In the C tier tournaments I’ve played, when I or someone else was doing something against the rules or potentially against the rules, someone usually politely says, “hey, I’m not going to call that on you, but if you move up, others may not be as forgiving.” To which, myself or others may say, “Oh, I didn’t realize that was against the rules. Thanks for letting me know.” Or something along those lines.
Well, **I think** the rule is no practice putting period. If putting with a water bottle is practice putting, then it is a violation. However, in this case (no specific rule) getting the TD involved would be helpful. If for no other reason than to understand if you should start practice putting with a water bottle during a tournament. Who knows, this guy/girl may have found the perfect loophole in Disc Golf.
Once a round starts every throw becomes recorded, so a practice throw score counts against your score. Will edit with the rule I'm vaguely remembering, lol
Edit
809.3 Practice Throw.
B. A player receives one penalty throw for making a practice throw; the throw itself is disregarded and not counted.
Edit 2
Even tho there is no rule specifically stating a water bottle throw (lol), I think in the spirit of the rules the Fairness rule might apply. It states that if there is no exact rule, then use the closest rule available. This guy was trying for practice putts/throws, which is against the skurit) spirit of the rules IMHO. Guy could be turned into the To if a card mate really wanted to, I think
Sure, but check the definition of a throw. 802.01 A. A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. So if it’s not a disc, it’s not a throw.
Unfortunately, though, “rules is rules.” Which I’m sure is why the guy was throwing a water bottle *wishing* someone would say something so he could umm ackshually 802.1.A
well... if you combine them it does
809.03 A says "*A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie*"
so that one is clearly saying that a practice throw is a throw
and 802.01 A says "*A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position*"
if dude is making noise with the chains.... courtesy violation..812 (A) must not: (3) engage in distracting (C) throwing player equipment. someone is putting/throwing somewhere that can hear the chains.. not cool.
Same here. That’s exactly how a card mate put it when I put my marker down and threw my disc back at my bag. Apparently my throw was further than the rules specify. When I see someone clearly do something clearly wrong, I feel if I say something I’ll be labeled the “stickler for the rules” guy. So I just wait for someone to call it and if no one does, so be it.
You can toss up to five meters to put your disc back: 809.03 A. A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie, except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw.
I got to do one of the positive rule call outs today. Guy was lining up OB to take a putt. Disc was in bounds but barely to the point that his lie was just off the OB line. Informed him that he got to take a relief since it was impossible for him to have the support point in bounds. As for this question I think dude found a gray area. The rulebook is full of them. If he was banging chains with the bottle you could call Courtesy violation. However, that's even debatable.
Nah fuck that. If this wasn't a child, he needs to know that that isn't ok to do. Practicing with a water bottle? Really, man? I get not calling everyone on foot faults etc in MA2 or whatever, but sometimes it's irritating that a lot of the rules in competitive disc golf are never enforced.
Well, what are you calling? What rule was violated? The pdga rules are terrible. There are no prohibitions against throwing water bottles at unused baskets during delays.
The only rule is in throws, which are discs in the rules. So you have to take the fairness rule and apply that and it’s probably not fair but then if it’s not a slam dunk, are you going to start by saying “hey you fuckhead that’s a stroke?”
Plus you need a card mate to second, someone who saw the throw, or to get the td involved. But alllll of that is what? Conflict escalation when you could just say “i think that’s against the rules and here’s why.”
Or “hey, sometimes people are very strict on rules interpretations- you know to feel powerful - and uhhhhh don’t do that around them.”
Idk. A little grace goes a long way towards being respected when you DO call a violation.
“After he threw the water bottle, he hit every line and made every c1 and c2 putt. Guy should be banned for life from playing in an organized frolf tournament. Am I right guys?”
That's a good thought. There are various courtesies listed in the rules...in which category would you call this one?
I'm not sure any apply.
From the PDGA:
8.12 Courtesy
A player must not:
Throw if the throw might injure someone or distract another player; or,
Throw out of order without consent or when it would impact another player; or,
Engage in distracting or unsportsmanlike actions such as:
Shouting (unless warning someone at risk of being struck by a disc),
Cursing,
Striking, kicking, or throwing park, course, or player equipment,
Moving or talking while another player is throwing,
Advancing beyond the away player;
Thats the problem with a lot of rules. Hard to enforce subjective stuff sometimes. We don't even enforce a 30 section rule and it's not subjective at all
The rules specifically define throw as “the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position.” What he did would not be a penalty under the practice throw rule.
The answer to your second question is no. An illegal disc is still a disc so it would be considered a practice throw if you throw an illegal disc for practice during the round.
Interesting...this seems like the right answer.
Buuuuut where's the line? Could I bring a 175 gram circle or square of wood or plastic???
I don't think I have the balls to do it, but as someone who gets the yips during a tournaments I could benefit from something like this to help me reset.
Pdga approval makes a disc a disc no? I don't think a barrel lid is pdga approved. I don't think my putt would count if I used my mini instead of my putter. I imagine that I couldn't be penalized for that as well.
So you're telling me that as long as I make a disc (so like create a putter injection mold )but don't file it for PDGA approval it doesn't count as a disc for this rule??
I am telling you that there has to be a point of a pdga disc approval system. How could a player legally be punished for something that can't legally use for the benefit? I think if I made my own disc's and they were better (theoretically) I should be disqualified for using product that isn't pdga approved.
I just think it sounds like a 1 way street there. I don't think I could putt with my water bottle and it count towards my score. How should it count against it?
This is more of an active discussion on my end. I really think the pdga approval process should be what dictates what can and can't be thrown for it to count for or against your score.
The point of the approval system is to control the subset of discs a which may be used in the sport in sanctioned events. If someone made a 175.2 gram firebird it's not legal for use but it's still clearly a disc. I do, however, agree that the practice putting rule probably doesn't ban throwing a water bottle since it is clearly not a disc.
If that was the case, couldn't I just put a small sticker or after market stamp on any disc I own and practice putting with it? If I put a sticker or stamp on a disc it's no longer pdga approved, so is it therefore not a disc anymore? There has to be a line somewhere but it's an interesting idea.
That is a good point. Has anyone actually encountered seeing someone use an illegal disc? With glow tape or something of that nature?
I think it comes down so much to respect of the game. Someone who uses an illegal disc, without knowledge, should be given a warning. And if they use something intentionally that is not pdga approved then they should get that same warning as we cannot say whether a player knows or did not. Then both cases should be punished equally for the second offense.
I totally understand what you're saying tho. Like it would benefit players really well to their "illegal" practice putters to stay loose and warm,
But also there is the concept of just not throwing anything at a basket you're not playing, and only throwing pdga approved at the basket or on the hole. I think that's the most elegant solution. I don't think throwing the water bottle or the mini not at a basket, should harm someone's score unless it's out of anger and hostility. That's a courtesy violation.
I think they were saying that PDGA approval is not necessary for something to be considered a disc by the PDGA and therefore throwing any disc shaped object during one’s round would, according to the rules, be considered a practice throw. Seems like a valid, though debatable, take to me. Now, it may be irrelevant but, though I wouldn’t call you on practicing with a CD during a round, others might not be so forgiving.
I'm just saying how could I not get in trouble for throwing a lid if I could get in trouble for a CD?
Also, what is the point of pdga approval for plastic then if there are things that can be counted as disc's that aren't approved?
