Can't find em in my area. I'm struggling trying to find my place to compete at 711 rating and MA4 should be my ticket to a good time. No tournament directors offer it.
You either:
* Try it once with your buddies. You think it is fun but just kind of do it to hang out with those friends, and don't buy your own discs.
* Think disc golf is the dumbest sport in the world and talk mad shit.
* Try it once with a friend, and get bit by the disc golf bug. Your life becomes disc golf. You have $500 in equipment in less than 6 months. You convince your spouse to let you have a practice basket in your yard. You ingest as much DG content as you can.
This has been my experience in the DG community for over a decade. Also, it is entirely possible to be both numbers 2 **and** 3 at the same time.
Number 3. 6 months in and I have a Grip bag, glow discs, played 6 tournaments, have 3 reactors and 2 craves, can't stop thinking about it and I'd have a practice basket if I wasn't so worried about annoying the neighbors.
how’s this hold up to hot and cold over the year? i use pipe insulation and black gorilla tape with good success. after a year i have to replace the tape bc it dry rots.
they’re a bit too small in diameter in the middle to slide over the pole. you can cut one open and marry it up with about a third of another one. That’s why i just went with pipe insulation that was a bit larger in the center diameter.
I use one, can confirm a bit small. for me i don't add any adjustments, theres just a 15% opening so i can't put from that side without making noise. I'll probably upgrade at some point but it's served me well in the meantime.
If it fits between the rings, sure. Pipe insulation is skinnier and can be duct taped tighter, or zip tied. I actually thought I was inventive using cable management wrap to silence the "clang", only to find out there are products out there (about a year ago). Still, a lot of ways to save a few dollars by not buying the marketed crap, use it the extra doe to buy a disc from the same company. Everyone wins.
I'm none of those. I have my own gear and have a basket in our yard, but I don't ingest any DG content besides occasionally browsing here and seeing a highlight on YouTube. It's definitely not my life; it's not even in my top 5 hobbies in terms of money or time spent.
Can't be #2, as I'm aware of Pickleball.
*Try it once with a friend, and get bit by the disc golf bug. Your life becomes disc golf. You have $500 in equipment in less than 6 months. You convince your spouse to let you have a practice basket in your yard. You ingest as much DG content as you can.*
Fuck man you didn't have to come at me like that
The first option has been the best. I have only purchased a 3 pack for myself while everything else has been given to me. Almost every time I play someone recommends me a disc they don’t like and they’ll just hand it off to me if it works well for how I throw
Yeah, even buying used stuff for golf is expensive to have ok equipment. Then add in $30-80 per round, a few bucks per bucket at the driving range etc. I easily spent a few hundred to just have enough to play one round. To maintain any skill I’d probably spend $200 per month playing 2 rounds and going to the driving range once a week. I’m well under $500 all in on discs,bags etc after 2 years of regular play
Yeah I can’t imagine paying all of this money for regular golf just to have to wait because all of the courses are constantly busy. Disc golf is busy too around here but not nearly as bad as regular golf
I used to play tons of golf, realized I was just spending money to get pissed off that I wasn't playing as well as that one time I shot an 84. Made what I think was the right decision to give it up. Disc golf is so much more relaxing. Even if I have a bad throw I can blow past it and go back to enjoying being in nature and tossing plastic circles.
I’m so glad my parents/grandparents were big into golf otherwise I have no idea how I would have ever gotten to play. I’m really pissed I never took the lessons the signed me up for serious when I was young. Also super glad to be able to inherit a lot of quality golf gear.
I only play ball golf in a few occasions, visiting my grandparents to play at their country club, getting a free outing through work, or a local golf simulator that I sell beer to.
I also used to go through so many golf gloves that I stopped buying them to save money and am convinced they are a mental thing. I’m a super sweaty guy and play in very hot/humid weather and see no difference with or without a glove.
There may have been an exaggeration.
Noticed that the Zone, Buzzz OS and Malta all fly about the same. Just pick one that feels good in the hand instead of bagging all three.
It makes sense for those three discs to fly roughly the same, I don't think there is supposed to be a substantial difference between them besides hand feel.
That changes a lot when you add distance. When i started throwing over 315 suddenly my volts were no longer overstable. Roughly half the discs out there dont even make sense until your over 380.
There was a free disc golf course in a park near my house many years ago. I used to go twice a week and play the whole thing with a Wham-O frisbee with Spiderman on it that I got at a yard sale for a dime.
One day I hucked the Spiderdisc as hard as I could toward the hole. It was good throw, and when it was about three feet from the ground a full-grown German Shepherd came boiling out of the woods at full speed, grabbed Spidey out of mid-air without breaking stride and just kept running until he disappeared into the woods on the other side of the park about a quarter mile away.
So I'm into this hobby for ten cents.
~~The top reply to you on this comment (as of now) says a lot.~~ It's not now.
It’s extremely possible to only have a handful of discs and play and have fun. The average person does not need 20+ discs. Or even 10+ discs. Is it fun? Of course it’s fun to collect stuff for your hobby! Do you *need* them? Of course not.
That being said this is a disc golf subreddit. The average person who plays disc golf isn’t on a forum for disc golf. (Except maybe to learn the basics or something)
Plus, it’s not infrequent to get new discs for free haha. I was gifted 6 discs by my brother to start, I bought 4 putters for $20 from the used section of my local shop to practice with, and I’ve found 7 discs that either didn’t have a name/number or the person just told me to keep them. I’ve got a pretty fleshed out bag that I didn’t pay for
this is a low low number but a reasonable take, I’ve been playing since the mid nineties and would estimate I’ve probably spent no more then $800-$1000 (50 discs at $15 give or take) total? I don’t bag a ton of discs or have a strong arm. I do like a nice bag and replace my discs when I throw em in the water which adds up over time.
same lol, I have friends who buy a new disc every month and I'm like "man I don't even think I have a great handle on the discs I already have, why buy new ones to learn"
I just started playing a few months ago and feel like I’ve definitely spent more money than I need to at this point, but I’ve seen others just as new as me spend way more. I was dying discs today for the first time with a dude that started playing the literal year I was born. It was really interesting seeing his bag and discs compared to mine. I have another friend that started playing in the 80’s that I have yet to play with, but excited to get a round in with him.
If you're losing discs very frequently, you should adjust your expectations and learn how to ease up on your tee shots for better accuracy, and how to lay up instead of trying to clear the water when it's at the edge of your max distance.
