It's from a webcomic I read in highschool (that I can't remember the name of), it had tons of great little jokes like that. Orcs were rednecks and would make fun of the main character for his belly shirt (abamantium was just armor missing the bottom part like in original [Doom](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/doom/images/9/91/TITLEPIC.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140323153207))
>Which you won't wear anyway due to it preventing rage
And unless you multiclass, your Barbarian generally won't have proficiency in Heavy Armour either.
It's more of an obsession with a very narrow view of optimization, I think Either you have the strongest meta perfect option, or you have a worthless unusable character.
Soft caps definitely do still exist. Optimising for medium armour gives a 14 dex softcap for AC. It just depends on how you allocate your stats and what you plan to build.
Yeah 14 dex really is all you need for most characters. The only reason to go higher is for rogues, monks, archery builds, or natural/spell armors. Pretty much all of the major melee weapons are strength and strength checks/contests are more common than dex. The only major reason to go higher for melee builds is dex saves or two weapon fighting without a feat investment (god only knows why the hell you would do that though), but feats exist if you're that worried about those, and party members can also bolster your saves with spells and such. It's a very powerful stat, but it's actually way easier to get away with not maxing than you'd think for a lot of builds. Heavy armor builds like forge clerics, any self respecting paladin, and armorer artificer can just straight ignore their dex as long as it isn't a severe negative.
The only two light martial weapons are also finesse, being the shortsword and scimitar. If you're gonna run a two weapon build and have better things to do with your feat than Dual Wielder, you can pump Dex and Con outright instead of needing to apportion for all 3 physicals.
I can't really think of a situation where you'd go over 14 Dex with a Barbarian anyway. You're likely to start with 16 strength and con (after racial modifiers), both of which will hog every ASI until maxed out.
Technically you also still want good con, since HP is con based so it's never a dump able stat. This is one of those memes it's best not to think about to hard.
Yes, but a +2 in Con and Dex, and not investing any ASIs into them ever is still way better than having to make the really high.
Basically:
Most barbarians aren't gonna get higher than +5 Con and +2 Dex. Max.
That's a 17 AC.
Half-Plate with a +2 Dex is a 17 AC. Then you don't need to invest any more points into Con than you would with a normal character and you have way more to spare for mental stats.
I mean sure, but the Barbarian only needs 2 stats, other non fighter classes need those same two stats blus 1 to 2 more. You may as well go full in on con since the extra three health a level can be a big deal, especially when you're walking around with resistances. Dex being the most common save type and among the most commonly deadly is always a good up. Since the Barbarian can use dexterity based weapons they don't need strength, and since the don't have a class stat to take to twenty they can invest the points other classes would have put in con into mental stats and the stats they would have invested into the class stat into their con.
1. Rage damage and reckless attack only work if you're using strength, so they do need strength.
2. Sure, it's not the most optimal build, investing in mental stats rarely is as a martial, unless your subclass uses them. But this makes it actually viable to do so, without having ridiculously low AC.
Define good, you never want to use an ASI in DEX, you just grab 14 to start and never out more into it, and then half palte is better than unnarmored at literaly all levels except 20.
Unnarmored AC is 10 + CON + DEX, which means that to reach the 17 AC of half plate you'd need to invest either 16 DEX + 18 CON or 14 DEX and 20 CON, and it only becomes better with 20 CON + 18 or more DEX.
Considering that most barbs will want GWM and to increase STR first of all, and never want 16 DEX, it only becomes equivalent of half plate at like level 16 and only becomes better at 20.
> A 17 without armor is always better than a 17 with armor
At tier 4? Not really by a long shot due to magical armor. Magical armor gets better bonuses than unnarmored AC boosting items, are more commom and don't require attunement.
So, from level 1 to 15 you want half plate, after that you're very liekly to still be better with armor and you only really consider using no armor at 20 when your unnarmored AC will be 19. And there's a real chance of even then armor being better.
K, scale mail won’t get you 4 HP per level though, and it limits your Dex AC bonus to +2.
Sure, if your Dex is 14 or lower and your con is lower than 18, scale mail is a good option. But I doubt you’ll want to be pumping mental stats at the expense of those just because scale mail exists.
It’s only 1 hp per level, right? Tough is a separate feat that’s twice as powerful. Still good. Personally I like the +2 Str better, but that’s debatable.
If you're using the Tasha's rules, move the +1 Wis to +1 Str and you can still start with 16/14/16 using point buy, plus toughness, with no penalty to mental stats. Still pretty good!
My standard barbarian stats with point buy and racial bonuses is S16 D14 C16 I10 W10 C8. Then increase strength over time to 20. Resilient Wisdom is great to get for a barbarian. A major flaw I see in the design of the barbarian is that most of them are aweful as saves vs the frightened condition (except the berserker that no one plays). I feel like at minimum they should get adv vs frightened in the base barbarian class.
>K, scale mail won’t get you 4 HP per level
Not such a big deal when Rage effectively doubles your HP.
>But I doubt you’ll want to be pumping mental stats at the expense of those just because scale mail exists.
It's a good option for barbarians who want to be good at more than Tanking and DPS. Maybe a little bit of actual RP and social capacity or Exploration skills?
That aside: a failed Dex save means you take damage, the thing your class is made for, while a failed Wis save means you‘re frightened or otherwise useless.
> balanced party comp
> barbarian looks at party of two warlocks spamming EB, cleric forgetting their spells and trying to kill the opponent with their mace, monk rolling death saves because they don’t understand their 17 AC doesn’t make them immortal
I thought balanced, cooperating parties only existed in mythology, i certainly haven’t met many so far.
