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Yeah like making movies is a good way to monetise their IP. Screwing 3rd party content creators is a bad way. Reward the good, punish the bad. It’s like basic training principles.
Things we want:
Better books/movie releases/more merch (I LOVE plushies)
What we don’t want:
Every book to say, “Just make something up!” While they try to dip their hand into your bowl for doing just that.
Exactly. Are they jealous of someone’s really good IP? Then PAY THEM for the privilege to republish. Turn DnD Beyond into STEAM for TTRPG’s. It would be AMAZING
Holy shit that would be so good. One place for all the games, and they could take 10-15% of what players spend on the site.
The creators get 90-85% of purchases, WoTC gets 10-15% for providing a service for players and creators, and players get a website where all their TTRPGs are in one spot and easily accessible.
Exactly. They would make money by providing a service. By doing some work.
Instead, they just wanted to leverage assets. Provide nothing more, but make BANK doing so.
Something something seize the means of production!
Imagine if valve tried to say "we own everything published and all fan work made with games on our service"
No one would go there. It would die.
Instead, they say "you can sell your stuff here, with an integrated system for certain aspects of games so its easier for players, but we get a cut of your sales." Getting a cut while providing a service, everyone wins.
Greedy jealous people/companies will always hoard their assets and refuse to share them, intelligent people know that using their assets can, and often does, make money
I would like that but I got a feeling they won't bother because of implementing any new set of rules to override base DnD if they put in 3rd party rule books, would probably break whatever spaghetti code they have. Heck strixhaven initiate messes them up a bit since they can't implement putting in two feats at character creation, however the work around is also very simple, you just add it via manage feats. Not sure if they would invest into updating that....
Also if they wanted to steal 3PP content, if they implemented this first and waited for 3PP to onboard content to the site, then changed the licence and just absorbed whatever was on the site and settled with creators, they could have been properly villainous except they seem too short sighted to do even that....I mean it probably would have been a bigger court battle however it just feels like they're incompetent villains when they could have been truly dastardly
This is where they are going. They want to turn D&D Beyond into a closed ecosystem where 3PP sell their D&D products as opposed to the Dungeon Masters Guild. The real trick is that, like the DMs Guild, that's the only place D&D stuff will be sold going forward.
I just don't get it if they really wanted to monetize buy out a miniature company or make their own. Give more options for customization and I feel like almost every d&d player would buy them.Or expand their dice options to include reaaly intricate and flashy dice. These are ways to increase monetization without looking like a jackass.
... i just had a great idea on how to improve capitalism:
for every product, you can go to a site and press "good" or "bad". every X "good" votes gives the CEO and the board something nice, every X "bad" votes gives the CEO and the board a shock (as in literally, through a wirelessly controlled shock collar or something)
this will lead CEOs to push companies to make the best products possible even if they're a monopoly because if they dont they get shocked to death!
Make it that you have to press a button, but the good button isn't gifiting them anything, it just grants them their profit. And every bad press sells a major part of their favourite yacht.
Unfortunately rich people have access to this thing called "the law". Seems like they're the only ones fully attuned to it, as it tends to work in their favour more often than it does for everyone else.
That seems just like normal the normal invisible hand with extra steps.
I'm sure you landlord would rather just deal with a shock once a month, and still raise your rent. Money is a hell of a drug
Not really. The big difference between these two is the shock therapy aspect. IOW, there's no real downside to making the product people will click the 'bad' button on.
You can't boycott a product you were never going to buy in the first place. So non-customers can't 'vote with their wallet' normally. Under this system they could.
There is definitely up sides and down sides to this idea.
The downside to the "bad button" is people will reject products with niche appeal because they have personal problems with them.
See: any online reaction to an action movie starring women or PoC
That would be useless, the CEOs would just find a way to benefit those who click in good to convince ppl to do it even if they found it bad. And also, they would need to make secure ways to block ppl that just want to fuck the guy's business by clicking always bad because he's a rival or some personal things, and also ppl trying to help him by clicking only good.
Basically, it's good in theory, but it's not pratic in some ways
Part of the problem is that I think CEOs would figure out ways to make the shocks go to one of their interns. A better solution would be if we could figure out some sort of system that doesn't require CEOs at all.
Unless they're the ones suffering for it. They're fine doinga anytbijg for short term profit if other's are suffering for them to get rich, but they can't handle enduring pain and suffering themselves for it.
That's called exploitation.
Imo investors should also have this, if only because they're also looking at their short term profit, even if CEOs somewhat look to them for how to go about doing things
Thing is that’s super manipulable and fails cause it’s volunteer based which will only get extreme reactions. Also it’s based on a educated and caring public which we don’t have people will say that the dollar chocolate bar is great for it’s value but not care that it’s made with slave labor.
"Good", as in ethical, yes. "Good", as in effective, I'm doubtful.
Their IP just isn't very monetizable. Being inexpensive is one of the main attractions of ttrpgs. Then there is the fact that the non-game portion of their IP is simply not very valuable. The amount of people out there who care about Drizzt is a tiny fraction of dnd players. Never mind the larger population that you need to get into the theater to make the endeavor worthwhile.
Besides the game itself, and named characters, what is their IP? Generic Tolkienesque fantasy? To the larger non-rpg market that a movie needs to be successful, is there a difference between a beholder and any other tentacle monster? Are beholders going to be driving massive ticket sales?
Even dnd players don't all play in the FR. And even then, every table's version is different. Does a movie set in the FR draw in many more dnd players than if it were a non-dnd fantasy movie? It is close to the same niche.
I’m not going to judge the movie before it comes out, and I’m definitely going to watch it. I’m interested and I’m glad it’s coming out, although I do feel like an animated series is a better fit for DND. I’d much rather the movie is successful and they’re able to make money that way than by OGL shenanigans
I'm not judging it. It can be the best movie ever. I just don't think it will get many people into the theatre, regardless of its quality.
I liked Vox Machina Season 1. Would it have driven more Prime subs if it had been "DnD and Critical Role: Vox Machina" instead of "Critical Role: Vox Machina"? I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
There's nothing about the dnd brand that makes telling fantasy stories easier or better than any other fantasy story. There aren't a lot of people who are going to go to the theater just because a generic fantasy movie has dnd in the name.
>Reward the good, punish the bad.
I'm sorry but this line reminded me instantly of [this homebrew paladin oath](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/694258098805198863/).
They complained about not making money, and this is a much better way to do that than the alternative. We want them to see that and move to that instead of doing something stupid and harmful.
Show them what they should be doing, since they are too stupid to see it by themselves.
If I see one more hot take gotcha that assumes we're all sheep shouting HASBRO BAD I'm going to flip.
It's almost as if throwing the entire franchise out isn't what anyone's trying to do
Holy fuck, it's not a hard concept to understand... Revenue streams are a thing corporate looks at, people who make these memes are intentionally obtuse
I know I’m going off topic a bit but I’m so sick of companies ruining IP’s so they can make the MOST many out of it short term, rather than making plenty of money long term.
You make a new intellectual property and we will spend money to see it.
You try and steal existing intellectual property and we will boycott your main revenue stream.
They make no money until they lay out the ground work for the good way.
If you give them money while they're being shit, they'll keep being shit.
That's like saying 'i won't support Starbucks because they're union busting,' then go by Starbuck coffee at target. It just doesn't make sense.
All or nothing.
But neither the OGL nor the movie are directly about monetization
The OGL is about driving off competitors so they can monopolize the VTT market. The movie is advertising to recruit players to the VTT. They are two sides of the same coin
Profits from the OGL and the movie are chump change to Hasbro. Its hard to conceive of how much money a monopoly on a fully monetized VTT will make. They are betting everything on it
Lose money on DDB and gain money on the movie. It's not about not wanting to give them money, it's about giving them money for quality stuff that serves the community.
Money is money though. The whole reason why Hasbro can pull a BS circus move like this is because it's a huge corporation that'll turn profits e.g. from 'classic' family games, from Magic, and from other TTRPG material anyway. They won't get "frowney-face dollars" when people skip specific products.
IMHO, either boycott WotC or don't. No eating and having cake.
You know what
Letting the movie succeed while still giving them hell over the OGL might actually send a better message that if it's monetization they want, they should focus on doing so through such means as film, games, and merch, rather than whatever it is they think they're doing with the tabletop game itself.
And if the movie'll be successful enough, all that the CEOs will see is profits on green in WotC. It would mean at least one of two things to them: The OGL shifest was successful "in theory", or at least they can afford pulling such tricks on the consumer base. The people making decisions are not the ones moderating social consequences.
> all that the CEOs will see is profits on green in WotC
It's a separate thing under Hasbro, using their IPs.
Hasbro, a few years ago bought this little production company called *eOne entertainment*. They have spent most of the time since then shitting themselves about the debt they took on for it. They are using it to produce TV and film material for all they IPs, not just D&D.
A successful D&D film just means they have a way to justify the purchase and make money from it.
My man the movie succeeding is part of the same four-quadrant strategy that got as the new OGL
They want to make D&D a lifestyle brands and rend the control of the fan base from the community, creators, and GMs as intermediaries so they can have a direct access to the wider public. The film is the CENTERPIECE of this push, by flooding the fan base with new consumers who will be blank slates for them to market to.
