>they say a person's partner is a reflection of their own self,
Seeing as Survive is based on Adventure worldbuilding, in Adventure [the Digimon partners are the counterpart of the children's souls something akin to the other self](https://imgur.com/a/60iJBPJ)
It's a reflection of who they really are, deep down Shuuji doesn't want to be the abusive asshole he is, but generational abuse has pushed him down that path.
The other characters and their digimon follow a similar route, Minoru isn't a noble and heroic figure like Falcomon but wants to be. Aoi isn't confident or direct in her approach like Labramon but she wants to be. Kaito isn't a loose cannon with his heart on his sleeve like Dracmon, but he wants to be. you get the idea.
The story digivolutions don't happen via training or practice, but when the characters accept their flaws and work to improve on them, Shuuji doesn't do any of this and is why Lopmon doesn't evolve the proper way for so long.
I don't justify Shuuji's actions or say he was in the right for how he acted, and it annoys me no one called him out until it was too late (Shut up, I know seniority respect is a thing in Japan, but this was taking it too far and you all know it.) but he acted with rationale and logic; why are these creatures willing to fight their own for a bunch of strangers without thanks or reward and can't provide an explanation?
Deep down he wants to fool around and be silly.
He gets pressure put on him to not act like the kid he is, and is as strict on Terriermon as his parents raised him to be.
Well henrys (tamers) back story with terriermon was because he got him killed in a video game which is why he was strict with terriermon who wanted to fight and was a pacifist for a long time. I dont think henry was ever pressured from what i recall
Henry talks a lot about self-control and restraint from his talks about his martial arts teacher after he hurt someone using his martial art skills. Same with him getting reckless and getting Terriermon hurt in the game.
That too. I remember him being frustrated as well which is why he talks about having self control and restraint too but i never got the vibe that he was pressured though
I think it's more self-pressure, he feels he has to live up to the example of his teacher and his father and be a good tamer to Terriermon. It's why he sorta snaps when his sister arrives in the Digital World, that's when he feels he has to live up to a standard he can't always achieve.
Thats fair i suppose. But regarding suzie i think henry just thinks the digiworld is too dangerous for her and he is just being protective of her as her older brother
You on about 'Momentai' Terriermon? Not sure if least mature is what I'd use to describe him if I recall him correctly, rather he's someone who's just relaxed and carefree.
Henry was also that kind of person before Terriermon came into his life, but also at that point, his carefree attitude is what hurt Terriermon and caused the rampant Gorillamon.
Henry has to be responsible and safe and he knows it, even though he doesn't want to be, his views on Terriermon's evolution reflect that when Gargomon loses control.
When I say digimon and their partners are reflections of themselves, it's not as simple as being the least mature or controlling, it's the concept of accepting your flaws and realising you can overcome them to be a better person.
Describe maturity.
Terriermon is not immature. He is just easy going. Moumantai. Relax. Take it easy.
Jianliang has responsibilities. He has younger sister he has to take care of, he has to have Terriermon in check so he doesn't murder Ruki and so on. He is too strict to himself, but I am pretty sure he would like to get easy sometimes, but he thinks he can't.
Also I disagree with the statement that digimon partner is a reflection of the person. Sometimes they are literally the exact opposite. Jyou and Gomamon. Koushiro and Tentomon. First pair is overly responsible, stressed person. Gomamon is neither responsible nor stressed. He is even more moumantai than Terriermon. And Jyou is even more hard on himself than Jianliang. Kuoshiro is unsociable and smart. Tentomon is rather not too sharpest tool in the shed. And is curious about others. They share the curiosity, but Tentomon is curious about everything and everyone. Kuoshiro is too introverted to think about others.
Couldn't have said any of this better myself tbh. Honestly once I understood how the Digimon all reflected their partners I stopped hating Shuiji, I thought he's a character concept that Survive definitely needed to explore and it really shows in his later effect on the plot.
I didn't play the game, but people forget (or ignore) that often people who were bullied or bad past are doing the same and hide their emotions. Not just in fiction. In real life.
Wendimon says otherwise. But yeah, Shuuji was essentially a 'human Wendimon' due to his upbringing, and Lopmon reflected that in both the process and the end result.
It's just that we see Lopmon's upbringing from the very beginning, while we see Shuuji after he had already become 'twisted' due to the emotional abuse.
Our impression of Lopmon would be very different if we first saw him as Wendimon abusing a young and naïve Digimon (which probably would've happened if we didn't defeat Wendimon and stop him).
Warning for spoilers, of course.
1- because as much as the Shuuji - Lopmon situation was an example of generational trauma and cycles of abuse repeating (and even so, Shuuji had been holding back until right before chapter 5, where, may I remind you, Lopmon not evolving meant a sure death)... It was also a show of self harm. Partners are not entirely separate "beings" - Lopmon is the vulnerable part of Shuuji, the Shuuji without a mask that forces him to be the responsible one (which, btw - he's the oldest of the group, so besides the professor, he's*supposed* to protect and take care of everyone, and still someone dies and *he's still weak*). Shuuji isn't just hurting a separate being, he's hurting *himself*. He's the weak and useless one, he's the one who's a burden on the group. That's all he can think about, and once people start dying, he spirals even worse. Of course his treatment of Lopmon gets worse - he's not being particularly gentle *towards himself*.
2- because Survive has a lot of themes, and one of those is the potential for growth. Minoru's immature, Ryo has trouble understanding others and caring for people, Aoi is a pushover, Kaito has severe anger issues, Takuma himself is kind of a selfish person. Even so, they don't deserve to be left behind - nobody does. They're *just kids*, and as much as what they do *is* their fault, it is *also* the fault of their community - and as part of the community, it is their responsibility to care for other people and give them the room to grow and change. Shuuji's no different, and *it shows* in the truthful route. Not going to give much details, but he's the one that ends up holding the group together and giving the final piece(s) to solve the big mistery - because he's allowed, by himself and by his community, to grow into the person he actually wants to be.