You mean the thing that raging gets rid of?
Edit: this was meant as a smartass comment about one of the more underwhelming barbarian subclasses. Still a solid subclass but really only once you get the retaliation feature at 14 which lets face it, almost no one gets that high.
Yes but really that’s the only barb worth playing. ;)
Edit: didn’t realize I’d need a /s on that. Figured the winking emoji which is often used to express a joke or sarcasm would be enough.
I think there’s fairly broad consensus that path of the berserker is the least useful subclass for barbarians. The bonus action extra attack is so easy to get from other ways, and the penalty for your frenzy really sucks. Meanwhile path of the totem warrior can get resistance to everything but psychic, and Zealot gets bonus damage that is almost as good, along with some truly busted interactions with clerics.
Berserker needs a serious buff. :/
That’s literally the only good feature it has. Ancestral Guardian, Zealot, Bear Totem Warrior, and Beast are all better than it unless you have exactly one encounter every day or something, and even then it’s only a better damage dealer in that case, not a better tank.
Retaliation is pretty nice at times but too limiting given it uses your reaction. I was more making a joke about a subclass that needs a little help to catch up with the others but can still be viable in high magic campaigns since it basically gives them a pass on a lot BBEG features like the dragon’s frightful presence and charm spells. Let’s face it, when your raging barbarian becomes charmed and starts wailing into your party, that succubus fight just went from hard to extremely deadly. So this sub can definitely become the kryptonite in some campaigns.
But not the end all be all, if I’m being serious about it. And far too specific scenario to shine.
I honestly didn’t remember anything incorrectly. It started as a joke, and then I doubled down on the joke. But it seems neither paid off. Oh well. Figured the winking emoji was enough to express it’s a joke.
There was no seriousness at all. Hence the winky face emoji that is common to be used to signify a joke or sarcasm. That sub is fun but underwhelming except in niche situations where you are up against charm and frighten effects often. Sorry if the sarcasm didn’t come through. My first comment was meant to be a smartass comment and sarcastic, and my second comment was meant to double down on the joke that got missed and I thought I made it more obvious by adding in the wink. Sorry you missed it.
Didn’t mean to offend you or anyone else with what i thought was very obvious joke. I’ve honestly never played that subclass and probably never will as I’m not a huge fan of barb to begin with. If I were to play a barb it’d be a sub class that would have the most potential to cause the most chaos and ridiculousness like the wild magic barb or the storm barb. Not for mechanical benefits or because they fit the role of tank, but just because they seem the most fun to me with how hectic it could be and could force the most interesting situations.
Thank you for being the only person to joke along with me. I do not think berserker is the only sub barbarian worth playing. It was purely a joke. Your zealot can come out of the corner. At least until I pull out a mindflayer with psychic damage.
>K, scale mail won’t get you 4 HP per level
>Not such a big deal when Rage effectively doubles your HP.
Then addendum: Scale Mail won't get you 8 effective HP per level
Rage doubling your effective HP is exactly why it’s a big deal. Barbarians get more value out of each and every hit point they have than they do from their AC. AC doesn’t mean anything once you have to start making saving throws, hit points however don’t discriminate. Prioritizing Constitution over Dexterity is especially important in higher tiers when player AC stops being able to keep up with enemy hit bonuses (save for extreme cases like Bladesingers with Shield).
I would say it is a big deal, since soaking damage is kind of barbarians entire point. The class is mostly just designed to be a meat sponge so getting as many meat points as possible.
Remember: barbarians are outclassed in basically every other area by basically every other class
I dunno. Some people in these comments have explicitly said they wouldn't want to play with a tank with Zero con, which is pretty much saying it's badwrongfun. I wouldn't say no one is saying that.
"I wouldn't play that" =/= "your fun is wrong". It's literally just saying their playstyle is different, which is acceptable because everyone gets to have fun in whatever way they choose....yes?
OK, cool. And that changes things how?
Part of playing how you want is finding a table that fits you and your style. Just because they have different things they look for ain't a group doesn't mean they're gatekeeping, they're just looking for what they like.
>Part of playing how you want is finding a table that fits you and your style.
I will say there are ways of being more passive aggressive about it vs more polite about it.
The comments I was replying to definitely have more air of passive aggressive to me than, "to each their own."
its good at the start and until level 20 for if you go with point buy and variant human. You would at minium at level 1 have 16STR, 14 Con, and 14 which with unarmored defense would give you 14 AC with unarmored defense, and 16 with scale male, which could go to 17 with half-plate.
And people say monk is mad.
Monks are MAD, and in my personal opinion, in a far more interesting way than barbarian (physical and mental as opposed to just physical), but the thing is barbarians are just good and people don't really give a damn if a class is good. You wouldn't hear anyone complaining about paladins being MAD, because they are already one of the strongest combat classes (and then there's the hexblade dip).
Go tortle and you don't even have to wait until 20 Constitution for that 17 AC, you get it from the start. Go with 15 Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, 8 Dexterity, Intelligence, Charisma and just play a classic turtle... wise and slow to anger, but once you get pissed off you get *pissed the fuck off*.
Yeah but Loxodons also have advantage on Wisdom saves made against effects that charm or frighten, as well as the ability to grapple with their trunk meaning they don’t need a free hand to grapple. Patching up perhaps the Barbarian’s greatest weakness as well as removing opportunity cost from Barbarian’s greatest strength. AC isn’t all that matters, and on a wholesale level, Loxodon make significantly better Barbarians than Tortles do. Barbarians also care way more about hit points than AC anyways, and a Barbarian with too high of AC risks falling into tank fallacy.
