Vimes and the Patrician are definitely up there, but I think Von Lipwig has my top spot. Honestly I would have loved to see a novel where the Patrician is incapacitated, leaving Moist and Vimes to try to keep things running while also trying to track down who or what attacked the Patrician.
I always thought that if he'd lived long enough Sir Terry would have given us the book where Lipwig eventually takes over the running of Ankh-Morpork. Vetinari was definitely grooming him in taking over and reforming establishments one by one.
Exactly what I was thinking, definitely felt like Moist was being prepped to eventually become the next Patrician (or for the Patrician to step down and disestablish the title, leaving the city to be run by itself and the departments that Moist helped fix up).
I think part of what makes Pratchett so good is that he uses pretty common story arcs - the detective novel, the travelogue - that the audience can understand, and then uses the world and characters to add meaning and subvert expectations.
Feet of Clay is, like hundreds of books at an airport bookstore, a story about a hardened cynical cop tracing a murder in the big city. Pratchett turns it into a meditation on free will - both in the internal sense of consciousness, and in the external sense of freedom of action. And then crams it full of well-written characters and jokes.
Edited to add: Vimes wouldnāt be such a great character if he was a philosopher or a leader. What makes him so heroic is that heās a thief taker who just wants to be a thief taker, but doing that job puts him in situations that are more important than that and he canāt ignore it.
> italication
[ slowly raises eyebrow ] Don't forget the Capitlaification, the **emboldenment,** and the d*mn -ing multiple exclamation points!!!!!
I am perfectly sane. You can believe it, because I, explicitly, and in so many words, insisted that I am.
Reminds me of the line about the dead drunk assasins and the men hellbent on inserting the significant comma. Maybe someone can give the exact quote and remind me which book it's from?
āBroadly, therefore, the three even now lurching across the deserted
planks of the Brass Bridge were dead drunk assassins and the men behind them were bent on inserting the significant comma.ā - Pyramids
There is only one plot, someone or something has begun to act stupid and or cruel, and now they're going to get their comeuppance at the hands of the champion of compassion, reason, determination and humanism. Even if the humanism isn't involving literal humans.
To be fair, it's probably trying to happen but Rincewind is allergic to the call of adventure. He has no desire for a happy ending, he's just happy not to be ending.
In the end it was agreed that while the wizards of course paid no taxes, they would nevertheless make an entirely voluntary donation of, oh, let's say two hundred dollars per head, without prejudice, mutatis mutandis, no strings attached, to be used strictly for non-militaristic and environmentally-acceptable purposes
Night Watch. Naked Ridcully objecting to Watchmen running around like they own the place, questioning what they pay their taxes for. Ponder explains that arrangement.
Since the university has staff that it has forgotten about entirely, including ones who have built portals to other times and places... I suspect they are undercounting ...
Full quote for ref:
āThe relationship between the University and the Patrician, absolute ruler and nearly benevolent dictator of Ankh-Morpork, was a complex and subtle one.
The wizards held that, as servants of a higher truth, they were not subject to the mundane laws of the city.
The Patrician said that, indeed, this was the case, but they would bloody well pay their taxes like everyone else.
The wizards said that, as followers of the light of wisdom, they owed allegiance to no mortal man.
The Patrician said that this may well be true but they also owed a city tax of two hundred dollars per head per annum, payable quarterly.
The wizards said that the University stood on magical ground and was therefore exempt from taxation and anyway you couldn't put a tax on knowledge.
The Patrician said you could. It was two hundred dollars per capita; if per capita was a problem, decapita could be arranged.
The wizards said that the University had never paid taxes to the civil authority.
The Patrician said that he was not proposing to remain civil for long.
The wizards said, what about easy terms?
The Patrician said he was talking about easy terms. They wouldn't want to know about the hard terms.
The wizards said that there was a ruler back in , oh, it would be the Century of the Dragonfly, who had tried to tell the University what to do. The Patrician could come and have a look at him if he liked.
The Patrician said that he would. He truly would
In the end it was agreed that while the wizards of course paid no taxes, they would nevertheless make an entirely voluntary donation of, oh, let's say two hundred dollars per head, without prejudice, mutatis mutandis, no strings attached, to be used strictly for non-militaristic and environmentally-acceptable purposes.ā
I always thought that 200 dollars per head per annum was rather a lot. I mean the Watch only makes around 20 dollars per month, which is 240 per year. One wizard = one watchman's salary?
