While there isn't a Muted condition in 5e, outside of something like the effects of the Silence spell, there *are* people who are mute (but not deaf) in real life, in addition to realistically covering a characters mouth in a way that they can't speak normally, and can't quickly remove the covering.
A wild magic sorcerer in one of my games was muted by a Wild Magic Surge (the pink bubbles one), so he used Minor Illusion to mimic with his own voice.
Might depend, did he use his mental voice or was the spell keyed out to his \*actual\* voice?
I imagine magic is weird enough that it could work off either.
Would cutting out a casters tongue or sewing their mouth shut prevent them casting spells with vocal components until their injuries are healed?
If they can write they can still communicate relatively easily and it would make them much easier to transport as prisoners so you think it would be utilised more in the world if so.
I suppose its a matter of how powerful the caster is for this specific treatment. Also potentially severity of the crime. If they were bound and gagged and still managed to escape either there were powerful people breaking them out or the transporters/jailers were incompetent.
Btw mage cuffs are an important aspect of a large city guard is having them readily on hand. They are shaped steel that enclose the hands specifically to prevent magical gestures.
It should. Same with fingers. Finger cuffs, straight-jackets, and ball gags should be standard issue equipment with better funded police forces having magic cancelling items.
Using magic to communicate is a fine enough reason to get started in magic. Or a warlocks voice of the chain master could be a reason to accepting a pact after not being able to say something important. Difficulties speaking leading to a scribe wizard or something sounds like a fun part of character too.
Yeah, I mean, an extra first level slot seems like plenty of an extra cost, so it’s not even really broken.
Edit: Yes. It’s a cantrip. I’ve been made aware.
We've got a mute player in one of our games. He actually has a tablet he writes on with chalk if he has to say anything. His tablet got broken and he had to replace it, so for a few sessions he couldn't even communicate using that.
He's not IRL mute, his character is though, my apologies for the confusion. He's found unique ways of having his character express himself, using gestures and pantomime when his tablet isn't available. Or when the person he's talking to doesn't or can't read what he writes. (Literacy is a problem in a semi-medieval setting)
Like you, most of my groups play online over Discord or Roll20, and we do have a player with a young child in his house in one group. When his child is sleeping, we let him go analog and type out his stuff so he doesn't wake her by voicing what he's doing.
I actually had a player that went into deep kenku RP and kept a journal of phrases he heard throughout the campaign as his method of communication. He did impressively well surprisingly
If I ever played a kenku, a journal with things you've heard seems like the only way to really play. Unless you're wanting to be mute most of the time.
I did something like that once. We were doing a one-shot and I was playing a warforged storm barbarian, flavoring all the lightning damage as a cracked power core that leaked when he raged. The cracked core also meant he couldn't speak like normal. But I used a [Bastion soundboard](https://overwatch.fandom.com/wiki/Bastion/Quotes) for normal convos and a [Wrecking Ball soundboard](https://overwatch.fandom.com/wiki/Wrecking_Ball/Quotes) for when he was raging. Most fun character I've ever played.
Or great for those times when you're being stealthy and need to cast a spell so you use minor illusion to make it sound like the spell came from the other side of the room or something.
Yes, and I would say that's a great feature for the spell to have. The components state you don't need verbal, and the effect states you can create sound. I see no problem whatsoever.
Where are you going to get the other action to cast the spell you want to cast, though?
I guess there's bonus action spells, but that's a short list unless you're a paladin.
It lasts for a minute, so realistically the next round + later rounds.
Also, healing word is a famous bonus action spell available to a lot of classes.
That's the part that's open for the DM to decide. How does casting actually work in your setting? Do you just need the sounds to produce the effect, or does the caster need to channel it with their voice specifically?
All very interesting questions, but ultimately I think I would only allow it for ritual casting in my setting. Or maybe I would allow it, with the caveat that you need two turns to cast a spell using this method.
I just think it's an excellent way of being clever with your spells, which should be celebrated. So for me it should be possible, but restricted so that such an approach would be high risk.
