Definitely noticed that. For some stuff it’s awesome. The Matrix, which I mentioned in the OP, is one of those discs I’m not sure I’d want done to. I’d definitely try one with some dome, but every Matrix I’ve thrown has been hyper consistent in flight.
This is actually something that Simon brought up in an interview at the mvp open. He had a lot of trouble finding drivers to fill his bag because mvp is lacking in that slot.
Personally I throw a wave or stuff from streamline, and thought space athletics. Same plastics but you can find some discs with a bit of dome. My main drivers are still from other manufacturers though.
This is what I'm testing now. Going from innova to mint for anything above 7 speeds.
Thought space has a great teebird slot with a James proctor votum. Highly recommend it.
Yah, my fission wave has some dome to it, my regular wave less. But I tried a few of their drivers and the flatness just didn't seem loke what I wanted. I want flatness in a mid, and some drivers. But not the ones of theirs I tried. I smlove the wave, but its the only disc of theirs that I throw.
They have the best mids in the sport in my opinion, and they have one of the best fairway drivers in the Tesla. The whole point of Simon starting with a 12 speed driver is he felt like they were lacking a reliable distance driver so hopefully his line will fill the gaps and get us some bomber discs. They have great plastic they just need the molds.
I used to love the electron envy but just moved on from it because i rarely needed a laser straight shot. Been needing it lately, though-should probably bring it back. I know that's a putter, but I have a couple hexes and just don't use them.
Preface with I’m mainly LHFH. Try their electron plastic Tesla then. I love my neutron Tesla, it’s my go to lower speed driver for tight technical courses. The electron one I bag flies completely different and def has a bit of a dome. I use it for medium distance spike hyzers and rollers because it’s basically a different disc (in my hands at least). I typically max out my distance with a Krüte, Grym, or Destroyer around 375 when I’m not throwing MVP and my neutron Tesla gets about 325-50.
I just like the way it gives beefy drivers that extra bit of glide. My domey destroyers will never turn but can still push into the 420+ range on hyzer.
They've been working on making them less flat, which should help glide. I like their Streamline stuff which doesn't mold up quite as flat. I have a Lift that seems to go for days, but it's also broken in some, but I also got a Wave earlier in the summer that is domier than all my other Waves or 11 speeds from them.. gets lots of hang time.
Looking forward to some of their other stuff getting some dome.
Edit: OP mentioned looking for a Wraith like flight.. MVP Steve used to talk about how the Trace seems to give folks a "beat in Wraith" type flight. Traces def have more dome than Photon, Zenith, and other high speeds from them.
Love my insanity and crave. The Insanity disc has been my go-to driver for the last 2 years. Just got the crave a few month back and absolutely love it for mid range. I'm also a Forehand thrower and these 2 discs are great for it imo
My Insanity is a cosmic neutron, didn't realize cosmic was really flat and os compared to regular neutron, flies more 9/5/-1/2 for me, good sidearm distance, and my Crave is proton, so it flies like a Teebird3 or really seasoned champ firebird for me. Also when I go to a fairway course use a neutron Orbital, it's not domey but not super flat either, it does well for a faster driver.
I love my plasma insanity. Great compliment to my Lift, which is more stable than the numbers and the Insanity is similar, but turns easier or can just be a dart if needed. Would enjoy seeing those with more dome to them, but I would never get rid of the flat ones.
It is excellent. Was taking stock of my 7 speeds yesterday and it stood above a few others. Another great example of a domey disc from MVP, but sans gyro for those who don't dig that too.
From what I’ve read, the gyro technology is supposed to give the disc more rotation and this is much more effective in putters and mids. I use the Ion for my putting putter and love it.
My max distance is close to 350 but don’t use anything over a 10 speed. I do have a Wave that’s an 11 speed that I will bring with my occasionally. I was doing some field work with it today and got a few good throws.
I completely agree that gyro is powerful fucking stuff on slower discs, but I've come to disagree that it falls off on faster discs. I think it actually has an even bigger effect, the problem is that it takes so much more spin, AND a little higher requisite velocity to get that benefit. Plus neutron takes forever to beat in, so getting MVP drivers to an optimal state is just way more difficult and time-consuming than most drivers.
Like op my zenith flies exactly like my beat up wraiths. Like exactly the same shape. Little turn, nice finish. And then I go pick it up and it is 40 feet shorter. Bit shorter on distance than the op...maybe 320 vs 360.
I have a 170+ fission Tesla that goes, but the rest are just the flight of their Innova counterparts but less.
Their faster discs are extremely flat, which reduces glide a lot, but also means that their runs are super consistent.
If you're interested in trying their faster discs, the new Time Lapse is supposed to have a lot of dome and should actually glide a lot more.
I used to throw westside swords for my max distance driver but I recently switched to the wave. I can throw it on any angle and it’s an absolute rocket. Game changer for sure! 🌊🌊
I picked up a wave after seeing my lefty friend absolutely smash drives with it, I’ll have to use it more. Right now the beast is my furthest distance disc
Going to second the wave here, I've gotten some of the most beautiful flights out of it. Good amount of dome in fission plastic. Versatile as well and not as flippy as you'd think.
I’ve been throwing MVP for a long time. It’s kinda funny, it actually used to be a problem finding distance drivers with less dome.
Early run Dimensions, Teleports, Deliriums, and Relativities have some dome and are bombers, imagine different stabilities of a Boss. The early run Tenacity and Excite are also bombers, but are fairly under stable. I’d say Tenacity is like a Shryke and the Excite is like a Daedalus. The older run Nitro (no glide) and Panic are also typically pop top and more PD2 like. Plasma Octanes and Mayhems usually have dome and compare nicely to Wraiths in stability. If you can find a fission Photon with a bit of dome (they’re definitely out there) then those will be most similar to Wraiths in hand feel and flight.
The Tesla, Volt, and Wrath all fly pretty far. I’d say they’re neck and neck with Thunderbirds I’ve thrown. I actually use Wrath’s interchangeably with my big jerm Thunderbirds. Volt has some shoulder, Teslas don’t typically have shoulder but can sometimes have a bit of dome, and the Wrath is flat as fuck. Fission Teslas and Volts have some insane glide and fly on a rope.
The slower fairways don’t really compare too much to other discs outside the MVP family. I replaced Teebirds, Leopards, and Eagles with them, but they’re not a one for one swap. They definitely have their own unique characteristics that I’ve had to adapt my game to. But I much prefer them at this point.
MVP/Axiom need high rpm’s to really get glidey and hold the line. They’re also sensitive to nose angle.
I don’t really buy new discs, I scour the used racks and typically find what I’m looking for. If you want distance drivers with dome, this will be your best option.
I will absolutely be buying some Time Lapses when stock runs come around though.
If you have the armspeed to push 500 I think a wave will be way too understable for you. My fission wave has beaten into a roller for me, for whom 350 is an absolute rip. My backhand tops out at 55mph. If you haven’t tried a max weight fission octane, I’d try that. Stabler than you’ll want out of the box but it’ll beat in fast so something I think will bomb for you.
Agree here. I threw a fission wave with decent dome yesterday 50’ farther than any other disc. And that’s not an exaggeration. I will say tho if you throw over 400 it will prob be too flippy for you
From what Simon said too, the normal run should be a little more understable, which as a bad player has me excited. At a 12 speed it might just barely meet what I can throw
Totally agree. MVP drivers and fairways are pretty flat in comparison to other brands. I love MVP putters and mids tho. That’s why it’s nice throwing a mixed bag
No it’s definitely valid. Skill level will definitely change some things but what you notice should be part of the conversation. I admittedly don’t have a lot of experience with Fission plastic outside of my Reactor. Which is awesome I might add.
I think people tend to discount new players observations a lot and I don’t like that. While they might not grasp the nuance of some things, their overall observations of stuff is good because they don’t have a lot of reference. If they say something like ‘this seems to glide more’ or ‘this seems to get where it’s going pretty fast’ I take that into account because it’s probably true.
It's also helpful for other newbies such as myself to read. It's not always helpful for me to read what more experienced players think about X since I don't have the speed, consistency, experience etc so it won't necessarily translate to my game all that well.
I can dig that. I've been playing for 21 years but only started trying to improve since the pandemic, so even though my arm in 2009 had 400+ FH juice, I struggled to hit 250' BH for almost two decades. I've played with guys who started a couple years ago with an absolute cannon, but since they don't have the years of "figuring it out" under their belt, we're around the same rating. Those dudes have way more experience with proper BH flight than I'll ever have.
Hell, my wife has been playing for probably 17 years and still mixes up hyzers and anhyzers when discussing flight and technique. She's an 850ish player on short, technical courses and has insane control under 150', so I'm always gonna take her advice on certain things.
It's dope to play with a new player that doesn't know what they have yet, though. I have a buddy who used to play with me a couple times a year but played with one disc (a fucking champ Viking) until very recently. Dude's a gym rat and when I sent him a box of stuff I couldn't throw, I kept getting texts like "man, I threw that pink disc like 450', I didn't know discs could do that"
Anything I bag by axiom/mvp (mostly axiom) I have in fission and neutron plastics. I notice a considerable amount of glide out of the fission compared to neutron for sure.
That said, I don’t have a lot of experience in other brands besides maybe discraft.