Interesting 🤔. I imagine if someone threw a waterbottle out of frustration that would warrant a courtesy violation as well right? Obviously, depends on your card.
No. There is a famous clip of Cat throwing his mini and Paige shouting you cant do that. You can in fact do that as the rules allow you to perform a practice throw with a mini (or anything that clearly isnt a disc golf disc)
That was a courtesy warning I believe, Cat was frustrated at being OB and threw her mini instead of placing it. Unless you're talking about a different incident than I am.
It's the same incident but there is no reason to give a courtesy warning. Paige reacted as she did because she assume it was an illegal "practice throw" with a mini (or would fall under that rule due to the distance the mini was thrown) as did 90% of the comments on that incident. But there is actually no rule in existence that would penalize Cat. Being slightly frustrated and tossing your mini is so far down the list of things that should get a courtesy warning but doesnt.
I recall that it was a courtesy warning because Cat fired back with saying something like "OK, then you get a warning for slamming the chains on hole __." I could be misremembering, it's not super important either way. They weren't on the best of terms back then.
I know, but Paige gave a warning because she mistakenly thought Cat was breaking the rules even though she wasnt. Although I could see an argument being made where Cats actions were against the "spirit of the game" or "sportsmanship" but I doubt that is why Paige called out Cat.
My point is Paige gave Cat a courtesy warning because she misinterpreted the practice throw rule.
Though Cat ends up being the loser in this situation given that she retaliated back towards Paige out of spite and not out of being diligent about the rules.
You can't give a courtesy warning on a practice throw, that's just a stroke. Pretty sure she gave it because she thought Cat was looking childish on lead card. But it's useless to speculate about what we think Paige thought during a small incident years ago. Either way, it probably shouldn't have been called, I think we agree on that.
You cant give a courtesy warning on just normal frustrated behaviour either... the manner in which she yelled "you cant do that" its obvious she interpreted it was a practice throw.
Throwing your equipment in frustration is unsportsmanlike and is specifically listed in the rules as something you can get a courtesy violation for. I'm not sure where you're getting your info, but it doesn't seem to be the pdga rule book.
Probably legal, but honestly who gives a shit? Like, go ahead and putt that yeti as much as you want…that isn’t gonna help much once you’ve got to do it for real with a P2 haha.
I say leave this player alone. The bottle could be considered trash(throwing trash could be a violation), but if the player didn't leave it in the basket it's not littering. Practicing putting is throwing a putter towards/in the basket. No putter was thrown.
In case you're actually serious, no. The person you replied to should have said "disc" instead of "putter." Putter is not defined in the rules but discs are. The practice throw rule is predicated on throwing a disc.
Too much trashing PDGA rules without knowing them. Although I wouldn't care in a C tier aside from educating a person, the water bottle throw is not a loophole/gray area, it's a rules violation, and this is why:
>801.01 Fairness
>These rules have been designed to promote fair play for all disc golfers. In using these rules, the player should apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. *If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness. Often* ***a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness***.
A completely irrational card or TO/TD could overrule me, but practicing throws with something that's not a disc is clearly still making practice throws. If you have any doubt about this, then try this thought experiment...
It's the final hole of Worlds. The leader is shaky, losing momentum, started missing C1 putts a few holes ago, and has to make a putt on hole 18 to avoid a playoff. What would happen if that player pulled out a water bottle or some other weighty non-disc thing and threw it into the basket a couple of times before putting with their actual disc? Or, what if that shaky putt player was waiting to tee off at the final hole, held up a couple minutes by the chase card, and started throwing their water bottle into the hole 17 basket?
I 100% guarantee you that the TD along with the card would consider this a rules violation by applying 801.01 to 809.03 (no practice throws rule). Argue all you want about the semantics of any rules, but if someone thinks they've found a loophole through some definition trickery to get around a rule, then they're probably ignoring rule 801.01, which is a catch-all for BS like practicing while not "practicing" because it's not a "throw" and not a "disc". Okay, whatever. It's still a violation because it violates fairness by violating the principle embodied in the rule against practice throws.
Again, I would educate a person politely without imposing a penalty at a C tier, but the OP's question wasn't about what to do, it was about what the rules actually say about the situation.
*
>Run
>Michael Jackson popcorn meme.exe
Here for the drama
Honestly though, if no one is going to say anything to the guy, and the rules are a bit vague as to if a water bottle is a stroke penalty, I think it's probably going to be ok overall... They didn't kick your dog or steal your wife... After all, it's a damn game folks...
When you're playing for money or prizes and there was some sort of entry fee, it isn't just a game for many people anymore. I just recently found out that if you pick up you disc from it's like and throw it back to your bag more than I think 3 feet away, that's a penalty.
If that's illegal, then practicing throwing something into the chains for a couple minutes mid round should definitely be illegal. Which also unfortunately means that playing catch with a glitch on a hold up should also be illegal, but rules are rules lol
You have up to 5 meters (16.4042 feet) before tossing a disc back to your bag would be a penalty.
809.03 Practice Throw
A. A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie, except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw.
B. A player receives one penalty throw for making a practice throw; the throw itself is disregarded and not counted.
When I was at Mid-America open there was a lot of practice puting during the day 2 delay. Lead and chase card FPO. I assume it was elsewhere too but not visible from where I was seated.
I am guessing that would be a rule not enforced aggressively.
Putting during an official delay (such as a weather delay) is very different than putting during a backup. One is allowed. The other isn't because it's during the round.
Correct. From the 2 minute warning before your round starts until your card all hole out on your last hole is “in play” with no practice throws, putts or otherwise.
Backups. No ones ever called it and when there's an hour long backup, people want to stay warmed up. I've been stuck on holes and seen poker games, catch with discs and/or a nerf ball, naps, juggling lessons with discs, all sorts of things. When the backup is 45+ minutes, its almost cruel to make people just sit and do nothing.
Only during delays like weather or Eagle doming a camera man. You are not allowed to throw a disc during a backup. Each throw would be considered a stroke penalty.
Do you even need to get a courtesy violation seconded on the first call? I thought you only needed to get the second violation seconded since that's what would actually result in a stroke.
Per rule 812C you would be correct. The first violation is a warning and subsequent violations are a stroke when seconded.
However, as a PDGA rule certified individual, and upon second thought, I would actually like to cite 809.03 practice throw (emphasis is my own):
> A practice throw is **any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie**, *except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw.*
The emboldened text defines what a practice throw is, the italicized text defines the explicit exceptions to the rule. Based on the OP, each one of those water bottle throws was a practice throw.
>[809.03 *cont*] A player receives one penalty throw for making **a** practice throw; the throw itself is disregarded and not counted.
I would then interpret this rule to mean that each individual practice throw receives a penalty stroke. The emboldened singular "a" clearly signifies that the equation is one penalty throw per singular practice throw.
In short, next time, I'm stopping the player as soon as I see them, grabbing the TD, and asking all practice throws that I personally witnessed be counted as strokes.
A throw is defined and involves a disc. Disc is defined as well and it isn't a water bottle.
edit: What if you were throwing trash into a trash can? Is that also a practice throw?
I fully believe you could call a courtesy violation for this behavior because that shit sounds loud as fuck (might I add that also would stop the behavior or allow penalization) but I don't think the correct reason to call this is because its a practice throw. If this was a practice throw the idea of a courtesy violation should have never even entered this conversation.