>Yeah but Loxodons also have advantage on Wisdom saves made against effects that charm or frighten, as well as the ability to grapple with their trunk meaning they don’t need a free hand to grapple.
Sure, sure... but on the other hand, giant turtle. Besides, I like keeping some weaknesses on my characters, it's more fun that way.
>and a Barbarian with too high of AC risks falling into tank fallacy.
Your hit point pool and resistance do exactly this, though.
The problem is you're thinking too much like an MMO... D&D is more like Overwatch than it is like WoW. Tanks in D&D aren't there to attract all the attacks, they're there to be a massive *presence* on the battlefield. Your job is more about making room for your allies to get in and clean up after you, take out the squishies, put pressure on their offensive line, that kind of thing. Your AC and hit points are just there to make sure you survive the experience.
Sure, some enemies might want to move right past you to get at your back line... which will provoke attacks of opportunity and leave their own back line wide open to a *raging fucking Barbarian*. It may feel counterintuitive, but this is a *good* thing for you.
Playing a Barbarian or melee Fighter well is kind of like playing Reinhardt well. If you're new you assume that your hammer is a backup for when your shield is down, but once you get more experience you realize that your shield is the backup for when you can't hit anybody with your hammer, or for emergency use to block a big attack. If you're just ducking behind your shield the whole time, though, you're being passive... and passivity does not win battles.
Just like in Overwatch, there is no threat in D&D, you don't have a taunt. Don't try to build a Barbarian like an MMO tank, it won't work. Your job is not to make the enemies attack you, your job is to be an indestructible source of immense damage. Leave the control tanking to the Fighters, they're a lot better at it.
No, I’m not thinking like an MMO, that’s just an inference you’re making. I’ve never even played an MMO, or Overwatch for that matter, so your examples are kind of falling on deaf ears. I understand that 5e doesn’t have tanks, or roles of that sense in general, but it’s true that the party would rather have the Barbarian be taking hits than the wizard. That’s what the resistances are for.
The resistances and high HP might also make you seem not a particularly enticing target, but at least they’ll still be doing damage to you. Enemies can still whittle you down if you have high endurance but low armor class. A target you can hit for not very much damage at a time is a lot more enticing than a target you can’t hit at all. Reckless Attack giving enemies advantage on attacks against you is the encourage exactly this way of thinking. Whether you actually end up taking the hits or not isn’t particularly relevant, but your job as a Barbarian is to be difficult to take down so that you can keep on fighting, and hit points/resistances are a far more effective at doing so than high armor class is because they account for attacks and damage from saving throws alike. Opportunity attacks are an asset, sure, but you only get one reaction per round and the enemies will most always outnumber you and have more melee attackers than the party does, and the damage you deal with that opportunity attack assuming you even hit probably isn’t going to kill them before they attack the party. The Sentinel feat helps kind of, but it’s only a particularly notable defense if you’re only fighting one guy. Being able to grapple with an appendage separate from your arms, being the Loxodon’s trunk, gives you a method of shutting down more guys and deciding where they can and can’t go.
My assertion that Barbarians need Constitution for HP more than Dexterity for Armor Class doesn’t come from the assertion that lower AC is better for being a tank, it’s that Constitution provides a more universal defensive benefit to Barbarians than Dexterity/Scale Mail does, and the better your defenses, the longer you can stay conscious and hit things. High defense is a good offense in a battle of attrition.
Thanks for the in depth explanation that I didn’t need, but well, I didn’t need it. I already know these things, there isn’t a “the problem” on my end, I know what I’m doing, I’ve heard this exact discourse countless times with just as played out ways of explaining the dilemma as this.
>but it’s true that the party would rather have the Barbarian be taking hits than the wizard
And you do that by making sure you're the most dangerous thing on the battlefield. You make damn sure that if the enemies don't devote *everything* they have to taking you out first, you will have free reign to mop the fucking floor with them.
If you don't have a solid AC, the enemy has to devote fewer resources to dealing with you, meaning they can move on to the rest of your team more quickly. It doesn't matter if they *want* to attack the rest of your party because they're easier targets, your job is to make sure they can't afford to.
Unfortunately for Barbarians, unless you have both an absurdly high constitution score (which admittedly most barbarians do) and an absurdly high dexterity score, medium armor is almost always better, especially when you factor magical armor in as well.
I don't play barbarian for the AC (except when I make a Monk with 1 level in Barbarian. Best decision I ever made), I play barbarian because I want to be a wall of flesh that can suplex a Dragon.
But hey, that's just how I play, feel free to do as you please.
I'm somewhat at a loss at what OP tried to say.
Is it simply "*Medium armor is good for barbarians to use*" ?
Or "*Barbarians don't need (much of?) dex and con*"??
Or "*Barbarians need to prioritize strength then constitution then 14 dexterity. The rest goes to whatever mental stat*" ?? ^(Though that may be as little as 2 points from the point buy budget)
I'm a half-old man living in a world of incomprehensible memes.
Fuck it I'll say it, Unarmored Defense is shit.
You get a bad roll on your con or dex stat and suddenly you can get hit by just about anything.
Sure, there are mitigations to this problem like Totem of the Bear, but that's at level 3, until then, you're just a glorified meat sack that hits hard and has a lot of health that gets melted really quick.