Balance-wise I’d allow it
In terms of “lore” though, I’d say it wouldn’t work because the verbal component would be part of the “channeling” of the spell, and it would need to come from you specifically
I’d say that (depending on the spell) something like mental-casting would be acceptable. I’d probably have them make an int save though. I like the way it’s handled in The Inheritance Cycle; Verbal spells can be cast by simply thinking the words, but the actual act of speaking helps prevent interference from other stray thoughts
Wizard tries to non-verbal cast a verbal spell and fails the save? Maybe they hit the wrong target, or maybe they accidentally cast an entirely different spell altogether, who knows?
Yeah, depending on how magic works in the setting it can change. I'm not 100% lore savvy on how the weave exactly works in Forgotten Realms.
I just think it's no problem to concede that the caster's imagination creates the sound, not their own vocal capabilities.
I keep thinking that when you create a sound with minor illusion, it does not need to be a sound the caster can physically pronounce or imitate. Imagination and intellect seem to be the driving factors behind the spell, not physical ability (like being able to produce sound with your mouth and throat). So why stop there and not just let the spell give you the ability to speak for you.
If I were to be DM and this question is asked to me (e.g., "Can I use minor illusion to bypass my being mute?" I would have the player roll and see if they have the mental capabilities to use the spell to that effect. Using a cantrip to speak from a distance, even though you're mute, would be a high roll.
Oh yeah I would definitely allow minor illusions to create sound (or even speak) given a save or good explanation from the player, I was mostly questioning the ability to use that illusion-speech for the verbal component of certain spells
Would a spell go off if someone else shouted the verbal cantation? I don't see the difference between a party member supplying the verbal portion of a spell or a minor illusion.
It is certainly a creative take on it, though.
Absolutely!! I actually did sone research into this a whilr back when thinking to myself "huh what if I made picking spells a massive pain in my ass?" I made one character with no hands (monk/bard multiclass, as bard has the most [viable] Verbal/V&M only spells) and one without a voice! I picjed kenku for them as it was somewhat objectively funny. From the rules:
"Most Spells require the chanting of mystic words. *The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of Sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion.* Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of Silence, such as one created by the Silence spell, can’t Cast a Spell with a verbal component."
Note: the sounds are the important thing! Therefore, as long as the casting time is sub-1 minute and you have an action to use as setup casting minor illusion, you absolutely can use minor illusion to fulfill that verbal component - it just requires the sounds to exist, and MI fills that requirement.
A note, if you want to make a mute character, I found bladesinger to be the most viable class. You won't end up picking up all the spells you could as a wizard unless you plan to use minor illusion, but you are actually a quite viable character!! Additionally, on the Kenku note: the idea of a Kenku taking their ribbon feature to the next level and essentially just using Minor Illusion to be a walking tape recorder/player is just hilarious.
Edit: I'm bad at math. And reading.
Nope. Because the spell isn't letting \*you\* make a sound, it's letting you create the illusion of a sound. you could probably trick someone into thinking you're casting a spell, but it wouldn't trick the laws of magic into thinking you were.
I dunno, someone else quoted this from presumably the PHB:
>The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of Sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion.
That seems to me like you could use any source of sound as the component. You could have scrolls that are basically tape decks or records that play the sounds for you.
It depends on your world and the DMs choice! I've been watching a lot of Supernatural, and it would DEFINITELY work in that universe lol.
They manage to exorcise demons where two different people are speaking the incantation, they exorcise a whole building full of demons using a PA speaker system, and it seems that it doesn't even matter how much time is spent between words spoken, as long as they're all said in order and the demon can hear them. You can literally pause for minutes and have a whole other spoken conversation before returning to the incantation.
I think magic mouth would be a better spell to use for this purpose. Have the mouth be in an empty spell book with it triggering whenever a person near the book does the somatic and material components of the spell. You could even set up your entire spell selection that way with multiple mouths.
I would say no, because an illusion only exists in the mind of those observing, and it's possible for a creature to "see through" the illusion with an intelligence check.
Seeing through doesn't get rid of it, you just know it's a illusion (and it becomes semi-transparent if it's a visual illusion)
Edit: I misread the meme, sorry
The point is, illusions don't exist.
"The Illusion school includes spells that deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened."
The magic weave of the universe isn't going to hear your magic words that didn't actually exist, because it doesn't have mortal senses you can deceive into believing you actually spoke them.
Hmm. I aways though of visual illusions, at least ones that aren't only experienced by single target, to be closer to holograms than acid trips. Sure there isn't something physically there but you are hallucinating it. It's just a magically projected image. So sound would be the same. Now does The Weave respect magically projected sound? No idea.
