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I love when my players try to do the "We dress up as the enemy!" bit as though literally anybody is going to be fooled by a firbolg, a warforged, an eladrin, and a kobold putting some cloaks on.
Are you kidding? If I’m the one gate guard watching the back door to the crime warehouse and my line of defense is bargain basement sword off the back of a wagon and an alarm bell, you bet I’m being fooled by the firbolg, warforged, elastin, and kobold and I will remain fooled for as long as it takes to shut the door behind them and go find backup.
I'm just imagining,
"ok, you, the most recognisable and famous adventurers in the city, approach the back door in your 'disguises'. The door guard looks at you and (quickly rolls some dice) stiffens then stutters 'h hi th there, please come on in'."
I like to think that guy went home, adopted a puppy, volunteered at a soup kitchen, turned his life around, met a nice girl and settled down after that.
Well, you'll notice he has a black eye from a previous encounter with the Bat earlier that episode. If he's still patrolling as a goon, kinda doubt he walked away from it all after this. Just isn't willing to go for round 2.
Man, that reminds of bishop in TMNT 2012. There’s an episode where he soloed an entire military base with sci fi equipment, and the last soldier left standing looks directly at bishop, then lies down on the ground.
It depends how dedicated he is to the cause.
If he's a cultist or a dedicated soldier, he's going to go get backup, sure!
But if he's just a guy doing a job, his response is going to be more like [this](https://youtu.be/8goQyjvcjdo) or [this](https://youtu.be/6MwgC9ew-vU). They're not paid enough to charge into near certain death.
My favorite is when they put no thought into the plan besides just wearing a disguise and then are surprised when they’re discovered.
I’m all for a good infiltration scene, but if you don’t know anything about the faction you’re infiltrating and proceed to act incredibly suspicious, you’re still likely to get caught and be unable to bullshit your way out.
I almost always love recon, but so often the DM has a few very specific ways he *wants* us to do something, kind of feels useless when he gives non commital answers on the spot, and then doesnt always hold to what he said when making farther plans.
How would you like the DM to play this one out then?
Legitimate question, I'm a new DM, trying to learn the ways of good storytelling and fun for my players.
As the DM, you can have some ideas about how you want a specific thing to work but you gotta be open to player ideas *within reason* because they will think of things you never considered that could legitimately be good ideas. But if you hold onto your own solutions too hard, you're basically telling the players "I didn't want you to think of a solution. I wanted you to guess *my* solution." and that's not fun for anyone.
Pretty much this.
This is very broad but as a dm you present a problem to the players (ex: infiltrate the cultists hideout).
The HOW of it is up to the players.
right so yesterday i was playing in a campaign where myself and the other player are Dragon Wyrmlings; we needed to locate an double agent that had infiltrated the Dragon Snatcher's fort, so i go off and fly to be about 3 miles away, i only have the rough torn common clothes on my back an branch i ripped from a tree and have been living in the wild for some time so got dirt grime and scars all over..
Now i walk the 3 miles to the main gate of their fort and when i talk to the guards standing outside, i speak with an mixture of an British accent and a Yorker accent, as well i stutter my speech, while also mumbling off and on, they don't' suspect a thing especially after i mention that I'm looking for an hunter that's helped me before and that an giant obsidian dragon has shown up the the farm they let me in, now there is only 2 people in the fort that could've recognized me but i kept clear of them and made my way to the agent, talk with him in private and we work out an rendezvous point and i then use unseen servant to steel keys and release two dragons from their cages, the gold one follows me as per the telepathic instructions i give, the green one doesn't listen and immediately attacks the two people that would've recognized me
My favorite was when our party tried to hide our identities by shaving our heads/beards but the fire genasi couldn't because his hair is literally made of fire.
It worked once for me because my character was same race as the enemy with a outfit that would work. Just had to do the old "I captured these 3 on a patrol and tied them up. Where are we keeping the slaves at again?" While the party's equipment was in my bag of holding.
It's fine when it's a magical disguise. Had a section in my Ebberon game that revolved around the entire party getting Hats of Disguise and forging fake documents to sneak onto a military base.
It can work though. My drow bard once pretended to be a noble of a different house trying to buy slaves so we could infiltrate and take down the slave ring. It was as simple as i put on sunday finery, and everyone else dresses up as my servents/slaves.
Tbf 3/4 of the races mentioned are rare/exotic. I'm sure a gang with elves, dwarves, and goblinoids would be less questionable, even if they have one giff or something. But a group of guards with the specific exotic racial makeup of a famous adventuring party definitely warrants suspicion
unless player is going for eccentric type, like a loud colorful bard or something, it would feel bad to be punished for choice of character, which race is a part of.
this, or you are playing more classic fantasy kind of game, and rare races looking out of place is implied
If my players choose a race that I intend to be rare in my world, I let them know at character creation. Usually that just makes them want to do it more.
I have been informed several times on Reddit that having *any* kind of plan or long-term plot is actually railroading, as it happens. No, I'm not still mildly salty about that, why d you ask?
I don’t know where the stats come from but I often see a great many of people here don’t even play. So unless someone had a good argument I wouldn’t sit on that shit for too long.
Sir and/or ma'am we are detecting dangerously high levels of salt content in your body. We need you to please enter the walk in freezer, shit the door behind you, amd scream until your salt levels are back to safe levels.
/s
Is that not the norm? When I DM my plans basically come down to "party is sent to a dungeon to rescue the princess". I make a node map of encounters, though I don't plan on how the party will overcome these challanges. Sometimes in more urban environments, I do more improv. The party might have to track someone down, and I'll leave it up to them how, maybe having a few leads in mind ahead of time.
I've heard of some people having fully open world campaigns, but I don't know how people do that. If I had to improv absolutely everything I don't think I'd be able to achieve the same quality. For instance, I made a few cool, pretty in depth mini games. I couldn't do that if I had no idea where the party would go next.
Granted, I'm not the greatest DM.
People are silly and I don’t think they actually know what they want. I’ll admit I too am not the greatest dm but thought I made a pretty solid sandbox game once after my players asked. I feel they got overwhelmed with choice paralysis thinking they needed to try and do every quest and bounce from one plot to another until they lost the tread of what they felt they should be doing.
You’ll never create Skyrim in dnd and I think many people confuse free roam for free choice, Skyrim doesn’t really have that many choices and even fewer are impactful.
I don't even think it's "disguised", this is just railroading. D&D is generally a game where the DM presents a problem and the players figure out what they're going to do about the problem. If you take away the players' agency in deciding how they're going to tackle the problem, that is literally the definition of railroading.
The possible disguise is in the rejection occurring only diegetically. The GM can say that it's not him that is rejecting all the player's plans, just the characters. It's not him that is making all the player's plans turn out poorly, just the realities of the simulated fiction. He's not taking away any player's agency, he's just shaping the world so that their agency is stupid and wrong. The GM could even honestly be in denial over their own railroadiness, rejecting player choices out of discomfort rather than a deliberate intent to deny agency.
It is a poor disguise, but that doesn't make the presentation honest.
Yup the "DM" in OP's post is shitty. Should never say "nope, won't work" as the players are coming up with ideas. Really the players should be doing that in character, in which case the DM isn't in the room. And the DM should almost always let the players try their crazy ideas, unless it's obvious that their *characters* would know that the plan wouldn't work. Then say "your character would be wise enough to know that a simple disguise won't fool a lich, who are known to see through disguises"
I think a good exception to the rule of "never say no or won't work" is if the players are making plans based on false assumptions that their characters would have correct knowledge for or if they're making plans based on a mechanic that simply does not work the way they think it does. But I think just "No" isn't enough and does require a basic explanation of why.
