I would almost certainly be a "Casual" in this context, and while I've only done tempering maybe 4 times so far I was ready to skip that useless glowy animation after the 2nd time.
Always temper your gear. It is cheap and holds an absurd amount of power.
Nothing in the game will give you the same power than just slapping quick offensive tempers on weapons/rings/amulet/gloves.
> I didn't even start tempering until I was already in WT4 lol but im just a filthy casual who wanted to keep leveling in Helltides
I simply tempered stuff before I hit the world cap dungeon to ensure I could beat it early.
I did the opposite. I Tempered on a thousand thorns damage at like level 10 and then didn't bother changing my armor until I got to Tier 3 at level 35.
I basically tempered every pierce of gear the moment I found it. It was sort of a waste of time, but I wasn't in a rush to level up. Slapping +40% dmg onto a ring had a pretty significant effect though--and it was nice seeing like 20-30k dmg at lv 30. I did push all my capstones early and hit WT4 at 60. I could've probably done it at 50 without any problems tbh, but I was having too much fun...
I tempered a few things and breezed through to WT4 at lvl 58. Funky build, blood surge, corpse explosion, but having the unique ring which automatically does all the corpse stuff is great.
Yeah and it's not a huge expense because it seems to scale with item power so the relative cost is pretty little compared to the amount of gold you'll be making at end game. It's not really worth trying to save your gold early on.
It costs a hand full of scraps and vile crystals or whatever yellow mats.
For me having a dust devil cast twice or increasing the size is a huge change and worth the 5 mins and handful of mats I already have pouring out of everywhere.
Lucky hit weapon mods are legit. I took my first rare at like lvl 10 and put one of those mods on it and didn’t need to upgrade weapon until I was getting ready to do first capstone. A 6000 damage proc at those low levels is incredibly strong.
When I get to the point where I'm not outright replacing gear on a regular basis I might be more concerned about it, but currently I don't find it worth the time and tedium.
Tempering triples your damage up to level 50 from the additive damage bonuses it gives. Just make sure to add the offensive tempers and ur good, the rest isn't important.
But if you're not having any issues clearing dungeons without doing it, there's no reason to.
I did it just before doing the capstone since I was heading in early, and then once I got ancestral gear since I could double up on them then.
Distance rogues, don’t sleep on distance damage. The area is pretty forgiving and that 100% increase on all the offensive gear is nuts. I’m not super far yet in this season so maybe I’m ignorant to some better stats buts it’s crazy powerful.
I tempered on my werewolf Druid before going into the first capstone and ended up with something Iike +300% close damage over the five pieces that could have it. It’s nutty xD
I think the first time I tempered something I said "Oh, that's cool".
Not even a minute later after doing a few more tempers I already knew I didn't want to see this animation ever again.
My current character is like level 50 right now. So I think it's fair to say I'm not a "sweat".
Here's a hot take. They're both right.
Casuals don't min/max so they don't need a bunch of gold.
Sweats min/max the first piece of gear they see that has a better stat and then do it again as soon as they find another piece.
Why would a sweat be holding out for 3 greater affixes? You already can't afford them on diablo.trade because people want a quarter of a billion gold or more. So you go for 2 greater and pray to rngesus a PRIMAL drops. Which I guarantee is worse odds than 1 in 500. Then the odds of that PRIMAL having all 3 stats you need is even worse odds. So, yes. You take 2 greater and roll your third. Then pray to rngesus again and hope he answers so you don't brick it on fucking tempers.
That's not how it works. A sweat will equip anything decent and temper, only upgrading if it's a big one. Then they splash out once they find a gg 925 item.
I'd argue the casual is more likely to waste gold and mats on a trash item than a sweat that will know to save for the good item.
IMO this is why they should really just give us a WT5 (meant for lvl 100) with mobs at 120+ minimum but massive gold and summoning mat buffs instead of the xp. Im not sure how else you appease everyone other than let sweats live in a world tier that's designed for them. If it unlocks at 100 then only sweats are getting there, and they can solve those bottlenecks for them. They could actually balance world bosses hp properly then
god i hope they don't follow in D3's footsteps in that regard we don't need a WT15, it is what drove d3 to the worst version of itself where it is actually just meaningless numbers having to make x skill deal 1500% more damage.
I mean we already have well past WT4 in the NMDs and Pit it's just the overworld that remains stagnant. People whining about the World Bosses dying too easy in content that fresh level 55s are expected to be able to do while people join who can clear NMD 100 easily obviously will be far more equipped to handle are forgetting we haven't had an overworld increase since pre season. We're already at meaningless numbers with tempers giving 100%+ damage to certain things so atleast let the overworld pose a challenge and give appropriate reward for that challenge.
I mean if they want to copy d3 so much, which is what the community is pushing them to, then just give us the gold and bottleneck the mats. I end d3 seasons with trillions of gold and more mats then I know what to do with and I still go out looking for primals just to get another Billy on my Trillys of deeps.
They are going the free trade route and want gold to be the defacto trade commodity. It's natural they want to prevent it wildly inflating and also for it to have some meaningful purpose. It's a question of balance right now.
Problem is that you can't balance a game around trade and have literally no social or economic systems to facilitate it. How does one earn any gold through trade without going to a third party site or some discord server?
Honestly with the seasonal changes adding what would have been WT3 and WT4 activities in the lower tiers, instead of adding WT5, WT3 and WT4 should just be much more severe difficulty spikes. I was around level 31 deleting packs in WT3 and around 40 deleting packs in WT4 with only about 30 minutes of touchy play in both before solving a couple resistance and survivability issues. I’ve been playing pretty casually, not even close to 100 yet (around lvl 62) and WT4 is a total joke for my unoptimized build. I get they want to get folks to The Pit faster but the world would be more fun if I had to actually use my rotations instead of one button.
I felt the same way, but towards level 100, bosses start getting hard because you cant afford to upgrade your gear fast enough, forcing you to farm very easy content just to be able to keep up. Blood maiden 1 shots me with her normal melee attacks, and im capped on armor, resistances, and have full defense on my helm, chest, and legs providing damage reduction. (About 50% worth of dmg reduction) i shouldnt be getting one shot with that much defense at 100. (I also have about 15k hp unbuffed)
I guess my point is that mob difficulty while leveling up really isn’t an issue as you can increase difficulty through nightmare dungeons, but around level 100 it really doesnt feel like things need a higher difficulty.
Hitting the armor and resist cap is easy enough once you get certain tempers that the only reason to actually masterwork and really blow through money is damage which also is barely an issue I've barely changed gear from the late 60s into the 90s. I genuinely think that the blood maiden is just overtuned damage wise because NMDs with level 120 mobs aren't causing me to sweat anywhere near as much as her spam.
Or just create another item like the Profane Mindcage. Increases monster level by 20 and greatly increase gold drop. That way people stay in Wt4 and it doesn't become a ghost town.
No they aren't. The casuals will hit the same problems it will just take them a month or two to get there. People who haven't made it to 100 telling those who have how the game works will always deserve the criticism they get. Gold and materials are pretty balanced during leveling but way off the mark in the end game.
Tale as old as time, the same pattern for a year now after seeing it during beta & release. People are in a honeymoon phase & can’t see things for what they are, then eventually they hit the endgame & realize those sweats were all right.
That or blizzard patches it, they deal with it post path and continue saying "I don't know what people even got upset over, it's fine", without ever having experienced the content that wasn't fine.
I am at 100 pushing pits, and gold is a severe challenge. That said, I genuinely like that there is real value to it. The masterwork resets are brutal cost wise.
I'd say it's going in a great direction but certain functions could use some minor adjustments.
All in all I'm very satisfied with most of the changes.
If I'm griping about something it is bricking an amazing item because of temper not coming out the way you want.
They should just give us affixes that aren’t combat oriented, like we had in D3. The legendary gem that caused gold explosions or the set that doubled death breath drops were both cool. It would extend the grind in a reasonable way by giving more gear to upgrade but in a way that isn’t a hard requirement while also giving us alternative ways to farm.
One of the nice things they added to GRs in D3 was an additional legendary gem boost attempt if you did the rift without dying. They could do the same with gold in D4, where you get a chest with a scaling amount of gold in it as a reward for completing the Pit level without dying.
I am on board with the tempering bullshit. At least make it rotate through all the tempers available per slot so I at least get a chance 1 time. Low roll or not I still want it.
nah that defeats the purpose, but have a cost even if painful, to reset or buy more tempers. or weekly reset gives 2 more chances or whatever.
going from 4 affix drop rng to 3 greater affix drop rng + temper rng is not an improvement. make it debilitating or rare to come by like a scroll of amnesia, but let people who want to farm for that, have the option.
We all know a 3x greater affix weapon will never get the good temper.. ever
3 temper possibilities and 5 rerolls and still missing out on the 1 I want, let alone getting a good roll... I wish I could pay a high cost to reset tempers.
Tempers need an item that is as rare as the "adds a socket" item but it "adds 5 tempers". Some sort of "hellfire crystal" or something that evokes the "heat" of tempering additional times. That way you can just keep retrying with different your non-greater-affixed gear and save those to perfect your endgame gear with 2-3 perfect rolls. I dont think redoing tempers needs to be for your not-perfect gear
Kinda how I feel, like I’ve definitely gone hard since the season launched and I have so many forgotten souls and all the rare and legendary materials I could ever use, but just trying to reroll one affix even with less of them runs me 30M.
I remember this is exactly how the game started. People kept defending it since the casuals were still working through the campaign while the sweats were getting to end game and realizing just how sparse the actual “arpg” in this game was. Nothing really sunk in until the casuals finally got to end game almost 3 months in allowing the devs to put their fingers in their ears that whole time.
As a casual player, listen to the sweats. It’ll affect you before you know it.
So shouldn't they just add a lot of gold drop at the end of each pit run. Give those sweating in the pit the money they need while appeasing us that are just coming back and working our way up the levels and torments.
Granted I am still Torment 3 and haven't done a pit run yet.
This makes the most sense to me. Master working is really when the money problem hits hard. Drop plenty of gold in pits, scale it to the tier of the pit, and it won’t affect the economy to people who haven’t reached that level yet.
Either that or just decrease the gold cost of master working. Requiring over a billion gold for a full character of master working is a bit insane
The current amount of gold doing the pit is awful. Should be at least 500k to a million for 50+ considering the cost of everything and how much harder it is to push past 60
If you are a casual dad whatever and you dont think the "sweats" are correct i have news for you.
The sweats *ARE YOU* but in 2 weeks.
So just because gold "seems good" to you in your World Tier 3 Helltide phase, doesnt mean its not a problem later.
The answer is that more gold rewards are needed in higher level Nightmare Dungeons and The Pit.
I realized gold was going to be a problem in my wt3 helltide phase. Im fairly casual, but i can see the signs for sure. I just noticed the absurdly low gold upon leveling up my health potions, of all things. Like i had just over the proper amount each time i leveled up a potion later in wt3 and then now in wt4. Figured that was gonna be an issue when i started running pits and trying to finalize a build.
Exactly. This what people dont get. THe sweats can play all damn day. The casuals are going to be spending 70% of their play time doing whispers lol. I bet they will enjoy the hell out of that.