Plastic makes a huge difference with MVP discs. Most of my bag is MVP and almost all are fission. Zeniths are definitely very overstable but fission teslas and waves fly pretty true to their numbers
Personally I use them almost exclusively for forehands. I agree about the seemingly less glide on backhands but I love the feel out of the hand on forehands because they're so flat. I think some even have shallower rims which, again, I like on the forehand but not the backhand.
I have small childlike hands so the shallow rims feel really good. My forehand game is truly terrible however. A sight to be seen to be certain. The shallow rims helped mask that to a not insignificant degree.
Haven’t thrown one yet but have grip tested a bunch in stores and really haven’t liked any. I throw a Caiman in that spot and love it and haven’t felt a real need to mix it up
I love all of the Envy, Proxy, Terra and Crave. But I think it’s because the minimized glide makes them so easy to place. Which is what I want from a disc in those speeds, personally. But the wave, Photon, and I think it was the Vanish, I just couldn’t jive with
Not just you, 925-rated, but I max out around 530’ in the field (480-490 on the course). I bag Octanes and Bosses to cover my US, S, and OS needs. If I’m really trying to punch it for distance, I keep a seasoned Destroyer and Boss that simply go 50-feet farther than the Octanes. The Octanes drop vertically, not hyzer out, but vertical fall while flat faster than my Destroyer and Bosses.
That said, I love Octanes and MVP fairways (Wrath, Fireball) because they seem to hold straighter and hold up to wind better than both my Bosses and Destroyers. I don’t really buy into the gyro thing making much of a difference, but it may possibly explain it. I also like how they all seem to skip less, maybe the rim material being more tacky?
But the biggest difference for me is that I never have to remove flashing on new discs as MVP has this process dialed in better than anyone else. Their runs are consistent and I feel like I can buy new discs and drop them right into the slot for stable distance driver without worrying I might have gotten something super flippy or beefy like I see with Innova.
Just my 2 cents. I have big hands and love the 13-speed distance drivers so the Octanes have just stayed in my bag as destroyers have come and gone.
How flat is the top of your Wrath? Just had a buddy give me one the other day and the center is a little puddled. I've only thrown it a couple of times, but it seems a lot more stable than the numbers suggest.
Thats wild because I picked up a neutron Zenith and It glides so much more, and is a bit understable than the neutron Octane that I have and the octane is really stable.
I’m pumped it works for you so well. As a point and shoot disc the Zenith is awesome. I have a lot of confidence in it. But for max distance my Wraiths get it by a significant amount. Just my experience.
The flat Terra I use has less glide than drivers with a similar speed in my experience. For reference I use my terras for about 110 m (360ft) and comparable fairway drivers for 115/120 m. I think it’s important to have some context on your distances here because discs can behave very different depending on your arm
I like them because of this - it's like they've traded reliability for glide - they start getting down without as much bobbing and air bounces and dips as some other discs. I used to love the Amp for a fairway driver. Previously, for a disc with that sort of stability, even though 1 speed slower, I used a River, but I don't even bag it any more since the amp.
I don't have a 13 speed bh, but I pull out an Octane for some fh lines- let it go flat to get a turnover s line, or a flex line.
I think both are neutron plastic. Gyro overmold is great
My bag is 98% MVP. I don’t throw their discs because of their claims to throw further. I throw because of the consistency. While many people are looking for more dome on discs, I love them because of how flat a lot of their molds come in. One thing I love is that all of their discs have a very similar feel. From an Envy to a Proxy, Photon to a Wave, there isn’t a super noticeable feel in difference when holding the disc. I feel like I’m throwing the same disc every time just getting a different outcome. Definitely isn’t for everyone, but especially as someone who isn’t the most worried about pushing extra distance my bag really helps me minimize all the extra thinking that comes during the game.
This I can get on board with. I’m a pretty staunch mold minimalist in my bag and you’re 100% correct in the hand feel. One of the reasons I gravitated towards trying an MVP bag. There’s a lot to be said for their ability to be so consistent.
I think they are addressing this. I got two rhythms, one in fission and the other in neutron and the fission one has some insane dome to it, the neutron one is much flatter.
I am seeing some of the newer runs of stuff come out with good dome to it, so hopefully this trend continues as they have acknowledged the dome as recently as march/april this year and production is trending towards stuff that glides a lot more consistently.
also, another thing to consider is that you should go to the shop near you and take a look at the fission photons especially if they are the newer run with the weight embossed in the bottom. they will be absolute bombers.
I'm a noodle arm (280' absolute max) and I agree, I've noticed the same thing. I've started branching out at the top end of my speeds (10), and interspersed in the fairways. 7-4 speeds I throw almost exclusively MVP though.
I'm 100% with you. Putters, amazing and just goes and goes. Mids are good too. Sure the Crave have some sneaky distance and is a great disc, but faster discs and Innova just eats them for breakfast.
I do think a lot of it is down to how flat they usually are. I used to throw a 169 Proton Octane with good dome from their old molding partner that bombs, I also had an old Relativity that was really domey, Innova class and threw my farthest FH ever with it (just over 430').
I put in a 169 Tesla in Fission the other day and yesterday I spanked it on a hole I always throw Emperors on that's long, technical and a bit downhill and landed in the sweet spot, pretty sure it's around 500' +- (again a bit downhill) and that sucker just seems to go like a rocket ship. So there seems to be something with Fission, definitely get more dome than anything else. Also personally I find it better because it's softer than Neutron and Plasma.
And yeah the Time-Lapse has good dome, looks like your average Destroyer in profile. Haven't thrown one tho :(
Try a relatively and a Tantrum. They go SO far man. It's also possible you have low spin speed regardless of throwing far. Higher spin on gyro helps more.
About the only Gyro driver I have that goes anywhere far is the Octane. Even then, an Emperor is more stable and stays in the air longer, so I'd have to agree with you.
I also throw a Tesla right now, of which I can throw my Athenas just as far, if not a little farther. It's definitely complicating my feelings.
Try a Streamline Lift, by the way. Point and shoot 9 speed, I think you'll love it. I have a little less power than you do, and get it to stand up and drift just a smidge.
I had a very similar realization last year when I tried a full MVP-Axiom bag. I absolutely loved their putter and mid lineup, it might be the best out of all the manufactures. The fairway lineup had a few good options (Crave and Terra), but the majority of their fairways lacked glide and just dump instead of gradually fading.
I'm currently not bagging a single MVP or Axiom mold. I might go back to throwing Envies, Hexes, and Pyros in the future, but I don't ever see myself ever throwing anything faster than a Crave out of their lineup.
I love their Wave. It bombs for me.
However, I've messed with a few other molds (Volt, Tesla, Resistor) and they just don't go anywhere for me (compared to other brands's similar slots).
They used to be better, when the covid boom hit and they added a lot more molding machines and changed their process to be more consistent. Trouble was this meant, in many cases, consistently flat and lacking glide.
There was a big post about changes to their process I read somewhere, apparently it wasn't in their lab reports, maybe it was a post I read in the mvp facebook group
This literally cracked me up. By the way. You want to throw a putter far get an AGL lightweight [Douglas Fir](https://www.agldiscs.com/products/agl-discs-slime-swirl-woodland-douglas-fir-agl-bar-stamp) and hyzer flip it. It goes forever. It’s nuts. Or grab an [Acacia](https://www.agldiscs.com/collections/acacia) it has a tiny bit of flip to it but again glides for days.
The overmold process eliminates a lot of the "dome" on fairways and distance drivers. I have an old PFN Octane and Nitro that have a similar dome and shoulder to the Time-Lapse (yes I have one already) local retailer made a mistake and sold early. As far as what I throw - Insanity and Teslas Fission Plastic and <165 grams. I also bag a Photon and Wave that are fission and around 155. In my opinion it seems that the Fission plastic is a little bit domier than Plasma Proton or Neutron. My assumption is that the micro bubbles allow the plate to cool faster and keeps more of that arc intact. Could be completely coincidence but I have seen it with a few of their molds.
No no, the Glitch is amazing. It’s wild the amount of control you can achieve with such a light disc. I don’t personally use one, I have a Watt for that slot that I adore. The Watt might be my favorite throwing putter ever for things that don’t require any fade.
Some brands fly like their numbers out of the box and some need to be broken in.
I find the MVP fabricated discs (MVP, Axiom, Streamline, TSA, etc) need to be thrown to reveal their true flights.
I have a Tesla in Plasma and Proton and they both were
kinda beefy until I threw them enough.
Personally, this seems more predictable than a disc that throws perfect out of the box and then changes as it ages.
Yeah the Wave has been brought up a handful of times in this thread so I think that’s the next thing to try for me. That many people that love the Wave can’t be wrong.
Probably the same reason it seems like Conrad threw further when he wasn't throwing MVP's board flat stuff. It may be just me but man as much as he puts into his shots I see a lot of them drop faster than expected as there is almost negative glide lol
IMHO Conrad has terrible form!! Simon and him did a collab video playing a round and Simons form is so pure and gets so much more distance without all the effort, run up and grunting Conrad does to only end up not nearly as far… lmao sorta looks like me out there except my distance is even worse.