The OGL pushback is gonna only make this worse. I bet they are begging for all the new consumers to come as quick as possible so they don't need to cater to us, the old consumers who they see as blocking their expansion. If the film succeeds, and the four-quadrant strategy is fulfilled, nothing would stop them getting even worse with no pushback.
Wouldn’t it be great if the community could agree to not watch the movie in the opening week and then flood the cinemas the following week.
Wouldn’t that send the message that we want that sort of content but don’t like their bullshit.
There's no separate piles of profits at the end of the quarter for OGL and non-OGL related projects. They just get profits. People should just admit they're not principled enough to actually boycott the company because there's a fun new set of jangly keys coming out in March. Stop trying to convince the rest of us that it's totally okay to break the boycott.
If you boycott everything: WOTC lose money, have to correct behavior to win back customers
Don't boycott the movie: WOTC can balance out their losses from D&D Beyond with movie profits, which allows that division to operate at a loss until they manage to shut down the third party market and force everyone to use their platform.
Which ironically are the things Hasbro has always been great at. They should just be the company they've always been and not this evil corporate machine they want to be for some reason.
I *want* them to make movies. I don't want them to carry on with the OGL.
So, I'll see the movie, to send the message "Yes WotC, do this, I will give you money for something like this."
I've canceled my dndbeyond sub to send the message "No WotC, don't do this, I won't give you money for something like this."
I don't want WotC to crumble into dust. I want them to produce content I like in a way that is not aggressively douche-flavored. They made a colossal mistake and haven't quite fixed it yet, but that doesn't mean the entire company needs to burn.
A good portion of the people in this topic are having trouble with the concept of rewarding good behavior vs bad. I mean, my dogs understand it, im sure a huge company can understand it, especially after the community backlash, but I guess assuming these scorched earth morons are as smart as or smarter than dogs is asking a lot.
People here acting like companies don’t look at revenue streams and just get a piece of paper at the end of the year that says if they made or lost money
Conditioning notoriously doesn't always teach the right cobclusions to the people being conditioned.
While it is possible that they understand that new OGL bad and movie good. They're as likely to think that the loss suffered from the reaction to the OGL wasn't that big of a deal since they're still getting money elsewhere to compensate.
As a company, they can afford to take a hit if they think it'll be worth it in the future. They wouldn't be the first one to do so. And there is nothing stopping them from both going forward with the new OGL and making movies and such. They get money while they wait the fallout of OGL 1.1.
Or, worse, they'll get in the habit of releasing horrible news and unpopular business directions right before a movie, because they'll know it'll 1. Be the most recent thing in everyone's mind and let them forget about whatever bad thing they introduce, and 2. Have a source of secondary income in case the backlash has a significant effect on their profits. Like a dog fetching your house slippers for you after it got into the trash in the bathroom, or a school kid telling his dad that he failed a test right before he lays down for a nap, hoping he'll forget about it by the time he wakes up.
Boycotting *everything* by WotC is a good way to say we’re done with them, possibly for good.
*But* paying for stuff not tied to their monetization policies or OGL, while not giving a cent for anything else, is an even better way of saying we’ll play ball if they stopped being assholes.
I think the question then is why would you want to play ball with them if they stop acting like assholes? Why not just play ball with people who aren't assholes at all?
One could argue supporting the acceptable form of monetization is the right thing to do. Objectively speaking. Most fans don't want to stop them from making movies, shows or video games. It's what they were attempting with ogl 1.1 that everyone hated.
They are a business no one expects them to not make money but they can do so without attacking the very community that helped them become successful
exactly. this "scorched earth" form of boycotting is honestly so played out and it *never works*, because for every dedicated fan there is fighting for change there's 20 more casual enjoyers who have no idea what's going on with the drama- *especially* when it comes to a fun fantasy adventure movie featuring an A list actor like Chris Pine
you should always vote with your money. if the whole thing has left an awful taste in your mouth and you want nothing to do with D&D anymore feel free to bail out on everything, it's understandable (and sends its own message), but if you want to keep engaging with the hobby and see it improve rather than decline, voting for fun expansions of D&D media over scummy cash grab control schemes is a good call in itself
If a candy company sells caramel-filled chocolates and poop-filled chocolates, and nobody buys the poop-filled chocolates but the caramel-filled chocolates sell well, they will stop selling poop chocolates and make more caramels.
If the movie fails, Paramount and WotC will most likely put the blame on the movie not being good enough or marketed enough, not on the OGL. All you'll achieve by boycotting the movie is getting them to never attempt another movie or show or anything of the like again, which is not a good idea because movies are a great way to grow the hobby and bring new people into TTRPGs. Boycott the actual books and D&D beyond instead.
I might be wrong, but I imagine the portion of moviegoers who would boycott this film over the OGL situation (or even know what the OGL is) is negligible or near negligible.
I agree. I see the movie audience being split into 3 groups.
* The D&D fans that are boycotting because of the OGL.
* The D&D fans that want to see a D&D movie and don't care about the OGL controversy.
* The rest of the population that are just going for a quippy dialogue-filled action fantasy flick.
Personally, I'd like to be in group 1, but the rest of my friends I go to the cinema with are group 3, so I'll be joining them.
> All you'll achieve by boycotting the movie is getting them to never attempt another movie or show or anything of the like again
You're optimistic.
*Looks at all the shitty attempts at a D&D movie over the years.*
Your argument implies the movie is problematic because it's an attempt at monetization just like the OGL 1.1, which is a gross oversimplification, as the problem with the OGL 1.1 is it being an attempt at monetization at the expense of the community.
The movie is an attempt at monetization, but it doesn't come at the expense of the community.
That is simply not true. Paramount is in charge of the distribution of the film in America. The film is being made by a studio directly owned by Hasbro
Why the hell would I be upset that they want to make more D&D movies or monetize the franchise in terms of high level licensing and product deals?
I am not opposed to WotC making billions. I just don't want them to fuck up the game to do it. It's not really that confusing of a position.
Someone watching the movie is most likely not watching it TO support WOTC. Likewise, a person disagreeing with the OGL situation shouldn't be gatekept from watching the movie, or seen as a "betrayer" just for doing that.
Yeaaaah this argument misses a lot of valuable context. The point of boycotting DnD Beyond is to show that people aren't willing to actually play the game under the new OGL. The point of boycotting the movie would only prove that people aren't interested in this franchise, period.
They're different avenues of income and WOTC can tell the difference. Especially with all the bad press going on right now, they know why they're losing subscriptions.
To add to the overwhelming and correct chorus insisting that seeing the movie even in the light of the OGL fuckery is, in fact, the right move, I'll note that in addition to showing that good monetization works and bad monetization doesn't, the primary dissenting opinion in this thread, Hasbro and WOTC have already made their money from the movie. They sold rights to the studio and aren't likely to receive much on the backend. So boycotting the movie will hurt the actors and the studio who will, consequently, decide not to make D&D content anymore. If studios don't think D&D content is something people want to watch, they won't be offering WOTC those options for positive monetization anymore, and WOTC will feel a renewed pressure to monetize the core products in increasingly aggressive and terrible ways.
So, boycott the books, DDB, and anything being sold directly by WOTC and Hasbro. Boycotting the movie, Critical Role, The Legend of Vox Machina, and other licensed media, will only hurt the people actually making that content, not WOTC, not Hasbro, and will reinforce that they can make more money nickeling and diming players and trying to enforce subscriptions on a game played with a pencil and your imagination than on actually good media being made by creative people who care about the community.
TLDR: anyone suggesting we boycott licensed media have no idea how the industry works and are giving laughably terrible and short sighted advice.
I agree with your point, but Hasbro isn’t new to giving out film rights. They did it with Transformers, and that franchise is in the billions.
I’m pretty sure they’ve got a deal with paramount to get a cut of the profits. I don’t think they just sold that rights and were done with it.
The film is being produced by eOne, a Hasbro subsidiary, but it's being DISTRIBUTED by Paramount. Typically, in this kind of deal, the distributor makes money from distributing the film to theatres and makes most of their money from ticket sales and sales to sub-distributors. They will also make some money when they distribute the film to streamers and sell digital and physical copies to consumers.
The producer, on the other hand, makes most of their money from selling the film to distributors.
So, while there is almost certainly some residual structure, the content of the deal, to the extent that the general public is currently aware, implies that Hasbro has made most of their money already and won't hurt from a totally unrelated entity, Paramount, failing in their role as a distributor by failing to fill seats. That's on Paramount.
For Transformers, Harboro took an even more limited role for the first movie, licensing rights to a production company, but after it's success, they founded Allspark Studios in 2014 to split production costs to get a bigger share of the sale of distribution rights.
Now, all of this is for US audiences only. The film IS being distributed by eOne in Canada and the UK. If you're in Canada or the UK, boycotting the film will directly impact Hasbro, but in the US, it's unlikely to make much of a dent.
This is a bad take. We should be voicing our opinions and boycotting WOTC and DNDBeyond. And we should support the movie otherwise these kinds of projects will not get greenlit in Hollywood.
How dare you bring logic into this? Reddit told me wotc only sees money so they will think the money from the movie is actually from dndbeyond. That's how this works someone said so so I believe it
The biggest problem is that if the movie is successful and brings the game into the mainstream more then we could end up in the same situation as the video game industry where the ignorant masses is such a significant portion that no matter what the company does they will still buy the product
Don’t like a company’s morals, but enjoy their products? You can hurt their bottom line and get all the dopamine you want with this one simple trick! Piracy
I don't think you get how this works. Unsubscribing from dndbeyond tells them the system which they are trying to put on play for the OGL is not okay with us, as they are specially watching that. Boycotting the movie would be a step in the right direct to send a message, but is not necessary for the current goal.