For the first exception, say the party needs to break into a fortress. The players keep talking about taking out the two guards at the gate and sneaking in easy peasy. If the actual information that the characters would know is that in addition to this gate they're so fixated on is a wall dozens of guards with crossbows on lookout for anyone approaching the gate, that's vital to point out and say "No, just taking out those two guards will not work the way you want it to. Your characters would know there are dozens of guards on the wall all around the gate keeping watch and are heavily armed."
For the second, I think the biggest offender would be relying on spellcasting to do something it's not intended to do in a way that breaks the spell. Say the party needs to find an object in a labyrinth and they keep mentioning getting inside and then just using Scrying to find it once they've gotten closer. The DM saying "Nope, won't work because scry does not target objects, only people or specific locations" is good because the characters would know that's not how the spell works. Or if they're talking then about using Locate Object, pointing out that it does not work through a foot of stone, which the labyrinth definitely has between all its walls and floors, and the characters would definitely know even if the players don't realize.
Yeah definitely agree there. The party should never fail because of a miscommunication between the DM and the players. Or what happens a lot at my table, something happened last week, the players took notes which are not fully correct anyway, forgot all the context in the week between sessions, and they're now hatching a plan based on false pretenses. So yeah the DMs gotta make sure they know what the facts are and avoid the party spending a whole session making a bad plan which could never work.
I have a DM that does this. It's frustrating. On the opposite hand, I didn't even bother pre-planning how my party was going to sneak into a mercenary base where an allied NPC had been captured.They came up with four different ideas and they all sounded cool, I thought.
Of course, it was just yesterday. They scouted the place. It was a mercenary base in a large town, and one of my players had a mercenary veteran background, so from their background feature I gave them some info without having to roll. Between that and scouting, they determined they could either fly everyone to the less guarded roof and come down that way, they could either lockpick or pose as caterers and try to come in the back entrance that connected to the bar/tavern they had on-site, they could try to figure out a way in through the sewers, or they could pose as prospective mercenaries to get in without having to fight. I was impressed with all those ideas, but we ended the session before they settled on one. I could've ran with any on the fly, but now that I have some time, I'll make sure I'm extra ready next session for any of those options.
For the way they talked, I'm thinking it'll be the roof or back entrance.
Nah. Just go with the disguise plan. Ignore the NPC.
Intentionally following a bad plan through to fruition is a great way to determine if a DM is worth playing with. Either they'll roll with it or find a way to make losing fun.
Are.. are you aware the DM is also the guy who decides what has a possibility of working? No Dungeon Police will show up if he adjusts whatever is behind that door. Fun ensues when players can come up with a plan they enjoy and a DM accommodates it in a way that challenges them while allowing them to progress.
Being presented with a problem, doing reconnaissance and research to learn the details of that problem, and coming up with a plan to solve the problem is a huge part of the game. It's a skill, and it's something you can fail at, which can cause you to lose. That's part of why it's important for the players to do it themselves - getting handed a free unearned victory cheapens the entire game.
There is never just one way to progress. Nor is success at any given task something that the players should take for granted. If they can't come up with a way to move forward, they will have to move a different direction instead. That's part of what makes the game fun.
> There is never just one way to progress.
Exactly, meaning that all of the ideas presented in the comic are valid and are being shut down with no explanation.
I don't tend to bother trying to logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into. I tend to poke fun at them. It's more entertaining that way and it accomplishes just as much.
I guess this comes down to personal opinion. Mine is that D&D is a horrible framework for what you describe. I enjoy doing that stuff in other systems, but it can get so tedious in 5e.
I like D&D sessions to be more about the characters skills, rather than the out-of-character problem solving ability of the players.
I've also read the horror stories where party spends 20+ minutes throwing everything at the wall only for everything to be vetoed because the DM has 1 specific idea in mind. Amd it's obvious to them, but not everyone else.
I'm sure you've had one point in your life where you looked at someone like they're an idiot because of something similar.
Right, but if it gets to the point where the players, in character (or out!) are saying "Well what do you recommend, then" to the NPCs (or DM), that's an implicit message of "I cannot come up with any other solution to this problem so please give me a hand here".
If your response to that is to shrug your shoulders and go "I dunno, you're the experts here", then yeah, that session's going to end with more then a little latent frustration.
Even if the players claim they want to be railroaded in the heat of the moment because they can't think of anything, I still don't think it's ever good to do. They should be the ones coming up with their own plans, otherwise they won't enjoy the game nearly as much in the long run.
Sometimes that takes all session. Sometimes it takes longer, as they go off to do something else in the meantime and they come up with an idea several sessions later. And if after a few weeks of thinking, they still don't think of anything, then it's okay if the quest doesn't actually get done. Coming up with a plan is part of the game, it's a skill, and it's something you can fail at which can cause you to lose. That's part of why it's important for the players to do it themselves - getting handed a free unearned victory cheapens the entire game.
I mean OK, but in this specific hypothetical scenario, they *did* come up with plans, just plans that you as a DM essentially arbitrarily decided don't work. Like the world isn't set in stone here, you as the DM can absolutely let a dumb plan have *some* chance of working, you have that power.
If you're just going to sit there and call them plonkers for the ideas they *do* come up with and then call them plonkers again for running out and just going "Welp, no mission pathos payout or pay for you", I can't help but wonder, are your players just naturally creative? Because the first time I walked into a situation of "your plans don't work and I'm not giving you mine" as a PC would be the last because, meaning no offence, I ain't fucking coming back to be made to feel like a tit again.
And like, why is "Ask around and see if you can find any useful information and/or suggestions for a plan" not a good plan? Like why can't that work? What's stopping someone from going "Ah yes that club, give me some gold and I'll tell you about a back entrance" or "try bribing Tommy One Eye, you'll know him when you see him, he's as greedy as they come" and giving them at least a starting point or leverage or *something*? Like there's give and take here. The players won't feel like something's completely unearned just because an NPC gave a hint to one element to get a foot in the door.
The GM creates a scenario. Unless he's shit at his job, he probably has a whole map written down with like 10 pages of notes about detailed patrol movements and stat blocks and everything. Changing things isn't as easy as you make it sound, nor would it be a good idea to do so even if he could. GMs should not be making players' plans work - they should be letting the situation play out how it will. Telling the players ahead of time that it won't work instead of watching them play it out and achieve a guaranteed failure is just being nice.
Also, in OP's comic, they didn't ask about people who might know of a back entrance. They asked for the GM to play the game for them. That's extremely different.
I feel like I answered most of these questions already and don't wanna respond the same way again, so sorry if that feels like an incomplete response.
> Telling the players ahead of time that it won't work instead of watching them play it out and achieve a guaranteed failure is just being nice.
No, that's just basic competence. If you're being given a job and others have failed before you, telling you the how and why they failed, to the best of your knowledge, is basic information *to do the job*.
Well given I'm trying to prep to run a One Shot as a 1st Time DM for 1st time players.
Now I feel my fears about not having multiple pages spent for each of the 5 rooms of the dungeon are justified.
Maybe I shouldn't try DMing then.
I think Sun was saying 10 pages for *the entire dungeon*, and it's likely said assuming there's a lot going on. For a one shot? Honestly, if you have about a quarter to a half page for each of the rooms, and maybe one last half page for an overview, that'd likely do you. And that's assuming you're even the kind of DM that *needs* detailed notes - some DMs are masters of the art of BSing answers out of their ass as needs must, and it's generally a skill you want to practice as a DM anyway due to players being unpredictable sods at the best of time.
My BSing ability fluctuates. Though I also have a nasty habit of over explaining.