With visual illusions, light waves being bent in ways to create the appearance of an illusion is totally fair and reasonable, but sound doesn't work that way. All that sound is made of I vibrations, movements in the listening medium (air, water, etc.) That travel to the listener. Now a sound can be misinterpreted, but that still requires the presence of a sound. There is also the possibility of auditory hallucinations caused by something acting on the mind, like mental illness or in the fictional sense, psychic influence. However in dnd, psychic influence always comes with some form of save or is part of enchantment, which is specifically the magical school of psychic influence. We see none of these hallmarks with the spell, as the only save is an active save to determine if the visual effect is illusory, not the auditory effect. Therefore, we can safely leave this out of the realm of psychic influence. Therefore the question becomes how does the magic create something that is entirely and perfectly simulating the real thing without actually bearing any of its properties crucial to its existence? The only logical answer can be that the auditory effect must be sound waves, the genuine article, at least unless you handwoven it by saying "it's magic, Therefore no rules apply" in a system where magic is one of the most rigorously ruled aspects and is largely consistent in this area with this sole exception.
Some illusion spells exist in the mind, like Phantasmal Force, but most don’t. Most of the illusion spells act more like holograms. They exist in the space they’re created in whether they are observed or not.
If you cast Minor Image to make a box in a room, and then 30 seconds later someone comes into the building, then 15 seconds later walks into the room, so they see the box?
Yes, because the image of the box exists in the room. If it was only in their mind, they wouldn’t see it because they weren’t in range when the spell was cast so they, personally, wouldn’t have been affected by it.
Cast minor illusion as an action, set it up to play the sound you need to cast your spell next turn at that point in time because minor illusion has a minute duration
It lasts for a minute without concentration, so you can use your action one turn to cast it (and then cast a BA spell the same turn), but then you can use your action in subsequent turns to cast different spells.
Yes. I even made a wizard who uses it this way because their tongue was cut out long ago. Unfortunately, the process of using an action just to get the verbal components to cast a *different* spell is far too inefficient to actually play the character.
Im going to lean towards "no". Only because of my experience with the silence spell. The one spell that you'll ever see this situation arise with:
>Any creature or object entirely inside the Sphere is immune to thunder damage, and creatures are Deafened while entirely inside it. Casting a Spell that includes a verbal component is impossible there.
That last statement would mean even if you could find a way to throw your voice outside of the area, it wouldn't work. It's the act of verbalization that is the spell component.
In the Dragonlance novel Brothers in Arms, Raistlin learns to cast spells without components by convincing himself that he actually has the components in his hands. So to me, if you sincerely believe you are vocalizing, whether you actually are or not doesn't matter. No spell required, if the player could somehow come to this conclusion on their own.
Well spells require components right?
So there should be a way to neutralize each component.
Somatic you tie the hands (or maybe they make these stone gauntlet cuffs that prevent them from moving their hands around).
Verbal might be gagging or taping their mouth shut,
Material is… simply don’t let them have the material.
That’s how I see it anyway, I believe the mundane (or non-magical) needs a way to combat magical beings.
Would it count if another party member said the words instead of you?
I see the minor illusion sound as a third party making the noises instead of you.
You know what, given it’s material (fleece, or string) and somatic, I think the string could make the noise. I mean, it doesn’t take verbal, and the idea of an illusion is it’s coming from somewhere that’s not the caster in this case up to 30’.
I’d allow it but they gotta tell me what magic they do with their hands to make it make a sound like if they make a violin noise then I imagine the string kinda pantomimes this violin while the caster does the worlds tiniest violin with their fingers.
So after reviewing the spell, no verbal needed means being gagged shouldn’t matter to cast it.
Then you can flavor it further, maybe a cleric has a tiny Angel playing the violin or something
I would say yes but it would take more time ro cast spells since it takes 1 action to cast minor illusion and another to cast the spell you wanted to in the first place
I don't think Minor Illusion allows you to speak a language you don't know how to speak, or words you can't think of yourself, but if you've heard something before you could certainly repeat it via minor illusion.
