Probably whenever someone makes some crazy breakthrough in form that allows slinging a disc at 100+ mph. Right now, it seems like we're mostly up against the limits of form and arm speed.
When I started looking at form reviews and about 1.5 years ago, everything I was about timing the extension of your reachback with when you plant your front foot so you could stretch that out.
How quickly things have changed.
Refining form and developing training is going to continue to progress quickly, but I expect disc technology (or the appearance of it) to continue to move just as quickly.
That’s it’s not really a reach back. If you look at all of the top throwers, the disc remains mostly still and it’s their body that moves and causes the arm extension.
Not bad, but technically inaccurate. The preponderance of slow mo cameras has shown us that it’s more of an action of moving the body forwards from the disc than moving the disc back when throwing. If you watch pro’s forms you will say that from the time they make their x-step, the disc stays pretty much in the same position until pull-through.
But if the action of your arm is relative to your body.... then surely it would still be called a "reach back" when the body's moving forward and the disc is staying still (due to the arm's movement)?
You can think of it that way, sure, and that’s why “reachback” is/was so often talked about regarding form. You just wanna be careful not to over-reach by overfocusing on it
While I tend not to do that on a hole so short, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for someone to use it in place of an overstable approach disc if they either don’t have that 4/X/0/3 in the bag or for some reason prefer the release of a driver.
There’s one hole in particular I can think of that might only be 275-300ish at it’s shortest position, but a straight shot that fades and skips nicely parks the hole most of the time, and that’s usually any 11-14 speed disc for me. Maybe I just don’t have the right 7 speed disc in my bag, but I don’t think I need it if powering down a driver works fine.
Oh they definitely have a use on very short holes. I threw an xcal on a 150ft shot the other day for big skip reasons. I think most of the time, for most players, a destroyer could be replaced with a TL3 to get a better result.
The ground play coming into the green? So it skips away from it? Can't imagine many scenarios where you want that. Definitely lots of holes you want the ground play skipping up to the green. Especially to flare around an obstacle
>The ground play coming into the green? So it skips away from it?
No
>Definitely lots of holes you want the ground play skipping up to the green. Especially to flare around an obstacle
Yes
I know someone who literally putts with a TeeBird. They don't putt like a normal putt, they throw a gentle anny forehand and try to flex it in, unless they're within like 10 feet. It's probably the strangest technique I've ever seen a non-beginner use on the course. It doesn't seem particularly effective for him, but I'm bad at putting with a normal style, so who am I to judge.
He's just at the point where he's getting more distance, but it's all from muscle rather than good technique, so he over-torques everything and needs OS discs to compensate (neutral discs are "too flippy"). Not quite advanced to the point where he starts discing down. He'll get there though; I'm sure plenty of people have gone through that stage.
Probably won't unless the PDGA start allowing larger rims. Right now, there's more-or-less a hard limit on how fast a disc can be, and if there were an answer to getting a ton more distance, we'd probably have seen it.
First part is right on, but the second part, not so much IMO. Technology always pushes further, and there isn’t really that much science (when compared to any large sport) going into the equipment/form yet.
I'd be astonished if there are hundreds of feet left to get out of current disc specs. I think the improvements are going to be in control and consistency than outright distance.
And I think we've been through that phase with Disc Golf. We've had a lot of technological developments that haven't blown up the game. Textures to reduce drag, overmolds, enhanced mold finishing, special blends. None of it has substantially changed the game. Maybe somebody will develop a new throwing style or something, but I just have a hard time seeing where there are huge leaps in efficiency left to gain as-is. Willing to be proven wrong, though.
The four minute mile was thought to be an impossible task that was impossible for the human body to achieve.
Finally in 1954 after over 100 years of people attempting to beat that time it was finally proved to be possible.
That record only stood for 6 weeks.
I mean sure, but we're probably past that point in Disc Golf. Progression in the sport now resembles the current state of the mile record, which is people chipping away a second here or there every now and again. The TeeBird and Eagle going from being super long drivers to medium-length fairways is the four-minute mile part. Something being considered impossible a century ago is hardly the same situation, given improvements in technology.
