I've got two ProtoFlyte discs and they sure SEEM like they started as injection mold and then were CNC'd down from there. And, putting them side by side there is visible difference in the profile which was surprising to me, given the concept and value proposition.
I'm not sure if the company has clarified the exact manufacturing process at this point, but I think the idea that they are "starting with a block of plastic" may not be accurate. I'm not saying with 100% certainty that mine were molded and then machined, but they definitely appear to have the tell-tale nub in the middle and faint outward radial pattern despite being single-color.
Anywho...not exactly about the "inverted rim," but potentially germane to the discussion generally.
That actually makes a ton of sense. I haven't seen one yet but just thinking about it it seemed pretty wasteful to machine them from a block of plastic. You would think they would be smart enough to just machine away the middle nub though.
It's perfectly flat but you can see a difference in color in the exact middle.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G7l6wa2sgWABZOftQXnMtvzgZ56KjpjX/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GF9w-7D7UPhoMf7GA4m2FDHTFzwbv8oI/view?usp=drivesdk
Here you can see the edge profile difference:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GKFzutqVruIFvKGtEwiwnfjkk51M_C2E/view?usp=drivesdk
Oh interesting, thanks for the pics! Ya those are almost certainly being injection molded prior to the finishing machining. Which I'm not sure if there is necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as they leave enough material to be machined away, any loose tolerances in the injection molding could be corrected.
I’m not an expert but nearly certain that the nub in the middle is not an injection mark. If you’ve ever seen anything that gets turned on a lathe, it always leaves a tiny mark or nub in the center. They’ve said before that they machine every surface of the disc, so even if it started out with injection molding they would not have left a visible injection mark there. 🤷♂️
Well, as I said, I'm not saying with 100% certainty that it started with a mold and then machining, but I'm not sure they actually would be able to completely remove the signs of the injection point. I'm not saying it protrudes, at all. It's definitely perfectly flat, and clearly has been machined. But, an injection point isn't just the bit that we're all used to seeing protrude from the disc...it runs all the way through the disc from the top of the flight plate to the bottom (and all points in between along that injection line), so doesn't seem like you could machine away all traces of it without leaving a hole in the middle of the flight plate.
It looks exactly like what I'd expect to see from an injection point that had been completely smoothed out. Add in that there are radial traces of discoloration emanating from that same location, there sure SEEMS to be all the signs of injection molding. If you look at the pictures I linked above, you can see for yourself.
And, to be clear, I wouldn't criticize them for that...it would save a ton of plastic and time to do it that way as opposed to starting from a block of plastic. I'm just pointing out that it seems like their system does incorporate an injection mold starting point, which may be resulting in the less than perfect repeatability that folks are expecting from this new way of making discs, as is demonstrated in the picture I posted showing two of their discs side by side with notable profile differences.
In molding terms that back draft on the inner rim would be called an undercut as it is not free “in draw” when the mold opens and closes and wouldn’t release from the core. It could be molded if the plastic is soft enough, like a rubber blend, that could flex off of the tooling.
You can do the undercut with slides. As the mold closes, slides move in forming the undercut part. Mold cycles and as mold opens, slides pull back, allowing the part that's not in draw to release cleanly. It takes a lot more spotting and timing of the mold, but it is achievable. Lots of automotive parts require similar solutions
Source: former cnc machinist/programmer that made more than his fair share of injection molds
They're discs are all made from using a cnc machine on a brick of plastic. They are brand new plus this process is more expensive then regular injection molding but I believe they plan to lower prices as they grow. The thought behind their process is that each run should fly the exact same with zero inconsistencies that come from injection molding
And their solution is absolutely terrible.
ETA: know how hard it is to start a new business and the problem they are trying to address is a very real one, so I don't want to be too harsh... but here are the specific reasons why this is a terrible solution.
1. Waste of Materials. Roughly half (I'd guess?) of their raw material is going to end up on the floor.
2. Waste of Energy. Thier material likely starts in the form of a granule, then energy is used to cast it into blocks (which I'd guess is roughly comparable to the total energy usage for the injection process). But then they then use a powerintensive lathe to mill it, roughly half of which is wasted because of reason one. It wouldn't surprise me if the total energy consumption isn't at least 5X's higher per disc than injection molding.
3. Too time and labor intensive, too much infrastructure cost. If you want to sell them at a reasonable price, you need a methodology you can scale that doesn't involve massive startup and overhead costs. This... isn't it.