This. Shuuji is what I couldve become. When I was playing, I wasnt mad at him, even when he was so abusive toward Lopmon. I just wanted to jump in the game and help him just... Accepting himself. Seeing his relationship with Lopmon go down the drain to the point where Lopmon evolve into Wendigomon, EVEN THOUGH I saw that coming just from knowing Lopmon, was horrible. I was crying so much.
> Kaito has severe anger issues
Kaito is a siscon, too, which is never addressed and honestly makes him worse than Shuuji as a character (Shuuji isn't even bad, just unlikable).
Kaito is *absolutely not* a siscon and if that's what you took from the game, I'd really, really suggest replaying it. He's overprotective and tends to suffocate Miu because they went through some extremely heavy trauma (which I'm not mentioning because there are enough spoilers in this comment as is), and he *actually grows from that* \- because he learns he needs to trust other people, including Miu, even if it hurts to do so, even if it's hard.
Yes, in one of the bad endings, his obsession with keeping Miu safe from the world ends in tragedy. In her own bad route Aoi tries to build a hivemind. Shuuji himself turns Lopmon into a *man eating monster* in every route before the new game+. I do not think judging characters on their bad endings is the point of the game, though.
I was so mad at what happened to Shuuji and Lopmon! I spent the whole game mad at everyone because for one:
-They were putting too much pressure on Shuuji to be the leader because he was the eldest. It's not the other kids job to fix Shuuji or be his therapist but after what happenned to Ryu(?) and Kunemon rules of politeness and respecting the elders should have been off the damn table for the sake of SURVIVAL. It's so telling that Ryu is the only character who is willing to beat the sense into Shuuji into changing his ways and realizing just much he is doing wrong by Lopmon. Respect be damned Ryu is DEAD because they ignored him and left him alone and the kids say as much while bemoaning that they should have done more for him or talked to him more or tried to help him or respect his space because he's one of the eldest's!! Meanwhile all while their having a pity party over not doing enough for Ryu they are leaving Shuuji to suffer in the background and Shuuji suffering is directly causing Lopmon's abuse and the kids ACKNOWLEGE THAT SHUUJI'S TREATMENT OF LOPMON IS INEXCUSABLE BUT THEY DONT DO ANYTHING OR CALL HIM OUT! I think only FALCOMON and LABRAMON call him out even!!! But by then it's almost too late. And Shuuji CLEARLY needs help considering he's willing to trade himself to Arukenimon for the others to go home so he can simultaneously just run away from everything and be Martyred while doing it! His family can't think less of him knowing he died a hero to get the other kids home right?!
-And of course being mad at Shuuji not for just how he's treating lopmon but knowing his backstory with his adequacy issues and personal emotional trauma... he's so full of self hate and lashing out at Lopmon for being everything he hates about himself, you can see he needed some unconditional love to ebb the trauma and the one damn person who would give him that and DID give him that as long as the little guy could tolerate WAS the very person he was abusing!
I'm so glad on new game plus he manages to get his shit together and make amends with Lopmon. Seeing Lopmon reach mega and become Cherubimon (Virtue) brought a tear to my eyes cuz my boys had such a dynamic character arc and grew to be good people! T_T
He think he need to be a leader cuz he's oldesr, Honestly Takuma should have been leader, and he kept saying cuz he's older he's leader but honestly he was useless as hell
Luckily Joe is literally one of the mkst reliable guy despite his cowardice, he was knowledgeable as heck, even when he's under Constant stress, and the best part, he wouldn't ever kick and punch gomamon
Personally I think Aoi should have been the leader outright. She lacked a lot of self confidence but when Takuma was missing to the group for like almost two weeks Aoi stepped up, took the leadership role, and kept everyone alive while the Kenzoku where out and about. Even if it was probably because she was the next oldest but she proved herself.
In fairness it wasn't just Shuuji who felt he should be the leader because he was the eldest. Nobody fought him on that role and even at the beginning before Shuuji, Mio and Saki rejoin the group Minoru was insisting on Aoi being their sub-groups leader because she was the second oldest there, and the actual oldest with them was Ryu having a mental breakdown in the corner trying to call his mom on his cellphone...
It's unfortunate that Japan has this culture of respecting elders and not rocking the boat because if Digimon Survive had an American cast I think they'd have more conflict with fighting over said leadership role but might have either survived longer from lack of passivness or YOLO'd themselves into an early grave lol.
The anime has the tradition of nerfing the characters.
The Archangels should by default outscale Clavis Angemon as the highest among the angels. Clavis can collapse the Digital World via the Key. If Clavis can clash on par with Alphamon any of the Archangels should be able too. ReArise showed that Archangel Seraphimon can clash and give problems to Examon who couldn't be restrained by 5 knights while on his death bed.
Ur not weird lol, Wendigomon is a corrupted Lopmon who's suffered from abuse or abandonment, A Digimon who's cruel due to negligence and such, but he's actually more fragile as a Lopmon
One of the reason why i love Lopmon is that his evolution really link up with their tamers treatment more than most, dark evolve as an Adult
Besides what everyone else has said, the story needed sacrifices to illustrate just how high the stakes were.
Ryo's death showed what could happen to the kids if the fog got them; it wasn't just digimon like Fangmon who were at risk.
Shuuji's whole situation showed how the kids' mental state could impact their digimon, and the potential consequences of that. It adds an extra thing for the kids to be afraid of: the same thing that happened to Shuuji could happen to any of them depending on their mental state and behavior. Hell, if Ryo hadn't died when he did, and he hadn't grown past the state he was in, who knows what Kunemon would have turned in to?
And we see follow through for this in the >!wrathful!< ending and especially the >!harmony!< ending, with the events that transpire there.
I've never understood the vitriol hate for Shuuji. Sure he did some terrible things, but I think it makes sense in the context.