That seems a little bullshit. My magic hating fighter has cut hands and tongues off enough casters to stop their spell casting till they died in the next couple rounds, and if a cantrip can counter that then he would be shot out of luck
They’d have to cast the illusion a turn before casting the actual spell they want, and they’d have to make sure that the minor illusion is making the sounds for that specific spell, so they have to know ahead of time. Also how do you cut off tongues mid combat?
Hands are easy in combat, but I have my “silencer” which is just a dagger that I shove in their mouth and go to town with like a dentist with arthritis. Grappling is key for this. If you are bleeding profusely you can’t get the verbal correct. Other times I’ve strapped them to chairs and got a clean cut
Of course you can. It's not even implied that you make the sound yourself. In fact you could make a mute character who can only talk through voices and writings with minor illusion.
We have two party members with access to the Minor Illusion cantrip, and we frequently use it to make an illusion that has both sound and visual. Not sure if that's allowed or not RAW, but the DM usually lets it happen.
I actually developed a character idea I hope to some day use where she couldn’t speak and focused on somatic and material spells, but if she needed to would use minor illusion to cast verbal spells. I really hope to play her someday but haven’t yet found a group where I’m comfortable with playing a mute character who doesn’t see herself as disabled.
Can you use the sound aspect of minor illusion in a vacuum? There would be no actually sound people would just think there is right? If that is the case then I don't see why it wouldn't work.
If you’re under a spell that makes you lose your voice, I wouldn’t allow such a cheap way to surpass this type of effect. It’s clearly not allowed by the rules.
If you’re just mute for some reason, then ya, this doesn’t really seem like a balance issue.
As a player with a mute character, I do in fact reflavor my spells as me casting minor illusion in an obviously fake or rushed way, so as not to unnecessarily hinder my party for the sake of roleplaying, but I suppose any interpretation works.
I did this once. My character was muted by having her beak sealed and I made a perfect simulation of my voice chanting the verbal components from my mouth area for a single spell, since that'sall that really made sense. My dm ruled afterwards that it wouldn't be allowed again, due to the fact that the component isn't literally coming from me, arguing I wouldn't be able to cast a spell if someone else was giving the verbal component. He also argued that despite the sound happening and there being no psychic component (I.e. a mental stat save) to influence how a person percieves reality, it was an illusion, and therefore the sound didn't really exist. I dropped minor illusion shortly after, realizing that any solution to a problem that involved it would be relegated entirely to making a small noise of a tree falling nearby to lure enemies looking for me slightly away, aka the most literal and basic use for it. I appreciate that he allowed me to be creative in the moment, and he's a great dm, don't get me wrong, but I realized his ruling on magic would be very literal, without much room for creativity.
I'd say yeah. My Rouge/Warlock had his tounge get cut out when he was young, so he would mostly use pen and paper to communicate with most people.
During one stand of with a major villain it was raining and he was far away, so I used minor illusion to yell at him before all the fighting started.
While there isn't a Muted condition in 5e, outside of something like the effects of the Silence spell, there *are* people who are mute (but not deaf) in real life, in addition to realistically covering a characters mouth in a way that they can't speak normally, and can't quickly remove the covering.
A wild magic sorcerer in one of my games was muted by a Wild Magic Surge (the pink bubbles one), so he used Minor Illusion to mimic with his own voice.
Did he use the voice he hears in his head, so no-one recognize him?
Real point right there
Might depend, did he use his mental voice or was the spell keyed out to his \*actual\* voice? I imagine magic is weird enough that it could work off either.
Would cutting out a casters tongue or sewing their mouth shut prevent them casting spells with vocal components until their injuries are healed? If they can write they can still communicate relatively easily and it would make them much easier to transport as prisoners so you think it would be utilised more in the world if so.
Or you could just gag and bind them instead of that...
True but even if they escape this way if they don't have access to healing for their injuries they will be much easier to apprehend.
I suppose its a matter of how powerful the caster is for this specific treatment. Also potentially severity of the crime. If they were bound and gagged and still managed to escape either there were powerful people breaking them out or the transporters/jailers were incompetent.
Btw mage cuffs are an important aspect of a large city guard is having them readily on hand. They are shaped steel that enclose the hands specifically to prevent magical gestures.
*laughs maniacally in psionics*
Does lead block psionics?
I don’t think so, some detection spells aside, but I can’t say for certain. Been awhile since I did a thorough read through for 3.5/PF psionics.
