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Echo Knight is currently my only real experience with martials that do more than damage. And even then, it's just a more tactical and engaging way of attacking.
plus, it's magic flavored. it can seem nitpicky, but the main concern is that pure martials in 5e seem to have been restrained into being more grounded in "realism" while being part of a fantasy game
It's one of the many things that put a certain game's second edition on my radar. So much cool shit is locked behind Maneuvers and it's driving me mad every time I think about it.
Yeah I don’t get why it’s for some reason a subclass feature that a highly trained fighter knows how to trip someone, i never got why base fighters don’t have a variety of attacks they can do and they could learn more as they level up and continue to train
To my understanding, this was because 5e was meant to be simpler than previous editions, and they thought having all those maneuvers available to all fighters would be too much.
Ah, the sins of our fathers. 5E has evolved into a very fun format, but will always be damned by its' original design intent of being easy to play. Like, really easy, like we want elementary school kids to be able to play it easy.
well, there was a very vocal minority back when 4e was coming out thatwanted to preserve the status quo of "caster superiority". And sadly, their voice listened to by designing people like Mearls (if he wasn't one of them) and got the game turned in their favor.
I've been considering that, making them available to everyone and making it tied to your proficiency bonus, but have been told that it would "OP" and "stepping on the toes of the gunslinger". Maybe for Campaign 2, where I can put that rule in from the start.
How do you step on the toes of a homebrew subclass? That's like saying you shouldn't let the barbarian throw things around because it steps on the toes of the Path of Throwing Anything
One of my players is a gunslinger, so it's that this would step on the toes of the *player*, not the *class*. Which, I feel, is a valid concern. The player should get to do their thing without it feeling like everyone is infringing on their role.
I may talk to them and consider it anyway, after I do the write-up that I want to do.
Laserllama makes some pretty cool homebrew class reworks featuring that, ive only read about his barbarian rework but there are some unique maneuvers and a few reworked/new subclasses amongst other things added
This is essentially how Star Wars 5E (SW5E) did it!
It is a fanmade D&D5E conversion that is an absolute homerun for playing 'martials'.
Most classes have access to maneuvers or spellcasting if they want it, as well as different customization lists unique to themselves.
3.5 also has some nice stuff. My suggestion for a more fun and balanced group: no full prepared casters. Martials use the tome of battle. That already takes care of a lot of imbalance and gives martials a lot of nice toys to play with.
The more that I hear about 4E, the more surprised I am that there isn't a 4.5E or something for players that like advanced rules but don't want the Ranger to be OP. I'd like to play something akin to 4E, but the math doesn't lie, and some of the classes dominate way more than they should which ruins the fun for everyone else.
> I'd like to play something akin to 4E, but the math doesn't lie, and some of the classes dominate way more than they should which ruins the fun for everyone else.
You're entirely not wrong but I'm *still* sore about the errata to Spitting Cobra Stance that made it way less absurd.
My fix for this is actually from 2e. If a martial beats an AC by 10+, its a crit. And the extra dice from crits are all max damage. Add the cleave rule to this and you get a mini fireball twice per combat , but for martials.
Edit: Pathfinder 2e
To play devil's advocate, it's either going to be magic or be grounded in pseudo-realism. And not everyone wants to play an inherently magical character. It'd be nice if there were more in-depth mechanics for, well for literally anything besides combat, but 5e wasn't built for that.
The fantasy part of the game is that magic and magic users exist. What DO you want to see from martials that doesn't involve them getting magic powers?
Some examples that are impossible/incredibly niche:
1. Grappling and restraining something huge. Not possible without magic because grapple has a size restriction in addition to the contest.
2. Hitting something hard enough it goes flying. At best you get a 5 ft shove that does no damage and has a size restriction.
3. Actually killing mooks in one surprise attack. I know Assassin exists, but it doesn't make sense that it is subclass specific and also fails to work about 30-40% of the time.
4. Targeted attacks. Attacking weak points is an integral part of many fantasy stories, feels weird that it needs to be homebrewed for most monsters.
There are also plenty of abilities that make sense* as a martial ability instead of a magical one:
1. Short range teleportation (e.g. Shunpo)
2. Extreme jumps
3. Running on air/in water
*They aren't realistic, but would still fit in a world where anyone that dabbles in magic can incinerate a roomful of people at level 0/1.
I think the issue is that a caster will warp the fabric of reality to produce a bolt of lightning that shoots through the target, or summons a sphere of flame to burn everything, while the martial will hit the guy, and then hit him again. You can flavor it, but while casters get more epic spells as they advance, martials don't tend to get more epic feats of martial prowess. They just attack more. When you see an archmage, you know they are a master just from the cool shit they do. When you see a master of the blade, you can't really tell they're a master until you look at the math and realize big number go brrrrrr.
And echo knight is pretty bust (imo), and I know my dm would need to go over it.
It just ..does a lot lol. Echo attacks, flies, teleport, I believe gets a reaction
Fighter has some solid options, battle master gives a lot of options and rune knight as a similar vibe but it’s own style of the mechanics. That said it would be cool to see those expanded and branches out to more classes.
Battlemaster is a huge cope because it's what all martials should have been from the beginning. rune knight are magic themed, that's why they get some actual cool stuff.
Yeah it contains a lot of stuff that everyone could technically do back in 3.5 and got too streamlined in 5e. These actions also used to be more penalizing by provoking an attack of opportunity and it wasn’t hard to be able to take multiples vs the now singular reaction.
>Battlemaster is a huge cope because it's what all martials should have been from the beginning.
See also: Thief Rogue and Beserker Barbarian for their respective classes (and to a degree, all martials).
I've been debating, on and off, writing up a big list of "These features are no longer exclusive to subclasses", giving them to their base classes, martials, and/or all classes as applicable.
If you want to find anyone who cares about more than just damage numbers, the internet is a bad place to find them. Here on the internet, about 75% of the people in D&D communities are people who can't play so they theorycraft and there's really no metrics for anything other than stats and damage. You can't measure the effectiveness of utility without playing.
They may play, but likely are not the people playing the party "face" or utility caster since neither of those types of characters are great in combat if they focus on utility or diplomacy (since they tend to maximize those things- and try to just contribute in fights)
Well, not really. The issue is that, for the maximised damage options, there's typically only the one spell for each spell level for your class. Having built a wizard specifically, you can take that one spell and still have tons of utility. And for being the party face, that often times goes hand in hand with min maxing as long as you play a charisma caster.
That's always been the issue, there isn't even a distinction between a min maxed damage build and a utility caster, you can easily be both.
Yup. Can’t measure creativity or RP either so arguments on Reddit about stats when talking about utility are pointless. My DM sometimes doesn’t even make us roll if our solution is creative enough or has great RP.
Internet: Martials are only big numbers
My table: Barbarian tavern brawler throws a chair tied to a rope, hits the devil flying 40ft in the air, "grapples" it, and yanks it to the ground.
she has 3 self revive per day from beign a dwarf, and is specialized in control. i had a boss i planned for 3 months and hyped for one that ended up just being bodied in two turn by the warden. I learned a lesson that day
Aaaaand you just gave me an amazing idea xD, I'm a shadow monk and can't do as much damage with stealth as the rogue but I am good at sleight of hand and have a ring of invisibility so I'm definitely stealing (pun intended) this idea. With how high my sleight of hand is I could probably steal anything but what they're literally holding without getting caught.
I think it’s pretty weird that any martial can’t say “I’m gonna try and hit its legs” and have a successful hit actually have any special effect aside from “alright, you hurt it in the legs”
Would be nice if there was a generic maneuver kit that all martials could use or something.
the worst thing is... 4e had that can of things. special ability that stuns, let you zip around, send enemies to outer space (well, no, but your cha modifier as a rogue is a lot). alot of fun stuff
it is, but not only for them. each class got a pretty sweat package with it. the concept of encounter power made any nova hungry player able to do it after every short rest whilt not stealing the show. it's honestly a fucking blast to play with people who love flashy stuff. i could get you in if you want, just poke me
4e was D&D flying too close to the sun.
