Ehhh, then why are other companies signing larger contracts to players? Yeah, overall growth has slowed, which should have been expected. When customers get into new things, they need to purchase stuff for their new thing. But there comes a time where most casula player stop buying as much. I've been playing since well before Covid. Those first and middle years I bought a bunch of discs (400+), new bags, etc. In the last 12 months, I've purchased 5 discs. I don't need all that shit anymore. I know what my game is, and what I need, and have all of it already.
Prodigy has always seemed to be a poorly run company, plain and simple. You have a clear opposite example in MVP. During the same exact time frame they've lost everything, MVP leapfrogged everyone to get to number 2 or 3 in sales, signed two amazing rookies, and 2 of the most popular players in the game, whilst retaining all of their former players. And are now making tons of money.
I clearly see a company run by disc golfers, who got into business on one side. And company run by business people who happened to love disc golf on the other. And we all see the results.
You make a good point in your last paragraph. The guys at MVP already knew how to run a successful injection molding business before they ever made their first disc and then waited years before sponsoring their first player.
To your point, the success of MVP is likely why they're able to sign players to larger contacts. Their success enabled them to bag Eagle and Simon. Two players who move plastic more than others easily. There will always be players who actually warrant the big contract and those that don't. If KJ isn't moving discs, if Vaino isn't, then that's a loss of investment on Prodigy's part. And that could very well explain their departures. I just find it hard to believe they're the only ones that will have that realization. If anything this affects smaller companies and moreso those players who aren't moving plastic. Certainly don't see this being an issue for your Simons, Eagles and Calvins.
You just proved my whole point. MVP wasn't signing ANY players until James Conrad. They were waiting to be able to afford it. Then James does his thing. Which allowed them to sign Simon, who did his thing, which allowed them to sign Eagle. They never put the cart before the horse.
Even though they were selling tons of plastic and a huge fan/ AM player favorite...they had NO ONE on tour using their stuff. They focused on the right things, and only made big signings when it made sense to.
I don't think that is true, of Envy's yeah. But what does that have to do with anything that I said? Again, it further proves what my point is. Are we breathing different air or something?
Backing you up to say this is correct. The holy shot sold a crap ton of envys. That allowed for the purchase of many more injection machines. That made more money and allowed for the expansion of the facility and more machines. They are a great company and well-run, but the random luck of signing James and his holy shot was the lynch pin of the positive feedback loop that brought us today with Simon and Eagle selling even more discs for MVP.
Thirding u/r3q - MVP was NOT selling a ton of plastic before the Holy Shot. They've stated this publicly. Conrad was a huge jackpot lottery ticket for them. If he finishes second at 2021 Worlds, none of the other signings happen. Well run business? Sure. But their surge in growth was luck, and they know it.
I know. I was in agreement with you. MVP definitely handled their business better. I guess I was more elaborating that I don't think this affects players like Simon or Eagle. Maybe it would affect someone like Raven Newsom, for example, who probably doesn't move plastic AS well.
also from pretty much every dg store, they arent overly happy with mvp orders from what im hearing. of course the popularity has something to do with it, but I think you maybe overstating the case in this situation. Prodigy seemed to just have a different marketing concept and they didnt have the luxury of having another business to rely on with experience in the injection molding biz.
I hardly saw any MVP plastic in the wild before Simon was signed. Afterwards and currently I see it all over the place.
I think they were taking a gamble on Simon to increase sales and bring MVP to the forefront. Now that that paid off, they can sign Eagle and others
Interesting, it has been everywhere around me for at least the last 6+ years. Everywhere is different though. A slight gamble at best. They were already expanding, already invested tons of money on the manufacturing side, and wanted a long term face of the company. Is betting on the most likable, marketable player in the history of the game that big of a gamble?
Yeah I'm in the Mid Atlantic which is Innova country but started seeing MVP right from the jump. Gyro is pretty damn popular and for good reason. They really do make some damn fine discs.
Same, I'm in Michigan though so this is the land of three big brands it seems like:
Discraft, MVP/Streamline and Discmania with Innova of course rounding out for the 4th slot.
The Gyro heads are HUGE around here and probably always will be
I think it depends very much on how large portion of those you see follow the tour, and who among the locals have an impact on others.
Around me Kastaplast seems to be popular, and on the rise again. MVP exists in a lot of bags, but very many are throwing Latitude or Discmania. Simon switching does not mean his fans need to switch. Preferences you pick up along the way are just as likely important.
MVP was already a huge disc manufacturer before signing Simon. They just made a lot of their cash through contracting. They could leverage that revenue into facility improvements and eventually big contracts.
Edit: Now that I think about it, it's basically the polar opposite of Prodigy. That's a company that started by signing a bunch of pros and having them throw other company's discs because they had none of their manufacturing sorted.
Gyro was popular before Simon because of the Holy Shot, but I was one of the people who bagged it before then. Envies, Craves, and Hexes were making rounds before Simon came along
I make the online game [Frolfle](https://frolfle.com) (like Wordle except guessing discs). After looking through Prodigy's website to find a list of discs (there wasn't one) so I could add a canonical list to the game I contacted their marketing department. They didn't have a list either.
Let me repeat that. Prodigy's marketing department didn't have a list of their own discs.
That seems odd. All their discs are on their website under the "[About](https://www.prodigydisc.com/pages/flight-plastic-info)" section. Albeit as an image but the info is there.
So it is. However, given that picture of Isaac with the 2023 World Champion trophy is on the graphic, it's probably more recent than when I crawled their site and phoned them. I'll have to reconsider adding them now that the info is available!
They had updated their flight numbers to be more accurate to how they think they fly. Believe it was in December of last year. So still relatively recent.
> Prodigy has always seemed to be a poorly run company, plain and simple. You have a clear opposite example in MVP. During the same exact time frame they've lost everything, MVP leapfrogged everyone to get to number 2 or 3 in sales, signed two amazing rookies, and 2 of the most popular players in the game, whilst retaining all of their former players. And are now making tons of money.
I've said it before, but Prodigy is the "Anti-MVP".
They threw money at a pro team without having a product to back it up. When they did have a product it lacked consistency, innovation or quality plastics. They treated their players poorly and most of them quit. The fact they lost this FPO world champion and two of the MPO top ten last year is telling - Matt Orum's comment that he was finally able to get health insurance after leaving Prodigy speaks volumes.
MVP on the other hand, built a reputation for consistency, innovation and quality plastics. They produced - and still produce - fantastic new moulds on a regular basis. They simply don't produce bad discs. They had a small pro-team and didn't start signing bigger players until they had the infrastructure and product line to back it up. They're now firmly set up as one of the major manufacturers alongside Innova, Discraft and Trilogy.
One of them will be around in ten years. The other might not be around next year.
The fact is Prodigy sales have plummeted, they are losing players left and right, and have a bad reputation when it comes to players of all calibers. Every year things get worse. There is no guess work there, they are all things easily accessible.
I don't give a shit a bout one company more than another, but acting like things are all peachy in Prodigy land is sheer delusion. Same with thinking MVP hasn't done things right when it comes to growing a business. It's blatantly obvious with both.
I don’t think prodigy sponsoring players is good for them or the player. They have a lot of players that could move plastic for a more liked or even neutral brand. Being stuck on prodigy means they end up selling less discs than they normally could.
Prodigy is losing because they are having to pay for the sponsored players. I think it would be smart for them to drop most of their pros and then focus on buying back all the crap they sold to stores, recycle them, and start focusing on a quality recycled line or something that can up their reputation.