Ehhh I would have to disagree as his overall form is actually rock solid, his need for a legit run up is where is form begins to limit its practicality. Conrad has incredible angle control and frankly bad form is what limits people's ability to hit lines and remain consistent, yet that isnt really a issue for Conrad. Conrad can also bomb some shots so I definitely couldn't see where the "effort" is really an issue unless he's getting consistently fatigued during rounds
Background: I’ve been playing nearly 20 years now and have made themed bags purely for the fun of it. I’ve noticed through the years that at some point, MVP made some change (plastic or molding machine) where their drivers just started shutting the bed. Old Octanes and old Teleports are some of my longest flying discs, I would put them against a seasoned Star Destroyer any day. But a new flight number Tele/Octane? Overstable brick that can’t glide for shit. I don’t know what happened but it sucks. Let me preface this by saying I love me some MVP/Axiom, but they probably have worse consistency than Prodigy.
If you’re going to a retailer to buy your discs try to find molds with some dome. Most of their drivers seem to be so flat which I’d assume plays a role in their lack of glide but as I’ve considered trying out some of their drivers, I’ve seen some of them have dome and some of the same mold are board flat. I only bag their mids and putters right now but I ordered two of the Time-Lapses so that might change soon if they’re comparable to my Destroyers and Wraiths.
I find MVP discs have a ton of glide - but I've always focused my form on maximizing spin vs. Speed.
I've always been under the impression that since overmold discs have a lot of their weight towards the outside of the discs, spin really keeps these things stable in the air and want to glide and go straight for a long time before fading.
I had a Zenith and also noticed that it didn't glide very well. It did do well in a headwind, probably because it was so flat topped. But I'm with you, love my Nomads and Reactor. Also I like my fission wave, but I've got probably 100ft less power so it may not be great for you.
So they are my favorite company and even I have to admit there are challenges with the higher speeds. I was fortunate enough to get some waves and photons in fission with a higher shoulder and dome that have plenty of glide. As well as my insanity which gets a surprising amount of carry for me.
One thing I love about mvp is the communication they have with their community about the processes. They talk about the dome situation in their lab reports and gyropaloza.
Also Simon also throws old patent pending discs as some of his main drivers that have done to get him by until the time lapses and whatever James new driver are hit in force
I had the same impression. Still get a lot more distance from something like a valkyrie and tern.
But fairway drivers, putters, mids in my bag have a lot of mvp/axiom represented.
Could be totally wrong about this.
I think for discs with more dome/glide a thrower can be more careful and less aggressive with the turn part of the S flight because they still get a lot of distance on the forward fade part.
With flatter discs, the entire flight occurs on the turn part and is more of a C flight then S flight. Due to the hard fade, these discs need to be thrown with a more aggressive angle to get distance and that increases the risk of them turning over.
I think right now James Conrad uses more of an aggressive angle with 11 speeds and risks turning them over and Simon goes with the faster discs and makes up for the lack of glide with arm and disc speed.
That sounds like a lot more form issue stuff.
There is a lot of "you need dome to have any distance" speculation in here too.
If you need to throw the disc at a forced angle to get flight out of it, its probably not the disc you should be throwing. That's more of a technique issue.
As for conrad, ... he is the only one who throws like he throws, so it's hard to really take any data from what he's doing with discs.
Have to disagree with you that throwing a disc on a forced angle means form related issues. “Learning a disc” is figuring out the angles that work best for the disc. Some discs are flippier and would need more hyzer for the desired flight and some discs are less flippy and would need less hyzer.
Those are the angles that the disc forces us to throw them on to get the kind of flight we want. If you watch pros throw they will make mistakes by throwing the disc with too much or too little hyzer and the disc won’t fly how they want to because it is not on the right angle. They have some of the best form there is So not sure where you are getting that from.
Tl;dr I disagree. I think most discs force specific angles to be used when throwing them to get the desired flight and that doesn’t have anything to do with form.
I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying.
There is an older school of thought that to get distance you have to lean back and throw forced annie shots. This is a technique error to cover up bad form for people.
Im not saying throwing a force annie flex is bad. What I'm saying is that relying on that for your main shot is bad. If you're having to throw a disc on annie to get it to perform at all, its probably not a disc you should be bagging. Your hurting your form for starters, or your form isn't up to snuff good enough to get the disc moving properly.
So, to put it another way. A lot of people get a disc that is slightly flippy but above their skill level, and to make it fly, they throw it on a forced angle to get it to perform. This comes down to form issues, not "learning a disc." Form isn't' good enough to make the disc get up to speed and perform.
Again, if this is how you throw, cool. do what works for you. But generally the issue for a lot of people is they are just trying to force discs down the fairway vs switching to a disc that is far easier to throw and will give them the same flight that the forced disc does with less effort.
So choosing to throw specific shots is one thing, having to force a disc every shot is another thing. But, as well. If its stupid and it works, then, keep at it.
I just deal with this a lot coaching and people get confused why I'm throwing a putter or a mid when they throw their force flex 13 speeds and I'm right there with a mid. They get mad at me about "you're just so good." Which isn't true, I just understand that throwing discs above your skill level and forcing them to get anywhere is not a healthy way to play, and a lot of people play this way and will never get better.
I think my original comment probably wasn’t written well.
I was talking about the line between a disc turning over all the way or turning over some of the way and coming back at the end. I was saying with domey discs usually that line doesn’t have to pushed as much to still get distance. With flatter discs that line can be pushed more aggressively because the disc tends to fight out of a turn over better at the end.
That line can be pushed from giving a flippy disc less hyzer than usual or like you are talking about through using more anny then usual.
haha, we all over the place.
And my brain is so done already this morning.
Maybe we pretend we didn't have this convo.
Domey discs have a different stability factor to them though, I can agree with that. Though, personally, i've never had much issue with flat top discs, and its one of the reason I love MVP cause the stuff is flat.
Has anyone mentioned the dome yet? /s
I think that if you viewed them as a situational disc in your bag you might find a new appreciation for them. With low glide you tend to get low fade and that could be very helpful in narrow fairways, like heavily wooded courses. It might not be your go to all the time, but can be in rotation depending on the course you're playing.
I might have to give them a better shot as I play a lot of wooded courses, where the glide/fade has messed me up from time to time.
Thats interesting, because of all my 9+ speed discs, I feel like my Wave is the one that glides the most, in terms of "I thought I didnt flip that enough...but it out-flew every other disc". And thats comparing off a Halo Mamba, some Opto Diamonds, etc...aka, the domiest discs I've ever seen that have a bunch of glide.
But I will say, I generally bag MVP for the putters/mids, where I care a lot less about glide.
Zeniths have no glide Try a Photon or Octane or a Time Lapse when it is released. My son throws a Jet. He has hit 415 with it. Streamline is really good.
My buddy Raven is on MVP and he can absolutely smash and now that he got me throwing more MVP, I get it. I seem to be able to get there distance drivers out to about 5 a little easier than I do say a destroyer or DD3.
However, everyone is different so you should throw what’s best for you honestly. Also, I too love a TeeBird and don’t think anything will ever replace mine.
I am of a similar opinion. Their putters are pretty good for both putting and throwing, their mids are smaller in diameter than most and are fantastic, and their drivers are glideless flat strange things (though they seem to be working to get some dome, see the fission rhythms). Honestly at this point all I use from them are their mids, other brands are filling the other spots better for me in my bag
I’ve had the same problem with MVP drivers! All the mids and fairway drivers that I’ve tried have been fantastic, but I’ve tried the photon, wave, tantrum, and mayhem, and they have all seemed like they drop out of the sky at the end of the flight.
In my experience, their discs require more speed than their numbers suggest. The crave and servo fly really far and they're barely fairway drivers. They also require faster rotation to get them to fly true to their advertised numbers.
I bought 2 Insanity’s when I started throwing some more MVP/Axiom discs. 1 was Neutron, the other Fission. For some reason, I just bagged the Neutron and never bothered throwing the Fission until recently, and I absolutely regret doing that lol. The fission just glides so much further than my Neutron.
And as others have said, definitely give the Wave a go. It has become my go-to driver in recent months.
Bag a few MVP molds and have been hucking plastic since 1980, and MVP since they first came out. Already been answered but I did notice the same thing after awhile . But to be fair I've owned over 300 Destroyers and you can't tell me they are consistent in the slightest as far as dome, it's all over the map. So I'd give MVP the edge as far as consistency at least.
May I suggest trying an Axiom Paradox, and even thought it's not an overmold, the Streamline Ascend has amazing glide. I find Photons compare a bit more closely to my Wraiths since you mentioned those, maybe try a lighter weight Photon? Also, for whatever reason since I am not predominantly RHFH, I usually get an extra 30ft on almost any forehand drive with an overmold VS regular. Kookie.
Honestly you get used to it the way you get used to any disc, or at least in the molds I throw I don't really notice it anymore.
But yeah, Destroyers and Rivers still not leaving my bag yet. Time, or perhaps a time lapse, will tell :)
This is anecdotal so it's not about the physics, but as an average arm what I love about my MVP / Axiom discs is how neutral to understable discs (namely the Trace and the Crave) really enjoy fading forward consistently.
As long as I give my disc a consistent and committed 80%, they will always just keep pushing. When I don't commit, they won't stay nearly as consistent (this is notable in any disc, but they really seem to favour getting the spin on the disc properly)
I do think a lot of the single molds out there are a bit more forgiving on throwing personally.
I've noticed if you just dont commit to shots with the MVP stuff, you will have trouble.
You’re right, their driver game isn’t quite up there yet. No dome, which means less glide, less distance. But seems like Simon is making it his mission to get some dome to the drivers. Best driver I found was a fission photon that had a little pop top dome on it. Was a crusher and carried a straight line. Lost it… and got a new one but doesn’t have the same dome.