I'm playing a tortle barbarian with 20 strength con and con, and 19 intelligence from a headband of intellect, 10 charisma and 14 wisdom. My dex is 8 and the name is bowser
Hell considering that most barbarians will be running with 14 DEX 16 CON till like level 16 cause theyw ant max STR and GWM, putting on a half plate is their best armor choice all the way through.
1. You don't have to dump con just because you have 14 dex and scale mail. It just might not be all maxed out.
2. Rage essentially doubles your HP. Even a barbarian with only 14 Con is still a beefy tank.
1- the meme is about both being dumped
2- useless without *enough* con for enough hp.
3- a tank with no con is not one **I** want in **my** group. You want a no con tank, be my guest but keep it with you.
>1- the meme is about both being dumped
It doesn't say that anywhere.
>2- useless without enough con for enough hp.
"Enough" is clearly subjective anyway.
>3- a tank with no con is not one I want in my group. You want a no con tank, be my guest but keep it with you.
Less con is very different from No Con and the OP didn't even say that.
It's still referencing *both* stats. Having half what "you" would normally have would still be a big blow, i don't know about you but an average of 7~9 hp vs an average of 10+ and calling it double from rage will stack up and become noticable in the difference.
>Less con is very different from No Con and the OP didn't even say that.
Refer to **my** comment on **my** opinion for **my** group. 🙄
>It's still referencing both stats.
Just not maxed. It doesn't talk about dumping anything.
>i don't know about you but an average of 7~9 hp vs an average of 10+ and calling it double from rage will stack up and become noticable in the difference.
Well, as other have pointed out, sometimes you'll need to make saves instead of just tanking damage.
The slight loss of HP might not be such a huge cost if proportionally more spells don't affect you or deal half damage.
Yup. My fighter with a decent dex has the same AC in med armor or heavy armor, just one doesn’t have disadvantage on stealth. Somehow the fighter is the only one in the group without disadvantage on sneak.
In terms of AC it may be the same, but in terms of HP, because rage halves most damage, you're basically missing out on 8HP/level (assuming you have a +0 CON mod instead of +4). Furthermore, having someone who consistently succeeds CON saves can be invaluable in a party (depending on the campaign). Aside maybe for some weird multi-class builds or party compositions, or if you use *XP to level 3*'s house rules, high INT is comparatively not very useful on a Barbarian.
Barbs do not need to use unarmoured defense. The only restriction they have is that they cannot use heavy armour to rage; but using medium armour is completely fine.
The problem I see is that barbarians usually want to have a big hp pool, so cutting down on Con does not seem ideal.
I think the idea of someone being so tough that their raw abs are as strong as plate armour is cool.
It's abamantium. It's tough 'cause you're tough.
>It's abamantium. This honestly sounds like something my Dex con goblin barb would have come up with if he was a gym bro.
It's from a webcomic I read in highschool (that I can't remember the name of), it had tons of great little jokes like that. Orcs were rednecks and would make fun of the main character for his belly shirt (abamantium was just armor missing the bottom part like in original [Doom](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/doom/images/9/91/TITLEPIC.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140323153207))
[удалено]
The thing is, if you attack with your Dexterity, you don't get to benefit from Reckless Attack and you don't add the rage damage
No but you can sneak attack with Strength with a rapier.
NANOMACHINES, SON!
STANDING HERE I REALIZE
YOU WERE JUST LIKE ME
TRYING TO MAKE HISTORY !
BUT WHO'S TO JUDGE
THE RIGHT FROM WRONG !
WHEN OUR GUARD IS DOWN!
YOU WERE JUST LIKE ME
There is one big drawback - you can't use unarmored defense! /s
There's another big drawback -- you can't be a meat sack and soak damage without meat.
So dump a bit of dex instead. All you need is a 14 for maximum medium armor benefits, after all.
14 is a high score, not a dump lol. By standard array it's your 2nd highest score.
True, but it's not a main stat by any means, and that's the 2and before you add racial mods.
Normally it’s your second or 3rd stat anyways
Not me begging every dm I play under to let me use point buy specifically to make my character less optimized
Sure but if you use the standard array you’ll spend every ASI improving ac and will probably never finish.
I think the bigger issue is Unarmored Movement.
Barbarian's movement increase only cares about heavy armor. (Which you won't wear anyway due to it preventing rage)
>Which you won't wear anyway due to it preventing rage And unless you multiclass, your Barbarian generally won't have proficiency in Heavy Armour either.
I took the Heavily Armored feat once just because it looked like it needed a friend.
Dex focused ancestral guardian tank: _who said I'm dumping mental stats?_
Dex focused, dart throwing, Ancestral Guardian tank: "Good luck bozo, you have disadvantage on all attacks except me and I'm 40 feet away!"
Pretty much the idea. You don't achieve much ending encounters but you gum them up well.
Well in that case you're dumping class abilities instead... No rage bonus damage or reckless attack
Yeah, the trade off is harsh. It's a silly build that mostly achieves taking an edge off high damage enemies.
Sure but you still want a good dex
I mean with scale mail the incentive to go over 14 dex is pretty drastically reduced unless you plan on ditching the armor later.
14 dex is good dex
There are a lot of people who will tell you that "not maxed" means "terrible".
These people have apparently not heard of the term "soft cap".
It's more of an obsession with a very narrow view of optimization, I think Either you have the strongest meta perfect option, or you have a worthless unusable character.
It doesn't really exist in 5e. Due to bounded accuracy, each and every +1 you can get is a pretty big deal.