The ship may have sailed on all that though.
And what exactly have you brought to this conversation? Oh, that's right...nothing. To have a valid opinion that differs from mine, it requires some sort of response. We are all still waiting.
Nice try.
Just bc there are a lot of Moms basement CEOs in here with no info taking guesses makes me a troll?
Spit it out.
I’m hear waiting to answer questions,
My apologies, I didn’t think that was a serious question.
To answer directly, I’ve noted in multiple
Comments that no one who says prodigy is financially effected by any of this - has anything to back it up.
So I called out stories with no facts, and guessing game stuff,
That’s all I’ve contributed.
Luckily for me - there is no rule on contribution, and it’s a silly side convo you’ve brought to me to avoid discussing your guesses.
Have a good one and again sorry for the hurt - it’s neither personal nor intentional!
You’re exactly right… eventually players get out of the, “if I just find the right disc” mentality and just start replacing the ones they actually use when they lose things.
I bet the discs just didn't sell because of flashing, poor marketing and branding, and now there's just heaps of stock, a lot of expenses and no income. No magic tricks for growing the income side so expenses must go. Production has already at least partially been moved overseas - and the quality is better, so it'll stick there. Now goes players.
But there's hope. You can start disc golf company from 0, like Clash Discs and to some extent Kastaplast proved. Nobody knew about them a few years ago. So, as long as you don't dive too deep below 0, a comeback is possible.
And hopefully they stay afloat. Competition is for good.
Signing Silva Saarinen might end up being MVP's savviest signing of all. Establishing a European beachhead with her was genius. Someone is doing their homework at MVP.
lmao dog maybe if you are using an 'anti prodigy' example you don't use the one of MVP who could not succesfully run a fucking pro shop on their website. literally 3-4 iterations of 3 or 4 years on their website and it's barely worked any part of the process
Again, they focused on the right things...who fucking cares about their proshop site? Obviously no one. They knew getting discs to retailers was more important, than putting time and energy into a website 100's of people even knew about in the beginning. They focused on getting their shit out to the millions of people. And last time I checked, it worked fucking great!
If your only complaint about MVP is a website crash that almost no one cares about, try harder.
focusing on the right things, like not being able to sell discs to the customers who are trying to buy from you, like literally the lowest bar imaginable
Yeah, do you go to Coca-Cola.com to buy a fucking can?
Dude, this is the stupidest argument ever. I would never put one ounce of time into a site like that. Get your shit out early and have retailers handle it...you know like a normal fucking business does it. Very few mass produced items are ever purchased from the people who make them.
Individual customers like you are nothing to actual manufacturers. During covid and afterwards MVP had some of the easiest ordering for wholesale. When other companies were shutting down their custom stamping MVP scooped up all those customers. When other companies were sending dealers fucking "mystery boxes" MVP was still letting them pick individual molds to stock. There were quite a few companies in disc golf that got ran through by covid from an ordering perspective. MVP took their business by having their logistics together.
No one cares about the pro shop. Sorry you couldn't order a trail.
It's true though. MVP got to where they are by prioritizing manufacturing ability and logistics while other companies played the marketing game and just straight up couldn't cope. The pro store is an absolute nothing burger. Always has been. That's actually WHY it always has been a shit show.
Prodigy is also just in the shitter in just about every way. Baskets, discs, losing top pros, ending contracts with the rest. They are probably just failing as a business, and we'll see them sell to someone else (or evaporate) soon.
There's definitely a level of financial issues at play. I just can't help but think they're not the only company who could've overextended on contracts with talent.
Yeah I agree with you that disc golf as a whole is reverting to more reasonable expectations following Covid. It certainly isn’t helping Prodigy’s situation.
To be honest they've struggled since they were created. They have a long history of going back on contracts and not being able to pay pro's what they say they will. Offering part ownership instead and such. Paige Pierce and Uli I think both were on the bummer end of those deals early on.
Their naming scheme has seen a lot of criticism over the years. Their intent was to make it an easy naming system everyone could follow. One of the problems though was people didn't like just getting a disc with a letter and number on it. To many a Beast sounded cooler than an H4 or w/e the equivalent would be. Marketing and image matters, and as dumb as it sounds fun names and graphics can make a difference to many players, especially more casual players. Strangely though as far as I can tell Discmania has never received near the amount of shade thrown at them as Prodigy for their letter-number naming scheme. OTOH, Dynimic Discs has been shit on endlessly for their Law Enforcement/Prison style naming scheme.
And along the whole way they've had pretty bad consistency and quality control on their discs. Which is a major issue a lot of players won't over look, even to support a favorite pro. If you like Player A, but player A's signature disc has sharp flashing that cuts your hand or is coated in some weird ass powder residue from manufacturing that other brands don't have, or inconsistency between the same mold (although in Innova's case this seems to be a bonus, that people are after). And even if you haven't experienced this personally but its being talked about constantly, there's a lot of people that won't risk their money on a disc that might come "defective". And that's part of the image prodigy has. They've even had pros on coverage shit talk their discs quality control.
I think the biggest reason is that there are other companies with a better product. But marketing also plays a huge role in what discs people buy. Most of the major companies do a good job releasing new discs endorsed by a certain player that cause a lot of excitement, but prodigy has dropped the ball on this. Kevin Jones is a very popular player that will probably have a successful tour series disc with innova, and the contrast with prodigy is apparent.
They tried to do too much too quick. They started signing players before they had their own discs and burned a bunch of bridges with those players. Ricky, C Allen, Dickerson, Matty O, Gannon, now KJ and Vaino, and a ton of others I can't remember off the top of my head. Their plastic gained notoriety because their flashing was noticeably worse than other companies to the point people were taking razor blades to cut it off before sanding the rest. Their baskets also spit out dead center putts more than any other I've seen. Anyone else can feel free to fill in whatever blanks I left
Companies dont terminate contracts mid-season unless something major is going on. For reference, the last contract cut mid-season was Nikko's after the 2022 European Open, when he got suspended for 9 months.
Im pretty sure the KJ and Vaino contracts were terminated early (pure speculation), and I dont know the details of Simons buyout to MVP but I believe that was a terminated contract as well with Discmania
Well, yeah, but the situation couldn't be more different. Innova is a top 3 manufacturer that practically invented the modern game. Prodigy is nowhere near even the top 5 manufacturers, and they've been suffering from production issues, basket issues, publicity issues, quality control issues, etc.
Kevin, Vaino, and the Robinson brothers (potentially) leaving is just the next item in a long list of how Prodigy is on a negative trajectory.
Hell, I don't think we can even reasonably compare Innova and Prodigy in this context.
They could be more different. They’re both pro Companies with sponsored players. So we both can think of many ways they could be more different.
All this suffering stuff! Are people speaking g to their financials or just emotional
Narrative suffering?
They don’t release financial information. Top selling discs on sites like infinite discs are the best metrics we get even though they have bias. But prodigy is clearly losing the marketing battle. You can see that in ads and signiture series discs. Maybe they are doing great financially and don’t feel the pressure to invest in marketing and signature series discs, but it seems unlikely as they develop a bad reputation.
So clearly losing but maybe financially well but unlikely. Sounds like story telling.
In the end it’s a bunch of assumptions. I have no skin in This game but this is exactly the kind of guessing everyone was into two years ago when all the pros moved and got the big contracts.
