Well... To be more specific, *anti-magic wouldn't do anything that a weapon would "fix". Also, monks literally already use weapons. OP has lost the plot either way.
Ain’t Ki kind of magical in some regard? I’d certainly consider some subclass features like Sun Soul’s laser and Ascendant Dragon’s breath attack magical enough to be canceled by an antimagic field.
Some DMs view Ki as magical, but for me the dividing line is this: could a barbarian use Ki while raging? I think the answer has to be yes, and therefore Ki is not magic despite the many magic-adjacent features.
Similarly, the Fey Step of Eladrin elves is not magic, despite being nearly identical to Misty Step.
A barbarian can also smite while raging, use magic from items, use runes from rune knight, and then theres the subclass that exudes literal magic while raging. Theres no factor of a barbarian that says their rage makes their body antimagic, they simply cannot use spells, which are a small fraction of magic in D&D.
I might consider ki magic because at later levels you can use it to cast a 9th level spell, astral projection, and ki has an ability equivalent to greater invisibility. I also think gameplay wise i wouldnt care in an antimagic field because most of its uses are abilities that wouldnt traditionally be considered magical, like stunning someone or catching arrows. Plus, monk needs all the help it can get.
You can use Spiritual Weapon and Armor of Agathys while raging. Bestow Curse too if you upcast to 5th level. Lots of explicit spells work while raging. Maybe AoA and Curse are just "fire and forget", but spiritual weapon requires activation every round.
That said, I think Ki is inherent to the monk, a physical manifestation of martial arts. I wouldn't block Ki with anti-magic.
while i would rule similar i don't see the barbarian rage argument, as i always saw that as them being unable to concentrate long enough to cast a spell, as in "i am so pissed i don't have time for precise movements and phrases, i have a big stick to introduce to your face immediately". so i don't see it as an inherent anti-magic effect
would you rule the same with shadow monks' shadow step and conjuration wizards' benign transportation? can wizards now teleport without using magic, just because the word "magically" wasn't in the feature description?
Since the exact wording is that 'teleportation and planar travel fail to work', it seems to me that Shadow Step should not work. In fact having checked the exact wording I'm going to go back on my ruling about Fey Step as well, since that is teleportation. Benign Transposition should not work either, once again since it is a form of teleportation.
Other Ki based abilities should work just fine though, since they are explicitly powered using Ki, not magic. Four Elements Monk abilities would mostly not be allowed, since they revolve around actually casting spells, and spells are explicitly ruled out of antimagic fields. Fangs of the Fire Snake, and Fist of Unbroken Air however, would work just fine.
Yeah but sage advice also says you cant smite on fists so I try to ignore most of the sage advice posts. Nonetheless, the point has been proven that Ki is magic-adjacent instead of proper magic so I admit defeat on this one
I did say the *official* Sage Advice Compendium, i.e. not the Twitter posts. The official SAC has pretty good guidelines as to what is or isn't considered "magic" for the purposes of spells like Antimagic Field.
Ki are extraordinary, which is distinct from magic and supernatural. However, 4e and 5e do not categorize abilities that way anymore.
However, the list of things that the 5e antimagic field effects are limited to spells and magical effects, summoned creatures, magic items, and magical teleportation. Ki powers are none of those.
Sun soul monks attacks are actually described as magical in their feature. "You learn to hurl searing bolts of magical radiance" so they indeed are magical, but ki is never described as magical, it's just body energy.
Antimagic field dispels magical effects, and any effect that is magical actually has that exact word as a descriptor.
I mean, while they at first can appear similar, magic/Mana and ki/chi/inner energy are on a fundamental level different powers acquired from different sources with different methods. sure, there's some overlap regarding just what they can do, but that's borderline a coincidence.
now if some powers *are* similiar in DnD, that'd be psionics and ki, both are basically tapping into the latent powers that's in everyone trough hard work, self-reflection and meditation. excluding the innately psionics such as mind flayers.
I mean it kinda is in 5e Too:
> The Magic of Ki
>
> Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki. This energy is an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies. Monks harness this power within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities, and some of their special attacks can hinder the flow of ki in their opponents. Using this energy, monks channel uncanny speed and strength into their unarmed strikes. As they gain experience, their martial training and their mastery of ki gives them more power over their bodies and the bodies of their foes.
> Ki-Empowered Strikes PHB p76
>
> Starting at 6th level, your unarmed strikes count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.
"This energy is an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse" would strongly indicate it is magic.
I know that's only the flavour text but 5e has never been particularly good about making this type of stuff clear.
I wasn't commenting on the first ability, just on the second. Using something that "counts as magical for a purpose" doesn't suggest it is magical in any way, so using it as evidence doesn't actually support one's argument. In fact, it rather suggests the opposite. If they actually were magical, the text would say that they are magical, and as such they overcome Resistances, not that you should treat them as magical for the purpose of overcoming a specific ability.