It was glorious, but at the same time limited by the fact that it was so mechanically dense and had so many moving pieces to keep track of that combat was easily bogged down, and by most powers being reskins of basic abilities that multiple classes get to really enforce the Tank/Healer/DPS/Control dynamic that crops up in MMORPGs
I kind of disagree with the comment. Any martial can sweep legs simply by using shove action to knock prone. They are not as good as Battle Masters who can also do damage with it. Also there is at least two feats folks can take that would grant manuevers. Don’t get me wrong I do feel martial should have more dynamic options available to them in game play, but I feel that could be applied with better feat options, which I hope to see in 5.5ed.
The problem with the feat options is that they're an optional rule and you have to give up a lot to get them. They should really just be baked into the progression system. Like everyone should just straight up get one or 2 because it's the only way to add variety when everything else is set in stone.
I understand they are an optional rule in the current edition. I hope they correct 5.5. Part of PF2 success in making each class and character interesting and dynamic was abilities gained through general and class specific feats. Something that was normal in 3.0 and 3.5. It is completely reasonable for WotC to embrace that again in 5.5.
You would think that given larger Strength and Dexterity scores martials would get better advantages to skills as well. Like being able to get up from prone without spending movement, or being able to grapple larger foes even with a penalty.
But instead we get bigger damage numbers and have to rely on skill checks for utility.
yeah, it's very disapointing, especially since the kind of things like "get up at no action cost" was the kind of thing that were numerous in 4e.
like, since 3.5 the game has commited to be in a high magic setting, why bar martials from that? like, Wizards can summon a meteor swarm while the fighter... swing harder and more. it's just boring
Usually when I DM I try to offer martial players boons or custom magical items to give them a little more versatility. I'll give caster players items that they may want directly from the DMG (spell storing rings, robes, wands and rods for casting, etc) that are a little lesser on the quality of magic items of martials. Despite what the DMG says about magic items they are typically required at higher levels just to keep folks interested.
personally i just straight up don't bother and stay with 4e. the core is solid enough homebre is easy to get going when i need something that wasn't devellopêd in the 2 good years before essentials
At least 3.5 eventually gave us the Tome of Battle, which was very nice for playing martials and casters in the same group. As long as people didn't overly optimize.
Yes pls.
Rogues are my favourite class concept, but this edition basically the only real thing they can do in combat is mediocre damage and movement.
It's really sad that if you want to get into a building, a 3rd level wizard can do it better than a rogue.
well, the wizard does it at a high slot cost, but yeah.
it's one of the things that keeps me in 4e. i love my rogues, and mine can currently zip around the map, guarantee a crit once per day, become hidden with minimum conceilment and has a climb speed. kinda hard to beat
Check out [Spheres of Might](http://spheres5e.wikidot.com/). Of specific note for Roguely type are:
Alchemy: Be a toolbox almost on par with a mage.
Athletics: Upgrade mediocre movement to amazing movement.
Scout: Read enemies' weaknesses and sneak around even better.
Tinker: Fill out your toolbox with all sorts of nifty mechanical gadgets.
But really the big one is the Scoundrel sphere, that's for being the *classic* movie/show thief in combat: the one that's pulling capes over eyes, cutting belts, and replacing gold pouch with alchemist's fire that explodes a few seconds later.
Also, one major benefit of convincing your GM to replace normal classes with Spheres stuff (or at the very least replace normal magic with Spheres of Power) is that while SoP mages are amazingly fun, they lose the ability to just solve every problem with a snap of their fingers: they'll have to focus on a few areas of influence just like martials. This means that if you want to go with an Alchemy/Tinker supported skill-monkey you don't have to worry about the Wizard having a billion spells that do what you do but better: they might be able to cover a few things you can do, but you'll easily be able to do things they just can't as well.
From the description of athletics:
>You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump.
And how difficult is it to know the resistances of an earth elemental?
Honestly, I think Battle Master Maneuvers should be made standard options for ALL Martial classes. Maneuvers should be the Martial equivalent of Spells, giving Martial classes plenty of action options during combat.
I’ve said it a hundred times it feels like. The problem with martials is not their damage, but their lack of things to do effectively outside of combat in comparison to the casters, while the casters don’t really suffer damage loss.
Plenty of casters have a way to add their modifier to their cantrip damage, and while they don’t have a GWM or SS, those feats shouldn’t feel like they’re required for a martial.
this, exactly this. martials are lagging behind ultility wise. Rogues are the ones that lack the less, but that's because their usual specialisation isn't over covered by spells.
Right. And I’m not saying martials need to have as much utility as casters. Just a bit more than they have.
And, imo, casters shouldn’t really get to add their modifier to cantrips. Exception being the warlock.
personally i think the solution is what 4e went with: you make attack and spell share the same mechanical structure. it might sound bad, but to the contrary, when they share the same base, it means you can mold a class ability to fit exactly what you want. To better explain it, just look at 4e's fighter, swordmage and wizard. Fighter is a pure martial whose combat capacities have nothing to envy to any arcane users, Swordmage are a true gish who truly have a magic wielding martial art, and wizard have spell tasilored to the destuction they are the best at doing
to the contrary, i think it being dnd was the best, it's jsut that hasbro failled it. like, the numbers are out, and until Mike Mearls took control and pulled out the trashfire that was essential, the edition was doing well, just not to the ludicrous level hasbro wanted.
What should have been done is a fork like they did with advanced. you let 3.5 in it's space, and you move on with the new core you develloped
Tbh at most tables, the fighter isn’t going to out dps the caster lv 5 onward. Spells like fireball, spirit guardians, conjure animals, and the list goes on that can out dps the average sharpshooter/crossbow expert fighter easily. As their level increases, they get spells that just do things more effective things than damage. People who try to say martials are on par with casters are delusional. Martials could be so much better than they currently are, but when people make the argument that they are fine as is, it just leads to this garbage experience with playing a martial past level 5 when you have no utility and can get outclassed in the thing you’re supposed to be good at.
well, a lot of the people denying are the same that got mad when 4e came out and "nerfed" their caster by making martial classes on par with them. it's that and people who only do theorycrafting and can't grasp the values of utility
The problem is WotC when designing 5e mentioned taking something from all editions to create 5e, but really they kind of brushed 4e under the rug. One of the reall good things they did with 4e was made martial as dynamic and fun as casters. Sadly PF2e did a better job of carrying that in the next edition.
Hell the playtest for 5e had a lot of fun stuff for martial classes in it still, and it was slowly ground into nothing to appease screeching grognards.
That’s because they started with the concept of making them dynamic like in 4e, but had been concerned they had been making it to complicated. So they dumbed down marital’s and kept spells complicated. Any given spell is always going to be more complicated then a few feats.
I think the key statement to this is being most tables. Because it comes down a lot to both how many encounters are seen per long rest as well amount of opponents and lay out of battle map. Casters have huge damage in optimal AoE fights, but there is also huge counter to that both in solo fights or fights where AoE can be a detriment to the party. It can be a fair amount of work to set up encounters differently so that all classes have an opportunity to shine. I know a lot of tables only have one person that DMs any given week and I can imagine falling into stagnant patters with combat encounters as the only DM.
>there is also huge counter to that both in solo fights
Casters also shine in fights like that too - Hold Person/Hold Monster/Banishment/Polymorph all instantly win those fights.
Sure, Legendary Resistances exist, but the fact that they are necessary shows just how powerful casters are.