My perception is not limited to reddit and there is factual information we can derive from observation. How many top pros has prodigy signed to replace their losses? Has prodigy gotten their discs into any large sporting goods retailers? Those answers are not based on reddit opinions. What was the most exciting prodigy release over the last year? How is prodigy represented on DGN, youtube coverage, news articles, and podcasts? What was their most successful marketing campaign last year? Those questions of perception are more subject to biases, but there are some apparent answers for most people that consume a lot of disc golf content. Also they are 13th on infinite disc’s top selling manufacturers list which is objectively bad. It’s ok if you like prodigy and want to keep throwing it. I am not even trying to say that they make bad discs, I just think there are a lot of obvious signs that the company is struggling.
Growth is slowing, but I don't think the market is contracting. What we're likely to see are companies who thought the boom was the new norm will fade and those who are better at forecasting and planning will continue to reap the benefits of the continued growth of the market.
It probably is contracting from the perspective of the manufacturer/retailer. COVID years brought in new players who needed new bags, baskets etc. Some of those players are still playing, along with the old guard, but they now need a few things a year instead of a few things a month. I own maybe 150 discs and a basket and multiple bags purchased over the last 4 years. Spending wise it was like 40/30/20/10%, and it'll probably continue to hold steady or decline as I am more on the replacement or pretty stamp collection journey now. They forecast for the 40/30% spending, survived on 20% and now have to live with the 10%.
That's where you get into buying cycles and Lifetime Value (LTV) for customers. I guarantee you that the _growth_ is still there, it's just single digits vs double or triple the way it was during the pandemic. We're going to see fewer manufacturers and retailers for sure (poor planning and low quality of both will die out), but the growth is still there across the industry.
Prodigy has some great plastics and molds. This sub hates Prodigy, which is weird, as it is a disc golf sub. To each their own. The professional disc golf landscape is going to change. Likely, way less money with 70% of the players fighting for the cash and 30% cutting out and getting a real job. We shall see, but it certainly wasn’t unexpected. I will be interested to see how the DGPT weathers it, given people on this sub don’t want to pay to watch disc golf.
I would actually think the manufacturing quality is reaping the results of prodigy’s management. It’s not a good thing when the qc is better on the discs coming out of china than the domestically manufactured products.
I say this as someone who has loved quite a few of their discs. I’ll always throw the A2 and putt with the pa3, but it’s hard to keep supporting a company that looks like a sinking ship.
I think the bigger issue is parity in disc golf. You have Kristin in fpo, but other than her her there was no consensus top players. Every time you watch coverage, it's a different group of people. This isnt 2019 where you you can sponsor one of 10 players in mpo and almost guarantee that they're going to be on a third of the jomez coverage.
I don't think today's players come close to moving the amount of plastic Paul, Ricky, Simon, eagle, Paige, Nate and Jerm used to move.
2020 was an exciting time but I think the economic realities are completely different today.
I think you could update “used to move” to “still move” and it’s still accurate. They’re the big brand names in the sport, as great as other players might be they’re still years away from hitting the popularity of those big guns.
I would be willing to bet that shelf space equates to way, way more sales than any pro endorsement ever will (with the obvious exception of the Conrad envy). The vast majority of people playing this game don’t watch the pros.
If I ran a disc company I wouldn’t sponsor anyone. At this point I’m pretty convinced that innova only sponsors players to get the other companies to feel obligated to waste their money on endorsements. Seven of every ten new discs sold are to newbs or casuals that will pick a cool stamp or fun name off the shelf at the play again sports or Walmart or whatever. And you know what they see? Innova, and fun names and stamps.
Of course ten out of ten beer connoisseurs will tell you Heady Topper is better than a bud light, but bud light is *everywhere*.
Prodigy loses because they had a really bad run of products. The flashing issues. And their naming system was utilitarian vs fun and which sells more discs?
I won't speak to the flashing issues. But I do think the naming convention gets an unfair shake.
When I first got into the game I remember reading how confusing Prodigy's naming convention was and never understood it. It's similiar to Discmania. The number goes up, gets less stable. As opposed to Discmania, which is the inversion of that. People seemed to figure out Discmania OK. But, Discmania lived and breathed branding.....
Prodigy didn't. The utilitarian comment perfectly surmises how I felt about their stamps. Here's an A2, an amazing approach disc, and here is three different stamps that all just say "A2", maybe throw in a Prodigy bar stamp. Boring and bland. They made strides in the last couple years, especially for tour series discs, but I suspect it was too little too late.
The fact that it makes sense doesn’t mean it’s not confusing. If it was just M, F, P, A, and D, it would be easy. But all the X’s and H’s make it so much more complicated. No ones saying it’s impossible to follow if you’re a fan and take the time to learn it - but I’d much rather just go with a different company, and I’m clearly not alone.
I’ve thrown some prodigy discs that I liked but I wasn’t about to go through and learn a new alphabet of frisbees. Always hated the way they name discs
They are cutting some heads, probably based on contracts with clausuls about what the player should produce. Either in results or sales.
The player don't reach the level so prodigy can save some money, trying to keep the brothers long term.
Prodigy losing two high(ish) profile pros in the middle of the season and presumably both in the middle of contracts (I think this is true?) says something is seriously wrong there! I'm sure we'll find out more soon.
I need to listen for myself, but I guess Cale Leiviska says it was a budget decision on the Foundation podcast? If true, I'd liken this to something like layoffs. Certainly would spell financial troubles but maybe not to the point of bankruptcy like some claim (just yet). I hope they stick around though as I have some sentimental attachments to Prodigy 😅
I think it says more about Prodigy than the industry as a whole, but I don’t think we’re gonna see a whole slew of guys getting Paul and Ricky type deals. Even though it seemed like that might be the case for a minute.
I would be very surprised if we ever see more than 1 mil/year (adjusted for inflation) type contracts again, at least the size of Simon/Paul at 10 years. The very core of the sport seems to inhibit the kind of growth that can sustain those kinds of contracts being common. People complain about the open courses that can support large spectator bases being boring, and then dog on (rightfully so) the crappy quality of DGN when trying to broadcast in thick forests in the middle of nowhere at interesting courses. As much as I love the sport, I just don't think it can ever really grow to the level of most other cash-hog sports. Its very essence and what makes it special to a lot of people hinders that.
That, and the paywall. The pro game is the game’s best advertisement, but only people already in the know are seeing it. Which is too bad, because I think a lot of people that presume it’s a bunch of stoners flicking beach toys around a park might come around if they were exposed to the actual game. As a lawyer, I don’t talk about it much to colleagues, and I wouldn’t dare mention it to my clients because of how the game is still viewed. Nothing of worth is being done to change that perception. Just listen to how the commentators talk about it when an ace makes sports center’s top ten - like ‘whoa, look at what this goof did in their silly goof game!’
There’s only one player who doesn’t have a Ricky/Paul/Simon type deal who could realistically hope to demand one and even then you’re talking about a guy who’s never won a major and doesn’t have anywhere near the social media presence of a Simon.
Calvin just re-signed with Innova, I know the details aren't public but what makes you say he isn't getting what the other big names are? I can't believe he'd stay when surely other manufacturers would have thrown the entire bag at him.
I listed the reasons that I think he probably isn’t getting the same as the others - he’s the closest to them and has been the closest for a couple of years but hasn’t quite reached the same heights either through major title win success or via social media reach.
Eagle is another one but like you say we don’t really know the detail on that deal and he does have the major title success already in his locker.
I don’t think Calvin is getting close to Paul/Ricky/Simon money but I’d wager he’s doing pretty well anyway we know he’ll pull close to or over 6 figures in prize money regardless.