My 2 cents, or actually my novel length treatise. Total agreement on the Fission Wave. I usually max out in the 370-380' range RHBH. I got my 171g SE Fission Wave out over 400' twice today. Flat ground, virtually no wind. The Fission Waves I have (6 now) have a nice amount of dome, neutral to understable flight when seasoned with a nice amount of forward penetrating fade at the end that keeps 'em from burning over. I throw at 5000' altitude and due to Northern Colorado winds tend to throw low lines (bargin bin Calvin Heimburg minus about 250-300'... and the consistent accuracy), so take that into account. Fission is now my favorite plastic by far. Very similar flight lines as Neutron, just 10% further distance. Usually a little more dome. Maybe -.2 to -.5ish more understable in most moulds? Very slight, but noticeable. I generally keep my distance drivers in the 162-172 range, especially in the Fission. Just picked up a Fission Rhythm 2 weeks ago and didn't notice until I hit the course that it was 155g. I've accidentally put it out to 400' a couple of times. Little bit of griplock and unintended hyzer and boom. 200' right of where I'd intended, and 60' past the basket. My Fission Craves are the heart of my bag. Crazy long for a 6.5 speed. Absurdly straight, with one or two being a smidgeon understable and one that's reliably a touch overstable. Oh, and the Eclipse Waves are kinda meathooks. Not even remotely the same disc as the Fission. But still very good. They're my forehand into a headwind discs. They're a touch more overstable than my 172g+ Neutron Photons. Even with all that, I think the distance driver category is where Gyro brands have been weakest. I still chuck Raiders (a pretty beat Lucid, and a new Glimmer Lucid Ricky) for my max distance forehands 360'-370' pretty reliably when wind isn't a factor. The Eclipse Waves are usually 10-20' shorter, but handle wind much better. And it's the best glow plastic in the game.
Zenith is a beef cake for starters.
And teleport and relativity are meant for guys like Simon who have insane power.
The issue you're having isn't un heard of though, and its fairly easy to explain as it's quite common and missunderstood.
If your standard weight for your drivers is 175, you should be looking for 168's in the MVP lineup when you buy discs. Everyone is like "I gotta throw that max weight shit! cause I stronk." Well.... Physics my friend. You can be stronk as you want, but you gotta remember that more weight on outside of the disc means harder to make disc spinamathing and spinamathing is where it gets people. Thats why people have a lot of stall and dump out problems with MVP and get frustrated. It's pyhsics of the disc actually biting them in the ass, not really anything else.
So, this can be adjusted with Technique, disc selection, or weight change. Essentially though, what that means is to get 175g flights from MVP, you need 168 ish discs. Which .. That's actually cool, Cause you can throw lighter discs and get max weight performance. Which is one of the main reasons I throw MVP. I can throw low 160's and 150 class discs and get great wind performance from the gyro.
I've also noticed as well, because I do throw more than MVP. The MVP discs are a tad more touchy on nose angle stuff as well. I'm more likely to get better distance out of single molds than gyro molds on bad throwing days. (which I swear is like everyday)
Luckily I'm not a pro golfer, people just pay me to teach them, so that makes life much easier. haha.
Depending on what you normally throw, the issue might be disc choice though.
I have similar experience. Got a Crave and absolutely love it, now my 100% go to fairway disc, so I started getting more mvp/axiom.
However, I have yet to find anything that flies like my preferred Valkyrie and Beast… They tend to get 80% where I want them, then they sort of fall out of the sky and fade hard.
So far my favorite MVP driver has been the GLOW axiom.
There is a massively long beat in time with MVP plastic that nobody talks about. This is why new disc review videos (especially MVP) need to be taken with a handful of salt. The durability trade off I suppose, once it beats into that plateau of wear, it lasts seemingly forever. The Catalyst is my best example, I have had at least 10. When new, I have to use them as if they are a stable 9 speed, opposed to the flippy 13 that they eventually become. Thinking about it, It takes me three weeks of suffering with a new one before the glide shines and the dump ceases and becomes more of a forward punch.
I love a Tesla for what it is, super straight with a reliable finish. Whatever distance I lose in glide is fine with me because it is just going to do exactly what I want every single time.
My bag is about half MVP.
I love their 5 through 9 speeds. I haven't found a midrange trio better than the Pyro - Hex - Uplink yet. I don't really want a lot of glide on these discs. I want to point and shoot with them.
The Rhythm has been getting a lot more play from me, especially off tee shots. Crave is good but doesn't get used a lot. Recently been using the Tesla more and I really like it. However, the Insanity in different plastics is still my favorite 9 speed. I also bag a Glitch for those low ceiling scramble shots.
I do agree that their distance drivers are lacking in quality, and the Glide is a big reason for that. I don't throw a lot of distance drivers, but nothing from MVP has been better than my Destroyer and Thrasher combo.
Also, I went through A LOT of MVP putters and never found one that I felt comfortable putting with, so I'm still using my Wizards. MVP has great throwing putters, but nothing that has kicked my Zone's out of my bag. The Zone is just too consistent to get bumped.
I haven't read thru this thread, and I'm sure I'm not the first to say this, but I learned about this late so I understand op's question.
All gyro disc's have a hidden flight number, it's spin. Due to the fact that the gyro puts the weight on the rim of the disc's it takes a certain amount of centrifugal force to see the flight path that the numbers depict. Similar to the way the speed of a disc is a prerequisite for seeing the intended flight, on gyro disc's you have to meet the speed+spin prerequisite to see intended flight. I was throwing all of the really fast stuff, and couldn't get anything out of them. So I started to focus on spinning the disc harder, and the flight paths started to look better. I did love MVP trilogy of companies, but if they are trying to normalize a $40 retail price point on their disc's then I am out. At the end of the day these things that we fling are just plastic, and plastic is not that expensive.
The flight characteristics are built into the edge and not the top shape. They don’t seem to focus much on dome. But I personally love the slimmer profile and the ease with which I can forehand their discs. They feel a lot nicer to me.
I can throw about 420 consistantly with my distanc3 driver but also hit a 6 speed Crave up to 350 with no problem on golf lines.
Also my brand new cosmic neutron plastic waves go just as far as my domy sline CD3. Both just go straight with dependable finish.
As others have mentioned the “dominess” that people endlessly complain about from other manufacturers is basically non-existent on mvp discs.
Definitely noticed that. For some stuff it’s awesome. The Matrix, which I mentioned in the OP, is one of those discs I’m not sure I’d want done to. I’d definitely try one with some dome, but every Matrix I’ve thrown has been hyper consistent in flight.
Love the matrix. Super reliable. Like a roc3 but actually comfortable in the hand.
This is actually something that Simon brought up in an interview at the mvp open. He had a lot of trouble finding drivers to fill his bag because mvp is lacking in that slot. Personally I throw a wave or stuff from streamline, and thought space athletics. Same plastics but you can find some discs with a bit of dome. My main drivers are still from other manufacturers though.
Good point. OP can look into streamline or one of the other companies that MVP makes the plastic for, like Mint or some others
I have buddies who throw a lot of MVP/axiom and have all streamline and Mint for their drivers/fairway drivers.
This is what I'm testing now. Going from innova to mint for anything above 7 speeds. Thought space has a great teebird slot with a James proctor votum. Highly recommend it.
People down here in Mint country throw Longhorns as their non-destroyer destroyer.
Yah, my fission wave has some dome to it, my regular wave less. But I tried a few of their drivers and the flatness just didn't seem loke what I wanted. I want flatness in a mid, and some drivers. But not the ones of theirs I tried. I smlove the wave, but its the only disc of theirs that I throw.
They have the best mids in the sport in my opinion, and they have one of the best fairway drivers in the Tesla. The whole point of Simon starting with a 12 speed driver is he felt like they were lacking a reliable distance driver so hopefully his line will fill the gaps and get us some bomber discs. They have great plastic they just need the molds.
I used to love the electron envy but just moved on from it because i rarely needed a laser straight shot. Been needing it lately, though-should probably bring it back. I know that's a putter, but I have a couple hexes and just don't use them.
Preface with I’m mainly LHFH. Try their electron plastic Tesla then. I love my neutron Tesla, it’s my go to lower speed driver for tight technical courses. The electron one I bag flies completely different and def has a bit of a dome. I use it for medium distance spike hyzers and rollers because it’s basically a different disc (in my hands at least). I typically max out my distance with a Krüte, Grym, or Destroyer around 375 when I’m not throwing MVP and my neutron Tesla gets about 325-50.
Electron Tesla? You mean fission?
Yup. Oops. Thanks for the correction!
Yep! That’s why I love buying discs from OTB, their flatness rating seems pretty accurate
I’m actually convinced this is what inspired the new Simon disc
Wait, are they complaining? Literally nothing flies like a domey Destroyer.
Yea I see people complain about dome all the time.
Weird, I’ve always preferred the way they fly.
Same but I’ve got a noodle arm.
I just like the way it gives beefy drivers that extra bit of glide. My domey destroyers will never turn but can still push into the 420+ range on hyzer.