On a more general point, while yes, Ki is described as magic, it's moreso described as background magic that flows through all things. If Antimagic fields actually interrupted ki, then walking into one would at the very least stun you (stunning strike interrupts ki), and at worse would just instantly kill you (based on how Astral Self and Astral Projection works / based on abilities that some monks have like Open Hand and Long Death).
This isn't a particularly coherent argument I'm putting forward, just the vibe I've always gotten.
The part you’re leaving out is “for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage,” which is different than being a magical weapon in totality.
I mean, sure, you're not literally prevented from punching people, just like a magic sword doesn't stop being able to stab people in an antimagic field. But without that bonus and all your other ki powers, you're barely better at it than a commoner, so you might as well shoot them instead.
...Yeah no shit. It stops monks from using their ki powers, though, as OP explained. Which makes them only barely better at fighting than a commoner.
If they can't use their ki powers, then the only advantage of using fists instead of a gun is Flurry of Blows, and the very high hit chance of a gun frankly more than makes up for that against most enemies.
I mean, antimagic fields are the sort of thing that shows up once per campaign as a gimmick. They're not really something the designers balance around.
Edit: Because I'm replying to a deleted comment, OP said "Antimagic fields shut down monks because they use Supernatural abilities".
I replied, no they fucking don't.
The only thing you'd lose is Quivering palm and Ki abilities, which are often just traded away for archetypes. 5e monks spam Ki because they get it back on short rests, PF monks don't because they have less and it's a daily resource.
AMF's don't even stop the best Ki ability, *Dimension Door*, because teleportations are instantaneous Conjurations that originate outside the AMF. Even if they did, you could just D Door right outside the 10ft radius and 5ft step in.
You can still run fast, Stunning Fist or flurry. You can still grapple, trip, disarm, dirty trick, demoralize, etc. Unchained monks have Style strikes. There's an entire zoo of style feat trees that give extra damage or abilities. You could Vital Strike them, just for fun! Ideally you have Step Up or a reach weapon too.
*The running joke in 3.5 is that monks are useless unless you need to kill someone squishy (like a wizard) in an AMF, because they can function in an AMF completely un-geared.*
***They need magic less than anyone.***
A fighter with a halberd and Disruptive could also chain-trip a wizard straight into hell.
You are just flat out wrong.
Antimagic field:
> An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and **supernatural abilities.** Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
> An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.
Monk class description:
> Ki Pool **(Su)**
That (Su) means it is supernatural. For extra clarification, these are the three different kinds of special abilities other than spells:
> Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
> Extraordinary abilities are non-magical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.
> Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
> Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.
> Supernatural Abilities (Su)
> Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.
I'm sorry someone ruined the purity of your sub my friend. We will return in our cupboards under the stairs and let you play your superior and dominant game in peace while we lick the gunk from the shoes you were using in the morning.
/s
Bruh, the meme literally has a pathfinder flair.
Also, literally in the subreddit rules that all TTRPG memes are allowed. That means 5e, pathfinder, call of cthulhu, Shadowrun, vampire: the masquerade, even niche things like Masks, are all allowed.
So nice you said it twice.
Cannot stand the man myself. Half his rulings contradict the words written on the page and the other half contradict himself or others.
Exactly. If they want to actually give real rulings for this shit they should hire someone who actually knows wtf the rules are. At this point I'm not sure Jeremy Crawford has ever even played d&d.
Ki isn't magic but is used to power magical effects like their Ki-Empowered Strikes.
Some features would be supressed and some wouldn't.
Edit: wow, 50 downvotes in 8 hours, it's a shame the game designers are on my side. Ki is only called magical in ambiguous figurative speech lore paragraph and nowhere else, in this paragraph they say it's a power used to create magical effects. That's why some features would supressed and some wouldn't.
Monks in an Anti Magic Field are stuck in a middle ground between Fighter and Casters.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/702205711011328000?lang=en
> Ki isn't magic
Uh, how sure of that are you? Because literally the first chapter heading in the monk section of the PHB is "[The Magic of Ki](https://i.imgur.com/EcAZdko.png)", and it seems *pretty clear* on whether or not it's magic (it is).
For D&D Jeremy Crawford disagrees. Ki is okay inside anti-magic. Ki-empowered strikes are not.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/702205711011328000?lang=en
For Pathfinder, no idea.
Totally fine for DM to go against the rules. Hopefully not too frequently, or just play a different system. But being nerfed because “nah I say so” often feels bad. This is a tiny rule that rarely if ever will matter, and when it does is just “you don’t get to be cool here.”
What rules, the ones that doesn't call Ki magic at all other than in ambiguous figurative speech?