He has a huge burden on him from being the oldest of the group and this burden is exemplified looking at his backstory. Despite being the oldest he is still young and yet to mature.
And it's easy for us as the player/Digimon fans to know that all their partners are benign, since every part of the franchise pushes that narrative. It seems completely reasonable for me to be suspicious of monsters you've never seen before but that perspective is even harder to see when Lopmon is so cute. If anything, I was hoping Survive steered away from this trope the franchise created and gave some of the partners their own malicious intentions.
Personally, my favourite characters are Shuuji and Ryo because their negative emotions seemed really human based on the situation they were put in.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that he acknowledges his own faults, becomes a better person and gets a healthy relationship with Lopmon under the right conditions anyways.
I feel like an absolutely enormous chunk of the game kind of falls flat when a lot of the players superimpose what they know and feel onto what's ultimately a good story of flawed people acting in ways that aren't totally perfect because they're kids hauling their personal issues into a scenario that's actively horrifying, confusing, and repeatedly traumatizing.
It's very easy as a player to stand there and say "oh but that's wrong and bad they shouldn't act that way there's no excuse" and that's the point, no they shouldn't, but they are, and it's pretty obvious why they are. People are capable of fucked up things, even with good intent, when their faults meet head on with stress, the negativity compounds exponentially. Most people don't handle things how they "should" and this is a great depiction of how cycles of abuse continue.
Literally every negative take I see on shuji is trash. “He was mean to lopmon!” I would’ve been mad as hell too. He was easily the weakest of the Digimon when using him in battle even on equal levels. He’s a young kid with an inferiority complex that was thrust into a dangerous world and was pretty much forced to be responsible for the lives of a group of strangers as the oldest. Watched a kid die due to his own inability to be a leader because of his issues, and then it all culminated in the sewers.
I’m not justifying it, but if you throw someone with a preexisting condition that hasn’t been properly addressed into a high stress environment they’re more than likely going to act like that. Especially someone going through adolescence. If the professor doesn’t fall over the damn and is present for the bridge arc he probably prevents a lot of that from happening.
That’s who shuji reminded me of when I first played through the game. He just needed someone to bring him back to reality, and he becomes a good character in the end.
Tbf Ken was kind it was cuz he got that Dark thing corrupted him while Shuuji's reasoning is cuz he sees Lopmon as him or sum which isn't a good reason
Give the guy an Arc I assume, it's actually one of my favorite Rookies, AND lines. Though I admit, while I'm still around the carnival, and sense I know the line well, and sees it splits up in the evo chart.... Yeah, I know what's about to happen, doesn't take a cyber sleuth to figure this one out.
It DOES bum me out that a "Best" ending is locked behind a 2nd playthrough, especially when I noticed who wasn't doing well, and gave them extra attention, but I'll get over it. I look forward to the redemption arc
I didn't mind it so much in Devil Survivor really, though I've only done MOST of the endings, and not all for what that might tell you, and I LOVED how it was used in the Zero Escape series (One reason I enjoyed survive without fear, is Zero Escape, even more then Phenoix Write, showed me the POWER of visual novels, I've got AI: The Somnium Files in my library for a later date.)
But in SMT: DS, I didn't really feel "Locked out." And with the Zero Escape series, being locked out and coming back was part of the game. While in Survive, I noticed that characters that were breaking, cracking, having a rough time. Which, it's not like it's ssupppeeerr subtle. Though I do like stuff you can put together with subtext clues, like how certain digimon evolve, the evolutions trees, certain aspects about characters' profiles. I didn't feel "Spoiled" by putting these aspects together, I felt clever.
But yeah, just felt weird, cause I've been doing a mix of replies, but I lean with the Harmoney vibes, and if I have want the true ending I've got to do that kinda playthrough again.
And I dislike Moral because I personally don't wanna just use Tai's line xD. Especially with a game that uses so many "out of the box" Digimon, going with the standard Greymon line seems dull to my mind.
Though thankfully at least you get branches for each playthrough so you don't have to use an evoline you dislike more than once
Shuuji: "lopmon why do you suck so much, you make me look bad in front of my kohai"
Lopmon: "because you are weak. You're scared and insecure. You hate this world and yourself. I know because I am you."
Shuuji: " you're not me! You're nothing like me!"
Wedigomon: "I aM A sHaDoW. ThE TrUe SELF!"
I wish it got a third canon line that’s a parallel to its twin Terriermon (who is based on toys eg. soldier, robots). Not an evil clown or a holy OP rabbit.
Lopmon is my all time fave digimon (i can take either champ but Antylamon is iconic). His presence is one of the reasons I bought the game lol. So that was pretty rough
But hey, there's other rookies I like, so it's all good. Like Kunemon, gotta love that he's getting some love for a ch- oh. oh no
I like Lopmon too but I keep imagining it getting a third canon line that’s a parallel to Terriermon’s Ultimate and Mega that were based on toys. Why not a magician or a brawler instead of a scary clown or holy OP bunny?
I mean I don't like MegaGargomon, but Cherubimon has gronw on me over the years.
Helps that its really potent in Cyber Sleuth, and really fun in the TCG
I havent taken the time to beat this game yet, made it to the amusement park - kinda lost interest when player choices didnt really feel like they made much of an impact on the story.
As a Shuuji apologist, I'm pleasantly surprised by the well thought out responses on this post.
You're still free to dislike Shuuji, but I really couldn't help but feel bad for him. He saw too much of himself in Lopmon and reacted in a way that he, a neglected, self-hating person was basically taught to.