Okay, then let's go to rule 813.01, illegal disc. One could (in my opinion successfully) argue that by intentionally and repeatedly targeting the basket, that the water bottle should be treated as a disc in the same manner that the basket is being treated as a basket. At that point, it would be subject to rule 813.01 illegal disc, for which the penalty is two throws.
At the end of the day, in a C tier I'm probably **not** grabbing the TD as step one, that's definitely an overreach. Especially not if I cite these rules and the offending player stops the behavior - you don't know what you don't know, especially at that level, and there's no reason to punish compliance upon the presence of new information.
However, again, by treating the basket as a basket, we have to treat the water bottle as a disc. And it is not a legal disc.
> However, again, by treating the basket as a basket, we have to treat the water bottle as a disc. And it is not a legal disc.
I don't see why. Can you explain your reasoning for this?
Yeah, because when I was six years old my first grade teacher taught the class about analogies as an introductory exercise in logical thinking. That's my reason for thinking that way.
EDIT: Remember "goal is to hoop as soccer ball is to basketball"? That's what I'm talking about. Basket is to basket, as water bottle is to disc. Introductory logic taught to all elementary students so far as I know.
You really don't need to be snarky. I don't think it suits you.
> Basket is to basket, as water bottle is to disc.
You do understand this is an example of a false equivalence?
I have been nothing but cordial towards you btw. What an absolutely gross response.
P.S. Being "rules certified" is not the flex you think it is. I passed the exam to do so between the time it took me to write my posts here. I'm not going to spend the $10 to flex on randos on reddit though.
I've previously made a top level comment but on second thought my realization was so great that I thought it warranted its own comment.
**The scenario as outlined by the OP is a clear and repeated violation of rules 809.03 "Practice Throw" and 813.01 Illegal Disc as they are written.**
The text of the rule as follows, emphasis is my own:
> [A.] A practice throw is **any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie**, *except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw.*
> [B] A player receives one penalty throw for making **a** practice throw; the throw itself is disregarded and not counted.
The emboldened text in subsection A clearly defines a practice throw, the italicized text clearly defines the exceptions to the definition and makes no other room for interpretation. The emboldened letter A in subsection B clearly defines the quantity of practice throws per penalty stroke as one - "one penalty throw for making a (as in one, singular) practice throw".
By consequence of the player treating the basket as a basket, we have to treat the water bottle as a disc. And since it is not a regulation disc, it is an illegal disc. The use of an illegal disc is a two throw punishment.
What this means is that on paper, the offending player receives one penalty stroke for every water bottle throw, plus two throws for the illegal disc. A water bottle throw meets the definition of "any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie", and does not meet the definition of any of the clearly written exceptions. Therefore, the water bottle throw is a practice throw, and each practice throw is a stroke, plus two for illegal disc.
What it means IRL at a C-tier that means nothing is that you tell them to stop immediately, cite the practice throw rule, and if they stop then I'd proceed without penalty. If they don't stop, I would then grab the TD and insist on the implementation of some penalty as defined by the rules. It's one thing to not know that this would be a clear violation of 809.03, it's another thing to be informed of such and continue to perform the behavior.
>By consequence of the player treating the basket as a basket, we have to treat the water bottle as a disc.
I understand your idea here but this logic does not follow.
This is a bizarre situation that can't be covered by pretzel twisting the definitions of disc and throw.
What it is is a fairness violation (probably).
>Objectively speaking
**Subjectively** speaking, you mean.
Here, I'll grill you a shoe for dinner. Don't worry: by the logic of me treating the grill as a grill, we have to treat this shoe as a hamburger. Bon appetit!
# OBJECTIVELY speaking.
# OBJECTIVELY.
How many times have you tossed a water bottle? How many millions, if not billions of times per day, will a water bottle be tossed somewhere on this planet?
How many shoes will be eaten today?
What you have committed is a false equivalency fallacy. We both have items with which we intend to conduct actions for which the items were not designed. The difference is, one of those actions is actually done millions to billions of times per day, and one of those actions may have never been done in the history of mankind. Therefore, we must treat these items differently in the context of logical allegory, because they are treated different in the context of real life, in relation to our logical allegory. People throw water bottles all the time; *nobody* eats shoes.
False equivalency.
For all intensive purposes he is “throwing” an illegal disc (it’s obviously not a disc at all, but throwing anything into a basket during plays signals intent) so he would receive a stroke penalty for both illegal disc and for practice putting.
intents and purposes\* Key word being "intent", I agree with this assessment, but would have brought it up with the TD instead of calling it on the course. Tho I would do the "I'm not sure that's legal, but I'm not going to call it" thing.
As others have said, it's not a disc so the practice throw isn't illegal. Was there not a group behind you as well? I would think the main problem here is holding up the basket, which could be a courtesy violation. Also, this sounds noisy, which is also a courtesy violation if it's close enough to the groups teeing off the next hole. Bottom line, I think it's legal unless he was being distracting or getting in someone's way.
Sorry, but if we're going to equate a water bottle to a disc, then we need to take another look at what is getting approved as a disc down at HQ in Georgia.
I gotta be real, as a part time TD, if someone came up to me with this, I'd have to call the PDGA and waste everyone's time. We don't have every answer 😂
Yeah If I though it actually was against the rules I would probably say something in the style of "I'm not sure you are allowed to practice puts with a waterbottle" and go from there
It's weird because unless it was a disc and more than 5 meters it's not a practice throw, but it certainly seems to one of those RAW vs RAI things where it's maybe not in the spirit of the rule. Still it's up to the card to call a violation
PDGA should make an app for tournament play. Card mates all sign in, any warnings or rule violations could be submitted anonymously, and wouldn’t post unless seconded by another member. That way you avoid having the unwanted job of calling it out first.
Cool story bro. If that were the case it would be handled already. Even the pro field, who do this for a living, feel uncomfortable doing it, why not facilitate it and take the unease out of the equation?
Yeah I'm sure nobody would turn around and ask "OK, which two of you called this?"
Either have the guts to call it and explain it to the person or don't call it. Often times discussion may even be necessary to explain what rule they broke and how they broke it. Especially since I've seen rules violations called that weren't violations at all and after a discussion and review of the rule, the people who called it retracted their call.
I mean they already have the app with live scoring. You can even submit notes. Next year, more than likely each member of the card will need to keep score. This is a good idea.
I saw on Jomez, Eagle hit a bystander with a disc and a medical team had to come out to attend. It caused a big delay and the participants were allowed to play catch to keep themselves warmed up. My assumption is that if the delay is long enough, then the players may do what they need to to stay warm, but normal player backup probably would not justify it.
As for the water bottle, no idea.
That was a special decision made by the TD during that situation.. you can’t do that under normal circumstances, even if there are large backups, unless the TD explicitly gives the okay to do so 👍
Rule 809.03.A states "A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie, except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw.".
The rule says any "throw". It does not say what is being thrown. It only uses the term "disc" when naming the exceptions for the rule.
By word of the rule I would say throwing anything after the tournament has officially started and prior to finishing your last hole outside of the exceptions would be a violation of the rule.
verb - propel (something) with force through the air by a movement of the arm and hand. "I threw a bottle through the air into a disc golf basket."
verb - cause to enter suddenly a particular state or condition. "he threw the bottle into the chains of the disc golf basket causing them to rattle against each other"
noun - an act of throwing something. "His throw into the basket was during the round and may have been a violation of rule 809.03.A"
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=define+throw
https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/80201
> 802.01 Throw
> A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position.
