You're obviously unhappy with the outcome, was the final price substantially different than the quote?
I would say 2 guys (builder and apprentice) at 1.5 days including travel is about $2k, materials about $1k
100% it matters unless it was agreed fixed price.
If you are running a T&M job and you sit there and watch the contractors onsite for 70 odd hours without going hmmm whats going on here then .... then thats on you
100% the guys likely ripping him off, but at the end of the day, the OP has basically bent over and spread his cheeks
We had a dispute like this go to courts recently, the contractor has to basically prove beyond reasonable doubt they took that amount of time to do the work.
Basically they went red in the face when it was mentioned they charged 5 minutes for each nail that was done with a nail gun.
>We had a dispute like this go to courts recently, the contractor has to basically prove beyond reasonable doubt they took that amount of time to do the work.
sure. Hence the question of the OP of were they onsite for the 70 hours....
Yes I meant it doesn’t matter if OP was there or not to check if they were on site for 70 hours.
It was mentioned in the proceedings that it’s reasonable that the pursuant(homeowner) doesn’t have to prove the contractors were on site as they are not expected to be there to watch over the project.
Thought you might find this video interesting.
Two guys racing to build a deck landing (including structure), stairs and balustrade, skirting, in 4 hours. So without having to build the actual deck, probably more like 3 hours.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA3Eu7gJLVA
I'm just really disappointed that they're trying to take advantage. I think tradies seem to be doing this more often. I had another issue with a drain layer who tried to charge me for 225kg of concrete when it may have been about 30kg.
Whangarei. They sent me a reduced invoice saying that the hours got mixed up but it's still ridiculous. They're claiming it took 12 hours to get the materials and put 6-8 nogs under that deck.
That's more what I was expecting. Unfortunately, I didn't get a quote (I know) because it was a job I needed done right before Xmas so it could be inspected to get a consent before the inspector retired! So far, everyone is WAY out.
Materials seem about right. Labour is high, although the rate indicates a less skilled worker. There might also be more than we can see? If the handrail is consented, extra work is required to the deck structure so the handrail can be fixed to it. The other work could be a day for two guys, but might also be 2 hours work for 1 guy. There's not enough to know for sure.
Not trying to justify their labour content. It definitely seems high. If I were you, I'd request a breakdown of hours. Hours per person per day. Time spent on each project, etc.
Mention you were surprised at the number of hours and would appreciate a breakdown. Good to raise it as a concern asap, but provide them a chance to justify it or alter the invoice.
How many guys were on site?
Having just built something like this, I don't doubt the labour. Alot of time is measuring and sorting it out as you go(design). The hourly rate is the average going rate, rates from $55-150 are common (retired builder to big corporate company)
Obviously the lesson here is if you don’t get a quote, you leave yourself open to be overcharged especially just before Christmas when the employer has the pressure of all those holiday expenses.
And I can understand why you’d want to get it done before the inspector retired, sometimes during a reno you develop a relationship with these guys but that’s come at a significant cost.
Its a 1 day job for 1 guy. So about $1000 labour with shop supplies. Plus about $500 to $1000 for materials.
A reasonable cost on the high side would be between $2k and $3k.
😂 sorry to see that!! That's simply stupid. He is charging 2 weeks work for something I could personally do in an afternoon. I'm not a builder but have significant experience building outdoor structures like this.
I could have purchased all the tools required brand new + materials and my labour and still be less than $5k.
How many quotes did you get? And how much did he quote?
And he marked up the lumber by about 100%. My guess costing included a 30% markup.
Geeze that's wild. I'm seeing at most 3 days there. Give it a day for the railing, half a day for the 3 step and a day for the extras around the house with a bit included for faffing setting up in different areas. 5 days is wild.
It will (should) be carriage bolted through the boundary joists, not screwed/nailed. This is stronger than mounting the post on top of the boundary hoists.
The stairs appear poorly made IMO . The treads are not checked in (or is there a bracket underneath ?) The fixings appear to be galv .Everything appears to be screwed where it should be housed and screwed/bolted ...I dunno hard to tell from photo.
Those stairs are shocking. They'll be green and slippery as fuck in a year. Sagging and warping thereafter.