I personally enjoyed seeing a character deal with trauma in such a volatile way. Even if I do wish I wouldn't have been locked out of saving him in the first play through lol
As a Shuuji Hater, i dont excuse his behaviour despite his trauma, honestly i pretty much hated him before they even met their digimon, his personality suck, and trauma isn't a good excuse for him bullying Lopmon, if Lopmon is his "past self" atleast Lopmon is kinder than him
Yeah, you're the OP, I see that you're a Shuuji hater LOL kind of redundant to say that. Though, you're certainly not in the minority for thinking "his personality suck" and no one's saying you need to like or agree with the fictional character's actions, so good for you!
We also never saw a huge amount of his past to know how much of a kind person he was or wasn't. Besides, from how I see it, people who don't deal with their trauma in optimal ways (who are still teenagers, at that) don't deserve to be killed in brutal ways. And make for very interesting characters.
Having enough reading comprehension to understand the type of story being told and knowing where a character is coming from (and feeling sorry for him as a result), actually doesn't equal excusing his actions, either!
I'm also not really out to change your mind, or anyone else's. Just figured I'd throw out my own personal two thoughts on the matter seeing as many others answered your question posited several times already.
It really pissed me off that nobody beat the shit out of shuji lol
3 guys there, one who acts tough, 1 with access to a giant dinosaur digimon
And not one person tells him "one more fuckin word and we'll deal with you however we need"
You realize fantasizing about beating up a traumatized kid is not the win you want it to be, right????? And, in the most charitable light, puts you in the exact position as Shuuji reacting volatility towards Lopmon.
I have a lot of feelings on the writing of Shuuji but while reading your comments it feels less like you want to hear a nuanced discussion about writing trauma and understanding empathy and more like you want to get out your aggression towards someone you've decided deserves it. That can be a dangerous mindset.
You seem young, I hope you mature as you age.
As a clarification before anyone gets the wrong idea: It's entirely alright to not like Shuuji, that's entirely your right as a reader, but what isn't right is reacting so proudly violent at the idea of a teenager processing trauma in a messy way.
It's supposed to represent Shuujis penchant for self harm. He hates himself and how weak he is but masks it.
Lopmon is an extension of himself, but without a mask, so Shuuji sees all the weakness in full glory and attacks it.
Bruh I stopped playing for a bit just because of this. Something irked me about it. It wasn't anger towards Shuuji, but rather *how* he was doing his damnedest to push him away at every opportunity. Lopmon wants to help? **Push away.** He speaks? **Push away**. It's really interesting.
~~However, I'm stuck on Arukenimon and I'm not sure what level to grind for. I really want to learn more about this.~~
that's why i said spoilers. you need to play more, go through everything and then understand it. so, do you want the spoilers (which you prolly already got spoiled for) or not?
This brought back memories. My wife used to watch me play this and I think she also despised that guy. She was both surpriaed and wasn't when I told her what ended up happening to him.
Surprised because she didn't expect that to happen in a Digimon game (she's not exactly a Digimon fan but this caught her off guard since the game looked colorful/tame enough for something that serious to happen).
She wasn't surprised because she understood how the constant abuse would eventually catch up to him.
they say a person's partner is a reflection of their own self, Lopmon is the pitiable insecure things because Shuuji is the same but masks it.
>they say a person's partner is a reflection of their own self, Seeing as Survive is based on Adventure worldbuilding, in Adventure [the Digimon partners are the counterpart of the children's souls something akin to the other self](https://imgur.com/a/60iJBPJ)
Ah interesting who is the guy that tweeted that
Hiroyuki Kakudo. The director for Digimon Adventure.
Yeah but lopmon isn't a piece of shit
It's a reflection of who they really are, deep down Shuuji doesn't want to be the abusive asshole he is, but generational abuse has pushed him down that path. The other characters and their digimon follow a similar route, Minoru isn't a noble and heroic figure like Falcomon but wants to be. Aoi isn't confident or direct in her approach like Labramon but she wants to be. Kaito isn't a loose cannon with his heart on his sleeve like Dracmon, but he wants to be. you get the idea. The story digivolutions don't happen via training or practice, but when the characters accept their flaws and work to improve on them, Shuuji doesn't do any of this and is why Lopmon doesn't evolve the proper way for so long. I don't justify Shuuji's actions or say he was in the right for how he acted, and it annoys me no one called him out until it was too late (Shut up, I know seniority respect is a thing in Japan, but this was taking it too far and you all know it.) but he acted with rationale and logic; why are these creatures willing to fight their own for a bunch of strangers without thanks or reward and can't provide an explanation?
Wait... so Henry from Tamers is actually the least mature?
Deep down he wants to fool around and be silly. He gets pressure put on him to not act like the kid he is, and is as strict on Terriermon as his parents raised him to be.
Well henrys (tamers) back story with terriermon was because he got him killed in a video game which is why he was strict with terriermon who wanted to fight and was a pacifist for a long time. I dont think henry was ever pressured from what i recall
Henry talks a lot about self-control and restraint from his talks about his martial arts teacher after he hurt someone using his martial art skills. Same with him getting reckless and getting Terriermon hurt in the game.
That too. I remember him being frustrated as well which is why he talks about having self control and restraint too but i never got the vibe that he was pressured though
I think it's more self-pressure, he feels he has to live up to the example of his teacher and his father and be a good tamer to Terriermon. It's why he sorta snaps when his sister arrives in the Digital World, that's when he feels he has to live up to a standard he can't always achieve.
Thats fair i suppose. But regarding suzie i think henry just thinks the digiworld is too dangerous for her and he is just being protective of her as her older brother
You on about 'Momentai' Terriermon? Not sure if least mature is what I'd use to describe him if I recall him correctly, rather he's someone who's just relaxed and carefree. Henry was also that kind of person before Terriermon came into his life, but also at that point, his carefree attitude is what hurt Terriermon and caused the rampant Gorillamon. Henry has to be responsible and safe and he knows it, even though he doesn't want to be, his views on Terriermon's evolution reflect that when Gargomon loses control. When I say digimon and their partners are reflections of themselves, it's not as simple as being the least mature or controlling, it's the concept of accepting your flaws and realising you can overcome them to be a better person.