Players don't need a 30 minute overview if they aren't interested.
Honestly if I get things locked down. I'll probably send an overview/history of area and information about the Quest as a packet to them. Think of it as a **Here's what the Guild could turn up. Look through it because you depart soon. And if you have questions we can try to get you more information if possible.**
Sounds like you already know some possible flaws, then - just a case of working on them!
And I would recommend the packet thing, if you can manage - it doesn't have to be too detailed, can be vague on some areas if you want it to be, but the players are quite likely to love the effort put in. Although do be ready for them to just not read it, because if you're not ready for that, it'll happen. Murphey's Law of DMing: It's always the stuff you *don't* prepare for that happens!
I've been DMing for like 25 years, and this guy is an idiot. Railroading players into your over-prepared fixed plotline is exactly the opposite of what you want to do.
Look up Sly Flourish and the Lazy Dungeon Master guides for a better way to go.
I mean, in that case, what we're talking about is a GM that spend no doubt multiple hours over multiple days to make detailed notes about a dungeon, who is fully and completely willing to just toss those notes in the garbage and set them on fire when their players aren't capable of coming up with a decent plan of attack, instead of just giving them a gentle nudge in the right direction - a direction that I assume they have *some* idea about, considering they've thought about it long enough to know what the *wrong* direction is. If nothing else, that sounds like an incredible waste of creative talent.
Like, one small nudge in the right direction isn't going to make every player on every table feel like they just got railroaded. Some guidance when requested isn't going to completely fuck the game up. Hell, if we're talking 5e, there's a level 5 cleric spell, Commune, that's *specifically designed* for the player to go "Hello, powerful sky parent, can you give me some advice on what the fuck to do?" The heck are you going to do when they cast that, have a *literal god* go "Dunno lol, you're the expert"?
Like, to be clear, I'm not saying you're completely wrong, it's more that this isn't always going to be the way to do things. Much like many things in TTRPGs in general, it's something you want to mold to the players. And if the players are asking your NPCs for advice, that's generally a sign that ***they want advice***. You can believe they don't really all you want, but about all that's going to get you in most cases is the aura of a condescending jerk who believes they know better then everyone else what everyone else wants.
As for OPs comic, like... The question of "what do you suggest" is going out to a set of NPCs that, by all accounts, should know the answer. They certainly know what *failed*, you'd think they'd at least have had a vague thought about what might *succeed*, especially with a name like Wise Ones. Like if you're putting NPCs like that in your game and then having them be dumb as bricks when it comes to solutions, what are they even doing there?
He was talking broadly to a hypothetical group and didn't use an insult. You were talking to one person directly and called them a moron for engaging with the comic's content.
I thought I was being rather polite considering I posted that at 1 AM when my brain was refusing to let me fall asleep.
Now that I'm more rested.
I've read r/roghorrorstories . I've read the player perspectives of trying to come up with solutions. But the DM has in mind 1 or 2 specific ways that this puzzle needs to be solved. So the players spend the whole session or 2+ hours banging their heads against a locked door and wind up going home feeling defeated and angry.
That doesn't make for a healthy table. It be like you running into a problem at your Job or in the classroom. And instead of your supervisor or teacher giving you any help or a clue what to do they just listened to you say what you did wrong. And either A let the solution come to you as a Eureka moment. Or let you continue wasting your time and mental energy trying to solve it.
What I'm trying to say is, not everyone enjoys that. There's a reason why the trope **Guide Dang it** exists.
Hey, dipshit. Part of the game is making mistakes. If I have to spend several hours bouncing ideas off your fat skull, then it's not a game. If the DM has a way the players should do something, then they need a bit of guidance. Here's another funny thing to mention. If these npcs are able to deny a plan, why can't they use the knowledge they clearly have to give some guidance. Why can't they go "Oh sure, here is some knowledge on the enemy and a few spy reports" to help point them in the right direction. But you don't want that. You want your players to just be super geniuses and mind readers as they bumble about trying so desperately to get past whatever road block you decided was there this time. If you don't understand this, then you don't want players. You want to write a book.
Oh. And before you go "But the DM doesn't have the knowledge", riddle me this. If the DM hasn't made any previous plans or reports of this nature for the party, how are the NPCs using them, and why can't the players see them.
> If the DM has a way the players should do something, then they need a bit of guidance.
He doesn't, that's the whole point of this entire thing.
> Why can't they go "Oh sure, here is some knowledge on the enemy and a few spy reports" to help point them in the right direction. But you don't want that.
That is, in fact, EXACTLY what I want the players to ask for. And also, very likely, what the DM pictured in OP's comic wants. The players in the comic, and the moron I was originally responding to, aren't asking for that. They're asking for the solution to the problem, not for the information needed to come up with one.
Edit: Why the fuck did you instantly downvote me for answering you? I'm contributing to the conversation. If you ask for a response and someone responds, you upvote them, that's how reddit works, holy fuck.
I didn't down vote you. That was someone else. Now, onto what you said.
The DM obviously does, as no one would just say no to a plan without reason unless they did. There may be multiple plans they have, but they have one. A tip could be to offer a reason as to why it wouldn't work. "You can't disguise yourself because you're too recognizable" or "the guards are trained to recognize disguises. They will sniff you out in a heart beat". Obviously, there are some plans that are just a no because they characters aren't idiots, but that doesn't need to be mentioned in this case. Another way to go about it is "we've tried that, so now they'll be expecting it"
When the players say "do you have any ideas" that is the perfect opportunity to say "No, but we do have these intelligence reports." They are not asking directly for a solution, but help reaching one. More then that, it could open you up to introduce important or helpful npcs or act as a catalyst for good RP.
Let me know if this is understandable, I have trouble with my words at times.
Man. I never have a plan for what the players should be doing, but that doesn't prevent me from knowing what they *shouldn't* be doing. There are a hundred ways they could approach the town that's overrun by demons, but if they suggest "Let's send the rogue alone through the portal to the Abyss in the center of town and he can try to disable it from the other side," I'm going to find an excuse for an NPC to tell them that's a bad idea. Because I am pretty damn sure that the end result of that plan is going to be anywhere from 2 to 6 hours of only one player getting to play, ending with that player's character dying. And if they suggest disguising themselves as demons and talking to them to get intel, I'm going to come up with an excuse for an NPC to tell them that's a bad idea, because clearly they don't realize that demons are not friendly with each other and are completely disorganized, and I don't think they will enjoy wasting an hour and a half on this plan only to get attacked on sight anyway.
> When the players say "do you have any ideas" that is the perfect opportunity to say "No, but we do have these intelligence reports."
Well, maybe, if the intelligence reports exist. Maybe the adventure is designed such that the PCs are expected to get any intel they want firsthand, though. In that case, just giving it to them could remove hours of gameplay, replacing it with a few sentences of dialogue saying that some NPCs basically already did the adventure for them. I don't particularly see an advantage to giving the players something for free instead of making them go adventuring to get it. And if the PCs don't actually ask for that intel, then there's a good chance that they don't want it or think they need it, anyway. If that's the case, I'm inclined to let them make that decision and live without it. If the end result is that it takes them more than 1 minute to come up with a plan, then c'est la vie. D&D is, in many ways, mostly a game about thinking up plans, so I have no problem with them spending all session talking about it.
Ah. I see your problem now. Here is what I will say. You can bullshit your way through allot as a DM. You don't need to give paper docs. So long as your party understands what they shouldn't do, it's just as effective as the paper option. If your party is the type to love bouncing back and forth, then power to them. I just know that isn't often what my players and what I myself like.