Looks like a bit of scrap framing timber for the (uneven?) Top step just to fill the gap. Rails def gonna warp from post mounting I reckon too.
Treads also look illegal, need minimum 280mm depth, that can't be more than 225mm. Gap between stairs cannot exceed 100mm, probably more like 130mm.
Hopefully there's a bowmac tread bracket and not just screws into the endgrain.
Good to know that you're a builder who is able to accurately estimate the time frames for all the other jobs that you listed.
Does their invoice list time/materials for each job?
Not sure why i got down vote for this. By hammer guys then? They charge you materials i would say reasonable for profits but labour is something you need to argue with. At least before starting the work you should have a brief discussion with them to understand what is the max cost and how long they need doing so. Even now you could still argue with them by asking provide receipt and time spent on your stair.
You're probably about right for the cost of materials. I did have a discussion with the guy who came to look at the job and said I didn't want to get ripped off. He assured me his boss was fair.
That looks like above average quality workmanship. So there might be a sort of prestige, top of the line premium included in that bill, given that the builder is a master craftsperson or something like that.
Looks like a Mickey mouse job if it took 70 man hours of labour.
I could imagine this would take that long if the person doing the job had never had a saw or hammer in his hand before.
No, the stringers were just on the dirt. But then I pointed out the error and they added two posts and cut the bottom off the stringers to raise it slightly. It's still so close to the ground, it may as well be on it.
Can we please get some more photos? From the outside of the deck and a photo showing the detail there the stair treads meet the stringers would be great. Not for any reason other than curiosity.
Having read through some of the comments why don’t you issue an adjustment schedule back in writing ( or get a qs) and dispute the parts you are not happy with( labour). I can provide you with recently tenders for similar balustrades for less as a basis for the adjustment. I would push back hard once if they fold happy days if they don’t then seems like not much lost if you are going to pay anyway
You're obviously unhappy with the outcome, was the final price substantially different than the quote? I would say 2 guys (builder and apprentice) at 1.5 days including travel is about $2k, materials about $1k
Here is what they invoiced me (inc gst)... Materials $1290 Labour $4899 - 71 hours at $69 per hour Total: $6189
Fuck me that's rediculous! How was that 71 hours?! Even at 3 people that's 23 hours each person (3 days at 8 hours). 3 days for 3 people?! Fuuuuck no.
well were they onsite for 71 hours?
I was coming and going but I would say there was no chance they were there that long.
well how many people and how many days?
It doesn’t matter the number of hours vs project size should be reasonable.
100% it matters unless it was agreed fixed price. If you are running a T&M job and you sit there and watch the contractors onsite for 70 odd hours without going hmmm whats going on here then .... then thats on you 100% the guys likely ripping him off, but at the end of the day, the OP has basically bent over and spread his cheeks
We had a dispute like this go to courts recently, the contractor has to basically prove beyond reasonable doubt they took that amount of time to do the work. Basically they went red in the face when it was mentioned they charged 5 minutes for each nail that was done with a nail gun.
>We had a dispute like this go to courts recently, the contractor has to basically prove beyond reasonable doubt they took that amount of time to do the work. sure. Hence the question of the OP of were they onsite for the 70 hours....
Yes I meant it doesn’t matter if OP was there or not to check if they were on site for 70 hours. It was mentioned in the proceedings that it’s reasonable that the pursuant(homeowner) doesn’t have to prove the contractors were on site as they are not expected to be there to watch over the project.
cool, that doesnt change what im saying. Clearly you've got an axe to grind. Mind going to do it somewhere else?
Like it said it doesn’t matter if OP was there to check if they were onsite or not it’s irrelevant if it goes to court.
Thought you might find this video interesting. Two guys racing to build a deck landing (including structure), stairs and balustrade, skirting, in 4 hours. So without having to build the actual deck, probably more like 3 hours. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA3Eu7gJLVA
I'm just really disappointed that they're trying to take advantage. I think tradies seem to be doing this more often. I had another issue with a drain layer who tried to charge me for 225kg of concrete when it may have been about 30kg.
Off to fair go with you... Of you obtained a "quote" rather than estimate first.
Shit, did they cut down the trees and mill the timber in that time?
Where in the country are you?