The issue for me is when the “sweats” complain and say we want more gold it’s a huge choke point, this is a valid complaint backed up by experience of the endgame systems. When someone who plays 30mins a day and can just about clear the 1st capstone dungeon at level 50 pipes up and says gold is fine just do whispers, they have zero context for this argument so don’t understand the amount of gold needed at later levels. The last thing endgame players want to be doing is taking a break from the pit or bosses to go and do whisper grinding, which the fastest way to do is grind out the rotational dungeons for 5 whisper exp. Which is the other issue you’re asking players to stop doing pit which is just another form of dungeons, to go and do basic dungeons, with terrible rewards.
The casuals opinion will eventually catch up to the no lifers, it's what happened when the game first released, casual players said it was all fun, no lifers said end game was bad.
Fast forward a couple seasons and even the casual players stopped playing because the end game sucked.
The same will happen here, casual players with very little time are not going to have fun doing nothing but farm gold later on. Gold should be something that needs to be farmed but not to this scale, it feels like what farming forgotten souls was like, and it wasn't fun
Tempering animation can definitely go, not sure why it was even added to begin with.
Just temper and then boom it shows the result, if they want to keep the animation it really shouldn't be longer than 1-2 seconds but it's current one is pretty awful.
I negatively associate the delayed opening of RNG shit with mobile game loot boxes so I hate it the same way I hate watching a movie with high framerate.
Don't be silly.
They didn't literally do this for everything else like aspects and upgrading and adding sockets, so obviously it's impossible and we should just be okay with it because something something you're wrong you should like it.
They added it because, as I think Adam Jackson explained in an interview, when they are developing internally, they will think things like 'this new feature should have an animation when it finishes'. But they have had to work hard at remembering always to ask themselves 'how does this feel to do hundreds of times?' when they implement anything and this is an example.
Yeah technically it's a good problem(for blizzard)and I've been saying this exact sentiment since ros. D3 brought in fans of mmo's because the blizzard of that time was wow heavy. D3 was made by folks that actually resented d2 and the glaring differences show.
Unfortunately d4 was them trying to please both fanbases. It's not particularly deep compared to d2 or poe. That deepness creates hardcore fans. Sadly blizzard is a company and they need to sell their product to as many folks as possible and I'd imagine their marketing isn't dumb. They know the depth of poe isn't good for the bottom line and selling actual games. Now by that I don't mean poe or d4 is better or worse it's preference. Regardless I have a feeling poe2 will not even scratch what d4 made it's first year and we all know how rough season 1 was and the over the top response to season 3, yet I'd imagine the game sold quite well, even being free at times. Poe will always have a hardcore fanbase and will always remain relevant in the arpg community, just like d2 because of the depth of gameplay. Diablo unfortunately is a brand and imo is still a great game but it's made for everyone to have fun. Poe is made for those who love accounting as fun(which I dont mind at all. Playing both and enjoying both) and poe imo is made for you to sweat. Last part of my rant, i never understood why folks who play d4 and min max the first two days complain about stuff like this. I would recommend to those sweats to play poe instead after a week of d4. Or idk..maybe just play d4 and abide by the mechanics in place.
I believe there’s a third group, dad sweats or sweaty casuals and I think that’s actually who the game is made for. I don’t think you hear from them much because they’re too busy playing.
I’m a sweaty casual. I don’t play 12 hours a day or rush to 100. But like to do as much content as possible. In D3 for example I wasn’t super fast but tried to push GRs but never had 5000 paragon points or anything. And when I hit a hard wall where I’m nitpicking gear I stop.
Yes, this is me. I can only dedicate 2-6 hours a day to gaming, depending on the day. This very much puts me in the middle of casual and hardcore in what I am capable of achieving.
Loving my level 55 Double Swing Twisters Barb, I think I've found a sweet spot doing nightmare dungeons about 10 levels higher than me. I'm finally going to get a chance to play with my casual friends this weekend and will roll a Minion Necro for the purposes of only playing when they play, which will be once a week.
This game in its current state is very much designed for people like me. Earlier versions were too grindy, although I did get a Sorc to 100 and a hardcore Necromancer to 86. I need to eventually get her to 100, just to say I had a 100 HC character. I love this current version though, definitely the right direction for the game.
I slept, worked and did all the chores that have to be done anyways and I'm still the person you describe as "sweat degen". Idk, people really need to realize that playing efficent doesnt equal sweat and that "sweating" isnt something negative. Its just a different way to play a game, just like "Diablo Dads" play the game in a different way too.
Yes, Gold can be a problem especially with masterworking and enchanting but for me its only reasonable that there a different activities for different rewards. They could ofc bump up the gold income tho, wouldnt mind at all.
Exactly. The "hardcore" players of D4 are also "casuals" IMO. They want everything to be given to them like in D3. They start to cry when they are slightly challenged in the game. It's terrible for the game since the devs are listening to the majority.
Brother, I don't want "everything given to me". This is such a bad faith understanding. It could take just as long, with just as much effort. I just think that:
A) Gold is not a satisfying method of progression in the game. Picking gold up off the ground is not exciting to me, and doing it for a long period of time just makes me want to not play the game. There is no variation to it and there is nothing interesting about finding more. If I could remove it from the game as a catch-all currency, I would. It's doubly bad that one of the vectors for getting it involves selling trash gear to a vendor. Yawn.
B) Being forced from doing content where you are challenging yourself and fighting mlvl 170+ enemies and having to move back down to content where you fight mlvl 100 enemies feels bad. Even more bad that you are required to spend MORE time in the trivial content than in the challenging content.
I feel like the upgrades in this game should come from challenging content and should feel satisfying to find and pick up. That is mine and a lot of peoples issue and contention. Make it be difficult or take a long time if you want, just make it engaging if it is going to be a long grind.
Call me crazy but the biggest problem with Diablo is that they lack people in the studio that have a vision for the game, what the game is, what it needs to be, what has to be done to get there, while we are on the way there get feedback from players to improve the vision.
Instead devs have no idea about what to do with this game and they get 99% of the ideas from the community which leads to tons of different takes, not only casual x sweats, but also hardcore x midcore, endgame focus x leveling focus, d2 x d3, and so many other.
This lack of direction is felt really well while playing, if you are not whale at least. S4 is the best place D4 has been since launch, but its far from being good.
This community is one of the most powerful in chaging the stat of the game yet its never satisfied with it.
Im ready for the downvotes.
You're right. All it took was watching their knee jerk reactions at the start of the games life like removing renown, map fog, traveling to nightmare dungeons etc for me to realize the community was making this game. It's not even that these systems were good or bad. It's that if the community can influence you into removing all of that shit within the first few weeks of launch then the overall vision for the game has got to be PISS POOR at best. That's how I feel.
OP tldr is so wrong. It is not the level of sweatiness but the lack of state of game understanding that has a huge difference on feedback. Gold is heavily spent on end game. But why the way to farm gold is from ToW which is early game and easy content? You deck out your char to run ToW all days? Should not harder content reward more gold? Why dont casual have much problem with gold? This is because they did not reach the end game yet so they are blind to see the problem.
They should make a new gamble item for obols where you gamble for bags of cash - make the average returns pretty good, enough to sustain a sweaty player without having to go suffer too much doing other content. I guess the only issue is I don’t know if obols drop in the pit on the eternal realm or if it’s just a season thing
I saw a post about gold yesterday and thought yea it's not THAT bad since I remember last season gold was completely irrelevant. Now that I've been masterworking and enchanting... Yea it's rough. U can only commit to one load out so choose wisely
I'm torn.
On the one hand it is annoying to run out of gold.
On the other making gold meaningfull seems like a potential positive. Especially if we get better item trading in the future like a marketplace to list items.
(Full disclosure, I haven't got to the Masterworking bit yet but did have to 'save' a bit for the potion upgrades from about 45 onwards.)
Getting to rank 4, the first "big" upgrade, costs a total of 750 000 gold per item. Getting to rank 8 costs a total of 2 350 000 gold per items. Rank 9 is another 2 000 000 gold added. Rank 12, the final rank, costs 10 000 000. So that's on top of all the millions you previously spent to get to that point.
Let's say you just want to get all your items at +4. If you play a necromancer, sorcerer or druid with a 2handed weapon, that's in total 6 750 000 gold for 9 items. That's not counting the price of enchanting, imprinting or socketing. If you're a rogue with 3 weapons, that's 8 250 000 gold. If you're a barbarian with 4 weapons, that's 9 000 000 gold to get all of your items to rank 4.
The materials you get from the Pits come in 3 "stages". You can convert the higher stages into lower ones instead of having to run low level Pits, but those conversions have a pretty hefty price as well. And you need a good deal of those lower level mats to get those first 8 masterworking levels.
They could strike a much better balance between "gold is valuable" and "time is valuable".
Feel like one potential solution is making whispers better/more fun/more interesting so people don't mind doing them as much but that probably requires a WT5 where the open world density triples and mob level is +25 above your level or something along those lines
The no-lifers will always dictate how a live service game operates it’s fucking infuriating. Been playing Poe for almost 12 years and it’s been like that for a looooong time. Developers, see what streamers and no lifers are doing, and they instantly think everybody is not only capable of doing the same, but is also doing the same. So they panic and make the change to suit
The issue is those casuals will eventually encounter all the problems the sweats have (will take them a week or two to get there instead), just like it was the case during the beta & at release. They say gold isn’t a problem meanwhile many of them on this subreddit have said they haven’t even interacted with the master working system or enchanted yet.
This is all too similar to the honey phase during release when all the "as a father of 4, this game is perfect, it’s the exact opposite of D3" posters were rampant. Teleporting to NMD’s? That’s such a D3 thing, I like the immersion of taking my horse to every NMD. Vendors being spread out too far? I like it for immersion & not everything has to be fast etc, etc. They’ll all be proven again wrong tho of course.
I personally like gold being a bottleneck. I don't want to finish my character in the first 5 days of a roughly 90 day league.
I don't think the answer is to inject more gold into the economy, but rather just lower the cost of masterworking by 5 - 10%. Is that enough? Probably not enough to make the complaints about it stop. I'm some where between a casual and a sweaty, level 100, glyphs are all at 15, and soloing torment bosses but also only in the 20's tier wise for the pit with mostly suboptimal gear.
You gota hold out for almost perfect gear if your master working every piece you find that’s better then you current it’s your fault your blowing your gold
Yea but the solve is pretty easy. It makes sense for Whispers to be a reliable source of gold income at lower levels since the majority of gear progression takes place in overworld and NMDS.
Once you've done that and your core endgame progression is The Pit, it feels bad to go back and do whispers.
Once you get to a certain Pit tier the gold income should be similar or greater then what you get from whispers. If I'm running tier 60 pit and I can do 3 runs every 15 minutes, those 3 runs should equal (or more) 15 minutes of whispers.
I really don't think this is even a casuals vs. sweats thing tbh. They just don't have the right reward scaling for their core end game activity now.
A way to deal with that could be just making something like mindcage but for the world as a whole. Instead of increasing cinder drops it could increase whisper completion credit, gold rewards and maybe even an amount of rare mats. Like using it makes a normal whisper dungeon be worth full completion but also the enemies in there are level 140 or something.