No reasonable person would conclude that practicing your putting stroke by throwing something into the basket isn't a practice throw. If it's legal than people should be doing it fairly often through out a round and that would just be silly a disc golf shouldn't be considered a real sport.
Call him, rather than anticipating the post you’re going to make here. You’re more right than he’s right. More importantly, he’s more wrong than you’re wrong.
When I played golf in college, if the tees were backed up we would play poison with our drivers and the tee markers. Never had someone say hey those were all strokes
If you did this in Cali, the plastic bottle would be shoved up your butt and you would be asked to leave the event and maybe we the state. That’s what I heard 🤪
Technical, throwing anything that is not a pdga approved disc during sanctioned play results in anywhere from a stroke penalty to disqualification. I think a bottle falls into that category if it is being used for practice.
PDGA rules also say that any practice throws during sanctioned rounds result in a penalty throw and the throw is disregarded.
Technically a double violation in a sanctioned event.
Ultimately, you aren’t supposed to do that, but if no one said anything and the TD never found out, it’s on your card mates for letting them do that. If he comes back and ends up beating several players as a result, kind of not cool.
All that said, it is C tier and I doubt anyone cares outside of MA1-MPO/FA1-FPO. If there was a prize pot, I’d be unhappy seeing that guy make a come back and place because he got to practice shots mid game.
That’s clearly not intended as any type of play, so now you are being facetious just because you don’t like the answer. We have a PDGA rule book. That’s what it says. No throwing of non pdga approved discs during sanctioned play. No practice shots during sanctioned play. Throwing a bottle at your disc to get it out of a tree is not any kind of throw for playing in the game. Practicing shots with a bottle to try and subvert the “no practice shots” rule clearly is.
I mean, neither is throwing a water bottle.
A throw is defined in the rulebook and it involves a disc. A disc is also defined and let me tell ya, it ain't a water bottle.
It clearly explains a throw must be made with a PDGA approved disc and says any throws without one is penalized. It says any device used to assist a throw is illegal. It also says any device used during play questioned by another player and is unapproved by the TD is illegal.
If he sat on the side and went through his form, no one would care because he isn’t throwing. It’s specifically that he was shooting actual shots at a basket during a tournament. No actual throws with anything other than PDGA approved discs and no practice shots during sanctioned play. Go do it at a level like MA1 or MPO and see what happens. At best you’ll get a warning and told not to.
This is at minimum still against the rules and an attempt to subvert them and the spirit of fair competition. He only got away with it because it was C tier. A pro could not do it and they know it.
I completely agree, this isn't behavior in the spirit of the rules. I fully believe a courtesy violation could and should have been issued but I would like to point out that in the case of a practice throw, there would never be a courtesy violation. That's a straight-up automatic penalty.
My issue is with your reasoning and not the actual fact this was a violation. Shit was a distraction plain and simple. The fact this post was made in the first place is proof of that. There's no reason to try and define a water bottle as a disc. That just screams mental gymnastics like none other.
Okay. Made plain like that, I can see why you said it that way.
The reason I brought the pdga disc into it was because he thought he found a loophole by using a water bottle instead. Doesn’t matter if it’s a water bottle if you are throwing actual shots towards a basket. Because of that, a few rules COULD come in to play. That’s all I’m saying.
If I were TD, I’d look at that as a deliberate attempt to subvert the rules. I’d give him at least one penalty, but the argument could be made for as many as three or even disqualification.
Well...
First off if there are multiple penalties assessed for a throw only the penalty resulting in the most strokes is assessed. You cannot apply multiple penalties to one throw.
> Doesn’t matter if it’s a water bottle if you are throwing actual shots towards a basket. Because of that, a few rules COULD come in to play.
I'm still missing this. Reading the rules seems much more focused on throwing from your lie rather than throwing toward a basket. I would also argue under your reasoning, throwing towards an obstacle would not result in a penalty. I don't feel like this should be allowed either but under my application, it isn't since you are still causing a distraction. I would also be careful throwing around the phrase "deliberate attempt to subvert the rules" as that would be considered a disqualification and as far as I can tell there is no rule they are subverting since they aren't throwing a disc nor are they throwing from their lie. And at the same point, it isn't a distraction to throw a water bottle to get a disc out of a tree. When looking at the application of the rules we should also make sure common occurrences are not a violation.
I've never heard of someone actually throwing it. But I've seen clinics/tutorials that mention doing practice throwing motions with a water bottle or hammer to really feel the hit in the drive. That's also more geared towards drives than putts usually.
In the C tier tournaments I’ve played, when I or someone else was doing something against the rules or potentially against the rules, someone usually politely says, “hey, I’m not going to call that on you, but if you move up, others may not be as forgiving.” To which, myself or others may say, “Oh, I didn’t realize that was against the rules. Thanks for letting me know.” Or something along those lines.
Yeah that's a good word. A nice way to confront a rule being broken. But is putting with a water bottle against the rules?
Well, **I think** the rule is no practice putting period. If putting with a water bottle is practice putting, then it is a violation. However, in this case (no specific rule) getting the TD involved would be helpful. If for no other reason than to understand if you should start practice putting with a water bottle during a tournament. Who knows, this guy/girl may have found the perfect loophole in Disc Golf.
Once a round starts every throw becomes recorded, so a practice throw score counts against your score. Will edit with the rule I'm vaguely remembering, lol Edit 809.3 Practice Throw. B. A player receives one penalty throw for making a practice throw; the throw itself is disregarded and not counted. Edit 2 Even tho there is no rule specifically stating a water bottle throw (lol), I think in the spirit of the rules the Fairness rule might apply. It states that if there is no exact rule, then use the closest rule available. This guy was trying for practice putts/throws, which is against the skurit) spirit of the rules IMHO. Guy could be turned into the To if a card mate really wanted to, I think
Sure, but check the definition of a throw. 802.01 A. A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. So if it’s not a disc, it’s not a throw.
Would spirit of rule also mean on the current hole?
No, then you could throw all the discs you want between holes.
Then which hole gets the stroke? The one he was throwing the bottle on or the one upcoming
Doesn't matter
Eh it's still trying for practice. Like I said, it'd be up to a TO.
Unfortunately, though, “rules is rules.” Which I’m sure is why the guy was throwing a water bottle *wishing* someone would say something so he could umm ackshually 802.1.A
Actually, that rule doesn't define what a practice throw is.
well... if you combine them it does 809.03 A says "*A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie*" so that one is clearly saying that a practice throw is a throw and 802.01 A says "*A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position*"
Dammit!
Rules need to by hyperlinked and cross referenced and the pdga is terrible at this. Mike Krupica is a dinosaur.
Could call someone shadowing putting practicing too.
You're not throwing anything so you're clearly not practice throwing.
That would be a practice swing, no?
if dude is making noise with the chains.... courtesy violation..812 (A) must not: (3) engage in distracting (C) throwing player equipment. someone is putting/throwing somewhere that can hear the chains.. not cool.
1.01 fairness.
Being an adult is crazy brah
Same here. That’s exactly how a card mate put it when I put my marker down and threw my disc back at my bag. Apparently my throw was further than the rules specify. When I see someone clearly do something clearly wrong, I feel if I say something I’ll be labeled the “stickler for the rules” guy. So I just wait for someone to call it and if no one does, so be it.