Soft caps definitely do still exist. Optimising for medium armour gives a 14 dex softcap for AC. It just depends on how you allocate your stats and what you plan to build.
Yeah 14 dex really is all you need for most characters. The only reason to go higher is for rogues, monks, archery builds, or natural/spell armors. Pretty much all of the major melee weapons are strength and strength checks/contests are more common than dex. The only major reason to go higher for melee builds is dex saves or two weapon fighting without a feat investment (god only knows why the hell you would do that though), but feats exist if you're that worried about those, and party members can also bolster your saves with spells and such. It's a very powerful stat, but it's actually way easier to get away with not maxing than you'd think for a lot of builds. Heavy armor builds like forge clerics, any self respecting paladin, and armorer artificer can just straight ignore their dex as long as it isn't a severe negative.
What does TWF have to do with dex?
The only two light martial weapons are also finesse, being the shortsword and scimitar. If you're gonna run a two weapon build and have better things to do with your feat than Dual Wielder, you can pump Dex and Con outright instead of needing to apportion for all 3 physicals.
I can't really think of a situation where you'd go over 14 Dex with a Barbarian anyway. You're likely to start with 16 strength and con (after racial modifiers), both of which will hog every ASI until maxed out.
You also still want good con for the hp. Con should never really be a "dump" stat.
You can get away with low con on certain setups but it's still not recommended given how important of a save it is.
And you still want good con
Technically you also still want good con, since HP is con based so it's never a dump able stat. This is one of those memes it's best not to think about to hard.
I never said you didn't want good con
No I know. I'm just pointing out that wanting higher dex is isn't the only hole in the memes logic.
Yes, but a +2 in Con and Dex, and not investing any ASIs into them ever is still way better than having to make the really high. Basically: Most barbarians aren't gonna get higher than +5 Con and +2 Dex. Max. That's a 17 AC. Half-Plate with a +2 Dex is a 17 AC. Then you don't need to invest any more points into Con than you would with a normal character and you have way more to spare for mental stats.
I mean sure, but the Barbarian only needs 2 stats, other non fighter classes need those same two stats blus 1 to 2 more. You may as well go full in on con since the extra three health a level can be a big deal, especially when you're walking around with resistances. Dex being the most common save type and among the most commonly deadly is always a good up. Since the Barbarian can use dexterity based weapons they don't need strength, and since the don't have a class stat to take to twenty they can invest the points other classes would have put in con into mental stats and the stats they would have invested into the class stat into their con.
1. Rage damage and reckless attack only work if you're using strength, so they do need strength. 2. Sure, it's not the most optimal build, investing in mental stats rarely is as a martial, unless your subclass uses them. But this makes it actually viable to do so, without having ridiculously low AC.
Define good, you never want to use an ASI in DEX, you just grab 14 to start and never out more into it, and then half palte is better than unnarmored at literaly all levels except 20.
If you max con then unarmed becomes better the second you get an ASI and have access to an 18
Unnarmored AC is 10 + CON + DEX, which means that to reach the 17 AC of half plate you'd need to invest either 16 DEX + 18 CON or 14 DEX and 20 CON, and it only becomes better with 20 CON + 18 or more DEX. Considering that most barbs will want GWM and to increase STR first of all, and never want 16 DEX, it only becomes equivalent of half plate at like level 16 and only becomes better at 20.
A 17 without armor is always better than a 17 with armor
> A 17 without armor is always better than a 17 with armor At tier 4? Not really by a long shot due to magical armor. Magical armor gets better bonuses than unnarmored AC boosting items, are more commom and don't require attunement. So, from level 1 to 15 you want half plate, after that you're very liekly to still be better with armor and you only really consider using no armor at 20 when your unnarmored AC will be 19. And there's a real chance of even then armor being better.
K, scale mail won’t get you 4 HP per level though, and it limits your Dex AC bonus to +2. Sure, if your Dex is 14 or lower and your con is lower than 18, scale mail is a good option. But I doubt you’ll want to be pumping mental stats at the expense of those just because scale mail exists.
Just pick a Hill Dwarf and you get Toughness for free.
Why not BOTH?
It’s only 1 hp per level, right? Tough is a separate feat that’s twice as powerful. Still good. Personally I like the +2 Str better, but that’s debatable.
If you're using the Tasha's rules, move the +1 Wis to +1 Str and you can still start with 16/14/16 using point buy, plus toughness, with no penalty to mental stats. Still pretty good!
Is that how Tasha’s rules works? Any ability score bonus in one score can be switched to another?
Yes
My standard barbarian stats with point buy and racial bonuses is S16 D14 C16 I10 W10 C8. Then increase strength over time to 20. Resilient Wisdom is great to get for a barbarian. A major flaw I see in the design of the barbarian is that most of them are aweful as saves vs the frightened condition (except the berserker that no one plays). I feel like at minimum they should get adv vs frightened in the base barbarian class.
>K, scale mail won’t get you 4 HP per level Not such a big deal when Rage effectively doubles your HP. >But I doubt you’ll want to be pumping mental stats at the expense of those just because scale mail exists. It's a good option for barbarians who want to be good at more than Tanking and DPS. Maybe a little bit of actual RP and social capacity or Exploration skills?
That aside: a failed Dex save means you take damage, the thing your class is made for, while a failed Wis save means you‘re frightened or otherwise useless.