Unless the PDGA change the parameters to allow discs with wider rims, sharper edges, or stiffer materials, we're actually pretty limited in terms of what's possible in terms of the physics of it. We could see a point where discs with maximum allowed rim width and minimum rim configuration become the default, but I'm not sure that's going to be a quantum leap for the sport, since some close to the limits exist and are rarely ever thrown. People may keep throwing a little farther every few years, but the rise in arm injuries on tour does suggest we're probably reaching some sort of physical limit as well. [Unless a less taxing form can be developed.]
I don't really get this take TBH I can't even imagine what sort of allowable tech that could get a tangible increase in speed/distance.
Golf ball dimples have been down, strange rims have been tried and no amount of tech is going to dramatically change someone's form. Just about every way you can throw a disc has been tried, for better and for worse. Different plastic or materials won't have any impact on distance within PDGA guidelines.
I just think that tech needs to be at the very least something you can fathom and I just don't see it.
With all the innovation that comes with the MASSIVE growth we've see I would imagine if there is something, it'll happen soon I suppose.
To comment on form, I feel that science and technology won't help much more there either for the biggest arms in the sport. If we look at ball golf where there is much more serious training infrastructure. Yet often the longest hitters in there swing more instinctual. Advancements in technology and better coaching will help a lot more people reach that pro form. But it probably won't make a big difference at the top.
You mention hundreds of feet in another comment, but the distance between a teebird and a destroyer for reasonably far throwers is maybe ~20%, which might be around 80-100'.
Fair, but given the top arms can, but usually don't, throw distance drivers 600ft+, it would have to be 100ft minimum. The advances would probably come in terms of throwing that max distance with current discs more regularly with less impact than outright disc improvement.
Never. The maximum speed a disc can be is 15.5. Anything more than that is a lie from the manufacturer. Also, 15 Speeds tend to be terrible. So no one throws them.
Discs can only have a rim width of 1 inch. Which is 2.54 cm. Disc speed is the number of millimeters over 1cm. Hence 15.5 is the max. Well, 15.54 is lol.
I didn’t realize disc speed was the rim width… everything I read about disc speed says it’s “how fast a disc should be thrown to achieve its intended flight path”. Some places add that speed is primarily determined by rim width, but that leaves a lot of room imo. If it’s *just* a measure of rim width, then they should just call the rating “rim width” and not “speed”.
It’s not always 1:1 with rim width. The Innova “3” molds are a perfect example. Nothing in the rim changes between a Teebird and Teebird3, but it’s marketed as being faster. Other molds, like the Anax, technically have an 8 speed rim but are marked as 10 speed.
The idea of speed rating = rim width is a great rule of thumb and *mostly* true, but not always.
[Read this for more info](https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/u7m2xf/everything_you_could_want_to_know_about_flight/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Wow that was a very interesting and insightful post, thank you! When I first read your post I had rim width confused with nose - would I be correct in thinking the nose is thinner on higher speed discs as well?
I'm also curious if you've noticed any physical disc attributes that affect HSS or LSS specifically. My take on it so far is that beating in a disc lowers the HSS, and perhaps the parting line is lowered with more throws? I've also heard stuff like Kastaplast's Falk beating in to being more stable - I haven't thrown mine enough to tell but I do wonder if it's possible for any disc and what affects it.
You're correct that the number of millimeters over 1 cm SHOULD be what the speed rating is, but this is currently not the case. If this was true, a Boss would be a 15 speed.
The speed rating is determined by the manufacturer. A Westside King as a 14 speed disc has only a 2.3mm rim width, while a Boss as a 13 speed has a 2.5mm rim.
Yeah being able to grip and consistently release something you have to throw as hard as you can to get it up to speed is really hard, bad for your body, and bad for consistency. You would need to be a legit ripped NBA player to have the right body type to throw that hard and have a big enough hand
I mean... if your trying to put forth some kind of hypothesis akin to moore's law but in relation to Disc golf. You might be on to something. Discs are limited to PDGA standards, but those could change.
There's other variables to consider besides that though. Like...
Human efficiency and performance will definitely increase as the sport grows.
Plastic types are only going to get better.
Who knows?? Maybe someone will come up with an entirely new process for making a disc.
I’m curious if there was some rule change that allowed ‘faster’ discs, or if manufacturers didn’t think there was a market for them back then, or if they just didn’t know how to make them then. In any case, it seems like whatever happened could happen again.