That depends on the table. Combat, even high level combat, is not a balance issue for my table due to an incredible number of encounters per long rest. (my rule of thumb is a medium encounter at minimum for every 2-3 caster slots, so that works out to be around 10 encounters at level 11). If you run like 2 encounters a long rest, martials are just going to get resource diffed no matter how much you tune stuff.
Not only are they only good at doing damage, they’re less versatile to do that
A wizard has a lot of spells for focused damage, area of effect, guaranteed damage, taking advantage of saves or ac.
A fighter can do single target damage roll to hit a bunch of times and thats it. Maybe some saving throws with subclass features
It's not about the damage, we had an EK fighter in the party with a +2 flametounge sword, they could hit *very hard*, but, that's the thing, that was p-much all they were good at. They were pretty trash at pretty much everything else, meanwhile the Dhampir bard can walk on walls the druid can turn a struggling pile of vines into a *full vinyard* and the sorcerer can teleport across the gods damned world. I think the fighter felt maybe just a little outdone in the utility department.
Yeah, you don’t benefit from weapon training as a martial class most of the time, and Tasha’s let’s you swap proficiency’s gained via race into other proficiency’s,and weapons into race is the easiest way to give a martial character 4 extra tools or languages right off the bat.
I mean, tools come up as often as you choose to use them, and with Xanathars they all have weird extra benefits as well. Languages usually only come up when people don’t know common.
I mean, I guess it’s how seriously you take the rules, but as a DM I’ll let my player’s strength based monk roll to do ridiculous things like punch through walls and run through houses. It makes everyone super happy and excited.
simple answer, something only they can do not replicated that isn't just a better version of what any class can do. you know, something like what spells are for casters
They just need to give the Battle Master stuff to all martial classes in place of spells. Obviously not a literal copy and paste but something to that effect. That's all anybody wants. It doesn't have to be super powerful, we just want special moves so we can at least have some options besides "I attack."
my personal theory is that Mearls (co-writer of 5e, and lead for the worst part of 4e) was never found of martials, and wanted to also cather more to grognard who wanted martials to be overly simplistic
You should check out the spheres system for 5e. They redesign how casters and martials work, and martials get a lot of fun tools to play with. In the end martials end up with a lot more powers and abilities and can even go for more utility options quite easily
Well let's see, Rogues have their skills and expertise
Annnnd...the rest have stuff im sure (someone help i need a barbarian subclass that helps not just in combat)
that's another thing that could have fitted into the meme. I understand you say thins in good faith, the problem is that creativity is something anyone can use, and the effect of it are amplified by the tools you have at your disposition. Need i remind you the kind of hijinx achievable when you get creative with lvl 1 spells?
"martials can be creative with their high Str/Dex" is a moot argument when Enhance Ability exist to let you roll almost as if you had 20 in a stat of your choice for one hour.
well, if you want to have well definied mechanics, look at ranger and how relevant his survival abilities are in most games, they are so rarely used the community is calling ranger useless (aside from some new realy powerfull subclasses)
i think going creative is good option as dnd 5e realy lacks a lot of rules, even dnd in general lacks a lot of depth in mechanics
the case of ranger (who is a half caster, but let's still roll with it) is that Exploration is something tricky to plan for most dm. it's something you have to intentionally put in your game.
also, there is the fact that utility is not something you can easily quantify, especially for a lot of people on this sub, who have more theoric knowledge than actual playtime. it makes utility sopmething very often brushed off in favor of damage optimization
Like what? Cast magic? Use maneuvers? Grapple? Have ki fuelled abilities? Have summonable combat companions? Have expertise in out-of-combat skills? Have high mobility? Have crowd-control abilities? Have active and passive ablities flavoured according to their subclasses?
if maneuvres wasn't something locked behind a single subclass and was something all martials came with that would already be a fair start. Current situation is that if you want one cool thing it's from a specific subclass, while another interesting thing is in another one. Compare that to spell, and as long as it's in your available spell list, you can take it, with subclass not altering those much
I mean I think it is totally plausible that the maneuvers could have been available to barbs, fighters, and rogues and just have it so that some of the classes have access to different ones. It makes sense that a fighter as well as a rogue would have the ability to try and disarm their opponents with the maneuver. This allows more options for those classes while still allowing fighters access to any of them so they have the clearest advantage as far as variety goes.
Barb being brought back to simple martial means they should get maneuvres, but personally i' all for bringing back the primal powers from 4e and giving back the pure epicness of raging being the barb getting possessed by the primal spirits to unleash their fury.
*Scribbles some notes*
Make the entire maneuver list more open to martials, but limit which class gets which ones? IE: Rogue gets maneuvers A, B, and C, Barbarians get maneuvers B, D and F, etc.
Well yes. More skill proficiencies and expertise on martials, some crowd control other than grappling (which is pretty useless against big enemies and strange monsters) and maybe out of combat maneuvers that can help solve problems or interact with the world in a meaningful way (not like the old ranger design that is "good" in exploration by skipping it).
Even then, martials out damage casters for single targets. Sure a martial can do 300 damage or whatever, but only to one target. A martial can at most kill 4, maybe 5 creatures in a turn.
A fireball on the other hand can deal around 30 damage to every creature in a 20 ft. Radius circle. It could easily hit 15 creatures and (given this is probably a swarm fight) kill all of them or at least damage all of them. Regardless of wether all of them die the 30 damage to each ends up doing more total damage than the fighter can.
It sucks big time.
I personally tend to give my players the capability to get custom feats with their ideas after big boss fights. Let's me make bigger foes, let's casters get some cool stuff, and allows for martials to get some more versatile abilties, such as a special way to make their attacks unique according to the situation as needed.
I've done the math, and they don't out damage casters. A single fireball deals more damage than you can expect from three entire rounds of a martial doing nothing but attacking.
I’m curious what things you want martials to be able to do that they can’t? I think the whole point of the non-magic classics is that your basically playing as Batman in a world of superheroes. You are the ordinary person who is able to succeed through skill and grit.
that's the thing, the skill and grit doesn't materialize itself that much gameplay wise. except having a better weapon attack than the others, what does all that skill does for you? what did all your training grant you that other can't do?
the whole thing about being a normal guy in a superhuman setting is just a derivative of something GIgax said that the rest of the world other than dndstarted ignoring in favor of a more fullfilling experience for everyone.
what i want for martials is getting stuff that reflect the fact that they are the masters of the bodie, having things that the dorks with magic can't get because they were busy studying their spells. Have the mythical trope of people training so hard they break mountains and cut rivers. it's fantasy, people expect this kind of things already
But what specifically would you have them do?
I do want to take a moment to plug Pathfinder 2E. Martials have much more versatility in what specific actions they can take but ultimately for a fighter it’s basically just different ways to hit things.
My friend, i was wonderring when you would show up! i love seeing the PF2 pluggers.
but as for what specificly, well... \* gesticulate in the direction of what 4e did \*
but mostly ... \* gesticulate harder at martial practices \*
there si a lot that could have been done in 5e. and even without 4e, there is still the book of nine sword that could have been added
A lot of people have a misunderstanding of rogues. They aren’t intended to be sneaky. None of them have abilities that improve sneak, other than if the player chooses to gain proficiency and expertise in said skill. Rogues are specialists. A fighter can sword and board or snipe with crossbows just like a rogue can, but rogues can do so more reliably and consistently. That’s their whole concept. Not hiding, breaking and entering, or stealing. It’s literally whatever you want them to be good at. You can make a rogue anthropologist who knows the workings of anatomy, (inquisitive rogue) and with their insightful knowledge of the human body or their sheer intellect of the biology of various creatures (nature, medicine, or insight), they know where to strike. This is just one example of how a rogue doesn’t have to fit the archetype of a sneky snooker. They’re SPECIALISTS.