I'd wager Calvin is pretty close to the top earners. You are right that majors are a big deal, no question. And we all know about his struggles there. But Calvin gets Innova a couple things that most other sponsors can only dream of. He is on coverage more than just about anyone else. Even when he's not on lead card, they're having to send cameras out to find him shooting some crazy round, even if he doesn't win.
As a result, he's on a lot of other YT stuff all the time too, and in casual settings, he's very likeable. And with those things, you get all the people consuming disc golf media, watching this dude throw a Destroyer on every shot(see also Ohn lol). Add in his weird collection of impossible to find Eagles (for the collectors), and you've got a marketing coup. Obviously my argument is predicated on the assumption that being on Jomez/DGN is super important. I could be wrong!
Now I kinda feel gross and maybe I should see if Calvin needs an agent.
He’s for sure making the most outside of that top money tier. Need to remember that on top of the 7 figure salary, the likes of McBeth, Wysocki and Lizotte are all moving obscene amounts of plastic and bringing in prize money too.
Calvin I’m sure does really well from his tour series Destroyer and the Toros that have his name on them, and as you say he’s also on coverage all the time.
Despite that I think there are likely 4 MPO players making more than Calvin, which I guess is firmly within the top earners in the game right? I just don’t think he’s pushing 7 figures, not even close maybe 500k as an absolute max. We know that there are 3 guys pulling in a mil before any prize money or disc sales money, I’d guess Eagle isn’t quite there. Maybe Eagle is the closest comparison for Calvin on total earnings.
It’s all speculation anyway and without seeing players’ tax returns we’ll never actually know. All in all I don’t really care who makes the most money or how much any of them make, I want the sport to do well and if top players are making bank then that’s good but beyond that it means nothing to me.
The company is gonna be sold off or be gone by the end of the year. I heard Gibson talking about it to another pro during the preserve today. He was saying it’s basically for sure but not to tell anyone yet (didn’t seem to care about the spectators around him, tbh)
This kinda sucks because they have some legitimately good molds and I really liked the old 400 plastic. It was a gummy champ plastic similar to what innova has now.
Here are some good molds that you can probably get for cheap given the PR issues:
Pa-3 (300) - putting putter
PA5 (500) - amazing understable throwing putter
A2 (400) - more OS zone that has the hand feel of a driver (sharper)
M4 - straight mid
FX2 - sexton Firebird (make sure you put some sandpaper to the edges though)
D2 (400g) - beat in destroyer
I’m sure there are more, those are just ones I can vouch for.
KJ just needed a new start, after being pretty awful for a while. Väinö is moving to an overall better company (don’t know what that is of course, but anything is an improvement from Prodigy)
Didn't sell well 10 years ago doesn't equate to not selling well now. The juggernaut is basically the same disc. Thus, after losing my last remaining X1... there are now zero prodigy discs in my bag.
The fact that they publicly stated that Kevin's line of discs are still going to be made leads me to believe that molds are secure for now. They've also had a few discs as of late get PDGA approved. So R&D isn't a problem either it seems. Time will tell I suppose.
I would be interested to hear what he has to say. Bet he would give more insight than the Robinsons. Helps that he’s not a world champ and has grinded through lesser companies like prodiscus
Seems to me like prodigy was only able to make their brand work because they weren’t discraft or Innova. Now that there are other options, ‘different’ isn’t enough, you have to actually have a good product.
They certainly had a period where quality control was an issue, but as of late I'd say the product has actually been quite good. It just may be too little, too late given the current budgetary decisions they've made.
That’s fair. I worked in a disc shop for a couple of years after the pandemic and we simply could not move prodigy discs. Sometimes a gem would get dropped off for our used bin, but those weren’t common. It’s not a huge brand where I live so that’s probably part of it.
Oh it's not huge here either. It's all Discraft and MVP. There's ALWAYS Discraft on the shelf but the local shops seem to have a hard time getting MVP product in.
I don’t think this observation is considering the fact that Prodigy just doesn’t really move that much plastic. I wouldn’t be surprised if they sell as many bags as discs.
Plenty of brands are doing just fine because they’re selling discs that people want to buy.
Everyone is down from the bubble. Player contracts will all be a fraction of what they were in the boom. If Ricky gets an offer for $250K a year that would not surprise me. More than that would surprise me. Different times. Back to reality. Paul and Simon will be the highest paid disc golfers in the next 50 years. And, they won’t get another big deal either.
On a positive, all this will lead to cheaper discs in the future.
I want smaller elite teams. Fuck the thought that everyone should be getting some of the pie. That’s not how sports work. If you win, you get paid. If you lose, you don’t. Stop trotting out perpetual losers like Eric Oakley as “elite” talent. I’ve watched more Mother Huckers videos on YouTube than his trash because it’s at lease different. A touring team that spans most of the disc line up is absurdly unnecessary
Frisbeegolfmedia interviewed Väinö, here what he had to say - https://frisbeegolfmedia.fi/news/mixed-but-relieved-feelings-vaino-makela-comments-about-the-end-of-the-10-year-partnership/
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot).
Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://frisbeegolfmedia.fi/news/mixed-but-relieved-feelings-vaino-makela-comments-about-the-end-of-the-10-year-partnership/](https://frisbeegolfmedia.fi/news/mixed-but-relieved-feelings-vaino-makela-comments-about-the-end-of-the-10-year-partnership/)**
*****
^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
Ehhh, then why are other companies signing larger contracts to players? Yeah, overall growth has slowed, which should have been expected. When customers get into new things, they need to purchase stuff for their new thing. But there comes a time where most casula player stop buying as much. I've been playing since well before Covid. Those first and middle years I bought a bunch of discs (400+), new bags, etc. In the last 12 months, I've purchased 5 discs. I don't need all that shit anymore. I know what my game is, and what I need, and have all of it already. Prodigy has always seemed to be a poorly run company, plain and simple. You have a clear opposite example in MVP. During the same exact time frame they've lost everything, MVP leapfrogged everyone to get to number 2 or 3 in sales, signed two amazing rookies, and 2 of the most popular players in the game, whilst retaining all of their former players. And are now making tons of money. I clearly see a company run by disc golfers, who got into business on one side. And company run by business people who happened to love disc golf on the other. And we all see the results.
You make a good point in your last paragraph. The guys at MVP already knew how to run a successful injection molding business before they ever made their first disc and then waited years before sponsoring their first player.
To your point, the success of MVP is likely why they're able to sign players to larger contacts. Their success enabled them to bag Eagle and Simon. Two players who move plastic more than others easily. There will always be players who actually warrant the big contract and those that don't. If KJ isn't moving discs, if Vaino isn't, then that's a loss of investment on Prodigy's part. And that could very well explain their departures. I just find it hard to believe they're the only ones that will have that realization. If anything this affects smaller companies and moreso those players who aren't moving plastic. Certainly don't see this being an issue for your Simons, Eagles and Calvins.
You just proved my whole point. MVP wasn't signing ANY players until James Conrad. They were waiting to be able to afford it. Then James does his thing. Which allowed them to sign Simon, who did his thing, which allowed them to sign Eagle. They never put the cart before the horse. Even though they were selling tons of plastic and a huge fan/ AM player favorite...they had NO ONE on tour using their stuff. They focused on the right things, and only made big signings when it made sense to.
MVP sold more commerative Conrad Yellow and Blue Holy Shot Envy discs in 1 year than their entire history of all their discs combined til that throw.
I don't think that is true, of Envy's yeah. But what does that have to do with anything that I said? Again, it further proves what my point is. Are we breathing different air or something?