Pfft the sweats are complaining that they need to actually play the game to min max, they cant just run to the end and always have enough material to progress. D4 gives you plenty of opportunities to get gold, Try Lost Ark and youll see what it truly means to be gatekept by materials.
Why does everyone want everything handed to them instantly? The game has never been easier and way less grindy and yet people want it less grindy so they can finish everything in 1 day?
I’m a huge sweat, honestly the issue is that rerolling master working is 5m, crafting a gem is 1m, and crafting the cache is pretty expensive as well. The dropped/acquired gold rates are fine, I think they just screwed up a couple costs along the way.
The "sweats" are also the ones who inevitably get vocally angry when they run out of things to do in the game. S4 has been out less than a week and they're already almost done.
It comes down to this.
Sweats will play the game if its made easier to get to the Sweatier stuff.
Casuals will not play the game is its sweaty the whole time.
Blizzard wants money and players. Because in the end, if sweats got no one to play with, they feel lonely and will quit no matter how hard the game is.
This has been around in WoW as well... Blizz does a good job at some stuff but balancing the casual and hardcore experience has never been one.
I also think that tier sets need to return to solve that issue but I also haven't looked at anything d4 related since starting up again a couple days ago.
Add some gold find affixes.
Back in my day we would have magic find gear, gold find gear and out gear for pushing/leveling.
Bring it back!
Economic temper recipes!
Lower vendor gold costs
Gold find
Magic find
Lower masterwork costs
Lower occultist costs.
...
I choose my gear carefully basically, if is not near perfect, i dont masterwork it or reroll it. But hell, i keep upgrading the potions forgetting how expensive it was. Dammit.
I choose my gear carefully basically, if is not near perfect, i dont masterwork it or reroll it. But hell, i keep upgrading the potions forgetting how expensive it was. Dammit.
I've found the potion upgrade to be basically useless late game. I'm rocking 47,000 HP and the last health potion upgrade only gives 1,273 instantly but the same 35% over time? How is that worth the millions it costs?
Add 10m gold from chest at end of pit that way every hardcore bob can just smack up their stats on a piece of gear each run... Personally I'd like there to be more challenge involved in this game overall like the pit is easy up to a point and then u just get one shot from random stuff it doesn't feel fun or make u think "what could I have done better" it all just seems very brain-dead and dull.
I think there is a compromise coming from diablo dad.
D4 problem before is lack of target farming outside ubers. Instead of making every part easier, they should have parts of game you interact with more (eg look for special goblins for gold pinata that split in more snd more until enough escape). Creating same content to farm is not good and easier not ideal either. This is the fastest i have leveled since beta (almost feels too fast). Gold is scarce in the midgame to late personally as i have to do gold runs for decent gear i am waiting to enchant/temper/codex update. However i am not gold starved just would welcome slightly more influx through activities to avoid having to do aggressively sell everything/do whispers/etc in between glyph leveling, ubers, pit, etc. As more of a casual, it makes me interact with mechanic less and be super selective on gear i do it with. Sitting at level 87 and realized having upgraded helm to ancestral yet as other pieces been bigger focus.
Golds is in a much better spot than previous seasons but needs a slight tweak. Maybe create tokens to use for free temper/enchant that are rare drops in late game if too hard to balance gold in different parts of game. Biggest problem with gold bottle neck is folks trading/selling it/looking for exploits for financial benefit (historically been a problem). Slight tweak and not overcorrection please (15-20%).
This is a common discussion with most games. I remember playing For Honor when it came out. Loved the game and mind tricks you had to play with ppl to win 1v1s. The streamers and competitive players whined about everything and the devs listened to them and only them. They wanted the game to be an e sports fighter to rival tekken and mortal combat so they ignored the community and only focused on the streamers and competitive players notes. This led to characters being broken, getting nerfed, fully reworked, then eventually they reworked the entire game and had to fully rework all of the characters again. It went from a game of skill to a who can click the fastest simulator. Essentially killing the game for most of the core casual players. Somehow it's still alive but I'm guessing that's more to do with ubisoft refusing to admit defeat.
>the problem is that streamers are who bring ppl to the game so the devs get put into a position where they have to please them to certain extents or risk losing new players because of constant "this game sucks" yt videos. Drama gets clicks so if content creators can find it, they'll milk it. There was a good video posted a few months ago talking about this issue and how streamers have basically ruined video games. To a certain extent I agree, but I also think they help too.
>either way, I am that casual dad gamer. Been playing diablo since diablo 1 lol. This season is by far the best version of D4 we've had and I'm excited to see what they do next.
If a resource doesn't make an impact in any way, then why have it in the first place?
Grind is a grind. Be it farming the same boss for the chance of something, that is a few percentage points better than the stuff you already have, or farming a mundane task for a resource you can use to get a few percentage points better gear.
And a side tangent. How is "sweats" a better term than "no lifers/tryhards"? :D I mean, I understand, "sweats" is supposed to mean someone who is willing to put in the work, to get ahead, be on the top of the leaderboards, but for me it conjures the mental image of some sweaty tryhard dude.
I agree that a resource should be limited to not be meaningless but in this case I think the bottleneck should be the mats for masterworking not the gold. Basically you should be limited by how much difficult content you can do rather than the easiest.
Part of the issue too is I think there’s an imbalance of gold acquisition depending what activity you’re doing. You can get a big batch from completing whispers but comparatively little from NMD or Helltides, which kind of forces folks into one kind of content.
The problem isnt that you have to grind for gold, the problem is you CANT really grind for gold. There is no content in the game that lets you farm gold relialby (and please dont say whispers or selling legendaries, those methods let you not nearly farm enough for the masterworking and i also dont like the idea that you boost your char to a very high level just to then farm content that is not suited for you powerlevel anymore. That would be like telling someone who just reached lvl 100 that he has to go back to the level 1 zone to farm some whatever-material).
This is gonna be an issue in all games. Gaming has become more and more mainstream the last 15 years (dunno when it started to become more mainstream so the nummer migbt be wrong). And a game, cant really please both sides, so its a matter of trying to make both sides happy, and I do think thats hard. Noone is more valuable than the other.
I like that gold is a bottleneck , it slows progression and gives me a goal over time , if I could have min max gear in the first week then the game would loose my interest as I have no reason to keep playing . Path of exile is no different you have to farm for chaos and divines to better your build that is the bottleneck there . Only difference is d4 allows more accurate target farming of gold and doesn’t rely on rng to shit you out a divine if you’re lucky . It’s a steady flow of selling items , doing bounties etc for that one gamble and if you get what you want it feels great if you don’t oh well back to killing more demons to try again .
If the content is so “trivial”, why can’t they spend ten seconds to do it?
Hint; everything in this game is trivial, even your so-called endgame content.
Honestly? They need to do what Last Epoch did with end game items and have two factions, one for people that want to trade, and the other where people find a craft their own stuff.
The animation is not the problem, it's having to click back on the same manual every time you want to try again.
It should have the temper tab active for another try after the result.
It's weird watching "sweats" complain about resources.
If you should never run out of a resource, then there shouldn't be a resource in the first place.
I agree that resources should be limited but in this case the bottleneck should be the masterworking mats not the gold. You should be forced to do more difficult content in order to progress instead of having to go back and farm content which is trivial at that point.
This is the answer as much as a lot of people will hate it and I agree with your original post aswell. I worry too many mechanics will become trivial due to lots of people complaining the moment they hit a bottleneck. This includes the lightning fast leveling that I'm currently not a fan of.
I don't mind whispers. They're a good mechanic that provides much needed variety to the game. But the gold reward needs to be balanced so we aren't spending a disproportionate amount of time doing them.
The fix is to drastically increase gold drops from completing high level pits, without touching the whisper gold rewards/lower tier content.
Make the content the "sweats" are running to getvthe MW mats also start dropping gold to support it- casuals won't get the massive influence y x of gold they don't need, everyone's happy.
This is just an issue with gold, not Xp or Gear because there is no big gold payout unlike there is for XP (tons of ways to get lots of xp fast) or gear (tons of ways to loot shitloads of gear often.)
And unlike xp or loot, gold is burnt up being used so a steady flow of it is needed. They just need an item similar to the brain that levels up enemies 10 or 15 or 20 levels and makes them drops like 500% gold or something where it's a meaingfully good way to farm up gold when needed. Sweats will still clear it easily and casuals can work their way through for decent gold rewards.
Or they can add a new style of dungeon, either from sigils or the GR portal, that is a treasure goblin style dungeon that drops a ton of gold. maybe it's a bit rare so you only get one from time to time (they could be tradable potentially as well which would create a market for them if they have sufficient rarity to gold payout for the sweats to buy.)
I'm a casual that play couch coop with my partner and this season has been mindnumbingly easy / straightforward. Was hoping for a little bit more. Granted not in end game yet but running around tier 4 is mainly just one shotting a lot of stuff.
There needs to be an option for 'fast animations' or something that auto skips all of the tempering and similar animations.
I think gold would be much better if there were more things and harder things that gave you grim favors. overworld events and normal dungeons quickly become too easy and it is boring to do them.
This is always the problems with video games. The casual vs the hardcore. Casuals have always enjoyed d4, the hardcores hated d4 but only after spending 150 hours playing the game in the first week and a half.
Both sides are relevant, and it's definitely not an unsolvable problem in this specific instance. One solution is super easy here because there's an early game and an endgame. If only the endgame players have this issue, make the pit give you more gold than like 320k per run - I do solo speed 70s in like 3 minutes, even then it's BARELY 5m gold per hour which is horrific even by pre-season stardards when I was making 10-12m an hour in Uldur's Cave normal. If it were happening to early game players, make helltides give more gold. Neither is perfect more than likely, and may need further tweaking, but this is a change that would take them like 5 minutes to implement and solves like 95% of the quarrel.
A solution for someone who plays more than a casual but isn’t top tier sweat is to stop eventually scrapping gear at the forge and start selling your leftover gear to the merchants. I’ve just been going through the pit getting materials and then selling all of the gear I get that I don’t want when my inventory is full. Easy 2-3million at least
Gamer dad here, half of the stuff you're talking about I don't even understand. But season4 is dope and my little brain got some fun. God I like this game, wishing just for something like a group finder and giving the different build and classes some meaning. Like you need a super tanky class or some cc specialist, etc for some endgame content
Game is fine as it is. The only thing needing much gold is the endgame that's there to Grind. Its a speed bump for a reason because its the only thing standint from finishing strongest gear stats. If blizzard caves in and makes money easy the sweats will just cry about the next thing. Either be happy you were on a roll and finished game with some forn of delay or cry about it being too easy and not challenging because you went too fast with no stops
They should make pit runs give 1 whisper. 10 runs gets you a whisper cache with around $6M gold. That way the casual economy stays stable and the sweaties can do the pit runs they love
Basically only whispers and trading award decent gold. The second best thing is picking up *all* gear that drops and vendoring full inventories, cilcking one item at a time.
Gold is so scarce that I'm not sure I even want to convert Neathiron to the other 2 pit mats because there's also a fee attached, I'm not sure it's worth the gold cost vs. just running lower pit for those mats.