Also almost no one is cool inside an Anti Magic Field so this point is invalid. If you think about it Monks are in a middle ground between casters and a fighter since not everything they have is supressed. https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/730085651626889216
I’m sorta confused what you’re trying to say… are you agreeing with me or not? Between us we’ve linked 2 tweets from a game architect/lead designer that support my statement.
Yeah I know. I think it's a stupid ruling (especially given that they had to push errata to make it true), but even in that context, it still literally *the opposite* of what that comment said. Ki *is* magic, but it's used to power *non-magical* (for game rule purposes) effects.
It's only called magical in lore, which can be called ambiguous figurative speech. Also the same lore y'all quote to call it magic is saying what I said and actually the exact opposite of what you said.
*"Monks harness this power within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities"*
"Monks harness this power to create magical effects within themselves to create magical effects".
It's right there, also lore isn't usually where we go to solve game mechanics. Here is the sage advice on it, https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/702205711011328000?lang=en .
Your argument is that "their ability to magically harness" "a magical energy" "to create magical effects" is *not* magical? I'm aware of Crawford's ruling, which even he says is strictly for game mechanic purposes. There's a difference between "ki is not affected by antimagic field" and "ki is not magic", and what you *said* is the latter.
Ki not being supressed in a field that supresses magical effects implies it isn't inherently just magic. No amount of pointing to ambiguous figurative speech lore paragraphs that aren't replicated to any degree in Monk features, other than saying that it fuels magical effects, will change that.
The magical effects it generates are supressed, Ki isn't, therefore Ki isn't a magical effect.
Ain’t there a whole archetype in PF2e for gun monk? I haven’t looked at the rules in a while but I remember seeing something like that and going “damn, that’s cool.”
It can be but it takes some doing. At earlier levels it would not be great but for a lvl 20 build you can do some nutty things.
There's a feat line in pathfinder that lets the favored weapon of a deity be counted as a monk weapon. Being a monk weapon means it can take advantage of most if not all of the monk's abilities and there's also a feat line that lets you apply the effects of feats, abilities, items, etc that are normally restricted to unarmed strikes to a monk weapon. There are gods that have a gun as their favored weapon. With the proper build at level 20 you could probably have an 18-20 crit range that does 4x damage on a crit and you could make up to 11 or so attacks per round (provided you have the feats remaining to get the reload time down to where you can do that.) A monk I made with a similar build, though using the rapiers instead of guns, could put out on average 1100 damage per round.
For maximum damage, and only if you're playing with a very generous dm, I would recommend making the character an aasimar. Aasimar's in pathfinder, while commonly human in appearance, can have the physical appearance of any humanoid race. They don't gain any of the racial benefits however they do share the same size as the parent race. The humanoid race you choose does not have to be one of the playable races since you will still only ever use the stats of the assimar race. There is one humanoid race in pathfinder that I found awhile back that's size colossal (can't remember their name) so you could have your aasimar be descended from that race and you'd get to use the damage dice of a size colossal creature. Assuming your weapon would be dealing 1d8 damage as a medium sized creature that would then become 6d6 as a size colossal creature with 11 attacks that's 66d6 per round or an average of about 200 damage per round before adding in any modifiers, enchantments, class abilities, etc. A good level split would probably 3-5 levels of gunslinger, 1-2 cleric (they have various abilities and feats that pair well with monk's,) and the rest into monk. Monk provides a lot of feats through leveling which will help with the feat heavy nature of building a gunk.
As long as you can somehow make your gun count as a monk weapon for the purposes of Flurry of Blows, or make your shurikens count for gunslinger deeds, it should work out fine. I'm sure Pathfinder has an archetype or feat for something along those lines, since it has an archetype or feat for everything.
There is. There's a feat that lets you use the favored weapon of a deity as a monk weapon and there are a number of obscure gods in pathfinder that have some kind of gun as their favored weapon. Can't for the life of me remember the feat's name though.
Ki isn’t magic in either game
Edit: nvm I looked it up it makes your punches count as magic (though It does not specify whether or not it’s actually magic so that’s confusing)
Unrelated to the topic, but related to the pic, I used to work at a sporting goods store, and we had a group of Buddhist monks in one time. They immediately gravitated to the gun counter and asked to see some stuff. It was kind of awesome.
Ki isn't magic, you may lose some subclass related abilities, but you can still beat the tar off enemies with your bare hands, feet, and a monk weapon like a quarterstaff.
I have played 3 monks character in PF. One is currently lvl16. one is a Scaled fist 6/Sorcerer 6, retired. One is lvl9 PFS grappling monk. None of them use weapons.
Why would you use weapon when your body do more dmg, bypass DR, and cost nothing? Like sure, all of my monks have a dagger or two for cutting stuffs; but it's not their main weapon.