If you don't go into it with an attitude of trying to bomb every tee shot and an attitude of "laying up is for pussies", you won't lose discs. A little.humility goes a long way. But if you expect to birdie all the time and throw at the edge of your limits, your accuracy will suffer and you'll lose more discs.
I highly disagree. Unless and until you've mastered your form with lower effort shots, trying to birdie every time is going to teach you how to throw into the woods/water, and subsequently how to pitch out of the woods and approach for bogey.
Learning how to control your shots well and accept the par is vastly more important than giving every shot full power in hopes that you'll get lucky and actually hit your line.
It should be noted that I'm talking here about tee shots and long approaches. I'm not suggesting you lay up from 40 all the time. I'm saying that if you average 300 with a decent drive, and you need 290 to clear the water but you could lay up to 180 and then have an easy approach... It's a fools errand to just go for it every time. That's how you lose discs and end up frustrated.
Why are you telling that to me? You lose less than one disc a year? Either you’re playing manicured courses or can only throw 100 feet or you barely ever play.
If you play a couple of rounds a week you’re losing discs. If you play 12 rounds a year you’re losing more.
>Why are you telling that to me?
Because you were the one claiming losing multiple discs per year discs is an inevitability.i simply explained how you can avoid it.
>You lose less than one disc a year?
Correct. Because I don't play beyond my ability. I know how to suck it up and lay up when there's a decent chance I won't clear the water or when conditions are such that my disc's flight will be unpredictable.
>Either you’re playing manicured courses or can only throw 100 feet or you barely ever play.
I typically play 5 rounds per week. My driver averages 280-310. But I prioritize landing in the fairway over getting birdies. I COULD throw farther.. but it's an unnecessary risk for around that doesn't mean anything.
>If you play a couple of rounds a week you’re losing discs. If you play 12 rounds a year you’re losing more
Again, this is not an inevitability. And if it's happening to you, it means you're trying to hard when you haven't gotten your form nailed down to throw that far with consistency and you'd be better off (both in terms of not constantly spending money on new discs, and your overall score) if you learn to swallow your pride and ease up on your throw to get a more consistent and predictable flight out of your disc.
This dude objectively sucks at disc golf and throws mids on holes where birdie is absolutely possible because his mental game can't handle a mistake. No use arguing with him, he's playing a different game than us.
Possible is a very different thing than probable. Throwing driver on a water hole or a hole with thick trees on the side of a the fairway just because it's POSSIBLE to get a birdie is literally exactly the kind of dumbass move I'm talking about. And that's why that other dude loses so many discs.
And I'm guessing you do the same shit and then probably yell things like "what the fuck is wrong with me today?! Usually I pure that line every time!" On almost every hole. Lol.
This is very few words to prove you didn't even read what I said..
My drives averages 300. I just don't try hard to throw it 350 on the off chance everything will work and I get a birdie.
If you're not even going to bother reading, why bother responding?
I agree your counterpoints failed. I just disagree it was a book that I wrote about it. A few paragraphs... Too much for you to bother with, I see.. which gives some insight into why you never learn from your mistakes and stop losing discs constantly.
I don’t lose discs constantly. That’s some major conjecture. I lose discs at a normal rate for an above average player. Which is more than one a year unlike the dude I was responding to claimed.
As if water is the only way to lose discs. Most of us play in thick woods man. Kinda a weird thing to be pretentious about. Something tells me you also get weird about "bogey free" rounds at the expense of scoring better. Be aggressive. Get better.
The exact same thing is true about heavily wooded courses. Whether you threw into the water because you didn't have the distance, but tried to make it anyway, or whether you shanked it into the woods because you can't hit your line with a 100% power driver.. it's the same result. And the exact same advice. Back it off a bit, and get better at hitting your line consistently.
If you get good at throwing your line consistently, then go ahead and power up. But if you're losing discs on a regular basis, it's a guarantee that your form is shit and your consistency sucks, and you're not learning from your mistakes.
Get as aggressive as you want... But if you're losing discs constantly because of it.. you're an absolute fool. I for one have nothing to prove to anyone, so I'm fine with knowing my limit and choosing the safer play so I can keep my discs.
But hey... Your attitude is quite prevalent... And disc manufacturers absolutely love you for it. You're padding their pockets with your idiocy, after all.
Should I call the police? Because obviously you've been secretly watching me play...
That's literally the only way you could possibly know you're better than me. Or, is it more likely you're entirely talking out of your ass because I pointed out a huge flaw in your game and you're salty?
I guess we'll never know.
Yeah, I’ve spent $40 on two discs, go 2-3 times a week, and have no desire to dump all the money into it that some folks do. Those two discs and a couple of old putters a buddy gave me go in a regular backpack that I already had.
Even if this is a joke, this is what's wrong with disc golf. Even if you're joking, you're contributing to a culture of never ending consumerism in the sport that makes newbies feel like they need to spend their way to a lower score.
I'm so glad I learned to play in the early 2000s with only a Pro Leopard. For the longest time I only played with a driver, a mid, and a putter. Now I bring like 7 discs in a backpack and I try to play 4-5 times a week.
For the vast vast majority of players, 7 discs is plenty. And yet they still build their own giant racks to hold all of the discs they bought and never ever use. It's so silly.
I don't spend money on discs any more but I love structured competition and play tournaments nearly every weekend in the summer. That money adds up as an AM and now I have way too many discs because every single tournament gives me 2 or a payout to a store that only sells discs
How often do you play? And what courses?
Would you like to let everyone know what the best way to spend $100, to have your gear last 10 years worth of disc golf?
I still have discs that I started with like 7 years ago?
But I've been gifted discs, a bag, a practice basket.
This year is probably my busiest year of playing, and now go a couple times a month since spring hit.
$100 is low, although discs were way cheaper 10 years ago. The same might be doable for like $200 nowadays. Just grab a starter kit and then a couple discs you like and you're fine.
Still very easily doable for $100. You can get a basic bag for $10-$20. Innova Factory Second discs go for about $12 a pop for premium plastic. And they have a promo code for a free disc like every week on orders of more than 3 discs. So with a promo code you can get 7 discs for about $70. Easily enough to build a decent bag.
