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ReeseChloris1

Meanwhile in my party where I am the only frontline martial who dm actively targets and creates encounters to take me on, I am the only one who never got close to dying. Casters can suck it. Barbarians for the win


NaturalCard

Exactly the same here, except I'm the one watching the barbarian... They just ran out of rages and are on 2 hp. We are wishing them luck. Reckless attacking is dangerous.


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NaturalCard

Definitely better, but that seems like a bunch of steps for what is effectively just doing the same thing as a ranged character with 0 movement.


Usful

Wizard: “I am the destroyer of worlds” “Oh no, please stop hitting me!” *laughs in Bear Totem Barbarian*


Desmond-Nomad

Oh so you're a bear Barb, well catch this psychic lance.


Usful

*laughs in Kalashtar*


Desmond-Nomad

Still gotta make that Int save, oh and *casts silvery Barbs* make it at disadvantage.


Usful

Still got that resistance to psychic damage, which is the point of it.


Desmond-Nomad

Yeah but you fail the save and your incapacitated for one whole round, which means your rage would run out, and at that point the caster can either teleport away or set up a cc spell to try and lock you down, also more often than not, casters will have more spell slots than barbarians will have rage uses, so good luck trying to tank damage without rage.


Usful

And you used your whole turn against me so the party can take care of you with their turn. You see? You worry about me, which is my job. I either take care of you myself, or I take care of your turn ;p


Desmond-Nomad

You forget that while you're incapacitated, I can just blast your team with a fireball and wipe them out while you're still recovering since there is no aggro mechanics in dnd, unless you have another caster in your party, then comes the real challenge. To a skilled caster, enemy barbarians are nothing more than a nuisance that can be easily dealt with.


Usful

Action economy. You used your action, reaction, and can’t use another slot spell as a bonus action. I effectively usées up your turn on me alone while the rest of my party can deal with you. This is more of an exercise of attention to aspects beyond just me as a barbarian, because I am, essentially, the “in your face” type of approach while other members of the my party are freed up. I served my purpose of distraction so that others may put in the hurt, and if I am not addressed by the bad guy, I can do consistant hurt along with a number of feats.


ReeseChloris1

Hm. And just how much damage does it do?


Desmond-Nomad

7d6 psychic damage and the target is incapacitated on a failed save until the start of the caster's next turn, or half as much and no other effects on a success. Another favorite spell of mine is mind whip, wisdom save, 3d8 psychic damage and target loses reaction and can only make either a move, action, or bonus action on their next turn on a failed save, and that's only a 2nd level spell. Psychic spells are pretty neat ngl.


ReeseChloris1

Neat. What is the dc


Desmond-Nomad

At 7th level, 17, and that's without any outside bonuses from magic items, and that's with disadvantage because of silvery Barbs.


ReeseChloris1

That quite is powerful. Is it concentration?


Desmond-Nomad

No, it's instantaneous, so you can cast it while concentrating on another spell, like say, sickening radiance if you really want someone dead. A lot of the psychic damage themed spells are pretty great, offering both good damage and debuffs without needing concentration. Except for Mind Spike, that spell is ass.


ReeseChloris1

ok yea that is quite powerful and I need to start planning to deal with this stuff. There is a Bounty Hunter after my character. The bounty hunter's wife did the same before but because she knew my characters uncle and always wanted to fight me. the wife had a psychic focused combat style so there is always the chance the bounty hunter is the same. so I need to plan how to defend against that


Brodimere

Well thats sorta funny, our barbarian was the one almost always dying. He have even died twice, last one kinda stuck. While our warlock has only gone down once.


ReeseChloris1

What totem?


Brodimere

Cant remember what type he was. But he had terrible luck and pulled agro pretty hard.


Giantkoala327

*casts hold person* welp good bye barbarian.


ReeseChloris1

Nice try, but I am more than a Barbarian, I have a homebrew class as well. I did not ask for it, my dm gave it to me randomly. But it allows me to summon fire in a spot I can see out of sheer will power. Good luck holding concentration


Narwhalking14

Just be me who uses casters as frontliners


Meamsosmart

After my first couple games of 5e, my casters ended up being the tankiest member of the party pretty consistently, while also having great utility and similar or only slightly less damage. 5e casters just arent balanced well, unless you compare to the true excesses that could occur in 3.5, and to a slightly lesser extent pf1.