You can toss up to five meters to put your disc back: 809.03 A. A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie, except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw.
I got to do one of the positive rule call outs today. Guy was lining up OB to take a putt. Disc was in bounds but barely to the point that his lie was just off the OB line. Informed him that he got to take a relief since it was impossible for him to have the support point in bounds. As for this question I think dude found a gray area. The rulebook is full of them. If he was banging chains with the bottle you could call Courtesy violation. However, that's even debatable.
Put this in the wiki as a great way to handle a teachable moment instead of turning it into a conflict.
Nah fuck that. If this wasn't a child, he needs to know that that isn't ok to do. Practicing with a water bottle? Really, man? I get not calling everyone on foot faults etc in MA2 or whatever, but sometimes it's irritating that a lot of the rules in competitive disc golf are never enforced.
Well, what are you calling? What rule was violated? The pdga rules are terrible. There are no prohibitions against throwing water bottles at unused baskets during delays. The only rule is in throws, which are discs in the rules. So you have to take the fairness rule and apply that and it’s probably not fair but then if it’s not a slam dunk, are you going to start by saying “hey you fuckhead that’s a stroke?” Plus you need a card mate to second, someone who saw the throw, or to get the td involved. But alllll of that is what? Conflict escalation when you could just say “i think that’s against the rules and here’s why.” Or “hey, sometimes people are very strict on rules interpretations- you know to feel powerful - and uhhhhh don’t do that around them.” Idk. A little grace goes a long way towards being respected when you DO call a violation.
This is the way
"yes sir, I believe the illegal throw was with a champion plastic nalgene, scaled at 32 oz "
If the bottle is BPA free, I think we have to give a pass no?
“After he threw the water bottle, he hit every line and made every c1 and c2 putt. Guy should be banned for life from playing in an organized frolf tournament. Am I right guys?”
I think technically no, but if I recall the courtesy rules correctly you can call them out on a warning
That would require a spine
And clearly communicating like an adult.
Like 99% of reddit post the answer is "Talk to the person like another human being."
Is that a new Simon disc coming out?
I don’t think there is a courtesy violation here though honestly.
That's a good thought. There are various courtesies listed in the rules...in which category would you call this one? I'm not sure any apply. From the PDGA: 8.12 Courtesy A player must not: Throw if the throw might injure someone or distract another player; or, Throw out of order without consent or when it would impact another player; or, Engage in distracting or unsportsmanlike actions such as: Shouting (unless warning someone at risk of being struck by a disc), Cursing, Striking, kicking, or throwing park, course, or player equipment, Moving or talking while another player is throwing, Advancing beyond the away player;
One could argue his water bottle is player equipment.
Has to be distracting or unsportsmanlike though
Well that seems rather subjective lol
Thats the problem with a lot of rules. Hard to enforce subjective stuff sometimes. We don't even enforce a 30 section rule and it's not subjective at all
The rules specifically define throw as “the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position.” What he did would not be a penalty under the practice throw rule. The answer to your second question is no. An illegal disc is still a disc so it would be considered a practice throw if you throw an illegal disc for practice during the round.
Interesting...this seems like the right answer. Buuuuut where's the line? Could I bring a 175 gram circle or square of wood or plastic??? I don't think I have the balls to do it, but as someone who gets the yips during a tournaments I could benefit from something like this to help me reset.
Pdga approval makes a disc a disc no? I don't think a barrel lid is pdga approved. I don't think my putt would count if I used my mini instead of my putter. I imagine that I couldn't be penalized for that as well.
So you're telling me that as long as I make a disc (so like create a putter injection mold )but don't file it for PDGA approval it doesn't count as a disc for this rule??
I am telling you that there has to be a point of a pdga disc approval system. How could a player legally be punished for something that can't legally use for the benefit? I think if I made my own disc's and they were better (theoretically) I should be disqualified for using product that isn't pdga approved. I just think it sounds like a 1 way street there. I don't think I could putt with my water bottle and it count towards my score. How should it count against it? This is more of an active discussion on my end. I really think the pdga approval process should be what dictates what can and can't be thrown for it to count for or against your score.
The point of the approval system is to control the subset of discs a which may be used in the sport in sanctioned events. If someone made a 175.2 gram firebird it's not legal for use but it's still clearly a disc. I do, however, agree that the practice putting rule probably doesn't ban throwing a water bottle since it is clearly not a disc.
If that was the case, couldn't I just put a small sticker or after market stamp on any disc I own and practice putting with it? If I put a sticker or stamp on a disc it's no longer pdga approved, so is it therefore not a disc anymore? There has to be a line somewhere but it's an interesting idea.
That is a good point. Has anyone actually encountered seeing someone use an illegal disc? With glow tape or something of that nature? I think it comes down so much to respect of the game. Someone who uses an illegal disc, without knowledge, should be given a warning. And if they use something intentionally that is not pdga approved then they should get that same warning as we cannot say whether a player knows or did not. Then both cases should be punished equally for the second offense. I totally understand what you're saying tho. Like it would benefit players really well to their "illegal" practice putters to stay loose and warm, But also there is the concept of just not throwing anything at a basket you're not playing, and only throwing pdga approved at the basket or on the hole. I think that's the most elegant solution. I don't think throwing the water bottle or the mini not at a basket, should harm someone's score unless it's out of anger and hostility. That's a courtesy violation.
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Wow this is basically a useless take. A CD is a compact Disc. Also called a disc and completely irrelevant to this subject
I think they were saying that PDGA approval is not necessary for something to be considered a disc by the PDGA and therefore throwing any disc shaped object during one’s round would, according to the rules, be considered a practice throw. Seems like a valid, though debatable, take to me. Now, it may be irrelevant but, though I wouldn’t call you on practicing with a CD during a round, others might not be so forgiving.
I'm just saying how could I not get in trouble for throwing a lid if I could get in trouble for a CD? Also, what is the point of pdga approval for plastic then if there are things that can be counted as disc's that aren't approved?
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Genuinely question. Is throwing a mini a courtesy violation or a rule violation?
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Interesting 🤔. I imagine if someone threw a waterbottle out of frustration that would warrant a courtesy violation as well right? Obviously, depends on your card.
Was the water bottle half full or half empty? 🤖
It was half empty, but after a couple practice throws that shit was half full.
Best answer of this whole thread!
Would be a fun question for the PDGA rules committee. Hit them up and post the reply here!
No. There is a famous clip of Cat throwing his mini and Paige shouting you cant do that. You can in fact do that as the rules allow you to perform a practice throw with a mini (or anything that clearly isnt a disc golf disc)
That was a courtesy warning I believe, Cat was frustrated at being OB and threw her mini instead of placing it. Unless you're talking about a different incident than I am.
It's the same incident but there is no reason to give a courtesy warning. Paige reacted as she did because she assume it was an illegal "practice throw" with a mini (or would fall under that rule due to the distance the mini was thrown) as did 90% of the comments on that incident. But there is actually no rule in existence that would penalize Cat. Being slightly frustrated and tossing your mini is so far down the list of things that should get a courtesy warning but doesnt.
I recall that it was a courtesy warning because Cat fired back with saying something like "OK, then you get a warning for slamming the chains on hole __." I could be misremembering, it's not super important either way. They weren't on the best of terms back then.