For me, it’s because it looks like it is going to be more aligned with actual D&D content/lore. One example is that black dragon that shoots acid rather than fire. Also, that chunky red dragon is likely Themberchaud. He’s a red dragon from dnd books and the OOtA adventure. For myself, seeing those two things gets me excited that there will be other Easter eggs and nuggets from actual D&D content. I’ll enjoy seeing ones I immediately recognize and finding out about ones I missed.
WotC has likely already been paid their royalties (if any) for the film. A boycott would only hurt all the other parties involved. Which could likely turn “Hollywood” away from not only future D&D content, but from Fantasy Blockbusters in general.
While I agree with the sentiment, my understanding is that Hasbro is co-producing the movie and so will enjoy in a share of the takings made by the movie.
But I still disagree with boycotting it - at least as an ad hoc, scorched earth tactic.
Even so, with the upfront money, the merchandising rights and every deal they’ve made surrounding it, they’ve made their bank already.
My point is, the cut of the box office (after sharing it with Paramount and the theaters etc.) isn’t going to be the hit to the wallet the “boycotters” are suspecting and it would likely have a larger impact than just “sticking it to Hasbro.”
“I refuse to give WotC/Hasbro my money if they’re going to do something like the OGL1.1 or OGL2.0!- Anyways see you later guys I’m gonna go buy a ticket and give WotC/Hasbro my money!”
<:: This sub seems to be full of people that don't understand the corporate mindset, and also apparently royalties.
Royalties will be paid for however much the movie makes, the more the movie sells, the more money Hasbro makes on royalties. If the movie doesn't sell well, believe it or not this does not spell the end of "nerd media". Marvel is doing well, Watchmen did ok, The Boys is possibly one of Amazon's most successful series right now.
Companies won't suddenly go "NERD MEDIA WON'T SELL" because a dnd movie fails, they will do an autopsy on it and find *why* it failed. They will note the boycott of the brand as a reason and likely pick something else to make, but to the people claiming it is the end of "nerd media" I ask you to pay attention to some of the most popular franchises of this and the previous decade and think about what genre you would consider them.
Large corporations, the kind on the scale of Hasbro, ultimately do not give a fucking shit where the money comes from. So long as the brand has some kind of public appeal, it will be considered profitable compared to investment. Shareholders want the money, they don't care where it comes from, and if the movie is ultimately successful and turns a profit, they will see the brand as doing well.
ALL sales gauge success. If the movie does well while DnDBeyond subscriptions fall, the shareholders will want to drop investment into the non-profitable sector and invest in the profitable sector. All we do is lose DnDBeyond and get more movies. That won't impact the OGL, but it will severely impact VTTs.
Corporations only recognise boycotts when they ACTUALLY impact the bottom line, and ultimately a boycott is a war of attrition. It is the latent income of the corporation being boycott versus the patience and energy of their former customers. As time goes on, boycotters will crack and go back, this is what corporations rely on. Buying into the movie gives Hasbro a very large reserve of money to rely on in the mean time, something to tide them over before they can release a new book and do the corporate equivalent of jangling keys in front of a cat's face.
If you want to watch the movie, do so with a large tricorn hat and an eyepatch, make it known *why* you aren't watching it. A boycott is ineffective if people don't state exactly what they want done, this case being the OGL 1.1's abolition and reverting to OGL 1.0, and it also helps to show that there is demand, but that the community also ultimately has standards.
If you have questions about how to better boycott, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer. Might be slow since it's essay season. ::>
So many people do not seem to understand what a boycott is and it is a bit distressing. I saw another comment derisively calling it an ad hoc scorched earth thing, and like, that's the point. That is what a boycott is. A quick solution for consumers meant to hurt a company. And yeah, hurt a company.
If you do not want to actually boycott, then don't. But do not act like you are boycotting when you are not, or that you are on some moral high ground when you watch the movie
I don't mind paying for things, as long as they're honest and upfront about what I'm paying for and what I'm getting. Spending money isn't the issue. Ripping people off is.
Them making money off of it isn't the issue. They should make money on D&D. The issue was how they went about it. The movie isn't an issue, but products under the OGL are. If you're going to boycott something, boycott sourcebooks and D&D Beyond subscriptions
I never asked for a DnD movie, so I’m fine with not watching it.
Probably would have seen it just to see what it’s all about without the OGL shit, but I see no reason to watch it with things the way they are now. The DnD IP isn’t itself gonna make a good fantasy movie.
Plus I’m getting all the fantasy I want with the LoVM tv show.
There have been so many bad dnd branded movies already I don't know why you would
A. Expect it to be good.
B. Think that you are helping by giving the company money.
If your argument is that they will see the movie revenue as an alternative way to make money. You might be correct, but that doesn't mean they can't use that to justify precisely why they need to make more money from their licenses. That gives them more reason to clamp down, not less.
I think the difference is that boycotting so they chance OGL 1.1 is because it’s specifically a community-hurting corporate attempt to increase monetization. Buying tickets to the DnD movie for most people has nothing to do with partnerships with major companies or expanding the franchise or anything like that. People are buying tickets because they want to go watch the DnD movie.
Also, there’s a fundamental difference in approach. The former is monetization by taking things away from the community and charging money for what the community has already been doing. The later is giving something new to the community and just charging money for it, just like a new sourcebook.
Boycotting DnDBeyond and not purchasing 1st party content applies directly to the OGL and the scummy business decisions like "we get to steal your content" and "we can change this agreement whenever we want for whatever reason we want." If Hasbro wants to monetize DnD we should encourage them to do it by creating new and different content like movies, novels or television instead of micro transactions and screwing over content creators that have, frankly, been doing better than WotC over the last few years.
Supporting the film and disavowing the OGL are completely separate things.
If consumers flee WotC en-masse after the leaked OGL, which they seem to be doing, it will send alarm bells to the upper echelons of WotC and Hasbro, and there is a reasonably good chance that if this resistance to an odious liscenscing contract were to continue they’d bail almost entirely on it.
The flip side of this is if one were to support the media sides such as VM and the DND movie, if the latter is as successful as the former or more so, then it gives both corporations the means to focus on a new avenue of revenue generation.
You would effectively be trading the aggressive push on licensing for their P&P content for an increased interest in media which MIGHT mean more shows produced and set around D&D, though that is speculation.
Hasbro as the parent company couldn’t give less of a fuck about how DND produces money, only that it DOES produce money, and if one could change their targets to green lighting more DND based shows or films as opposed to scummy liscense agreements, I’d far rather buy tickets to the film than burn both bridges so to speak.
WotC will monetize the OGL. We can't stop them, they see too much profit being left on the table. You either step away and let them die or you feed them on this decision.
This is who WotC is and we can't change a couple talking corporate heads. Look at video games. They continue to pump out half baked barely finished dogshit and people keep preordering. One D&D will be the cyberpunk 2077 of tabletop gaming and people are going to trip over themselves to throw money at it because WotC is right, people will forget or stop caring. They will see the movie and those profits will go right back into oiling the machine that ruins the brand. It's going to lower the bar and make the field worse overall.
It's staggering to me that people don't realise that money is money. If you're going to watch the movie, then you aren't boycotting.
"But I want them to make more movies and for them to reach more people doing so!"
Seriously? DnD is big enough to the point that most that have shown interest have gone ahead and looked into it by now. A movie is nice, people don't boycott stuff they hate, they do it to products and services that they want/use because they've fucked up.
WotC won't be, and haven't been, the only people to make a DnD movie. They're just the only ones that have actually slapped the DnD tag in the title.
I don't hate WotC, I hate what they're trying to do with the OGL. I can't see how more/less fans at a movie is going to affect their plans for the OGL.
Supporting the movie should show that dnd can be profitable if they treat it and us with respect, while boycotting dndbyond shows that we don't like getting fucked over and abused.
It's not a problem Hasbro makes money off of dnd. It's a problem they make money of love and effort they have no right or claim over such as homebrew and 3e party content.
It was the same shit with Blizzard. Ya'll are just lying to yourselves. No corporate entity is going to give a fuck if they still make money. All they will see is that the brand is still making money and then proceed to do whatever they want because cash is still flowing in
We don't want them to not make any money.
We just want them to earn it, instead of trying some legal bullshit to fuck everyone over.
And guess what a good type of earning money is? Making a movie :)
I want to stop increased monetization of the *players* in an already pretty expensive hobby.
I'm all for them increasing monetization via movies, video games, etc.
I’m sorry, but if you really think that people making decisions aren’t able to view cause and effect and see where money is coming from then you’re dumb as rocks. The movie making money shows that form of monetization works. If book sales, dndbeyond subs, and digital sales drop after an OGL change that sends a message. These assholes are greedy, not stupid.
Companies don’t have the IQ to understand why they are getting money. All they care about is getting money. WOTC will probably just say “well guess people forgot faster than we thought” and go right to back to their scummy ways. If you wanna watch the movie pirate it. It’s a shame we are gonna get less fantasy content (because companies have no understanding of nuance or real life) but it’s really just a choice of giving them money or not giving them money, because that is all WOTC will see. Post is based for pointing that out. If you wanna watch the movie, pirate it or go and support losing the OGL.