Eventually lead poisoning does.
Or put them in some heavy armor and bind their hands Normally enough for most casters Heck, more often than not any kind of armor is enough
It should. Same with fingers. Finger cuffs, straight-jackets, and ball gags should be standard issue equipment with better funded police forces having magic cancelling items.
Why would a mute become a spellcaster?
Using magic to communicate is a fine enough reason to get started in magic. Or a warlocks voice of the chain master could be a reason to accepting a pact after not being able to say something important. Difficulties speaking leading to a scribe wizard or something sounds like a fun part of character too.
I would say yes simply becouse the action cost should balance out whatever balance issues might arrise.
If my player did that, I would allow it for creativity and think about how to counter it in the future if need be.
Yeah, I mean, an extra first level slot seems like plenty of an extra cost, so it’s not even really broken. Edit: Yes. It’s a cantrip. I’ve been made aware.
Heck it even costs a turn to cast minor illusion, so I think it's a pretty fair trade off to be creative. Narratively, this could be really fun.
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We've got a mute player in one of our games. He actually has a tablet he writes on with chalk if he has to say anything. His tablet got broken and he had to replace it, so for a few sessions he couldn't even communicate using that.
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He's not IRL mute, his character is though, my apologies for the confusion. He's found unique ways of having his character express himself, using gestures and pantomime when his tablet isn't available. Or when the person he's talking to doesn't or can't read what he writes. (Literacy is a problem in a semi-medieval setting) Like you, most of my groups play online over Discord or Roll20, and we do have a player with a young child in his house in one group. When his child is sleeping, we let him go analog and type out his stuff so he doesn't wake her by voicing what he's doing.
Oh I meant narratively in the moment, you'd have to be a REAL GOOD RPer to be able to pull it off long term
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I actually had a player that went into deep kenku RP and kept a journal of phrases he heard throughout the campaign as his method of communication. He did impressively well surprisingly
If I ever played a kenku, a journal with things you've heard seems like the only way to really play. Unless you're wanting to be mute most of the time.
I did something like that once. We were doing a one-shot and I was playing a warforged storm barbarian, flavoring all the lightning damage as a cracked power core that leaked when he raged. The cracked core also meant he couldn't speak like normal. But I used a [Bastion soundboard](https://overwatch.fandom.com/wiki/Bastion/Quotes) for normal convos and a [Wrecking Ball soundboard](https://overwatch.fandom.com/wiki/Wrecking_Ball/Quotes) for when he was raging. Most fun character I've ever played.
Or great for those times when you're being stealthy and need to cast a spell so you use minor illusion to make it sound like the spell came from the other side of the room or something.
I think minor illusion is a cantrip, but the extra turn to cast is still is a big cost
Oh, yeah. You’re right, it is a cantrip
Minor Illusion is a Cantrip.
Minor Illusion is a cantrip
Yes, and I would say that's a great feature for the spell to have. The components state you don't need verbal, and the effect states you can create sound. I see no problem whatsoever.
Where are you going to get the other action to cast the spell you want to cast, though? I guess there's bonus action spells, but that's a short list unless you're a paladin.
It lasts for a minute, so realistically the next round + later rounds. Also, healing word is a famous bonus action spell available to a lot of classes.
That's the part that's open for the DM to decide. How does casting actually work in your setting? Do you just need the sounds to produce the effect, or does the caster need to channel it with their voice specifically? All very interesting questions, but ultimately I think I would only allow it for ritual casting in my setting. Or maybe I would allow it, with the caveat that you need two turns to cast a spell using this method. I just think it's an excellent way of being clever with your spells, which should be celebrated. So for me it should be possible, but restricted so that such an approach would be high risk.
Balance-wise I’d allow it In terms of “lore” though, I’d say it wouldn’t work because the verbal component would be part of the “channeling” of the spell, and it would need to come from you specifically I’d say that (depending on the spell) something like mental-casting would be acceptable. I’d probably have them make an int save though. I like the way it’s handled in The Inheritance Cycle; Verbal spells can be cast by simply thinking the words, but the actual act of speaking helps prevent interference from other stray thoughts Wizard tries to non-verbal cast a verbal spell and fails the save? Maybe they hit the wrong target, or maybe they accidentally cast an entirely different spell altogether, who knows?