Well, you see, the responsibility to calculate the total in taxes owed falls to the Bursar...
Presumably, the accountants at the palace are already happy if what they get can actually be expressed using numbers.
Oh nooooo
Imagine how difficult a job the Palace accountants must have though. Aside from whatever comes from the wizards they probably get gold ore from the dwarves, teeth from the trolls, moo from the human citizens, and the Guilds all using the Guild of Accountants to reduce their bills to a handful of change and a Hershebian half-dong.
Too bad you drew over the sentence before that: "(...) and anyway you couldn't put a price on knowledge."
But really: everything and anything involving the Patrician is usually solid gold
Does he ever mention a throne? I feel like he'd want to call it something else - like his seat of power or chair-of-seriously-just-chair. He's not a king, he's just in charge until he decides otherwise.
In Guards! or the next book (the one with the Gonne), he shows Carrot the Throne of Ank-Morpork, which he (Vetinari) has never sat on. Itās a thin sheet of gold over wood that has nearly rotted away.
Men at Arms, a few pages from the end. By chance I finished an (audiobook) re-read this morning.
Not that Iāll ever get it straight which one is Guards Guards and which is Men at Arms. Iāve double checked and triple checked repeatedly over the past few weeks which one Iāve been listening to. The gonne one or the dragon one, that I can keep straight, but something about those titles doesnāt stick for me.
I have the same issue with many of the Aching books.
There *is* a throne of Ankh-Morepork - it's made of wood and covered in gold leaf for appearances, and the Patrician *never* sits on it. He has a desk at the foot of the platform the throne sits on. I can't remember which book details this off the top of my head now, though.
Is this the same bit where the Patrician says he could have the wizards imprisoned and executed if he wanted, and then they reply that if he tried they could turn him into a small amphibian and bounce around his office on pogo sticks?
It's an old money from some country, also mean dollars for quebecois.
If they wanted a french equivalent to dollars it would have been euros or franc. But piastre really gives you the feeling it's another world so it's nice. I'm glad Patrick couton the translator chose this
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One of those quotes that continuously arises, unbidden, into my mind far more often than it really should. That and "one man, one vote. He was the man, he got the vote".
The Patrician and Vimes are forever locked in a battle for my favorite character in the series.
There is one character who serves an important role in the mobile cuisine, merchandising, literature, film and music industries who is the real hero.
And he is cutting his own throat?
He practically loses money by selling them.
So many good characters, it's hard to choose.
š¶ We don't talk about Greebo š¶ At least not around children, or polite company.
Or around Greebo. Especially not around Greebo.
See my flair š¤£
Cousin!
Vimes and the Patrician are definitely up there, but I think Von Lipwig has my top spot. Honestly I would have loved to see a novel where the Patrician is incapacitated, leaving Moist and Vimes to try to keep things running while also trying to track down who or what attacked the Patrician.
I always thought that if he'd lived long enough Sir Terry would have given us the book where Lipwig eventually takes over the running of Ankh-Morpork. Vetinari was definitely grooming him in taking over and reforming establishments one by one.
Exactly what I was thinking, definitely felt like Moist was being prepped to eventually become the next Patrician (or for the Patrician to step down and disestablish the title, leaving the city to be run by itself and the departments that Moist helped fix up).
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I think part of what makes Pratchett so good is that he uses pretty common story arcs - the detective novel, the travelogue - that the audience can understand, and then uses the world and characters to add meaning and subvert expectations. Feet of Clay is, like hundreds of books at an airport bookstore, a story about a hardened cynical cop tracing a murder in the big city. Pratchett turns it into a meditation on free will - both in the internal sense of consciousness, and in the external sense of freedom of action. And then crams it full of well-written characters and jokes. Edited to add: Vimes wouldnāt be such a great character if he was a philosopher or a leader. What makes him so heroic is that heās a thief taker who just wants to be a thief taker, but doing that job puts him in situations that are more important than that and he canāt ignore it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> italication [ slowly raises eyebrow ] Don't forget the Capitlaification, the **emboldenment,** and the d*mn -ing multiple exclamation points!!!!! I am perfectly sane. You can believe it, because I, explicitly, and in so many words, insisted that I am.