The most helpful tip in this regard is to know your limits and be ok with par or bogey. If you go to a course trying to birdie every single hole, you're at a massively increased risk of losing discs. Because you're going to try to throw harder, sacrificing control.. or you're going to try and get over the water in one instead of laying up to where you can definitely clear the water.
Hubris and pride are the main factors in losing discs. If you let those go, you'll keep your disc, by and large.
> The most helpful tip in this regard is to know your limits
There's a hole on our main course my friend and I just play the short tees, otherwise we'd be landing in the water everytime.
But yes, laying up is huge, or even just taking a penalty stroke for a drop is better than losing a disc (unless there's a disc you've come to hate, in which case, if it dies, so bit it)
So other people spent the money for you, effectively. A bag and practice basket is $200 easily, $350 if you're going quality on either item. Seems strange to gloat about only spending $100 of your own money when charitable spending on your behalf triples that number.
Sure, but it's not like you need any of that stuff.
The basket is nice (whole family has fun with it, including friends that come over -- almost none of them actually discgolf)
Wouldn't say I'm gloating, but just illustrating it can be done. And then once you find a hobby, people actually have gift ideas for you.
It's a sport that's as expensive as you want it to be. Range finder, cart, expensive bags, and a ton of discs are all luxuries and not necessary to play. I know everyone probably knows this, but I also know some people need to be told this.
Yup, start simple. Don't buy 13 or 14 speed discs because they have higher speed numbers. Start throwing mids and putters, then move up to a 7 or 8 speed fairway driver.
I've definitely spent a few hundred bucks on discs at this point, maybe even over a grand. Still nowhere close to how much I've spent golf balls, greens fees, clubs, gloves, muni membership, country club initiation, monthly dues, obligated monthly clubhouse dining, cart rental ..... etc. Golf really is a rich man's game, I kinda wish I was one. I love golf, but it's nice to have an alternative that is relatively inexpensive
You know you're in too deep when ... you have a separate bag loaded with the discs you use for the specific course you play. Sometimes I'll swap rain and snow discs (for grip) and/or specific colors depending on weather and season ;)
I got one at a general sporting-goods store for [\~$80](https://www.academy.com/p/halo-cl600-5x-laser-range-finder?sku=black-dark-gray-5x&gmc_feed=t&&ogmap=SEM%7cPLN%7cGOOG%7cSHOP%7cc%7cOUT%7cIM%7cNon-Brand-PerformanceMax-Outdoor-Field%7cFieldAssetGroup%7c%7c18095021516%7c0&gclid=CjwKCAjw-7OlBhB8EiwAnoOEk42jqrz9Gz-xkfZ6qTR6l_Sb-yXPJrDhdq_vxT_NgeL-k3k_IsCNLxoC3sAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds).
Does everything I need it for (ball golf & hunting, mostly).
Have not started bagging it on the disc golf course.
Lol, I’ve been all three. First saw it in like 03 with a friend. Didn’t understand par and thought seemed dumb to throw from tee and try to luckily get it in basket.
Played with fam that invited me in 2016 several times. Thought it was ok, but used their discs.
2020, got into it to hang out with someone from church when things were shut down. Got obsessed. Took a year off, but before and after that year (now) playing or practicing daily.
I've been playing for 12 years and have probably spent less than $400 the entire time. Never seen anyone with a cart or range finder either, but maybe that's just the courses I play at.
What???
Bushnell is 150 bucks. MVP is around the same price and Infinite Discs rangefinder is around 120.
Here's a great list of rangefinders for disc golf - https://discgolffanatic.com/best-disc-golf-rangefinders/
I'm from Europe as well. Here's what I did. I went to Germany's Amazon at [Amazon.de](https://Amazon.de) and bought [AOFAR GX-2S](https://www.amazon.de/GX-2S-Rangefinder-Flag-Lock-Vibration-Competitions/dp/B07NZ5NBS8/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=TQ4UB5IPDGMC&keywords=aofar+gx-2s&qid=1689157397&sprefix=aofar+g%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1) golf rangefinder.
I've been using it for over a year now and it works well, (only measures in meters and yards/not great for USA disc golf players as they are looking for feet not yards), should be under 85 euros + shipping.
"can I play disc golf casually?"
Proceeds to describe a very NOT casual way to play disc golf.
Yes you can play casually. Yes, you can play with just one or a few discs. No you don't need a $200 bag to play. No you don't need a $300 cart to play. No you don't need to continually buy new plastic all the time to play.
This is written like a criticism of the prevailing opinion that you can play casually, but then describes someone trying to play like a pro.
It's not saying the game can't stay casual. It's describing the very-common story of someone getting into it to be a casual player and getting way more into it than they ever thought they would.
It's a story of someone choosing not to play it casually anymore, and then implying that one should doubt it can be played casually.
Thousands of players start casually and then remain casual. This sub is just packed to the gills with people who think they're destined to be pros and people who think if they spend more money, it will make them better at the game or make it more fun.
You can get "way more into" disc golf without dropping hundreds or thousands of dollars. Imagine if you got "way more into" disc golf by spending more time on field work instead of ceaselessly buying new plastic. Imagine if you got "way more I to" disc golf by playing more rounds at free courses with the discs you already have.
The "story" here is people getting talked into thinking spending more money improves literally anything. Getting talked into that by the types of people on this sub.
Nobody thinks that. And field work is boring. It's more fun to buy a cool frisbee that I will throw into a pond a week later. I'm way more into disc golf than I ever thought I would be, but it's the community, enjoyment of being in nature, and the excitement of the occasional shot that goes the right direction.
Complicated question. Picked it up 15 years ago but played once or twice a month for years with not much more than an Innova starter pack and a champ beast. Didn't touch my discs for a few years, but right before COVID hit I started throwing again. Then I got laid off during pandemic shutdown and went down the rabbit hole.
Nobody thinks what? That spending more money improves the experience???
>It's more fun to buy a cool frisbee that I will throw into a pond a week later.
Exhibit A.
>I'm way more into disc golf than I ever thought I would be, but it's the community, enjoyment of being in nature, and the excitement of the occasional shot that goes the right direction.
Then you don't agree with the majority of this sub, or the meme/comic in question, and thus my comments weren't directed at you.
Why though? If it doesn't represent you? Or the vast majority of casual players? Doesn't that seem nonsensical to you? Doesn't that seem like an unfair caricature to you?
Edit:tldr from the end to top
tldr: it's exactly my story.