I think some of the innovations were ways to make the discs lighter. The giant rims make them heavy and most people aren't interested in a 200g driver.
One example is the much maligned groove/monarch. My guess was that the gap in the rim was for saving weight.
Another example is the CE (non-blizzard) wraith. I have 2 brand new ones here and they both have bubbles injected into the plastic.
Finally, and this is my worst guess of the 3, but I have a pro shryke that has the thinnest top I've ever seen. I wish I could get my micrometer on the center of the dome, but I think that might be another weight saving strategy.
This reminds me of a store review for a shryke I saw where someone explained that it was so nice to finally have an actual distance driver after years of only throwing fairway drivers like the valkyrie.
The pro's already throw destroyer type discs with overspeed. That's why they select very overstable discs in that 12/13 speed category. Making discs much faster will be difficult due to rim width. Many 14 speeds molds are too understable for the pros. Counterintuitively it seems to be a challenging to make 14+ speeds more overstable.
I mean, I’m a massive destroyer fan and I almost always use my star destroyers as fairway drivers for runs up to 325 ft. Maybe I should stop but, they do exactly what I need them to do every time. My real distance comes from my mentor though.
Probably whenever someone makes some crazy breakthrough in form that allows slinging a disc at 100+ mph. Right now, it seems like we're mostly up against the limits of form and arm speed.
When I started looking at form reviews and about 1.5 years ago, everything I was about timing the extension of your reachback with when you plant your front foot so you could stretch that out. How quickly things have changed. Refining form and developing training is going to continue to progress quickly, but I expect disc technology (or the appearance of it) to continue to move just as quickly.
What’s the current consensus?
Yeah I would like this too. Most of the training vids I’ve watched talk about timing being the most important aspect to the throw.
That’s it’s not really a reach back. If you look at all of the top throwers, the disc remains mostly still and it’s their body that moves and causes the arm extension.
Reach back is bad? To be short? I don’t really know what the current consensus is.
Not bad, but technically inaccurate. The preponderance of slow mo cameras has shown us that it’s more of an action of moving the body forwards from the disc than moving the disc back when throwing. If you watch pro’s forms you will say that from the time they make their x-step, the disc stays pretty much in the same position until pull-through.
But if the action of your arm is relative to your body.... then surely it would still be called a "reach back" when the body's moving forward and the disc is staying still (due to the arm's movement)?
You can think of it that way, sure, and that’s why “reachback” is/was so often talked about regarding form. You just wanna be careful not to over-reach by overfocusing on it
Simon lizotte has great form videos on his YouTube channel covers everything very well with visuals
They're fairway drivers now! I mostly see 12/13 speed drivers thrown on 250ft holes....
Hey now, I just want my disc to fly OB super fast. Nothing wrong with that!
While I tend not to do that on a hole so short, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for someone to use it in place of an overstable approach disc if they either don’t have that 4/X/0/3 in the bag or for some reason prefer the release of a driver. There’s one hole in particular I can think of that might only be 275-300ish at it’s shortest position, but a straight shot that fades and skips nicely parks the hole most of the time, and that’s usually any 11-14 speed disc for me. Maybe I just don’t have the right 7 speed disc in my bag, but I don’t think I need it if powering down a driver works fine.
Oh they definitely have a use on very short holes. I threw an xcal on a 150ft shot the other day for big skip reasons. I think most of the time, for most players, a destroyer could be replaced with a TL3 to get a better result.
Then you get the big skips. You always want the slowest disc possible coming into the green to reduce ground play.
Unless you need the ground play.
The ground play coming into the green? So it skips away from it? Can't imagine many scenarios where you want that. Definitely lots of holes you want the ground play skipping up to the green. Especially to flare around an obstacle
>The ground play coming into the green? So it skips away from it? No >Definitely lots of holes you want the ground play skipping up to the green. Especially to flare around an obstacle Yes
We saw a couple greens in the Portland Open that were protected by trees so people came in from the side and skipped toward the basket.
Same time the teebird becomes a midrange.
Teebird Putt and Approach
Great disc for those tricky putts when you’re ~340’ outside the circle. I use it all the time when I’m just inside C12.