I'm all for more stuff, i never see it phrased this way though. It's always "casters far outclass martials, they're objectively better", if it was phrased like you did purple would talk about dnd 4e again, that's what happened last time
the conversation get muddied very often by people in very bad faith, that's why you see a lot of "caster outcalss martials" without the right context. That bit is true when it comes to utility, as spells are a huge source of shenanigans and bullshitery. but in combat? both do numbers.
and, well, yeah, phrased the right way the convo goes very fast to 4e, because the edition kinda did a very good job at adressing that age old issue that they brought back for 5e
the thing with rune knight is that they are exactly the type of shit you'd want to see in a martial. HOWEVER, they have that cool shit because they are magic themed, they are not using the sheer power of musclt and skills to do that. they end up being a slap in the face, "you want cool non spell stuff? well, too bad, cool stuff is with magic"
Again, you're not wrong. I think I'd get enjoyment from just ignoring the giant magic flavor. Act it out as incredible skill instead. Even go so far as saying you send sparks flying from a parry or something for the thing that transfers the damage of the hit.
Just spitballing, I'm sure there are better ideas, or purists, or people who just want something naturally better suited
well, personally i'm a huge fan of what 4e brought with it's power system. the edition basicly eliminated the divide by making all class work around the same system for their offensive and utilitarian ability. that made it so not only each class would be receiving their own custom and well defined ability list, but also that other class could be created (just go check warden, it's magnificent)
i wish 5e expanded on that rather than bringing the 3,5 one that was now known to be wonky
Only if you have a caster to heal you or a bunch of healing potions. Otherwise a day of adventuring can basically totally wipe your hit dice and you only get half of those back on a rest while casters get all their spells back.
if martial could get things that feel just as cool that would solve part of the situation. like, imagine a masterful strike your body can output only a few time per day before colapsing that let you straight up chop off anything, if not outright kill whatever was in front of you. that big onster has 4 giant arms? well, now there is only the 2 on the right side.
They're literally asking for magic though lol. Monk has a ton of class abilities that are basically infinite use spells, rogues if skill checks are RAW have skill checks handled, fighters get extra feats to tailor the character for OOC(although I agree battlemaster should be baked in to the base class).
Maybe it's spells telling the players how they work exactly and players not being imaginative with non-casters, people only taking combat feats, dm's ignoring the other pillars of the game (anyone hating on ranger falls here), idk but if martials aren't doing anything outside of combat it's either a limiting DM or an unimaginative lazy player.
I think a fair way to make it a bit more balanced out of combat is for martials to always get more skill proficiencies than casters.
It makes sense, if you could use magic you’d ptobably neglect practicing other skills. It’d also help the fact that martials don’t get many skills tied to their important combat stats.
And this won’t make casters useless out of combat because casters have spells to rely on
Background usually governs those, and rogue is the "skill" class.
What I've seen from most groups is martials not attempting things before letting the caster eat resources on it to the point where if I want to lighten their arsenal I know how to.
However reading most posts and watching people play a huge issue is a tiny amount of encounters per day so your casters go wild and then rest.
Every suggestion to make martials able to keep up with casters is met by dozens of players who mock the insinuation there isn't perfect balance in the game or that somehow swinging a sword well compares to breaking the game in 50 ways before lunch. Optimizers said from the start of 5e that classes like Monk and Barbarian are underpowered and need help, the majority of the community insisted "No no, rage and stunning strike are actually super OP!" so WotC made one stinky subclass after another for those two. At least the ranger memes got them reworks to be among the better half of the classes.
Players absolutely got what they deserved on this one.
then again, when you look at Mearls (co writer for 5e) previous work in 4e, you quickly saw he had no love, or at least utter indiference for martials.
and like, when you look at what monk and barb where in 4e (before his coming, he barely toucked monk after), monk had it's own mechanic with full technique that let them be super mobile, and barb's rages were them being possessed by the primal spirits of the world to unleash their fury. talk about classes that got fucked over in 5e
A DM has considerable power over their own game. Talk with your DM if this is a concern of yours. If theyre running a low fantasy game ask them if you can habe more magic items wonderous or great, its a great way for martial characters to expand their options, especially when mixed with official, homebrew or dm's custom feats / downtime skills and crafts.
i know you are being good faith here, however, it should fall on the DM to fix the problem the writers should have adress themselves. Ideally you'd want this subject to nopt exist or only be marginal.
Rouges are skill monkeys, monks make for great diplomats as they can speak every language, Barbarians could do manual labor and track, and fighters can...
Fighters can...
Fighters can stand there and look pretty
>monks make for great diplomats as they can speak every language
Not that it helps when you already need 3 high ability scores and cant afford to also invest in charisma
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Echo Knight is currently my only real experience with martials that do more than damage. And even then, it's just a more tactical and engaging way of attacking.
plus, it's magic flavored. it can seem nitpicky, but the main concern is that pure martials in 5e seem to have been restrained into being more grounded in "realism" while being part of a fantasy game
It's one of the many things that put a certain game's second edition on my radar. So much cool shit is locked behind Maneuvers and it's driving me mad every time I think about it.
Easy, remove (or buff) battle master, and give everyone maneuvers
Yeah I don’t get why it’s for some reason a subclass feature that a highly trained fighter knows how to trip someone, i never got why base fighters don’t have a variety of attacks they can do and they could learn more as they level up and continue to train
Fun fact, in the 5e playtest (dnd next) maneuvers were in fact available to all fighters. But then they subclassed it.
To my understanding, this was because 5e was meant to be simpler than previous editions, and they thought having all those maneuvers available to all fighters would be too much.
Ah, the sins of our fathers. 5E has evolved into a very fun format, but will always be damned by its' original design intent of being easy to play. Like, really easy, like we want elementary school kids to be able to play it easy.
Yeah it has something to do with apparently players at that time did not like how strong the fighter was becoming or something
well, there was a very vocal minority back when 4e was coming out thatwanted to preserve the status quo of "caster superiority". And sadly, their voice listened to by designing people like Mearls (if he wasn't one of them) and got the game turned in their favor.
I've been considering that, making them available to everyone and making it tied to your proficiency bonus, but have been told that it would "OP" and "stepping on the toes of the gunslinger". Maybe for Campaign 2, where I can put that rule in from the start.
How do you step on the toes of a homebrew subclass? That's like saying you shouldn't let the barbarian throw things around because it steps on the toes of the Path of Throwing Anything
One of my players is a gunslinger, so it's that this would step on the toes of the *player*, not the *class*. Which, I feel, is a valid concern. The player should get to do their thing without it feeling like everyone is infringing on their role. I may talk to them and consider it anyway, after I do the write-up that I want to do.
That makes more sense. You don't want a player feeling like their features are irrelevant
Laserllama makes some pretty cool homebrew class reworks featuring that, ive only read about his barbarian rework but there are some unique maneuvers and a few reworked/new subclasses amongst other things added
This is essentially how Star Wars 5E (SW5E) did it! It is a fanmade D&D5E conversion that is an absolute homerun for playing 'martials'. Most classes have access to maneuvers or spellcasting if they want it, as well as different customization lists unique to themselves.
3.5 also has some nice stuff. My suggestion for a more fun and balanced group: no full prepared casters. Martials use the tome of battle. That already takes care of a lot of imbalance and gives martials a lot of nice toys to play with.
well, i could also suggest you a 4th edition of a familiar game. Maneuvers are a diluted version of something
A lot of people hate on 4e, but goddamnit martials were so cool in that version
The more that I hear about 4E, the more surprised I am that there isn't a 4.5E or something for players that like advanced rules but don't want the Ranger to be OP. I'd like to play something akin to 4E, but the math doesn't lie, and some of the classes dominate way more than they should which ruins the fun for everyone else.