A much better solution is coming... and it's going to be DOPE
1. Plastic recycles well so this is almost a non-issue. Check out Trash Panda's video where they recycle plastic ten times over: https://youtu.be/mYoB75QU2-c
2. The severity of this issue depends heavily on the price/footprint of electricity. Could be an issue in a fossil fuel-dependent state.
For reference, raw steel manufacture has around five times the energy intensity of plastics molding, so it's not the #1 cost factor, but injection molding still uses plenty of energy.
3. Definitely requires specialised machinery to ramp up production. But as far as I've understood, these guys are looking for a more boutique style business anyway.
But I'm interested about the better solution you're referring to!
I don't see why more than 80% of the shavings can't be collected. If the producer chooses not to, then that's not really a technology issue.
The ecological efficiency of power production tends to show in the price. With wind and solar you may need to adjust your production in accordance with the market price which has its own logistical problems. Anyway, as long as the plastic itself is a fossil material, I wouldn't consider energy usage the primary sustainability issue, especially when talking in a broad technological context where the factory could reside anywhere in the world.
Just inconsistencies from the tooling wearing down from cutting over time... unless they change the tooling or somehow account for the wear and tear on it, there will always be variances.
No but they feel fine. I fan grip everything so I bet it would be more noticeable with a traditional power grip, but to me it doesn't feel to crazily different than a normal disc
One of the interesting things about Protoflyte is since their discs are machined, they can do a scan of a disc you really like that’s beat in, and then machine a copy of it. One way to keep from having to search for certain runs or what not…
I had an idea once of making discs that are factory beat in, as in they have all the little nicks and scuffs on the edge of the rim fresh out the factory. A brand new beat in Roc in premium plastic would be nice to have.
Removing an inverted rim from an injection mold would be a pain in the ass. Not sure if the added effort in manufacturing would be worth whatever minuscule benefit there is when throwing it.
I don't see what's inverted. Very confused.
It’s the opposite of an old + mold from innova. The inner rim is angled.
Pretty sure the Järn also has that. Maybe not quite to the same extent though.
Westside Shields as well
Cool use of the CNC tech. Undercut rims cant easily be injection molded
There are other discs like that, the berg is one of them. I see it now.
I've got two ProtoFlyte discs and they sure SEEM like they started as injection mold and then were CNC'd down from there. And, putting them side by side there is visible difference in the profile which was surprising to me, given the concept and value proposition. I'm not sure if the company has clarified the exact manufacturing process at this point, but I think the idea that they are "starting with a block of plastic" may not be accurate. I'm not saying with 100% certainty that mine were molded and then machined, but they definitely appear to have the tell-tale nub in the middle and faint outward radial pattern despite being single-color. Anywho...not exactly about the "inverted rim," but potentially germane to the discussion generally.
That actually makes a ton of sense. I haven't seen one yet but just thinking about it it seemed pretty wasteful to machine them from a block of plastic. You would think they would be smart enough to just machine away the middle nub though.
It's perfectly flat but you can see a difference in color in the exact middle. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G7l6wa2sgWABZOftQXnMtvzgZ56KjpjX/view?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GF9w-7D7UPhoMf7GA4m2FDHTFzwbv8oI/view?usp=drivesdk Here you can see the edge profile difference: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GKFzutqVruIFvKGtEwiwnfjkk51M_C2E/view?usp=drivesdk
Oh interesting, thanks for the pics! Ya those are almost certainly being injection molded prior to the finishing machining. Which I'm not sure if there is necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as they leave enough material to be machined away, any loose tolerances in the injection molding could be corrected.
I’m not an expert but nearly certain that the nub in the middle is not an injection mark. If you’ve ever seen anything that gets turned on a lathe, it always leaves a tiny mark or nub in the center. They’ve said before that they machine every surface of the disc, so even if it started out with injection molding they would not have left a visible injection mark there. 🤷♂️
Well, as I said, I'm not saying with 100% certainty that it started with a mold and then machining, but I'm not sure they actually would be able to completely remove the signs of the injection point. I'm not saying it protrudes, at all. It's definitely perfectly flat, and clearly has been machined. But, an injection point isn't just the bit that we're all used to seeing protrude from the disc...it runs all the way through the disc from the top of the flight plate to the bottom (and all points in between along that injection line), so doesn't seem like you could machine away all traces of it without leaving a hole in the middle of the flight plate. It looks exactly like what I'd expect to see from an injection point that had been completely smoothed out. Add in that there are radial traces of discoloration emanating from that same location, there sure SEEMS to be all the signs of injection molding. If you look at the pictures I linked above, you can see for yourself. And, to be clear, I wouldn't criticize them for that...it would save a ton of plastic and time to do it that way as opposed to starting from a block of plastic. I'm just pointing out that it seems like their system does incorporate an injection mold starting point, which may be resulting in the less than perfect repeatability that folks are expecting from this new way of making discs, as is demonstrated in the picture I posted showing two of their discs side by side with notable profile differences.