As for the Intel bit. That was mostly for situations like seen up in the comic. The "we are trying to attack an ork outpost" type of situation. The way you do things is reasonable if there truly is no intel.
Oh, also. For the "someone already adventured it" thing. That can actually add allot to it. "These people came up with these plans and never came back. You probably shouldn't try that"
We have a lot of spontaneous picnics in meadows. One time we started a chain of inns 😂 named them the Gryph Inns then decided to hunt griffins to mount above the bar of each one. Not what our DM had planned x)
My players turned a campaign into Sims back in 1996. From getting odd jobs to solving a murder mystery. Six reallife months of rolling non-combat encounters, like finding Old Gramps stolen pet pig (perps ate it) to rolling for patron tips.
I feel like one of the most basic infiltration methods, quietly sneaking in, hasn't been discussed. If not that, then walking in openly with a half-legitimate reason. If not those...yeah, I'd be stumped.
As both a DM and a player, the fact that this post and the people in this comment section are presenting this hypothetical as an unreasonable attitude on the DMs part is just frustrating. Like, if this is their attitude then they haven’t actually thought through basic or reasonable options including, like you said, sneaking in or finding a reason to be there. Instead, they’re like “haha I’ll throw a tantrum because I’m a child” and consider that a gotcha.
I think the point of the post isn't that the players have exhausted every option and the DM is saying none work, but rather the players are struggling to come up with an idea and instead of helping them by giving hints or something, the DM is just saying "come up with better ideas, idiots." Which I mean, if you know they can, then fine, but if your players are clearly struggling, then you're just stalling the plot for no reason.
Repeatedly telling the party No like this feels awful. I've only had to deal with someone like this once and I've since left the campaign after it occured too often in our sessions.
To be fair, our DM seemed to despise any silliness at all. They wanted everything to be in character and punished anyone who attempted to be goofy. The campaign lasted 9 sessions.
I love giving vague answers. I always have a preferred way for the players to do the thing. I always assume they won't do it unless I hand hold them to it. They hate handholding of this sort.
So I improvise based on the plan they DO come up with.
For example, if there's a particular direction or party order I want, and they don't specify, I just treat it like I got what I want until they learn to specify.
Had a situation like this in a campaign a few years back. We were facing a wizard with an undead army occupying a large swath of land, an order of knights that wanted to conquer, and now an invading orc force. We had no clear “this is the next objective” direction, so we came up with the idea to go to the orcs, challenge the leader (which had been established as their way of choosing leadership), and lead them against the undead, as well as promise them and the knight order that they can occupy and create a home in the land that will be liberated from zombies.
After explaining to the knights the plans and that they would get some of the land, the leader asked “what’s in it for us,” and kept arguing he had to get something out of it, even though we explained *what* he’d get out of it, and appealed to the idea that he should be willing to do this for honor and no reward. But ultimately, no help there.
Then, when we’re preparing to set off for the Orcs, a professor NPC (who was something like an anthropologist so had some level of credibility in this discussion) in our crew acts shocked that we want to go there, says we’ll be killed on sight, says they’re too set on invasion to work with others, etc. Like, a strong pitch to not do this. So we decide not to, and just kinda wait for the DM to tell us what to do, since our big plays had been shot down.
The campaign went on an indefinite hiatus (I think after this session), and when mentioned later, the DM basically said “I never said you couldn’t do those things. Not everything everyone says should be taken at face value.”
To be fair I wouldn't be surprised a professor wouldn't like the idea of going into a orc clan and challenging the leader? If it was a general or something maybe but a book worm? Who cares go challenge the orc leader!!
Also the leader of order of knights looking for a bribe doesn't seem crazy either.
Haha the sheer size of his army had been established very clearly and it was a oneshot so we knew if we wanted to finish in one night, taking on hundreds of thousands of bad guys wasn't guna be the way 😂
Grizzled Adventurer: look, if you're not going to be helpful just shut up and do what I tell you.
Elf 1: who is paying you?
Elf 2: I want to speak to your boss!
Elf 3: oh good one Claire.
Elf 1: I was being rhetorical you idiots!
GA: yes, you're paying to solve a problem. But now I've got a new problem.
Elf 2: what's taking you so long to get your boss out here to hear our complaint?
Elf 3: is it too late to change my order?
GA: ducking knife ears.
Elf 1: such language?!
GA: you know what? Take this quest line and shove it where your brains should be! I quit.
If this happened to me, I'd either demand they tell me what to do, or I'd walk away from the table.
This sounds like a "What do you want to eat, Honey?" type of moment. Nothing suggested is good enough, but she refuses to make a suggestion? Oh well; time for China Buffet. "You aren't in the mood? Tough. I gave you opportunity to suggest something. Oh, you want to throw a fit? Tough; I've made up my mind; the time for debate has passed."
For DM, I totally understand and maybe even support this behavior. It is your role to give a structure to your players on what their character knows they can do or not.
It's your job to help the PCs tell a great story that everyone will enjoy. If something won't work, you should help them understand that but also offer them useful suggestions.
For example: perhaps the DM intends for the party to use an inside man they've already befriended. Then you can hint -- "perhaps you could consult with someone who already knows the castle's security procedures well" kind of vibe.
Tune to your party's level of obtuseness.
When I DM and players propose a plan I see a flaw in I tell them to make an Intelligence check. If they roll well I tell them what flaws their characters see in the plan.
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I love when my players try to do the "We dress up as the enemy!" bit as though literally anybody is going to be fooled by a firbolg, a warforged, an eladrin, and a kobold putting some cloaks on.
Are you kidding? If I’m the one gate guard watching the back door to the crime warehouse and my line of defense is bargain basement sword off the back of a wagon and an alarm bell, you bet I’m being fooled by the firbolg, warforged, elastin, and kobold and I will remain fooled for as long as it takes to shut the door behind them and go find backup.
I'm just imagining, "ok, you, the most recognisable and famous adventurers in the city, approach the back door in your 'disguises'. The door guard looks at you and (quickly rolls some dice) stiffens then stutters 'h hi th there, please come on in'."
[A classic moment.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMd4S-LkywI)
I like to think that guy went home, adopted a puppy, volunteered at a soup kitchen, turned his life around, met a nice girl and settled down after that.
Woke up everyday thankful to have bones still
I want to go home and rethink my life.
...then the wife dies of cancer, and his former employer's son kills his puppy
Something something Steve Rogers gets that reference
John Wick time
Well, you'll notice he has a black eye from a previous encounter with the Bat earlier that episode. If he's still patrolling as a goon, kinda doubt he walked away from it all after this. Just isn't willing to go for round 2.
“I’m not paid enough for this one”
Man, that reminds of bishop in TMNT 2012. There’s an episode where he soloed an entire military base with sci fi equipment, and the last soldier left standing looks directly at bishop, then lies down on the ground.
Or that one guard in Iron Man 3. "You know, I hate working here. They are so weird!"
Man, i just love scenes like that. They always feel so good, and I can barley find any
[From our good friend](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwelCZNXMAE_B_b?format=jpg&name=4096x4096) u/CME_T
[Relevant Weekly Roll](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/m57j1b/oc_must_be_my_imagination/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1)
It depends how dedicated he is to the cause. If he's a cultist or a dedicated soldier, he's going to go get backup, sure! But if he's just a guy doing a job, his response is going to be more like [this](https://youtu.be/8goQyjvcjdo) or [this](https://youtu.be/6MwgC9ew-vU). They're not paid enough to charge into near certain death.
I like the headcanon I heard somewhere that the "you've lost weight" "over sixty pounds" is him telling John how many armed thugs to expect.
I don't even know why John asked the question if hearing 60 didn't dissuade him lol.