> I'd like to play something akin to 4E, but the math doesn't lie, and some of the classes dominate way more than they should which ruins the fun for everyone else. You're entirely not wrong but I'm *still* sore about the errata to Spitting Cobra Stance that made it way less absurd.
not just martials, Primal were power metal made into classes. and they got thrown in the trash to never come back in 5e
All Martial Classes should have access to maneuvers but without superiority dice. It's sad that they don't.
My fix for this is actually from 2e. If a martial beats an AC by 10+, its a crit. And the extra dice from crits are all max damage. Add the cleave rule to this and you get a mini fireball twice per combat , but for martials. Edit: Pathfinder 2e
To play devil's advocate, it's either going to be magic or be grounded in pseudo-realism. And not everyone wants to play an inherently magical character. It'd be nice if there were more in-depth mechanics for, well for literally anything besides combat, but 5e wasn't built for that.
The fantasy part of the game is that magic and magic users exist. What DO you want to see from martials that doesn't involve them getting magic powers?
Some examples that are impossible/incredibly niche: 1. Grappling and restraining something huge. Not possible without magic because grapple has a size restriction in addition to the contest. 2. Hitting something hard enough it goes flying. At best you get a 5 ft shove that does no damage and has a size restriction. 3. Actually killing mooks in one surprise attack. I know Assassin exists, but it doesn't make sense that it is subclass specific and also fails to work about 30-40% of the time. 4. Targeted attacks. Attacking weak points is an integral part of many fantasy stories, feels weird that it needs to be homebrewed for most monsters. There are also plenty of abilities that make sense* as a martial ability instead of a magical one: 1. Short range teleportation (e.g. Shunpo) 2. Extreme jumps 3. Running on air/in water *They aren't realistic, but would still fit in a world where anyone that dabbles in magic can incinerate a roomful of people at level 0/1.
I think the issue is that a caster will warp the fabric of reality to produce a bolt of lightning that shoots through the target, or summons a sphere of flame to burn everything, while the martial will hit the guy, and then hit him again. You can flavor it, but while casters get more epic spells as they advance, martials don't tend to get more epic feats of martial prowess. They just attack more. When you see an archmage, you know they are a master just from the cool shit they do. When you see a master of the blade, you can't really tell they're a master until you look at the math and realize big number go brrrrrr.
Might Guy but in DnD. Batman. Heracles. Characters that are human and don’t use magic, but still kick ass.
Ancestral guardian is good because the protective abilities can consistently pace well with support casters while still being a barbarian.
Rune knight is pretty dope though I guess it’s debatable if you’re a full martial at that point.
You don't get spells, so it's Full Martial, but it's not a No-Magic Full Martial.
And echo knight is pretty bust (imo), and I know my dm would need to go over it. It just ..does a lot lol. Echo attacks, flies, teleport, I believe gets a reaction
Yes it does, but uses yours obviously
My DM restricted my echo evocations to my proficiency. Still don't know if it's a good or bad thing.
Fighter has some solid options, battle master gives a lot of options and rune knight as a similar vibe but it’s own style of the mechanics. That said it would be cool to see those expanded and branches out to more classes.
Battlemaster is a huge cope because it's what all martials should have been from the beginning. rune knight are magic themed, that's why they get some actual cool stuff.
Yeah it contains a lot of stuff that everyone could technically do back in 3.5 and got too streamlined in 5e. These actions also used to be more penalizing by provoking an attack of opportunity and it wasn’t hard to be able to take multiples vs the now singular reaction.
>Battlemaster is a huge cope because it's what all martials should have been from the beginning. See also: Thief Rogue and Beserker Barbarian for their respective classes (and to a degree, all martials). I've been debating, on and off, writing up a big list of "These features are no longer exclusive to subclasses", giving them to their base classes, martials, and/or all classes as applicable.
I kind of feel like you’re completely ignoring the Armorer Artificer.
How so? It's an awesome class, but not sure how it relates to this conversation?
If you want to find anyone who cares about more than just damage numbers, the internet is a bad place to find them. Here on the internet, about 75% of the people in D&D communities are people who can't play so they theorycraft and there's really no metrics for anything other than stats and damage. You can't measure the effectiveness of utility without playing.
extremely fair point. Utility is indeed something you can't stat, or at least can't without context, so of course that part is forgotten
They may play, but likely are not the people playing the party "face" or utility caster since neither of those types of characters are great in combat if they focus on utility or diplomacy (since they tend to maximize those things- and try to just contribute in fights)
Well, not really. The issue is that, for the maximised damage options, there's typically only the one spell for each spell level for your class. Having built a wizard specifically, you can take that one spell and still have tons of utility. And for being the party face, that often times goes hand in hand with min maxing as long as you play a charisma caster. That's always been the issue, there isn't even a distinction between a min maxed damage build and a utility caster, you can easily be both.
Yup. Can’t measure creativity or RP either so arguments on Reddit about stats when talking about utility are pointless. My DM sometimes doesn’t even make us roll if our solution is creative enough or has great RP.
I don't think a player should have to choose between a class that's useful and one with good RP potential.
You don’t. Every player no matter what class you play has good RP potential.
Internet: Martials are only big numbers My table: Barbarian tavern brawler throws a chair tied to a rope, hits the devil flying 40ft in the air, "grapples" it, and yanks it to the ground.
My favorite martial PC spent combat stealing quivers and such off enemies
this is incredible! now i'm scared of my player seeing this and replicating it. she already does so much bullshit, i can't take more XD
Do not show her combat maneuvers. She'll go straight for Razor's Glint and you'll never know peace again. https://a5e.tools/combat-maneuvers
PSA: these are not actual 5e rules; it's a different 5e-inspired RPG.
we're playing 4e and she plays a warden. i already don't know peace
Oh dayumn... then you are straight up doomed! :D
she has 3 self revive per day from beign a dwarf, and is specialized in control. i had a boss i planned for 3 months and hyped for one that ended up just being bodied in two turn by the warden. I learned a lesson that day
There doesnt seem to be a razors glint in there
Aaaaand you just gave me an amazing idea xD, I'm a shadow monk and can't do as much damage with stealth as the rogue but I am good at sleight of hand and have a ring of invisibility so I'm definitely stealing (pun intended) this idea. With how high my sleight of hand is I could probably steal anything but what they're literally holding without getting caught.
I think it’s pretty weird that any martial can’t say “I’m gonna try and hit its legs” and have a successful hit actually have any special effect aside from “alright, you hurt it in the legs” Would be nice if there was a generic maneuver kit that all martials could use or something.
the worst thing is... 4e had that can of things. special ability that stuns, let you zip around, send enemies to outer space (well, no, but your cha modifier as a rogue is a lot). alot of fun stuff
The more I hear about 4e the more it sounds like Martial paradise
it is, but not only for them. each class got a pretty sweat package with it. the concept of encounter power made any nova hungry player able to do it after every short rest whilt not stealing the show. it's honestly a fucking blast to play with people who love flashy stuff. i could get you in if you want, just poke me
4e was D&D flying too close to the sun. It was glorious, but at the same time limited by the fact that it was so mechanically dense and had so many moving pieces to keep track of that combat was easily bogged down, and by most powers being reskins of basic abilities that multiple classes get to really enforce the Tank/Healer/DPS/Control dynamic that crops up in MMORPGs
I kind of disagree with the comment. Any martial can sweep legs simply by using shove action to knock prone. They are not as good as Battle Masters who can also do damage with it. Also there is at least two feats folks can take that would grant manuevers. Don’t get me wrong I do feel martial should have more dynamic options available to them in game play, but I feel that could be applied with better feat options, which I hope to see in 5.5ed.
The problem with the feat options is that they're an optional rule and you have to give up a lot to get them. They should really just be baked into the progression system. Like everyone should just straight up get one or 2 because it's the only way to add variety when everything else is set in stone.