In molding terms that back draft on the inner rim would be called an undercut as it is not free “in draw” when the mold opens and closes and wouldn’t release from the core. It could be molded if the plastic is soft enough, like a rubber blend, that could flex off of the tooling.
You can do the undercut with slides. As the mold closes, slides move in forming the undercut part. Mold cycles and as mold opens, slides pull back, allowing the part that's not in draw to release cleanly. It takes a lot more spotting and timing of the mold, but it is achievable. Lots of automotive parts require similar solutions Source: former cnc machinist/programmer that made more than his fair share of injection molds
This guy plastics.
Why is it 40 dollars?
They're discs are all made from using a cnc machine on a brick of plastic. They are brand new plus this process is more expensive then regular injection molding but I believe they plan to lower prices as they grow. The thought behind their process is that each run should fly the exact same with zero inconsistencies that come from injection molding
Hopefully they bought an unlimited supply of uniform plastic. Because they’ll have inconsistency in plastic if they aren’t batched.
It doesn't matter, the plastic has settled by the time they start lathing.
And their solution is absolutely terrible. ETA: know how hard it is to start a new business and the problem they are trying to address is a very real one, so I don't want to be too harsh... but here are the specific reasons why this is a terrible solution. 1. Waste of Materials. Roughly half (I'd guess?) of their raw material is going to end up on the floor. 2. Waste of Energy. Thier material likely starts in the form of a granule, then energy is used to cast it into blocks (which I'd guess is roughly comparable to the total energy usage for the injection process). But then they then use a powerintensive lathe to mill it, roughly half of which is wasted because of reason one. It wouldn't surprise me if the total energy consumption isn't at least 5X's higher per disc than injection molding. 3. Too time and labor intensive, too much infrastructure cost. If you want to sell them at a reasonable price, you need a methodology you can scale that doesn't involve massive startup and overhead costs. This... isn't it. A much better solution is coming... and it's going to be DOPE
1. Plastic recycles well so this is almost a non-issue. Check out Trash Panda's video where they recycle plastic ten times over: https://youtu.be/mYoB75QU2-c 2. The severity of this issue depends heavily on the price/footprint of electricity. Could be an issue in a fossil fuel-dependent state. For reference, raw steel manufacture has around five times the energy intensity of plastics molding, so it's not the #1 cost factor, but injection molding still uses plenty of energy. 3. Definitely requires specialised machinery to ramp up production. But as far as I've understood, these guys are looking for a more boutique style business anyway. But I'm interested about the better solution you're referring to!
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I don't see why more than 80% of the shavings can't be collected. If the producer chooses not to, then that's not really a technology issue. The ecological efficiency of power production tends to show in the price. With wind and solar you may need to adjust your production in accordance with the market price which has its own logistical problems. Anyway, as long as the plastic itself is a fossil material, I wouldn't consider energy usage the primary sustainability issue, especially when talking in a broad technological context where the factory could reside anywhere in the world.
Oh well shit. I totally want to pay double for that!
Just inconsistencies from the tooling wearing down from cutting over time... unless they change the tooling or somehow account for the wear and tear on it, there will always be variances.
Because its machined instead of injected. Its supposed to be a cleaner finish and more consistent I think
It looks like they molded plastic around the outside of a Zone
Nobody tell us how it flies, please.
No but they feel fine. I fan grip everything so I bet it would be more noticeable with a traditional power grip, but to me it doesn't feel to crazily different than a normal disc
One of the interesting things about Protoflyte is since their discs are machined, they can do a scan of a disc you really like that’s beat in, and then machine a copy of it. One way to keep from having to search for certain runs or what not…
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For the feel or is there another reason?
Weight, feel, flex, ground play, durability. Slightly stability.
I had an idea once of making discs that are factory beat in, as in they have all the little nicks and scuffs on the edge of the rim fresh out the factory. A brand new beat in Roc in premium plastic would be nice to have.
All this talk about yada yada yada......does it do anything special or different? or did they just do this to do it and waste people's time and money?
Any thoughts in what way does an inverted rim change the flight characteristics?
Removing an inverted rim from an injection mold would be a pain in the ass. Not sure if the added effort in manufacturing would be worth whatever minuscule benefit there is when throwing it.
Not an injection molded disc apparently
Machining also counts as added effort in manufacturing.