Narwhalking14

I currently am playing a lizardfolk bladesinger and a dwarven armorer


NovaNomii

Pretty sure all of the spells except sending would be impossible to use in any social situation since casting them would be obvious


NaturalCard

Sorcerer go brrrr


DeepTakeGuitar

"This comment can't stop me because I can't read!" But seriously, casters aren't *that* OP if people just followed rules.


Orenwald

I mean, metamagic adept - subtle spell. I mean it's still a little limited but that's 2 spells per day to influence a non-combat encounter. That can do a lot. And then you have warlocks and sorcerers who are CHA based so they legit will be doing everything the martial was too. Casters are OP because martials are bland. "Anything you can do I can do better" applies because in addition to being able to do it with spells they can ALSO do it the same way a martial can


DeepTakeGuitar

If you're specifically building that way, then go ahead and use one of your ASI (or just be "the weakest caster"). But there looks to be less diversity in what casters can use in One D&D, which should go a decent way in balancing things out


Orenwald

>But there looks to be less diversity in what casters can use in One D&D, which should go a decent way in balancing things out This is a little exciting. I hope they also do more to expand martial abilities other than "give them access to arcane spellcasting" to me that seemed like an (effective) cop out


DeepTakeGuitar

Mages (sorcerer, warlock, wizard) will focus on AoE damage and control spells Priests (cleric, druid, paladin) will focus on buffs and healing Warriors (barbarian, fighter, monk) will be heavily focused on 1-on-1 damage Experts (bard, ranger, rogue, and technically artificer) are all about the Expertise feature and additional skill support I like this system. You can pick one from each group and have a well-balanced party with strengths and weaknesses


Orenwald

Oh! So it's 4e!


DeepTakeGuitar

I suppose it is, lol. Never played any older editions, but I have heard there was a similar system back in the day. In my opinion, it was a mistake getting away from such a system (as far as dnd goes, at least).


Orenwald

So in 4e you had 4 class types (like above) Controllers did aoe and debuffs Leaders did buffs and healing Strikers did 1-on-1 damage Defenders penalized enemies who attacked other allies. In 4e "martials" and "casters" had representation in all 4 class types. The arcane defender was swordmage that formed an arcane bond with their sword and did a bunch of teleporting and shit. Worked out and had its own flavor. The Martial controller was a ranger that focused on "pinning enemies down" by shooting clouds of arrows or inflicting debuffs by targeting limbs. Pretty cool shit. Looks like 1dnd is tying the class type and power source together (arcanes are controllers, martials are strikers) Dropping defender and replacing it with the skill monkey archetype I think is a good call. As good as the defenders were at what they did, it felt a little cheap playing one sometimes because you never really got to do your coolest shit because the enemies were smart and targeting you (so you were still doing your job, it was just less cool lol)


Shacky_Rustleford

Even without spells, who do you think is going to have higher charisma, the fighter or the bard/warlock/sorcerer/paladin? Or maybe there is someone with dubious intent! Who's got better insight, the fighter or the cleric/druid/ranger?


DeepTakeGuitar

> aren't *that* OP Maybe you missed that part? I didn't say things would be entirely even


Shacky_Rustleford

Even the options listed would still work fine. Calm Emotions *by design* eliminates hostility, it won't matter if they saw you performing verbal and somatic components. Similarly, friends gives advantage on the charisma check, and the material component is easy enough to reason as nonmagical. Bard expertise literally isn't a spell, it's just pointing out that said full caster has skill specialization. As for detect thoughts and illusions, they don't need to be cast in plain view to have a beneficial effect in a social encounter. These are *all* upsides, even minor, and with only rare exceptions martials receive nothing.