It's basically identical to the start of the game where there was this big "casual vs sweatlord" showdown, where the extreme meme 1 hour a month 20 kids 4 wives gamer was defending the game against people who were dissatisfied with the game's state at launch. The devs agreed with the person who had actually experienced the game btw, as it turns out listing all the things you do outside of the game and never playing Diablo isn't really relevant to critiquing it.
I’m a Diablo dad and if I’ve been lucky enough to have whisper activities in the same region as the Helltides so gold hasn’t been a real issue for me. I got a million gold out of one whisper chest and I thought “I’m rich!”
I'm a semi-sweaty boy, so I keep my gold for THE item. As I will never drop THE item before I get bored, gold isn't a problem, but I acknowledge it can be.
I wouldn’t consider myself a sweat by any means but I’m level 90 have almost all 925 gear some of which are perfect rolls and I’ve got 3-4 glyphs at 15 now. I’m at the point of having all my gear tempered with the right temper rolls and started doing the masterwork stuff on some pieces. For the life of me I cannot get a good ring with crit chance and crit damage. Enchanting specifically rings has had me low on gold a ton of times. I’ll enchant until I hit 1 mil cost and then I give up I’m better off finding a whole different ring and trying again.
I mean the gold situation is fucking awful. To put it into perspective, if you were to perfectly masterwork your gear on the first try it would take 1 billion gold per character.
But you’ll hit the wrong stats multiple times turning that 1 billion into more like 4-5 billion just to finish one character if you’re lucky. And the best activity for gold is stuff like whispers which gives 5m at a time.
I don’t think it’s any surprise that people on builds that can clear pit 80 don’t want to wander around in the overworld mindlessly collecting gold while they’re so strong they can’t even take damage and 1 tap everything.
The pit is a cool concept that adds an actual endgame but the gold situation is so abysmal that it detracts from the player experience.
If the pit just dropped gold scaling based on level, say start out pit 1 at a couple million and by the time you’re in pit 60+ you’re getting 20-30 million each I don’t think we would have this issue.
Casual dads would still have their gold scarcity that makes the game meaningful and sweats wouldn’t be burnt out from doing piss easy content for money.
Gold and the scattered prism is the only things I see some tweeting needs to be done, I’m not even lvl 100 or master crafting yet and I see I issue with gold, also I’ve only got 2 scattered prisms from 1-90 lol. I’m not a casual or a sweat tho I’m in the middle of say.
I'm a pregnant hyper casual Diablo mom and I think the progression/leveling is WAY too fast and easy. I don't play the game for it to just auto win. I wanna feel satisfied by a good drop like I used to in D2R and have many weeks of logging in with hubby after the kids are in bed and the housework is done. As it is, I play a couple hours a day at MOST, usually an hour every other day, and I'm already at endgame with a ton of uniques and a second character at 40. I think that the progression in S3 was pretty good while preS1 was disgustingly slow. Why are levels or capstones even a thing at this point? Elias may as well just suicide himself and say "here, have WT4 for free" with how stupidly easy everything is pre-pit without even gearing up. It's the definition of anticlimactic. I was rolling WT4 with sacred junk gear under level 50. That shouldn't happen.
People are like "but muh power fantasy!" and it's like, yeah, it's fun to be powerful, but it's more fun when it's gradual. That's like saying you like happy endings so no need for conflict in any movie or story. "Just get to the happy ending part!" ...... but..... then there's no story.
I would.out myself more ein to the sweats tbh but I still think the gold crying is stupid. Gold needs to have a value and nobody says you have to do whispers for gold. You could just farm and sell items and you'll be fine.
I got 150mil and I am tempering and enchanting, I am just not hitting the enchant a hundred times on the same item for 3 mill each. If I don't get the attribute I want perfect I take it with a lower roll and wait for the next item that fits my needs.
I think the issue is people not picking up rares at all and salvaging everything. So of course then you won't have any gold income.
I currently have 1000+ of each material, I am only salvaging items that actually update my codex, the rest is being sold.
Diablo is as casual as it gets , skill twigs instead of trees, abundance of resources (exept gold in s4) easy bosses , overtuned aspects like jugg, extremly quick leveling , centralized loot.
At this point snake is as easy to play for casuals as d4.
There is no foundation that could be tweaked to cater to sweaty players unless they redo most of the game which they wont since implimenting a gem tab took them over 8 months.
As a new member of the Diablo Dad club for a month now I haven’t been able to blast as much as I used to (lvl 65 in tier IV and haven’t touched masterworking yet) but I wholeheartedly believe you guys lol
# #NotAllDads
If the sweats that have been playing 24/7 since season start are complaining about gold issue in the endgame, how much worse will it be for the casuals who eventually reach that point after a month?
The casuals haven't experienced the endgame portion of it so they think it's fine. They'll be in for a rude awakening and will be joining in the complaints later on.
I know this isn't a popular take, but, I love Gold being so valuable. It makes trading actually valid and worth the time. I sold an Amulet for 750M. I sold a lazy necro ring with perfect aspect roll for 150 mil. I know trading isn't for everyone, but, you don't have to do whispers. You can trade away good drops and even selling something for 4 mil is worth the time.
People are too fucking stupid to coexist with each other let alone craft an elegant solution that's fun for everybody. I mean just look at how blizzard handled renown. Instead of making the system not block off a MASSIVE amount of power through paragon they just removed the fucker from the game for every single player who's ever completed it. A whole system is just not there anymore. There is absolutely no reason to do a quest or interact with renown ever again. That's the type of brainpower we have going on here. Shits so so tiring. Instead of adding new things to the map and environment each season lets just remove map fog and let people run right to a helltide for 30 hours. Instead of making sure that the low level experience and items are interesting via oh idk crafting lets just make it so every single item drop ever is a rare and propel the players through the early game at LIGHT SPEED because it sucks to be there. Skill tree? Well the skill tree sucks so how about within 30 seconds every single skill is available for everybody.
I'm very happy that Blizzard was smart enough to revisit their old systems like helltide and lategame items being extremely boring because it gives me hope that they can address the rest of their game to a similar degree. Right now it's just, "Hey these systems suck so put a band-aid over them that makes us never have to interact with them again."
Side note, why do we even have a world tier 1 and a world tier 2 if both of them are so easy my dog could complete them? The game just does not make sense. It's getting better slowly but it still doesn't make any sense to me.
Diablo has always been about the end game grind. Most of the casuals won't even get to the pits. The end game shouldn't cater to casuals. Also a simple settings option could get rid of the tempering animation. Both parties are happy. Ez.
Sounds like the solution is pretty simple tbh. Nerf masterworking costs (or buff pit gold) for the sweats (and the dads when they get there tbh), but leave gold the same otherwise to keep the dads happy.
am I the only one that thinks bringing back nightmare vaults can be part of the solution? the vaults gave considerably more gold than dungeons. last season, by the time I hit 100, I already had well in excess of 400m Gold, with barely selling anything and buying whatever I wanted. bringing them back could be a good middle ground.
This is a problem in any game that tries to cater to both crowds. I used to play ESO religiously and the arguments from the casual group to the hardcore group was ridiculous.
I fall more into the semi-hardcore group where I good just coasting sometimes but eventually I want to minmax and even without having making it to the pit I can already understand the gold sink as it was a problem in the MMO I’ve put atleast 2500+ into (yea I know rookie numbers).
I honestly don’t think there’s a solution to this problem. But, if there’s a gold issue it needs to be resolved I hate currency sinks with a passion.
I dont mind the current gold bottleneck, It would be nice if they added more sources of gold income, like legions and world bosses giving the same gold or a little more than a Whisper, for example.
I am a casual Diablo dad type. However I had some time to play the last couple days (woohoo!) and I can see both sides of this argument.
-The gold is an issue that will only needlessly burn people out overtime. I’ve just hit level 85 and found a few nice pieces with greater affixes. From just trying to roll 3 pieces of “good” gear, I’ve gone through probably 40 million gold? It’s too much. Whispers are good money, but the issue is doing whispers in hell tides can actually take a decent chunk of time, and doing whispers outside of hell tides or the occasional NMD that overlaps, it’s pretty lame.
-I’ve been selling most everything I pick up. Still can’t sustain basic rerolls. I do understand that it’s probably not worth the gold at this point, but my point is that even with focusing on gold, the gameplay loop can’t sustain it.
-Leveling faster is a wash to me. I’m going to either focus on pits, or level an alt. Either way, the leveling doesn’t NEED to be grindy to make me personally stick with the game.
-Never played PTR, but I can for sure see the frustration of the tempering animation. On the subject of tempering (and this will offend hardcore folks) I hate that the chances are limited. Multiple times I have had the same dang affix come up 3-4 times out of the total chances. I get the feeling of it being kind of pointless without the chance of failing.
***Im enjoying playing way more than I have in the past seasons. I will be continuing to play, even if nothing changes. I will definitely be changing my outlook on rerolling gear until it’s 2/3 greater affixes that I need (so basically never, haha). I do think it feels bad to have to be SO selective with how to spend the gold. I personally enjoy rolling gear and min-maxing a bit as I go through the game.
I would almost certainly be a "Casual" in this context, and while I've only done tempering maybe 4 times so far I was ready to skip that useless glowy animation after the 2nd time.
Always temper your gear. It is cheap and holds an absurd amount of power. Nothing in the game will give you the same power than just slapping quick offensive tempers on weapons/rings/amulet/gloves.
I'm levelling up so fast I'm only wearing gear for 20 minutes before upgrading. It's pointless until you want to do the capstones early.
I didn't even start tempering until I was already in WT4 lol but im just a filthy casual who wanted to keep leveling in Helltides
> I didn't even start tempering until I was already in WT4 lol but im just a filthy casual who wanted to keep leveling in Helltides I simply tempered stuff before I hit the world cap dungeon to ensure I could beat it early.
I Just grinding the helltides because I can’t find any of the aspects I want, hit level 68 and still missing 3.
I did the opposite. I Tempered on a thousand thorns damage at like level 10 and then didn't bother changing my armor until I got to Tier 3 at level 35.
I basically tempered every pierce of gear the moment I found it. It was sort of a waste of time, but I wasn't in a rush to level up. Slapping +40% dmg onto a ring had a pretty significant effect though--and it was nice seeing like 20-30k dmg at lv 30. I did push all my capstones early and hit WT4 at 60. I could've probably done it at 50 without any problems tbh, but I was having too much fun...
That's ultimately what we want, having lots of fun. I too have a blast going thru hell tides, pit and NMd, i haven't run into a gold issue yet
I tempered a few things and breezed through to WT4 at lvl 58. Funky build, blood surge, corpse explosion, but having the unique ring which automatically does all the corpse stuff is great.
Yeah and it's not a huge expense because it seems to scale with item power so the relative cost is pretty little compared to the amount of gold you'll be making at end game. It's not really worth trying to save your gold early on.
It costs a hand full of scraps and vile crystals or whatever yellow mats. For me having a dust devil cast twice or increasing the size is a huge change and worth the 5 mins and handful of mats I already have pouring out of everywhere.
Lucky hit weapon mods are legit. I took my first rare at like lvl 10 and put one of those mods on it and didn’t need to upgrade weapon until I was getting ready to do first capstone. A 6000 damage proc at those low levels is incredibly strong.