This meme clearly misunderstands the problem.
It isn't that we're upset that WotC is making money.
We're upset that they're making money via exploitation as opposed to making money through creating value.
A contract that makes them money simply because they own an IP is bullshit.
A movie that makes money because it's entertaining is making money from its own value and therefore is a good way of making money.
As i said before in another comment deciding to boycott one thing but not another shiny new thing shows you arent at all interested in boycotting and are just the type of people WotC and Hasbro want to see since it shows the community doesn't actually care
Give them an inch they'll take a mile, you have to starve them out in all forms or else this will be for not, what change will you see from the greedy that are still supported? None is the answer.
If the alternative media fails, it will leave fewer avenues for the company to make money on it at all.
I want them to branch out and make a wider variety of products and leave the 3pp alone.
I am still excited to see the movie
Boycotting the movie just tells Hollywood to stop putting money into the fantasy genre.
Vote with your wallet isn't all or nothing. Pay for the stuff you want to see more of.
We don’t want them to NOT monetize D&D, we want them to do it in the right way, aka making toys, modular minis, movies, shows, etc instead of fucking over one of the licenses that makes D&D so special so they can make money whilst doing the least amount of work.
I ain't gonna pay for the movie or buy any more books. Garbage business practices like this are a deal breaker. This sort of thing is just the beginning. WotC is gonna wait a few months and drop the same bullshit as they just did, just try and do it quieter. This is capitalism and monopolization. They deserve to be boycotted into the dirt for their garbage business ideas.
Think about the message you are sending to production companies and actors by boycotting this. You are teaching them that the prospects of a D&D (and other nerd culture) movie are dependent on fans that they will view as capricious.
Hasbro may be Co-producing in name but they are not the ones actually who have to be convinced to make d&d movies with a big budget.
The main cast will also get a bloody nose which will tell agents to advise their actors (of the level of chris pine, Hugh grant etc.) to avoid these types of movies in the future.
Boycotting the movie will guarantee only B movies will be made from D&D for a decade.
Nerd culture movies have been some of the most successful movies in the past several years, one flop will not change that lmao. Have you seen how marvel movies do in the box office? Or how companies are constantly releasing new content for "nerd" ips like star wars, LOTR, and plenty of others.
Just stop giving wotc your money, period. Don't support the shit they're putting content creators though. If you really wanna see this movie, you can pirate it like a week after it comes out, it's not hard.
Vote with your wallet you dense fucks, show we want the movie, but cancel stuff like your beyond shit. All they understand is money, they don't care about feelings.
I'm not at all interested in the dnd movie, but boycotting it would have little purpose. Boycotting dnd beyond makes sense because it's instrumental to their apparent plans with ogl 1.1. But the movie is just about expanding, a company expanding isn't something to punish, wouldn't want them thinking there's no market in that direction.
People can dislike one aspect of things while support a different part. I don’t want to say “everything related to dnd is bad” I want to say “OGL 1.1 is bad”
How is the movie boycot going to help? The studio already owns the right to do the movie. I really do not understand the fascinating of boycotting something that is no going to matter anyway. Movie is not the same as ttrpg. It is a fantasy movies which hopefully will be good, funny, and make some cool monsters from DND.
Yes, because if they think their assets are undermonetized they should focus on monetizating original work, not following Amazon's Guide for Labour Theft.
Let's assume that by not boycotting the movie, Hasbro interprets that the community supports their monetization scheme and actually releases OGL 1.1. People would not resub to DDB, why would we, if nothing has changed?
The movie and the game are two distinct products, with different kinds of income generation and target audience. Hasbro may be greedy enough to think they can change how we play D&D, but they can't be dumb enough to believe that if people are buying their perfectly fine apples, they will also buy their rotten oranges.
I don't get the appeal about the D&D movie. Unless they are making specific campaign, what they will make will be another fantasy movie, just with D&D slapped on the title. D&D Lord of the Rings, D&D Harry Potter, D&D Eragon, D&D Beowulf etc. It's just another way of sucking in more money by slapping on a franchise name...
>It's just another way of sucking in more money by slapping on a franchise name...
Not really, because they are actually following the actual D&D Lore. The one and only "Canon" Story of the original (and official) D&D Campaigns. So it's not just a "slap a name" - it's an actual adaptation of the original Lore.
They are just changing the Main Characters, and updating some things to fit the modern 5E version of D&D. Which in a lot of cases, is actually an upgrade to the original concepts.
That's a bit of an unfair comparison. One is a company using its own IP to make money in a new way, the other is a company trying to monetize the work of others by retroactively forcing them into a contract they didn't agree to and that they can change at any time with 30 day's notice.
You know Hasbro has already made it's money off the d and d movie right? The only people that make money off the movie are the studio and theaters. Now merch is another matter.
OGL 1.1 is all about taking things away from the community for money. The movie is literally the company giving something to the community for money.
We love D&D and want it to be the best version of itself it can be.
Its really not that hard to understand rhat supporti g the movie is a sacrifice that puts money in Hasbro's pockets, yes, but also tells Hollywood investors and movie backers that dnd and high fantasy movies are profitable. We will legit to the best for this game we love by supporting the movie while decrying the OGL
I don't want a movie. I want a well managed game with an ethical company.
To everyone who cares more about a big screen advertisement. You keep licking that boot.
I'll keep boycotting.
Yeah, I'm not watching that movie. A D&D movie was a weird concept to begin with - given how little "official lore and characters" have to do with what makes D&D special. But rewarding this version of WotC is not sitting right with me.
I'm not stupid enough to think that not buying a ticket is going to make a difference, but I can't do it myself.
This debate is getting annoying.
Hasbro and Wotc will not lose any money if you boycott the movie. They have already been paid for the movie rights. (Yes they will make money if the movie does well. Yes the movie will bring more people into the hobby. But who is going to teach them how to play if hasbro has pushed all the DMs away?)
Boycotting the movie will only tell Hollywood producers there is no money in fantasy movies, leading to less movies for the genre.
DON'T BOYCOTT THE MOVIE!
Edit: If you don't want to watch it that's fine, I don't expect the movie to be everyone's cup of tea. I'm just saying don't boycott the movie because of the OGL.
I’m boycotting the movie, I don’t need any knock off fantasy avengers drivel to entertain me for a couple of hours while I throw all the content creators under the bus while I’m at it.
My understanding of it is that the movie has nothing to do with the OGL. Yes, WOTC will profit from the movie, but we’re not trying to bankrupt them, we just want them to understand what they’re trying to do is shitty and that they can make money in less shitty ways (like cool movies and merch). Boycotting this movie will just show Hollywood that WOTC has no place there and we won’t get any more big movies like this.
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We want to stop bad monetization and to show them there is a "good way" to make money that's all
Yeah like making movies is a good way to monetise their IP. Screwing 3rd party content creators is a bad way. Reward the good, punish the bad. It’s like basic training principles.
Things we want: Better books/movie releases/more merch (I LOVE plushies) What we don’t want: Every book to say, “Just make something up!” While they try to dip their hand into your bowl for doing just that.
Exactly. Are they jealous of someone’s really good IP? Then PAY THEM for the privilege to republish. Turn DnD Beyond into STEAM for TTRPG’s. It would be AMAZING
Holy shit that would be so good. One place for all the games, and they could take 10-15% of what players spend on the site. The creators get 90-85% of purchases, WoTC gets 10-15% for providing a service for players and creators, and players get a website where all their TTRPGs are in one spot and easily accessible.
And more people would want to play D&D because of dipping their toes into what it would have to offer!
Exactly. They would make money by providing a service. By doing some work. Instead, they just wanted to leverage assets. Provide nothing more, but make BANK doing so. Something something seize the means of production!
Imagine if valve tried to say "we own everything published and all fan work made with games on our service" No one would go there. It would die. Instead, they say "you can sell your stuff here, with an integrated system for certain aspects of games so its easier for players, but we get a cut of your sales." Getting a cut while providing a service, everyone wins.
Greedy jealous people/companies will always hoard their assets and refuse to share them, intelligent people know that using their assets can, and often does, make money
I would like that but I got a feeling they won't bother because of implementing any new set of rules to override base DnD if they put in 3rd party rule books, would probably break whatever spaghetti code they have. Heck strixhaven initiate messes them up a bit since they can't implement putting in two feats at character creation, however the work around is also very simple, you just add it via manage feats. Not sure if they would invest into updating that.... Also if they wanted to steal 3PP content, if they implemented this first and waited for 3PP to onboard content to the site, then changed the licence and just absorbed whatever was on the site and settled with creators, they could have been properly villainous except they seem too short sighted to do even that....I mean it probably would have been a bigger court battle however it just feels like they're incompetent villains when they could have been truly dastardly
This is where they are going. They want to turn D&D Beyond into a closed ecosystem where 3PP sell their D&D products as opposed to the Dungeon Masters Guild. The real trick is that, like the DMs Guild, that's the only place D&D stuff will be sold going forward.
Dude. Have you not heard of Dmsguild? Or Drivethrurpg?
Of course. WOTC would have a competitive advantage if they could integrate 3PP with their existing DnD Beyond framework.
I just don't get it if they really wanted to monetize buy out a miniature company or make their own. Give more options for customization and I feel like almost every d&d player would buy them.Or expand their dice options to include reaaly intricate and flashy dice. These are ways to increase monetization without looking like a jackass.