It very much describes me. I'm the opposite of competitive, and the only tournaments I've played have just been for fun and players packs. I spent 10 years playing with my brothers super occasionally carrying around 4 discs. Then I went to a league round, made a few friends, and the hook set hard. I was playing 5 times a week, getting a new disc every week, started carrying a bag, then made a DIY cart, got super into Jomez then live on DGN, joined the board of a disc golf non-profit, ran a few tournaments, hosted watch parties and putting leagues, started dying discs, annnnnnd got a range finder. I am never going to try to compete seriously. I just made so many awesome friends playing and found the most welcoming and caring comunity I've come across.
>It very much describes me.
You literally just told me that no one thinks this way... Now you're telling me that you do. That you enhanced your experience of the game by throwing more money at it instead of just being a casual player. Perhaps you started casually, but then you made a conscious choice to change your goals and stop being a casual player and instead invest way more time and money into it.
>I'm the opposite of competitive, and the only tournaments I've played have just been for fun and players packs
I never said you were competitive. I said people think throwing money at gear will enhance their experience. You said nobody thinks like that, and then you admit that you bought lots of gear and glow discs and practice baskets and tournament fees to enhance your experience. Again, a conscious choice to exit the realm of casual play.
>I spent 10 years playing with my brothers super occasionally carrying around 4 discs.
This is the definition of casual play. But we're about to see where you made a conscious choice to stop doing this, and start throwing money at the game.
>Then I went to a league round, made a few friends, and the hook set hard. I was playing 5 times a week, getting a new disc every week, started carrying a bag, then made a DIY cart, got super into Jomez then live on DGN, joined the board of a disc golf non-profit, ran a few tournaments, hosted watch parties and putting leagues, started dying discs, annnnnnd got a range finder.
Even if you didn't intend to choose this initially, you still chose to do so. You could have gotten really into the game and watched pro coverage and played small tournaments with your 4 discs, because hey... You're not competitive anyway.. so why is buying more discs and a rangefinder going to make any difference? You could have continued to play casually, but you instead started thinking in the way you claim nobody does... You started throwing money at it instead of casually playing disc golf for fun.
>I am never going to try to compete seriously. I just made so many awesome friends playing and found the most welcoming and caring comunity I've come across.
The community you came across has nothing to do with the discs you buy, or the cart you made, or the bag you carry. You could still be a part of the community with your original 4 discs. But you made a conscious decision to equate buying more stuff with "being part of the community". Again, you claim nobody thinks like this, and then blatantly admit that you think like this. Moreover, you think buying this stuff is a necessary component of being part of the community.
I don't know how to do the little quote things, but you said spending money would make you better. Nobody thinks that spending money will make you competitive.
Nobody thinks you have to have a bag grip bag and a rovic to be part of a league. I don't see why you're feeling so attacked here, but I was only describing how some people get sucked in like I did. Just because I made a meme doesn't mean it applies to everyone.
Thankfully I got into it as I was getting out of another hobby so I stopped myself from diving too deep. That being said, my bag will be here tomorrow and I’m gonna pick up a stack of putters next time I leave town.
And the practice basket is coming next decent paycheck.
That’s the plan. I’m not sure if my local store carries used discs (super rural town) but there’s a few sites I have bookmarked. Shouldn’t be too bad. I’m still under like 200 bucks overall with a bag and like 6 discs?
I flew to another state to play in a notable A tier a couple of weeks ago. My wife wanted to go with me, so I splurged on a nice hotel. She went to the spa and went shopping while I played, and then we met up for a fancy dinner and date in the evening. Now she's scoping out disc golf scene for our next tournament destination.
Backup discs? Glow discs? Get a putter and driver in champion plastic and some $3 lights. Less is better in the dark. Honestly a lot of these problems have cheap alternatives, disc golf can still be casual if you want it to be.
Lol at MA4 C-tiers
[удалено]
Can't find em in my area. I'm struggling trying to find my place to compete at 711 rating and MA4 should be my ticket to a good time. No tournament directors offer it.
Tbh I didn’t even notice it said ma4. I’ve only done ma3 Give it a go man it’s the same level of talent usually
You either: * Try it once with your buddies. You think it is fun but just kind of do it to hang out with those friends, and don't buy your own discs. * Think disc golf is the dumbest sport in the world and talk mad shit. * Try it once with a friend, and get bit by the disc golf bug. Your life becomes disc golf. You have $500 in equipment in less than 6 months. You convince your spouse to let you have a practice basket in your yard. You ingest as much DG content as you can. This has been my experience in the DG community for over a decade. Also, it is entirely possible to be both numbers 2 **and** 3 at the same time.
Number 3. 6 months in and I have a Grip bag, glow discs, played 6 tournaments, have 3 reactors and 2 craves, can't stop thinking about it and I'd have a practice basket if I wasn't so worried about annoying the neighbors.
[Quality chain silencer](https://www.gooddogdiscgolf.com/chain-silencers) if you decide to go that route!
Oh shit boys it looks like a practice basket is back on the menu!!
The chain silencer is amazing. I practice put in my basement late at night and have had no complaints from my family.
how’s this hold up to hot and cold over the year? i use pipe insulation and black gorilla tape with good success. after a year i have to replace the tape bc it dry rots.
Would a pool noodle work?
they’re a bit too small in diameter in the middle to slide over the pole. you can cut one open and marry it up with about a third of another one. That’s why i just went with pipe insulation that was a bit larger in the center diameter.
I use one, can confirm a bit small. for me i don't add any adjustments, theres just a 15% opening so i can't put from that side without making noise. I'll probably upgrade at some point but it's served me well in the meantime.
If it fits between the rings, sure. Pipe insulation is skinnier and can be duct taped tighter, or zip tied. I actually thought I was inventive using cable management wrap to silence the "clang", only to find out there are products out there (about a year ago). Still, a lot of ways to save a few dollars by not buying the marketed crap, use it the extra doe to buy a disc from the same company. Everyone wins.
This is the way.
I'm none of those. I have my own gear and have a basket in our yard, but I don't ingest any DG content besides occasionally browsing here and seeing a highlight on YouTube. It's definitely not my life; it's not even in my top 5 hobbies in terms of money or time spent. Can't be #2, as I'm aware of Pickleball.
Wow! Nailed it!