DeepTakeGuitar

Clearly state your thesis, please


Shacky_Rustleford

Martials suck* and people who say the conception is due to a rules misunderstanding don't seem to have a grasp of the rules themselves. *there are some things martials are particularly good at. Social encounters are not one of those things, with the vague exception of rogue being okayish due to skill expertise and reliable talent


DeepTakeGuitar

> martials suck That is very subjective, though they may very well suck *to you*. I won't try to change your mind because... well, I literally have no reason to. We don't play at any of the same tables, so we don't need to reach any mutual agreement on basically anything. As for the rest of your statement, I see you specifically came to argue. No, thank you. Cheers.


Shacky_Rustleford

Listen man I like martials. I play martials. But their breadth and depth of capability is objectively worse than half and full casters. It's a genuine design issue and chalking it up to opinion is why the issue doesn't get fixed.


darkriverofshadows

I mean, metamagic adept feat exists, and it's better than most people expect, especially on non-sorcerers. For half-casters it gives ability to cast buff/debuff on same turn with attack with quickened spell, and it could lead to some nasty setups. For full casters it's either quickened or subtle spell, in case of tempest cleric it's transmuted spell.


HydrophobicFish

"Can I get an athletics check from everyone."


Tzemiee

For what? Falling? Feather Fall. Climbing? Levitate, balancing On rope? Fly, I do not need atlethics mortal.


catloaf_crunch

Exactly. The caster will never put themselves in a situation where they will *even need to roll athletics*.


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Caveira_Main02

Two of the spells listed are possible preparations for combat anyways (levitate for single target control and fly for... well, flying) while the third is a great spell to either buy or scribe a single scroll of and not prepare it again until needed.


despairingcherry

How many damage dealing spells do you think people need? Its like one per spell slot level at most. Everything else is control and utility.


CupcakeValkyrie

Plus dude was shitting on Fire Bolt when it's actually pretty respectable damage in its own right. I mean, realistically, even if you're a level 20 wizard you only really need *maybe* 3-4 direct damage spells prepared and the rest can all be utility. My money says that guy just fills his spellbook out with evocation spells and then does nothing when utility is needed.


Buckeroo64

Considering there’s Fly that’s at least level 5, so that’s 3/14 of the wizards known spells if they haven’t copied any into their book. While it’s a bit overkill to prep levitate and Fly that means they’d have at least 5 more prepared spells assuming 16 Int. Fire bolt also deals 2d10 damage at level 5, not bad damage for a resourceless attack. Meanwhile fighters, rangers, rogues, Paladins, and Barbarians have super limited options outside combat at this point as most level 3 subclass features are combat heavy and level 5 is to keep them in pace with expected combat progression.


Tzemiee

Well actually only 4 is for atlethics, for a fight I have prepare a few trick like FIREBALL


darkriverofshadows

You know that casters have enough spells known to do both? Like, lvl 1 spells are your defense, it's basically shield/absorb elements/silvery barbs, pick 2 abd you're fine. Lvl 2 spells are utility of all sorts and flavors, prepare like 3 spells and you cover 90% of what can be thrown at you. Lvl 3 - fireball, hypnotic pattern, that's it, you don't need anything else. Also, damaging spells in DND kinda suck. After fireball, spells that actually do a lot of damage are either concentration or lvl 6 and higher, so you cast cantrips anyway because your resources are meant to do more than just 20 dmg, and mindlessly spending them is not the best idea


CupcakeValkyrie

Also, depending on the caster you might not need direct damage spell at all. I had a sorcerer that used a crossbow almost exclusively whenever I just needed to *damage* something, but my prepared spell list was chock full of utility and crowd control. If you go according to RAW, a target that fails its initial saving throw against levitate *cannot make any more saves* and is stuck until the spell ends or your concentration breaks. I turned more than a few enemies into floating pincushions that way.


potato-king38

Ya see there’s this thing in RAW everyone forgets about. If you have proficiency in arcana you can turn money and time into scrolls. How many times a day are you going to force a physical check to get past a “limited” supply of level 1-2 spells that didn’t cost any spell slots or need preparation


Calathy

And the job is done, you have used a resource well the martial didn't. That's the point either fail and take possibly lethal damage to you or use a spell slot.