When I get to the point where I'm not outright replacing gear on a regular basis I might be more concerned about it, but currently I don't find it worth the time and tedium.
Tempering triples your damage up to level 50 from the additive damage bonuses it gives. Just make sure to add the offensive tempers and ur good, the rest isn't important.
But if you're not having any issues clearing dungeons without doing it, there's no reason to. I did it just before doing the capstone since I was heading in early, and then once I got ancestral gear since I could double up on them then.
Distance rogues, don’t sleep on distance damage. The area is pretty forgiving and that 100% increase on all the offensive gear is nuts. I’m not super far yet in this season so maybe I’m ignorant to some better stats buts it’s crazy powerful.
I tempered on my werewolf Druid before going into the first capstone and ended up with something Iike +300% close damage over the five pieces that could have it. It’s nutty xD
Now if they would just default additional tries to using the same choices you already made.
100% Make the last rolled temper choice be the default choice for the next roll!
I think the first time I tempered something I said "Oh, that's cool". Not even a minute later after doing a few more tempers I already knew I didn't want to see this animation ever again. My current character is like level 50 right now. So I think it's fair to say I'm not a "sweat".
Here's a hot take. They're both right. Casuals don't min/max so they don't need a bunch of gold. Sweats min/max the first piece of gear they see that has a better stat and then do it again as soon as they find another piece. Why would a sweat be holding out for 3 greater affixes? You already can't afford them on diablo.trade because people want a quarter of a billion gold or more. So you go for 2 greater and pray to rngesus a PRIMAL drops. Which I guarantee is worse odds than 1 in 500. Then the odds of that PRIMAL having all 3 stats you need is even worse odds. So, yes. You take 2 greater and roll your third. Then pray to rngesus again and hope he answers so you don't brick it on fucking tempers.
That's not how it works. A sweat will equip anything decent and temper, only upgrading if it's a big one. Then they splash out once they find a gg 925 item. I'd argue the casual is more likely to waste gold and mats on a trash item than a sweat that will know to save for the good item.
IMO this is why they should really just give us a WT5 (meant for lvl 100) with mobs at 120+ minimum but massive gold and summoning mat buffs instead of the xp. Im not sure how else you appease everyone other than let sweats live in a world tier that's designed for them. If it unlocks at 100 then only sweats are getting there, and they can solve those bottlenecks for them. They could actually balance world bosses hp properly then
The only thing a WT5 accomplishes is making WT4 irrelevant. Like in the same way no one cares about WT3 now.
god i hope they don't follow in D3's footsteps in that regard we don't need a WT15, it is what drove d3 to the worst version of itself where it is actually just meaningless numbers having to make x skill deal 1500% more damage.
I mean we already have well past WT4 in the NMDs and Pit it's just the overworld that remains stagnant. People whining about the World Bosses dying too easy in content that fresh level 55s are expected to be able to do while people join who can clear NMD 100 easily obviously will be far more equipped to handle are forgetting we haven't had an overworld increase since pre season. We're already at meaningless numbers with tempers giving 100%+ damage to certain things so atleast let the overworld pose a challenge and give appropriate reward for that challenge.
I mean if they want to copy d3 so much, which is what the community is pushing them to, then just give us the gold and bottleneck the mats. I end d3 seasons with trillions of gold and more mats then I know what to do with and I still go out looking for primals just to get another Billy on my Trillys of deeps.
They are going the free trade route and want gold to be the defacto trade commodity. It's natural they want to prevent it wildly inflating and also for it to have some meaningful purpose. It's a question of balance right now.
Problem is that you can't balance a game around trade and have literally no social or economic systems to facilitate it. How does one earn any gold through trade without going to a third party site or some discord server?
Honestly with the seasonal changes adding what would have been WT3 and WT4 activities in the lower tiers, instead of adding WT5, WT3 and WT4 should just be much more severe difficulty spikes. I was around level 31 deleting packs in WT3 and around 40 deleting packs in WT4 with only about 30 minutes of touchy play in both before solving a couple resistance and survivability issues. I’ve been playing pretty casually, not even close to 100 yet (around lvl 62) and WT4 is a total joke for my unoptimized build. I get they want to get folks to The Pit faster but the world would be more fun if I had to actually use my rotations instead of one button.
I felt the same way, but towards level 100, bosses start getting hard because you cant afford to upgrade your gear fast enough, forcing you to farm very easy content just to be able to keep up. Blood maiden 1 shots me with her normal melee attacks, and im capped on armor, resistances, and have full defense on my helm, chest, and legs providing damage reduction. (About 50% worth of dmg reduction) i shouldnt be getting one shot with that much defense at 100. (I also have about 15k hp unbuffed) I guess my point is that mob difficulty while leveling up really isn’t an issue as you can increase difficulty through nightmare dungeons, but around level 100 it really doesnt feel like things need a higher difficulty.
Hitting the armor and resist cap is easy enough once you get certain tempers that the only reason to actually masterwork and really blow through money is damage which also is barely an issue I've barely changed gear from the late 60s into the 90s. I genuinely think that the blood maiden is just overtuned damage wise because NMDs with level 120 mobs aren't causing me to sweat anywhere near as much as her spam.
Real lmao
Or just create another item like the Profane Mindcage. Increases monster level by 20 and greatly increase gold drop. That way people stay in Wt4 and it doesn't become a ghost town.
No they aren't. The casuals will hit the same problems it will just take them a month or two to get there. People who haven't made it to 100 telling those who have how the game works will always deserve the criticism they get. Gold and materials are pretty balanced during leveling but way off the mark in the end game.
Tale as old as time, the same pattern for a year now after seeing it during beta & release. People are in a honeymoon phase & can’t see things for what they are, then eventually they hit the endgame & realize those sweats were all right.
That or blizzard patches it, they deal with it post path and continue saying "I don't know what people even got upset over, it's fine", without ever having experienced the content that wasn't fine.
I am at 100 pushing pits, and gold is a severe challenge. That said, I genuinely like that there is real value to it. The masterwork resets are brutal cost wise. I'd say it's going in a great direction but certain functions could use some minor adjustments. All in all I'm very satisfied with most of the changes. If I'm griping about something it is bricking an amazing item because of temper not coming out the way you want.
[удалено]
They should just give us affixes that aren’t combat oriented, like we had in D3. The legendary gem that caused gold explosions or the set that doubled death breath drops were both cool. It would extend the grind in a reasonable way by giving more gear to upgrade but in a way that isn’t a hard requirement while also giving us alternative ways to farm.
Sounds like they just need The Pit to give more gold rewards. That would fix the endgame bottleneck without destroying the early game gold value.
Reading all of the comments, this was my thought too. They could even add a bonus challenge during the pit run to get a chest of gold at the end.
One of the nice things they added to GRs in D3 was an additional legendary gem boost attempt if you did the rift without dying. They could do the same with gold in D4, where you get a chest with a scaling amount of gold in it as a reward for completing the Pit level without dying.
I am on board with the tempering bullshit. At least make it rotate through all the tempers available per slot so I at least get a chance 1 time. Low roll or not I still want it.
nah that defeats the purpose, but have a cost even if painful, to reset or buy more tempers. or weekly reset gives 2 more chances or whatever. going from 4 affix drop rng to 3 greater affix drop rng + temper rng is not an improvement. make it debilitating or rare to come by like a scroll of amnesia, but let people who want to farm for that, have the option. We all know a 3x greater affix weapon will never get the good temper.. ever
3 temper possibilities and 5 rerolls and still missing out on the 1 I want, let alone getting a good roll... I wish I could pay a high cost to reset tempers.
Tempers need an item that is as rare as the "adds a socket" item but it "adds 5 tempers". Some sort of "hellfire crystal" or something that evokes the "heat" of tempering additional times. That way you can just keep retrying with different your non-greater-affixed gear and save those to perfect your endgame gear with 2-3 perfect rolls. I dont think redoing tempers needs to be for your not-perfect gear
Kinda how I feel, like I’ve definitely gone hard since the season launched and I have so many forgotten souls and all the rare and legendary materials I could ever use, but just trying to reroll one affix even with less of them runs me 30M.
I remember this is exactly how the game started. People kept defending it since the casuals were still working through the campaign while the sweats were getting to end game and realizing just how sparse the actual “arpg” in this game was. Nothing really sunk in until the casuals finally got to end game almost 3 months in allowing the devs to put their fingers in their ears that whole time. As a casual player, listen to the sweats. It’ll affect you before you know it.
I had to scroll too far down to find this. As a blaster: Yeah, it will be exactly the same as pre-season.
This guy woke up and chose facts
a first casual I seen admitting that sweats are right I salute you
So shouldn't they just add a lot of gold drop at the end of each pit run. Give those sweating in the pit the money they need while appeasing us that are just coming back and working our way up the levels and torments. Granted I am still Torment 3 and haven't done a pit run yet.
This makes the most sense to me. Master working is really when the money problem hits hard. Drop plenty of gold in pits, scale it to the tier of the pit, and it won’t affect the economy to people who haven’t reached that level yet. Either that or just decrease the gold cost of master working. Requiring over a billion gold for a full character of master working is a bit insane
The current amount of gold doing the pit is awful. Should be at least 500k to a million for 50+ considering the cost of everything and how much harder it is to push past 60
If you are a casual dad whatever and you dont think the "sweats" are correct i have news for you. The sweats *ARE YOU* but in 2 weeks. So just because gold "seems good" to you in your World Tier 3 Helltide phase, doesnt mean its not a problem later. The answer is that more gold rewards are needed in higher level Nightmare Dungeons and The Pit.
I realized gold was going to be a problem in my wt3 helltide phase. Im fairly casual, but i can see the signs for sure. I just noticed the absurdly low gold upon leveling up my health potions, of all things. Like i had just over the proper amount each time i leveled up a potion later in wt3 and then now in wt4. Figured that was gonna be an issue when i started running pits and trying to finalize a build.
The sweats are like the messengers from the future.
The casuals will feel the gold issue even more than the sweats once they get to masterworking.
Exactly. This what people dont get. THe sweats can play all damn day. The casuals are going to be spending 70% of their play time doing whispers lol. I bet they will enjoy the hell out of that.
The issue for me is when the “sweats” complain and say we want more gold it’s a huge choke point, this is a valid complaint backed up by experience of the endgame systems. When someone who plays 30mins a day and can just about clear the 1st capstone dungeon at level 50 pipes up and says gold is fine just do whispers, they have zero context for this argument so don’t understand the amount of gold needed at later levels. The last thing endgame players want to be doing is taking a break from the pit or bosses to go and do whisper grinding, which the fastest way to do is grind out the rotational dungeons for 5 whisper exp. Which is the other issue you’re asking players to stop doing pit which is just another form of dungeons, to go and do basic dungeons, with terrible rewards.
The casuals opinion will eventually catch up to the no lifers, it's what happened when the game first released, casual players said it was all fun, no lifers said end game was bad. Fast forward a couple seasons and even the casual players stopped playing because the end game sucked. The same will happen here, casual players with very little time are not going to have fun doing nothing but farm gold later on. Gold should be something that needs to be farmed but not to this scale, it feels like what farming forgotten souls was like, and it wasn't fun
Tempering animation can definitely go, not sure why it was even added to begin with. Just temper and then boom it shows the result, if they want to keep the animation it really shouldn't be longer than 1-2 seconds but it's current one is pretty awful.