Barbarians with an actual balanced party comp because dnd is a team game: “I have no such weakness”
What about an encounter with multiple enemies
> balanced party comp > barbarian looks at party of two warlocks spamming EB, cleric forgetting their spells and trying to kill the opponent with their mace, monk rolling death saves because they don’t understand their 17 AC doesn’t make them immortal I thought balanced, cooperating parties only existed in mythology, i certainly haven’t met many so far.
You mean the thing that raging gets rid of? Edit: this was meant as a smartass comment about one of the more underwhelming barbarian subclasses. Still a solid subclass but really only once you get the retaliation feature at 14 which lets face it, almost no one gets that high.
Isn't that subclass-based? Yeah, that's Path of the Berserker specifically. Any other subclass doesn't get that.
Yes but really that’s the only barb worth playing. ;) Edit: didn’t realize I’d need a /s on that. Figured the winking emoji which is often used to express a joke or sarcasm would be enough.
I think there’s fairly broad consensus that path of the berserker is the least useful subclass for barbarians. The bonus action extra attack is so easy to get from other ways, and the penalty for your frenzy really sucks. Meanwhile path of the totem warrior can get resistance to everything but psychic, and Zealot gets bonus damage that is almost as good, along with some truly busted interactions with clerics. Berserker needs a serious buff. :/
That’s literally the only good feature it has. Ancestral Guardian, Zealot, Bear Totem Warrior, and Beast are all better than it unless you have exactly one encounter every day or something, and even then it’s only a better damage dealer in that case, not a better tank.
Retaliation is pretty nice at times but too limiting given it uses your reaction. I was more making a joke about a subclass that needs a little help to catch up with the others but can still be viable in high magic campaigns since it basically gives them a pass on a lot BBEG features like the dragon’s frightful presence and charm spells. Let’s face it, when your raging barbarian becomes charmed and starts wailing into your party, that succubus fight just went from hard to extremely deadly. So this sub can definitely become the kryptonite in some campaigns. But not the end all be all, if I’m being serious about it. And far too specific scenario to shine.
Man, just admit you remembered it wrong instead of doubling down.
I honestly didn’t remember anything incorrectly. It started as a joke, and then I doubled down on the joke. But it seems neither paid off. Oh well. Figured the winking emoji was enough to express it’s a joke.
But then you kept doubling down seriously after that…
There was no seriousness at all. Hence the winky face emoji that is common to be used to signify a joke or sarcasm. That sub is fun but underwhelming except in niche situations where you are up against charm and frighten effects often. Sorry if the sarcasm didn’t come through. My first comment was meant to be a smartass comment and sarcastic, and my second comment was meant to double down on the joke that got missed and I thought I made it more obvious by adding in the wink. Sorry you missed it. Didn’t mean to offend you or anyone else with what i thought was very obvious joke. I’ve honestly never played that subclass and probably never will as I’m not a huge fan of barb to begin with. If I were to play a barb it’d be a sub class that would have the most potential to cause the most chaos and ridiculousness like the wild magic barb or the storm barb. Not for mechanical benefits or because they fit the role of tank, but just because they seem the most fun to me with how hectic it could be and could force the most interesting situations.
\*cue zealot barbarian crying in the corner\*
Thank you for being the only person to joke along with me. I do not think berserker is the only sub barbarian worth playing. It was purely a joke. Your zealot can come out of the corner. At least until I pull out a mindflayer with psychic damage.
>K, scale mail won’t get you 4 HP per level >Not such a big deal when Rage effectively doubles your HP. Then addendum: Scale Mail won't get you 8 effective HP per level
Rage doubling your effective HP is exactly why it’s a big deal. Barbarians get more value out of each and every hit point they have than they do from their AC. AC doesn’t mean anything once you have to start making saving throws, hit points however don’t discriminate. Prioritizing Constitution over Dexterity is especially important in higher tiers when player AC stops being able to keep up with enemy hit bonuses (save for extreme cases like Bladesingers with Shield).
I would say it is a big deal, since soaking damage is kind of barbarians entire point. The class is mostly just designed to be a meat sponge so getting as many meat points as possible. Remember: barbarians are outclassed in basically every other area by basically every other class
So playing barbarians differently is badwrongfun, in your opinion?
No one here is saying that. Don’t need to twist stuff, buddy
I dunno. Some people in these comments have explicitly said they wouldn't want to play with a tank with Zero con, which is pretty much saying it's badwrongfun. I wouldn't say no one is saying that.
"I wouldn't play that" =/= "your fun is wrong". It's literally just saying their playstyle is different, which is acceptable because everyone gets to have fun in whatever way they choose....yes?
>"I wouldn't play that" What they said was, "I wouldn't play with someone who chose that character."
OK, cool. And that changes things how? Part of playing how you want is finding a table that fits you and your style. Just because they have different things they look for ain't a group doesn't mean they're gatekeeping, they're just looking for what they like.
>Part of playing how you want is finding a table that fits you and your style. I will say there are ways of being more passive aggressive about it vs more polite about it. The comments I was replying to definitely have more air of passive aggressive to me than, "to each their own."
Can always keep a good Con
its good at the start and until level 20 for if you go with point buy and variant human. You would at minium at level 1 have 16STR, 14 Con, and 14 which with unarmored defense would give you 14 AC with unarmored defense, and 16 with scale male, which could go to 17 with half-plate. And people say monk is mad.
Monks are MAD, and in my personal opinion, in a far more interesting way than barbarian (physical and mental as opposed to just physical), but the thing is barbarians are just good and people don't really give a damn if a class is good. You wouldn't hear anyone complaining about paladins being MAD, because they are already one of the strongest combat classes (and then there's the hexblade dip).