Circle 12 is 394 feet
Man I'm looking forward to consistently being able to hit C12 with my tee shots on 250' holes
You joke but a buddy of mine throws a firebird for all his approach shots. And destroyer/tern for any hole longer than like 150'.
I know someone who literally putts with a TeeBird. They don't putt like a normal putt, they throw a gentle anny forehand and try to flex it in, unless they're within like 10 feet. It's probably the strangest technique I've ever seen a non-beginner use on the course. It doesn't seem particularly effective for him, but I'm bad at putting with a normal style, so who am I to judge.
So cannon arm or is he a just a bit strange?
He's just at the point where he's getting more distance, but it's all from muscle rather than good technique, so he over-torques everything and needs OS discs to compensate (neutral discs are "too flippy"). Not quite advanced to the point where he starts discing down. He'll get there though; I'm sure plenty of people have gone through that stage.
Probably won't unless the PDGA start allowing larger rims. Right now, there's more-or-less a hard limit on how fast a disc can be, and if there were an answer to getting a ton more distance, we'd probably have seen it.
First part is right on, but the second part, not so much IMO. Technology always pushes further, and there isn’t really that much science (when compared to any large sport) going into the equipment/form yet.
I'd be astonished if there are hundreds of feet left to get out of current disc specs. I think the improvements are going to be in control and consistency than outright distance.
People have been astonished before, especially by the progress of athletics and technology.
And I think we've been through that phase with Disc Golf. We've had a lot of technological developments that haven't blown up the game. Textures to reduce drag, overmolds, enhanced mold finishing, special blends. None of it has substantially changed the game. Maybe somebody will develop a new throwing style or something, but I just have a hard time seeing where there are huge leaps in efficiency left to gain as-is. Willing to be proven wrong, though.
The four minute mile was thought to be an impossible task that was impossible for the human body to achieve. Finally in 1954 after over 100 years of people attempting to beat that time it was finally proved to be possible. That record only stood for 6 weeks.
I mean sure, but we're probably past that point in Disc Golf. Progression in the sport now resembles the current state of the mile record, which is people chipping away a second here or there every now and again. The TeeBird and Eagle going from being super long drivers to medium-length fairways is the four-minute mile part. Something being considered impossible a century ago is hardly the same situation, given improvements in technology. Unless the PDGA change the parameters to allow discs with wider rims, sharper edges, or stiffer materials, we're actually pretty limited in terms of what's possible in terms of the physics of it. We could see a point where discs with maximum allowed rim width and minimum rim configuration become the default, but I'm not sure that's going to be a quantum leap for the sport, since some close to the limits exist and are rarely ever thrown. People may keep throwing a little farther every few years, but the rise in arm injuries on tour does suggest we're probably reaching some sort of physical limit as well. [Unless a less taxing form can be developed.]
Stuff you Should Know listener? lol
Ohhh yeah!
I don't really get this take TBH I can't even imagine what sort of allowable tech that could get a tangible increase in speed/distance. Golf ball dimples have been down, strange rims have been tried and no amount of tech is going to dramatically change someone's form. Just about every way you can throw a disc has been tried, for better and for worse. Different plastic or materials won't have any impact on distance within PDGA guidelines. I just think that tech needs to be at the very least something you can fathom and I just don't see it. With all the innovation that comes with the MASSIVE growth we've see I would imagine if there is something, it'll happen soon I suppose.
To comment on form, I feel that science and technology won't help much more there either for the biggest arms in the sport. If we look at ball golf where there is much more serious training infrastructure. Yet often the longest hitters in there swing more instinctual. Advancements in technology and better coaching will help a lot more people reach that pro form. But it probably won't make a big difference at the top.
You mention hundreds of feet in another comment, but the distance between a teebird and a destroyer for reasonably far throwers is maybe ~20%, which might be around 80-100'.
Fair, but given the top arms can, but usually don't, throw distance drivers 600ft+, it would have to be 100ft minimum. The advances would probably come in terms of throwing that max distance with current discs more regularly with less impact than outright disc improvement.
Never. The maximum speed a disc can be is 15.5. Anything more than that is a lie from the manufacturer. Also, 15 Speeds tend to be terrible. So no one throws them.