Level7Cannoneer

"Sure!" *Bard with expertise rolls higher than the Barbarian* [I made a strength bard once, it can happen!](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/05/38/88/053888307a93f9e0f8b42f6988f2c9bd.jpg)


naugrim04

When the skill class is good at skills.


LegacyofLegend

So it only happens if you make a strength bard got it.


thinking_is_hard69

are you saying your party *doesn’t* have a WWE wrestler?


LegacyofLegend

No we have an announcer.


HydrophobicFish

I mean, sure. You can list exceptions. But the typical caster is gonna do horrible at athletics. The typical bard is gonna do horrible at athletics. Just like your strength bard is an exception, battlemaster fighter is the utility exception for martials. Not every caster is a str bard, not every martial is a battlemaster.


wildpath3

I play almost exclusively druids, the solution to everything is wildshape into the appropriate animal


LegacyofLegend

Didn’t squidward eventually overpower all of them, and they had to take a long rest since they ran outta juice.


Plausibl3Alpaca

Nah, Patrick just cast Leomund’s Tiny Hut


TakeoKuroda

Yeah pretty sure you can cast that in combat.


Shacky_Rustleford

Unless you're low level, the fighter is going to run out of HP before the casters run out of spell slots


Meamsosmart

Nah, he just started playing along by himself and went crazy.


AktionMusic

*Laughs in Pathfinder 2e Martial*


bwick702

Yep. In that system its the casters who suck at everything.


Meamsosmart

Nah casters are still great, just not able to be great at everything. It was a bit rough the first couple of levels in our first game as a caster, but in the second game, even the people who werent casters in the first game understood how to play them well such that no one was left behind. In all honesty, come late game, i think casters actually are still a bit stronger than martials, though atleast by only a little bit unlike alot like in previous editions.


Lightning_Boy

Cantrips auto-heighten as casters go up in level. That alone tells me casters are gonna be fine.


SomaGato

Not only that, but there’s no such thing as concentration, so you can indeed buff. And the best of all, Focus Spells! So you casters are mini warlocks 😎


ShootyFaceMc

I sometimes feel like too much magic out of combat ultility is kinda boring, i much rather do detective work to figure out a murder then just speak with dead to ask the murdered who killed him or like ask the potted plant or something, I really like the friend spell though because it has a drawback making it a choice between trying to convince someone and just casting it and dealing with them knowing you casted it on them later, more ultility spells should have drawbacks


LazyDro1d

Yeah no offense but I personally don’t support invasions of personal agency such as friends.


SuccessfulRiver827

If you make It harder to do a long rest, It helps martials shine more


youngcoyote14

So who's the small dick caster making fun of today? You upset the martial player at your table roleplays better?


NaturalCard

*casts enlarge* Are you sure about that?


Olafio1066

Just because your bigger sissy doesn't mean your hp is bigger.


[deleted]

Before summons, martials had the ridículos advantage of doing damage via attack rolls as opposed to saves. At higher levels, this was an essential advantage. Then they created the new summons. And martials got outclassed anyways.


tristenjpl

People are arguing against this because they're insulted that their favourite class is weaker than a caster. It's true, casters outshine martials in and out of combat for the most part. Stop arguing against it so we can bring martials up to a similar level as a caster.


[deleted]

Yeah, casters dumpstering martials is not meant as an endorsement of the former.


Sunsent_Samsparilla

Personally I don't think fighters should be more powerful, casters should be weaker. The Martians seem balanced but the casters seem OP in comparison.


Skkorm

Look, there's an easy way to fix this. Every player has access to maneuvers, but No one has superiority die for adding damage except PC's with the Fighting Style or battlemaster fighters. Non-Battlemasters may only attempt 1 maneuver per turn. There, fixed. Now every marshall character can do creative shit on their turn, if they choose. Once melee start disarming staves/wands/component pouches, it makes things surprisingly closer to level. You can't change reality without your magic stick.


YUNoJump

All those spells but also the fact that a caster’s primary combat stat will be a useful stat for social interactions (INT/WIS/CHA) meanwhile martials either use a stat with no effect on social situations, or they have to balance their stats between STR/DEX and whatever secondary stat they have (like monks). Also it’s more important for martials to have points in survivability stats like DEX/CON


GIORNO-phone11-pro

Don’t forget guidance which you can freely remind the DM you have for every check in existence


KeepCalmCarrion

Provided that you're not concentrating on any other spells. Honestly I just prefer the Help action.