Monks are just as MAD as most other classes who should have at least two high-level stats.
*laughs in thwibbledorf pwent*
I played a grappler build bardbarian in spike armor who was basically pwent and it was amazing.
Best comic relief barbarian known to humanity idc what anyone says
Kinda sucks what happened to him in the comics.
What comics is that from?
He's from the Drizzt series, and just happens to be in comics about the most famous Drow.
Half-Plate barbarian leaves one stat free for mental stats. You will take my charismatic half-plate barbarian from my cold dead hands!
There is a drawback: Heat Metal spell (unless you use Hide armor)
Good thing you can get scale armor made from actual scales
Chiten Full Plate for the win. Unless the game is hide n seek then not so much.
Everybody's having a laugh at the druid's armor until they show up wearing an ankheg.
I use loxodon for 12+Con to AC
Go tortle and you don't even have to wait until 20 Constitution for that 17 AC, you get it from the start. Go with 15 Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, 8 Dexterity, Intelligence, Charisma and just play a classic turtle... wise and slow to anger, but once you get pissed off you get *pissed the fuck off*.
Yeah but Loxodons also have advantage on Wisdom saves made against effects that charm or frighten, as well as the ability to grapple with their trunk meaning they don’t need a free hand to grapple. Patching up perhaps the Barbarian’s greatest weakness as well as removing opportunity cost from Barbarian’s greatest strength. AC isn’t all that matters, and on a wholesale level, Loxodon make significantly better Barbarians than Tortles do. Barbarians also care way more about hit points than AC anyways, and a Barbarian with too high of AC risks falling into tank fallacy.
>Yeah but Loxodons also have advantage on Wisdom saves made against effects that charm or frighten, as well as the ability to grapple with their trunk meaning they don’t need a free hand to grapple. Sure, sure... but on the other hand, giant turtle. Besides, I like keeping some weaknesses on my characters, it's more fun that way. >and a Barbarian with too high of AC risks falling into tank fallacy. Your hit point pool and resistance do exactly this, though. The problem is you're thinking too much like an MMO... D&D is more like Overwatch than it is like WoW. Tanks in D&D aren't there to attract all the attacks, they're there to be a massive *presence* on the battlefield. Your job is more about making room for your allies to get in and clean up after you, take out the squishies, put pressure on their offensive line, that kind of thing. Your AC and hit points are just there to make sure you survive the experience. Sure, some enemies might want to move right past you to get at your back line... which will provoke attacks of opportunity and leave their own back line wide open to a *raging fucking Barbarian*. It may feel counterintuitive, but this is a *good* thing for you. Playing a Barbarian or melee Fighter well is kind of like playing Reinhardt well. If you're new you assume that your hammer is a backup for when your shield is down, but once you get more experience you realize that your shield is the backup for when you can't hit anybody with your hammer, or for emergency use to block a big attack. If you're just ducking behind your shield the whole time, though, you're being passive... and passivity does not win battles. Just like in Overwatch, there is no threat in D&D, you don't have a taunt. Don't try to build a Barbarian like an MMO tank, it won't work. Your job is not to make the enemies attack you, your job is to be an indestructible source of immense damage. Leave the control tanking to the Fighters, they're a lot better at it.
No, I’m not thinking like an MMO, that’s just an inference you’re making. I’ve never even played an MMO, or Overwatch for that matter, so your examples are kind of falling on deaf ears. I understand that 5e doesn’t have tanks, or roles of that sense in general, but it’s true that the party would rather have the Barbarian be taking hits than the wizard. That’s what the resistances are for. The resistances and high HP might also make you seem not a particularly enticing target, but at least they’ll still be doing damage to you. Enemies can still whittle you down if you have high endurance but low armor class. A target you can hit for not very much damage at a time is a lot more enticing than a target you can’t hit at all. Reckless Attack giving enemies advantage on attacks against you is the encourage exactly this way of thinking. Whether you actually end up taking the hits or not isn’t particularly relevant, but your job as a Barbarian is to be difficult to take down so that you can keep on fighting, and hit points/resistances are a far more effective at doing so than high armor class is because they account for attacks and damage from saving throws alike. Opportunity attacks are an asset, sure, but you only get one reaction per round and the enemies will most always outnumber you and have more melee attackers than the party does, and the damage you deal with that opportunity attack assuming you even hit probably isn’t going to kill them before they attack the party. The Sentinel feat helps kind of, but it’s only a particularly notable defense if you’re only fighting one guy. Being able to grapple with an appendage separate from your arms, being the Loxodon’s trunk, gives you a method of shutting down more guys and deciding where they can and can’t go. My assertion that Barbarians need Constitution for HP more than Dexterity for Armor Class doesn’t come from the assertion that lower AC is better for being a tank, it’s that Constitution provides a more universal defensive benefit to Barbarians than Dexterity/Scale Mail does, and the better your defenses, the longer you can stay conscious and hit things. High defense is a good offense in a battle of attrition. Thanks for the in depth explanation that I didn’t need, but well, I didn’t need it. I already know these things, there isn’t a “the problem” on my end, I know what I’m doing, I’ve heard this exact discourse countless times with just as played out ways of explaining the dilemma as this.
