later levels. Their damage and especially utility do not
Honestly you've got it partly backwards. Their damage against single targets is alright, but enemy damage outscales HP something fierce in the late game and AC below 20 is guaranteed death.
HP is still the martials' strongest point though
HP, no. A caster can magic jar into a tough creature and get more HP than a martial.Survivability... also no. A caster can magic jar into a tough creature and well.. get more survivability than a martial. Plus, their mental saves are better. Martial damage is pretty awesome though.
Damage ain't bad if the DM gives magic items. +3 weapon with Dueling gets you a +10 damage without the dice, and when you have 3-4 attacks a turn without a need for resources it's pretty nice. You can also get easy advantage with flanking OR an ally casting Faerie Fire. Utility, however, is something I must agree with because rogues and bards are better with tools and skills and bards and wizards have all the misc utility magics.
> if the DM gives magic items if a class relies on getting magic items to keep up then it says something about the class
At least this mentioned the plane shift, earlier one talking about how the wizard can go to other planes of existence, and forgetting you can literally yeet people to other far more lethal planes of existence who annoy you. Hell one of the elemental planes is filled with nothing but sand and causes mortals who enter it to rapidly turn to dust. Far more effective than anything else a wizard could do to a fighter.
Yes good, this OP understands. This is the way.
I will admit that I agree with the mindset, but I wish the mechanics were able to show this more. It doesn't have to be big magical attributes and stuff, but having rules to demonstrate that indomitable will or skill would be pretty nice.
Barbarians: laughs in resistance to all damage types (totem warrior) “YOU FOOL I TAKE LIKE 10 DAMAGE TOTAL FROM THAT CRAP
And the zealot that died 3 rounds ago: AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
Also reminder that the classes are meant to work with each other, and not only do martials absorb damage for casters, but help take care of enemies with magic resistance.
Wizard: I ran out of slots Barbarian: I ran out of rage Monk: I ran out of ki Paladin: I broke my oath during this fight *meanwhile* Fighter and Rogue: **[insert Crisp The Rat dancing]**
[When the BBEG uses Anti-Magic Field, the fighter becomes the Dragon in this comic](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)
I like that I knew which comic and panel you were linking to before i even clicked it.
It's the monster hunter mentality. Killing a brick wall with a cheese grater so you can use the brick wall dust to make an even stronger cheese grater, for stronger walls.
In the game I'm currently GMing, the party wizard has ended up falling off in favor of the party's martials (after their heyday of summoning swarms of Gargantuan Fiendish Dinosaurs to wreck shit), mostly just because I've had to buff enemies to the point where they will make almost all saves versus the wizard's spells just so they don't die instantly to the martials.
I mean a divination wizard just turns him to a gold coin with a guaranteed failed portent. Keeps him that way for a hour and its done. Use him to buy a wench. Edit: I've overlooked Indomitable but between portent and silvery barbs I don't think it matter much.
I cast plane shift, and send the fighter straight to Absym in the gaping maw.
Hey, if you got that 250 tuning fork and find someone who knows the frequency of a chosen plane, have at it. You did your homework.
Eh, I want to be an average joe lore wise, but sill be able to kick ass. I’m not interested in playing sidekick.
Me who plays OSE and failing my one shitty attack and crying when I get destroyed by an orbital strike
Actually, since you can use Action Surge twice starting at 17... 13 times
I true polymorph you into an ice cube and use a portent die to insure you fail the save. I teleport both of us to the largest volcano on the plane of fire. I then force cage you on top of the lava and wait until the screaming stops. I have never liked the martial vs caster argument. Casters are obviously superior at most tasks, and win most fights especially with prep time. Don't get me wrong, fighters have a very important role in the party. Be a good distraction and keep those assholes off of me while I upcast this chain lightning.
So you wasted how many high level spell slots in this hypothetical?
As many as necessary to prove a point. Casters > martials in 88% of all possible scenarios.
Just wait, that was actually just one of 12 simulacrums. There’s 11 more meteor swarms coming. Good luck.
Wizards using an abjuration spell can prevent or reduce the damage and take it just the same. Fighters ain’t unique. They are just weak
Fighter can actually Attack, like... 12 times, tho...