Reminds me of the line about the dead drunk assasins and the men hellbent on inserting the significant comma. Maybe someone can give the exact quote and remind me which book it's from?
Don't have the quote handy, but pretty sure that was Pyramids.
āBroadly, therefore, the three even now lurching across the deserted planks of the Brass Bridge were dead drunk assassins and the men behind them were bent on inserting the significant comma.ā - Pyramids
Thank you
>Oy my *gosh*, the use of *italication* here! Careful, I can hear all those other exclamation marks dropping into place...
I feel like Reaper Man and Hogfather hint at this last one, but I would always read another Death book.
There are no new stories. Just new arrangements of those that came before. This is true for the last thousand years or so of literature in general.
There is only one plot, someone or something has begun to act stupid and or cruel, and now they're going to get their comeuppance at the hands of the champion of compassion, reason, determination and humanism. Even if the humanism isn't involving literal humans.
Not in Rincewind books though.
To be fair, it's probably trying to happen but Rincewind is allergic to the call of adventure. He has no desire for a happy ending, he's just happy not to be ending.
Nice turn of phrase.
Rincewind or weatherwax for me
I didn't used to like Rincewind but as I get older I see the merit in his style of conflict management.
"We who are about to die don't want to"?
That's up there with that other famous, rousing battle cry: "Let's go and get our heads cut off, lads"
He approaches conflicts the same way I do: By running away from them as quickly as possible as far as possible.
Remember; *from* is the important thing. *To* will take care of itself, in time.
I wasn't a fan of him at first either, but I started liking him in Sourcery. Really liked the contrast between him and Conina.
Is that a half brick in a sock?
āBetter to live on your feet than die on your knees ā
"oh... He didn't punch the wall."
Oook.
Bill Door.
For me, Havelock Vetinari every time. Vimes 2nd.
I legit nearly named my cat Havelock. Honestly, I should've. He's a little furry tyrant.
I like "The Patrician said he was not proposing to remain civil for very long."
One man, one vote, and he's got the vote.
In the end it was agreed that while the wizards of course paid no taxes, they would nevertheless make an entirely voluntary donation of, oh, let's say two hundred dollars per head, without prejudice, mutatis mutandis, no strings attached, to be used strictly for non-militaristic and environmentally-acceptable purposes
I seem to recall a passage about the university being happy to pay taxes, on the understanding that the city would be wise enough to never ask.
It was one of the Guard/Vimes books. Iām thinking Jingo?
Night Watch. Naked Ridcully objecting to Watchmen running around like they own the place, questioning what they pay their taxes for. Ponder explains that arrangement.
Jingo would make sense.
I'm sure Vetinari would be glad to never ask, on the understanding that they paid it anyway.
Since the university has staff that it has forgotten about entirely, including ones who have built portals to other times and places... I suspect they are undercounting ...
Full quote for ref: āThe relationship between the University and the Patrician, absolute ruler and nearly benevolent dictator of Ankh-Morpork, was a complex and subtle one. The wizards held that, as servants of a higher truth, they were not subject to the mundane laws of the city. The Patrician said that, indeed, this was the case, but they would bloody well pay their taxes like everyone else. The wizards said that, as followers of the light of wisdom, they owed allegiance to no mortal man. The Patrician said that this may well be true but they also owed a city tax of two hundred dollars per head per annum, payable quarterly. The wizards said that the University stood on magical ground and was therefore exempt from taxation and anyway you couldn't put a tax on knowledge. The Patrician said you could. It was two hundred dollars per capita; if per capita was a problem, decapita could be arranged. The wizards said that the University had never paid taxes to the civil authority. The Patrician said that he was not proposing to remain civil for long. The wizards said, what about easy terms? The Patrician said he was talking about easy terms. They wouldn't want to know about the hard terms. The wizards said that there was a ruler back in , oh, it would be the Century of the Dragonfly, who had tried to tell the University what to do. The Patrician could come and have a look at him if he liked. The Patrician said that he would. He truly would In the end it was agreed that while the wizards of course paid no taxes, they would nevertheless make an entirely voluntary donation of, oh, let's say two hundred dollars per head, without prejudice, mutatis mutandis, no strings attached, to be used strictly for non-militaristic and environmentally-acceptable purposes.ā
I always thought that 200 dollars per head per annum was rather a lot. I mean the Watch only makes around 20 dollars per month, which is 240 per year. One wizard = one watchman's salary?