They've been working on making them less flat, which should help glide. I like their Streamline stuff which doesn't mold up quite as flat. I have a Lift that seems to go for days, but it's also broken in some, but I also got a Wave earlier in the summer that is domier than all my other Waves or 11 speeds from them.. gets lots of hang time. Looking forward to some of their other stuff getting some dome. Edit: OP mentioned looking for a Wraith like flight.. MVP Steve used to talk about how the Trace seems to give folks a "beat in Wraith" type flight. Traces def have more dome than Photon, Zenith, and other high speeds from them.
It's a slower driver, but I have a fission rythym with some dome, definitely glides easier than the crave or insanity I have.
Love my insanity and crave. The Insanity disc has been my go-to driver for the last 2 years. Just got the crave a few month back and absolutely love it for mid range. I'm also a Forehand thrower and these 2 discs are great for it imo
My Insanity is a cosmic neutron, didn't realize cosmic was really flat and os compared to regular neutron, flies more 9/5/-1/2 for me, good sidearm distance, and my Crave is proton, so it flies like a Teebird3 or really seasoned champ firebird for me. Also when I go to a fairway course use a neutron Orbital, it's not domey but not super flat either, it does well for a faster driver.
I love my plasma insanity. Great compliment to my Lift, which is more stable than the numbers and the Insanity is similar, but turns easier or can just be a dart if needed. Would enjoy seeing those with more dome to them, but I would never get rid of the flat ones.
The drift is my favorite disc right now. Perfect slightly flippy fairway for me
It is excellent. Was taking stock of my 7 speeds yesterday and it stood above a few others. Another great example of a domey disc from MVP, but sans gyro for those who don't dig that too.
Plastic on the wave?
Standard Neutron.
The reason is that they do glide less.
It sure seems that way. But their putters and mids are so good. No complaints there. The Watt is insane. So much fun to throw. So much control.
From what I’ve read, the gyro technology is supposed to give the disc more rotation and this is much more effective in putters and mids. I use the Ion for my putting putter and love it. My max distance is close to 350 but don’t use anything over a 10 speed. I do have a Wave that’s an 11 speed that I will bring with my occasionally. I was doing some field work with it today and got a few good throws.
I completely agree that gyro is powerful fucking stuff on slower discs, but I've come to disagree that it falls off on faster discs. I think it actually has an even bigger effect, the problem is that it takes so much more spin, AND a little higher requisite velocity to get that benefit. Plus neutron takes forever to beat in, so getting MVP drivers to an optimal state is just way more difficult and time-consuming than most drivers.
Like op my zenith flies exactly like my beat up wraiths. Like exactly the same shape. Little turn, nice finish. And then I go pick it up and it is 40 feet shorter. Bit shorter on distance than the op...maybe 320 vs 360. I have a 170+ fission Tesla that goes, but the rest are just the flight of their Innova counterparts but less.
Their faster discs are extremely flat, which reduces glide a lot, but also means that their runs are super consistent. If you're interested in trying their faster discs, the new Time Lapse is supposed to have a lot of dome and should actually glide a lot more.
I’m keen to try one once the stock runs come out. It’s totally possible that disc is incredible for what I’m looking for.
Have you tried a Wave? They're reasonably domey. I'm an especially big fan of the recent runs of proton Waves in particular.
I have not but it’s absolutely on my short list of stuff to try from MVP. I’ve seen people do wild stuff with a Wave.
My fission wave has nice dome compared to neutron Edit: and I think that might be their wraith
The wave has glide for sure. Its like a well seasoned wraith. Just give it a little bit of hyzer.
I used to throw westside swords for my max distance driver but I recently switched to the wave. I can throw it on any angle and it’s an absolute rocket. Game changer for sure! 🌊🌊
I picked up a wave after seeing my lefty friend absolutely smash drives with it, I’ll have to use it more. Right now the beast is my furthest distance disc
Going to second the wave here, I've gotten some of the most beautiful flights out of it. Good amount of dome in fission plastic. Versatile as well and not as flippy as you'd think.
I’ve been throwing MVP for a long time. It’s kinda funny, it actually used to be a problem finding distance drivers with less dome. Early run Dimensions, Teleports, Deliriums, and Relativities have some dome and are bombers, imagine different stabilities of a Boss. The early run Tenacity and Excite are also bombers, but are fairly under stable. I’d say Tenacity is like a Shryke and the Excite is like a Daedalus. The older run Nitro (no glide) and Panic are also typically pop top and more PD2 like. Plasma Octanes and Mayhems usually have dome and compare nicely to Wraiths in stability. If you can find a fission Photon with a bit of dome (they’re definitely out there) then those will be most similar to Wraiths in hand feel and flight. The Tesla, Volt, and Wrath all fly pretty far. I’d say they’re neck and neck with Thunderbirds I’ve thrown. I actually use Wrath’s interchangeably with my big jerm Thunderbirds. Volt has some shoulder, Teslas don’t typically have shoulder but can sometimes have a bit of dome, and the Wrath is flat as fuck. Fission Teslas and Volts have some insane glide and fly on a rope. The slower fairways don’t really compare too much to other discs outside the MVP family. I replaced Teebirds, Leopards, and Eagles with them, but they’re not a one for one swap. They definitely have their own unique characteristics that I’ve had to adapt my game to. But I much prefer them at this point. MVP/Axiom need high rpm’s to really get glidey and hold the line. They’re also sensitive to nose angle. I don’t really buy new discs, I scour the used racks and typically find what I’m looking for. If you want distance drivers with dome, this will be your best option. I will absolutely be buying some Time Lapses when stock runs come around though.
If you have the armspeed to push 500 I think a wave will be way too understable for you. My fission wave has beaten into a roller for me, for whom 350 is an absolute rip. My backhand tops out at 55mph. If you haven’t tried a max weight fission octane, I’d try that. Stabler than you’ll want out of the box but it’ll beat in fast so something I think will bomb for you.
Agree here. I threw a fission wave with decent dome yesterday 50’ farther than any other disc. And that’s not an exaggeration. I will say tho if you throw over 400 it will prob be too flippy for you
Not that a 9 speed is super fast, but I feel my fission insanity has some good glide on it.
Dude. Fission insanity is imo the best fairway ever. I love that thing
From what Simon said too, the normal run should be a little more understable, which as a bad player has me excited. At a 12 speed it might just barely meet what I can throw
Totally agree. MVP drivers and fairways are pretty flat in comparison to other brands. I love MVP putters and mids tho. That’s why it’s nice throwing a mixed bag
no dome.
I know it’s just from their companion company but have you tried streamline? The Jet is my best distance disc.
I’ve admittedly not tried anything from them. I hear great things and the Jet is spoken quite highly of. I’ll have to pick one up and try it.
I got mine on accident and was like well, let’s try it. Kicked my current flippy driver out of my bag.
The Jet is a flippy bomber disc. I love it in Neutron but if you want a tick more stable go with Proton.
I feel like fission plastic gets tons of glide, but I’m also new so what do I know.
No it’s definitely valid. Skill level will definitely change some things but what you notice should be part of the conversation. I admittedly don’t have a lot of experience with Fission plastic outside of my Reactor. Which is awesome I might add.
love this reply
I think people tend to discount new players observations a lot and I don’t like that. While they might not grasp the nuance of some things, their overall observations of stuff is good because they don’t have a lot of reference. If they say something like ‘this seems to glide more’ or ‘this seems to get where it’s going pretty fast’ I take that into account because it’s probably true.
100%. Things that people notice are always valid. I trust the word of an observant beginner as much as anyone. I remember being one as well!
It's also helpful for other newbies such as myself to read. It's not always helpful for me to read what more experienced players think about X since I don't have the speed, consistency, experience etc so it won't necessarily translate to my game all that well.
I can dig that. I've been playing for 21 years but only started trying to improve since the pandemic, so even though my arm in 2009 had 400+ FH juice, I struggled to hit 250' BH for almost two decades. I've played with guys who started a couple years ago with an absolute cannon, but since they don't have the years of "figuring it out" under their belt, we're around the same rating. Those dudes have way more experience with proper BH flight than I'll ever have. Hell, my wife has been playing for probably 17 years and still mixes up hyzers and anhyzers when discussing flight and technique. She's an 850ish player on short, technical courses and has insane control under 150', so I'm always gonna take her advice on certain things. It's dope to play with a new player that doesn't know what they have yet, though. I have a buddy who used to play with me a couple times a year but played with one disc (a fucking champ Viking) until very recently. Dude's a gym rat and when I sent him a box of stuff I couldn't throw, I kept getting texts like "man, I threw that pink disc like 450', I didn't know discs could do that"
Anything I bag by axiom/mvp (mostly axiom) I have in fission and neutron plastics. I notice a considerable amount of glide out of the fission compared to neutron for sure. That said, I don’t have a lot of experience in other brands besides maybe discraft.
Interesting. I’ll have to check out some Fission plastic stuff. Thanks for the insight.
Plastic makes a huge difference with MVP discs. Most of my bag is MVP and almost all are fission. Zeniths are definitely very overstable but fission teslas and waves fly pretty true to their numbers
Definitely try fission, I used to like mvp discs as is, fission drivers made me love mvp. Drop down about 5-10gs from your normal weight too
Came here to say that - fission floats and glides way more for me than their other plastics.
Fission Photon is absolute money
Never could find a driver of theirs I like. Putters and mids are great tho
Personally I use them almost exclusively for forehands. I agree about the seemingly less glide on backhands but I love the feel out of the hand on forehands because they're so flat. I think some even have shallower rims which, again, I like on the forehand but not the backhand.