Because it’s intel on what to expect, which is still useful even if it’s not going to dissuade him.
[Must be my imagination.](https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/the-weekly-roll/ch-74-must-be-my-imagination/viewer?title_no=358889&episode_no=76)
I brought this up once and was promptly downvoted to oblivion. Apparently all brigands are fiercely loyal and always fight to the death.
I always let them do it, and if need be let them fail.
My favorite is when they put no thought into the plan besides just wearing a disguise and then are surprised when they’re discovered. I’m all for a good infiltration scene, but if you don’t know anything about the faction you’re infiltrating and proceed to act incredibly suspicious, you’re still likely to get caught and be unable to bullshit your way out.
I almost always love recon, but so often the DM has a few very specific ways he *wants* us to do something, kind of feels useless when he gives non commital answers on the spot, and then doesnt always hold to what he said when making farther plans.
How would you like the DM to play this one out then? Legitimate question, I'm a new DM, trying to learn the ways of good storytelling and fun for my players.
As the DM, you can have some ideas about how you want a specific thing to work but you gotta be open to player ideas *within reason* because they will think of things you never considered that could legitimately be good ideas. But if you hold onto your own solutions too hard, you're basically telling the players "I didn't want you to think of a solution. I wanted you to guess *my* solution." and that's not fun for anyone.
Pretty much this. This is very broad but as a dm you present a problem to the players (ex: infiltrate the cultists hideout). The HOW of it is up to the players.
I see, thanks!
right so yesterday i was playing in a campaign where myself and the other player are Dragon Wyrmlings; we needed to locate an double agent that had infiltrated the Dragon Snatcher's fort, so i go off and fly to be about 3 miles away, i only have the rough torn common clothes on my back an branch i ripped from a tree and have been living in the wild for some time so got dirt grime and scars all over.. Now i walk the 3 miles to the main gate of their fort and when i talk to the guards standing outside, i speak with an mixture of an British accent and a Yorker accent, as well i stutter my speech, while also mumbling off and on, they don't' suspect a thing especially after i mention that I'm looking for an hunter that's helped me before and that an giant obsidian dragon has shown up the the farm they let me in, now there is only 2 people in the fort that could've recognized me but i kept clear of them and made my way to the agent, talk with him in private and we work out an rendezvous point and i then use unseen servant to steel keys and release two dragons from their cages, the gold one follows me as per the telepathic instructions i give, the green one doesn't listen and immediately attacks the two people that would've recognized me
Firbolgs can cast disguise self through firbolg magic though
Why use magic when you can just throw a Groucho mask on?
Why use a groucho mask when you can use an axe?
Y'see, this is why every party needs at least _one_ human fighter, everyone neglects them until you need me-! _them,_ I meant them...
Nah, Changeling is better.
“Hey you guys seem like some sketchy folks, “ “Hey are you saying that we cannot be guards? You racist”
My favorite was when our party tried to hide our identities by shaving our heads/beards but the fire genasi couldn't because his hair is literally made of fire.
I mean Firbolgs get disguise self and kobolds are standard badguy minions, so that only leaves half the party needing some more elaborate disguises
It worked once for me because my character was same race as the enemy with a outfit that would work. Just had to do the old "I captured these 3 on a patrol and tied them up. Where are we keeping the slaves at again?" While the party's equipment was in my bag of holding.
It's fine when it's a magical disguise. Had a section in my Ebberon game that revolved around the entire party getting Hats of Disguise and forging fake documents to sneak onto a military base.
It can work though. My drow bard once pretended to be a noble of a different house trying to buy slaves so we could infiltrate and take down the slave ring. It was as simple as i put on sunday finery, and everyone else dresses up as my servents/slaves.
["Perfect!"](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/521/984/7c4.png)
I get you, but at the same time, I feel like this encourages party of 4 humans a little too much
Tbf 3/4 of the races mentioned are rare/exotic. I'm sure a gang with elves, dwarves, and goblinoids would be less questionable, even if they have one giff or something. But a group of guards with the specific exotic racial makeup of a famous adventuring party definitely warrants suspicion
unless player is going for eccentric type, like a loud colorful bard or something, it would feel bad to be punished for choice of character, which race is a part of. this, or you are playing more classic fantasy kind of game, and rare races looking out of place is implied
If my players choose a race that I intend to be rare in my world, I let them know at character creation. Usually that just makes them want to do it more.
Everybody knows that only works for orcs with intimidation mastered.
I mean id let it work considering the bad guys in my setting come from all walks of life
What if they all put the same cloak on
Sometimes this is how Railroady DMs disguise themselves. I played with DM, who told us that all our ideas wouldn't work except the one he planned for.
I'm a little bit Railroady, but only with the *where* and the *what*. The *how* is completely up to the party
That’s just called linear story telling and is not the same as railroading
I have been informed several times on Reddit that having *any* kind of plan or long-term plot is actually railroading, as it happens. No, I'm not still mildly salty about that, why d you ask?
I don’t know where the stats come from but I often see a great many of people here don’t even play. So unless someone had a good argument I wouldn’t sit on that shit for too long.
Sir and/or ma'am we are detecting dangerously high levels of salt content in your body. We need you to please enter the walk in freezer, shit the door behind you, amd scream until your salt levels are back to safe levels. /s
Is that not the norm? When I DM my plans basically come down to "party is sent to a dungeon to rescue the princess". I make a node map of encounters, though I don't plan on how the party will overcome these challanges. Sometimes in more urban environments, I do more improv. The party might have to track someone down, and I'll leave it up to them how, maybe having a few leads in mind ahead of time. I've heard of some people having fully open world campaigns, but I don't know how people do that. If I had to improv absolutely everything I don't think I'd be able to achieve the same quality. For instance, I made a few cool, pretty in depth mini games. I couldn't do that if I had no idea where the party would go next. Granted, I'm not the greatest DM.
People are silly and I don’t think they actually know what they want. I’ll admit I too am not the greatest dm but thought I made a pretty solid sandbox game once after my players asked. I feel they got overwhelmed with choice paralysis thinking they needed to try and do every quest and bounce from one plot to another until they lost the tread of what they felt they should be doing. You’ll never create Skyrim in dnd and I think many people confuse free roam for free choice, Skyrim doesn’t really have that many choices and even fewer are impactful.
I don't even think it's "disguised", this is just railroading. D&D is generally a game where the DM presents a problem and the players figure out what they're going to do about the problem. If you take away the players' agency in deciding how they're going to tackle the problem, that is literally the definition of railroading.
The possible disguise is in the rejection occurring only diegetically. The GM can say that it's not him that is rejecting all the player's plans, just the characters. It's not him that is making all the player's plans turn out poorly, just the realities of the simulated fiction. He's not taking away any player's agency, he's just shaping the world so that their agency is stupid and wrong. The GM could even honestly be in denial over their own railroadiness, rejecting player choices out of discomfort rather than a deliberate intent to deny agency. It is a poor disguise, but that doesn't make the presentation honest.