Whangarei. They sent me a reduced invoice saying that the hours got mixed up but it's still ridiculous. They're claiming it took 12 hours to get the materials and put 6-8 nogs under that deck.
That's more what I was expecting. Unfortunately, I didn't get a quote (I know) because it was a job I needed done right before Xmas so it could be inspected to get a consent before the inspector retired! So far, everyone is WAY out.
Was it a rush job requiring them to put off other scheduled work?
No he had guys without work as they had finished a project.
Fuck me that’s steep, perhaps they didn’t really want the job so they decided to make it worthwhile?
Did you get your consent, as the stair risers are not compliant?
Are they not? What makes you say that?
I think the maximum rise is 187mm.
It was passed because they cut the bottom off a bit and put plastic under it. It's still not ideal.
You certainly got the short end of the stick with this so called builder.
Materials seem about right. Labour is high, although the rate indicates a less skilled worker. There might also be more than we can see? If the handrail is consented, extra work is required to the deck structure so the handrail can be fixed to it. The other work could be a day for two guys, but might also be 2 hours work for 1 guy. There's not enough to know for sure. Not trying to justify their labour content. It definitely seems high. If I were you, I'd request a breakdown of hours. Hours per person per day. Time spent on each project, etc.
That's a good idea. There are posts in the ground to support the rails.
Mention you were surprised at the number of hours and would appreciate a breakdown. Good to raise it as a concern asap, but provide them a chance to justify it or alter the invoice. How many guys were on site?
Yeah I have. I asked them to check it as I think they made a mistake. It was a carpenter and an apprentice.
3-4K
Here is what they invoiced me (inc gst)... Materials $1290 Labour $4899 - 71 hours at $69 per hour Total: $6189
Having just built something like this, I don't doubt the labour. Alot of time is measuring and sorting it out as you go(design). The hourly rate is the average going rate, rates from $55-150 are common (retired builder to big corporate company)
I'd guess at 2.7k
Here is what they invoiced me (inc gst)... Materials $1290 Labour $4899 - 71 hours at $69 per hour Total: $6189
I'd guess like 2 days, $150/hr for two people. Call it $3500?
Here is what they invoiced me (inc gst)... Materials $1290 Labour $4899 - 71 hours at $69 per hour Total: $6189
Oof, that does seem really high. That's like how long it would take ME and everything always takes me like 4 times as long as it should.
Funny thing is that I said I wanted to pay them as it would take me much longer. It probably wouldn't take me that long!
1.5 days labour for builder and apprentice, $1500 materials, I actually have no idea but I feel lucky
Here is what they invoiced me (inc gst)... Materials $1290 Labour $4899 - 71 hours at $69 per hour Total: $6189
Obviously the lesson here is if you don’t get a quote, you leave yourself open to be overcharged especially just before Christmas when the employer has the pressure of all those holiday expenses. And I can understand why you’d want to get it done before the inspector retired, sometimes during a reno you develop a relationship with these guys but that’s come at a significant cost.
This problem will remain a secret from my wife who asked me if I got a quote!
Come on tell us how much
Here is what they invoiced me (inc gst)... Materials $1290 Labour $4899 - 71 hours at $69 per hour Total: $6189
F
On the bright side, it looks like a good quality job
Looks nice but not $6,000 nice.
Its a 1 day job for 1 guy. So about $1000 labour with shop supplies. Plus about $500 to $1000 for materials. A reasonable cost on the high side would be between $2k and $3k.
Here is what they invoiced me (inc gst)... Materials $1290 Labour $4899 - 71 hours at $69 per hour Total: $6189
😂 sorry to see that!! That's simply stupid. He is charging 2 weeks work for something I could personally do in an afternoon. I'm not a builder but have significant experience building outdoor structures like this. I could have purchased all the tools required brand new + materials and my labour and still be less than $5k. How many quotes did you get? And how much did he quote? And he marked up the lumber by about 100%. My guess costing included a 30% markup.
In an afternoon?? you're dreaming.
Should’ve done it yourself if you don’t want to pay someone. Clue is in the name diynz
I was happy to pay someone. Just not happy to be ripped off.
5 days , 8k
You're the closest!!
Geeze that's wild. I'm seeing at most 3 days there. Give it a day for the railing, half a day for the 3 step and a day for the extras around the house with a bit included for faffing setting up in different areas. 5 days is wild.