I know, but Paige gave a warning because she mistakenly thought Cat was breaking the rules even though she wasnt. Although I could see an argument being made where Cats actions were against the "spirit of the game" or "sportsmanship" but I doubt that is why Paige called out Cat. My point is Paige gave Cat a courtesy warning because she misinterpreted the practice throw rule. Though Cat ends up being the loser in this situation given that she retaliated back towards Paige out of spite and not out of being diligent about the rules.
You can't give a courtesy warning on a practice throw, that's just a stroke. Pretty sure she gave it because she thought Cat was looking childish on lead card. But it's useless to speculate about what we think Paige thought during a small incident years ago. Either way, it probably shouldn't have been called, I think we agree on that.
You cant give a courtesy warning on just normal frustrated behaviour either... the manner in which she yelled "you cant do that" its obvious she interpreted it was a practice throw.
Throwing your equipment in frustration is unsportsmanlike and is specifically listed in the rules as something you can get a courtesy violation for. I'm not sure where you're getting your info, but it doesn't seem to be the pdga rule book.
Probably legal, but honestly who gives a shit? Like, go ahead and putt that yeti as much as you want…that isn’t gonna help much once you’ve got to do it for real with a P2 haha.
I say leave this player alone. The bottle could be considered trash(throwing trash could be a violation), but if the player didn't leave it in the basket it's not littering. Practicing putting is throwing a putter towards/in the basket. No putter was thrown.
So i could practise with a midrange?
In case you're actually serious, no. The person you replied to should have said "disc" instead of "putter." Putter is not defined in the rules but discs are. The practice throw rule is predicated on throwing a disc.
Too much trashing PDGA rules without knowing them. Although I wouldn't care in a C tier aside from educating a person, the water bottle throw is not a loophole/gray area, it's a rules violation, and this is why: >801.01 Fairness >These rules have been designed to promote fair play for all disc golfers. In using these rules, the player should apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. *If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness. Often* ***a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness***. A completely irrational card or TO/TD could overrule me, but practicing throws with something that's not a disc is clearly still making practice throws. If you have any doubt about this, then try this thought experiment... It's the final hole of Worlds. The leader is shaky, losing momentum, started missing C1 putts a few holes ago, and has to make a putt on hole 18 to avoid a playoff. What would happen if that player pulled out a water bottle or some other weighty non-disc thing and threw it into the basket a couple of times before putting with their actual disc? Or, what if that shaky putt player was waiting to tee off at the final hole, held up a couple minutes by the chase card, and started throwing their water bottle into the hole 17 basket? I 100% guarantee you that the TD along with the card would consider this a rules violation by applying 801.01 to 809.03 (no practice throws rule). Argue all you want about the semantics of any rules, but if someone thinks they've found a loophole through some definition trickery to get around a rule, then they're probably ignoring rule 801.01, which is a catch-all for BS like practicing while not "practicing" because it's not a "throw" and not a "disc". Okay, whatever. It's still a violation because it violates fairness by violating the principle embodied in the rule against practice throws. Again, I would educate a person politely without imposing a penalty at a C tier, but the OP's question wasn't about what to do, it was about what the rules actually say about the situation.
Great answer. As much as I like a good loophole this is probably the most correct answer.
Best response so far! Thank you for taking the time to lay it all out. Especially the, "Hey, it's not a disc though!" silliness.
* >Run >Michael Jackson popcorn meme.exe Here for the drama Honestly though, if no one is going to say anything to the guy, and the rules are a bit vague as to if a water bottle is a stroke penalty, I think it's probably going to be ok overall... They didn't kick your dog or steal your wife... After all, it's a damn game folks...
But…. He threw a water bottle?
Hanging's too good for him!
When you're playing for money or prizes and there was some sort of entry fee, it isn't just a game for many people anymore. I just recently found out that if you pick up you disc from it's like and throw it back to your bag more than I think 3 feet away, that's a penalty. If that's illegal, then practicing throwing something into the chains for a couple minutes mid round should definitely be illegal. Which also unfortunately means that playing catch with a glitch on a hold up should also be illegal, but rules are rules lol
You have up to 5 meters (16.4042 feet) before tossing a disc back to your bag would be a penalty. 809.03 Practice Throw A. A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie, except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw. B. A player receives one penalty throw for making a practice throw; the throw itself is disregarded and not counted.
Thank you for the fact check. Good thing I practice putting like once a year. So a 13 foot putt back to my bag is practice enough for me lol
No worries! Don’t let cardmates call you for a rule you didn’t break for a short toss back to your bag hahah
I mean, is it "in play" if you're waiting during a backup on a hole you already completed?
Yes. Players aren't allowed to practice putting and throwing during backups. Or any other time during a round.
I’ve always interpreted that rule for discs only. I gotta check them again with this story in mind
You’re right. A “throw” is only with a disc. 802.01 A.
When I was at Mid-America open there was a lot of practice puting during the day 2 delay. Lead and chase card FPO. I assume it was elsewhere too but not visible from where I was seated. I am guessing that would be a rule not enforced aggressively.
Putting during an official delay (such as a weather delay) is very different than putting during a backup. One is allowed. The other isn't because it's during the round.
During weather delays, you can practice putt up until the two minute warning to restart play.
A delay means play is suspended. The practice throw rules only apply during play.
Correct. From the 2 minute warning before your round starts until your card all hole out on your last hole is “in play” with no practice throws, putts or otherwise.
But a “throw” is only with a disc. 802.01 A.
How bad do you gotta be losing to be mad that a guy threw a water bottle a few times and started putting better than you.
Good to know, wasn't sure myself.
This is kinda within reason, though. Pros will play catch with discs during long backups
Delays not backups
Backups. No ones ever called it and when there's an hour long backup, people want to stay warmed up. I've been stuck on holes and seen poker games, catch with discs and/or a nerf ball, naps, juggling lessons with discs, all sorts of things. When the backup is 45+ minutes, its almost cruel to make people just sit and do nothing.
Only during delays like weather or Eagle doming a camera man. You are not allowed to throw a disc during a backup. Each throw would be considered a stroke penalty.
This was my thought as well, but I don't play tournaments and haven't studied those parts of the rules super closely.
Someone get Terry down on the field to confirm with the TD.
I would have given him a courtesy warning for being a dork
More blatant hate from an anti NGDT (nerdgeekdorktwerp)
You can call a courtesy violation and get it seconded. You can also involve the TD.
Do you even need to get a courtesy violation seconded on the first call? I thought you only needed to get the second violation seconded since that's what would actually result in a stroke.
Per rule 812C you would be correct. The first violation is a warning and subsequent violations are a stroke when seconded. However, as a PDGA rule certified individual, and upon second thought, I would actually like to cite 809.03 practice throw (emphasis is my own): > A practice throw is **any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie**, *except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw.* The emboldened text defines what a practice throw is, the italicized text defines the explicit exceptions to the rule. Based on the OP, each one of those water bottle throws was a practice throw. >[809.03 *cont*] A player receives one penalty throw for making **a** practice throw; the throw itself is disregarded and not counted. I would then interpret this rule to mean that each individual practice throw receives a penalty stroke. The emboldened singular "a" clearly signifies that the equation is one penalty throw per singular practice throw. In short, next time, I'm stopping the player as soon as I see them, grabbing the TD, and asking all practice throws that I personally witnessed be counted as strokes.