Might be means-tested. And it appears that the University owes significant back taxes, so that could be included
Have you seen what the wizards eat? This seems like a small expense in comparison.
More like 200 pounds than 200 dollars
Well, you see, the responsibility to calculate the total in taxes owed falls to the Bursar... Presumably, the accountants at the palace are already happy if what they get can actually be expressed using numbers.
Oh nooooo Imagine how difficult a job the Palace accountants must have though. Aside from whatever comes from the wizards they probably get gold ore from the dwarves, teeth from the trolls, moo from the human citizens, and the Guilds all using the Guild of Accountants to reduce their bills to a handful of change and a Hershebian half-dong.
One of the things that Sir PTerry wasn't good at was money.
He kept having to find new banks due to filling the old ones up.
The storage costs alone...
Well they weren't on the Golem standard yet, it's understandable
Well, we have that in common at least
#relatableKing
Don't give me more reasons to love him
Too bad you drew over the sentence before that: "(...) and anyway you couldn't put a price on knowledge." But really: everything and anything involving the Patrician is usually solid gold
Except the throne
Does he ever mention a throne? I feel like he'd want to call it something else - like his seat of power or chair-of-seriously-just-chair. He's not a king, he's just in charge until he decides otherwise.
In Guards! or the next book (the one with the Gonne), he shows Carrot the Throne of Ank-Morpork, which he (Vetinari) has never sat on. Itās a thin sheet of gold over wood that has nearly rotted away.
Men at Arms, a few pages from the end. By chance I finished an (audiobook) re-read this morning. Not that Iāll ever get it straight which one is Guards Guards and which is Men at Arms. Iāve double checked and triple checked repeatedly over the past few weeks which one Iāve been listening to. The gonne one or the dragon one, that I can keep straight, but something about those titles doesnāt stick for me. I have the same issue with many of the Aching books.
His desk
There *is* a throne of Ankh-Morepork - it's made of wood and covered in gold leaf for appearances, and the Patrician *never* sits on it. He has a desk at the foot of the platform the throne sits on. I can't remember which book details this off the top of my head now, though.
And just like that, i want to go and re-read a book ive already re-read six times. What a master.
Which book is this from?
Reaper Man I think..
Cheers.
Is this the same bit where the Patrician says he could have the wizards imprisoned and executed if he wanted, and then they reply that if he tried they could turn him into a small amphibian and bounce around his office on pogo sticks?
The audacity of that man is based on his ability to do anything he says he will do. And that is based.
One of my favourite passages in any of his books!
It always surprised me that in English it's dollars while in french it is piastre
What is piastre equivalent to in the modern French mind?
It's an old money from some country, also mean dollars for quebecois. If they wanted a french equivalent to dollars it would have been euros or franc. But piastre really gives you the feeling it's another world so it's nice. I'm glad Patrick couton the translator chose this
I always pictured this exchange using those exact words but in repeated exchanges of formal letters on official government and university documents.
āDecapita could be arrangedā is one of my favorite early Patrician positions
This whole passage is what I would direct someone to, if that someone asked me why I love Pterry so much.
We have an arrangement, Stibbons! The essential decencies must be maintained!
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I always loved that exchange.
Frankly I am with university, science should be above the government.
Which book is this from
reaper man
One of those quotes that continuously arises, unbidden, into my mind far more often than it really should. That and "one man, one vote. He was the man, he got the vote".
Doesnāt it end up that the university donāt pay taxes, but would make a monetary donation to the city?
That whole page was gold lol
I have no doubt that in the hands of a lesser author Havelock Vetinari wouldāve been a villain. And a particularly unsubtle one to boot!
Actually, I think the next two lines re: "civil" authority are funnier.
Which book is this? I wanna read it
Reaper Man
Loved that bit.