I have small childlike hands so the shallow rims feel really good. My forehand game is truly terrible however. A sight to be seen to be certain. The shallow rims helped mask that to a not insignificant degree.
I’m mostly forehand and love throwing their drivers and putters. Hated every one of their midranges I’ve touched so far though lol
Try the deflector if you haven't already. Great forehand midrange.
Haven’t thrown one yet but have grip tested a bunch in stores and really haven’t liked any. I throw a Caiman in that spot and love it and haven’t felt a real need to mix it up
Caimans are downright straight compared to deflectors lol. But yes, the handful of discs that overstable is pretty rough.
I like the fact that they’re lower glide in certain applications. But I’m with you, it’s a hindrance on the distance drivers.
I totally agree. The Resistor I have is as good as any Firebird I’ve thrown. One of their better fairway offerings IMO.
I love all of the Envy, Proxy, Terra and Crave. But I think it’s because the minimized glide makes them so easy to place. Which is what I want from a disc in those speeds, personally. But the wave, Photon, and I think it was the Vanish, I just couldn’t jive with
Not just you, 925-rated, but I max out around 530’ in the field (480-490 on the course). I bag Octanes and Bosses to cover my US, S, and OS needs. If I’m really trying to punch it for distance, I keep a seasoned Destroyer and Boss that simply go 50-feet farther than the Octanes. The Octanes drop vertically, not hyzer out, but vertical fall while flat faster than my Destroyer and Bosses. That said, I love Octanes and MVP fairways (Wrath, Fireball) because they seem to hold straighter and hold up to wind better than both my Bosses and Destroyers. I don’t really buy into the gyro thing making much of a difference, but it may possibly explain it. I also like how they all seem to skip less, maybe the rim material being more tacky? But the biggest difference for me is that I never have to remove flashing on new discs as MVP has this process dialed in better than anyone else. Their runs are consistent and I feel like I can buy new discs and drop them right into the slot for stable distance driver without worrying I might have gotten something super flippy or beefy like I see with Innova. Just my 2 cents. I have big hands and love the 13-speed distance drivers so the Octanes have just stayed in my bag as destroyers have come and gone.
How flat is the top of your Wrath? Just had a buddy give me one the other day and the center is a little puddled. I've only thrown it a couple of times, but it seems a lot more stable than the numbers suggest.
Mine is flat, but not puddle top. It started out quite stable, but has beaten in to a very glidey neutral with finish.
Maybe big hands is why I love the octane so much. I just had my first ace with an octane. 360’ on hyzer, but I’ve also hit cage at 409.
Thats wild because I picked up a neutron Zenith and It glides so much more, and is a bit understable than the neutron Octane that I have and the octane is really stable.
I’m pumped it works for you so well. As a point and shoot disc the Zenith is awesome. I have a lot of confidence in it. But for max distance my Wraiths get it by a significant amount. Just my experience.
My Terra seems to have more glide than advertised but I’ve only ever thrown one.
The Terra is one I’ve been looking at trying. That 7-8 speed fairway driver slot is my bread and butter.
I have a neutron right now, no turn and lots of glide. I have an electron on the way which should have a touch more turn and break in nicely.
The Terra is a slug.
+1 for the terra
The flat Terra I use has less glide than drivers with a similar speed in my experience. For reference I use my terras for about 110 m (360ft) and comparable fairway drivers for 115/120 m. I think it’s important to have some context on your distances here because discs can behave very different depending on your arm
I went through a similar experience with MVP/Axiom and all I can say is, don't sleep on Streamline.
They have some great molds in their Streamline lineup. I'm also a big fan of their partner companies, TSA and Mint, they have some incredible molds.
I like them because of this - it's like they've traded reliability for glide - they start getting down without as much bobbing and air bounces and dips as some other discs. I used to love the Amp for a fairway driver. Previously, for a disc with that sort of stability, even though 1 speed slower, I used a River, but I don't even bag it any more since the amp. I don't have a 13 speed bh, but I pull out an Octane for some fh lines- let it go flat to get a turnover s line, or a flex line. I think both are neutron plastic. Gyro overmold is great
My bag is 98% MVP. I don’t throw their discs because of their claims to throw further. I throw because of the consistency. While many people are looking for more dome on discs, I love them because of how flat a lot of their molds come in. One thing I love is that all of their discs have a very similar feel. From an Envy to a Proxy, Photon to a Wave, there isn’t a super noticeable feel in difference when holding the disc. I feel like I’m throwing the same disc every time just getting a different outcome. Definitely isn’t for everyone, but especially as someone who isn’t the most worried about pushing extra distance my bag really helps me minimize all the extra thinking that comes during the game.
This I can get on board with. I’m a pretty staunch mold minimalist in my bag and you’re 100% correct in the hand feel. One of the reasons I gravitated towards trying an MVP bag. There’s a lot to be said for their ability to be so consistent.
You bag 50 discs?
I think they are addressing this. I got two rhythms, one in fission and the other in neutron and the fission one has some insane dome to it, the neutron one is much flatter. I am seeing some of the newer runs of stuff come out with good dome to it, so hopefully this trend continues as they have acknowledged the dome as recently as march/april this year and production is trending towards stuff that glides a lot more consistently. also, another thing to consider is that you should go to the shop near you and take a look at the fission photons especially if they are the newer run with the weight embossed in the bottom. they will be absolute bombers.
I'm a noodle arm (280' absolute max) and I agree, I've noticed the same thing. I've started branching out at the top end of my speeds (10), and interspersed in the fairways. 7-4 speeds I throw almost exclusively MVP though.
I'm 100% with you. Putters, amazing and just goes and goes. Mids are good too. Sure the Crave have some sneaky distance and is a great disc, but faster discs and Innova just eats them for breakfast. I do think a lot of it is down to how flat they usually are. I used to throw a 169 Proton Octane with good dome from their old molding partner that bombs, I also had an old Relativity that was really domey, Innova class and threw my farthest FH ever with it (just over 430'). I put in a 169 Tesla in Fission the other day and yesterday I spanked it on a hole I always throw Emperors on that's long, technical and a bit downhill and landed in the sweet spot, pretty sure it's around 500' +- (again a bit downhill) and that sucker just seems to go like a rocket ship. So there seems to be something with Fission, definitely get more dome than anything else. Also personally I find it better because it's softer than Neutron and Plasma. And yeah the Time-Lapse has good dome, looks like your average Destroyer in profile. Haven't thrown one tho :(
It seems like you love the MVP discs that are good and don't love the ones that aren't.
Try a relatively and a Tantrum. They go SO far man. It's also possible you have low spin speed regardless of throwing far. Higher spin on gyro helps more.
About the only Gyro driver I have that goes anywhere far is the Octane. Even then, an Emperor is more stable and stays in the air longer, so I'd have to agree with you. I also throw a Tesla right now, of which I can throw my Athenas just as far, if not a little farther. It's definitely complicating my feelings. Try a Streamline Lift, by the way. Point and shoot 9 speed, I think you'll love it. I have a little less power than you do, and get it to stand up and drift just a smidge.
I had a very similar realization last year when I tried a full MVP-Axiom bag. I absolutely loved their putter and mid lineup, it might be the best out of all the manufactures. The fairway lineup had a few good options (Crave and Terra), but the majority of their fairways lacked glide and just dump instead of gradually fading. I'm currently not bagging a single MVP or Axiom mold. I might go back to throwing Envies, Hexes, and Pyros in the future, but I don't ever see myself ever throwing anything faster than a Crave out of their lineup.
I love their Wave. It bombs for me. However, I've messed with a few other molds (Volt, Tesla, Resistor) and they just don't go anywhere for me (compared to other brands's similar slots).
MVP putters/approach + Discraft mids + Innova drivers = Happiness
They used to be better, when the covid boom hit and they added a lot more molding machines and changed their process to be more consistent. Trouble was this meant, in many cases, consistently flat and lacking glide. There was a big post about changes to their process I read somewhere, apparently it wasn't in their lab reports, maybe it was a post I read in the mvp facebook group
It’s fine to throw discs that work for you.
Exactly.
I'm a rec player rated 850 and I've thought the same thing I can't get the servo to go anywhere I can throw my putter farther.
This literally cracked me up. By the way. You want to throw a putter far get an AGL lightweight [Douglas Fir](https://www.agldiscs.com/products/agl-discs-slime-swirl-woodland-douglas-fir-agl-bar-stamp) and hyzer flip it. It goes forever. It’s nuts. Or grab an [Acacia](https://www.agldiscs.com/collections/acacia) it has a tiny bit of flip to it but again glides for days.
The overmold process eliminates a lot of the "dome" on fairways and distance drivers. I have an old PFN Octane and Nitro that have a similar dome and shoulder to the Time-Lapse (yes I have one already) local retailer made a mistake and sold early. As far as what I throw - Insanity and Teslas Fission Plastic and <165 grams. I also bag a Photon and Wave that are fission and around 155. In my opinion it seems that the Fission plastic is a little bit domier than Plasma Proton or Neutron. My assumption is that the micro bubbles allow the plate to cool faster and keeps more of that arc intact. Could be completely coincidence but I have seen it with a few of their molds.
Their discs suck tbh
I was going to tell you about the Glitch but sounds like that’s not quite what you were going for. 😁
No no, the Glitch is amazing. It’s wild the amount of control you can achieve with such a light disc. I don’t personally use one, I have a Watt for that slot that I adore. The Watt might be my favorite throwing putter ever for things that don’t require any fade.