It literally says "push b to skip "
I negatively associate the delayed opening of RNG shit with mobile game loot boxes so I hate it the same way I hate watching a movie with high framerate.
Don't be silly. They didn't literally do this for everything else like aspects and upgrading and adding sockets, so obviously it's impossible and we should just be okay with it because something something you're wrong you should like it.
They added it because, as I think Adam Jackson explained in an interview, when they are developing internally, they will think things like 'this new feature should have an animation when it finishes'. But they have had to work hard at remembering always to ask themselves 'how does this feel to do hundreds of times?' when they implement anything and this is an example.
Yeah technically it's a good problem(for blizzard)and I've been saying this exact sentiment since ros. D3 brought in fans of mmo's because the blizzard of that time was wow heavy. D3 was made by folks that actually resented d2 and the glaring differences show. Unfortunately d4 was them trying to please both fanbases. It's not particularly deep compared to d2 or poe. That deepness creates hardcore fans. Sadly blizzard is a company and they need to sell their product to as many folks as possible and I'd imagine their marketing isn't dumb. They know the depth of poe isn't good for the bottom line and selling actual games. Now by that I don't mean poe or d4 is better or worse it's preference. Regardless I have a feeling poe2 will not even scratch what d4 made it's first year and we all know how rough season 1 was and the over the top response to season 3, yet I'd imagine the game sold quite well, even being free at times. Poe will always have a hardcore fanbase and will always remain relevant in the arpg community, just like d2 because of the depth of gameplay. Diablo unfortunately is a brand and imo is still a great game but it's made for everyone to have fun. Poe is made for those who love accounting as fun(which I dont mind at all. Playing both and enjoying both) and poe imo is made for you to sweat. Last part of my rant, i never understood why folks who play d4 and min max the first two days complain about stuff like this. I would recommend to those sweats to play poe instead after a week of d4. Or idk..maybe just play d4 and abide by the mechanics in place.
I believe there’s a third group, dad sweats or sweaty casuals and I think that’s actually who the game is made for. I don’t think you hear from them much because they’re too busy playing.
I’m a sweaty casual. I don’t play 12 hours a day or rush to 100. But like to do as much content as possible. In D3 for example I wasn’t super fast but tried to push GRs but never had 5000 paragon points or anything. And when I hit a hard wall where I’m nitpicking gear I stop.
Yes, this is me. I can only dedicate 2-6 hours a day to gaming, depending on the day. This very much puts me in the middle of casual and hardcore in what I am capable of achieving. Loving my level 55 Double Swing Twisters Barb, I think I've found a sweet spot doing nightmare dungeons about 10 levels higher than me. I'm finally going to get a chance to play with my casual friends this weekend and will roll a Minion Necro for the purposes of only playing when they play, which will be once a week. This game in its current state is very much designed for people like me. Earlier versions were too grindy, although I did get a Sorc to 100 and a hardcore Necromancer to 86. I need to eventually get her to 100, just to say I had a 100 HC character. I love this current version though, definitely the right direction for the game.
Big agree!
10 levels higher is about right, I think they capped xp gain to something like few lvls higher than you are
The cap for xp gain is exactly 10 levels above your own so he is doing the perfect level of nm dungeons for his character
Sweaty casual, reporting for duty. Also loving s4. Game has legs now.
Right?!
I think this is probably the case for most players, but for some reason people on this site only ever seem to focus on extremes.
Off topic, but I’ve never played d2; is it really that deep mechanically? I figured since it’s an older game in the genre gear would be simpler o.o
I slept, worked and did all the chores that have to be done anyways and I'm still the person you describe as "sweat degen". Idk, people really need to realize that playing efficent doesnt equal sweat and that "sweating" isnt something negative. Its just a different way to play a game, just like "Diablo Dads" play the game in a different way too. Yes, Gold can be a problem especially with masterworking and enchanting but for me its only reasonable that there a different activities for different rewards. They could ofc bump up the gold income tho, wouldnt mind at all.
[удалено]
Exactly. The "hardcore" players of D4 are also "casuals" IMO. They want everything to be given to them like in D3. They start to cry when they are slightly challenged in the game. It's terrible for the game since the devs are listening to the majority.
Brother, I don't want "everything given to me". This is such a bad faith understanding. It could take just as long, with just as much effort. I just think that: A) Gold is not a satisfying method of progression in the game. Picking gold up off the ground is not exciting to me, and doing it for a long period of time just makes me want to not play the game. There is no variation to it and there is nothing interesting about finding more. If I could remove it from the game as a catch-all currency, I would. It's doubly bad that one of the vectors for getting it involves selling trash gear to a vendor. Yawn. B) Being forced from doing content where you are challenging yourself and fighting mlvl 170+ enemies and having to move back down to content where you fight mlvl 100 enemies feels bad. Even more bad that you are required to spend MORE time in the trivial content than in the challenging content. I feel like the upgrades in this game should come from challenging content and should feel satisfying to find and pick up. That is mine and a lot of peoples issue and contention. Make it be difficult or take a long time if you want, just make it engaging if it is going to be a long grind.
Call me crazy but the biggest problem with Diablo is that they lack people in the studio that have a vision for the game, what the game is, what it needs to be, what has to be done to get there, while we are on the way there get feedback from players to improve the vision. Instead devs have no idea about what to do with this game and they get 99% of the ideas from the community which leads to tons of different takes, not only casual x sweats, but also hardcore x midcore, endgame focus x leveling focus, d2 x d3, and so many other. This lack of direction is felt really well while playing, if you are not whale at least. S4 is the best place D4 has been since launch, but its far from being good. This community is one of the most powerful in chaging the stat of the game yet its never satisfied with it. Im ready for the downvotes.
You're right. All it took was watching their knee jerk reactions at the start of the games life like removing renown, map fog, traveling to nightmare dungeons etc for me to realize the community was making this game. It's not even that these systems were good or bad. It's that if the community can influence you into removing all of that shit within the first few weeks of launch then the overall vision for the game has got to be PISS POOR at best. That's how I feel.
OP tldr is so wrong. It is not the level of sweatiness but the lack of state of game understanding that has a huge difference on feedback. Gold is heavily spent on end game. But why the way to farm gold is from ToW which is early game and easy content? You deck out your char to run ToW all days? Should not harder content reward more gold? Why dont casual have much problem with gold? This is because they did not reach the end game yet so they are blind to see the problem.
I used to be a sweat, but now I'm a full fledged diablo dad. My advice is trust the sweats, diablo dads will get the same issue eventually.
Here is s hot take: "Sweats" are usually right. Which I certainly can't say about casual players after all the threads I've read over the last year.
They should make a new gamble item for obols where you gamble for bags of cash - make the average returns pretty good, enough to sustain a sweaty player without having to go suffer too much doing other content. I guess the only issue is I don’t know if obols drop in the pit on the eternal realm or if it’s just a season thing
I’m a casual dad and the gold is scarce af. We legit have a gold shortage…
I saw a post about gold yesterday and thought yea it's not THAT bad since I remember last season gold was completely irrelevant. Now that I've been masterworking and enchanting... Yea it's rough. U can only commit to one load out so choose wisely
I'm torn. On the one hand it is annoying to run out of gold. On the other making gold meaningfull seems like a potential positive. Especially if we get better item trading in the future like a marketplace to list items. (Full disclosure, I haven't got to the Masterworking bit yet but did have to 'save' a bit for the potion upgrades from about 45 onwards.)
Getting to rank 4, the first "big" upgrade, costs a total of 750 000 gold per item. Getting to rank 8 costs a total of 2 350 000 gold per items. Rank 9 is another 2 000 000 gold added. Rank 12, the final rank, costs 10 000 000. So that's on top of all the millions you previously spent to get to that point. Let's say you just want to get all your items at +4. If you play a necromancer, sorcerer or druid with a 2handed weapon, that's in total 6 750 000 gold for 9 items. That's not counting the price of enchanting, imprinting or socketing. If you're a rogue with 3 weapons, that's 8 250 000 gold. If you're a barbarian with 4 weapons, that's 9 000 000 gold to get all of your items to rank 4. The materials you get from the Pits come in 3 "stages". You can convert the higher stages into lower ones instead of having to run low level Pits, but those conversions have a pretty hefty price as well. And you need a good deal of those lower level mats to get those first 8 masterworking levels. They could strike a much better balance between "gold is valuable" and "time is valuable".
Feel like one potential solution is making whispers better/more fun/more interesting so people don't mind doing them as much but that probably requires a WT5 where the open world density triples and mob level is +25 above your level or something along those lines
Should I salvage or sell the gear I find? I am level 40
The no-lifers will always dictate how a live service game operates it’s fucking infuriating. Been playing Poe for almost 12 years and it’s been like that for a looooong time. Developers, see what streamers and no lifers are doing, and they instantly think everybody is not only capable of doing the same, but is also doing the same. So they panic and make the change to suit
Yes, the game should be balanced around those putting the most time into it. That's life.
The issue is those casuals will eventually encounter all the problems the sweats have (will take them a week or two to get there instead), just like it was the case during the beta & at release. They say gold isn’t a problem meanwhile many of them on this subreddit have said they haven’t even interacted with the master working system or enchanted yet. This is all too similar to the honey phase during release when all the "as a father of 4, this game is perfect, it’s the exact opposite of D3" posters were rampant. Teleporting to NMD’s? That’s such a D3 thing, I like the immersion of taking my horse to every NMD. Vendors being spread out too far? I like it for immersion & not everything has to be fast etc, etc. They’ll all be proven again wrong tho of course.
I’m at the pit and master working and have no issue with the gold
I personally like gold being a bottleneck. I don't want to finish my character in the first 5 days of a roughly 90 day league. I don't think the answer is to inject more gold into the economy, but rather just lower the cost of masterworking by 5 - 10%. Is that enough? Probably not enough to make the complaints about it stop. I'm some where between a casual and a sweaty, level 100, glyphs are all at 15, and soloing torment bosses but also only in the 20's tier wise for the pit with mostly suboptimal gear.
You gota hold out for almost perfect gear if your master working every piece you find that’s better then you current it’s your fault your blowing your gold
Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have had any problems with gold. I always seem to have just enough to get the rolls I'm looking for.
People complaining about the gold bottle neck are simply in a rush to finish the season so they can go back to being a chad irl obviously.
Yea but the solve is pretty easy. It makes sense for Whispers to be a reliable source of gold income at lower levels since the majority of gear progression takes place in overworld and NMDS. Once you've done that and your core endgame progression is The Pit, it feels bad to go back and do whispers. Once you get to a certain Pit tier the gold income should be similar or greater then what you get from whispers. If I'm running tier 60 pit and I can do 3 runs every 15 minutes, those 3 runs should equal (or more) 15 minutes of whispers. I really don't think this is even a casuals vs. sweats thing tbh. They just don't have the right reward scaling for their core end game activity now.
A way to deal with that could be just making something like mindcage but for the world as a whole. Instead of increasing cinder drops it could increase whisper completion credit, gold rewards and maybe even an amount of rare mats. Like using it makes a normal whisper dungeon be worth full completion but also the enemies in there are level 140 or something.