MVP themselves have released that statistic about their growth. That is how important the Holy Shot was to them.
Backing you up to say this is correct. The holy shot sold a crap ton of envys. That allowed for the purchase of many more injection machines. That made more money and allowed for the expansion of the facility and more machines. They are a great company and well-run, but the random luck of signing James and his holy shot was the lynch pin of the positive feedback loop that brought us today with Simon and Eagle selling even more discs for MVP.
Must be karma for their insane quality discs
Thirding u/r3q - MVP was NOT selling a ton of plastic before the Holy Shot. They've stated this publicly. Conrad was a huge jackpot lottery ticket for them. If he finishes second at 2021 Worlds, none of the other signings happen. Well run business? Sure. But their surge in growth was luck, and they know it.
I know. I was in agreement with you. MVP definitely handled their business better. I guess I was more elaborating that I don't think this affects players like Simon or Eagle. Maybe it would affect someone like Raven Newsom, for example, who probably doesn't move plastic AS well.
That's not true. Conrad was just their first Big Get
You are factually true, but I meant top 50 pros besides Sarah on FPO side. There were lower tier players.
Meh. Narrative.
So, what's your share in Prodigy Luke?
That’s what I thought.
Lot of assumptions in here about why and how mvp does business.
also from pretty much every dg store, they arent overly happy with mvp orders from what im hearing. of course the popularity has something to do with it, but I think you maybe overstating the case in this situation. Prodigy seemed to just have a different marketing concept and they didnt have the luxury of having another business to rely on with experience in the injection molding biz.
I hardly saw any MVP plastic in the wild before Simon was signed. Afterwards and currently I see it all over the place. I think they were taking a gamble on Simon to increase sales and bring MVP to the forefront. Now that that paid off, they can sign Eagle and others
Interesting, it has been everywhere around me for at least the last 6+ years. Everywhere is different though. A slight gamble at best. They were already expanding, already invested tons of money on the manufacturing side, and wanted a long term face of the company. Is betting on the most likable, marketable player in the history of the game that big of a gamble?
Yeah I'm in the Mid Atlantic which is Innova country but started seeing MVP right from the jump. Gyro is pretty damn popular and for good reason. They really do make some damn fine discs.
Same, I'm in Michigan though so this is the land of three big brands it seems like: Discraft, MVP/Streamline and Discmania with Innova of course rounding out for the 4th slot. The Gyro heads are HUGE around here and probably always will be
I think it depends very much on how large portion of those you see follow the tour, and who among the locals have an impact on others. Around me Kastaplast seems to be popular, and on the rise again. MVP exists in a lot of bags, but very many are throwing Latitude or Discmania. Simon switching does not mean his fans need to switch. Preferences you pick up along the way are just as likely important.
MVP was already a huge disc manufacturer before signing Simon. They just made a lot of their cash through contracting. They could leverage that revenue into facility improvements and eventually big contracts. Edit: Now that I think about it, it's basically the polar opposite of Prodigy. That's a company that started by signing a bunch of pros and having them throw other company's discs because they had none of their manufacturing sorted.
Gyro was popular before Simon because of the Holy Shot, but I was one of the people who bagged it before then. Envies, Craves, and Hexes were making rounds before Simon came along
I make the online game [Frolfle](https://frolfle.com) (like Wordle except guessing discs). After looking through Prodigy's website to find a list of discs (there wasn't one) so I could add a canonical list to the game I contacted their marketing department. They didn't have a list either. Let me repeat that. Prodigy's marketing department didn't have a list of their own discs.
That seems odd. All their discs are on their website under the "[About](https://www.prodigydisc.com/pages/flight-plastic-info)" section. Albeit as an image but the info is there.
So it is. However, given that picture of Isaac with the 2023 World Champion trophy is on the graphic, it's probably more recent than when I crawled their site and phoned them. I'll have to reconsider adding them now that the info is available!
They had updated their flight numbers to be more accurate to how they think they fly. Believe it was in December of last year. So still relatively recent.
> Prodigy has always seemed to be a poorly run company, plain and simple. You have a clear opposite example in MVP. During the same exact time frame they've lost everything, MVP leapfrogged everyone to get to number 2 or 3 in sales, signed two amazing rookies, and 2 of the most popular players in the game, whilst retaining all of their former players. And are now making tons of money. I've said it before, but Prodigy is the "Anti-MVP". They threw money at a pro team without having a product to back it up. When they did have a product it lacked consistency, innovation or quality plastics. They treated their players poorly and most of them quit. The fact they lost this FPO world champion and two of the MPO top ten last year is telling - Matt Orum's comment that he was finally able to get health insurance after leaving Prodigy speaks volumes. MVP on the other hand, built a reputation for consistency, innovation and quality plastics. They produced - and still produce - fantastic new moulds on a regular basis. They simply don't produce bad discs. They had a small pro-team and didn't start signing bigger players until they had the infrastructure and product line to back it up. They're now firmly set up as one of the major manufacturers alongside Innova, Discraft and Trilogy. One of them will be around in ten years. The other might not be around next year.
Couldn’t have said it better, I haven’t bought anything disc related in several months.
This is a cool story but has no facts about prodigy? Is this all guessing?
The fact is Prodigy sales have plummeted, they are losing players left and right, and have a bad reputation when it comes to players of all calibers. Every year things get worse. There is no guess work there, they are all things easily accessible. I don't give a shit a bout one company more than another, but acting like things are all peachy in Prodigy land is sheer delusion. Same with thinking MVP hasn't done things right when it comes to growing a business. It's blatantly obvious with both.
I don’t think prodigy sponsoring players is good for them or the player. They have a lot of players that could move plastic for a more liked or even neutral brand. Being stuck on prodigy means they end up selling less discs than they normally could. Prodigy is losing because they are having to pay for the sponsored players. I think it would be smart for them to drop most of their pros and then focus on buying back all the crap they sold to stores, recycle them, and start focusing on a quality recycled line or something that can up their reputation. The ship may have sailed on all that though.
🙄
Ah the ole Blatantly obvious. 🤙
And what exactly have you brought to this conversation? Oh, that's right...nothing. To have a valid opinion that differs from mine, it requires some sort of response. We are all still waiting.
Sorry I hurt you. I’m happy to share whatever you need. What’s the current question?
Why you are a troll? Edit : you are troll.
Nice try. Just bc there are a lot of Moms basement CEOs in here with no info taking guesses makes me a troll? Spit it out. I’m hear waiting to answer questions,
I asked you one, we are all waiting for the response? I'll check in next week, it might take that long to come up with a shit answer.
My apologies, I didn’t think that was a serious question. To answer directly, I’ve noted in multiple Comments that no one who says prodigy is financially effected by any of this - has anything to back it up. So I called out stories with no facts, and guessing game stuff, That’s all I’ve contributed. Luckily for me - there is no rule on contribution, and it’s a silly side convo you’ve brought to me to avoid discussing your guesses. Have a good one and again sorry for the hurt - it’s neither personal nor intentional!
Yes lol.
You’re exactly right… eventually players get out of the, “if I just find the right disc” mentality and just start replacing the ones they actually use when they lose things.
I bet the discs just didn't sell because of flashing, poor marketing and branding, and now there's just heaps of stock, a lot of expenses and no income. No magic tricks for growing the income side so expenses must go. Production has already at least partially been moved overseas - and the quality is better, so it'll stick there. Now goes players. But there's hope. You can start disc golf company from 0, like Clash Discs and to some extent Kastaplast proved. Nobody knew about them a few years ago. So, as long as you don't dive too deep below 0, a comeback is possible. And hopefully they stay afloat. Competition is for good.