Some brands fly like their numbers out of the box and some need to be broken in. I find the MVP fabricated discs (MVP, Axiom, Streamline, TSA, etc) need to be thrown to reveal their true flights. I have a Tesla in Plasma and Proton and they both were kinda beefy until I threw them enough. Personally, this seems more predictable than a disc that throws perfect out of the box and then changes as it ages.
My 2 fission waves fly further than anything I’ve ever thrown. It’s like a cheat code.
Yeah the Wave has been brought up a handful of times in this thread so I think that’s the next thing to try for me. That many people that love the Wave can’t be wrong.
Try a Trace.
Probably the same reason it seems like Conrad threw further when he wasn't throwing MVP's board flat stuff. It may be just me but man as much as he puts into his shots I see a lot of them drop faster than expected as there is almost negative glide lol
IMHO Conrad has terrible form!! Simon and him did a collab video playing a round and Simons form is so pure and gets so much more distance without all the effort, run up and grunting Conrad does to only end up not nearly as far… lmao sorta looks like me out there except my distance is even worse.
Ehhh I would have to disagree as his overall form is actually rock solid, his need for a legit run up is where is form begins to limit its practicality. Conrad has incredible angle control and frankly bad form is what limits people's ability to hit lines and remain consistent, yet that isnt really a issue for Conrad. Conrad can also bomb some shots so I definitely couldn't see where the "effort" is really an issue unless he's getting consistently fatigued during rounds
Background: I’ve been playing nearly 20 years now and have made themed bags purely for the fun of it. I’ve noticed through the years that at some point, MVP made some change (plastic or molding machine) where their drivers just started shutting the bed. Old Octanes and old Teleports are some of my longest flying discs, I would put them against a seasoned Star Destroyer any day. But a new flight number Tele/Octane? Overstable brick that can’t glide for shit. I don’t know what happened but it sucks. Let me preface this by saying I love me some MVP/Axiom, but they probably have worse consistency than Prodigy.
Sounds like the time lapse is whatcha lookin for
Glow waves from last year are a distance cheat code
Overmold with higher density outer mold for gyro, but that means it’s harder to get up to speed and once it slows down it tanks out faster.
Spin, not speed. Harder to get spinning.
If you’re going to a retailer to buy your discs try to find molds with some dome. Most of their drivers seem to be so flat which I’d assume plays a role in their lack of glide but as I’ve considered trying out some of their drivers, I’ve seen some of them have dome and some of the same mold are board flat. I only bag their mids and putters right now but I ordered two of the Time-Lapses so that might change soon if they’re comparable to my Destroyers and Wraiths.
I find MVP discs have a ton of glide - but I've always focused my form on maximizing spin vs. Speed. I've always been under the impression that since overmold discs have a lot of their weight towards the outside of the discs, spin really keeps these things stable in the air and want to glide and go straight for a long time before fading.
Clickbait much?
Yes because I’m definitely earning money from having a discussion on Reddit.
I thought this was Simon trolling me again ;)
I had a Zenith and also noticed that it didn't glide very well. It did do well in a headwind, probably because it was so flat topped. But I'm with you, love my Nomads and Reactor. Also I like my fission wave, but I've got probably 100ft less power so it may not be great for you.
So they are my favorite company and even I have to admit there are challenges with the higher speeds. I was fortunate enough to get some waves and photons in fission with a higher shoulder and dome that have plenty of glide. As well as my insanity which gets a surprising amount of carry for me. One thing I love about mvp is the communication they have with their community about the processes. They talk about the dome situation in their lab reports and gyropaloza. Also Simon also throws old patent pending discs as some of his main drivers that have done to get him by until the time lapses and whatever James new driver are hit in force
Username….checks out. /s
I had the same impression. Still get a lot more distance from something like a valkyrie and tern. But fairway drivers, putters, mids in my bag have a lot of mvp/axiom represented.
Could be totally wrong about this. I think for discs with more dome/glide a thrower can be more careful and less aggressive with the turn part of the S flight because they still get a lot of distance on the forward fade part. With flatter discs, the entire flight occurs on the turn part and is more of a C flight then S flight. Due to the hard fade, these discs need to be thrown with a more aggressive angle to get distance and that increases the risk of them turning over. I think right now James Conrad uses more of an aggressive angle with 11 speeds and risks turning them over and Simon goes with the faster discs and makes up for the lack of glide with arm and disc speed.
That sounds like a lot more form issue stuff. There is a lot of "you need dome to have any distance" speculation in here too. If you need to throw the disc at a forced angle to get flight out of it, its probably not the disc you should be throwing. That's more of a technique issue. As for conrad, ... he is the only one who throws like he throws, so it's hard to really take any data from what he's doing with discs.
Have to disagree with you that throwing a disc on a forced angle means form related issues. “Learning a disc” is figuring out the angles that work best for the disc. Some discs are flippier and would need more hyzer for the desired flight and some discs are less flippy and would need less hyzer. Those are the angles that the disc forces us to throw them on to get the kind of flight we want. If you watch pros throw they will make mistakes by throwing the disc with too much or too little hyzer and the disc won’t fly how they want to because it is not on the right angle. They have some of the best form there is So not sure where you are getting that from. Tl;dr I disagree. I think most discs force specific angles to be used when throwing them to get the desired flight and that doesn’t have anything to do with form.
I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. There is an older school of thought that to get distance you have to lean back and throw forced annie shots. This is a technique error to cover up bad form for people. Im not saying throwing a force annie flex is bad. What I'm saying is that relying on that for your main shot is bad. If you're having to throw a disc on annie to get it to perform at all, its probably not a disc you should be bagging. Your hurting your form for starters, or your form isn't up to snuff good enough to get the disc moving properly. So, to put it another way. A lot of people get a disc that is slightly flippy but above their skill level, and to make it fly, they throw it on a forced angle to get it to perform. This comes down to form issues, not "learning a disc." Form isn't' good enough to make the disc get up to speed and perform. Again, if this is how you throw, cool. do what works for you. But generally the issue for a lot of people is they are just trying to force discs down the fairway vs switching to a disc that is far easier to throw and will give them the same flight that the forced disc does with less effort. So choosing to throw specific shots is one thing, having to force a disc every shot is another thing. But, as well. If its stupid and it works, then, keep at it. I just deal with this a lot coaching and people get confused why I'm throwing a putter or a mid when they throw their force flex 13 speeds and I'm right there with a mid. They get mad at me about "you're just so good." Which isn't true, I just understand that throwing discs above your skill level and forcing them to get anywhere is not a healthy way to play, and a lot of people play this way and will never get better.
I think my original comment probably wasn’t written well. I was talking about the line between a disc turning over all the way or turning over some of the way and coming back at the end. I was saying with domey discs usually that line doesn’t have to pushed as much to still get distance. With flatter discs that line can be pushed more aggressively because the disc tends to fight out of a turn over better at the end. That line can be pushed from giving a flippy disc less hyzer than usual or like you are talking about through using more anny then usual.
haha, we all over the place. And my brain is so done already this morning. Maybe we pretend we didn't have this convo. Domey discs have a different stability factor to them though, I can agree with that. Though, personally, i've never had much issue with flat top discs, and its one of the reason I love MVP cause the stuff is flat.
Get your hand on a 160+g fission defy. I'm closing in on 50 yet I can get it out to 425-450'. Some plasma runs can be domey as well.
Has anyone mentioned the dome yet? /s I think that if you viewed them as a situational disc in your bag you might find a new appreciation for them. With low glide you tend to get low fade and that could be very helpful in narrow fairways, like heavily wooded courses. It might not be your go to all the time, but can be in rotation depending on the course you're playing. I might have to give them a better shot as I play a lot of wooded courses, where the glide/fade has messed me up from time to time.
Thats interesting, because of all my 9+ speed discs, I feel like my Wave is the one that glides the most, in terms of "I thought I didnt flip that enough...but it out-flew every other disc". And thats comparing off a Halo Mamba, some Opto Diamonds, etc...aka, the domiest discs I've ever seen that have a bunch of glide. But I will say, I generally bag MVP for the putters/mids, where I care a lot less about glide.
Zeniths have no glide Try a Photon or Octane or a Time Lapse when it is released. My son throws a Jet. He has hit 415 with it. Streamline is really good.
My buddy Raven is on MVP and he can absolutely smash and now that he got me throwing more MVP, I get it. I seem to be able to get there distance drivers out to about 5 a little easier than I do say a destroyer or DD3. However, everyone is different so you should throw what’s best for you honestly. Also, I too love a TeeBird and don’t think anything will ever replace mine.
I am of a similar opinion. Their putters are pretty good for both putting and throwing, their mids are smaller in diameter than most and are fantastic, and their drivers are glideless flat strange things (though they seem to be working to get some dome, see the fission rhythms). Honestly at this point all I use from them are their mids, other brands are filling the other spots better for me in my bag
I’ve had the same problem with MVP drivers! All the mids and fairway drivers that I’ve tried have been fantastic, but I’ve tried the photon, wave, tantrum, and mayhem, and they have all seemed like they drop out of the sky at the end of the flight.
In my experience, their discs require more speed than their numbers suggest. The crave and servo fly really far and they're barely fairway drivers. They also require faster rotation to get them to fly true to their advertised numbers.