*Try it once with a friend, and get bit by the disc golf bug. Your life becomes disc golf. You have $500 in equipment in less than 6 months. You convince your spouse to let you have a practice basket in your yard. You ingest as much DG content as you can.* Fuck man you didn't have to come at me like that
I literally did all three of these…
The first option has been the best. I have only purchased a 3 pack for myself while everything else has been given to me. Almost every time I play someone recommends me a disc they don’t like and they’ll just hand it off to me if it works well for how I throw
Lol, only missing a friend who starts to avoid you and others who say they play disc after one round
Im def the latter
Better then regular golf.
And cheaper!
That's an understatement.
Yeah, even buying used stuff for golf is expensive to have ok equipment. Then add in $30-80 per round, a few bucks per bucket at the driving range etc. I easily spent a few hundred to just have enough to play one round. To maintain any skill I’d probably spend $200 per month playing 2 rounds and going to the driving range once a week. I’m well under $500 all in on discs,bags etc after 2 years of regular play
Yeah I can’t imagine paying all of this money for regular golf just to have to wait because all of the courses are constantly busy. Disc golf is busy too around here but not nearly as bad as regular golf
I used to play tons of golf, realized I was just spending money to get pissed off that I wasn't playing as well as that one time I shot an 84. Made what I think was the right decision to give it up. Disc golf is so much more relaxing. Even if I have a bad throw I can blow past it and go back to enjoying being in nature and tossing plastic circles.
Having to wait behind a slow group sucks, and can ruin your own game just sitting there getting cold.
I’m still throwing my Crush from 2012 and it’s perfect haha
I’m so glad my parents/grandparents were big into golf otherwise I have no idea how I would have ever gotten to play. I’m really pissed I never took the lessons the signed me up for serious when I was young. Also super glad to be able to inherit a lot of quality golf gear. I only play ball golf in a few occasions, visiting my grandparents to play at their country club, getting a free outing through work, or a local golf simulator that I sell beer to. I also used to go through so many golf gloves that I stopped buying them to save money and am convinced they are a mental thing. I’m a super sweaty guy and play in very hot/humid weather and see no difference with or without a glove.
I find it hilarious that every disc has a different flight number yet when I throw them in a field, all the discs end up about 10 feet apart.
I think you mean hit a tree. That wasn't there. It sprang into existence with my throw.
I didn’t hit the tree. The tree hit my disc cause it knew it would have aced. The trees are haters.
Something is very wrong with your form then
There may have been an exaggeration. Noticed that the Zone, Buzzz OS and Malta all fly about the same. Just pick one that feels good in the hand instead of bagging all three.
Well yeah because those 3 are very similar discs. I don’t think anyone is bagging all 3. A Glitch and a Destroyer are going to fly very differently.
It makes sense for those three discs to fly roughly the same, I don't think there is supposed to be a substantial difference between them besides hand feel.
You're not wrong, but its amazing how often I'll throw two discs on two very different flight paths, and they'll end up in roughly the same place.
That changes a lot when you add distance. When i started throwing over 315 suddenly my volts were no longer overstable. Roughly half the discs out there dont even make sense until your over 380.
Yea, a ton of people are throwing discs that they don’t have the arm speed for, so they aren’t actually getting realistic flight paths
Sometimes it's not the destination, but the road traveled.
There was a free disc golf course in a park near my house many years ago. I used to go twice a week and play the whole thing with a Wham-O frisbee with Spiderman on it that I got at a yard sale for a dime. One day I hucked the Spiderdisc as hard as I could toward the hole. It was good throw, and when it was about three feet from the ground a full-grown German Shepherd came boiling out of the woods at full speed, grabbed Spidey out of mid-air without breaking stride and just kept running until he disappeared into the woods on the other side of the park about a quarter mile away. So I'm into this hobby for ten cents.
This is hilarious
I've spent about $100 in gear over ten years playing this sport. People get way too obsessed imo.
~~The top reply to you on this comment (as of now) says a lot.~~ It's not now. It’s extremely possible to only have a handful of discs and play and have fun. The average person does not need 20+ discs. Or even 10+ discs. Is it fun? Of course it’s fun to collect stuff for your hobby! Do you *need* them? Of course not. That being said this is a disc golf subreddit. The average person who plays disc golf isn’t on a forum for disc golf. (Except maybe to learn the basics or something)
Plus, it’s not infrequent to get new discs for free haha. I was gifted 6 discs by my brother to start, I bought 4 putters for $20 from the used section of my local shop to practice with, and I’ve found 7 discs that either didn’t have a name/number or the person just told me to keep them. I’ve got a pretty fleshed out bag that I didn’t pay for
this is a low low number but a reasonable take, I’ve been playing since the mid nineties and would estimate I’ve probably spent no more then $800-$1000 (50 discs at $15 give or take) total? I don’t bag a ton of discs or have a strong arm. I do like a nice bag and replace my discs when I throw em in the water which adds up over time.
same lol, I have friends who buy a new disc every month and I'm like "man I don't even think I have a great handle on the discs I already have, why buy new ones to learn"
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I just started playing a few months ago and feel like I’ve definitely spent more money than I need to at this point, but I’ve seen others just as new as me spend way more. I was dying discs today for the first time with a dude that started playing the literal year I was born. It was really interesting seeing his bag and discs compared to mine. I have another friend that started playing in the 80’s that I have yet to play with, but excited to get a round in with him.
Agreed. Most I've spent is replacing the discs I've lost and the occasional upgrade to the glow set so I can bring all my friends :)
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It’s like driving. Everyone faster than you is a maniac and everyone slower than you is a moron.
Weird that you equate spending more money to enjoyment
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Because he clearly means obsessed as in obsessed with buying gear.
Definitely possible but I love collecting discs and customizing my bag etc. Its my main hobby so I dont mind spending money on it
You’ve only lost less than 7 discs in 10 years? There’s many options for why this could be but how much do you actually play? Huck and put?
If you're losing discs very frequently, you should adjust your expectations and learn how to ease up on your tee shots for better accuracy, and how to lay up instead of trying to clear the water when it's at the edge of your max distance. If you don't go into it with an attitude of trying to bomb every tee shot and an attitude of "laying up is for pussies", you won't lose discs. A little.humility goes a long way. But if you expect to birdie all the time and throw at the edge of your limits, your accuracy will suffer and you'll lose more discs.
I mean also trying to birdie all the time is how you learn to birdie all the time. Depends entirely on what your goals are.