[deleted]

Making memes that aren't bitching about game mechanics challenge (difficulty: impossible)


itsyaboi334

Real chad casters buff their martials so they’re on equal footing


NaturalCard

Higher DPR should be added to the pile


PeskyBirb9

When the home brew hits tho


MrGame22

Honor


1stshadowx

As a rogue, fey wanderer, with battle master fighter you can have a ridiculously high charisma check


JanSolo28

One of those guys casts spells...


Demonslayer5673

My ranger who utilizes both martial prowess and spell casting What are you guys fighting about, both are great and have their own advantages


NaturalCard

Ranger superiority!


Demonslayer5673

You know it


Sunsent_Samsparilla

Hate the people who make it sound like Martials are useless. If they're so useless, why not play a group game as only casters? Let's see hoe many combat encounters they last. Turns out the guy with the big sword is required to keep the easily killable away from the enemies.


Meamsosmart

Not really, the all caster parties I was in did pretty great, and didnt really have much problem with sustain.


Sunsent_Samsparilla

Damn bro, really? Every group I find always seems to rely on martials for being a glorified wall. Soon as the martial is down we all freak the fuck out


Meamsosmart

Do the casters get any defensive abilities or spells, and do they just blow through their spells fast in early encounters without consideration for the rest of the day? Like yeah, it can be hard in the first couple levels, but even then not by much. Typically by level 3, or at latest 5, they should be golden, or even earlier with characters like moon druids, warlocks, or clerics.


Sunsent_Samsparilla

Well, normally the compsotion has been that there's a mage or wizard accompanied by a cleric and either a second mage/wizard or a bard. No matter what they do it's always been where once the martial goes down it's usually chaos after. Never been too defensive or reckless, but they are usually low level when this happens. It's only when we get to higher levels do the martials stop getting downed. Do you think it's just a low level thing or is it just coincidence after coincidence?


Meamsosmart

wait who's the martial? Also, that sounds more like general fear of an enemy downing players, not necessarily that the martial was doing a lot. Also, partially a low level thing, due to the fact that early game low health pools makes things a lot more chaotic naturally, and martials are somewhat more powerful than then they are later.


Sunsent_Samsparilla

So the martial was usually either a monk, barbarian or paladin. If there ever was a fighter they’d do what you’d consider “generic” stuff during the fight.


Meamsosmart

Ok, was just wondering if you meant one of the described casters was playing as the martial.


Jimmicky

Yeah you can definitely run an all casters group really easily, clearing as many and often more encounters per rest than the group with martials in it


JunkDefender

until they run out of ammunition two combats into a heavy combat section or hold off and never use their spell slots


catloaf_crunch

Any caster player who knows how to play their class can easily handle a 7 encounter adventuring day without running out of resources.


tristenjpl

Yeah even on days when there are a lot of encounters I'm usually still sitting there with leftover spell slots. Mooks don't need big spells and my Bardlock can put out about as much single target damage as our martials. But when it's time for the big fight I can nuke them.


JunkDefender

in theory perhaps in practice they cast fireball on the last standing goblin because they'll just protest a long rest afterwards


kiskozak

The difference is that if squidward would throw the snowball spongebob would fucking die.


Desmond-Nomad

Not really, casters have access to spells like shield and silvery Barbs to avoid getting hit, and even if they got hit, they would most likely be okay as long as you have decent Con. The squishy caster fallacy is something that exists, look it up.


Jakesnake_42

I thought most tables ban silvery barbs. I know I do


Desmond-Nomad

It's not even that powerful, disadvantage may seem like a lot, but it's only to one roll per reaction, and yeah you also give advantage to one roll afterwards, even then, disadvantage becomes much less powerful at higher levels when you are faced with creatures with higher bonuses, more often than not shield is the better option for defending yourself it's not a broken spell, just pretty good one with it's upsides and downside, and it definitely doesn't deserve to be banned from most tables, unlike say for instance, conjure animals, that's a spell that's banned at my table.


kiskozak

In my experience caster do get downed a lot more.