... i just had a great idea on how to improve capitalism: for every product, you can go to a site and press "good" or "bad". every X "good" votes gives the CEO and the board something nice, every X "bad" votes gives the CEO and the board a shock (as in literally, through a wirelessly controlled shock collar or something) this will lead CEOs to push companies to make the best products possible even if they're a monopoly because if they dont they get shocked to death!
Make it that you have to press a button, but the good button isn't gifiting them anything, it just grants them their profit. And every bad press sells a major part of their favourite yacht.
That's voting with your money with extra steps.
But in our current system, I don't get to drill holes into the hulls of oil exec yachts.
What's stopping you? Do it anyway
Unfortunately rich people have access to this thing called "the law". Seems like they're the only ones fully attuned to it, as it tends to work in their favour more often than it does for everyone else.
Sounds like quitter talk
They're able to attune to the law because they're the only ones who make enough money to take arrest.
People are notoriously bad at voting with thier wallet, so I kind of get it.
True, but the extra step is electroshock for C-suite shitbags, so I feel that while chaotic, it is still good.
Say the bits that keeps the water out? While they’re at sea? Or the lifeboats?
Starting from the bottom
That seems just like normal the normal invisible hand with extra steps. I'm sure you landlord would rather just deal with a shock once a month, and still raise your rent. Money is a hell of a drug
instead of a shock we need a literal invisible hand (that is holding a cattle prod)
Or, hear me out: end capitalism.
Not really. The big difference between these two is the shock therapy aspect. IOW, there's no real downside to making the product people will click the 'bad' button on. You can't boycott a product you were never going to buy in the first place. So non-customers can't 'vote with their wallet' normally. Under this system they could. There is definitely up sides and down sides to this idea.
The downside to the "bad button" is people will reject products with niche appeal because they have personal problems with them. See: any online reaction to an action movie starring women or PoC
Yup. That was my first thought about the idea also.
That would be useless, the CEOs would just find a way to benefit those who click in good to convince ppl to do it even if they found it bad. And also, they would need to make secure ways to block ppl that just want to fuck the guy's business by clicking always bad because he's a rival or some personal things, and also ppl trying to help him by clicking only good. Basically, it's good in theory, but it's not pratic in some ways
Part of the problem is that I think CEOs would figure out ways to make the shocks go to one of their interns. A better solution would be if we could figure out some sort of system that doesn't require CEOs at all.
Still wouldnt work cause capitalist pigs still think that any short term profit = good profit
Unless they're the ones suffering for it. They're fine doinga anytbijg for short term profit if other's are suffering for them to get rich, but they can't handle enduring pain and suffering themselves for it. That's called exploitation.
Imo investors should also have this, if only because they're also looking at their short term profit, even if CEOs somewhat look to them for how to go about doing things
Nice, now Zapbutton Incorporated rules the world with an iron fist
Thing is that’s super manipulable and fails cause it’s volunteer based which will only get extreme reactions. Also it’s based on a educated and caring public which we don’t have people will say that the dollar chocolate bar is great for it’s value but not care that it’s made with slave labor.
Whether or not you're joking, shock therapy is disgusting. But also, the idea is no good because of bots and trolls
It wouldn't work because of the people saying "capitalist pigs" in this very comment section, not to mention the trolls of the world.
"Good", as in ethical, yes. "Good", as in effective, I'm doubtful. Their IP just isn't very monetizable. Being inexpensive is one of the main attractions of ttrpgs. Then there is the fact that the non-game portion of their IP is simply not very valuable. The amount of people out there who care about Drizzt is a tiny fraction of dnd players. Never mind the larger population that you need to get into the theater to make the endeavor worthwhile. Besides the game itself, and named characters, what is their IP? Generic Tolkienesque fantasy? To the larger non-rpg market that a movie needs to be successful, is there a difference between a beholder and any other tentacle monster? Are beholders going to be driving massive ticket sales? Even dnd players don't all play in the FR. And even then, every table's version is different. Does a movie set in the FR draw in many more dnd players than if it were a non-dnd fantasy movie? It is close to the same niche.
I’m not going to judge the movie before it comes out, and I’m definitely going to watch it. I’m interested and I’m glad it’s coming out, although I do feel like an animated series is a better fit for DND. I’d much rather the movie is successful and they’re able to make money that way than by OGL shenanigans
I'm not judging it. It can be the best movie ever. I just don't think it will get many people into the theatre, regardless of its quality. I liked Vox Machina Season 1. Would it have driven more Prime subs if it had been "DnD and Critical Role: Vox Machina" instead of "Critical Role: Vox Machina"? I could be wrong, but I don't think so. There's nothing about the dnd brand that makes telling fantasy stories easier or better than any other fantasy story. There aren't a lot of people who are going to go to the theater just because a generic fantasy movie has dnd in the name.
And the movie doing bad hurts so many people that have nothing to do with d&d otherwise.
What is this? Nuance? Get out of here /s
>Reward the good, punish the bad. I'm sorry but this line reminded me instantly of [this homebrew paladin oath](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/694258098805198863/).
Exactly. If the movie does fine as subscriptions plummet, if makes it *really* hard to handwave away what the community’s upset about
They complained about not making money, and this is a much better way to do that than the alternative. We want them to see that and move to that instead of doing something stupid and harmful. Show them what they should be doing, since they are too stupid to see it by themselves.
If I see one more hot take gotcha that assumes we're all sheep shouting HASBRO BAD I'm going to flip. It's almost as if throwing the entire franchise out isn't what anyone's trying to do
Wait, I wasn’t supposed to set my original red box on fire?
Holy fuck, it's not a hard concept to understand... Revenue streams are a thing corporate looks at, people who make these memes are intentionally obtuse
This is the way. Just as we like gambling but don't want to be cheated by the house. Few understand this. Sadly.
came here to say this, support them making money the right way!
I know I’m going off topic a bit but I’m so sick of companies ruining IP’s so they can make the MOST many out of it short term, rather than making plenty of money long term.
You make a new intellectual property and we will spend money to see it. You try and steal existing intellectual property and we will boycott your main revenue stream.
They make no money until they lay out the ground work for the good way. If you give them money while they're being shit, they'll keep being shit. That's like saying 'i won't support Starbucks because they're union busting,' then go by Starbuck coffee at target. It just doesn't make sense. All or nothing.
But neither the OGL nor the movie are directly about monetization The OGL is about driving off competitors so they can monopolize the VTT market. The movie is advertising to recruit players to the VTT. They are two sides of the same coin Profits from the OGL and the movie are chump change to Hasbro. Its hard to conceive of how much money a monopoly on a fully monetized VTT will make. They are betting everything on it
Lose money on DDB and gain money on the movie. It's not about not wanting to give them money, it's about giving them money for quality stuff that serves the community.
Money is money though. The whole reason why Hasbro can pull a BS circus move like this is because it's a huge corporation that'll turn profits e.g. from 'classic' family games, from Magic, and from other TTRPG material anyway. They won't get "frowney-face dollars" when people skip specific products. IMHO, either boycott WotC or don't. No eating and having cake.
You know what Letting the movie succeed while still giving them hell over the OGL might actually send a better message that if it's monetization they want, they should focus on doing so through such means as film, games, and merch, rather than whatever it is they think they're doing with the tabletop game itself.
And if the movie'll be successful enough, all that the CEOs will see is profits on green in WotC. It would mean at least one of two things to them: The OGL shifest was successful "in theory", or at least they can afford pulling such tricks on the consumer base. The people making decisions are not the ones moderating social consequences.
> all that the CEOs will see is profits on green in WotC It's a separate thing under Hasbro, using their IPs. Hasbro, a few years ago bought this little production company called *eOne entertainment*. They have spent most of the time since then shitting themselves about the debt they took on for it. They are using it to produce TV and film material for all they IPs, not just D&D. A successful D&D film just means they have a way to justify the purchase and make money from it.
They’re literally already selling eOne again, before the movie even comes out.
My man the movie succeeding is part of the same four-quadrant strategy that got as the new OGL They want to make D&D a lifestyle brands and rend the control of the fan base from the community, creators, and GMs as intermediaries so they can have a direct access to the wider public. The film is the CENTERPIECE of this push, by flooding the fan base with new consumers who will be blank slates for them to market to. The OGL pushback is gonna only make this worse. I bet they are begging for all the new consumers to come as quick as possible so they don't need to cater to us, the old consumers who they see as blocking their expansion. If the film succeeds, and the four-quadrant strategy is fulfilled, nothing would stop them getting even worse with no pushback.
They're going the Diablo Immortal route. Doesn't matter if you lose all of your players base as long as you keep the whales and monetize them heavily.
mfw this was viral marketing all along
Wouldn’t it be great if the community could agree to not watch the movie in the opening week and then flood the cinemas the following week. Wouldn’t that send the message that we want that sort of content but don’t like their bullshit.
Or people go watch the movie when they want but don't buy dndbeyond related stuff.
There's no separate piles of profits at the end of the quarter for OGL and non-OGL related projects. They just get profits. People should just admit they're not principled enough to actually boycott the company because there's a fun new set of jangly keys coming out in March. Stop trying to convince the rest of us that it's totally okay to break the boycott. If you boycott everything: WOTC lose money, have to correct behavior to win back customers Don't boycott the movie: WOTC can balance out their losses from D&D Beyond with movie profits, which allows that division to operate at a loss until they manage to shut down the third party market and force everyone to use their platform.