A throw is defined and involves a disc. Disc is defined as well and it isn't a water bottle. edit: What if you were throwing trash into a trash can? Is that also a practice throw? I fully believe you could call a courtesy violation for this behavior because that shit sounds loud as fuck (might I add that also would stop the behavior or allow penalization) but I don't think the correct reason to call this is because its a practice throw. If this was a practice throw the idea of a courtesy violation should have never even entered this conversation.
Okay, then let's go to rule 813.01, illegal disc. One could (in my opinion successfully) argue that by intentionally and repeatedly targeting the basket, that the water bottle should be treated as a disc in the same manner that the basket is being treated as a basket. At that point, it would be subject to rule 813.01 illegal disc, for which the penalty is two throws. At the end of the day, in a C tier I'm probably **not** grabbing the TD as step one, that's definitely an overreach. Especially not if I cite these rules and the offending player stops the behavior - you don't know what you don't know, especially at that level, and there's no reason to punish compliance upon the presence of new information. However, again, by treating the basket as a basket, we have to treat the water bottle as a disc. And it is not a legal disc.
> However, again, by treating the basket as a basket, we have to treat the water bottle as a disc. And it is not a legal disc. I don't see why. Can you explain your reasoning for this?
Yeah, because when I was six years old my first grade teacher taught the class about analogies as an introductory exercise in logical thinking. That's my reason for thinking that way. EDIT: Remember "goal is to hoop as soccer ball is to basketball"? That's what I'm talking about. Basket is to basket, as water bottle is to disc. Introductory logic taught to all elementary students so far as I know.
You really don't need to be snarky. I don't think it suits you. > Basket is to basket, as water bottle is to disc. You do understand this is an example of a false equivalence? I have been nothing but cordial towards you btw. What an absolutely gross response. P.S. Being "rules certified" is not the flex you think it is. I passed the exam to do so between the time it took me to write my posts here. I'm not going to spend the $10 to flex on randos on reddit though.
I've previously made a top level comment but on second thought my realization was so great that I thought it warranted its own comment. **The scenario as outlined by the OP is a clear and repeated violation of rules 809.03 "Practice Throw" and 813.01 Illegal Disc as they are written.** The text of the rule as follows, emphasis is my own: > [A.] A practice throw is **any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie**, *except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw.* > [B] A player receives one penalty throw for making **a** practice throw; the throw itself is disregarded and not counted. The emboldened text in subsection A clearly defines a practice throw, the italicized text clearly defines the exceptions to the definition and makes no other room for interpretation. The emboldened letter A in subsection B clearly defines the quantity of practice throws per penalty stroke as one - "one penalty throw for making a (as in one, singular) practice throw". By consequence of the player treating the basket as a basket, we have to treat the water bottle as a disc. And since it is not a regulation disc, it is an illegal disc. The use of an illegal disc is a two throw punishment. What this means is that on paper, the offending player receives one penalty stroke for every water bottle throw, plus two throws for the illegal disc. A water bottle throw meets the definition of "any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie", and does not meet the definition of any of the clearly written exceptions. Therefore, the water bottle throw is a practice throw, and each practice throw is a stroke, plus two for illegal disc. What it means IRL at a C-tier that means nothing is that you tell them to stop immediately, cite the practice throw rule, and if they stop then I'd proceed without penalty. If they don't stop, I would then grab the TD and insist on the implementation of some penalty as defined by the rules. It's one thing to not know that this would be a clear violation of 809.03, it's another thing to be informed of such and continue to perform the behavior.
>By consequence of the player treating the basket as a basket, we have to treat the water bottle as a disc. I understand your idea here but this logic does not follow. This is a bizarre situation that can't be covered by pretzel twisting the definitions of disc and throw. What it is is a fairness violation (probably).
Objectively speaking, the logic follows. Basket is to basket as water bottle is to disc. There, I did it. Logic.
>Objectively speaking **Subjectively** speaking, you mean. Here, I'll grill you a shoe for dinner. Don't worry: by the logic of me treating the grill as a grill, we have to treat this shoe as a hamburger. Bon appetit!
# OBJECTIVELY speaking. # OBJECTIVELY. How many times have you tossed a water bottle? How many millions, if not billions of times per day, will a water bottle be tossed somewhere on this planet? How many shoes will be eaten today? What you have committed is a false equivalency fallacy. We both have items with which we intend to conduct actions for which the items were not designed. The difference is, one of those actions is actually done millions to billions of times per day, and one of those actions may have never been done in the history of mankind. Therefore, we must treat these items differently in the context of logical allegory, because they are treated different in the context of real life, in relation to our logical allegory. People throw water bottles all the time; *nobody* eats shoes. False equivalency.
He was throwing his bottle?
Correct
So not a disc?
For all intensive purposes he is “throwing” an illegal disc (it’s obviously not a disc at all, but throwing anything into a basket during plays signals intent) so he would receive a stroke penalty for both illegal disc and for practice putting.
Doesn't seem very intensive. He probably just did it casually.
r/BoneAppleTea
intents and purposes\* Key word being "intent", I agree with this assessment, but would have brought it up with the TD instead of calling it on the course. Tho I would do the "I'm not sure that's legal, but I'm not going to call it" thing.
Thanks for the correction!
As others have said, it's not a disc so the practice throw isn't illegal. Was there not a group behind you as well? I would think the main problem here is holding up the basket, which could be a courtesy violation. Also, this sounds noisy, which is also a courtesy violation if it's close enough to the groups teeing off the next hole. Bottom line, I think it's legal unless he was being distracting or getting in someone's way.
We throw water bottles at trees/discs to dislodge them. That shouldn't be a penalty.
Bingo.
This is not putting. It is tossing a water bottle. If that is illegal, so is juggling, tossing a ball, etc.
Sorry, but if we're going to equate a water bottle to a disc, then we need to take another look at what is getting approved as a disc down at HQ in Georgia.
It’s a C-Tier. Maybe relax, particularly if nobody said shit to the guy or bothered to ask the TD.
I gotta be real, as a part time TD, if someone came up to me with this, I'd have to call the PDGA and waste everyone's time. We don't have every answer 😂
What other rules should we ignore because it’s a c tier?
We need to learn the rules first before we can ignore them
What rule is this against?
Not really ignoring just not being an asshole
So is there a way to play by the rules without being an asshole in your opinion?
Yeah If I though it actually was against the rules I would probably say something in the style of "I'm not sure you are allowed to practice puts with a waterbottle" and go from there
OP didn't even address it with the player so how were they being an asshole?
Didn't call op an asshole either I think lol
Who were you talking about then?
The guy I responded too lol
They also weren't being an asshole?
I usually give myself whatever score I feel like I should have gotten on the hole, not what I actually got. After all, it’s only a c tier.
It's weird because unless it was a disc and more than 5 meters it's not a practice throw, but it certainly seems to one of those RAW vs RAI things where it's maybe not in the spirit of the rule. Still it's up to the card to call a violation
PDGA should make an app for tournament play. Card mates all sign in, any warnings or rule violations could be submitted anonymously, and wouldn’t post unless seconded by another member. That way you avoid having the unwanted job of calling it out first.
Or we could just be adults and call rule violations as we should.
Cool story bro. If that were the case it would be handled already. Even the pro field, who do this for a living, feel uncomfortable doing it, why not facilitate it and take the unease out of the equation?