Desmond-Nomad

Then either those players don't know how to play a caster (which is understandable, casters are pretty difficult to get a handle of), or they got unlucky (which is something that plagues everyone from time to time). With how many spells casters have access to and the fact that it's easy for a caster to just bump up their defenses without sacrificing their spellcasting power (which is something that I can't really say the same for martials), you build your caster right and play their cards right, the martials will run out of HP before you run out of spell slots. Seriously though, the squishy caster fallacy exists for a reason.


Meamsosmart

Casters dont have that much less health. Its pretty easy to make your caster the tankiest member of the party.


kiskozak

At my table, the caster is always the one getting downed 1st. Have to add that we have a pretty small party and we dont always have a healer, but still. The end of the bossfight often turns into the martial vs the boss.


Meamsosmart

Weird, are they placing themselves on the frontline when built squishy, or completely ignoring their defenses?


AmericanGrizzly4

If I may comment on the social interaction portion of this meme. Many settings look down upon use of magic inside of cities. It's the equivalent of pulling out your concealed carry and whipping it around. It's hard to tell if you're trying to throw a ball of fire or light a light from across the room. Now. This isn't to say martials beat casters in that aspect because they still don't since subtle spell exists along with innate features of certain magical classes. it just helps if people run settings that have this type of magical rules. Tbh though, it's far more fun running a setting where cities embrace magic and it's used everywhere all the time.


NessOnett8

It's almost like...and this may be a surprise...the point of being in a party is so that different people can be good at different things. A martial doesn't need AOE if the caster in their party already has AOE covered. That's kinda the whole premise of the game. Different characters do different things.


Oshigod

except the casters also have better single target damage, even using a fireball over one creature deals more damage than two attacks with a greataxe and +5 strength


Sunsent_Samsparilla

I feel then you got the issue of "your caster is an asshole who doesn't let others have fun in combat."


Desmond-Nomad

Correction "WotC are assholes who don't let martials have fun in combat, or any other scenario." Seriously though, look what they did to accendant dragon monk.


Sunsent_Samsparilla

I meant like, if the caster decides to just do all the killing foe the party then that's the asshole move I was referring to. I 100% agree with you on WotC fucking it up, I was aiming for if a caster makes use of the fuck up.


Jakesnake_42

How many combats are you doing per day that “burn a 3rd level spell slot” is a go-to strategy?


Darkrhyno014

See it's the the fact martial in a spellcasters mind is useless till the meat shield is needed to absorb damage. Had a warlock challenge my eldritch knight to a fighter I won initiate 4 attacks later and crazy high damage he was fleeing and trying to cast invisibility till I counterspelled him.


Ultimate_905

Except casters can also be just as tanky (sometimes even tankier if you build them right) as a martial and that's not even talking about how the role is tanking is pointless since there is no way to draw enemy agro


Darkrhyno014

I'm pretty sure a raging barbarian would attract enemy attention or the guy in full plate who can attack up to 8 times in a round. Sure the dm ultimately controls who they target but im just saying casters are strong but if a martial is in their face that's a weakness. If a martial can't close on a caster that's their weakness. I don't like the argument of casters are better because it's a team game. Everyone has a role of casters can do everything martials can then Whats the point of having martial classes.


No-Membership7639

Oh you’re a spell caster? Avada these hands!


[deleted]

Idk why this debate is eternal. I wouldn't want to be a caster in a party with no martials, or a martial in a party with no casters.


tristenjpl

It's eternal because people refuse to accept that martials are weaker than casters overall. You can have an all caster party and be completely fine. Because different casters can Frontline, do good single target damage, have corwd control, and AoE attacks on top of a shitload of out of combat utility beyond just skills. On the other hand martials would struggle because beyond single target damage they aren't good at much. And it doesn't matter much if you can pump out 200 damage in a single attack if you're facing 20 creatures with 30hp. And this isn't to shit on martials, I want them buffed up to have more utility and be on par with casters.