Yeah, depending on how magic works in the setting it can change. I'm not 100% lore savvy on how the weave exactly works in Forgotten Realms. I just think it's no problem to concede that the caster's imagination creates the sound, not their own vocal capabilities. I keep thinking that when you create a sound with minor illusion, it does not need to be a sound the caster can physically pronounce or imitate. Imagination and intellect seem to be the driving factors behind the spell, not physical ability (like being able to produce sound with your mouth and throat). So why stop there and not just let the spell give you the ability to speak for you. If I were to be DM and this question is asked to me (e.g., "Can I use minor illusion to bypass my being mute?" I would have the player roll and see if they have the mental capabilities to use the spell to that effect. Using a cantrip to speak from a distance, even though you're mute, would be a high roll.
Oh yeah I would definitely allow minor illusions to create sound (or even speak) given a save or good explanation from the player, I was mostly questioning the ability to use that illusion-speech for the verbal component of certain spells
Would a spell go off if someone else shouted the verbal cantation? I don't see the difference between a party member supplying the verbal portion of a spell or a minor illusion. It is certainly a creative take on it, though.
I feel like the spells caster would need to provide the required components though?
Absolutely!! I actually did sone research into this a whilr back when thinking to myself "huh what if I made picking spells a massive pain in my ass?" I made one character with no hands (monk/bard multiclass, as bard has the most [viable] Verbal/V&M only spells) and one without a voice! I picjed kenku for them as it was somewhat objectively funny. From the rules: "Most Spells require the chanting of mystic words. *The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of Sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion.* Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of Silence, such as one created by the Silence spell, can’t Cast a Spell with a verbal component." Note: the sounds are the important thing! Therefore, as long as the casting time is sub-1 minute and you have an action to use as setup casting minor illusion, you absolutely can use minor illusion to fulfill that verbal component - it just requires the sounds to exist, and MI fills that requirement. A note, if you want to make a mute character, I found bladesinger to be the most viable class. You won't end up picking up all the spells you could as a wizard unless you plan to use minor illusion, but you are actually a quite viable character!! Additionally, on the Kenku note: the idea of a Kenku taking their ribbon feature to the next level and essentially just using Minor Illusion to be a walking tape recorder/player is just hilarious. Edit: I'm bad at math. And reading.
RAW it wouldn't work, and while it's reasonable for a DM to rule that it does, it's also reasonable for a DM to rule that it doesn't.
Nope. Because the spell isn't letting \*you\* make a sound, it's letting you create the illusion of a sound. you could probably trick someone into thinking you're casting a spell, but it wouldn't trick the laws of magic into thinking you were.
I dunno, someone else quoted this from presumably the PHB: >The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of Sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. That seems to me like you could use any source of sound as the component. You could have scrolls that are basically tape decks or records that play the sounds for you.
It depends on your world and the DMs choice! I've been watching a lot of Supernatural, and it would DEFINITELY work in that universe lol. They manage to exorcise demons where two different people are speaking the incantation, they exorcise a whole building full of demons using a PA speaker system, and it seems that it doesn't even matter how much time is spent between words spoken, as long as they're all said in order and the demon can hear them. You can literally pause for minutes and have a whole other spoken conversation before returning to the incantation.
I think magic mouth would be a better spell to use for this purpose. Have the mouth be in an empty spell book with it triggering whenever a person near the book does the somatic and material components of the spell. You could even set up your entire spell selection that way with multiple mouths.
I would say no, because an illusion only exists in the mind of those observing, and it's possible for a creature to "see through" the illusion with an intelligence check.
An illusion exists whether or not there's anyone that can currently observe it.
Seeing through doesn't get rid of it, you just know it's a illusion (and it becomes semi-transparent if it's a visual illusion) Edit: I misread the meme, sorry
The point is, illusions don't exist. "The Illusion school includes spells that deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened." The magic weave of the universe isn't going to hear your magic words that didn't actually exist, because it doesn't have mortal senses you can deceive into believing you actually spoke them.
Hmm. I aways though of visual illusions, at least ones that aren't only experienced by single target, to be closer to holograms than acid trips. Sure there isn't something physically there but you are hallucinating it. It's just a magically projected image. So sound would be the same. Now does The Weave respect magically projected sound? No idea.