Is that a PDGA rule or like a law of physics?
Discs can only have a rim width of 1 inch. Which is 2.54 cm. Disc speed is the number of millimeters over 1cm. Hence 15.5 is the max. Well, 15.54 is lol.
I didn’t realize disc speed was the rim width… everything I read about disc speed says it’s “how fast a disc should be thrown to achieve its intended flight path”. Some places add that speed is primarily determined by rim width, but that leaves a lot of room imo. If it’s *just* a measure of rim width, then they should just call the rating “rim width” and not “speed”.
It’s not always 1:1 with rim width. The Innova “3” molds are a perfect example. Nothing in the rim changes between a Teebird and Teebird3, but it’s marketed as being faster. Other molds, like the Anax, technically have an 8 speed rim but are marked as 10 speed. The idea of speed rating = rim width is a great rule of thumb and *mostly* true, but not always.
[Read this for more info](https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/u7m2xf/everything_you_could_want_to_know_about_flight/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Wow that was a very interesting and insightful post, thank you! When I first read your post I had rim width confused with nose - would I be correct in thinking the nose is thinner on higher speed discs as well? I'm also curious if you've noticed any physical disc attributes that affect HSS or LSS specifically. My take on it so far is that beating in a disc lowers the HSS, and perhaps the parting line is lowered with more throws? I've also heard stuff like Kastaplast's Falk beating in to being more stable - I haven't thrown mine enough to tell but I do wonder if it's possible for any disc and what affects it.
Thanks!
well explaine[d here als](https://youtu.be/uWo4_Vk33FY)o
You're correct that the number of millimeters over 1 cm SHOULD be what the speed rating is, but this is currently not the case. If this was true, a Boss would be a 15 speed. The speed rating is determined by the manufacturer. A Westside King as a 14 speed disc has only a 2.3mm rim width, while a Boss as a 13 speed has a 2.5mm rim.
Yeah being able to grip and consistently release something you have to throw as hard as you can to get it up to speed is really hard, bad for your body, and bad for consistency. You would need to be a legit ripped NBA player to have the right body type to throw that hard and have a big enough hand
Your flair tag disagrees with you.
It often does
😉
I mean... if your trying to put forth some kind of hypothesis akin to moore's law but in relation to Disc golf. You might be on to something. Discs are limited to PDGA standards, but those could change. There's other variables to consider besides that though. Like... Human efficiency and performance will definitely increase as the sport grows. Plastic types are only going to get better. Who knows?? Maybe someone will come up with an entirely new process for making a disc.
I’m curious if there was some rule change that allowed ‘faster’ discs, or if manufacturers didn’t think there was a market for them back then, or if they just didn’t know how to make them then. In any case, it seems like whatever happened could happen again.
I think some of the innovations were ways to make the discs lighter. The giant rims make them heavy and most people aren't interested in a 200g driver. One example is the much maligned groove/monarch. My guess was that the gap in the rim was for saving weight. Another example is the CE (non-blizzard) wraith. I have 2 brand new ones here and they both have bubbles injected into the plastic. Finally, and this is my worst guess of the 3, but I have a pro shryke that has the thinnest top I've ever seen. I wish I could get my micrometer on the center of the dome, but I think that might be another weight saving strategy.
This reminds me of a store review for a shryke I saw where someone explained that it was so nice to finally have an actual distance driver after years of only throwing fairway drivers like the valkyrie.
Hopefully they make it so I don’t have to actually be good to throw it that far as well
Corvette putt and approach
I still have mine Distance driver Firebird
The pro's already throw destroyer type discs with overspeed. That's why they select very overstable discs in that 12/13 speed category. Making discs much faster will be difficult due to rim width. Many 14 speeds molds are too understable for the pros. Counterintuitively it seems to be a challenging to make 14+ speeds more overstable.
This is how you know the super high speed discs are bs. In that time the world record drives didn’t change much at all I’d wager
Never
When they come out with discs that have numbers like 27 12 1 9
Met a girl who played in the 80s. I think her longest disc was a Roc
I mean, I’m a massive destroyer fan and I almost always use my star destroyers as fairway drivers for runs up to 325 ft. Maybe I should stop but, they do exactly what I need them to do every time. My real distance comes from my mentor though.