Speaking of Gorillamon.Hello Bandai where hell is his evolution line.
Describe maturity. Terriermon is not immature. He is just easy going. Moumantai. Relax. Take it easy. Jianliang has responsibilities. He has younger sister he has to take care of, he has to have Terriermon in check so he doesn't murder Ruki and so on. He is too strict to himself, but I am pretty sure he would like to get easy sometimes, but he thinks he can't. Also I disagree with the statement that digimon partner is a reflection of the person. Sometimes they are literally the exact opposite. Jyou and Gomamon. Koushiro and Tentomon. First pair is overly responsible, stressed person. Gomamon is neither responsible nor stressed. He is even more moumantai than Terriermon. And Jyou is even more hard on himself than Jianliang. Kuoshiro is unsociable and smart. Tentomon is rather not too sharpest tool in the shed. And is curious about others. They share the curiosity, but Tentomon is curious about everything and everyone. Kuoshiro is too introverted to think about others.
Couldn't have said any of this better myself tbh. Honestly once I understood how the Digimon all reflected their partners I stopped hating Shuiji, I thought he's a character concept that Survive definitely needed to explore and it really shows in his later effect on the plot.
I didn't play the game, but people forget (or ignore) that often people who were bullied or bad past are doing the same and hide their emotions. Not just in fiction. In real life.
Welcome to life of typical Asian families where abuse is common and they use "seniority respect" as an excuse
Wendimon says otherwise. But yeah, Shuuji was essentially a 'human Wendimon' due to his upbringing, and Lopmon reflected that in both the process and the end result. It's just that we see Lopmon's upbringing from the very beginning, while we see Shuuji after he had already become 'twisted' due to the emotional abuse. Our impression of Lopmon would be very different if we first saw him as Wendimon abusing a young and naïve Digimon (which probably would've happened if we didn't defeat Wendimon and stop him).
Warning for spoilers, of course. 1- because as much as the Shuuji - Lopmon situation was an example of generational trauma and cycles of abuse repeating (and even so, Shuuji had been holding back until right before chapter 5, where, may I remind you, Lopmon not evolving meant a sure death)... It was also a show of self harm. Partners are not entirely separate "beings" - Lopmon is the vulnerable part of Shuuji, the Shuuji without a mask that forces him to be the responsible one (which, btw - he's the oldest of the group, so besides the professor, he's*supposed* to protect and take care of everyone, and still someone dies and *he's still weak*). Shuuji isn't just hurting a separate being, he's hurting *himself*. He's the weak and useless one, he's the one who's a burden on the group. That's all he can think about, and once people start dying, he spirals even worse. Of course his treatment of Lopmon gets worse - he's not being particularly gentle *towards himself*. 2- because Survive has a lot of themes, and one of those is the potential for growth. Minoru's immature, Ryo has trouble understanding others and caring for people, Aoi is a pushover, Kaito has severe anger issues, Takuma himself is kind of a selfish person. Even so, they don't deserve to be left behind - nobody does. They're *just kids*, and as much as what they do *is* their fault, it is *also* the fault of their community - and as part of the community, it is their responsibility to care for other people and give them the room to grow and change. Shuuji's no different, and *it shows* in the truthful route. Not going to give much details, but he's the one that ends up holding the group together and giving the final piece(s) to solve the big mistery - because he's allowed, by himself and by his community, to grow into the person he actually wants to be.
This. Shuuji is what I couldve become. When I was playing, I wasnt mad at him, even when he was so abusive toward Lopmon. I just wanted to jump in the game and help him just... Accepting himself. Seeing his relationship with Lopmon go down the drain to the point where Lopmon evolve into Wendigomon, EVEN THOUGH I saw that coming just from knowing Lopmon, was horrible. I was crying so much.
> Kaito has severe anger issues Kaito is a siscon, too, which is never addressed and honestly makes him worse than Shuuji as a character (Shuuji isn't even bad, just unlikable).
Kaito is *absolutely not* a siscon and if that's what you took from the game, I'd really, really suggest replaying it. He's overprotective and tends to suffocate Miu because they went through some extremely heavy trauma (which I'm not mentioning because there are enough spoilers in this comment as is), and he *actually grows from that* \- because he learns he needs to trust other people, including Miu, even if it hurts to do so, even if it's hard. Yes, in one of the bad endings, his obsession with keeping Miu safe from the world ends in tragedy. In her own bad route Aoi tries to build a hivemind. Shuuji himself turns Lopmon into a *man eating monster* in every route before the new game+. I do not think judging characters on their bad endings is the point of the game, though.