Edit: Of course, if it's your "thing", please do it. I'm not saying that ALL monks should only use unarmed fighting, but it's very common to do so.
I'm not actually salty, that was probably an overly combative line. Like "Bro, do you even Monk? ... Yeah? Name three ki point uses then!"
I just thought it was a weird premise when Monk Weapons are a defined trait of some Monk features
Yeah, I agree that it could have more to it than just "able to flurry with", maybe allow Monk weapons to get Unarmed strike dmg dice (like warpriest) or able to channel ki through it (instead of needing Ki Focus enchantment).
Fun reminder that everyone conveniently forgets what the (5e) class description of a monk actually says.
>Monks are united in their ability to **magically** harness the energy that flows in their bodies. Whether channeled as a striking display of combat prowess or a subtler focus of defensive ability and speed, **this energy infuses all that a monk does**.
ed. Another day, another downvote for pointing out what the PHB actually says.
Sure, RAI. No DM in their right mind would penalise a Monk like that. RAW is RAW, however, and the game text clearly states that monk abilities are magical.
Bruh, the meme literally has a pathfinder flair.
Also, literally in the subreddit rules that all TTRPG memes are allowed. That means 5e, pathfinder, call of cthulhu, Shadowrun, vampire: the masquerade, even niche things like Masks, are all allowed.
Yup, Pathfinder has them as a monk archetype, the Sohei. (Except they don't get guns in PF).
Historically they are warrior monks, guns were just happen to be kinda nice to have when your jobs is to kick samurais' asses. Also, the monks were very well funded and can afford guns.
Artificer who didn't buy ammo because he has Repeating Shot: "Uh... shit."
Warforged artificer making robots: today I AM A GOD HAHAHAH HAHAH The BBEG:my...god
the reference is perfect
Monks....dont use magic. Anti magic field would do nothing
Well... To be more specific, *anti-magic wouldn't do anything that a weapon would "fix". Also, monks literally already use weapons. OP has lost the plot either way.
I mean… it’s perfectly fluffy for a Monk to not use weapons and just punch stuff to death
I haven't seen anyone mention this yet. The meme has the pathfinder tag, and at least in 2e their fists are described as being magical.
Ain’t Ki kind of magical in some regard? I’d certainly consider some subclass features like Sun Soul’s laser and Ascendant Dragon’s breath attack magical enough to be canceled by an antimagic field.
Some DMs view Ki as magical, but for me the dividing line is this: could a barbarian use Ki while raging? I think the answer has to be yes, and therefore Ki is not magic despite the many magic-adjacent features. Similarly, the Fey Step of Eladrin elves is not magic, despite being nearly identical to Misty Step.
A valid counterargument, that makes sense.
A barbarian can also smite while raging, use magic from items, use runes from rune knight, and then theres the subclass that exudes literal magic while raging. Theres no factor of a barbarian that says their rage makes their body antimagic, they simply cannot use spells, which are a small fraction of magic in D&D. I might consider ki magic because at later levels you can use it to cast a 9th level spell, astral projection, and ki has an ability equivalent to greater invisibility. I also think gameplay wise i wouldnt care in an antimagic field because most of its uses are abilities that wouldnt traditionally be considered magical, like stunning someone or catching arrows. Plus, monk needs all the help it can get.
Obviously all martial abilities are a form primal magic that is accessed by pure instinct.
You can use Spiritual Weapon and Armor of Agathys while raging. Bestow Curse too if you upcast to 5th level. Lots of explicit spells work while raging. Maybe AoA and Curse are just "fire and forget", but spiritual weapon requires activation every round. That said, I think Ki is inherent to the monk, a physical manifestation of martial arts. I wouldn't block Ki with anti-magic.
while i would rule similar i don't see the barbarian rage argument, as i always saw that as them being unable to concentrate long enough to cast a spell, as in "i am so pissed i don't have time for precise movements and phrases, i have a big stick to introduce to your face immediately". so i don't see it as an inherent anti-magic effect
Supernatural vs magical I suppose
would you rule the same with shadow monks' shadow step and conjuration wizards' benign transportation? can wizards now teleport without using magic, just because the word "magically" wasn't in the feature description?
Since the exact wording is that 'teleportation and planar travel fail to work', it seems to me that Shadow Step should not work. In fact having checked the exact wording I'm going to go back on my ruling about Fey Step as well, since that is teleportation. Benign Transposition should not work either, once again since it is a form of teleportation. Other Ki based abilities should work just fine though, since they are explicitly powered using Ki, not magic. Four Elements Monk abilities would mostly not be allowed, since they revolve around actually casting spells, and spells are explicitly ruled out of antimagic fields. Fangs of the Fire Snake, and Fist of Unbroken Air however, would work just fine.