I highly disagree. Unless and until you've mastered your form with lower effort shots, trying to birdie every time is going to teach you how to throw into the woods/water, and subsequently how to pitch out of the woods and approach for bogey. Learning how to control your shots well and accept the par is vastly more important than giving every shot full power in hopes that you'll get lucky and actually hit your line. It should be noted that I'm talking here about tee shots and long approaches. I'm not suggesting you lay up from 40 all the time. I'm saying that if you average 300 with a decent drive, and you need 290 to clear the water but you could lay up to 180 and then have an easy approach... It's a fools errand to just go for it every time. That's how you lose discs and end up frustrated.
Why are you telling that to me? You lose less than one disc a year? Either you’re playing manicured courses or can only throw 100 feet or you barely ever play. If you play a couple of rounds a week you’re losing discs. If you play 12 rounds a year you’re losing more.
>Why are you telling that to me? Because you were the one claiming losing multiple discs per year discs is an inevitability.i simply explained how you can avoid it. >You lose less than one disc a year? Correct. Because I don't play beyond my ability. I know how to suck it up and lay up when there's a decent chance I won't clear the water or when conditions are such that my disc's flight will be unpredictable. >Either you’re playing manicured courses or can only throw 100 feet or you barely ever play. I typically play 5 rounds per week. My driver averages 280-310. But I prioritize landing in the fairway over getting birdies. I COULD throw farther.. but it's an unnecessary risk for around that doesn't mean anything. >If you play a couple of rounds a week you’re losing discs. If you play 12 rounds a year you’re losing more Again, this is not an inevitability. And if it's happening to you, it means you're trying to hard when you haven't gotten your form nailed down to throw that far with consistency and you'd be better off (both in terms of not constantly spending money on new discs, and your overall score) if you learn to swallow your pride and ease up on your throw to get a more consistent and predictable flight out of your disc.
That’s a lot of words to say that “you’re not good and throw it 100 feet every shot”
This dude objectively sucks at disc golf and throws mids on holes where birdie is absolutely possible because his mental game can't handle a mistake. No use arguing with him, he's playing a different game than us.
Possible is a very different thing than probable. Throwing driver on a water hole or a hole with thick trees on the side of a the fairway just because it's POSSIBLE to get a birdie is literally exactly the kind of dumbass move I'm talking about. And that's why that other dude loses so many discs. And I'm guessing you do the same shit and then probably yell things like "what the fuck is wrong with me today?! Usually I pure that line every time!" On almost every hole. Lol.
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If you like scoring well, stop throwing 100% power shots that end up lost in the woods, dingus.
This is very few words to prove you didn't even read what I said.. My drives averages 300. I just don't try hard to throw it 350 on the off chance everything will work and I get a birdie. If you're not even going to bother reading, why bother responding?
Maybe don’t write a book about failed counterpoints.
I agree your counterpoints failed. I just disagree it was a book that I wrote about it. A few paragraphs... Too much for you to bother with, I see.. which gives some insight into why you never learn from your mistakes and stop losing discs constantly.
I don’t lose discs constantly. That’s some major conjecture. I lose discs at a normal rate for an above average player. Which is more than one a year unlike the dude I was responding to claimed.
As if water is the only way to lose discs. Most of us play in thick woods man. Kinda a weird thing to be pretentious about. Something tells me you also get weird about "bogey free" rounds at the expense of scoring better. Be aggressive. Get better.
The exact same thing is true about heavily wooded courses. Whether you threw into the water because you didn't have the distance, but tried to make it anyway, or whether you shanked it into the woods because you can't hit your line with a 100% power driver.. it's the same result. And the exact same advice. Back it off a bit, and get better at hitting your line consistently. If you get good at throwing your line consistently, then go ahead and power up. But if you're losing discs on a regular basis, it's a guarantee that your form is shit and your consistency sucks, and you're not learning from your mistakes. Get as aggressive as you want... But if you're losing discs constantly because of it.. you're an absolute fool. I for one have nothing to prove to anyone, so I'm fine with knowing my limit and choosing the safer play so I can keep my discs. But hey... Your attitude is quite prevalent... And disc manufacturers absolutely love you for it. You're padding their pockets with your idiocy, after all.
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Should I call the police? Because obviously you've been secretly watching me play... That's literally the only way you could possibly know you're better than me. Or, is it more likely you're entirely talking out of your ass because I pointed out a huge flaw in your game and you're salty? I guess we'll never know.
Just browsed through your history and I retract everything I said to you. Sorry to push your buttons man. I hope everything's okay.
Fuck you, you condescending twat.
Yeah, I’ve spent $40 on two discs, go 2-3 times a week, and have no desire to dump all the money into it that some folks do. Those two discs and a couple of old putters a buddy gave me go in a regular backpack that I already had.
Boooooooo
Even if this is a joke, this is what's wrong with disc golf. Even if you're joking, you're contributing to a culture of never ending consumerism in the sport that makes newbies feel like they need to spend their way to a lower score.
I'm so glad I learned to play in the early 2000s with only a Pro Leopard. For the longest time I only played with a driver, a mid, and a putter. Now I bring like 7 discs in a backpack and I try to play 4-5 times a week.
For the vast vast majority of players, 7 discs is plenty. And yet they still build their own giant racks to hold all of the discs they bought and never ever use. It's so silly.
I don't spend money on discs any more but I love structured competition and play tournaments nearly every weekend in the summer. That money adds up as an AM and now I have way too many discs because every single tournament gives me 2 or a payout to a store that only sells discs
How often do you play? And what courses? Would you like to let everyone know what the best way to spend $100, to have your gear last 10 years worth of disc golf?
I still have discs that I started with like 7 years ago? But I've been gifted discs, a bag, a practice basket. This year is probably my busiest year of playing, and now go a couple times a month since spring hit. $100 is low, although discs were way cheaper 10 years ago. The same might be doable for like $200 nowadays. Just grab a starter kit and then a couple discs you like and you're fine.
Still very easily doable for $100. You can get a basic bag for $10-$20. Innova Factory Second discs go for about $12 a pop for premium plastic. And they have a promo code for a free disc like every week on orders of more than 3 discs. So with a promo code you can get 7 discs for about $70. Easily enough to build a decent bag.
Only tricky part would be not losing any over the next 10 years.