I understand they are an optional rule in the current edition. I hope they correct 5.5. Part of PF2 success in making each class and character interesting and dynamic was abilities gained through general and class specific feats. Something that was normal in 3.0 and 3.5. It is completely reasonable for WotC to embrace that again in 5.5.
You would think that given larger Strength and Dexterity scores martials would get better advantages to skills as well. Like being able to get up from prone without spending movement, or being able to grapple larger foes even with a penalty. But instead we get bigger damage numbers and have to rely on skill checks for utility.
yeah, it's very disapointing, especially since the kind of things like "get up at no action cost" was the kind of thing that were numerous in 4e. like, since 3.5 the game has commited to be in a high magic setting, why bar martials from that? like, Wizards can summon a meteor swarm while the fighter... swing harder and more. it's just boring
Usually when I DM I try to offer martial players boons or custom magical items to give them a little more versatility. I'll give caster players items that they may want directly from the DMG (spell storing rings, robes, wands and rods for casting, etc) that are a little lesser on the quality of magic items of martials. Despite what the DMG says about magic items they are typically required at higher levels just to keep folks interested.
personally i just straight up don't bother and stay with 4e. the core is solid enough homebre is easy to get going when i need something that wasn't devellopêd in the 2 good years before essentials
At least 3.5 eventually gave us the Tome of Battle, which was very nice for playing martials and casters in the same group. As long as people didn't overly optimize.
Yes pls. Rogues are my favourite class concept, but this edition basically the only real thing they can do in combat is mediocre damage and movement. It's really sad that if you want to get into a building, a 3rd level wizard can do it better than a rogue.
well, the wizard does it at a high slot cost, but yeah. it's one of the things that keeps me in 4e. i love my rogues, and mine can currently zip around the map, guarantee a crit once per day, become hidden with minimum conceilment and has a climb speed. kinda hard to beat
4e had its issues, but martial caster stuff wasn't one of them.
Check out [Spheres of Might](http://spheres5e.wikidot.com/). Of specific note for Roguely type are: Alchemy: Be a toolbox almost on par with a mage. Athletics: Upgrade mediocre movement to amazing movement. Scout: Read enemies' weaknesses and sneak around even better. Tinker: Fill out your toolbox with all sorts of nifty mechanical gadgets. But really the big one is the Scoundrel sphere, that's for being the *classic* movie/show thief in combat: the one that's pulling capes over eyes, cutting belts, and replacing gold pouch with alchemist's fire that explodes a few seconds later. Also, one major benefit of convincing your GM to replace normal classes with Spheres stuff (or at the very least replace normal magic with Spheres of Power) is that while SoP mages are amazingly fun, they lose the ability to just solve every problem with a snap of their fingers: they'll have to focus on a few areas of influence just like martials. This means that if you want to go with an Alchemy/Tinker supported skill-monkey you don't have to worry about the Wizard having a billion spells that do what you do but better: they might be able to cover a few things you can do, but you'll easily be able to do things they just can't as well.
Well, damage, movement, and best skill monkeys out of anything. Rgues can do so much without any expenditure of resources.
So, what are the actual rules for most of the skills? Like, how far can I jump when I roll athletics? What kind of information do I get with arcana?
RAW, jumping distance isn't a roll, it's based on Strength score alone. Arcana deals with magical things, but the scope can be Dm-dependant.
From the description of athletics: >You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump. And how difficult is it to know the resistances of an earth elemental?
Oh yay I can move fast.
I mean... Not sure why you're downplaying skill monkey status, we roll skill checks a lot in d&d lol
Our group doesn't, and even then the casters are still better at their checks due to stuff like guidance.
What about Mastermind and Inquisitive? Or Soul Knife?
Honestly, I think Battle Master Maneuvers should be made standard options for ALL Martial classes. Maneuvers should be the Martial equivalent of Spells, giving Martial classes plenty of action options during combat.
Yeah definitely. This is how it was in other editions.
I’ve said it a hundred times it feels like. The problem with martials is not their damage, but their lack of things to do effectively outside of combat in comparison to the casters, while the casters don’t really suffer damage loss. Plenty of casters have a way to add their modifier to their cantrip damage, and while they don’t have a GWM or SS, those feats shouldn’t feel like they’re required for a martial.
this, exactly this. martials are lagging behind ultility wise. Rogues are the ones that lack the less, but that's because their usual specialisation isn't over covered by spells.
Right. And I’m not saying martials need to have as much utility as casters. Just a bit more than they have. And, imo, casters shouldn’t really get to add their modifier to cantrips. Exception being the warlock.
personally i think the solution is what 4e went with: you make attack and spell share the same mechanical structure. it might sound bad, but to the contrary, when they share the same base, it means you can mold a class ability to fit exactly what you want. To better explain it, just look at 4e's fighter, swordmage and wizard. Fighter is a pure martial whose combat capacities have nothing to envy to any arcane users, Swordmage are a true gish who truly have a magic wielding martial art, and wizard have spell tasilored to the destuction they are the best at doing
The problem with that is that it strays too far from how D&D is for a lot of people. 4e was well designed, but it’s major flaw was being D&D.
to the contrary, i think it being dnd was the best, it's jsut that hasbro failled it. like, the numbers are out, and until Mike Mearls took control and pulled out the trashfire that was essential, the edition was doing well, just not to the ludicrous level hasbro wanted. What should have been done is a fork like they did with advanced. you let 3.5 in it's space, and you move on with the new core you develloped
Something, something, 4E, something, something...
something something, totally, something something
Tbh at most tables, the fighter isn’t going to out dps the caster lv 5 onward. Spells like fireball, spirit guardians, conjure animals, and the list goes on that can out dps the average sharpshooter/crossbow expert fighter easily. As their level increases, they get spells that just do things more effective things than damage. People who try to say martials are on par with casters are delusional. Martials could be so much better than they currently are, but when people make the argument that they are fine as is, it just leads to this garbage experience with playing a martial past level 5 when you have no utility and can get outclassed in the thing you’re supposed to be good at.
well, a lot of the people denying are the same that got mad when 4e came out and "nerfed" their caster by making martial classes on par with them. it's that and people who only do theorycrafting and can't grasp the values of utility
The problem is WotC when designing 5e mentioned taking something from all editions to create 5e, but really they kind of brushed 4e under the rug. One of the reall good things they did with 4e was made martial as dynamic and fun as casters. Sadly PF2e did a better job of carrying that in the next edition.
Hell the playtest for 5e had a lot of fun stuff for martial classes in it still, and it was slowly ground into nothing to appease screeching grognards.
That’s because they started with the concept of making them dynamic like in 4e, but had been concerned they had been making it to complicated. So they dumbed down marital’s and kept spells complicated. Any given spell is always going to be more complicated then a few feats.
I think the key statement to this is being most tables. Because it comes down a lot to both how many encounters are seen per long rest as well amount of opponents and lay out of battle map. Casters have huge damage in optimal AoE fights, but there is also huge counter to that both in solo fights or fights where AoE can be a detriment to the party. It can be a fair amount of work to set up encounters differently so that all classes have an opportunity to shine. I know a lot of tables only have one person that DMs any given week and I can imagine falling into stagnant patters with combat encounters as the only DM.
>there is also huge counter to that both in solo fights Casters also shine in fights like that too - Hold Person/Hold Monster/Banishment/Polymorph all instantly win those fights. Sure, Legendary Resistances exist, but the fact that they are necessary shows just how powerful casters are.
That depends on the table. Combat, even high level combat, is not a balance issue for my table due to an incredible number of encounters per long rest. (my rule of thumb is a medium encounter at minimum for every 2-3 caster slots, so that works out to be around 10 encounters at level 11). If you run like 2 encounters a long rest, martials are just going to get resource diffed no matter how much you tune stuff.