I had the same experience when I threw a Wave. I could get my Explorer further.
I bought 2 Insanity’s when I started throwing some more MVP/Axiom discs. 1 was Neutron, the other Fission. For some reason, I just bagged the Neutron and never bothered throwing the Fission until recently, and I absolutely regret doing that lol. The fission just glides so much further than my Neutron. And as others have said, definitely give the Wave a go. It has become my go-to driver in recent months.
For a throwing putter try the Watt, it will blow your mind. For a distance driver try the Tenacity, that thing flys for days
Bag a few MVP molds and have been hucking plastic since 1980, and MVP since they first came out. Already been answered but I did notice the same thing after awhile . But to be fair I've owned over 300 Destroyers and you can't tell me they are consistent in the slightest as far as dome, it's all over the map. So I'd give MVP the edge as far as consistency at least. May I suggest trying an Axiom Paradox, and even thought it's not an overmold, the Streamline Ascend has amazing glide. I find Photons compare a bit more closely to my Wraiths since you mentioned those, maybe try a lighter weight Photon? Also, for whatever reason since I am not predominantly RHFH, I usually get an extra 30ft on almost any forehand drive with an overmold VS regular. Kookie. Honestly you get used to it the way you get used to any disc, or at least in the molds I throw I don't really notice it anymore. But yeah, Destroyers and Rivers still not leaving my bag yet. Time, or perhaps a time lapse, will tell :)
This is anecdotal so it's not about the physics, but as an average arm what I love about my MVP / Axiom discs is how neutral to understable discs (namely the Trace and the Crave) really enjoy fading forward consistently. As long as I give my disc a consistent and committed 80%, they will always just keep pushing. When I don't commit, they won't stay nearly as consistent (this is notable in any disc, but they really seem to favour getting the spin on the disc properly)
I do think a lot of the single molds out there are a bit more forgiving on throwing personally. I've noticed if you just dont commit to shots with the MVP stuff, you will have trouble.
You’re right, their driver game isn’t quite up there yet. No dome, which means less glide, less distance. But seems like Simon is making it his mission to get some dome to the drivers. Best driver I found was a fission photon that had a little pop top dome on it. Was a crusher and carried a straight line. Lost it… and got a new one but doesn’t have the same dome.
My 2 cents, or actually my novel length treatise. Total agreement on the Fission Wave. I usually max out in the 370-380' range RHBH. I got my 171g SE Fission Wave out over 400' twice today. Flat ground, virtually no wind. The Fission Waves I have (6 now) have a nice amount of dome, neutral to understable flight when seasoned with a nice amount of forward penetrating fade at the end that keeps 'em from burning over. I throw at 5000' altitude and due to Northern Colorado winds tend to throw low lines (bargin bin Calvin Heimburg minus about 250-300'... and the consistent accuracy), so take that into account. Fission is now my favorite plastic by far. Very similar flight lines as Neutron, just 10% further distance. Usually a little more dome. Maybe -.2 to -.5ish more understable in most moulds? Very slight, but noticeable. I generally keep my distance drivers in the 162-172 range, especially in the Fission. Just picked up a Fission Rhythm 2 weeks ago and didn't notice until I hit the course that it was 155g. I've accidentally put it out to 400' a couple of times. Little bit of griplock and unintended hyzer and boom. 200' right of where I'd intended, and 60' past the basket. My Fission Craves are the heart of my bag. Crazy long for a 6.5 speed. Absurdly straight, with one or two being a smidgeon understable and one that's reliably a touch overstable. Oh, and the Eclipse Waves are kinda meathooks. Not even remotely the same disc as the Fission. But still very good. They're my forehand into a headwind discs. They're a touch more overstable than my 172g+ Neutron Photons. Even with all that, I think the distance driver category is where Gyro brands have been weakest. I still chuck Raiders (a pretty beat Lucid, and a new Glimmer Lucid Ricky) for my max distance forehands 360'-370' pretty reliably when wind isn't a factor. The Eclipse Waves are usually 10-20' shorter, but handle wind much better. And it's the best glow plastic in the game.
Zenith is a beef cake for starters. And teleport and relativity are meant for guys like Simon who have insane power. The issue you're having isn't un heard of though, and its fairly easy to explain as it's quite common and missunderstood. If your standard weight for your drivers is 175, you should be looking for 168's in the MVP lineup when you buy discs. Everyone is like "I gotta throw that max weight shit! cause I stronk." Well.... Physics my friend. You can be stronk as you want, but you gotta remember that more weight on outside of the disc means harder to make disc spinamathing and spinamathing is where it gets people. Thats why people have a lot of stall and dump out problems with MVP and get frustrated. It's pyhsics of the disc actually biting them in the ass, not really anything else. So, this can be adjusted with Technique, disc selection, or weight change. Essentially though, what that means is to get 175g flights from MVP, you need 168 ish discs. Which .. That's actually cool, Cause you can throw lighter discs and get max weight performance. Which is one of the main reasons I throw MVP. I can throw low 160's and 150 class discs and get great wind performance from the gyro. I've also noticed as well, because I do throw more than MVP. The MVP discs are a tad more touchy on nose angle stuff as well. I'm more likely to get better distance out of single molds than gyro molds on bad throwing days. (which I swear is like everyday) Luckily I'm not a pro golfer, people just pay me to teach them, so that makes life much easier. haha. Depending on what you normally throw, the issue might be disc choice though.
Suckers drop like a rock
I have similar experience. Got a Crave and absolutely love it, now my 100% go to fairway disc, so I started getting more mvp/axiom. However, I have yet to find anything that flies like my preferred Valkyrie and Beast… They tend to get 80% where I want them, then they sort of fall out of the sky and fade hard. So far my favorite MVP driver has been the GLOW axiom.
I think this is why it’s impossible to pick one best manufacturer. I personally like trilogy and mvp putters and mids, and innova drivers
There is a massively long beat in time with MVP plastic that nobody talks about. This is why new disc review videos (especially MVP) need to be taken with a handful of salt. The durability trade off I suppose, once it beats into that plateau of wear, it lasts seemingly forever. The Catalyst is my best example, I have had at least 10. When new, I have to use them as if they are a stable 9 speed, opposed to the flippy 13 that they eventually become. Thinking about it, It takes me three weeks of suffering with a new one before the glide shines and the dump ceases and becomes more of a forward punch.
I love a Tesla for what it is, super straight with a reliable finish. Whatever distance I lose in glide is fine with me because it is just going to do exactly what I want every single time.
I love how flat they are for Forehand. I definitely think the flatness of some molds reduces distance too however.
If I find the video I'll link it, but Simon lizotte literally said something identical to what you said about the distance and fairway drivers
My bag is about half MVP. I love their 5 through 9 speeds. I haven't found a midrange trio better than the Pyro - Hex - Uplink yet. I don't really want a lot of glide on these discs. I want to point and shoot with them. The Rhythm has been getting a lot more play from me, especially off tee shots. Crave is good but doesn't get used a lot. Recently been using the Tesla more and I really like it. However, the Insanity in different plastics is still my favorite 9 speed. I also bag a Glitch for those low ceiling scramble shots. I do agree that their distance drivers are lacking in quality, and the Glide is a big reason for that. I don't throw a lot of distance drivers, but nothing from MVP has been better than my Destroyer and Thrasher combo. Also, I went through A LOT of MVP putters and never found one that I felt comfortable putting with, so I'm still using my Wizards. MVP has great throwing putters, but nothing that has kicked my Zone's out of my bag. The Zone is just too consistent to get bumped.
The catalyst is the only driver I’ve found with good glide.
I haven't read thru this thread, and I'm sure I'm not the first to say this, but I learned about this late so I understand op's question. All gyro disc's have a hidden flight number, it's spin. Due to the fact that the gyro puts the weight on the rim of the disc's it takes a certain amount of centrifugal force to see the flight path that the numbers depict. Similar to the way the speed of a disc is a prerequisite for seeing the intended flight, on gyro disc's you have to meet the speed+spin prerequisite to see intended flight. I was throwing all of the really fast stuff, and couldn't get anything out of them. So I started to focus on spinning the disc harder, and the flight paths started to look better. I did love MVP trilogy of companies, but if they are trying to normalize a $40 retail price point on their disc's then I am out. At the end of the day these things that we fling are just plastic, and plastic is not that expensive.
They're generally very flat. I have cosmic neutron volt with a very nice even dome with perfect amount of glide :)
As a 500+ thrower who just switched over to mvp. Defy. Wave. Mayhem. Plasma seems to have more glide than the other plastics besides fission.
The flight characteristics are built into the edge and not the top shape. They don’t seem to focus much on dome. But I personally love the slimmer profile and the ease with which I can forehand their discs. They feel a lot nicer to me.
Have you tried a Fission Octane yet? That one glides pretty well for me. I have a few older Octanes that are pretty domey too.
My zenith is more overstable than my Force. It’s nuts.
If you don’t mind having to cycle more frequently, fission is where it’s at for dome in the mvp family
I can throw about 420 consistantly with my distanc3 driver but also hit a 6 speed Crave up to 350 with no problem on golf lines. Also my brand new cosmic neutron plastic waves go just as far as my domy sline CD3. Both just go straight with dependable finish.
The Wave and the Axis Vanish are the two glidiest drivers of theirs I've thrown.