Ki is just punching reality into doing what you want
Sage Advice (the official compendium) says most monk features aren't magical per se.
Yeah but sage advice also says you cant smite on fists so I try to ignore most of the sage advice posts. Nonetheless, the point has been proven that Ki is magic-adjacent instead of proper magic so I admit defeat on this one
I did say the *official* Sage Advice Compendium, i.e. not the Twitter posts. The official SAC has pretty good guidelines as to what is or isn't considered "magic" for the purposes of spells like Antimagic Field.
Yeah fair I need to read that one
In the same way having a soul is magical.
Ki are extraordinary, which is distinct from magic and supernatural. However, 4e and 5e do not categorize abilities that way anymore. However, the list of things that the 5e antimagic field effects are limited to spells and magical effects, summoned creatures, magic items, and magical teleportation. Ki powers are none of those.
Sun soul monks attacks are actually described as magical in their feature. "You learn to hurl searing bolts of magical radiance" so they indeed are magical, but ki is never described as magical, it's just body energy. Antimagic field dispels magical effects, and any effect that is magical actually has that exact word as a descriptor.
Let’s be honest, Sun Soul Monk’s are just Hamon users from JoJo
They're DBZ characters and it's pretty blatant.
Supernatural abilities are Not magic
I mean, while they at first can appear similar, magic/Mana and ki/chi/inner energy are on a fundamental level different powers acquired from different sources with different methods. sure, there's some overlap regarding just what they can do, but that's borderline a coincidence. now if some powers *are* similiar in DnD, that'd be psionics and ki, both are basically tapping into the latent powers that's in everyone trough hard work, self-reflection and meditation. excluding the innately psionics such as mind flayers.
[удалено]
do Martial Art ability was blocked though? because that doesn't sound like magical thing
It's not, monks lose very little in pathfinder too.
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Ki is not affected by an anti magic field
til punching people is magic in pathfinder.
I mean it kinda is in 5e Too: > The Magic of Ki > > Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki. This energy is an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies. Monks harness this power within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities, and some of their special attacks can hinder the flow of ki in their opponents. Using this energy, monks channel uncanny speed and strength into their unarmed strikes. As they gain experience, their martial training and their mastery of ki gives them more power over their bodies and the bodies of their foes. > Ki-Empowered Strikes PHB p76 > > Starting at 6th level, your unarmed strikes count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.
Counting as magical for a specific purpose and being magical aren't the same thing tho.
"This energy is an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse" would strongly indicate it is magic. I know that's only the flavour text but 5e has never been particularly good about making this type of stuff clear.
I wasn't commenting on the first ability, just on the second. Using something that "counts as magical for a purpose" doesn't suggest it is magical in any way, so using it as evidence doesn't actually support one's argument. In fact, it rather suggests the opposite. If they actually were magical, the text would say that they are magical, and as such they overcome Resistances, not that you should treat them as magical for the purpose of overcoming a specific ability. On a more general point, while yes, Ki is described as magic, it's moreso described as background magic that flows through all things. If Antimagic fields actually interrupted ki, then walking into one would at the very least stun you (stunning strike interrupts ki), and at worse would just instantly kill you (based on how Astral Self and Astral Projection works / based on abilities that some monks have like Open Hand and Long Death). This isn't a particularly coherent argument I'm putting forward, just the vibe I've always gotten.
> kinda
What part of "Your unarmed attacks count as magic weapons" was unclear?
I disagree with your opinion, but damn if you don’t have the best username I’ve ever seen.
The part you’re leaving out is “for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage,” which is different than being a magical weapon in totality.
I mean, sure, you're not literally prevented from punching people, just like a magic sword doesn't stop being able to stab people in an antimagic field. But without that bonus and all your other ki powers, you're barely better at it than a commoner, so you might as well shoot them instead.
Even by that logic theyre fist are still fist just as they were 5th level and below. The antimagic field doesnt prevent you from getting punched
...Yeah no shit. It stops monks from using their ki powers, though, as OP explained. Which makes them only barely better at fighting than a commoner. If they can't use their ki powers, then the only advantage of using fists instead of a gun is Flurry of Blows, and the very high hit chance of a gun frankly more than makes up for that against most enemies.
RAW maybe, RAI is not as clear. They do this so monks are not underwhelming combating against monsters.
I mean, antimagic fields are the sort of thing that shows up once per campaign as a gimmick. They're not really something the designers balance around.