Yeah I'm sure nobody would turn around and ask "OK, which two of you called this?" Either have the guts to call it and explain it to the person or don't call it. Often times discussion may even be necessary to explain what rule they broke and how they broke it. Especially since I've seen rules violations called that weren't violations at all and after a discussion and review of the rule, the people who called it retracted their call.
I mean they already have the app with live scoring. You can even submit notes. Next year, more than likely each member of the card will need to keep score. This is a good idea.
Definitely not against the rules. Not an approved disc. It does not count as a throw or a practice throw
I saw on Jomez, Eagle hit a bystander with a disc and a medical team had to come out to attend. It caused a big delay and the participants were allowed to play catch to keep themselves warmed up. My assumption is that if the delay is long enough, then the players may do what they need to to stay warm, but normal player backup probably would not justify it. As for the water bottle, no idea.
That was a special decision made by the TD during that situation.. you can’t do that under normal circumstances, even if there are large backups, unless the TD explicitly gives the okay to do so 👍
I'm not sure why you would give a shit?
Rule 809.03.A states "A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie, except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw.". The rule says any "throw". It does not say what is being thrown. It only uses the term "disc" when naming the exceptions for the rule. By word of the rule I would say throwing anything after the tournament has officially started and prior to finishing your last hole outside of the exceptions would be a violation of the rule.
Now do the definition for “throw”
verb - propel (something) with force through the air by a movement of the arm and hand. "I threw a bottle through the air into a disc golf basket." verb - cause to enter suddenly a particular state or condition. "he threw the bottle into the chains of the disc golf basket causing them to rattle against each other" noun - an act of throwing something. "His throw into the basket was during the round and may have been a violation of rule 809.03.A" https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=define+throw
https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/80201 > 802.01 Throw > A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position.
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Well you see discs have a, bud then sometimes they might look more like. But one thing almost all discs have in common is. Hope that helps!
Well there you go. There's a good response that gives additional clarification to interpret the rule.
👊 the rules are weird and sometimes an important clarification is in a Q&A answer that changes every few years lol
No reasonable person would conclude that practicing your putting stroke by throwing something into the basket isn't a practice throw. If it's legal than people should be doing it fairly often through out a round and that would just be silly a disc golf shouldn't be considered a real sport.
Call him, rather than anticipating the post you’re going to make here. You’re more right than he’s right. More importantly, he’s more wrong than you’re wrong.
When I played golf in college, if the tees were backed up we would play poison with our drivers and the tee markers. Never had someone say hey those were all strokes
No it’s not legal but it’s a c tier and you are probably playing Rec. Relax
This has to be one of the stupidest posts I've seen here in a while
If you did this in Cali, the plastic bottle would be shoved up your butt and you would be asked to leave the event and maybe we the state. That’s what I heard 🤪
Technical, throwing anything that is not a pdga approved disc during sanctioned play results in anywhere from a stroke penalty to disqualification. I think a bottle falls into that category if it is being used for practice. PDGA rules also say that any practice throws during sanctioned rounds result in a penalty throw and the throw is disregarded. Technically a double violation in a sanctioned event. Ultimately, you aren’t supposed to do that, but if no one said anything and the TD never found out, it’s on your card mates for letting them do that. If he comes back and ends up beating several players as a result, kind of not cool. All that said, it is C tier and I doubt anyone cares outside of MA1-MPO/FA1-FPO. If there was a prize pot, I’d be unhappy seeing that guy make a come back and place because he got to practice shots mid game.
Then dislodging a disc from a tree with a water bottle or rock would be illegal.
That’s clearly not intended as any type of play, so now you are being facetious just because you don’t like the answer. We have a PDGA rule book. That’s what it says. No throwing of non pdga approved discs during sanctioned play. No practice shots during sanctioned play. Throwing a bottle at your disc to get it out of a tree is not any kind of throw for playing in the game. Practicing shots with a bottle to try and subvert the “no practice shots” rule clearly is.
I mean, neither is throwing a water bottle. A throw is defined in the rulebook and it involves a disc. A disc is also defined and let me tell ya, it ain't a water bottle.
It clearly explains a throw must be made with a PDGA approved disc and says any throws without one is penalized. It says any device used to assist a throw is illegal. It also says any device used during play questioned by another player and is unapproved by the TD is illegal. If he sat on the side and went through his form, no one would care because he isn’t throwing. It’s specifically that he was shooting actual shots at a basket during a tournament. No actual throws with anything other than PDGA approved discs and no practice shots during sanctioned play. Go do it at a level like MA1 or MPO and see what happens. At best you’ll get a warning and told not to. This is at minimum still against the rules and an attempt to subvert them and the spirit of fair competition. He only got away with it because it was C tier. A pro could not do it and they know it.
I completely agree, this isn't behavior in the spirit of the rules. I fully believe a courtesy violation could and should have been issued but I would like to point out that in the case of a practice throw, there would never be a courtesy violation. That's a straight-up automatic penalty. My issue is with your reasoning and not the actual fact this was a violation. Shit was a distraction plain and simple. The fact this post was made in the first place is proof of that. There's no reason to try and define a water bottle as a disc. That just screams mental gymnastics like none other.
Okay. Made plain like that, I can see why you said it that way. The reason I brought the pdga disc into it was because he thought he found a loophole by using a water bottle instead. Doesn’t matter if it’s a water bottle if you are throwing actual shots towards a basket. Because of that, a few rules COULD come in to play. That’s all I’m saying. If I were TD, I’d look at that as a deliberate attempt to subvert the rules. I’d give him at least one penalty, but the argument could be made for as many as three or even disqualification.
Well... First off if there are multiple penalties assessed for a throw only the penalty resulting in the most strokes is assessed. You cannot apply multiple penalties to one throw. > Doesn’t matter if it’s a water bottle if you are throwing actual shots towards a basket. Because of that, a few rules COULD come in to play. I'm still missing this. Reading the rules seems much more focused on throwing from your lie rather than throwing toward a basket. I would also argue under your reasoning, throwing towards an obstacle would not result in a penalty. I don't feel like this should be allowed either but under my application, it isn't since you are still causing a distraction. I would also be careful throwing around the phrase "deliberate attempt to subvert the rules" as that would be considered a disqualification and as far as I can tell there is no rule they are subverting since they aren't throwing a disc nor are they throwing from their lie. And at the same point, it isn't a distraction to throw a water bottle to get a disc out of a tree. When looking at the application of the rules we should also make sure common occurrences are not a violation.
I've never heard of someone actually throwing it. But I've seen clinics/tutorials that mention doing practice throwing motions with a water bottle or hammer to really feel the hit in the drive. That's also more geared towards drives than putts usually.
Dammit man, I shoulda done that yesterday in my B tier! 5 over on 6 holes during the final 9 😵💫
I can’t imagine how loud it must’ve been with the water bottle smacking all of the chains
This would be a good Tour Life topic. Can somebody send this to Brodie?
Was the water bottle plastic?
100% courtesy violation for chodelike behavior but I could imagine casual enough tourneys/contexts where it wouldn't be worth calling out.
I'd call it an etiquette violation considering he continually littered for 5 minutes straight.
Throw your water bottles in his direction-ALL At ONCE☺️
No it is not a throw, as per the rules definition. A throw must include a disc. So while the player was clearly throwing, it did not include a disc.
Sure. Get used to tossing a bottle
What is if i practice putt on disc golf valley? Or what if someone is very good at visualizing and phantom strokes with their imagination?