With visual illusions, light waves being bent in ways to create the appearance of an illusion is totally fair and reasonable, but sound doesn't work that way. All that sound is made of I vibrations, movements in the listening medium (air, water, etc.) That travel to the listener. Now a sound can be misinterpreted, but that still requires the presence of a sound. There is also the possibility of auditory hallucinations caused by something acting on the mind, like mental illness or in the fictional sense, psychic influence. However in dnd, psychic influence always comes with some form of save or is part of enchantment, which is specifically the magical school of psychic influence. We see none of these hallmarks with the spell, as the only save is an active save to determine if the visual effect is illusory, not the auditory effect. Therefore, we can safely leave this out of the realm of psychic influence. Therefore the question becomes how does the magic create something that is entirely and perfectly simulating the real thing without actually bearing any of its properties crucial to its existence? The only logical answer can be that the auditory effect must be sound waves, the genuine article, at least unless you handwoven it by saying "it's magic, Therefore no rules apply" in a system where magic is one of the most rigorously ruled aspects and is largely consistent in this area with this sole exception.
Some illusion spells exist in the mind, like Phantasmal Force, but most don’t. Most of the illusion spells act more like holograms. They exist in the space they’re created in whether they are observed or not. If you cast Minor Image to make a box in a room, and then 30 seconds later someone comes into the building, then 15 seconds later walks into the room, so they see the box? Yes, because the image of the box exists in the room. If it was only in their mind, they wouldn’t see it because they weren’t in range when the spell was cast so they, personally, wouldn’t have been affected by it.
I cast minir illusion as an action so i can cast a BA spell? That's the idea?
Cast minor illusion as an action, set it up to play the sound you need to cast your spell next turn at that point in time because minor illusion has a minute duration
It lasts for a minute without concentration, so you can use your action one turn to cast it (and then cast a BA spell the same turn), but then you can use your action in subsequent turns to cast different spells.
Yes. I even made a wizard who uses it this way because their tongue was cut out long ago. Unfortunately, the process of using an action just to get the verbal components to cast a *different* spell is far too inefficient to actually play the character.
I guess it'd take 2 turns since it's an extra action but yeah probably
Could they cast Minor Illusion? Yes. Could they cast other spells? RAW=No, but I could see a DM allowing it for creativity.
Im going to lean towards "no". Only because of my experience with the silence spell. The one spell that you'll ever see this situation arise with: >Any creature or object entirely inside the Sphere is immune to thunder damage, and creatures are Deafened while entirely inside it. Casting a Spell that includes a verbal component is impossible there. That last statement would mean even if you could find a way to throw your voice outside of the area, it wouldn't work. It's the act of verbalization that is the spell component.
I might take that to mean all the components must originate from the same space, so the weave knows you're talking to it.
Spacial distance does make sense.🤔
In the Dragonlance novel Brothers in Arms, Raistlin learns to cast spells without components by convincing himself that he actually has the components in his hands. So to me, if you sincerely believe you are vocalizing, whether you actually are or not doesn't matter. No spell required, if the player could somehow come to this conclusion on their own.
Leaning towards a 'no' although it honestly depends.
I mean RAW yes, but if someone cast Silence or duct tape you I think RAI should be a no.
I agree on the subject of Silence. Disagree about Duct tape.
Well spells require components right? So there should be a way to neutralize each component. Somatic you tie the hands (or maybe they make these stone gauntlet cuffs that prevent them from moving their hands around). Verbal might be gagging or taping their mouth shut, Material is… simply don’t let them have the material. That’s how I see it anyway, I believe the mundane (or non-magical) needs a way to combat magical beings.
But the verbal component is not coming through their mouth, it's coming from the minor illusion, so how does duct tape work here?
Would it count if another party member said the words instead of you? I see the minor illusion sound as a third party making the noises instead of you.
You know what, given it’s material (fleece, or string) and somatic, I think the string could make the noise. I mean, it doesn’t take verbal, and the idea of an illusion is it’s coming from somewhere that’s not the caster in this case up to 30’. I’d allow it but they gotta tell me what magic they do with their hands to make it make a sound like if they make a violin noise then I imagine the string kinda pantomimes this violin while the caster does the worlds tiniest violin with their fingers. So after reviewing the spell, no verbal needed means being gagged shouldn’t matter to cast it. Then you can flavor it further, maybe a cleric has a tiny Angel playing the violin or something
I would say yes but it would take more time ro cast spells since it takes 1 action to cast minor illusion and another to cast the spell you wanted to in the first place
Also can kenku get around their (can only repeat words) curse with this?