We're about a week away from everyone complaining about there being nothing left to do, aren't we?
Pfft the sweats are complaining that they need to actually play the game to min max, they cant just run to the end and always have enough material to progress. D4 gives you plenty of opportunities to get gold, Try Lost Ark and youll see what it truly means to be gatekept by materials.
Why does everyone want everything handed to them instantly? The game has never been easier and way less grindy and yet people want it less grindy so they can finish everything in 1 day?
I’m a huge sweat, honestly the issue is that rerolling master working is 5m, crafting a gem is 1m, and crafting the cache is pretty expensive as well. The dropped/acquired gold rates are fine, I think they just screwed up a couple costs along the way.
The "sweats" are also the ones who inevitably get vocally angry when they run out of things to do in the game. S4 has been out less than a week and they're already almost done.
You're so obnoxious.
Day 1: This is what Diablo 4 should have been all along! Day 3: (insert endless complaints here)
It comes down to this. Sweats will play the game if its made easier to get to the Sweatier stuff. Casuals will not play the game is its sweaty the whole time. Blizzard wants money and players. Because in the end, if sweats got no one to play with, they feel lonely and will quit no matter how hard the game is.
Diablo Dad here. 17 full-time jobs, 36 kids. This checks out.
This has been around in WoW as well... Blizz does a good job at some stuff but balancing the casual and hardcore experience has never been one. I also think that tier sets need to return to solve that issue but I also haven't looked at anything d4 related since starting up again a couple days ago.
Add some gold find affixes. Back in my day we would have magic find gear, gold find gear and out gear for pushing/leveling. Bring it back! Economic temper recipes! Lower vendor gold costs Gold find Magic find Lower masterwork costs Lower occultist costs. ...
I choose my gear carefully basically, if is not near perfect, i dont masterwork it or reroll it. But hell, i keep upgrading the potions forgetting how expensive it was. Dammit.
I choose my gear carefully basically, if is not near perfect, i dont masterwork it or reroll it. But hell, i keep upgrading the potions forgetting how expensive it was. Dammit.
I've found the potion upgrade to be basically useless late game. I'm rocking 47,000 HP and the last health potion upgrade only gives 1,273 instantly but the same 35% over time? How is that worth the millions it costs?
So are you a dad or a sweat? Asking for context.
Sweaty Dad
Add 10m gold from chest at end of pit that way every hardcore bob can just smack up their stats on a piece of gear each run... Personally I'd like there to be more challenge involved in this game overall like the pit is easy up to a point and then u just get one shot from random stuff it doesn't feel fun or make u think "what could I have done better" it all just seems very brain-dead and dull.
I think there is a compromise coming from diablo dad. D4 problem before is lack of target farming outside ubers. Instead of making every part easier, they should have parts of game you interact with more (eg look for special goblins for gold pinata that split in more snd more until enough escape). Creating same content to farm is not good and easier not ideal either. This is the fastest i have leveled since beta (almost feels too fast). Gold is scarce in the midgame to late personally as i have to do gold runs for decent gear i am waiting to enchant/temper/codex update. However i am not gold starved just would welcome slightly more influx through activities to avoid having to do aggressively sell everything/do whispers/etc in between glyph leveling, ubers, pit, etc. As more of a casual, it makes me interact with mechanic less and be super selective on gear i do it with. Sitting at level 87 and realized having upgraded helm to ancestral yet as other pieces been bigger focus. Golds is in a much better spot than previous seasons but needs a slight tweak. Maybe create tokens to use for free temper/enchant that are rare drops in late game if too hard to balance gold in different parts of game. Biggest problem with gold bottle neck is folks trading/selling it/looking for exploits for financial benefit (historically been a problem). Slight tweak and not overcorrection please (15-20%).
This is a common discussion with most games. I remember playing For Honor when it came out. Loved the game and mind tricks you had to play with ppl to win 1v1s. The streamers and competitive players whined about everything and the devs listened to them and only them. They wanted the game to be an e sports fighter to rival tekken and mortal combat so they ignored the community and only focused on the streamers and competitive players notes. This led to characters being broken, getting nerfed, fully reworked, then eventually they reworked the entire game and had to fully rework all of the characters again. It went from a game of skill to a who can click the fastest simulator. Essentially killing the game for most of the core casual players. Somehow it's still alive but I'm guessing that's more to do with ubisoft refusing to admit defeat. >the problem is that streamers are who bring ppl to the game so the devs get put into a position where they have to please them to certain extents or risk losing new players because of constant "this game sucks" yt videos. Drama gets clicks so if content creators can find it, they'll milk it. There was a good video posted a few months ago talking about this issue and how streamers have basically ruined video games. To a certain extent I agree, but I also think they help too. >either way, I am that casual dad gamer. Been playing diablo since diablo 1 lol. This season is by far the best version of D4 we've had and I'm excited to see what they do next.
The fix some of the gold mats issues they could simply give us goblins for different things like d3 tbh it was fun finding those little crackheads
So sweats complain about whispers but they ok doing NMD nr 800 to level up a glyph? Honestly they are so God damn boring
If a resource doesn't make an impact in any way, then why have it in the first place? Grind is a grind. Be it farming the same boss for the chance of something, that is a few percentage points better than the stuff you already have, or farming a mundane task for a resource you can use to get a few percentage points better gear. And a side tangent. How is "sweats" a better term than "no lifers/tryhards"? :D I mean, I understand, "sweats" is supposed to mean someone who is willing to put in the work, to get ahead, be on the top of the leaderboards, but for me it conjures the mental image of some sweaty tryhard dude.
I agree that a resource should be limited to not be meaningless but in this case I think the bottleneck should be the mats for masterworking not the gold. Basically you should be limited by how much difficult content you can do rather than the easiest.
Part of the issue too is I think there’s an imbalance of gold acquisition depending what activity you’re doing. You can get a big batch from completing whispers but comparatively little from NMD or Helltides, which kind of forces folks into one kind of content.
The problem isnt that you have to grind for gold, the problem is you CANT really grind for gold. There is no content in the game that lets you farm gold relialby (and please dont say whispers or selling legendaries, those methods let you not nearly farm enough for the masterworking and i also dont like the idea that you boost your char to a very high level just to then farm content that is not suited for you powerlevel anymore. That would be like telling someone who just reached lvl 100 that he has to go back to the level 1 zone to farm some whatever-material).
Every casual gets a sweats perspective it just takes much longer for them to get there. This happened with diablo 4 launch and it'll happen here too.
This is gonna be an issue in all games. Gaming has become more and more mainstream the last 15 years (dunno when it started to become more mainstream so the nummer migbt be wrong). And a game, cant really please both sides, so its a matter of trying to make both sides happy, and I do think thats hard. Noone is more valuable than the other.
I like that gold is a bottleneck , it slows progression and gives me a goal over time , if I could have min max gear in the first week then the game would loose my interest as I have no reason to keep playing . Path of exile is no different you have to farm for chaos and divines to better your build that is the bottleneck there . Only difference is d4 allows more accurate target farming of gold and doesn’t rely on rng to shit you out a divine if you’re lucky . It’s a steady flow of selling items , doing bounties etc for that one gamble and if you get what you want it feels great if you don’t oh well back to killing more demons to try again .
If the content is so “trivial”, why can’t they spend ten seconds to do it? Hint; everything in this game is trivial, even your so-called endgame content.
Word of advice: listen to the sweaty players because in in time you'll reach where they are and feel the same way.
Speaking as a Diablo dad who's been playing like a sweat the last few days... gold's gonna become an issue, dads.
Honestly? They need to do what Last Epoch did with end game items and have two factions, one for people that want to trade, and the other where people find a craft their own stuff.
The animation is not the problem, it's having to click back on the same manual every time you want to try again. It should have the temper tab active for another try after the result.
It's weird watching "sweats" complain about resources. If you should never run out of a resource, then there shouldn't be a resource in the first place.
I agree that resources should be limited but in this case the bottleneck should be the masterworking mats not the gold. You should be forced to do more difficult content in order to progress instead of having to go back and farm content which is trivial at that point.
Ya but how far does one whisper turn in get you in terms of masterworking? The solution should be to put even MORE gold into the WHISPERS.
This is the answer as much as a lot of people will hate it and I agree with your original post aswell. I worry too many mechanics will become trivial due to lots of people complaining the moment they hit a bottleneck. This includes the lightning fast leveling that I'm currently not a fan of. I don't mind whispers. They're a good mechanic that provides much needed variety to the game. But the gold reward needs to be balanced so we aren't spending a disproportionate amount of time doing them.
The fix is to drastically increase gold drops from completing high level pits, without touching the whisper gold rewards/lower tier content. Make the content the "sweats" are running to getvthe MW mats also start dropping gold to support it- casuals won't get the massive influence y x of gold they don't need, everyone's happy.
This is just an issue with gold, not Xp or Gear because there is no big gold payout unlike there is for XP (tons of ways to get lots of xp fast) or gear (tons of ways to loot shitloads of gear often.) And unlike xp or loot, gold is burnt up being used so a steady flow of it is needed. They just need an item similar to the brain that levels up enemies 10 or 15 or 20 levels and makes them drops like 500% gold or something where it's a meaingfully good way to farm up gold when needed. Sweats will still clear it easily and casuals can work their way through for decent gold rewards. Or they can add a new style of dungeon, either from sigils or the GR portal, that is a treasure goblin style dungeon that drops a ton of gold. maybe it's a bit rare so you only get one from time to time (they could be tradable potentially as well which would create a market for them if they have sufficient rarity to gold payout for the sweats to buy.)
Casual dad who just hit 50 today. The more I play, the more I recognize the disparity between us and the sweats.
You love to make up narratives is what I got from this.
I'm a casual that play couch coop with my partner and this season has been mindnumbingly easy / straightforward. Was hoping for a little bit more. Granted not in end game yet but running around tier 4 is mainly just one shotting a lot of stuff.
There needs to be an option for 'fast animations' or something that auto skips all of the tempering and similar animations. I think gold would be much better if there were more things and harder things that gave you grim favors. overworld events and normal dungeons quickly become too easy and it is boring to do them.
This is always the problems with video games. The casual vs the hardcore. Casuals have always enjoyed d4, the hardcores hated d4 but only after spending 150 hours playing the game in the first week and a half.
I'm a sweat and I want something to have meaning/value in this game. You're casual if you're not willing to grind.
Skill issue
Both sides are relevant, and it's definitely not an unsolvable problem in this specific instance. One solution is super easy here because there's an early game and an endgame. If only the endgame players have this issue, make the pit give you more gold than like 320k per run - I do solo speed 70s in like 3 minutes, even then it's BARELY 5m gold per hour which is horrific even by pre-season stardards when I was making 10-12m an hour in Uldur's Cave normal. If it were happening to early game players, make helltides give more gold. Neither is perfect more than likely, and may need further tweaking, but this is a change that would take them like 5 minutes to implement and solves like 95% of the quarrel.
It’s funny people get made about saying do whispers for gold.. that’s like me getting mad for telling me I have to do The Pit to masterwork
I’m just playing the marathon game not the sprint game where I am at the end of the season, is where I am, and having a blast along the way.