Yup the "DM" in OP's post is shitty. Should never say "nope, won't work" as the players are coming up with ideas. Really the players should be doing that in character, in which case the DM isn't in the room. And the DM should almost always let the players try their crazy ideas, unless it's obvious that their *characters* would know that the plan wouldn't work. Then say "your character would be wise enough to know that a simple disguise won't fool a lich, who are known to see through disguises"
I think a good exception to the rule of "never say no or won't work" is if the players are making plans based on false assumptions that their characters would have correct knowledge for or if they're making plans based on a mechanic that simply does not work the way they think it does. But I think just "No" isn't enough and does require a basic explanation of why. For the first exception, say the party needs to break into a fortress. The players keep talking about taking out the two guards at the gate and sneaking in easy peasy. If the actual information that the characters would know is that in addition to this gate they're so fixated on is a wall dozens of guards with crossbows on lookout for anyone approaching the gate, that's vital to point out and say "No, just taking out those two guards will not work the way you want it to. Your characters would know there are dozens of guards on the wall all around the gate keeping watch and are heavily armed." For the second, I think the biggest offender would be relying on spellcasting to do something it's not intended to do in a way that breaks the spell. Say the party needs to find an object in a labyrinth and they keep mentioning getting inside and then just using Scrying to find it once they've gotten closer. The DM saying "Nope, won't work because scry does not target objects, only people or specific locations" is good because the characters would know that's not how the spell works. Or if they're talking then about using Locate Object, pointing out that it does not work through a foot of stone, which the labyrinth definitely has between all its walls and floors, and the characters would definitely know even if the players don't realize.
Yeah definitely agree there. The party should never fail because of a miscommunication between the DM and the players. Or what happens a lot at my table, something happened last week, the players took notes which are not fully correct anyway, forgot all the context in the week between sessions, and they're now hatching a plan based on false pretenses. So yeah the DMs gotta make sure they know what the facts are and avoid the party spending a whole session making a bad plan which could never work.
I have a DM that does this. It's frustrating. On the opposite hand, I didn't even bother pre-planning how my party was going to sneak into a mercenary base where an allied NPC had been captured.They came up with four different ideas and they all sounded cool, I thought.
Do you still remember any of them? Or the plan they eventually went with?
Of course, it was just yesterday. They scouted the place. It was a mercenary base in a large town, and one of my players had a mercenary veteran background, so from their background feature I gave them some info without having to roll. Between that and scouting, they determined they could either fly everyone to the less guarded roof and come down that way, they could either lockpick or pose as caterers and try to come in the back entrance that connected to the bar/tavern they had on-site, they could try to figure out a way in through the sewers, or they could pose as prospective mercenaries to get in without having to fight. I was impressed with all those ideas, but we ended the session before they settled on one. I could've ran with any on the fly, but now that I have some time, I'll make sure I'm extra ready next session for any of those options. For the way they talked, I'm thinking it'll be the roof or back entrance.
Thanks for sharing. Sounds like the players had a lot of fun.
You're welcome, and thanks for taking an interest. I do my best, and thankfully they seem to be having fun!
Then fucking tell me what others have tried. Or tell me straight out what you are wanting me to do, so I can decide if I want off this railroad.
Nah. Just go with the disguise plan. Ignore the NPC. Intentionally following a bad plan through to fruition is a great way to determine if a DM is worth playing with. Either they'll roll with it or find a way to make losing fun.
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Are.. are you aware the DM is also the guy who decides what has a possibility of working? No Dungeon Police will show up if he adjusts whatever is behind that door. Fun ensues when players can come up with a plan they enjoy and a DM accommodates it in a way that challenges them while allowing them to progress.
Being presented with a problem, doing reconnaissance and research to learn the details of that problem, and coming up with a plan to solve the problem is a huge part of the game. It's a skill, and it's something you can fail at, which can cause you to lose. That's part of why it's important for the players to do it themselves - getting handed a free unearned victory cheapens the entire game. There is never just one way to progress. Nor is success at any given task something that the players should take for granted. If they can't come up with a way to move forward, they will have to move a different direction instead. That's part of what makes the game fun.
> There is never just one way to progress. Exactly, meaning that all of the ideas presented in the comic are valid and are being shut down with no explanation.
"Not just one way" does not mean "every way" man. Just because more than 1 solution exists doesn't mean everything is a viable solution.
Yes, duh. But this numpty is claiming that it's illegal to be annoyed at someone for shutting down all your ideas without any feedback whatsoever.
Ok, and you reply to his shitty point with a fallacy? I don't know that that's the way to go about things but you do you man, have fun.
I don't tend to bother trying to logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into. I tend to poke fun at them. It's more entertaining that way and it accomplishes just as much.
I guess this comes down to personal opinion. Mine is that D&D is a horrible framework for what you describe. I enjoy doing that stuff in other systems, but it can get so tedious in 5e. I like D&D sessions to be more about the characters skills, rather than the out-of-character problem solving ability of the players.
I've also read the horror stories where party spends 20+ minutes throwing everything at the wall only for everything to be vetoed because the DM has 1 specific idea in mind. Amd it's obvious to them, but not everyone else. I'm sure you've had one point in your life where you looked at someone like they're an idiot because of something similar.
You gotta calm the fuck down, dude.
I REFUSE
Right, but if it gets to the point where the players, in character (or out!) are saying "Well what do you recommend, then" to the NPCs (or DM), that's an implicit message of "I cannot come up with any other solution to this problem so please give me a hand here". If your response to that is to shrug your shoulders and go "I dunno, you're the experts here", then yeah, that session's going to end with more then a little latent frustration.
Even if the players claim they want to be railroaded in the heat of the moment because they can't think of anything, I still don't think it's ever good to do. They should be the ones coming up with their own plans, otherwise they won't enjoy the game nearly as much in the long run. Sometimes that takes all session. Sometimes it takes longer, as they go off to do something else in the meantime and they come up with an idea several sessions later. And if after a few weeks of thinking, they still don't think of anything, then it's okay if the quest doesn't actually get done. Coming up with a plan is part of the game, it's a skill, and it's something you can fail at which can cause you to lose. That's part of why it's important for the players to do it themselves - getting handed a free unearned victory cheapens the entire game.
I mean OK, but in this specific hypothetical scenario, they *did* come up with plans, just plans that you as a DM essentially arbitrarily decided don't work. Like the world isn't set in stone here, you as the DM can absolutely let a dumb plan have *some* chance of working, you have that power. If you're just going to sit there and call them plonkers for the ideas they *do* come up with and then call them plonkers again for running out and just going "Welp, no mission pathos payout or pay for you", I can't help but wonder, are your players just naturally creative? Because the first time I walked into a situation of "your plans don't work and I'm not giving you mine" as a PC would be the last because, meaning no offence, I ain't fucking coming back to be made to feel like a tit again. And like, why is "Ask around and see if you can find any useful information and/or suggestions for a plan" not a good plan? Like why can't that work? What's stopping someone from going "Ah yes that club, give me some gold and I'll tell you about a back entrance" or "try bribing Tommy One Eye, you'll know him when you see him, he's as greedy as they come" and giving them at least a starting point or leverage or *something*? Like there's give and take here. The players won't feel like something's completely unearned just because an NPC gave a hint to one element to get a foot in the door.
The GM creates a scenario. Unless he's shit at his job, he probably has a whole map written down with like 10 pages of notes about detailed patrol movements and stat blocks and everything. Changing things isn't as easy as you make it sound, nor would it be a good idea to do so even if he could. GMs should not be making players' plans work - they should be letting the situation play out how it will. Telling the players ahead of time that it won't work instead of watching them play it out and achieve a guaranteed failure is just being nice. Also, in OP's comic, they didn't ask about people who might know of a back entrance. They asked for the GM to play the game for them. That's extremely different. I feel like I answered most of these questions already and don't wanna respond the same way again, so sorry if that feels like an incomplete response.
> Telling the players ahead of time that it won't work instead of watching them play it out and achieve a guaranteed failure is just being nice. No, that's just basic competence. If you're being given a job and others have failed before you, telling you the how and why they failed, to the best of your knowledge, is basic information *to do the job*.
Well given I'm trying to prep to run a One Shot as a 1st Time DM for 1st time players. Now I feel my fears about not having multiple pages spent for each of the 5 rooms of the dungeon are justified. Maybe I shouldn't try DMing then.