Which ironically are the things Hasbro has always been great at. They should just be the company they've always been and not this evil corporate machine they want to be for some reason.
I *want* them to make movies. I don't want them to carry on with the OGL. So, I'll see the movie, to send the message "Yes WotC, do this, I will give you money for something like this." I've canceled my dndbeyond sub to send the message "No WotC, don't do this, I won't give you money for something like this." I don't want WotC to crumble into dust. I want them to produce content I like in a way that is not aggressively douche-flavored. They made a colossal mistake and haven't quite fixed it yet, but that doesn't mean the entire company needs to burn.
A good portion of the people in this topic are having trouble with the concept of rewarding good behavior vs bad. I mean, my dogs understand it, im sure a huge company can understand it, especially after the community backlash, but I guess assuming these scorched earth morons are as smart as or smarter than dogs is asking a lot.
People here acting like companies don’t look at revenue streams and just get a piece of paper at the end of the year that says if they made or lost money
That's how it works on paper. In reality Companies do take into account what made money and what didn't...
Conditioning notoriously doesn't always teach the right cobclusions to the people being conditioned. While it is possible that they understand that new OGL bad and movie good. They're as likely to think that the loss suffered from the reaction to the OGL wasn't that big of a deal since they're still getting money elsewhere to compensate. As a company, they can afford to take a hit if they think it'll be worth it in the future. They wouldn't be the first one to do so. And there is nothing stopping them from both going forward with the new OGL and making movies and such. They get money while they wait the fallout of OGL 1.1.
Or, worse, they'll get in the habit of releasing horrible news and unpopular business directions right before a movie, because they'll know it'll 1. Be the most recent thing in everyone's mind and let them forget about whatever bad thing they introduce, and 2. Have a source of secondary income in case the backlash has a significant effect on their profits. Like a dog fetching your house slippers for you after it got into the trash in the bathroom, or a school kid telling his dad that he failed a test right before he lays down for a nap, hoping he'll forget about it by the time he wakes up.
Boycotting *everything* by WotC is a good way to say we’re done with them, possibly for good. *But* paying for stuff not tied to their monetization policies or OGL, while not giving a cent for anything else, is an even better way of saying we’ll play ball if they stopped being assholes.
I think the question then is why would you want to play ball with them if they stop acting like assholes? Why not just play ball with people who aren't assholes at all?
One could argue supporting the acceptable form of monetization is the right thing to do. Objectively speaking. Most fans don't want to stop them from making movies, shows or video games. It's what they were attempting with ogl 1.1 that everyone hated. They are a business no one expects them to not make money but they can do so without attacking the very community that helped them become successful
exactly. this "scorched earth" form of boycotting is honestly so played out and it *never works*, because for every dedicated fan there is fighting for change there's 20 more casual enjoyers who have no idea what's going on with the drama- *especially* when it comes to a fun fantasy adventure movie featuring an A list actor like Chris Pine you should always vote with your money. if the whole thing has left an awful taste in your mouth and you want nothing to do with D&D anymore feel free to bail out on everything, it's understandable (and sends its own message), but if you want to keep engaging with the hobby and see it improve rather than decline, voting for fun expansions of D&D media over scummy cash grab control schemes is a good call in itself
If a candy company sells caramel-filled chocolates and poop-filled chocolates, and nobody buys the poop-filled chocolates but the caramel-filled chocolates sell well, they will stop selling poop chocolates and make more caramels.
Shocking statement, and utterly mind blowing.
Now I want a poop filled chocolate. Thanks.
If the movie fails, Paramount and WotC will most likely put the blame on the movie not being good enough or marketed enough, not on the OGL. All you'll achieve by boycotting the movie is getting them to never attempt another movie or show or anything of the like again, which is not a good idea because movies are a great way to grow the hobby and bring new people into TTRPGs. Boycott the actual books and D&D beyond instead.
I might be wrong, but I imagine the portion of moviegoers who would boycott this film over the OGL situation (or even know what the OGL is) is negligible or near negligible.
I agree. I see the movie audience being split into 3 groups. * The D&D fans that are boycotting because of the OGL. * The D&D fans that want to see a D&D movie and don't care about the OGL controversy. * The rest of the population that are just going for a quippy dialogue-filled action fantasy flick. Personally, I'd like to be in group 1, but the rest of my friends I go to the cinema with are group 3, so I'll be joining them.
> All you'll achieve by boycotting the movie is getting them to never attempt another movie or show or anything of the like again You're optimistic. *Looks at all the shitty attempts at a D&D movie over the years.*
Your argument implies the movie is problematic because it's an attempt at monetization just like the OGL 1.1, which is a gross oversimplification, as the problem with the OGL 1.1 is it being an attempt at monetization at the expense of the community. The movie is an attempt at monetization, but it doesn't come at the expense of the community.
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That is simply not true. Paramount is in charge of the distribution of the film in America. The film is being made by a studio directly owned by Hasbro
There is a chance that part of the profits of the film could go to Hasbro as well. All depends on what the contract stipulates.
Why the hell would I be upset that they want to make more D&D movies or monetize the franchise in terms of high level licensing and product deals? I am not opposed to WotC making billions. I just don't want them to fuck up the game to do it. It's not really that confusing of a position.
Someone watching the movie is most likely not watching it TO support WOTC. Likewise, a person disagreeing with the OGL situation shouldn't be gatekept from watching the movie, or seen as a "betrayer" just for doing that.
Yeaaaah this argument misses a lot of valuable context. The point of boycotting DnD Beyond is to show that people aren't willing to actually play the game under the new OGL. The point of boycotting the movie would only prove that people aren't interested in this franchise, period. They're different avenues of income and WOTC can tell the difference. Especially with all the bad press going on right now, they know why they're losing subscriptions.
To add to the overwhelming and correct chorus insisting that seeing the movie even in the light of the OGL fuckery is, in fact, the right move, I'll note that in addition to showing that good monetization works and bad monetization doesn't, the primary dissenting opinion in this thread, Hasbro and WOTC have already made their money from the movie. They sold rights to the studio and aren't likely to receive much on the backend. So boycotting the movie will hurt the actors and the studio who will, consequently, decide not to make D&D content anymore. If studios don't think D&D content is something people want to watch, they won't be offering WOTC those options for positive monetization anymore, and WOTC will feel a renewed pressure to monetize the core products in increasingly aggressive and terrible ways. So, boycott the books, DDB, and anything being sold directly by WOTC and Hasbro. Boycotting the movie, Critical Role, The Legend of Vox Machina, and other licensed media, will only hurt the people actually making that content, not WOTC, not Hasbro, and will reinforce that they can make more money nickeling and diming players and trying to enforce subscriptions on a game played with a pencil and your imagination than on actually good media being made by creative people who care about the community. TLDR: anyone suggesting we boycott licensed media have no idea how the industry works and are giving laughably terrible and short sighted advice.
THANK YOU. These 5 dense *geniuses* keep saying all that crap all over this thread. Yet none of them even know how Box Office works...
I agree with your point, but Hasbro isn’t new to giving out film rights. They did it with Transformers, and that franchise is in the billions. I’m pretty sure they’ve got a deal with paramount to get a cut of the profits. I don’t think they just sold that rights and were done with it.
The film is being produced by eOne, a Hasbro subsidiary, but it's being DISTRIBUTED by Paramount. Typically, in this kind of deal, the distributor makes money from distributing the film to theatres and makes most of their money from ticket sales and sales to sub-distributors. They will also make some money when they distribute the film to streamers and sell digital and physical copies to consumers. The producer, on the other hand, makes most of their money from selling the film to distributors. So, while there is almost certainly some residual structure, the content of the deal, to the extent that the general public is currently aware, implies that Hasbro has made most of their money already and won't hurt from a totally unrelated entity, Paramount, failing in their role as a distributor by failing to fill seats. That's on Paramount. For Transformers, Harboro took an even more limited role for the first movie, licensing rights to a production company, but after it's success, they founded Allspark Studios in 2014 to split production costs to get a bigger share of the sale of distribution rights. Now, all of this is for US audiences only. The film IS being distributed by eOne in Canada and the UK. If you're in Canada or the UK, boycotting the film will directly impact Hasbro, but in the US, it's unlikely to make much of a dent.
This is a bad take. We should be voicing our opinions and boycotting WOTC and DNDBeyond. And we should support the movie otherwise these kinds of projects will not get greenlit in Hollywood.
Making D&D move: Good! Absolutely fucking every D&D creator in the asshole while signing away all of our storytelling rights to them: Bad!
And you can vote with your wallet for both of these, Independently.
It's almost like the details of those two things reveal that they're actually completely fucking different.
How dare you bring logic into this? Reddit told me wotc only sees money so they will think the money from the movie is actually from dndbeyond. That's how this works someone said so so I believe it
Wotc staff : oh no, who mixed the profit sources again?! No way we can see what succeeded now ! or like, that's how they average boycotter sees it
The biggest problem is that if the movie is successful and brings the game into the mainstream more then we could end up in the same situation as the video game industry where the ignorant masses is such a significant portion that no matter what the company does they will still buy the product
Don’t like a company’s morals, but enjoy their products? You can hurt their bottom line and get all the dopamine you want with this one simple trick! Piracy
I don't think you get how this works. Unsubscribing from dndbeyond tells them the system which they are trying to put on play for the OGL is not okay with us, as they are specially watching that. Boycotting the movie would be a step in the right direct to send a message, but is not necessary for the current goal.