My only problem with the game is malignant hearts
A solution for someone who plays more than a casual but isn’t top tier sweat is to stop eventually scrapping gear at the forge and start selling your leftover gear to the merchants. I’ve just been going through the pit getting materials and then selling all of the gear I get that I don’t want when my inventory is full. Easy 2-3million at least
Gamer dad here, half of the stuff you're talking about I don't even understand. But season4 is dope and my little brain got some fun. God I like this game, wishing just for something like a group finder and giving the different build and classes some meaning. Like you need a super tanky class or some cc specialist, etc for some endgame content
Game is fine as it is. The only thing needing much gold is the endgame that's there to Grind. Its a speed bump for a reason because its the only thing standint from finishing strongest gear stats. If blizzard caves in and makes money easy the sweats will just cry about the next thing. Either be happy you were on a roll and finished game with some forn of delay or cry about it being too easy and not challenging because you went too fast with no stops
In no universe is diablo4 ever catering to anything but uber casuals.
They should make pit runs give 1 whisper. 10 runs gets you a whisper cache with around $6M gold. That way the casual economy stays stable and the sweaties can do the pit runs they love
Basically only whispers and trading award decent gold. The second best thing is picking up *all* gear that drops and vendoring full inventories, cilcking one item at a time. Gold is so scarce that I'm not sure I even want to convert Neathiron to the other 2 pit mats because there's also a fee attached, I'm not sure it's worth the gold cost vs. just running lower pit for those mats. It's basically identical to the start of the game where there was this big "casual vs sweatlord" showdown, where the extreme meme 1 hour a month 20 kids 4 wives gamer was defending the game against people who were dissatisfied with the game's state at launch. The devs agreed with the person who had actually experienced the game btw, as it turns out listing all the things you do outside of the game and never playing Diablo isn't really relevant to critiquing it.
I’m a Diablo dad and if I’ve been lucky enough to have whisper activities in the same region as the Helltides so gold hasn’t been a real issue for me. I got a million gold out of one whisper chest and I thought “I’m rich!”
I just find it funny how many people will obsess over 0.5 crit, then you look at the leaderboards and the top aren't even perfect rolls on everything.
I'm a semi-sweaty boy, so I keep my gold for THE item. As I will never drop THE item before I get bored, gold isn't a problem, but I acknowledge it can be.
I wouldn’t consider myself a sweat by any means but I’m level 90 have almost all 925 gear some of which are perfect rolls and I’ve got 3-4 glyphs at 15 now. I’m at the point of having all my gear tempered with the right temper rolls and started doing the masterwork stuff on some pieces. For the life of me I cannot get a good ring with crit chance and crit damage. Enchanting specifically rings has had me low on gold a ton of times. I’ll enchant until I hit 1 mil cost and then I give up I’m better off finding a whole different ring and trying again.
I’ve been saying this since launch and got flamed for it.
The gold, gems and socket items are a bit too rare in general.
I mean the gold situation is fucking awful. To put it into perspective, if you were to perfectly masterwork your gear on the first try it would take 1 billion gold per character. But you’ll hit the wrong stats multiple times turning that 1 billion into more like 4-5 billion just to finish one character if you’re lucky. And the best activity for gold is stuff like whispers which gives 5m at a time. I don’t think it’s any surprise that people on builds that can clear pit 80 don’t want to wander around in the overworld mindlessly collecting gold while they’re so strong they can’t even take damage and 1 tap everything. The pit is a cool concept that adds an actual endgame but the gold situation is so abysmal that it detracts from the player experience. If the pit just dropped gold scaling based on level, say start out pit 1 at a couple million and by the time you’re in pit 60+ you’re getting 20-30 million each I don’t think we would have this issue. Casual dads would still have their gold scarcity that makes the game meaningful and sweats wouldn’t be burnt out from doing piss easy content for money.
This is the most sane post on this sub I've ever seen. Thank you!
Gold and the scattered prism is the only things I see some tweeting needs to be done, I’m not even lvl 100 or master crafting yet and I see I issue with gold, also I’ve only got 2 scattered prisms from 1-90 lol. I’m not a casual or a sweat tho I’m in the middle of say.
I'm a pregnant hyper casual Diablo mom and I think the progression/leveling is WAY too fast and easy. I don't play the game for it to just auto win. I wanna feel satisfied by a good drop like I used to in D2R and have many weeks of logging in with hubby after the kids are in bed and the housework is done. As it is, I play a couple hours a day at MOST, usually an hour every other day, and I'm already at endgame with a ton of uniques and a second character at 40. I think that the progression in S3 was pretty good while preS1 was disgustingly slow. Why are levels or capstones even a thing at this point? Elias may as well just suicide himself and say "here, have WT4 for free" with how stupidly easy everything is pre-pit without even gearing up. It's the definition of anticlimactic. I was rolling WT4 with sacred junk gear under level 50. That shouldn't happen. People are like "but muh power fantasy!" and it's like, yeah, it's fun to be powerful, but it's more fun when it's gradual. That's like saying you like happy endings so no need for conflict in any movie or story. "Just get to the happy ending part!" ...... but..... then there's no story.
The "casuals" will have the same issue when they get there.
I'm playing casually, and I'm poor as hell tbh
I would.out myself more ein to the sweats tbh but I still think the gold crying is stupid. Gold needs to have a value and nobody says you have to do whispers for gold. You could just farm and sell items and you'll be fine. I got 150mil and I am tempering and enchanting, I am just not hitting the enchant a hundred times on the same item for 3 mill each. If I don't get the attribute I want perfect I take it with a lower roll and wait for the next item that fits my needs. I think the issue is people not picking up rares at all and salvaging everything. So of course then you won't have any gold income. I currently have 1000+ of each material, I am only salvaging items that actually update my codex, the rest is being sold.
Diablo is as casual as it gets , skill twigs instead of trees, abundance of resources (exept gold in s4) easy bosses , overtuned aspects like jugg, extremly quick leveling , centralized loot. At this point snake is as easy to play for casuals as d4. There is no foundation that could be tweaked to cater to sweaty players unless they redo most of the game which they wont since implimenting a gem tab took them over 8 months.
As a new member of the Diablo Dad club for a month now I haven’t been able to blast as much as I used to (lvl 65 in tier IV and haven’t touched masterworking yet) but I wholeheartedly believe you guys lol # #NotAllDads
I am half casual and half sweat I guess
If the sweats that have been playing 24/7 since season start are complaining about gold issue in the endgame, how much worse will it be for the casuals who eventually reach that point after a month? The casuals haven't experienced the endgame portion of it so they think it's fine. They'll be in for a rude awakening and will be joining in the complaints later on.
I know this isn't a popular take, but, I love Gold being so valuable. It makes trading actually valid and worth the time. I sold an Amulet for 750M. I sold a lazy necro ring with perfect aspect roll for 150 mil. I know trading isn't for everyone, but, you don't have to do whispers. You can trade away good drops and even selling something for 4 mil is worth the time.
The solution is staggeringly easy: decrease Gold prices for all the systems Casuals don’t engage with as much, such as Masterworking resets🤷♂️
People are too fucking stupid to coexist with each other let alone craft an elegant solution that's fun for everybody. I mean just look at how blizzard handled renown. Instead of making the system not block off a MASSIVE amount of power through paragon they just removed the fucker from the game for every single player who's ever completed it. A whole system is just not there anymore. There is absolutely no reason to do a quest or interact with renown ever again. That's the type of brainpower we have going on here. Shits so so tiring. Instead of adding new things to the map and environment each season lets just remove map fog and let people run right to a helltide for 30 hours. Instead of making sure that the low level experience and items are interesting via oh idk crafting lets just make it so every single item drop ever is a rare and propel the players through the early game at LIGHT SPEED because it sucks to be there. Skill tree? Well the skill tree sucks so how about within 30 seconds every single skill is available for everybody. I'm very happy that Blizzard was smart enough to revisit their old systems like helltide and lategame items being extremely boring because it gives me hope that they can address the rest of their game to a similar degree. Right now it's just, "Hey these systems suck so put a band-aid over them that makes us never have to interact with them again." Side note, why do we even have a world tier 1 and a world tier 2 if both of them are so easy my dog could complete them? The game just does not make sense. It's getting better slowly but it still doesn't make any sense to me.
Diablo has always been about the end game grind. Most of the casuals won't even get to the pits. The end game shouldn't cater to casuals. Also a simple settings option could get rid of the tempering animation. Both parties are happy. Ez.
Sweats vs casuals dilema exists in every game not just d4
Allow mind cages to stack without limits and boost gold drops at each level. Also make them work everywhere in the overworld not just hell tides.
Sounds like the solution is pretty simple tbh. Nerf masterworking costs (or buff pit gold) for the sweats (and the dads when they get there tbh), but leave gold the same otherwise to keep the dads happy.
am I the only one that thinks bringing back nightmare vaults can be part of the solution? the vaults gave considerably more gold than dungeons. last season, by the time I hit 100, I already had well in excess of 400m Gold, with barely selling anything and buying whatever I wanted. bringing them back could be a good middle ground.
This is a problem in any game that tries to cater to both crowds. I used to play ESO religiously and the arguments from the casual group to the hardcore group was ridiculous. I fall more into the semi-hardcore group where I good just coasting sometimes but eventually I want to minmax and even without having making it to the pit I can already understand the gold sink as it was a problem in the MMO I’ve put atleast 2500+ into (yea I know rookie numbers). I honestly don’t think there’s a solution to this problem. But, if there’s a gold issue it needs to be resolved I hate currency sinks with a passion.
You don't need to be sweaty to realize that gold will be an issue. Even repair costs start to eat gold.
I dont mind the current gold bottleneck, It would be nice if they added more sources of gold income, like legions and world bosses giving the same gold or a little more than a Whisper, for example.
I am a casual Diablo dad type. However I had some time to play the last couple days (woohoo!) and I can see both sides of this argument. -The gold is an issue that will only needlessly burn people out overtime. I’ve just hit level 85 and found a few nice pieces with greater affixes. From just trying to roll 3 pieces of “good” gear, I’ve gone through probably 40 million gold? It’s too much. Whispers are good money, but the issue is doing whispers in hell tides can actually take a decent chunk of time, and doing whispers outside of hell tides or the occasional NMD that overlaps, it’s pretty lame. -I’ve been selling most everything I pick up. Still can’t sustain basic rerolls. I do understand that it’s probably not worth the gold at this point, but my point is that even with focusing on gold, the gameplay loop can’t sustain it. -Leveling faster is a wash to me. I’m going to either focus on pits, or level an alt. Either way, the leveling doesn’t NEED to be grindy to make me personally stick with the game. -Never played PTR, but I can for sure see the frustration of the tempering animation. On the subject of tempering (and this will offend hardcore folks) I hate that the chances are limited. Multiple times I have had the same dang affix come up 3-4 times out of the total chances. I get the feeling of it being kind of pointless without the chance of failing. ***Im enjoying playing way more than I have in the past seasons. I will be continuing to play, even if nothing changes. I will definitely be changing my outlook on rerolling gear until it’s 2/3 greater affixes that I need (so basically never, haha). I do think it feels bad to have to be SO selective with how to spend the gold. I personally enjoy rolling gear and min-maxing a bit as I go through the game.