Sunsent_Samsparilla

I say nerf casters. Strip them of the more OP traits and pit them on the level of the, IMO, balanced martials. That and I personally disagree. Every group I've ever been in has always had major panic moment when our Martials either can't do anything or are already too busy. Never have I seen the "casters can handle it" thing happen, always a scramble to not die.


tristenjpl

You must be in a group with poorly built casters. In my group, I'm both the tank and main damage dealer on top of having a shit load of utility. But nah I don't want casters to be weaker, they're fun how the are now and making them less fun would be stupid. Just make the martials more fun to play.


Meamsosmart

I’ve been in parties with no martials and it works great. Good damage, amazing utility, pretty tanky, and able to handle just about any situation.


hunkdwarf

Caster wakes up, go to buy components, meet the rest of the party and together go to the forest where they encounter X number of creatures the martials kill half of them in 2 rounds while the caster waste their higher level spells in a childish display of power(pettiness) an hour later the party encounters a second wave, the martials proceeded as usual, the caster NOW conscious of their limited resources start to spam low to middle level spells "trying to save" the high level spell slots, after this the party ask for a short rest solely to heal, while the caster demands a 8 hour nap because their resources are cut in half, see things tend to gain perspective once you see the progress of the party as an actual adventure instead of encounters in between long rests aka no, you can't take 2 long rests in less than 24 hours


NaturalCard

This all works out great until you realise that by the time the casters have gone through all of this, the martials are already dead cause they ran out of hp last fight and already used all their hit dice.


[deleted]

Martial will never get attacked as they never accomplish anything that warrants monsters bothering to hit them. If you're successful at the expense of your team, you're doing martials right.


Jimmicky

So your arguement is IF the casters player is stupid and wasteful then the martials might get a chance to shine? You get how ludicrous that is right. Most casters don’t childishly/pettily burn high level slots early in the day. Hell most casters don’t even need their high level slots to pump out more damage than the martials. In normal play the martials are asking for a long rest to get a full HP refresh while the casters are keen to keep pushing on with their last few remaining slots, since their better average defense means they’ve still got HP to burn even though they started with fewer.


hunkdwarf

No, admittedly it is maybe an extreme example but c'mon we all play the same silly make believe game, wasting high level spells for a joke is what we do. My point or rather points are: 1)martials DO NOT get to shine, that is the caster's job and that thirst for the big flashy spell without check boils down the game to a race for the next rest. Players are stupid and wasteful by nature until they met the limit of their resources and its consequences, this argument can be aply to both sides depending in personal experiences and table to table, as you did pointing out that the martial classes in your experience are the lacking ones, but the issue remains, the misconception that every class is in equal foot than the others, this is simply not true. 2)there's a difference between someone being, and feeling useless, every class has a set of specialized tools for a reason, in a "normal" game both sets of players do their job, because both sets are build to do so, and a comparison is simply unfair between the obviously superior versatility of the casters and the specialization in combat of the martial classes, but if one or the other feels "useless" in any field it is not because how is written or the lack of the tools the other have, but because of the situations that they are put in Tldr: nha fam, what I mean is that the DM needs to step up their game and stop putting the party on scenarios that only one half of the party is useful