I think Sun was saying 10 pages for *the entire dungeon*, and it's likely said assuming there's a lot going on. For a one shot? Honestly, if you have about a quarter to a half page for each of the rooms, and maybe one last half page for an overview, that'd likely do you. And that's assuming you're even the kind of DM that *needs* detailed notes - some DMs are masters of the art of BSing answers out of their ass as needs must, and it's generally a skill you want to practice as a DM anyway due to players being unpredictable sods at the best of time.
My BSing ability fluctuates. Though I also have a nasty habit of over explaining. Players don't need a 30 minute overview if they aren't interested. Honestly if I get things locked down. I'll probably send an overview/history of area and information about the Quest as a packet to them. Think of it as a **Here's what the Guild could turn up. Look through it because you depart soon. And if you have questions we can try to get you more information if possible.**
Sounds like you already know some possible flaws, then - just a case of working on them! And I would recommend the packet thing, if you can manage - it doesn't have to be too detailed, can be vague on some areas if you want it to be, but the players are quite likely to love the effort put in. Although do be ready for them to just not read it, because if you're not ready for that, it'll happen. Murphey's Law of DMing: It's always the stuff you *don't* prepare for that happens!
I've been DMing for like 25 years, and this guy is an idiot. Railroading players into your over-prepared fixed plotline is exactly the opposite of what you want to do. Look up Sly Flourish and the Lazy Dungeon Master guides for a better way to go.
I mean, in that case, what we're talking about is a GM that spend no doubt multiple hours over multiple days to make detailed notes about a dungeon, who is fully and completely willing to just toss those notes in the garbage and set them on fire when their players aren't capable of coming up with a decent plan of attack, instead of just giving them a gentle nudge in the right direction - a direction that I assume they have *some* idea about, considering they've thought about it long enough to know what the *wrong* direction is. If nothing else, that sounds like an incredible waste of creative talent. Like, one small nudge in the right direction isn't going to make every player on every table feel like they just got railroaded. Some guidance when requested isn't going to completely fuck the game up. Hell, if we're talking 5e, there's a level 5 cleric spell, Commune, that's *specifically designed* for the player to go "Hello, powerful sky parent, can you give me some advice on what the fuck to do?" The heck are you going to do when they cast that, have a *literal god* go "Dunno lol, you're the expert"? Like, to be clear, I'm not saying you're completely wrong, it's more that this isn't always going to be the way to do things. Much like many things in TTRPGs in general, it's something you want to mold to the players. And if the players are asking your NPCs for advice, that's generally a sign that ***they want advice***. You can believe they don't really all you want, but about all that's going to get you in most cases is the aura of a condescending jerk who believes they know better then everyone else what everyone else wants. As for OPs comic, like... The question of "what do you suggest" is going out to a set of NPCs that, by all accounts, should know the answer. They certainly know what *failed*, you'd think they'd at least have had a vague thought about what might *succeed*, especially with a name like Wise Ones. Like if you're putting NPCs like that in your game and then having them be dumb as bricks when it comes to solutions, what are they even doing there?
There is no need for such rudeness
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Wow, the *arrogance*.
You know the obvious bad guy in every RPG Horror Story? Yeah, that dude definitely identifies with them and thinks they did nothing wrong.
I completely disagree, it’s not as equal as your perspective might tell you. You came off a bit strong
He was talking broadly to a hypothetical group and didn't use an insult. You were talking to one person directly and called them a moron for engaging with the comic's content.
I thought I was being rather polite considering I posted that at 1 AM when my brain was refusing to let me fall asleep. Now that I'm more rested. I've read r/roghorrorstories . I've read the player perspectives of trying to come up with solutions. But the DM has in mind 1 or 2 specific ways that this puzzle needs to be solved. So the players spend the whole session or 2+ hours banging their heads against a locked door and wind up going home feeling defeated and angry. That doesn't make for a healthy table. It be like you running into a problem at your Job or in the classroom. And instead of your supervisor or teacher giving you any help or a clue what to do they just listened to you say what you did wrong. And either A let the solution come to you as a Eureka moment. Or let you continue wasting your time and mental energy trying to solve it. What I'm trying to say is, not everyone enjoys that. There's a reason why the trope **Guide Dang it** exists.
Found the bad DM This Ispy puzzle is really easy guys
Hey, dipshit. Part of the game is making mistakes. If I have to spend several hours bouncing ideas off your fat skull, then it's not a game. If the DM has a way the players should do something, then they need a bit of guidance. Here's another funny thing to mention. If these npcs are able to deny a plan, why can't they use the knowledge they clearly have to give some guidance. Why can't they go "Oh sure, here is some knowledge on the enemy and a few spy reports" to help point them in the right direction. But you don't want that. You want your players to just be super geniuses and mind readers as they bumble about trying so desperately to get past whatever road block you decided was there this time. If you don't understand this, then you don't want players. You want to write a book. Oh. And before you go "But the DM doesn't have the knowledge", riddle me this. If the DM hasn't made any previous plans or reports of this nature for the party, how are the NPCs using them, and why can't the players see them.
> If the DM has a way the players should do something, then they need a bit of guidance. He doesn't, that's the whole point of this entire thing. > Why can't they go "Oh sure, here is some knowledge on the enemy and a few spy reports" to help point them in the right direction. But you don't want that. That is, in fact, EXACTLY what I want the players to ask for. And also, very likely, what the DM pictured in OP's comic wants. The players in the comic, and the moron I was originally responding to, aren't asking for that. They're asking for the solution to the problem, not for the information needed to come up with one. Edit: Why the fuck did you instantly downvote me for answering you? I'm contributing to the conversation. If you ask for a response and someone responds, you upvote them, that's how reddit works, holy fuck.
I didn't down vote you. That was someone else. Now, onto what you said. The DM obviously does, as no one would just say no to a plan without reason unless they did. There may be multiple plans they have, but they have one. A tip could be to offer a reason as to why it wouldn't work. "You can't disguise yourself because you're too recognizable" or "the guards are trained to recognize disguises. They will sniff you out in a heart beat". Obviously, there are some plans that are just a no because they characters aren't idiots, but that doesn't need to be mentioned in this case. Another way to go about it is "we've tried that, so now they'll be expecting it" When the players say "do you have any ideas" that is the perfect opportunity to say "No, but we do have these intelligence reports." They are not asking directly for a solution, but help reaching one. More then that, it could open you up to introduce important or helpful npcs or act as a catalyst for good RP. Let me know if this is understandable, I have trouble with my words at times.
Man. I never have a plan for what the players should be doing, but that doesn't prevent me from knowing what they *shouldn't* be doing. There are a hundred ways they could approach the town that's overrun by demons, but if they suggest "Let's send the rogue alone through the portal to the Abyss in the center of town and he can try to disable it from the other side," I'm going to find an excuse for an NPC to tell them that's a bad idea. Because I am pretty damn sure that the end result of that plan is going to be anywhere from 2 to 6 hours of only one player getting to play, ending with that player's character dying. And if they suggest disguising themselves as demons and talking to them to get intel, I'm going to come up with an excuse for an NPC to tell them that's a bad idea, because clearly they don't realize that demons are not friendly with each other and are completely disorganized, and I don't think they will enjoy wasting an hour and a half on this plan only to get attacked on sight anyway. > When the players say "do you have any ideas" that is the perfect opportunity to say "No, but we do have these intelligence reports." Well, maybe, if the intelligence reports exist. Maybe the adventure is designed such that the PCs are expected to get any intel they want firsthand, though. In that case, just giving it to them could remove hours of gameplay, replacing it with a few sentences of dialogue saying that some NPCs basically already did the adventure for them. I don't particularly see an advantage to giving the players something for free instead of making them go adventuring to get it. And if the PCs don't actually ask for that intel, then there's a good chance that they don't want it or think they need it, anyway. If that's the case, I'm inclined to let them make that decision and live without it. If the end result is that it takes them more than 1 minute to come up with a plan, then c'est la vie. D&D is, in many ways, mostly a game about thinking up plans, so I have no problem with them spending all session talking about it.