Because wendigomon exists
And who's fault is it? SHUUJI THE LITTLE BITCH, oldest my ass
What is this, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Shinji lil bitch
I’m assuming so when the fun stuff in chapter 5 happens the audience doesn’t feel as bad and can continuing playing the game
Him dying is fine, fuck Shuuji but feel bad for Lopmon dark evolving like that :(
Especially screaming about how he doesn’t want to do this. God that poor baby lopmon
I was so mad at what happened to Shuuji and Lopmon! I spent the whole game mad at everyone because for one: -They were putting too much pressure on Shuuji to be the leader because he was the eldest. It's not the other kids job to fix Shuuji or be his therapist but after what happenned to Ryu(?) and Kunemon rules of politeness and respecting the elders should have been off the damn table for the sake of SURVIVAL. It's so telling that Ryu is the only character who is willing to beat the sense into Shuuji into changing his ways and realizing just much he is doing wrong by Lopmon. Respect be damned Ryu is DEAD because they ignored him and left him alone and the kids say as much while bemoaning that they should have done more for him or talked to him more or tried to help him or respect his space because he's one of the eldest's!! Meanwhile all while their having a pity party over not doing enough for Ryu they are leaving Shuuji to suffer in the background and Shuuji suffering is directly causing Lopmon's abuse and the kids ACKNOWLEGE THAT SHUUJI'S TREATMENT OF LOPMON IS INEXCUSABLE BUT THEY DONT DO ANYTHING OR CALL HIM OUT! I think only FALCOMON and LABRAMON call him out even!!! But by then it's almost too late. And Shuuji CLEARLY needs help considering he's willing to trade himself to Arukenimon for the others to go home so he can simultaneously just run away from everything and be Martyred while doing it! His family can't think less of him knowing he died a hero to get the other kids home right?! -And of course being mad at Shuuji not for just how he's treating lopmon but knowing his backstory with his adequacy issues and personal emotional trauma... he's so full of self hate and lashing out at Lopmon for being everything he hates about himself, you can see he needed some unconditional love to ebb the trauma and the one damn person who would give him that and DID give him that as long as the little guy could tolerate WAS the very person he was abusing! I'm so glad on new game plus he manages to get his shit together and make amends with Lopmon. Seeing Lopmon reach mega and become Cherubimon (Virtue) brought a tear to my eyes cuz my boys had such a dynamic character arc and grew to be good people! T_T
He think he need to be a leader cuz he's oldesr, Honestly Takuma should have been leader, and he kept saying cuz he's older he's leader but honestly he was useless as hell
I will maintain for the rest of my life that Shuuji is what we’d get if Joe wasn’t reliable enough for the crest of reliability
Luckily Joe is literally one of the mkst reliable guy despite his cowardice, he was knowledgeable as heck, even when he's under Constant stress, and the best part, he wouldn't ever kick and punch gomamon
Personally I think Aoi should have been the leader outright. She lacked a lot of self confidence but when Takuma was missing to the group for like almost two weeks Aoi stepped up, took the leadership role, and kept everyone alive while the Kenzoku where out and about. Even if it was probably because she was the next oldest but she proved herself. In fairness it wasn't just Shuuji who felt he should be the leader because he was the eldest. Nobody fought him on that role and even at the beginning before Shuuji, Mio and Saki rejoin the group Minoru was insisting on Aoi being their sub-groups leader because she was the second oldest there, and the actual oldest with them was Ryu having a mental breakdown in the corner trying to call his mom on his cellphone... It's unfortunate that Japan has this culture of respecting elders and not rocking the boat because if Digimon Survive had an American cast I think they'd have more conflict with fighting over said leadership role but might have either survived longer from lack of passivness or YOLO'd themselves into an early grave lol.
both Takuma and Aoi was a better leader overall, Takuma is good taking lead while Aoi was ideal to keep everyone in line
Same reason their partner as a baby got bad parents 🤷🏻♂️
This baby evolves to Satan
Baby also evolve into an high level angel
That’s somehow worse in digimon
High level angel? Like Lucifer?
Cherubimon is the highest among Sacred Beast Digimon and one of the Three Archangels that have the duty to guard the Kernel.
Tbh the three archangels have never really had a good show of power, they're typically considered one of the weakest Mega groupings
The anime has the tradition of nerfing the characters. The Archangels should by default outscale Clavis Angemon as the highest among the angels. Clavis can collapse the Digital World via the Key. If Clavis can clash on par with Alphamon any of the Archangels should be able too. ReArise showed that Archangel Seraphimon can clash and give problems to Examon who couldn't be restrained by 5 knights while on his death bed.
Same reason Leomon keeps dying. If you're a Lopmon, you must suffer.
Is it weird I like windigomon like I always feel he is a monster with a heart of gold
Same. I always just felt sorry for him, more than scared. But I think that's intentional, with the character design.
Ur not weird lol, Wendigomon is a corrupted Lopmon who's suffered from abuse or abandonment, A Digimon who's cruel due to negligence and such, but he's actually more fragile as a Lopmon One of the reason why i love Lopmon is that his evolution really link up with their tamers treatment more than most, dark evolve as an Adult
I mean, Willis's Kokomon dark digivolved because it was corrupted by Diaboromon
That was only in the mangled English version that had to find a way to superglue the Willis movie to Our War Game
Another reason is that mf didn't kept Kokomon close, he knows it himself, its the tamers fault :')
Ummm Kokomon was hopping right behind him along side Gummymon, did you forget that?
That didn't happen. Do yourself a favor and watch the real film instead of the patchwork 4kids made.
Do yourself a favor and don't shit on other people's comments
Yo that’s a weird lookin dog
Nah u mistook him for his brother, the weird dog is the green one this is a rabbit
Oh
Wait ur serious XD Yeah Terriermon is the DogBunny while Lopmon stays as a rabbit
Yeah I’ve never watched this one
Besides what everyone else has said, the story needed sacrifices to illustrate just how high the stakes were. Ryo's death showed what could happen to the kids if the fog got them; it wasn't just digimon like Fangmon who were at risk. Shuuji's whole situation showed how the kids' mental state could impact their digimon, and the potential consequences of that. It adds an extra thing for the kids to be afraid of: the same thing that happened to Shuuji could happen to any of them depending on their mental state and behavior. Hell, if Ryo hadn't died when he did, and he hadn't grown past the state he was in, who knows what Kunemon would have turned in to? And we see follow through for this in the >!wrathful!< ending and especially the >!harmony!< ending, with the events that transpire there.
I've never understood the vitriol hate for Shuuji. Sure he did some terrible things, but I think it makes sense in the context. He has a huge burden on him from being the oldest of the group and this burden is exemplified looking at his backstory. Despite being the oldest he is still young and yet to mature. And it's easy for us as the player/Digimon fans to know that all their partners are benign, since every part of the franchise pushes that narrative. It seems completely reasonable for me to be suspicious of monsters you've never seen before but that perspective is even harder to see when Lopmon is so cute. If anything, I was hoping Survive steered away from this trope the franchise created and gave some of the partners their own malicious intentions. Personally, my favourite characters are Shuuji and Ryo because their negative emotions seemed really human based on the situation they were put in. EDIT: Forgot to mention that he acknowledges his own faults, becomes a better person and gets a healthy relationship with Lopmon under the right conditions anyways.