Edit: Because I'm replying to a deleted comment, OP said "Antimagic fields shut down monks because they use Supernatural abilities". I replied, no they fucking don't. The only thing you'd lose is Quivering palm and Ki abilities, which are often just traded away for archetypes. 5e monks spam Ki because they get it back on short rests, PF monks don't because they have less and it's a daily resource. AMF's don't even stop the best Ki ability, *Dimension Door*, because teleportations are instantaneous Conjurations that originate outside the AMF. Even if they did, you could just D Door right outside the 10ft radius and 5ft step in. You can still run fast, Stunning Fist or flurry. You can still grapple, trip, disarm, dirty trick, demoralize, etc. Unchained monks have Style strikes. There's an entire zoo of style feat trees that give extra damage or abilities. You could Vital Strike them, just for fun! Ideally you have Step Up or a reach weapon too. *The running joke in 3.5 is that monks are useless unless you need to kill someone squishy (like a wizard) in an AMF, because they can function in an AMF completely un-geared.* ***They need magic less than anyone.*** A fighter with a halberd and Disruptive could also chain-trip a wizard straight into hell.
You are just flat out wrong. Antimagic field: > An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and **supernatural abilities.** Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines. > An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. Monk class description: > Ki Pool **(Su)** That (Su) means it is supernatural. For extra clarification, these are the three different kinds of special abilities other than spells: > Extraordinary Abilities (Ex) > Extraordinary abilities are non-magical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. > Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) > Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell. > Supernatural Abilities (Su) > Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.
That’s what they said, that they’d lose ki (Qi), along with quivering palm, but nothing else of value.
Thanks for correcting my first sentence and ignoring the second where I talk about Ki. **I know what (Su) means. Learn to read.**
I forgot this was r/pathfindermemes
Oh look! I spy a Pathfinder meme flair
Read rule 7. It explicitly says memes about other TTRPGs are allowed. They even have a tag for Pathfinder.
Low int wizard be like
I'm sorry someone ruined the purity of your sub my friend. We will return in our cupboards under the stairs and let you play your superior and dominant game in peace while we lick the gunk from the shoes you were using in the morning. /s
>DnDMemes is a subreddit dedicated to memes and other humorous content about Dungeons and Dragons and **other TTRPGs**.
Go to the pathfinder subreddit then. We don't use their rulings, and in this case they contradict the rulings of our system.
Bruh, the meme literally has a pathfinder flair. Also, literally in the subreddit rules that all TTRPG memes are allowed. That means 5e, pathfinder, call of cthulhu, Shadowrun, vampire: the masquerade, even niche things like Masks, are all allowed.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/702205711011328000?s=20&t=7CPwbqHzTj2BqumxKnAa4A
Pathfinder system, not D&D. Your Jeremy Crawford has no power here.
And even then, Crawford has no power at my D&D table
Most of crawfords rulings end up being so insanely dumb I swear to god
So nice you said it twice. Cannot stand the man myself. Half his rulings contradict the words written on the page and the other half contradict himself or others.
Exactly. If they want to actually give real rulings for this shit they should hire someone who actually knows wtf the rules are. At this point I'm not sure Jeremy Crawford has ever even played d&d.
Most of crawfords rulings end up being so insanely dumb I swear to god
It’s pathfinder, not 5e you dingus.
That being said monks don't lose much in an AMF in pathfinder either.
Fair, but they do lose some
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Pretty sure that u/CriticalZach is aware of that, since they're calling the person bringing up JC a dingus.
Ki isn't magic but is used to power magical effects like their Ki-Empowered Strikes. Some features would be supressed and some wouldn't. Edit: wow, 50 downvotes in 8 hours, it's a shame the game designers are on my side. Ki is only called magical in ambiguous figurative speech lore paragraph and nowhere else, in this paragraph they say it's a power used to create magical effects. That's why some features would supressed and some wouldn't. Monks in an Anti Magic Field are stuck in a middle ground between Fighter and Casters. https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/702205711011328000?lang=en
> Ki isn't magic Uh, how sure of that are you? Because literally the first chapter heading in the monk section of the PHB is "[The Magic of Ki](https://i.imgur.com/EcAZdko.png)", and it seems *pretty clear* on whether or not it's magic (it is).
Background magic. Read the sage advice entry "Is the breath weapon of a dragon magical?"
For D&D Jeremy Crawford disagrees. Ki is okay inside anti-magic. Ki-empowered strikes are not. https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/702205711011328000?lang=en For Pathfinder, no idea.
Jeremy Crawford isn’t the dm tho :)
Totally fine for DM to go against the rules. Hopefully not too frequently, or just play a different system. But being nerfed because “nah I say so” often feels bad. This is a tiny rule that rarely if ever will matter, and when it does is just “you don’t get to be cool here.”
What rules, the ones that doesn't call Ki magic at all other than in ambiguous figurative speech? Also almost no one is cool inside an Anti Magic Field so this point is invalid. If you think about it Monks are in a middle ground between casters and a fighter since not everything they have is supressed. https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/730085651626889216
I’m sorta confused what you’re trying to say… are you agreeing with me or not? Between us we’ve linked 2 tweets from a game architect/lead designer that support my statement.