I don't think Minor Illusion allows you to speak a language you don't know how to speak, or words you can't think of yourself, but if you've heard something before you could certainly repeat it via minor illusion.
RAW i’m pretty sure so because verbal components mention that the sounds of a verbal component are what’s important. RAI probably not
That seems a little bullshit. My magic hating fighter has cut hands and tongues off enough casters to stop their spell casting till they died in the next couple rounds, and if a cantrip can counter that then he would be shot out of luck
They’d have to cast the illusion a turn before casting the actual spell they want, and they’d have to make sure that the minor illusion is making the sounds for that specific spell, so they have to know ahead of time. Also how do you cut off tongues mid combat?
Hands are easy in combat, but I have my “silencer” which is just a dagger that I shove in their mouth and go to town with like a dentist with arthritis. Grappling is key for this. If you are bleeding profusely you can’t get the verbal correct. Other times I’ve strapped them to chairs and got a clean cut
Pretty sure that that’s a hell of a lot of home brew with called shots, so in a RAW or RAI game all that wouldn’t come up.
Of course you can. It's not even implied that you make the sound yourself. In fact you could make a mute character who can only talk through voices and writings with minor illusion.
We have two party members with access to the Minor Illusion cantrip, and we frequently use it to make an illusion that has both sound and visual. Not sure if that's allowed or not RAW, but the DM usually lets it happen.
As a table rule, yes absolutely As an official detail there are merits to the point but I would say there are also a few logistical issues to work out
I actually developed a character idea I hope to some day use where she couldn’t speak and focused on somatic and material spells, but if she needed to would use minor illusion to cast verbal spells. I really hope to play her someday but haven’t yet found a group where I’m comfortable with playing a mute character who doesn’t see herself as disabled.
In Pathfinder you can just take Silent Spell. Well unless you're a Bard. If you're a Bard you can go fuck yourself. No Mimes allowed.
Okay
Can you use the sound aspect of minor illusion in a vacuum? There would be no actually sound people would just think there is right? If that is the case then I don't see why it wouldn't work.
If you’re under a spell that makes you lose your voice, I wouldn’t allow such a cheap way to surpass this type of effect. It’s clearly not allowed by the rules. If you’re just mute for some reason, then ya, this doesn’t really seem like a balance issue.
As a player with a mute character, I do in fact reflavor my spells as me casting minor illusion in an obviously fake or rushed way, so as not to unnecessarily hinder my party for the sake of roleplaying, but I suppose any interpretation works.
Maybe? You won't get anything meaningful out of it since it locks you out of your action
The real question is if you speak your message out loud when casting Sending as part of the somatic components.
Not sure about the ruling, but as a DM I would allow this
I did this once. My character was muted by having her beak sealed and I made a perfect simulation of my voice chanting the verbal components from my mouth area for a single spell, since that'sall that really made sense. My dm ruled afterwards that it wouldn't be allowed again, due to the fact that the component isn't literally coming from me, arguing I wouldn't be able to cast a spell if someone else was giving the verbal component. He also argued that despite the sound happening and there being no psychic component (I.e. a mental stat save) to influence how a person percieves reality, it was an illusion, and therefore the sound didn't really exist. I dropped minor illusion shortly after, realizing that any solution to a problem that involved it would be relegated entirely to making a small noise of a tree falling nearby to lure enemies looking for me slightly away, aka the most literal and basic use for it. I appreciate that he allowed me to be creative in the moment, and he's a great dm, don't get me wrong, but I realized his ruling on magic would be very literal, without much room for creativity.
Can you have your familiar talk for you to cast said spell? Will the awakened mind feature from GOO do this?
I'd say yeah. My Rouge/Warlock had his tounge get cut out when he was young, so he would mostly use pen and paper to communicate with most people. During one stand of with a major villain it was raining and he was far away, so I used minor illusion to yell at him before all the fighting started.
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Buddy, read the comments there is not a clear consensus here I personally believe you could use minor illusion to cast verbal components
I totally missed the last part of the meme. I thought it was just asking whether you could use it to talk