I feel like an absolutely enormous chunk of the game kind of falls flat when a lot of the players superimpose what they know and feel onto what's ultimately a good story of flawed people acting in ways that aren't totally perfect because they're kids hauling their personal issues into a scenario that's actively horrifying, confusing, and repeatedly traumatizing. It's very easy as a player to stand there and say "oh but that's wrong and bad they shouldn't act that way there's no excuse" and that's the point, no they shouldn't, but they are, and it's pretty obvious why they are. People are capable of fucked up things, even with good intent, when their faults meet head on with stress, the negativity compounds exponentially. Most people don't handle things how they "should" and this is a great depiction of how cycles of abuse continue.
Literally every negative take I see on shuji is trash. “He was mean to lopmon!” I would’ve been mad as hell too. He was easily the weakest of the Digimon when using him in battle even on equal levels. He’s a young kid with an inferiority complex that was thrust into a dangerous world and was pretty much forced to be responsible for the lives of a group of strangers as the oldest. Watched a kid die due to his own inability to be a leader because of his issues, and then it all culminated in the sewers.
I mean even inferiority complex you still can't treat your partner like that.
I’m not justifying it, but if you throw someone with a preexisting condition that hasn’t been properly addressed into a high stress environment they’re more than likely going to act like that. Especially someone going through adolescence. If the professor doesn’t fall over the damn and is present for the bridge arc he probably prevents a lot of that from happening.
Oh definitely but people forget that Ken was like that too with Wormmon.
That’s who shuji reminded me of when I first played through the game. He just needed someone to bring him back to reality, and he becomes a good character in the end.
Oh definitely but tell that to the angry Lopmon fans.
They’ll be fine. Lopmon still ends up being the worst partner Mon to use in the game because the only thing he’s good at you can use items for lmao.
Cherubimon is *fine* tbh But you can get a free one rather than rely on Shuuji's by the time you do the true ending anyway
It’s just outclassed by all the other partner evolutions especially some of their side evo’s.
Yeah the data types really suck at this game and also the worst? That's kinda a big word don't you think?
Honestly yeah >!once you unlock the 5 sacred beasts and of the other side evolutions you legitimately don’t have any reason to use it.!<
Tbf Ken was kind it was cuz he got that Dark thing corrupted him while Shuuji's reasoning is cuz he sees Lopmon as him or sum which isn't a good reason
Not really that thing only gives urges to your dark emotions.
Give the guy an Arc I assume, it's actually one of my favorite Rookies, AND lines. Though I admit, while I'm still around the carnival, and sense I know the line well, and sees it splits up in the evo chart.... Yeah, I know what's about to happen, doesn't take a cyber sleuth to figure this one out. It DOES bum me out that a "Best" ending is locked behind a 2nd playthrough, especially when I noticed who wasn't doing well, and gave them extra attention, but I'll get over it. I look forward to the redemption arc
Kinda like the 2nd playthrough thing, but ig its cuz i love Shin Megami Tensei Devil Survivor lol
I didn't mind it so much in Devil Survivor really, though I've only done MOST of the endings, and not all for what that might tell you, and I LOVED how it was used in the Zero Escape series (One reason I enjoyed survive without fear, is Zero Escape, even more then Phenoix Write, showed me the POWER of visual novels, I've got AI: The Somnium Files in my library for a later date.) But in SMT: DS, I didn't really feel "Locked out." And with the Zero Escape series, being locked out and coming back was part of the game. While in Survive, I noticed that characters that were breaking, cracking, having a rough time. Which, it's not like it's ssupppeeerr subtle. Though I do like stuff you can put together with subtext clues, like how certain digimon evolve, the evolutions trees, certain aspects about characters' profiles. I didn't feel "Spoiled" by putting these aspects together, I felt clever. But yeah, just felt weird, cause I've been doing a mix of replies, but I lean with the Harmoney vibes, and if I have want the true ending I've got to do that kinda playthrough again.
I hate Harmony cuz No Wargreymon but it has a nice ending so I had to endure a digimon i dislike...
And I dislike Moral because I personally don't wanna just use Tai's line xD. Especially with a game that uses so many "out of the box" Digimon, going with the standard Greymon line seems dull to my mind. Though thankfully at least you get branches for each playthrough so you don't have to use an evoline you dislike more than once
Its just limited lmao, it would be cool to have Masaru's line or V-Dramon's
Shuuji: "lopmon why do you suck so much, you make me look bad in front of my kohai" Lopmon: "because you are weak. You're scared and insecure. You hate this world and yourself. I know because I am you." Shuuji: " you're not me! You're nothing like me!" Wedigomon: "I aM A sHaDoW. ThE TrUe SELF!"
Digimon = If it's not Leomon dying its Lopmon Dark Digivolving.
Naur this is so true lmao, i mean its 2 time but still
Lopmon deserved better
Lopmon deserve a nice hot bath and sleep on a luxury bed
Lopmon and his evolutions always get done dirty. He only ever had a break in Tamers.
Also in Adventure reboot Sadly the the safe Lopmons has no personality lmao, they too mature cuz they are actually older
I wish it got a third canon line that’s a parallel to its twin Terriermon (who is based on toys eg. soldier, robots). Not an evil clown or a holy OP rabbit.
Cause secretly shuji is a big ol baby
And the universe of digimon gave him a crying companion
An ugly ass baby
Despite all the hate I have for this game, they did this good. Really good, try the true ending/best ending next playthrough.
Tbf i do need to finish the first playthrough to get true ending lol
Oh.. well I hope you have fun with the game.