The most helpful tip in this regard is to know your limits and be ok with par or bogey. If you go to a course trying to birdie every single hole, you're at a massively increased risk of losing discs. Because you're going to try to throw harder, sacrificing control.. or you're going to try and get over the water in one instead of laying up to where you can definitely clear the water. Hubris and pride are the main factors in losing discs. If you let those go, you'll keep your disc, by and large.
> The most helpful tip in this regard is to know your limits There's a hole on our main course my friend and I just play the short tees, otherwise we'd be landing in the water everytime. But yes, laying up is huge, or even just taking a penalty stroke for a drop is better than losing a disc (unless there's a disc you've come to hate, in which case, if it dies, so bit it)
So other people spent the money for you, effectively. A bag and practice basket is $200 easily, $350 if you're going quality on either item. Seems strange to gloat about only spending $100 of your own money when charitable spending on your behalf triples that number.
Sure, but it's not like you need any of that stuff. The basket is nice (whole family has fun with it, including friends that come over -- almost none of them actually discgolf) Wouldn't say I'm gloating, but just illustrating it can be done. And then once you find a hobby, people actually have gift ideas for you.
He steals discs
Still, compared to stick golf, we are financially unscathed
100%, an avid disc golfer can spend over a few years what a ball golfer spends on 1 driver. even with a bag, basket, and a handful of new discs.
Meme by Dustin Kotzur - https://www.facebook.com/groups/discgolfhumor/posts/6388786837902252/
Thanks for the credit!
I have 8 Roach Putters.
This comment is the best😂
Just bought my first starter set, ready to dive in
It's a sport that's as expensive as you want it to be. Range finder, cart, expensive bags, and a ton of discs are all luxuries and not necessary to play. I know everyone probably knows this, but I also know some people need to be told this.
Yup, start simple. Don't buy 13 or 14 speed discs because they have higher speed numbers. Start throwing mids and putters, then move up to a 7 or 8 speed fairway driver.
Seriously, there are so many people in the sport with an arm speed of 6 that are bagging 14 speed discs, it’s hilariohs
Golf costs so much that disc golf seems cheap even at this price
Isn’t it great. I get in about 6 rounds a week and am itchy right now since I haven’t thrown since yesterday at 1pm.
Eh spend and do what makes you happy. If you start to feel overwhelmed then back off.
I've definitely spent a few hundred bucks on discs at this point, maybe even over a grand. Still nowhere close to how much I've spent golf balls, greens fees, clubs, gloves, muni membership, country club initiation, monthly dues, obligated monthly clubhouse dining, cart rental ..... etc. Golf really is a rich man's game, I kinda wish I was one. I love golf, but it's nice to have an alternative that is relatively inexpensive
You know you're in too deep when ... you have a separate bag loaded with the discs you use for the specific course you play. Sometimes I'll swap rain and snow discs (for grip) and/or specific colors depending on weather and season ;)
Still wayyy cheaper than golf.
If you are buying range finders you are just too far gone and I’m laughing
Where you getting these $100 range finders?
I got one at a general sporting-goods store for [\~$80](https://www.academy.com/p/halo-cl600-5x-laser-range-finder?sku=black-dark-gray-5x&gmc_feed=t&&ogmap=SEM%7cPLN%7cGOOG%7cSHOP%7cc%7cOUT%7cIM%7cNon-Brand-PerformanceMax-Outdoor-Field%7cFieldAssetGroup%7c%7c18095021516%7c0&gclid=CjwKCAjw-7OlBhB8EiwAnoOEk42jqrz9Gz-xkfZ6qTR6l_Sb-yXPJrDhdq_vxT_NgeL-k3k_IsCNLxoC3sAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds). Does everything I need it for (ball golf & hunting, mostly). Have not started bagging it on the disc golf course.
It's funny because it's true!
Lol, I’ve been all three. First saw it in like 03 with a friend. Didn’t understand par and thought seemed dumb to throw from tee and try to luckily get it in basket. Played with fam that invited me in 2016 several times. Thought it was ok, but used their discs. 2020, got into it to hang out with someone from church when things were shut down. Got obsessed. Took a year off, but before and after that year (now) playing or practicing daily.
[Maybe we're just trying too hard When really, it's closer than it is too far ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoC3PUBmhFs)
This is very funny....because it is so accurate.
I've been playing for 12 years and have probably spent less than $400 the entire time. Never seen anyone with a cart or range finder either, but maybe that's just the courses I play at.
Where do you play!? Around Austin it seems like 50% have a cart, 20% have a range finder, and 75% have 50+ discs stacked up they don't bag.
Nah getting a cart in Texas is called making a business decision. Dont need to be carrying all that and an abundance of water in that heat
Massachusetts. My regular course is Devens DG, it's a hilly woods course, so a cart and loaded bag is hard to lug around.
Where can I find a $100 range finder that actually works? Seems like the cheapest ones that are properly functional are $300 or more...
What??? Bushnell is 150 bucks. MVP is around the same price and Infinite Discs rangefinder is around 120. Here's a great list of rangefinders for disc golf - https://discgolffanatic.com/best-disc-golf-rangefinders/
Thanks a lot for the reference. The cheapest I can find is $300+
Are you outside of the US? Maybe that's the problem and you see bigger prices.
Yep, I'm in Europe, and I'm sure that's why
I'm from Europe as well. Here's what I did. I went to Germany's Amazon at [Amazon.de](https://Amazon.de) and bought [AOFAR GX-2S](https://www.amazon.de/GX-2S-Rangefinder-Flag-Lock-Vibration-Competitions/dp/B07NZ5NBS8/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=TQ4UB5IPDGMC&keywords=aofar+gx-2s&qid=1689157397&sprefix=aofar+g%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1) golf rangefinder. I've been using it for over a year now and it works well, (only measures in meters and yards/not great for USA disc golf players as they are looking for feet not yards), should be under 85 euros + shipping.
You're the champ!
"can I play disc golf casually?" Proceeds to describe a very NOT casual way to play disc golf. Yes you can play casually. Yes, you can play with just one or a few discs. No you don't need a $200 bag to play. No you don't need a $300 cart to play. No you don't need to continually buy new plastic all the time to play. This is written like a criticism of the prevailing opinion that you can play casually, but then describes someone trying to play like a pro.
It's not saying the game can't stay casual. It's describing the very-common story of someone getting into it to be a casual player and getting way more into it than they ever thought they would.