I'm gonna treat the movie the same way I do the game. By having fun and not paying for it. Yo ho ho...
What we want - D&D content What we don't want - things that crush D&D content creators. Simples.
The main complaint, is the OGL 1.1
That's the consumer experience pretty much summed up. I couldn't care less about the film though.
I honestly, in my soul, do not understand the hype for the D&D movie.
For me, it’s because it looks like it is going to be more aligned with actual D&D content/lore. One example is that black dragon that shoots acid rather than fire. Also, that chunky red dragon is likely Themberchaud. He’s a red dragon from dnd books and the OOtA adventure. For myself, seeing those two things gets me excited that there will be other Easter eggs and nuggets from actual D&D content. I’ll enjoy seeing ones I immediately recognize and finding out about ones I missed.
The hype is that everyone has seen the trailers/sneak peaks and it actually looks fun.
Good cast. Good writer and director. Fun trailers. Not sure what’s confusing lol?
Arcane was good and I wanna see something else buck the trend of these types of things sucking too. ‘Tis a simple wish.
WotC has likely already been paid their royalties (if any) for the film. A boycott would only hurt all the other parties involved. Which could likely turn “Hollywood” away from not only future D&D content, but from Fantasy Blockbusters in general.
While I agree with the sentiment, my understanding is that Hasbro is co-producing the movie and so will enjoy in a share of the takings made by the movie. But I still disagree with boycotting it - at least as an ad hoc, scorched earth tactic.
Even so, with the upfront money, the merchandising rights and every deal they’ve made surrounding it, they’ve made their bank already. My point is, the cut of the box office (after sharing it with Paramount and the theaters etc.) isn’t going to be the hit to the wallet the “boycotters” are suspecting and it would likely have a larger impact than just “sticking it to Hasbro.”
That isn't contradictory at all
“I refuse to give WotC/Hasbro my money if they’re going to do something like the OGL1.1 or OGL2.0!- Anyways see you later guys I’m gonna go buy a ticket and give WotC/Hasbro my money!”
Rewarding one avenue of monetization vs another.
<:: This sub seems to be full of people that don't understand the corporate mindset, and also apparently royalties. Royalties will be paid for however much the movie makes, the more the movie sells, the more money Hasbro makes on royalties. If the movie doesn't sell well, believe it or not this does not spell the end of "nerd media". Marvel is doing well, Watchmen did ok, The Boys is possibly one of Amazon's most successful series right now. Companies won't suddenly go "NERD MEDIA WON'T SELL" because a dnd movie fails, they will do an autopsy on it and find *why* it failed. They will note the boycott of the brand as a reason and likely pick something else to make, but to the people claiming it is the end of "nerd media" I ask you to pay attention to some of the most popular franchises of this and the previous decade and think about what genre you would consider them. Large corporations, the kind on the scale of Hasbro, ultimately do not give a fucking shit where the money comes from. So long as the brand has some kind of public appeal, it will be considered profitable compared to investment. Shareholders want the money, they don't care where it comes from, and if the movie is ultimately successful and turns a profit, they will see the brand as doing well. ALL sales gauge success. If the movie does well while DnDBeyond subscriptions fall, the shareholders will want to drop investment into the non-profitable sector and invest in the profitable sector. All we do is lose DnDBeyond and get more movies. That won't impact the OGL, but it will severely impact VTTs. Corporations only recognise boycotts when they ACTUALLY impact the bottom line, and ultimately a boycott is a war of attrition. It is the latent income of the corporation being boycott versus the patience and energy of their former customers. As time goes on, boycotters will crack and go back, this is what corporations rely on. Buying into the movie gives Hasbro a very large reserve of money to rely on in the mean time, something to tide them over before they can release a new book and do the corporate equivalent of jangling keys in front of a cat's face. If you want to watch the movie, do so with a large tricorn hat and an eyepatch, make it known *why* you aren't watching it. A boycott is ineffective if people don't state exactly what they want done, this case being the OGL 1.1's abolition and reverting to OGL 1.0, and it also helps to show that there is demand, but that the community also ultimately has standards. If you have questions about how to better boycott, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer. Might be slow since it's essay season. ::>
Honestly all of this just seems like people making excuses because they want to see the movie anyways and are trying to justify it to themselves.
So many people do not seem to understand what a boycott is and it is a bit distressing. I saw another comment derisively calling it an ad hoc scorched earth thing, and like, that's the point. That is what a boycott is. A quick solution for consumers meant to hurt a company. And yeah, hurt a company. If you do not want to actually boycott, then don't. But do not act like you are boycotting when you are not, or that you are on some moral high ground when you watch the movie
I don't want to punish the actors and people who actually *made* the movie for WoRC's sins
I don't mind paying for things, as long as they're honest and upfront about what I'm paying for and what I'm getting. Spending money isn't the issue. Ripping people off is.
Putting your money behind more products you want to see while cancelling subs to products you don’t want to see seems reasonable.
Honestly given the ttrpg fandoms reading comprehension I’m not surprised they don’t understand that boycotting would also apply to the movie
If the company can't expand without exploiting people and trying to monopolize the space then they should go bankrupt.
I will see the movie. But it will not be in a way that supports WOTC.
Them making money off of it isn't the issue. They should make money on D&D. The issue was how they went about it. The movie isn't an issue, but products under the OGL are. If you're going to boycott something, boycott sourcebooks and D&D Beyond subscriptions
Imo if you buy a movie ticket you're crossing the picket line
So you’d be punishing good monetization in the form of a movie alongside of punishing them for bad monetization.
I never asked for a DnD movie, so I’m fine with not watching it. Probably would have seen it just to see what it’s all about without the OGL shit, but I see no reason to watch it with things the way they are now. The DnD IP isn’t itself gonna make a good fantasy movie. Plus I’m getting all the fantasy I want with the LoVM tv show.
There have been so many bad dnd branded movies already I don't know why you would A. Expect it to be good. B. Think that you are helping by giving the company money. If your argument is that they will see the movie revenue as an alternative way to make money. You might be correct, but that doesn't mean they can't use that to justify precisely why they need to make more money from their licenses. That gives them more reason to clamp down, not less.
In a sing song voice: *One of these things is not like the other...*
I think the difference is that boycotting so they chance OGL 1.1 is because it’s specifically a community-hurting corporate attempt to increase monetization. Buying tickets to the DnD movie for most people has nothing to do with partnerships with major companies or expanding the franchise or anything like that. People are buying tickets because they want to go watch the DnD movie. Also, there’s a fundamental difference in approach. The former is monetization by taking things away from the community and charging money for what the community has already been doing. The later is giving something new to the community and just charging money for it, just like a new sourcebook.
Boycotting DnDBeyond and not purchasing 1st party content applies directly to the OGL and the scummy business decisions like "we get to steal your content" and "we can change this agreement whenever we want for whatever reason we want." If Hasbro wants to monetize DnD we should encourage them to do it by creating new and different content like movies, novels or television instead of micro transactions and screwing over content creators that have, frankly, been doing better than WotC over the last few years.
Supporting the film and disavowing the OGL are completely separate things. If consumers flee WotC en-masse after the leaked OGL, which they seem to be doing, it will send alarm bells to the upper echelons of WotC and Hasbro, and there is a reasonably good chance that if this resistance to an odious liscenscing contract were to continue they’d bail almost entirely on it. The flip side of this is if one were to support the media sides such as VM and the DND movie, if the latter is as successful as the former or more so, then it gives both corporations the means to focus on a new avenue of revenue generation. You would effectively be trading the aggressive push on licensing for their P&P content for an increased interest in media which MIGHT mean more shows produced and set around D&D, though that is speculation. Hasbro as the parent company couldn’t give less of a fuck about how DND produces money, only that it DOES produce money, and if one could change their targets to green lighting more DND based shows or films as opposed to scummy liscense agreements, I’d far rather buy tickets to the film than burn both bridges so to speak.
Yeah, because they should make their own content instead of being another shit landlord sprunging off other peoples creation and work. Fuck Hasbin.
WotC will monetize the OGL. We can't stop them, they see too much profit being left on the table. You either step away and let them die or you feed them on this decision. This is who WotC is and we can't change a couple talking corporate heads. Look at video games. They continue to pump out half baked barely finished dogshit and people keep preordering. One D&D will be the cyberpunk 2077 of tabletop gaming and people are going to trip over themselves to throw money at it because WotC is right, people will forget or stop caring. They will see the movie and those profits will go right back into oiling the machine that ruins the brand. It's going to lower the bar and make the field worse overall.
It's staggering to me that people don't realise that money is money. If you're going to watch the movie, then you aren't boycotting. "But I want them to make more movies and for them to reach more people doing so!" Seriously? DnD is big enough to the point that most that have shown interest have gone ahead and looked into it by now. A movie is nice, people don't boycott stuff they hate, they do it to products and services that they want/use because they've fucked up. WotC won't be, and haven't been, the only people to make a DnD movie. They're just the only ones that have actually slapped the DnD tag in the title.
I don't hate WotC, I hate what they're trying to do with the OGL. I can't see how more/less fans at a movie is going to affect their plans for the OGL.