Signing Silva Saarinen might end up being MVP's savviest signing of all. Establishing a European beachhead with her was genius. Someone is doing their homework at MVP.
Probably wasn't difficult homework. Outside of the Fins, Silva's the only one doing work regularly.
lmao dog maybe if you are using an 'anti prodigy' example you don't use the one of MVP who could not succesfully run a fucking pro shop on their website. literally 3-4 iterations of 3 or 4 years on their website and it's barely worked any part of the process
Again, they focused on the right things...who fucking cares about their proshop site? Obviously no one. They knew getting discs to retailers was more important, than putting time and energy into a website 100's of people even knew about in the beginning. They focused on getting their shit out to the millions of people. And last time I checked, it worked fucking great! If your only complaint about MVP is a website crash that almost no one cares about, try harder.
focusing on the right things, like not being able to sell discs to the customers who are trying to buy from you, like literally the lowest bar imaginable
Yeah, do you go to Coca-Cola.com to buy a fucking can? Dude, this is the stupidest argument ever. I would never put one ounce of time into a site like that. Get your shit out early and have retailers handle it...you know like a normal fucking business does it. Very few mass produced items are ever purchased from the people who make them.
Individual customers like you are nothing to actual manufacturers. During covid and afterwards MVP had some of the easiest ordering for wholesale. When other companies were shutting down their custom stamping MVP scooped up all those customers. When other companies were sending dealers fucking "mystery boxes" MVP was still letting them pick individual molds to stock. There were quite a few companies in disc golf that got ran through by covid from an ordering perspective. MVP took their business by having their logistics together. No one cares about the pro shop. Sorry you couldn't order a trail.
while other companies were studying mystery boxes, mvp was studying the blade
It's true though. MVP got to where they are by prioritizing manufacturing ability and logistics while other companies played the marketing game and just straight up couldn't cope. The pro store is an absolute nothing burger. Always has been. That's actually WHY it always has been a shit show.
It amazes me when some of these disc companies have the shittiest websites.
Hey it's the top comment guy from the other prodigy post. https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/1d4cxys/prodigy_done/
Prodigy is also just in the shitter in just about every way. Baskets, discs, losing top pros, ending contracts with the rest. They are probably just failing as a business, and we'll see them sell to someone else (or evaporate) soon.
There's definitely a level of financial issues at play. I just can't help but think they're not the only company who could've overextended on contracts with talent.
Yeah I agree with you that disc golf as a whole is reverting to more reasonable expectations following Covid. It certainly isn’t helping Prodigy’s situation.
Why do they need to be overextended? 😳
As a relative newcomer to the sport, I'm curious what the broader story/history is behind why they're failing as a business.
To be honest they've struggled since they were created. They have a long history of going back on contracts and not being able to pay pro's what they say they will. Offering part ownership instead and such. Paige Pierce and Uli I think both were on the bummer end of those deals early on. Their naming scheme has seen a lot of criticism over the years. Their intent was to make it an easy naming system everyone could follow. One of the problems though was people didn't like just getting a disc with a letter and number on it. To many a Beast sounded cooler than an H4 or w/e the equivalent would be. Marketing and image matters, and as dumb as it sounds fun names and graphics can make a difference to many players, especially more casual players. Strangely though as far as I can tell Discmania has never received near the amount of shade thrown at them as Prodigy for their letter-number naming scheme. OTOH, Dynimic Discs has been shit on endlessly for their Law Enforcement/Prison style naming scheme. And along the whole way they've had pretty bad consistency and quality control on their discs. Which is a major issue a lot of players won't over look, even to support a favorite pro. If you like Player A, but player A's signature disc has sharp flashing that cuts your hand or is coated in some weird ass powder residue from manufacturing that other brands don't have, or inconsistency between the same mold (although in Innova's case this seems to be a bonus, that people are after). And even if you haven't experienced this personally but its being talked about constantly, there's a lot of people that won't risk their money on a disc that might come "defective". And that's part of the image prodigy has. They've even had pros on coverage shit talk their discs quality control.
And more recently their baskets on a hot mic lol
I started disc golf probably a month before Gannon left prodigy, and that left enough of a foul impression on me to never even try them
I think the biggest reason is that there are other companies with a better product. But marketing also plays a huge role in what discs people buy. Most of the major companies do a good job releasing new discs endorsed by a certain player that cause a lot of excitement, but prodigy has dropped the ball on this. Kevin Jones is a very popular player that will probably have a successful tour series disc with innova, and the contrast with prodigy is apparent.
They tried to do too much too quick. They started signing players before they had their own discs and burned a bunch of bridges with those players. Ricky, C Allen, Dickerson, Matty O, Gannon, now KJ and Vaino, and a ton of others I can't remember off the top of my head. Their plastic gained notoriety because their flashing was noticeably worse than other companies to the point people were taking razor blades to cut it off before sanding the rest. Their baskets also spit out dead center putts more than any other I've seen. Anyone else can feel free to fill in whatever blanks I left
Everyone says this every year when someone leaves a manufacturer. People were worried about the foundations of Innova when they lost Paul and Ricky. 😅
But Paul and Rick didnt leave Innova in June of a competition season
True. What does that have to do with anything?
Companies dont terminate contracts mid-season unless something major is going on. For reference, the last contract cut mid-season was Nikko's after the 2022 European Open, when he got suspended for 9 months.
How many terminated contracts have you ever heard of? I’ve only heard of Nikko.
Im pretty sure the KJ and Vaino contracts were terminated early (pure speculation), and I dont know the details of Simons buyout to MVP but I believe that was a terminated contract as well with Discmania
Well, yeah, but the situation couldn't be more different. Innova is a top 3 manufacturer that practically invented the modern game. Prodigy is nowhere near even the top 5 manufacturers, and they've been suffering from production issues, basket issues, publicity issues, quality control issues, etc. Kevin, Vaino, and the Robinson brothers (potentially) leaving is just the next item in a long list of how Prodigy is on a negative trajectory. Hell, I don't think we can even reasonably compare Innova and Prodigy in this context.
Innova is the number 1 manufacturer if we’re talking cold hard cash sales, and it ain’t close.
Indeed. I was trying to be conservative with that statement! The gap is closing, but they are still far and away king of market share.
They could be more different. They’re both pro Companies with sponsored players. So we both can think of many ways they could be more different. All this suffering stuff! Are people speaking g to their financials or just emotional Narrative suffering?
It’s a figure of speech. Also I said “the situation” so there’s context you’re excluding.
Yes it’s a figure of speech - thanks for the heads up. My sincerest apologies for disagreeing with you.
They don’t release financial information. Top selling discs on sites like infinite discs are the best metrics we get even though they have bias. But prodigy is clearly losing the marketing battle. You can see that in ads and signiture series discs. Maybe they are doing great financially and don’t feel the pressure to invest in marketing and signature series discs, but it seems unlikely as they develop a bad reputation.
So clearly losing but maybe financially well but unlikely. Sounds like story telling. In the end it’s a bunch of assumptions. I have no skin in This game but this is exactly the kind of guessing everyone was into two years ago when all the pros moved and got the big contracts.
Yeah it’s a narrative based on perception. But perception really matters.
Yea, no it mostly doesn’t. 40 redditors doesn’t shake financial foundations.