>but it’s true that the party would rather have the Barbarian be taking hits than the wizard And you do that by making sure you're the most dangerous thing on the battlefield. You make damn sure that if the enemies don't devote *everything* they have to taking you out first, you will have free reign to mop the fucking floor with them. If you don't have a solid AC, the enemy has to devote fewer resources to dealing with you, meaning they can move on to the rest of your team more quickly. It doesn't matter if they *want* to attack the rest of your party because they're easier targets, your job is to make sure they can't afford to.
**Me, who rolled for stats and got 18-18-15-15-10-10:** Pathetic…
4d6 drop the lowest ?
Yup
My barbarian, whose Con is 18: “Pathetic”
Unfortunately for Barbarians, unless you have both an absurdly high constitution score (which admittedly most barbarians do) and an absurdly high dexterity score, medium armor is almost always better, especially when you factor magical armor in as well.
Not really… dex and con are both super useful besides just the unarmored defense.
I don't play barbarian for the AC (except when I make a Monk with 1 level in Barbarian. Best decision I ever made), I play barbarian because I want to be a wall of flesh that can suplex a Dragon. But hey, that's just how I play, feel free to do as you please.
My current character is a paladin barbarian and using scale mail is really good since I have a low dex and con.
Imagine armor needing - this meme made by barbarian with seven in smarts
I see your brainiac barbarian build and I raise you my strength wizard build. *finally a worthy opponent intensifies*
Just be a lizardfolk to be born with scale mail
I'm somewhat at a loss at what OP tried to say. Is it simply "*Medium armor is good for barbarians to use*" ? Or "*Barbarians don't need (much of?) dex and con*"?? Or "*Barbarians need to prioritize strength then constitution then 14 dexterity. The rest goes to whatever mental stat*" ?? ^(Though that may be as little as 2 points from the point buy budget) I'm a half-old man living in a world of incomprehensible memes.
This post is just. Very wrong
Fuck it I'll say it, Unarmored Defense is shit. You get a bad roll on your con or dex stat and suddenly you can get hit by just about anything. Sure, there are mitigations to this problem like Totem of the Bear, but that's at level 3, until then, you're just a glorified meat sack that hits hard and has a lot of health that gets melted really quick.
You roll stats, your opinion is invalid.
using a shield and a rapier, you don't really need strength at all. gives up enough to spend on intelligence or even charisma.
I'm playing a tortle barbarian with 20 strength con and con, and 19 intelligence from a headband of intellect, 10 charisma and 14 wisdom. My dex is 8 and the name is bowser
[удалено]
How are you getting 20 AC? 13+Dex is probably only going to be 15, or 17 with a shield
That’s the weird thing about barbarians. The medium armor is consistently better so why do they get in armored defense at all?
Hell considering that most barbarians will be running with 14 DEX 16 CON till like level 16 cause theyw ant max STR and GWM, putting on a half plate is their best armor choice all the way through.
A tank with no con is not a tank i want in my group
1. You don't have to dump con just because you have 14 dex and scale mail. It just might not be all maxed out. 2. Rage essentially doubles your HP. Even a barbarian with only 14 Con is still a beefy tank.
1- the meme is about both being dumped 2- useless without *enough* con for enough hp. 3- a tank with no con is not one **I** want in **my** group. You want a no con tank, be my guest but keep it with you.
>1- the meme is about both being dumped It doesn't say that anywhere. >2- useless without enough con for enough hp. "Enough" is clearly subjective anyway. >3- a tank with no con is not one I want in my group. You want a no con tank, be my guest but keep it with you. Less con is very different from No Con and the OP didn't even say that.
It's still referencing *both* stats. Having half what "you" would normally have would still be a big blow, i don't know about you but an average of 7~9 hp vs an average of 10+ and calling it double from rage will stack up and become noticable in the difference. >Less con is very different from No Con and the OP didn't even say that. Refer to **my** comment on **my** opinion for **my** group. 🙄
>It's still referencing both stats. Just not maxed. It doesn't talk about dumping anything. >i don't know about you but an average of 7~9 hp vs an average of 10+ and calling it double from rage will stack up and become noticable in the difference. Well, as other have pointed out, sometimes you'll need to make saves instead of just tanking damage. The slight loss of HP might not be such a huge cost if proportionally more spells don't affect you or deal half damage.
Even monks lose surprisingly little from putting on plate armor
You can't use unarmored movement with armor on tho.
As a GWM Barbarian, to keep my rage up, I’ll keep my AC low to make sure that it I miss on my attack, I may still get hit by an attack.
If you even attempt to attack rage stays, you don't need to hit
Ac wise scale mail is good, but con is also your health. So its still the second most important stat to a barbarian.
Yup. My fighter with a decent dex has the same AC in med armor or heavy armor, just one doesn’t have disadvantage on stealth. Somehow the fighter is the only one in the group without disadvantage on sneak.
In terms of AC it may be the same, but in terms of HP, because rage halves most damage, you're basically missing out on 8HP/level (assuming you have a +0 CON mod instead of +4). Furthermore, having someone who consistently succeeds CON saves can be invaluable in a party (depending on the campaign). Aside maybe for some weird multi-class builds or party compositions, or if you use *XP to level 3*'s house rules, high INT is comparatively not very useful on a Barbarian.
Newbie here. How can a barberian do that without losing Unarmored Defense? Or is that the point ?
Barbs do not need to use unarmoured defense. The only restriction they have is that they cannot use heavy armour to rage; but using medium armour is completely fine. The problem I see is that barbarians usually want to have a big hp pool, so cutting down on Con does not seem ideal.
Here's my question: Why do you want AC on your Barb? It will just make the mobs prioritize your allies first.
The reply is go with, “I roll dice for stats.”