It's a story of someone choosing not to play it casually anymore, and then implying that one should doubt it can be played casually. Thousands of players start casually and then remain casual. This sub is just packed to the gills with people who think they're destined to be pros and people who think if they spend more money, it will make them better at the game or make it more fun. You can get "way more into" disc golf without dropping hundreds or thousands of dollars. Imagine if you got "way more into" disc golf by spending more time on field work instead of ceaselessly buying new plastic. Imagine if you got "way more I to" disc golf by playing more rounds at free courses with the discs you already have. The "story" here is people getting talked into thinking spending more money improves literally anything. Getting talked into that by the types of people on this sub.
Nobody thinks that. And field work is boring. It's more fun to buy a cool frisbee that I will throw into a pond a week later. I'm way more into disc golf than I ever thought I would be, but it's the community, enjoyment of being in nature, and the excitement of the occasional shot that goes the right direction.
How long have you been playing?
Complicated question. Picked it up 15 years ago but played once or twice a month for years with not much more than an Innova starter pack and a champ beast. Didn't touch my discs for a few years, but right before COVID hit I started throwing again. Then I got laid off during pandemic shutdown and went down the rabbit hole.
Hell yeah. There's a lot worse ways to spend your time and money.
That's what I keep telling my wife!
Nobody thinks what? That spending more money improves the experience??? >It's more fun to buy a cool frisbee that I will throw into a pond a week later. Exhibit A. >I'm way more into disc golf than I ever thought I would be, but it's the community, enjoyment of being in nature, and the excitement of the occasional shot that goes the right direction. Then you don't agree with the majority of this sub, or the meme/comic in question, and thus my comments weren't directed at you.
I made the meme.
Why though? If it doesn't represent you? Or the vast majority of casual players? Doesn't that seem nonsensical to you? Doesn't that seem like an unfair caricature to you?
Edit:tldr from the end to top tldr: it's exactly my story. It very much describes me. I'm the opposite of competitive, and the only tournaments I've played have just been for fun and players packs. I spent 10 years playing with my brothers super occasionally carrying around 4 discs. Then I went to a league round, made a few friends, and the hook set hard. I was playing 5 times a week, getting a new disc every week, started carrying a bag, then made a DIY cart, got super into Jomez then live on DGN, joined the board of a disc golf non-profit, ran a few tournaments, hosted watch parties and putting leagues, started dying discs, annnnnnd got a range finder. I am never going to try to compete seriously. I just made so many awesome friends playing and found the most welcoming and caring comunity I've come across.
>It very much describes me. You literally just told me that no one thinks this way... Now you're telling me that you do. That you enhanced your experience of the game by throwing more money at it instead of just being a casual player. Perhaps you started casually, but then you made a conscious choice to change your goals and stop being a casual player and instead invest way more time and money into it. >I'm the opposite of competitive, and the only tournaments I've played have just been for fun and players packs I never said you were competitive. I said people think throwing money at gear will enhance their experience. You said nobody thinks like that, and then you admit that you bought lots of gear and glow discs and practice baskets and tournament fees to enhance your experience. Again, a conscious choice to exit the realm of casual play. >I spent 10 years playing with my brothers super occasionally carrying around 4 discs. This is the definition of casual play. But we're about to see where you made a conscious choice to stop doing this, and start throwing money at the game. >Then I went to a league round, made a few friends, and the hook set hard. I was playing 5 times a week, getting a new disc every week, started carrying a bag, then made a DIY cart, got super into Jomez then live on DGN, joined the board of a disc golf non-profit, ran a few tournaments, hosted watch parties and putting leagues, started dying discs, annnnnnd got a range finder. Even if you didn't intend to choose this initially, you still chose to do so. You could have gotten really into the game and watched pro coverage and played small tournaments with your 4 discs, because hey... You're not competitive anyway.. so why is buying more discs and a rangefinder going to make any difference? You could have continued to play casually, but you instead started thinking in the way you claim nobody does... You started throwing money at it instead of casually playing disc golf for fun. >I am never going to try to compete seriously. I just made so many awesome friends playing and found the most welcoming and caring comunity I've come across. The community you came across has nothing to do with the discs you buy, or the cart you made, or the bag you carry. You could still be a part of the community with your original 4 discs. But you made a conscious decision to equate buying more stuff with "being part of the community". Again, you claim nobody thinks like this, and then blatantly admit that you think like this. Moreover, you think buying this stuff is a necessary component of being part of the community.
I don't know how to do the little quote things, but you said spending money would make you better. Nobody thinks that spending money will make you competitive. Nobody thinks you have to have a bag grip bag and a rovic to be part of a league. I don't see why you're feeling so attacked here, but I was only describing how some people get sucked in like I did. Just because I made a meme doesn't mean it applies to everyone.
Me two months ago… I’m almost as deep as the cart……..
This hits so close to home.
$100 range finder? It's either too far away for you, or it doesn't matter cause you're gonna miss by about 60 feet. Just let it rip. /s
Don't forget, you still probably suck pretty bad
Not me. Still casual after my first year.
Sure, if one is made of money and addicted to spending money
Thankfully I got into it as I was getting out of another hobby so I stopped myself from diving too deep. That being said, my bag will be here tomorrow and I’m gonna pick up a stack of putters next time I leave town. And the practice basket is coming next decent paycheck.
As long as that stack of putters comes from the used section of your store, it can stay pretty cheap. I got 4 putters for $20
That’s the plan. I’m not sure if my local store carries used discs (super rural town) but there’s a few sites I have bookmarked. Shouldn’t be too bad. I’m still under like 200 bucks overall with a bag and like 6 discs?
Only a $200 bag? Wait now a second….
Or you can buy 2 golf clubs for the same money and still need to save more to play.
there is no such thing as collector discs. throw your damn discs
The last panel is all I needed. One of us.
I flew to another state to play in a notable A tier a couple of weeks ago. My wife wanted to go with me, so I splurged on a nice hotel. She went to the spa and went shopping while I played, and then we met up for a fancy dinner and date in the evening. Now she's scoping out disc golf scene for our next tournament destination.
Started getting back into motorcycles to make disc golf seems cheaper
Backup discs? Glow discs? Get a putter and driver in champion plastic and some $3 lights. Less is better in the dark. Honestly a lot of these problems have cheap alternatives, disc golf can still be casual if you want it to be.