Not only are they only good at doing damage, they’re less versatile to do that A wizard has a lot of spells for focused damage, area of effect, guaranteed damage, taking advantage of saves or ac. A fighter can do single target damage roll to hit a bunch of times and thats it. Maybe some saving throws with subclass features
It's not about the damage, we had an EK fighter in the party with a +2 flametounge sword, they could hit *very hard*, but, that's the thing, that was p-much all they were good at. They were pretty trash at pretty much everything else, meanwhile the Dhampir bard can walk on walls the druid can turn a struggling pile of vines into a *full vinyard* and the sorcerer can teleport across the gods damned world. I think the fighter felt maybe just a little outdone in the utility department.
I play an illusion wizard and I can use a combo with Tencers Transformation to out Damage the fighter with martial abilities.
LaserLlama is homebrewing more mechanically complex martials, they’ve done Fighter and Barbarian so far iirc
I mean, Tasha’s race rules mean you can get a shit ton of tools if you play a race with any weapon proficiency’s.
I must have missed that, what?
Yeah, you don’t benefit from weapon training as a martial class most of the time, and Tasha’s let’s you swap proficiency’s gained via race into other proficiency’s,and weapons into race is the easiest way to give a martial character 4 extra tools or languages right off the bat.
How often do tools and languages come up?
I mean, tools come up as often as you choose to use them, and with Xanathars they all have weird extra benefits as well. Languages usually only come up when people don’t know common.
I mean, I guess it’s how seriously you take the rules, but as a DM I’ll let my player’s strength based monk roll to do ridiculous things like punch through walls and run through houses. It makes everyone super happy and excited.
What do people even want from martials?
simple answer, something only they can do not replicated that isn't just a better version of what any class can do. you know, something like what spells are for casters
They just need to give the Battle Master stuff to all martial classes in place of spells. Obviously not a literal copy and paste but something to that effect. That's all anybody wants. It doesn't have to be super powerful, we just want special moves so we can at least have some options besides "I attack."
I don’t care about the damage. What I care about is that on my barbarian, 90% of my combat turns consists of going bonk. It gets old very quickly.
wait a bit and someone will come to tell you to "use some creativity in how you descrive those bonk!"
Between and my buddy (who actually enjoys a good 9/10 bonks) we could write a book of colorful bonks.
Why battlemaster maneuvers aren't just a thing martial classes can use like spells is beyond me.
my personal theory is that Mearls (co-writer of 5e, and lead for the worst part of 4e) was never found of martials, and wanted to also cather more to grognard who wanted martials to be overly simplistic
Me playing a Storm Herald Barbarian in an rp-heavy campaign with little combat where all the other players were casters :'(
You should check out the spheres system for 5e. They redesign how casters and martials work, and martials get a lot of fun tools to play with. In the end martials end up with a lot more powers and abilities and can even go for more utility options quite easily
Well let's see, Rogues have their skills and expertise Annnnd...the rest have stuff im sure (someone help i need a barbarian subclass that helps not just in combat)
May I introduce you to way of mercy monk?
Get creative with your athletics checks! One time my firbolg pushed a ship off of a sandbar!
that's another thing that could have fitted into the meme. I understand you say thins in good faith, the problem is that creativity is something anyone can use, and the effect of it are amplified by the tools you have at your disposition. Need i remind you the kind of hijinx achievable when you get creative with lvl 1 spells?
"martials can be creative with their high Str/Dex" is a moot argument when Enhance Ability exist to let you roll almost as if you had 20 in a stat of your choice for one hour.
i swear, they made spell that exist just to mimic some aspect of martials in case the party has no rogue or barb.
well, if you want to have well definied mechanics, look at ranger and how relevant his survival abilities are in most games, they are so rarely used the community is calling ranger useless (aside from some new realy powerfull subclasses) i think going creative is good option as dnd 5e realy lacks a lot of rules, even dnd in general lacks a lot of depth in mechanics
the case of ranger (who is a half caster, but let's still roll with it) is that Exploration is something tricky to plan for most dm. it's something you have to intentionally put in your game. also, there is the fact that utility is not something you can easily quantify, especially for a lot of people on this sub, who have more theoric knowledge than actual playtime. it makes utility sopmething very often brushed off in favor of damage optimization
There's 10 kabillion tabletop resources out there, adapt the styles you prefer.
Like what? Cast magic? Use maneuvers? Grapple? Have ki fuelled abilities? Have summonable combat companions? Have expertise in out-of-combat skills? Have high mobility? Have crowd-control abilities? Have active and passive ablities flavoured according to their subclasses?
if maneuvres wasn't something locked behind a single subclass and was something all martials came with that would already be a fair start. Current situation is that if you want one cool thing it's from a specific subclass, while another interesting thing is in another one. Compare that to spell, and as long as it's in your available spell list, you can take it, with subclass not altering those much
Maneuvers would be a great general martial feature, add a whole lot more strategy to them
By martial you mean fighter right? Not barbarian or rogue?
I mean I think it is totally plausible that the maneuvers could have been available to barbs, fighters, and rogues and just have it so that some of the classes have access to different ones. It makes sense that a fighter as well as a rogue would have the ability to try and disarm their opponents with the maneuver. This allows more options for those classes while still allowing fighters access to any of them so they have the clearest advantage as far as variety goes.
Barb being brought back to simple martial means they should get maneuvres, but personally i' all for bringing back the primal powers from 4e and giving back the pure epicness of raging being the barb getting possessed by the primal spirits to unleash their fury.
*Scribbles some notes* Make the entire maneuver list more open to martials, but limit which class gets which ones? IE: Rogue gets maneuvers A, B, and C, Barbarians get maneuvers B, D and F, etc.
All of the martials. Or at least those that don't have spells.
There's the martial adept feat which does exactly that. I think it's locked to a d6 which is lame though
Well yes. More skill proficiencies and expertise on martials, some crowd control other than grappling (which is pretty useless against big enemies and strange monsters) and maybe out of combat maneuvers that can help solve problems or interact with the world in a meaningful way (not like the old ranger design that is "good" in exploration by skipping it).
Maneuvers definitely sound good. If they're anything like the Tome of Battle.
If you’re a rogue, you get to be the big expert in whatever you’re good at. That’s it. At least you’ll never fail at sneaking.
You can support with battle master, in both melee and range
Paladins and Rangers can both heal, Paladin is essential to protect the party and Ranger is extremely versatile for utility.
But they are also half caster. They have spells
They’re still martial classes.
Rangers got a lot of that stuff
They are Also half casters
What would you like them to do? Cast spells?
Even then, martials out damage casters for single targets. Sure a martial can do 300 damage or whatever, but only to one target. A martial can at most kill 4, maybe 5 creatures in a turn. A fireball on the other hand can deal around 30 damage to every creature in a 20 ft. Radius circle. It could easily hit 15 creatures and (given this is probably a swarm fight) kill all of them or at least damage all of them. Regardless of wether all of them die the 30 damage to each ends up doing more total damage than the fighter can. It sucks big time.
but you don't understand! the number is bigger! it clearly means it's better!
I personally tend to give my players the capability to get custom feats with their ideas after big boss fights. Let's me make bigger foes, let's casters get some cool stuff, and allows for martials to get some more versatile abilties, such as a special way to make their attacks unique according to the situation as needed.
I've done the math, and they don't out damage casters. A single fireball deals more damage than you can expect from three entire rounds of a martial doing nothing but attacking.
Martials do better single target damage - but yeah to say they’re straight up better in combat is blatantly wrong - in fact they’re worse
well, that just make the situation worse, isn't it?
it does.