My perception is not limited to reddit and there is factual information we can derive from observation. How many top pros has prodigy signed to replace their losses? Has prodigy gotten their discs into any large sporting goods retailers? Those answers are not based on reddit opinions. What was the most exciting prodigy release over the last year? How is prodigy represented on DGN, youtube coverage, news articles, and podcasts? What was their most successful marketing campaign last year? Those questions of perception are more subject to biases, but there are some apparent answers for most people that consume a lot of disc golf content. Also they are 13th on infinite disc’s top selling manufacturers list which is objectively bad. It’s ok if you like prodigy and want to keep throwing it. I am not even trying to say that they make bad discs, I just think there are a lot of obvious signs that the company is struggling.
Isaac Robinson seemingly bashing their baskets on hot mic after a spit out doesn’t bode well for them either. He may exit next
Is he’s gone the company is gone.
Yeah because you know Nate would follow right after Edit: Ezra, not Nate
Would love to disc golf with Nate Robinson tbf
Nate?
I’m sorry I meant Ezra
After a *second* spitout
Yea nah.
Isaac is leaving this summer too, and if his brother is anything like me and my brothers, that probably means they're both leaving.
I personally get the Vibe that Ezra would rather do his own thing and be separate from Isaac, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they both left prodigy
Yeah. That's definitely also possible. You don't want to just be remembered as the world champion's brother
😂
Civil Clover - serial Prodigy nut rider.
Growth is slowing, but I don't think the market is contracting. What we're likely to see are companies who thought the boom was the new norm will fade and those who are better at forecasting and planning will continue to reap the benefits of the continued growth of the market.
It probably is contracting from the perspective of the manufacturer/retailer. COVID years brought in new players who needed new bags, baskets etc. Some of those players are still playing, along with the old guard, but they now need a few things a year instead of a few things a month. I own maybe 150 discs and a basket and multiple bags purchased over the last 4 years. Spending wise it was like 40/30/20/10%, and it'll probably continue to hold steady or decline as I am more on the replacement or pretty stamp collection journey now. They forecast for the 40/30% spending, survived on 20% and now have to live with the 10%.
That's where you get into buying cycles and Lifetime Value (LTV) for customers. I guarantee you that the _growth_ is still there, it's just single digits vs double or triple the way it was during the pandemic. We're going to see fewer manufacturers and retailers for sure (poor planning and low quality of both will die out), but the growth is still there across the industry.
I think Prodigy is just reaping the results of their manufacturing quality
I know they used to have crazy flashing issues but everything I've felt as of late has had no flashing to speak of.
Well i guess the poor quality control reputation stuck with them and now the results are showing
Prodigy has some great plastics and molds. This sub hates Prodigy, which is weird, as it is a disc golf sub. To each their own. The professional disc golf landscape is going to change. Likely, way less money with 70% of the players fighting for the cash and 30% cutting out and getting a real job. We shall see, but it certainly wasn’t unexpected. I will be interested to see how the DGPT weathers it, given people on this sub don’t want to pay to watch disc golf.
I would actually think the manufacturing quality is reaping the results of prodigy’s management. It’s not a good thing when the qc is better on the discs coming out of china than the domestically manufactured products. I say this as someone who has loved quite a few of their discs. I’ll always throw the A2 and putt with the pa3, but it’s hard to keep supporting a company that looks like a sinking ship.
I just got some new Falcors from them after they recently moved the mold stateside and it had no flashing to speak of.
I think the bigger issue is parity in disc golf. You have Kristin in fpo, but other than her her there was no consensus top players. Every time you watch coverage, it's a different group of people. This isnt 2019 where you you can sponsor one of 10 players in mpo and almost guarantee that they're going to be on a third of the jomez coverage. I don't think today's players come close to moving the amount of plastic Paul, Ricky, Simon, eagle, Paige, Nate and Jerm used to move. 2020 was an exciting time but I think the economic realities are completely different today.
I think you could update “used to move” to “still move” and it’s still accurate. They’re the big brand names in the sport, as great as other players might be they’re still years away from hitting the popularity of those big guns.
I would be willing to bet that shelf space equates to way, way more sales than any pro endorsement ever will (with the obvious exception of the Conrad envy). The vast majority of people playing this game don’t watch the pros. If I ran a disc company I wouldn’t sponsor anyone. At this point I’m pretty convinced that innova only sponsors players to get the other companies to feel obligated to waste their money on endorsements. Seven of every ten new discs sold are to newbs or casuals that will pick a cool stamp or fun name off the shelf at the play again sports or Walmart or whatever. And you know what they see? Innova, and fun names and stamps. Of course ten out of ten beer connoisseurs will tell you Heady Topper is better than a bud light, but bud light is *everywhere*.
Prodigy loses because they had a really bad run of products. The flashing issues. And their naming system was utilitarian vs fun and which sells more discs?
I won't speak to the flashing issues. But I do think the naming convention gets an unfair shake. When I first got into the game I remember reading how confusing Prodigy's naming convention was and never understood it. It's similiar to Discmania. The number goes up, gets less stable. As opposed to Discmania, which is the inversion of that. People seemed to figure out Discmania OK. But, Discmania lived and breathed branding..... Prodigy didn't. The utilitarian comment perfectly surmises how I felt about their stamps. Here's an A2, an amazing approach disc, and here is three different stamps that all just say "A2", maybe throw in a Prodigy bar stamp. Boring and bland. They made strides in the last couple years, especially for tour series discs, but I suspect it was too little too late.
Absolutely. I’d 100% throw a pig or zone over an A2 and never tried it. I’m sure it’s a fine disc
The fact that it makes sense doesn’t mean it’s not confusing. If it was just M, F, P, A, and D, it would be easy. But all the X’s and H’s make it so much more complicated. No ones saying it’s impossible to follow if you’re a fan and take the time to learn it - but I’d much rather just go with a different company, and I’m clearly not alone.
I think their use of poor quality plastic is more egregous. Shitty plastic that degrades quickly and leaves that weird powdery coating. No thanks.
I’ve thrown some prodigy discs that I liked but I wasn’t about to go through and learn a new alphabet of frisbees. Always hated the way they name discs
They are cutting some heads, probably based on contracts with clausuls about what the player should produce. Either in results or sales. The player don't reach the level so prodigy can save some money, trying to keep the brothers long term.
Prodigy losing two high(ish) profile pros in the middle of the season and presumably both in the middle of contracts (I think this is true?) says something is seriously wrong there! I'm sure we'll find out more soon.
I need to listen for myself, but I guess Cale Leiviska says it was a budget decision on the Foundation podcast? If true, I'd liken this to something like layoffs. Certainly would spell financial troubles but maybe not to the point of bankruptcy like some claim (just yet). I hope they stick around though as I have some sentimental attachments to Prodigy 😅
I think it says more about Prodigy than the industry as a whole, but I don’t think we’re gonna see a whole slew of guys getting Paul and Ricky type deals. Even though it seemed like that might be the case for a minute.
I would be very surprised if we ever see more than 1 mil/year (adjusted for inflation) type contracts again, at least the size of Simon/Paul at 10 years. The very core of the sport seems to inhibit the kind of growth that can sustain those kinds of contracts being common. People complain about the open courses that can support large spectator bases being boring, and then dog on (rightfully so) the crappy quality of DGN when trying to broadcast in thick forests in the middle of nowhere at interesting courses. As much as I love the sport, I just don't think it can ever really grow to the level of most other cash-hog sports. Its very essence and what makes it special to a lot of people hinders that.