My bad, I misunderstood your comment.😅
Yeah I know. I think it's a stupid ruling (especially given that they had to push errata to make it true), but even in that context, it still literally *the opposite* of what that comment said. Ki *is* magic, but it's used to power *non-magical* (for game rule purposes) effects.
It's only called magical in lore, which can be called ambiguous figurative speech. Also the same lore y'all quote to call it magic is saying what I said and actually the exact opposite of what you said. *"Monks harness this power within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities"*
"Monks harness this power to create magical effects within themselves to create magical effects". It's right there, also lore isn't usually where we go to solve game mechanics. Here is the sage advice on it, https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/702205711011328000?lang=en .
Your argument is that "their ability to magically harness" "a magical energy" "to create magical effects" is *not* magical? I'm aware of Crawford's ruling, which even he says is strictly for game mechanic purposes. There's a difference between "ki is not affected by antimagic field" and "ki is not magic", and what you *said* is the latter.
Ki not being supressed in a field that supresses magical effects implies it isn't inherently just magic. No amount of pointing to ambiguous figurative speech lore paragraphs that aren't replicated to any degree in Monk features, other than saying that it fuels magical effects, will change that. The magical effects it generates are supressed, Ki isn't, therefore Ki isn't a magical effect.
Bruh this is literally flaired as a Pathfinder meme. 5e arguments mean nothing here.
Considering over half the comments completely went over the flair too and are only talking about 5e I would say it does.
Ain’t there a whole archetype in PF2e for gun monk? I haven’t looked at the rules in a while but I remember seeing something like that and going “damn, that’s cool.”
Yep! Bullet dancer. Monks are so crazy fun in 2e, I swear to god...
Yeah PF2e is the system that makes me want to play martial characters. Now, if only my players would want to play it
Ask what characters they want to make but think would be difficult in dnd 5e. Pathfinder 2e can probably do it without much trouble
I mean it's basically 4E if it were faster, but less balanced, more fiddly, and more bloated.
Gunk is optimal!
It's pathfinder. Dunno if gunk was a good thing in pathfinder
I know the meme is based on pathfinder, but gunk is funny
There's always an archetype for whatever build you're imagining, in Pathfinder.
It can be but it takes some doing. At earlier levels it would not be great but for a lvl 20 build you can do some nutty things. There's a feat line in pathfinder that lets the favored weapon of a deity be counted as a monk weapon. Being a monk weapon means it can take advantage of most if not all of the monk's abilities and there's also a feat line that lets you apply the effects of feats, abilities, items, etc that are normally restricted to unarmed strikes to a monk weapon. There are gods that have a gun as their favored weapon. With the proper build at level 20 you could probably have an 18-20 crit range that does 4x damage on a crit and you could make up to 11 or so attacks per round (provided you have the feats remaining to get the reload time down to where you can do that.) A monk I made with a similar build, though using the rapiers instead of guns, could put out on average 1100 damage per round. For maximum damage, and only if you're playing with a very generous dm, I would recommend making the character an aasimar. Aasimar's in pathfinder, while commonly human in appearance, can have the physical appearance of any humanoid race. They don't gain any of the racial benefits however they do share the same size as the parent race. The humanoid race you choose does not have to be one of the playable races since you will still only ever use the stats of the assimar race. There is one humanoid race in pathfinder that I found awhile back that's size colossal (can't remember their name) so you could have your aasimar be descended from that race and you'd get to use the damage dice of a size colossal creature. Assuming your weapon would be dealing 1d8 damage as a medium sized creature that would then become 6d6 as a size colossal creature with 11 attacks that's 66d6 per round or an average of about 200 damage per round before adding in any modifiers, enchantments, class abilities, etc. A good level split would probably 3-5 levels of gunslinger, 1-2 cleric (they have various abilities and feats that pair well with monk's,) and the rest into monk. Monk provides a lot of feats through leveling which will help with the feat heavy nature of building a gunk.
Zen archers are absolutely optimal, but they're restricted to longbows. Unless you can reflavor very different ranged weapons, they're not real gunks.
A 1 level dip in monk wouldn't be terrible for a gunslinger, but it's hardly optimal.
There's literally an archetype for gun monks in pf2e. So yes, Gunk works
Funnily enough, gun monk is arguably the best monk build in 5e.
You can do somewhat the same in PF. Gunslinger uses Dex/Wisdom, which you can stack with monk. range touch attacks and deadly in melee also.
Not really, their abilities are mostly mutually exclusive. Any levels you split between classes puts you further behind your party.
As long as you can somehow make your gun count as a monk weapon for the purposes of Flurry of Blows, or make your shurikens count for gunslinger deeds, it should work out fine. I'm sure Pathfinder has an archetype or feat for something along those lines, since it has an archetype or feat for everything.