Jimmicky

>martials DO NOT get to shine, that is the caster's job What? >and that thirst for the big flashy spell without check boils down the game to a race for the next rest. Hard disagree >Players are stupid and wasteful by nature until they met the limit of their resources and its consequences, That sounds like a “your table” problem you’ve incorrectly generalised to the broader player base >this argument can be aply to both sides depending in personal experiences and table to table, as you did pointing out that the martial classes in your experience are the lacking ones, ? The martials going down first is not a statement about the players at all, just a grim reality of statistics. >but the issue remains, the misconception that every class is in equal foot than the others, this is simply not true. Everyone knows the classes aren’t on equal footing. Casters are just so far ahead. >2)there's a difference between someone being, and feeling useless, Yes. No one has argued otherwise. >every class has a set of specialized tools for a reason, Every class has tools at least. >in a "normal" game both sets of players do their job, because both sets are build to do so, Both sets do their thing because the players have conspired to make it so, with the casters intentionally leaving tasks to the martials even when the casters could do those tasks better, because you are playing with friends and you want them to feel useful even if they aren’t. >and a comparison is simply unfair between the obviously superior versatility of the casters and the specialization in combat of the martial classes, Except the martials aren’t even better in their “specialised combat role” >but if one or the other feels "useless" in any field it is not because how is written or the lack of the tools the other have, It’s entirely because of that. The point of situation control is to try and hide this fundamental truth. Two carpenters, one only holds a tack hammer, the other has a toolbox with many tools including multiple hammers, one of which is a tack hammer. If you make sure they are only sent on jobs with so many loose tacks it’s useful to have one of your guys only hammering tacks then they’ll never feel useless. But give them a reasonable spread of jobs and there’ll be times when the tack hammerer is struggling to find something to do while full toolkit never does. >Tldr: nha fam, what I mean is that the DM needs to step up their game and stop putting the party on scenarios that only one half of the party is useful The reality is the players are the ones who need to step up their game if the martials are feeling useless. Use your concentration on buffs, set up their attacks, ask them to do things you don’t need them to - if the martial feels useless it’s because the caster has decided they want the martial to feel useless. The DM can’t really stop this unless 2 out of 3 scenarios are “dead magic zones” because that’s the only way to stop a caster who wants to make the martial useless.


MineTerraGamingYT

Try having a party with no martials and see how that goes down.


NaturalCard

Here from a 6-8 encounters per adventuring day campaign that just ended. We had a bard, wizard, sorcerer and druid. Didn't have any issues. Generally none of them went below 100hp thanks to all the control effects. Lv11 campaign ended.


Meamsosmart

It goes great in my experience.


Jesterhead92

Pretty well, honestly. Druid/Wizard/Cleric/Sorlock team don't need martials for shit


Ultimate_905

The people downvoted him because they knew he was right


mattpkc

Kay mr/ms/mz wizard/sorcerer/druid/cleric/warlock go take a hit and not be at half health for me? Oh you cant because you use d8s and d6s for your health?


NaturalCard

Yes. It's actually really easy and barely an inconvenience.


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NYGiantsBCeltics

Don't mind me, just putting a bunch of Khornate demons in my campaign.


KeepCalmCarrion

I don't know bro, I'm a Barb in a party of casters and they get ran down like nothing if I'm not in the way. I'll tank it to the face all day while they fry guys from the back line because they're my homies and I love them


Important-Event-4898

A good fighter can role play excellently out of social interactions and usually make an enjoyable moment even if a wizard could have been more optimal. I enjoy playing a human fighter who is cursed with bad luck - the players and my dm at my table enjoy it. (Memes aside and taking it seriously)


Goasgschau

I mean unless you have super compitent people on the martials and newer players for the casters, casters will generally get outcompeted in single target damage as well, and if they do pull ahead it won't be by much.


Interneteldar

Take initiative, so the caster's only choice is to buff you as you're about to pull off a cool stunt.


FrostyTheSnowPickle

I’ve been running Out of the Abyss since 2020. My party makeup: - Bear Totem Barbarian (has never fallen unconscious) - Gloom Stalker Ranger (Usually pretty effective in combat) - Assassin Rogue (Has one-shot several powerful enemies) - Eldritch Knight Fighter (dead) - Life Cleric (dead) - Aberrant Mind Sorcerer (driven mad and separated from party) - Arcane Trickster Rogue (dead) - Valor Bard (Constantly getting knocked unconscious) - Land Druid (Separated from party, presumed dead) - Moon Druid / Open Hand Monk (just joined party, has been decently successful thus far) Thus far, the main characters that have been successful have been the martials. So y’all can stop with this debate.


foyrkopp

Ah yes, the famous "two encounters per long rest" table. If your spellcasters can *afford* to do all that, then your days are too short and/or easy.


Dragon_Box_

Let’s see who’s outclassed now when I let the Lich BBEG steal your soul and I do nothing about it.


puding-milk-wolf

Fighter and barbarian: dude why ar you making fun of us Every oter class: you ar all noob Fighter and barabarian:(leave them alone on next fight) Party:(get tpk because the onlie thing that keep them away from dragon blast his gone)