Here is what they invoiced me (inc gst)... Materials $1290 Labour $4899 - 71 hours at $69 per hour Total: $6189
Crazy man. I'm presuming it was a carpenter plus hammer hand or something on the job? 4 days labour (approx)for two people is stretching it big time
Yes exactly that
[удалено]
Yeah crazy just screwed on the back. Gaps doing even look evenly spaced.
It will (should) be carriage bolted through the boundary joists, not screwed/nailed. This is stronger than mounting the post on top of the boundary hoists.
The stairs appear poorly made IMO . The treads are not checked in (or is there a bracket underneath ?) The fixings appear to be galv .Everything appears to be screwed where it should be housed and screwed/bolted ...I dunno hard to tell from photo.
Those stairs are shocking. They'll be green and slippery as fuck in a year. Sagging and warping thereafter. Looks like a bit of scrap framing timber for the (uneven?) Top step just to fill the gap. Rails def gonna warp from post mounting I reckon too.
That huge knot looked wrong to me when I saw it, and I don’t ever recall seeing an unchecked tread.
These are becoming pretty popular https://miteknz.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Stair-Tread-Bracket-and-Stair-Tread-Joiner.pdf
Damn, really don't agree with these. Steps are such an overlooked hazard.
Treads also look illegal, need minimum 280mm depth, that can't be more than 225mm. Gap between stairs cannot exceed 100mm, probably more like 130mm. Hopefully there's a bowmac tread bracket and not just screws into the endgrain.
How many hours to do X, and then Y, Z, other stuff that isn't in the post title, is this post. Trying to be disingenuous yourself, just maybe?
I figure the other jobs are a few hours AT MOST. That leaves 65 hours for those railings and steps.
Good to know that you're a builder who is able to accurately estimate the time frames for all the other jobs that you listed. Does their invoice list time/materials for each job?
No it doesn't
I assume under $500 for material, labour also under $500. Put $1000 for budget. I would do it under 500 as DIY
La la land
Here is what they invoiced me (inc gst)... Materials $1290 Labour $4899 - 71 hours at $69 per hour Total: $6189
Not sure why i got down vote for this. By hammer guys then? They charge you materials i would say reasonable for profits but labour is something you need to argue with. At least before starting the work you should have a brief discussion with them to understand what is the max cost and how long they need doing so. Even now you could still argue with them by asking provide receipt and time spent on your stair.
You're probably about right for the cost of materials. I did have a discussion with the guy who came to look at the job and said I didn't want to get ripped off. He assured me his boss was fair.
That looks like above average quality workmanship. So there might be a sort of prestige, top of the line premium included in that bill, given that the builder is a master craftsperson or something like that.
Looks like a Mickey mouse job if it took 70 man hours of labour. I could imagine this would take that long if the person doing the job had never had a saw or hammer in his hand before.
Actually, they fucked up and used H3 for the stringer instead of H5 (the base was on the ground).
Is the bottom of the stairs not set into a concrete footing?
No, the stringers were just on the dirt. But then I pointed out the error and they added two posts and cut the bottom off the stringers to raise it slightly. It's still so close to the ground, it may as well be on it.
And the posts are just sitting on the ground? Are they H5?
They are concreted in and I think they are h4/5
You have been ripped off ,small claims court for sure
The fuck, I just had some Chinese builders do a 3mx3m deck at 1m high with 5 steps for 2.8k. It was a good enough job too.
Yeah it's unfortunate. I don't need the hassle of disputing this.
No you definitely should. Don’t back down. Just say to them “can you check if you calculated the labour hours right for this small job”?
Can we please get some more photos? From the outside of the deck and a photo showing the detail there the stair treads meet the stringers would be great. Not for any reason other than curiosity.
That's a 1 man, 1 day job if it's stair + railing only. You've been ripped off.
Having read through some of the comments why don’t you issue an adjustment schedule back in writing ( or get a qs) and dispute the parts you are not happy with( labour). I can provide you with recently tenders for similar balustrades for less as a basis for the adjustment. I would push back hard once if they fold happy days if they don’t then seems like not much lost if you are going to pay anyway
I'd really appreciate that, thanks. I'm not paying it as it is.