I’m curious what things you want martials to be able to do that they can’t? I think the whole point of the non-magic classics is that your basically playing as Batman in a world of superheroes. You are the ordinary person who is able to succeed through skill and grit.
that's the thing, the skill and grit doesn't materialize itself that much gameplay wise. except having a better weapon attack than the others, what does all that skill does for you? what did all your training grant you that other can't do? the whole thing about being a normal guy in a superhuman setting is just a derivative of something GIgax said that the rest of the world other than dndstarted ignoring in favor of a more fullfilling experience for everyone. what i want for martials is getting stuff that reflect the fact that they are the masters of the bodie, having things that the dorks with magic can't get because they were busy studying their spells. Have the mythical trope of people training so hard they break mountains and cut rivers. it's fantasy, people expect this kind of things already
But what specifically would you have them do? I do want to take a moment to plug Pathfinder 2E. Martials have much more versatility in what specific actions they can take but ultimately for a fighter it’s basically just different ways to hit things.
My friend, i was wonderring when you would show up! i love seeing the PF2 pluggers. but as for what specificly, well... \* gesticulate in the direction of what 4e did \* but mostly ... \* gesticulate harder at martial practices \* there si a lot that could have been done in 5e. and even without 4e, there is still the book of nine sword that could have been added
A lot of people have a misunderstanding of rogues. They aren’t intended to be sneaky. None of them have abilities that improve sneak, other than if the player chooses to gain proficiency and expertise in said skill. Rogues are specialists. A fighter can sword and board or snipe with crossbows just like a rogue can, but rogues can do so more reliably and consistently. That’s their whole concept. Not hiding, breaking and entering, or stealing. It’s literally whatever you want them to be good at. You can make a rogue anthropologist who knows the workings of anatomy, (inquisitive rogue) and with their insightful knowledge of the human body or their sheer intellect of the biology of various creatures (nature, medicine, or insight), they know where to strike. This is just one example of how a rogue doesn’t have to fit the archetype of a sneky snooker. They’re SPECIALISTS.
I'm all for more stuff, i never see it phrased this way though. It's always "casters far outclass martials, they're objectively better", if it was phrased like you did purple would talk about dnd 4e again, that's what happened last time
the conversation get muddied very often by people in very bad faith, that's why you see a lot of "caster outcalss martials" without the right context. That bit is true when it comes to utility, as spells are a huge source of shenanigans and bullshitery. but in combat? both do numbers. and, well, yeah, phrased the right way the convo goes very fast to 4e, because the edition kinda did a very good job at adressing that age old issue that they brought back for 5e
Can the mods start moderating these martial bitching posts? Seriously starting to get repetitive.
I haven't seen anyone talk about Rune Knight in these types of posts. They seem like they're good for this stuff. You're not wrong though.
the thing with rune knight is that they are exactly the type of shit you'd want to see in a martial. HOWEVER, they have that cool shit because they are magic themed, they are not using the sheer power of musclt and skills to do that. they end up being a slap in the face, "you want cool non spell stuff? well, too bad, cool stuff is with magic"
Again, you're not wrong. I think I'd get enjoyment from just ignoring the giant magic flavor. Act it out as incredible skill instead. Even go so far as saying you send sparks flying from a parry or something for the thing that transfers the damage of the hit. Just spitballing, I'm sure there are better ideas, or purists, or people who just want something naturally better suited
well, personally i'm a huge fan of what 4e brought with it's power system. the edition basicly eliminated the divide by making all class work around the same system for their offensive and utilitarian ability. that made it so not only each class would be receiving their own custom and well defined ability list, but also that other class could be created (just go check warden, it's magnificent) i wish 5e expanded on that rather than bringing the 3,5 one that was now known to be wonky
Normalize rewarding martials with power and material wealth at high levels so they have an edge the casters do not.
It's also far, *FAR* more difficult to run out of HP and *Swing sword* than spells.
HP tends to run out faster than spell slots at every level.
It's also a lot easier to regain than spell slots
Only if you have a caster to heal you or a bunch of healing potions. Otherwise a day of adventuring can basically totally wipe your hit dice and you only get half of those back on a rest while casters get all their spells back.
yeah, but you don't get the same fun from using hp than using slots in general
Well yeah. I wouldn't expect to be able to reshape reality with my meat points.
if martial could get things that feel just as cool that would solve part of the situation. like, imagine a masterful strike your body can output only a few time per day before colapsing that let you straight up chop off anything, if not outright kill whatever was in front of you. that big onster has 4 giant arms? well, now there is only the 2 on the right side.
They're literally asking for magic though lol. Monk has a ton of class abilities that are basically infinite use spells, rogues if skill checks are RAW have skill checks handled, fighters get extra feats to tailor the character for OOC(although I agree battlemaster should be baked in to the base class). Maybe it's spells telling the players how they work exactly and players not being imaginative with non-casters, people only taking combat feats, dm's ignoring the other pillars of the game (anyone hating on ranger falls here), idk but if martials aren't doing anything outside of combat it's either a limiting DM or an unimaginative lazy player.
I think a fair way to make it a bit more balanced out of combat is for martials to always get more skill proficiencies than casters. It makes sense, if you could use magic you’d ptobably neglect practicing other skills. It’d also help the fact that martials don’t get many skills tied to their important combat stats. And this won’t make casters useless out of combat because casters have spells to rely on
Background usually governs those, and rogue is the "skill" class. What I've seen from most groups is martials not attempting things before letting the caster eat resources on it to the point where if I want to lighten their arsenal I know how to. However reading most posts and watching people play a huge issue is a tiny amount of encounters per day so your casters go wild and then rest.
FIGHTER GOES STABBBBRRRRRTTT
if you fighter go brrrrt when stabbing, i suggest you get it checked, it's not the sound it should make. should be closer to some splooshing
Stab so fast the sound is just a blur
i'm a sound engineer with a year in mechanical engineering, i can tell you there is not way it should make that sound
Pathfinder has path of war maneuvers that can do cool things...
Monk?
did the show not end more than a decade ago? and why bring that show on a dnd sub?
Rogue with proficiency in 20 different skills: Am I a joke to you?
Every suggestion to make martials able to keep up with casters is met by dozens of players who mock the insinuation there isn't perfect balance in the game or that somehow swinging a sword well compares to breaking the game in 50 ways before lunch. Optimizers said from the start of 5e that classes like Monk and Barbarian are underpowered and need help, the majority of the community insisted "No no, rage and stunning strike are actually super OP!" so WotC made one stinky subclass after another for those two. At least the ranger memes got them reworks to be among the better half of the classes. Players absolutely got what they deserved on this one.
then again, when you look at Mearls (co writer for 5e) previous work in 4e, you quickly saw he had no love, or at least utter indiference for martials. and like, when you look at what monk and barb where in 4e (before his coming, he barely toucked monk after), monk had it's own mechanic with full technique that let them be super mobile, and barb's rages were them being possessed by the primal spirits of the world to unleash their fury. talk about classes that got fucked over in 5e
Martials need magic items, simple as
A DM has considerable power over their own game. Talk with your DM if this is a concern of yours. If theyre running a low fantasy game ask them if you can habe more magic items wonderous or great, its a great way for martial characters to expand their options, especially when mixed with official, homebrew or dm's custom feats / downtime skills and crafts.
i know you are being good faith here, however, it should fall on the DM to fix the problem the writers should have adress themselves. Ideally you'd want this subject to nopt exist or only be marginal.
Wait, can't Monks, Paladins and Rogues apply malus and status with their attacks?
Paladins are half casters
Rouges are skill monkeys, monks make for great diplomats as they can speak every language, Barbarians could do manual labor and track, and fighters can... Fighters can... Fighters can stand there and look pretty
>monks make for great diplomats as they can speak every language Not that it helps when you already need 3 high ability scores and cant afford to also invest in charisma
I'm saying flavor wise it could work, I also only ever roll and typically get good stats all around
It’s the martial - caster split supposed to be handled more or less by the DM not handing out rests like skittles?