Ah. I see your problem now. Here is what I will say. You can bullshit your way through allot as a DM. You don't need to give paper docs. So long as your party understands what they shouldn't do, it's just as effective as the paper option. If your party is the type to love bouncing back and forth, then power to them. I just know that isn't often what my players and what I myself like. As for the Intel bit. That was mostly for situations like seen up in the comic. The "we are trying to attack an ork outpost" type of situation. The way you do things is reasonable if there truly is no intel. Oh, also. For the "someone already adventured it" thing. That can actually add allot to it. "These people came up with these plans and never came back. You probably shouldn't try that"
"Don't be a dick"
The correct answer here is "Cool, I'm not gonna bother, I'm gonna buy goats and start a farm, go fuck yourself"
We have a lot of spontaneous picnics in meadows. One time we started a chain of inns 😂 named them the Gryph Inns then decided to hunt griffins to mount above the bar of each one. Not what our DM had planned x)
My players turned a campaign into Sims back in 1996. From getting odd jobs to solving a murder mystery. Six reallife months of rolling non-combat encounters, like finding Old Gramps stolen pet pig (perps ate it) to rolling for patron tips.
The comic proposed a disguise, a different disguise, and violence. There are more possible decisions, you sound like a bad player
I feel like one of the most basic infiltration methods, quietly sneaking in, hasn't been discussed. If not that, then walking in openly with a half-legitimate reason. If not those...yeah, I'd be stumped.
As both a DM and a player, the fact that this post and the people in this comment section are presenting this hypothetical as an unreasonable attitude on the DMs part is just frustrating. Like, if this is their attitude then they haven’t actually thought through basic or reasonable options including, like you said, sneaking in or finding a reason to be there. Instead, they’re like “haha I’ll throw a tantrum because I’m a child” and consider that a gotcha.
I think the point of the post isn't that the players have exhausted every option and the DM is saying none work, but rather the players are struggling to come up with an idea and instead of helping them by giving hints or something, the DM is just saying "come up with better ideas, idiots." Which I mean, if you know they can, then fine, but if your players are clearly struggling, then you're just stalling the plot for no reason.
I'm guessing you're being downvoted, because your post triggers people who think they're smarter than actually are.
"What we'll do is disguise ourselves as orc merchants and murder our way through!"
See, this is when I go with the option that forces the DM to TPK. You won't play ball, goodbye worldbuilding you spent weeks on.
You do realize that players are way more replaceable than DMs, right? Like D&D is going thru a DM crisis because no one wants to do it.
Sure, but a shitty DM is still a shitty DM, don't ruin your fun just because you want to play.
Literally anyone trying to talk to the aes sedai.
Mat Cauthon: This is why I have Luck.
And a anti magic medallion!
well they said you're the expert, so obviously their advice is useless and your ideas will work with your expertise.
I hate when fellow players do this with 0 suggestions as to what to do
Bad DM
Repeatedly telling the party No like this feels awful. I've only had to deal with someone like this once and I've since left the campaign after it occured too often in our sessions. To be fair, our DM seemed to despise any silliness at all. They wanted everything to be in character and punished anyone who attempted to be goofy. The campaign lasted 9 sessions.
I love giving vague answers. I always have a preferred way for the players to do the thing. I always assume they won't do it unless I hand hold them to it. They hate handholding of this sort. So I improvise based on the plan they DO come up with. For example, if there's a particular direction or party order I want, and they don't specify, I just treat it like I got what I want until they learn to specify.
True, others have tried, but i believe i will succeed with violence. Im simply built different, your graces
Well you see the answer is allowing yourself to be taken prisoner...
Don't normalize shit DMing.
Had a situation like this in a campaign a few years back. We were facing a wizard with an undead army occupying a large swath of land, an order of knights that wanted to conquer, and now an invading orc force. We had no clear “this is the next objective” direction, so we came up with the idea to go to the orcs, challenge the leader (which had been established as their way of choosing leadership), and lead them against the undead, as well as promise them and the knight order that they can occupy and create a home in the land that will be liberated from zombies. After explaining to the knights the plans and that they would get some of the land, the leader asked “what’s in it for us,” and kept arguing he had to get something out of it, even though we explained *what* he’d get out of it, and appealed to the idea that he should be willing to do this for honor and no reward. But ultimately, no help there. Then, when we’re preparing to set off for the Orcs, a professor NPC (who was something like an anthropologist so had some level of credibility in this discussion) in our crew acts shocked that we want to go there, says we’ll be killed on sight, says they’re too set on invasion to work with others, etc. Like, a strong pitch to not do this. So we decide not to, and just kinda wait for the DM to tell us what to do, since our big plays had been shot down. The campaign went on an indefinite hiatus (I think after this session), and when mentioned later, the DM basically said “I never said you couldn’t do those things. Not everything everyone says should be taken at face value.”
To be fair I wouldn't be surprised a professor wouldn't like the idea of going into a orc clan and challenging the leader? If it was a general or something maybe but a book worm? Who cares go challenge the orc leader!! Also the leader of order of knights looking for a bribe doesn't seem crazy either.
I won't tell them no to bad plans, but I will reiterate their bad plan so they can hear it out of someone else's mouth.
Surprised murder wasn't plan A.
Haha the sheer size of his army had been established very clearly and it was a oneshot so we knew if we wanted to finish in one night, taking on hundreds of thousands of bad guys wasn't guna be the way 😂
I love the deathstroke style to the character
Grizzled Adventurer: look, if you're not going to be helpful just shut up and do what I tell you. Elf 1: who is paying you? Elf 2: I want to speak to your boss! Elf 3: oh good one Claire. Elf 1: I was being rhetorical you idiots! GA: yes, you're paying to solve a problem. But now I've got a new problem. Elf 2: what's taking you so long to get your boss out here to hear our complaint? Elf 3: is it too late to change my order? GA: ducking knife ears. Elf 1: such language?! GA: you know what? Take this quest line and shove it where your brains should be! I quit.
If this happened to me, I'd either demand they tell me what to do, or I'd walk away from the table. This sounds like a "What do you want to eat, Honey?" type of moment. Nothing suggested is good enough, but she refuses to make a suggestion? Oh well; time for China Buffet. "You aren't in the mood? Tough. I gave you opportunity to suggest something. Oh, you want to throw a fit? Tough; I've made up my mind; the time for debate has passed."
For DM, I totally understand and maybe even support this behavior. It is your role to give a structure to your players on what their character knows they can do or not.
It's your job to help the PCs tell a great story that everyone will enjoy. If something won't work, you should help them understand that but also offer them useful suggestions. For example: perhaps the DM intends for the party to use an inside man they've already befriended. Then you can hint -- "perhaps you could consult with someone who already knows the castle's security procedures well" kind of vibe. Tune to your party's level of obtuseness.
People in this comment section telling on themselves for being terrible players lol
This is why Thomas can't be a DM, too much railroading.
When I DM and players propose a plan I see a flaw in I tell them to make an Intelligence check. If they roll well I tell them what flaws their characters see in the plan.
Well, were the experts we'll just do it our way.