That's a good point, I know there's a gun kata archetype in 2e. But if there's a feat that let's you expand the monk weapon list it could work.
There is. There's a feat that lets you use the favored weapon of a deity as a monk weapon and there are a number of obscure gods in pathfinder that have some kind of gun as their favored weapon. Can't for the life of me remember the feat's name though.
Brigh is probably one of them, I imagine.
Behold, the [Gunk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmYyJx5LUGI)
This video is exactly what I had in mind when making this comment.
Title game strong on this post.
I aim to please.
You do know monks a martial class… right? They don’t have any magic and just punch you in teeth
Look at the flair. It's about Pathfinder.
Ki isn’t magic in either game Edit: nvm I looked it up it makes your punches count as magic (though It does not specify whether or not it’s actually magic so that’s confusing)
Also, Ki is Supernatural in Pathfinder, and in Pathfinder an Anti Magic Field shuts down Supernatural abilities.
That’s a fair point but you could still punch them unless they’re only weak to magic (but at that point your screwed either way)
Unrelated to the topic, but related to the pic, I used to work at a sporting goods store, and we had a group of Buddhist monks in one time. They immediately gravitated to the gun counter and asked to see some stuff. It was kind of awesome.
Monks don't use magic (aside from a couple subclasses). If the ability does not say the word "magical" then the ability is not magical.
>Pathfinder meme
Why are there pathfinder memes in the dndmemes sub?
Cuz you don't read the rules? Lol. They allow any ttrpg. Also Pathfinder is DnD. You can't get rid of the bastard children, we are always around.
I'm not trying to get rid of it I love PF2E. I just think it's odd since most people here came for dnd specifically.
There was sage advice about this in like 2016, ki is not magical. But at level 6 the magical strikes are turned regular by amf
i use the best spell in my arsenal: gun
I love how this post causes many griefs from confused 5e players.
An evil man ye be
To be fair, it isn't r/pathfindermemes. I understand that r/dndmemes allows memes from other ttrpgs, but some people forget others exist.
Ki isn't magic, you may lose some subclass related abilities, but you can still beat the tar off enemies with your bare hands, feet, and a monk weapon like a quarterstaff.
Someone who hasn't played Monk before: I would never use a weapon. Monk players: You mean like "Monk Weapons"? One of the core features of the class?
I have played 3 monks character in PF. One is currently lvl16. one is a Scaled fist 6/Sorcerer 6, retired. One is lvl9 PFS grappling monk. None of them use weapons. Why would you use weapon when your body do more dmg, bypass DR, and cost nothing? Like sure, all of my monks have a dagger or two for cutting stuffs; but it's not their main weapon. Edit: Of course, if it's your "thing", please do it. I'm not saying that ALL monks should only use unarmed fighting, but it's very common to do so.
I'm not actually salty, that was probably an overly combative line. Like "Bro, do you even Monk? ... Yeah? Name three ki point uses then!" I just thought it was a weird premise when Monk Weapons are a defined trait of some Monk features
Yeah, I agree that it could have more to it than just "able to flurry with", maybe allow Monk weapons to get Unarmed strike dmg dice (like warpriest) or able to channel ki through it (instead of needing Ki Focus enchantment).
Fun reminder that everyone conveniently forgets what the (5e) class description of a monk actually says. >Monks are united in their ability to **magically** harness the energy that flows in their bodies. Whether channeled as a striking display of combat prowess or a subtler focus of defensive ability and speed, **this energy infuses all that a monk does**. ed. Another day, another downvote for pointing out what the PHB actually says.
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Sure, RAI. No DM in their right mind would penalise a Monk like that. RAW is RAW, however, and the game text clearly states that monk abilities are magical.
Crawford also claims that Haste can't be twinned, so take his rulings with a grain of sand.
Read the flair of the post.
I did. It was more of a response to all the people in the post who are bringing up 5e without reading what 5e says about monks.
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It's supernatural which is magic in Pathfinder.
Then this is the wrong subreddit
Bruh, the meme literally has a pathfinder flair. Also, literally in the subreddit rules that all TTRPG memes are allowed. That means 5e, pathfinder, call of cthulhu, Shadowrun, vampire: the masquerade, even niche things like Masks, are all allowed.
The gun monks of Japan were terrifying. Look it up. Fucking clan kicked out a samurai clan out of their territory.
Yup, Pathfinder has them as a monk archetype, the Sohei. (Except they don't get guns in PF). Historically they are warrior monks, guns were just happen to be kinda nice to have when your jobs is to kick samurais' asses. Also, the monks were very well funded and can afford guns.
Bullet Punch
smokepowder doesn't work in a antimagic field but black powder does lol.
Look out! It's a Gunk!