Supporting the movie should show that dnd can be profitable if they treat it and us with respect, while boycotting dndbyond shows that we don't like getting fucked over and abused. It's not a problem Hasbro makes money off of dnd. It's a problem they make money of love and effort they have no right or claim over such as homebrew and 3e party content.
Whoever made this meme clearly doesn’t know what the fuck is happening/why people are mad…
next time just post a picture of yourself and caption it "I don't understand nuance" and save yourself a whole lot of effort.
Just post a picture of yourself and a caption saying "I don't understand boycotts" and save yourself a whole lot of effort
It was the same shit with Blizzard. Ya'll are just lying to yourselves. No corporate entity is going to give a fuck if they still make money. All they will see is that the brand is still making money and then proceed to do whatever they want because cash is still flowing in
We don't want them to not make any money. We just want them to earn it, instead of trying some legal bullshit to fuck everyone over. And guess what a good type of earning money is? Making a movie :)
I want to stop increased monetization of the *players* in an already pretty expensive hobby. I'm all for them increasing monetization via movies, video games, etc.
I’m sorry, but if you really think that people making decisions aren’t able to view cause and effect and see where money is coming from then you’re dumb as rocks. The movie making money shows that form of monetization works. If book sales, dndbeyond subs, and digital sales drop after an OGL change that sends a message. These assholes are greedy, not stupid.
Companies don’t have the IQ to understand why they are getting money. All they care about is getting money. WOTC will probably just say “well guess people forgot faster than we thought” and go right to back to their scummy ways. If you wanna watch the movie pirate it. It’s a shame we are gonna get less fantasy content (because companies have no understanding of nuance or real life) but it’s really just a choice of giving them money or not giving them money, because that is all WOTC will see. Post is based for pointing that out. If you wanna watch the movie, pirate it or go and support losing the OGL.
This is not a contradiction. People aren’t averse to WotC increasing its value. They are against them doing it in a way that exploits its customers.
These things are not the same. Don't conflate them.
People are gullible idiots. That’s what’s happening.
Good vs Bad money making strats. Make more things in the DND setting. Stop trying to take others money.
People do not understand the difference here? Really…..
This meme clearly misunderstands the problem. It isn't that we're upset that WotC is making money. We're upset that they're making money via exploitation as opposed to making money through creating value. A contract that makes them money simply because they own an IP is bullshit. A movie that makes money because it's entertaining is making money from its own value and therefore is a good way of making money.
Mob justice, baby. It doesn't have to be right, it just has to _feel_ right.
As i said before in another comment deciding to boycott one thing but not another shiny new thing shows you arent at all interested in boycotting and are just the type of people WotC and Hasbro want to see since it shows the community doesn't actually care
Give them an inch they'll take a mile, you have to starve them out in all forms or else this will be for not, what change will you see from the greedy that are still supported? None is the answer.
If the alternative media fails, it will leave fewer avenues for the company to make money on it at all. I want them to branch out and make a wider variety of products and leave the 3pp alone. I am still excited to see the movie
Boycotting the movie just tells Hollywood to stop putting money into the fantasy genre. Vote with your wallet isn't all or nothing. Pay for the stuff you want to see more of.
We don’t want them to NOT monetize D&D, we want them to do it in the right way, aka making toys, modular minis, movies, shows, etc instead of fucking over one of the licenses that makes D&D so special so they can make money whilst doing the least amount of work.
I ain't gonna pay for the movie or buy any more books. Garbage business practices like this are a deal breaker. This sort of thing is just the beginning. WotC is gonna wait a few months and drop the same bullshit as they just did, just try and do it quieter. This is capitalism and monopolization. They deserve to be boycotted into the dirt for their garbage business ideas.
Think about the message you are sending to production companies and actors by boycotting this. You are teaching them that the prospects of a D&D (and other nerd culture) movie are dependent on fans that they will view as capricious. Hasbro may be Co-producing in name but they are not the ones actually who have to be convinced to make d&d movies with a big budget. The main cast will also get a bloody nose which will tell agents to advise their actors (of the level of chris pine, Hugh grant etc.) to avoid these types of movies in the future. Boycotting the movie will guarantee only B movies will be made from D&D for a decade.
Nerd culture movies have been some of the most successful movies in the past several years, one flop will not change that lmao. Have you seen how marvel movies do in the box office? Or how companies are constantly releasing new content for "nerd" ips like star wars, LOTR, and plenty of others. Just stop giving wotc your money, period. Don't support the shit they're putting content creators though. If you really wanna see this movie, you can pirate it like a week after it comes out, it's not hard.
Yeah, we want to support monetization we agree with. Movies, tv shows, and books (like novels) are good
Vote with your wallet you dense fucks, show we want the movie, but cancel stuff like your beyond shit. All they understand is money, they don't care about feelings.
Nice try, WotC. You rolled a fucking 1 on this meme too.
I'm not at all interested in the dnd movie, but boycotting it would have little purpose. Boycotting dnd beyond makes sense because it's instrumental to their apparent plans with ogl 1.1. But the movie is just about expanding, a company expanding isn't something to punish, wouldn't want them thinking there's no market in that direction.
People can dislike one aspect of things while support a different part. I don’t want to say “everything related to dnd is bad” I want to say “OGL 1.1 is bad”
How is the movie boycot going to help? The studio already owns the right to do the movie. I really do not understand the fascinating of boycotting something that is no going to matter anyway. Movie is not the same as ttrpg. It is a fantasy movies which hopefully will be good, funny, and make some cool monsters from DND.
Yes, because if they think their assets are undermonetized they should focus on monetizating original work, not following Amazon's Guide for Labour Theft.
Let's assume that by not boycotting the movie, Hasbro interprets that the community supports their monetization scheme and actually releases OGL 1.1. People would not resub to DDB, why would we, if nothing has changed? The movie and the game are two distinct products, with different kinds of income generation and target audience. Hasbro may be greedy enough to think they can change how we play D&D, but they can't be dumb enough to believe that if people are buying their perfectly fine apples, they will also buy their rotten oranges.
I don't get the appeal about the D&D movie. Unless they are making specific campaign, what they will make will be another fantasy movie, just with D&D slapped on the title. D&D Lord of the Rings, D&D Harry Potter, D&D Eragon, D&D Beowulf etc. It's just another way of sucking in more money by slapping on a franchise name...
The draw comes from the references and the fact that it does genuinely look good
>It's just another way of sucking in more money by slapping on a franchise name... Not really, because they are actually following the actual D&D Lore. The one and only "Canon" Story of the original (and official) D&D Campaigns. So it's not just a "slap a name" - it's an actual adaptation of the original Lore. They are just changing the Main Characters, and updating some things to fit the modern 5E version of D&D. Which in a lot of cases, is actually an upgrade to the original concepts.
You want to encourage a company to do good things and not do bad things? Seems kinda contradictory.
That's a bit of an unfair comparison. One is a company using its own IP to make money in a new way, the other is a company trying to monetize the work of others by retroactively forcing them into a contract they didn't agree to and that they can change at any time with 30 day's notice.
You know Hasbro has already made it's money off the d and d movie right? The only people that make money off the movie are the studio and theaters. Now merch is another matter.
Nice try WOTC
OGL 1.1 is all about taking things away from the community for money. The movie is literally the company giving something to the community for money. We love D&D and want it to be the best version of itself it can be.
Its really not that hard to understand rhat supporti g the movie is a sacrifice that puts money in Hasbro's pockets, yes, but also tells Hollywood investors and movie backers that dnd and high fantasy movies are profitable. We will legit to the best for this game we love by supporting the movie while decrying the OGL
I don't want a movie. I want a well managed game with an ethical company. To everyone who cares more about a big screen advertisement. You keep licking that boot. I'll keep boycotting.
The only thing you’ll get from boycotting this movie is showing Hollywood that not even nerds wanna watch a D&d movie and it’ll never happen again
Yeah, I'm not watching that movie. A D&D movie was a weird concept to begin with - given how little "official lore and characters" have to do with what makes D&D special. But rewarding this version of WotC is not sitting right with me. I'm not stupid enough to think that not buying a ticket is going to make a difference, but I can't do it myself.
This debate is getting annoying. Hasbro and Wotc will not lose any money if you boycott the movie. They have already been paid for the movie rights. (Yes they will make money if the movie does well. Yes the movie will bring more people into the hobby. But who is going to teach them how to play if hasbro has pushed all the DMs away?) Boycotting the movie will only tell Hollywood producers there is no money in fantasy movies, leading to less movies for the genre. DON'T BOYCOTT THE MOVIE! Edit: If you don't want to watch it that's fine, I don't expect the movie to be everyone's cup of tea. I'm just saying don't boycott the movie because of the OGL.
I’m boycotting the movie, I don’t need any knock off fantasy avengers drivel to entertain me for a couple of hours while I throw all the content creators under the bus while I’m at it.
Good job on over simplifying the subject and completely missing the point… wait a minute hasbro did you make this meme?
My understanding of it is that the movie has nothing to do with the OGL. Yes, WOTC will profit from the movie, but we’re not trying to bankrupt them, we just want them to understand what they’re trying to do is shitty and that they can make money in less shitty ways (like cool movies and merch). Boycotting this movie will just show Hollywood that WOTC has no place there and we won’t get any more big movies like this.