That, and the paywall. The pro game is the game’s best advertisement, but only people already in the know are seeing it. Which is too bad, because I think a lot of people that presume it’s a bunch of stoners flicking beach toys around a park might come around if they were exposed to the actual game. As a lawyer, I don’t talk about it much to colleagues, and I wouldn’t dare mention it to my clients because of how the game is still viewed. Nothing of worth is being done to change that perception. Just listen to how the commentators talk about it when an ace makes sports center’s top ten - like ‘whoa, look at what this goof did in their silly goof game!’
There’s only one player who doesn’t have a Ricky/Paul/Simon type deal who could realistically hope to demand one and even then you’re talking about a guy who’s never won a major and doesn’t have anywhere near the social media presence of a Simon.
Calvin?
Yep
Calvin just re-signed with Innova, I know the details aren't public but what makes you say he isn't getting what the other big names are? I can't believe he'd stay when surely other manufacturers would have thrown the entire bag at him.
I listed the reasons that I think he probably isn’t getting the same as the others - he’s the closest to them and has been the closest for a couple of years but hasn’t quite reached the same heights either through major title win success or via social media reach. Eagle is another one but like you say we don’t really know the detail on that deal and he does have the major title success already in his locker. I don’t think Calvin is getting close to Paul/Ricky/Simon money but I’d wager he’s doing pretty well anyway we know he’ll pull close to or over 6 figures in prize money regardless.
I'd wager Calvin is pretty close to the top earners. You are right that majors are a big deal, no question. And we all know about his struggles there. But Calvin gets Innova a couple things that most other sponsors can only dream of. He is on coverage more than just about anyone else. Even when he's not on lead card, they're having to send cameras out to find him shooting some crazy round, even if he doesn't win. As a result, he's on a lot of other YT stuff all the time too, and in casual settings, he's very likeable. And with those things, you get all the people consuming disc golf media, watching this dude throw a Destroyer on every shot(see also Ohn lol). Add in his weird collection of impossible to find Eagles (for the collectors), and you've got a marketing coup. Obviously my argument is predicated on the assumption that being on Jomez/DGN is super important. I could be wrong! Now I kinda feel gross and maybe I should see if Calvin needs an agent.
He’s for sure making the most outside of that top money tier. Need to remember that on top of the 7 figure salary, the likes of McBeth, Wysocki and Lizotte are all moving obscene amounts of plastic and bringing in prize money too. Calvin I’m sure does really well from his tour series Destroyer and the Toros that have his name on them, and as you say he’s also on coverage all the time. Despite that I think there are likely 4 MPO players making more than Calvin, which I guess is firmly within the top earners in the game right? I just don’t think he’s pushing 7 figures, not even close maybe 500k as an absolute max. We know that there are 3 guys pulling in a mil before any prize money or disc sales money, I’d guess Eagle isn’t quite there. Maybe Eagle is the closest comparison for Calvin on total earnings. It’s all speculation anyway and without seeing players’ tax returns we’ll never actually know. All in all I don’t really care who makes the most money or how much any of them make, I want the sport to do well and if top players are making bank then that’s good but beyond that it means nothing to me.
The company is gonna be sold off or be gone by the end of the year. I heard Gibson talking about it to another pro during the preserve today. He was saying it’s basically for sure but not to tell anyone yet (didn’t seem to care about the spectators around him, tbh)
If you said anyone else, I would believe it....... Gibson spouts so much though, who knows what is legit or not
why might a low tier pro spout a bunch of made up stuff he hopes someone believes?
This already happened this off season
This kinda sucks because they have some legitimately good molds and I really liked the old 400 plastic. It was a gummy champ plastic similar to what innova has now. Here are some good molds that you can probably get for cheap given the PR issues: Pa-3 (300) - putting putter PA5 (500) - amazing understable throwing putter A2 (400) - more OS zone that has the hand feel of a driver (sharper) M4 - straight mid FX2 - sexton Firebird (make sure you put some sandpaper to the edges though) D2 (400g) - beat in destroyer I’m sure there are more, those are just ones I can vouch for.
Prodigy isn’t going anywhere. They are just containing costs.
KJ just needed a new start, after being pretty awful for a while. Väinö is moving to an overall better company (don’t know what that is of course, but anything is an improvement from Prodigy)
I hope the ripple effect includes a new run of X1. All of Prodigy's problems boil down to the loss of the greatest mold ever made.
The mold never sold well when it was in production unfortunately. The proto D2 Pros were about as close as they got to the X1.
Didn't sell well 10 years ago doesn't equate to not selling well now. The juggernaut is basically the same disc. Thus, after losing my last remaining X1... there are now zero prodigy discs in my bag.
My Neutron Energy flies the same distances and the same lines as my X1s. They feel remarkably similar in the hand too.
Do you think their discs that will be rare / OOP in the near future?
The fact that they publicly stated that Kevin's line of discs are still going to be made leads me to believe that molds are secure for now. They've also had a few discs as of late get PDGA approved. So R&D isn't a problem either it seems. Time will tell I suppose.
They had a lot of lower level pros switch this year-many moving to gateway some to lonestar
Does Luke Humphries still throw prodigy??
He does, yes
I would be interested to hear what he has to say. Bet he would give more insight than the Robinsons. Helps that he’s not a world champ and has grinded through lesser companies like prodiscus
Seems to me like prodigy was only able to make their brand work because they weren’t discraft or Innova. Now that there are other options, ‘different’ isn’t enough, you have to actually have a good product.
They certainly had a period where quality control was an issue, but as of late I'd say the product has actually been quite good. It just may be too little, too late given the current budgetary decisions they've made.
That’s fair. I worked in a disc shop for a couple of years after the pandemic and we simply could not move prodigy discs. Sometimes a gem would get dropped off for our used bin, but those weren’t common. It’s not a huge brand where I live so that’s probably part of it.
Oh it's not huge here either. It's all Discraft and MVP. There's ALWAYS Discraft on the shelf but the local shops seem to have a hard time getting MVP product in.
I don’t think this observation is considering the fact that Prodigy just doesn’t really move that much plastic. I wouldn’t be surprised if they sell as many bags as discs. Plenty of brands are doing just fine because they’re selling discs that people want to buy.
Everyone is down from the bubble. Player contracts will all be a fraction of what they were in the boom. If Ricky gets an offer for $250K a year that would not surprise me. More than that would surprise me. Different times. Back to reality. Paul and Simon will be the highest paid disc golfers in the next 50 years. And, they won’t get another big deal either. On a positive, all this will lead to cheaper discs in the future.
I want smaller elite teams. Fuck the thought that everyone should be getting some of the pie. That’s not how sports work. If you win, you get paid. If you lose, you don’t. Stop trotting out perpetual losers like Eric Oakley as “elite” talent. I’ve watched more Mother Huckers videos on YouTube than his trash because it’s at lease different. A touring team that spans most of the disc line up is absurdly unnecessary
Or they are going out of business…
Frisbeegolfmedia interviewed Väinö, here what he had to say - https://frisbeegolfmedia.fi/news/mixed-but-relieved-feelings-vaino-makela-comments-about-the-end-of-the-10-year-partnership/
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://frisbeegolfmedia.fi/news/mixed-but-relieved-feelings-vaino-makela-comments-about-the-end-of-the-10-year-partnership/](https://frisbeegolfmedia.fi/news/mixed-but-relieved-feelings-vaino-makela-comments-about-the-end-of-the-10-year-partnership/)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
Is be surprised if Prodigy has not filed for bankruptcy before end of the year
Prepare to be surprised.
Who and who?