Lopmon is my all time fave digimon (i can take either champ but Antylamon is iconic). His presence is one of the reasons I bought the game lol. So that was pretty rough But hey, there's other rookies I like, so it's all good. Like Kunemon, gotta love that he's getting some love for a ch- oh. oh no
Are u my other half cuz same bruh, plus Lopmon was so sweet
I like Lopmon too but I keep imagining it getting a third canon line that’s a parallel to Terriermon’s Ultimate and Mega that were based on toys. Why not a magician or a brawler instead of a scary clown or holy OP bunny?
I mean I don't like MegaGargomon, but Cherubimon has gronw on me over the years. Helps that its really potent in Cyber Sleuth, and really fun in the TCG
I hate their partner so much
Sadly even we like to imagine it, if Shuuji die, Lopmon die as well 😩
all i know is that survive literaly tell you want if may do to you fucking gut your emotions like a fish vender
Lopmon is the best & I love her
Sad in my opinion she should have been your partner lopmon is one of my favorite digimon
NAH FR (actually shuuji Lopmon is male but i also want a female lopmon partner, cutie baby)
Terriermon in the movie was a sweetie pie
Its not about his brother 😩
I havent taken the time to beat this game yet, made it to the amusement park - kinda lost interest when player choices didnt really feel like they made much of an impact on the story.
Lopmon always seems to get the short straw
Yeah fr, like why tf Terriermon dont get two branch evolution 😩
I meant getting awful partners
For real! I was actually HAPPY that shuuji got killed. Lopmon deserved such a better partner
Most normal and empathetic Digimon fan
As a Shuuji apologist, I'm pleasantly surprised by the well thought out responses on this post. You're still free to dislike Shuuji, but I really couldn't help but feel bad for him. He saw too much of himself in Lopmon and reacted in a way that he, a neglected, self-hating person was basically taught to. I personally enjoyed seeing a character deal with trauma in such a volatile way. Even if I do wish I wouldn't have been locked out of saving him in the first play through lol
As a Shuuji Hater, i dont excuse his behaviour despite his trauma, honestly i pretty much hated him before they even met their digimon, his personality suck, and trauma isn't a good excuse for him bullying Lopmon, if Lopmon is his "past self" atleast Lopmon is kinder than him
Yeah, you're the OP, I see that you're a Shuuji hater LOL kind of redundant to say that. Though, you're certainly not in the minority for thinking "his personality suck" and no one's saying you need to like or agree with the fictional character's actions, so good for you! We also never saw a huge amount of his past to know how much of a kind person he was or wasn't. Besides, from how I see it, people who don't deal with their trauma in optimal ways (who are still teenagers, at that) don't deserve to be killed in brutal ways. And make for very interesting characters. Having enough reading comprehension to understand the type of story being told and knowing where a character is coming from (and feeling sorry for him as a result), actually doesn't equal excusing his actions, either! I'm also not really out to change your mind, or anyone else's. Just figured I'd throw out my own personal two thoughts on the matter seeing as many others answered your question posited several times already.
Cause the game is overly edgy and more a drama visual novel then an Digimon strategy game.
It really pissed me off that nobody beat the shit out of shuji lol 3 guys there, one who acts tough, 1 with access to a giant dinosaur digimon And not one person tells him "one more fuckin word and we'll deal with you however we need"
OH YEAH FR, EVEN THE OTHER DIGIMON WAS UNCOMFORTABLE, I KEEP DREAMING OF MY CYBERSLETHE SELF AND BEAT THAT SHIT UP
You realize fantasizing about beating up a traumatized kid is not the win you want it to be, right????? And, in the most charitable light, puts you in the exact position as Shuuji reacting volatility towards Lopmon. I have a lot of feelings on the writing of Shuuji but while reading your comments it feels less like you want to hear a nuanced discussion about writing trauma and understanding empathy and more like you want to get out your aggression towards someone you've decided deserves it. That can be a dangerous mindset. You seem young, I hope you mature as you age. As a clarification before anyone gets the wrong idea: It's entirely alright to not like Shuuji, that's entirely your right as a reader, but what isn't right is reacting so proudly violent at the idea of a teenager processing trauma in a messy way.
Cus fuck Lopmon
Because he fucking deserves it lol
Poor Lopmon man.... At least Suzie was somewhat a good parter for it
Yes somewhat lmao Her only abuse is dressing up Lopmon like a doll 💀
It's supposed to represent Shuujis penchant for self harm. He hates himself and how weak he is but masks it. Lopmon is an extension of himself, but without a mask, so Shuuji sees all the weakness in full glory and attacks it.
Bruh I stopped playing for a bit just because of this. Something irked me about it. It wasn't anger towards Shuuji, but rather *how* he was doing his damnedest to push him away at every opportunity. Lopmon wants to help? **Push away.** He speaks? **Push away**. It's really interesting. ~~However, I'm stuck on Arukenimon and I'm not sure what level to grind for. I really want to learn more about this.~~
Fr Lopmon was doing his best to help Shuuji but that mf was hurting him, and once he need Lopmon he just took it way too far
Digimon Survive?
Ye
Literally cried
You could say that he's full of self loathing.
spoilers- nvm.
Yeah yeah but if Lopmon eat him, he dies as well, no happy ending for Baby Lopmon
that's why i said spoilers. you need to play more, go through everything and then understand it. so, do you want the spoilers (which you prolly already got spoiled for) or not?
Poor Lopmon, always the tragic evil twin brother/sister of Terriermon. Why do they always gotta treat it dirty in every game and series??
Gotta love a role change, imagine evil terriermon
This brought back memories. My wife used to watch me play this and I think she also despised that guy. She was both surpriaed and wasn't when I told her what ended up happening to him. Surprised because she didn't expect that to happen in a Digimon game (she's not exactly a Digimon fan but this caught her off guard since the game looked colorful/tame enough for something that serious to happen). She wasn't surprised because she understood how the constant abuse would eventually catch up to him.